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Mini: I'm Sorry, But... · Why We Do What We Do

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: You're listening to Why we do what we do. Welcome
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: to Why we do what we do Mini. I am
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: your host Abraham and I'm Shane. We are a psychology podcast.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: We talk about all of the things that people do
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: weird or popular or otherwise. And on Mondays we do
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: these bite size, sort of short dives into a specific
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: little topic and then we get out of there. It's
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: a nice sort of ten clean, ten to fifteen minutes
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: on the subject.
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: Yes, and so today we are going to talk about
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  Speaker 2: but not butts, but butt exactly.
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: And if you're joining us for the first time, welcome.
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: We are so glad to have you here. If you
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: like what you hear today, you can support us by
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: picking up some merch joining us on Patreon, leaving a
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: reading and review, liking and subscribing, and telling a friend.
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: And now will talk a little bit more about that
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: toward the end of this discussion. But we're talking about
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: but today and the word butt and some coaching that
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  Speaker 1: people get around the use or not use of this word.
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  Speaker 1: And there are about a million resources anywhere that you
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  Speaker 1: look that are trying to coach people on better communication.
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  Speaker 1: More broadly speaking, we're not one of those no, but
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  Speaker 1: we have some things to add to some of the conversation,
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  Speaker 1: and specifically taking a sort of critical lens to one
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  Speaker 1: particular philosophy that some have been espousing here.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, so there's a well intentioned effort to support communication
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  Speaker 2: by coaching people away from using the conjunction, but particularly
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  Speaker 2: in a sensitive relationship discourse like you have to give
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  Speaker 2: somebody feedback, or that you are maybe trying to have
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  Speaker 2: maybe some reconciliatory conversations, whatever it might be, you want
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: to avoid the word. But because ultimately it's supposed to
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  Speaker 2: what de incentivize, it's like basically like undo whatever it
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: was you were trying to say.
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. The common argument is that the word butt
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  Speaker 1: negates whatever came before it. For example, I love you,
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  Speaker 1: but I need some time alone. Right now, that's like
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  Speaker 1: an example of what someone might say that I love
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  Speaker 1: you butt, and then they give something, and the guidance
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  Speaker 1: issued here states that the button negates the I love
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  Speaker 1: you part. So you're saying I love you, but I
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: need some time alone. Essentially it undoes the first thing
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  Speaker 1: you said, which was I love you. It sort of
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  Speaker 1: negates it.
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  Speaker 2: Right, And so apologies come with the same red flag warning,
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  Speaker 2: I'm sorry, but that's not what I want right now.
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  Speaker 2: And again the wisdom suggests that button negates whatever came
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  Speaker 2: before it, so you're not really sorry. You just are
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  Speaker 2: saying you're advocating for yourself, but not actually apologetic about
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  Speaker 2: whatever it is you're sorry for. Now.
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  Speaker 1: They always focus on the word butt. I have actually
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  Speaker 1: not seen them issue any proclamations or have any other
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  Speaker 1: problems with the other coordinating conjunctions that also offer a
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  Speaker 1: contrasting idea. So you could say, however, instead of butt,
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: you could say yet, or although there are other things
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  Speaker 1: that are coordinating conjunctions grammatically that you can say that
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  Speaker 1: present a contrasting idea, They don't seem to have a
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  Speaker 1: problem with those in their recommendations.
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  Speaker 2: Here, just to be needlessly pedantic, No, it doesn't. It
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  Speaker 2: doesn't negate those things all the time. So if I
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  Speaker 2: said it's raining outside, but I brought it umbrella so
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  Speaker 2: I won't get wet, suddenly it's not raining because I
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  Speaker 2: said butt, No, that's not what's happening. Or I was
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  Speaker 2: running late, but I managed to get all the green lights,
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  Speaker 2: so I wasn't running late. It doesn't really make any
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  Speaker 2: sense to say that butts always negate the first part
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  Speaker 2: of that statement.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, just grammatically, that's not how it works. Logically,
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  Speaker 1: it doesn't really make sense. And also here you can
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  Speaker 1: just flip the orientation to have the negative part go
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  Speaker 1: first and then still use the word butt, and we'll
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  Speaker 1: see how what a difference that can make. So let's
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  Speaker 1: take the one I said that I love you button.
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  Speaker 1: I'm just gonna flip it around. I need some time
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  Speaker 1: I'm alone right now, but I still love you. Is
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  Speaker 1: there a slightly different effect? Yeah, I think so, right
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  Speaker 1: like it does. It does have a slightly different message,
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  Speaker 1: I need some time alone right now, but I still
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  Speaker 1: love you. Okay, So it seems like the butt is
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  Speaker 1: actually helping in this case. It's maybe conveying a different
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  Speaker 1: meaning here or the same thing, like that's not what
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  Speaker 1: I want right now, but I'm sorry. And so if
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  Speaker 1: you just flip the order of it, all of a sudden,
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  Speaker 1: the butt seems like it's sort of doing an important job.
