Latest / Future Christian / Why Podcast? What the podcast space offers the life of the church

Transcript

Why Podcast? What the podcast space offers the life of the church · Future Christian

0:05
>> Kevin George: Um.
0:05
>> Paul: Welcome to the Future Christian podcast, your
0:08
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your
0:11
church into the 21st century.
0:15
At the Future Christian podcast, we talk to
0:18
pastors, authors and other faith leaders for helpful
0:21
advice and practical wisdom to help you and your
0:24
community of faith walk boldly into the future.
0:27
Now here's your host. Loren Richmond Junior.
0:33
>> Loren: Welcome to the Future Christian podcast. This is
0:36
Loren Richman Junior. In this
0:38
episode, Martha Tatarnic welcomes anglican
0:41
priests Kevin George and Rob Henderson from
0:44
the podcast Vickers, a, uh,
0:46
theological and church Leadership podcast.
0:49
The content from this episode also appears on their
0:52
podcast. Rob Henderson currently
0:55
serves as rector of Holy Trinity St.
0:58
Stephen's Memorial Anglican Church in Ontario.
1:01
His previous parishes have been in the town of
1:03
Essex and the city of Windsor. Before
1:06
his ordination in 2008, Rob worked
1:09
in radio broadcasting in Chatham and Lymington.
1:13
He has been co hosting the Vickers Crossing
1:15
podcast with his friend and colleague Kevin
1:18
George since 2019.
1:21
Rob is married to wife Margie and has two
1:23
boys. Kevin George
1:26
currently serves as rector of St. Aidan's Church, London,
1:29
Ontario. Ordained in
1:31
1997, Kevin has been a priest in the
1:34
Diocese of Huron since 1998.
1:37
Kevin earned a bachelor in education degree from
1:40
Memorial University of Newfoundland, a Master of Divinity
1:43
degree from Huron University, and a doctorate in ministry
1:46
from McCormick Theological Seminary. Kevin
1:49
is married to Catherine Ann, who is the director of campus
1:52
ministry at Brescia University and
1:55
a chaplain in the Royal Canadian Naval
1:57
Reserve. Kevin is an avid reader,
2:01
loves being involved in the community, and enjoys an
2:03
appropriate adult beverage with friends.
2:06
Fun in 2019, Kevin
2:09
preached for 55 hours without sleep. Let's
2:12
welcome Rob and Kevin to the show.
2:21
>> Martha Tatarnic: Welcome to this special podcast episode
2:24
recorded for both future Christian and the
2:27
Vicars Crossing podcasts. We are here
2:30
today reflecting on the question
2:32
of why podcast with all of us in
2:35
full time ministry? Why do we carve out
2:38
time to offer these conversations,
2:40
and what do we think, in turn, that it
2:43
offers the life of the church. Bob
2:45
Henderson and Kevin George are the hosts of
2:48
the Vickers Crossing podcast, and I am, um,
2:51
the guest host slash occasional
2:54
host slash co host of Future
2:57
Christian podcast, along with Loren Richmond
3:00
junior, who is not with us for today's
3:03
conversation. I think it would be helpful
3:06
if we just took a moment to introduce ourselves
3:08
to one another's audiences, and I will
3:11
say that this is a very,
3:14
uh, anglican forward, uh,
3:17
recording for a future Christian. It's
3:20
very, um, Ontario,
3:22
Canada forward episode of
3:25
Future Christian and, uh, vicar's crossing
3:28
as well. So, Rob and Kevin, do you want to
3:31
share a little bit about your
3:33
context that you're serving in?
3:36
>> Rob Henderson: Yeah. Thanks, Martha. And hello future
3:38
Christian. Good to have, uh,
3:41
that opportunity to chat with everyone today. I love the name of the
3:44
podcast. It reminds me of that. What was that song?
3:47
Uh, future christians or rock song
3:49
future Christ? No, that's Sister Christian.
3:51
>> Kevin George: Yes. Sister Christian man.
3:53
>> Rob Henderson: That's sister Christian. Yeah. No, okay. Child of the eighties.
3:55
>> Martha Tatarnic: It doesn't exactly sound like the name of a rock song,
3:58
but.
3:59
>> Rob Henderson: Exactly. But, uh, no. Anyway, I really appreciate the
4:02
opportunity to be here. Uh, my name is Rob Henderson. I serve
4:04
as an anglican priest here in London, Ontario, Canada, at
4:07
a, uh, parish, uh, that we like to call holy
4:10
Trinity St. Stephen's memorial. I've been, uh,
4:13
the parish rector or priest there for about
4:16
six years now and spent some time in Windsor,
4:19
Essex area before that. Uh, spent a little time in
4:22
radio broadcasting industry before
4:25
I, um, ended up, uh, following a call to the ministry.
4:27
So, um, and I live here in London with my wife,
4:30
Margie. And we have two boys who are. My boys now are all
4:33
grown up and out of the house. Uh, so I see them on Sunday when they
4:36
bring their laundry. Other than that, we don't see each other too
4:39
much. Um, and a joy to be with, uh,
4:42
Kevin. And we do our Vickers crossing podcast here from
4:44
London. So, um, yeah, really, really excited
4:47
to talk about, you know, our side of things and,
4:50
and hear what, uh, what you guys have to say about this
4:53
kind of crazy world we live in now in podcasting
4:56
world.
4:56
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. It is a wild west of
4:59
podcasting.
5:00
>> Rob Henderson: It is, yeah.
5:02
>> Kevin George: And uh, my name is Kevin George. I am Dean, uh,
5:05
of Huron, rector at St. Paul's Cathedral,
5:08
uh, brand new at that. Just started in January, but I've been here in
5:11
London for the last twelve years, previously at St. Aiden's.
5:14
And, uh, Rob and I connected down in Windsor,
5:17
Essex county as well, uh, because I was down there for
5:19
14 years and originally, uh, from Newfoundland,
5:22