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  Speaker 1: That's maybe in line with what these people who are
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  Speaker 1: doing the coaching against using butt or saying, or we
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  Speaker 1: can apply their logic and say I need some time
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  Speaker 1: alone right now, but I still love you. Does the
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  Speaker 1: button now mean I don't need time alone, so that
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  Speaker 1: doesn't matter anymore. Like, right, that's not what I write
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  Speaker 1: I want right now, but I'm sorry, so that is
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  Speaker 1: what I want right now? Like does the button to
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  Speaker 1: gate that thing?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's kind of like we say, like,
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: we love that you're listening to the show, but.
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: We need to do ads.
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  Speaker 2: We still love you, but the ads have to come anyway.
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: So it's really important to remember that words matter, but
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  Speaker 2: but how we use and interpret them is what makes
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  Speaker 2: them matter, but does not inherently serve any particular function
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  Speaker 2: for everyone. Whether you interpret that to mean and it
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  Speaker 2: gates things before it serves some other more nuanced function,
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  Speaker 2: as it will for most people, it will depend on
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  Speaker 2: your experience and orientation to that word. The inflection of
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  Speaker 2: how you say it can do just as much or
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  Speaker 2: more communication than the word itself. You could say but
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  Speaker 2: or but or but or but Like if I said
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  Speaker 2: something like this, right, I said I need some time
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  Speaker 2: alone right now, but I still love you. That doesn't
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  Speaker 2: seem authentic, right, So, Like it's really important to know
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  Speaker 2: that inflection is also one of the critical features of
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: communication when you are communicating to anybody, especially in important conversations.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, it can carry a lot like it's just saying
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  Speaker 1: like but really subtly or saying but like that right,
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  Speaker 1: will have a different function for your audience in terms
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  Speaker 1: of what they hear and what you're communicating with that word.
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  Speaker 1: So grammatically, it does not negate everything before it. It
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  Speaker 1: can be dismantled just by changing the order of the sentence.
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  Speaker 1: And it's not psychologically accurate to make this claim about
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  Speaker 1: this word, but we shall continue here.
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and the alternative they recommend using and in place
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  Speaker 2: of butt, and so let's apply that to our previous examples.
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: I love you and I need some time alone or
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  Speaker 2: I'm sorry and that's not what I want right now.
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I personally do think that this feels different to
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: say and to say and here and in these spaces.
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: But again, see how functional that is my use of
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  Speaker 1: butt right there, and how we've been using in this episode.
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  Speaker 1: It's so useful to offer a nice intelligible segue to
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  Speaker 1: the next thing you're going to say, with like a
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  Speaker 1: slight contrasting sort of theme to it, and the word
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  Speaker 1: and does feel different. But having had the experience of
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: being in an environment in which everyone like this happens
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  Speaker 1: to me. I was in an environment where sort of
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  Speaker 1: most people or almost everyone took on saying and instead
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  Speaker 1: of butt. But again it's how it's being used. What
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  Speaker 1: I started to hear was I started to hear but
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  Speaker 1: when people were saying and and not that I heard
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  Speaker 1: those words, but like that's what that started to mean.
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  Speaker 1: They'd say and, and I would hear a contrasting idea.
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  Speaker 1: And what I mean here is that when people say
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  Speaker 1: and instead of butt, you start interpreting and to mean
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  Speaker 1: the same thing as butt and less of what and
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  Speaker 1: used to mean, because you're using and to present a
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  Speaker 1: contrasting idea. There's nothing magical about the word and it
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  Speaker 1: doesn't do anything. We typically use it to coordinate things
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  Speaker 1: that are alike, and in these spaces we can start
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  Speaker 1: to use and and it starts to present in a
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  Speaker 1: way that is contrasting ideas. It'll just start to mean
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  Speaker 1: the same thing as butt.
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  Speaker 2: Right, And it comes down to how you use it
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  Speaker 2: and the function it serves. If you're using and presenting
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  Speaker 2: a contrasting idea, then the word and starts to mean
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  Speaker 2: what the word butt means. This also has the issue
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  Speaker 2: that if you have been told that butt negates what
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  Speaker 2: came before it, and you believe that but can start
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  Speaker 2: to serve that function for you, even if it didn't
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  Speaker 2: necessarily do that before. That is, people can learn to
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  Speaker 2: respond to butt in the way warned against by the
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  Speaker 2: classic wisdom, like a self fulfilling prophecy of sorts, because
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  Speaker 2: of that rule and not because of the properties of
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  Speaker 2: the word. So effectively, what happens is, you know, you
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  Speaker 2: start to learn that butt and and mean the same thing.
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  Speaker 2: You start to learn new relations with that word. There's
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  Speaker 2: a stimulus function change, right, Like that word butt changes
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  Speaker 2: into something entirely different than it meant before, based on
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  Speaker 2: your learning experience and based on rules that people give
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  Speaker 2: you exactly right.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, So to be charitable, you know the authors here,
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  Speaker 1: they're the suggestions. They argue, is that but is essentially
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  Speaker 1: obfuscating real meaning and communication. That is, that people say
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  Speaker 1: but to avoid saying in what they really should say.
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  Speaker 1: So in the instance of I love you, butt, but
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  Speaker 1: I need some time alone, maybe what that person's really
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  Speaker 1: trying to say is this relationship isn't working for me,
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  Speaker 1: and I need to end or at least pause this relationship.
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  Speaker 1: I also need you to know that I still really
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  Speaker 1: care about you or insert whatever lands for you here.
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  Speaker 1: You get what I'm meaning, The point being that, like
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  Speaker 1: I get what the authors are trying to suggest, is
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  Speaker 1: they're trying to say, like, let's try this alternative form
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  Speaker 1: of communication, and that what the word butt is serving
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  Speaker 1: for people in those moments of communication is it's like
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  Speaker 1: you're hiding behind something so you don't have to say
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  Speaker 1: the hard part. And I get what they're coming from there,
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  Speaker 1: like I really do. I just think their rule about
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  Speaker 1: it is just nonsensical and it's not as helpful as
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  Speaker 1: you as they think it is.
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: Right, right, right. And also the experience of saying and
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  Speaker 2: hearing and is likely going to feel different for most people,
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  Speaker 2: especially if you're used to saying butt and whatnot, particularly
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  Speaker 2: if they don't go overboard with the word. And it
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: can be instructive to experiment with using like the specifically
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: using those words and in your own communications you should
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  Speaker 2: be able to do that, So give it a shot,
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  Speaker 2: try to use and but it is not a panacea.
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  Speaker 2: It is barely a quick hack that may have a
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  Speaker 2: mild effect, and it is unlikely to significantly alter the
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: overall trajectory of a relationship. The only time I could
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: see where but like and and I understand maybe where
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  Speaker 2: this is coming from. I have tended to see the
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: word but used to dismantle an argument in a space
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  Speaker 2: that probably wasn't the most useful time to do that. So,
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: like in a brainstorming session when people bring up an
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: idea and you go, ah, but what about this? And
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: but what about this, Like when you're really just kind
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: of trying to brainstorm ideas, that's probably not the best
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: place is to do that. That's probably better for like
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: a problem solving circumstance. So it's important to know like
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: what context you're using this in too.
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So I think the long and short of it is,
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  Speaker 1: like I do, I do appreciate what they're trying to
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: coach is being more intentional in your communication and trying
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: out saying and instead of but. I mean, the thing
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: is like you can just pause, not say the word
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  Speaker 1: butt and communicate the same idea if you want to.
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  Speaker 1: And again, like that transition will then start to carry
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: the function of the word butt. If I say I
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: love you, I really need to be alone right now,
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: Like that doesn't necessarily change anything about how that was
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: going to land than if you use the word butt
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: or you use the word and right, right, the overall
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: message is about the same. Again, I can appreciate where
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: they're trying to come from, and I do think there's
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: value in trying to insert and instead of butt in
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: some of these spaces. I also think there's value in
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: considering confronting that you are trying to hide behind a
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: word to not say the hard part, and that saying
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: the hard part will actually facilitate that communication better, even
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: though it's more uncomfortable in the immediate sort of moment
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: that you're in. Right. So the problem I have here
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: again it's like grammatically it doesn't really work. Logically you
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: can just flip it around and have it like work,
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: and then psychologically it doesn't do what they say and
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: it's going to do. So I just really don't like
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: people who and then and then the people who like
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  Speaker 1: live into that like, oh, butt negates everything before it.
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  Speaker 1: That's my identity now, So anytime someone says butt to me,
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: I'm immediately up in arms, like that's not helpful either, right.
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: So my recommendation, I think is just like, just use
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: your language functionally and be mindful of what you're communicating
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: when you use those words with people because they hear
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: them in a way that might be different than what
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: you intended, right, And so that I think is sort
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: of the ultimate. The best advice really to give is
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: not to avoid saying the word, but it's to be
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: mindful and say what you mean to say in a
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: way that is as kind as.
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: It can be, absolutely one hundred percent great.
• 12:43
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• 12:50
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• 12:53
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• 12:55
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• 12:59
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• 13:02
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• 13:04
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• 13:06
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  Speaker 1: conjunction you feel strongly about, you should email us directly
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• 13:19
  Speaker 1: where we are now currently available, so you can talk
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: to us there. That I think is what we have
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: to say about this topic for today. Do you have
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: anything that you would like to add or anything that I.
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: Forgot before we wrap this up today, Shane, Nope, that
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: covers it from me.
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: Thank you all for listening. This is Abraham, this is Shane.
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: We're out bye. You've been listening to Why We Do
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: What We Do. You can learn more about this and
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: other episodes by going to wwdwwdpodcast dot com. Thanks for listening,
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: and we hope we have an awesome day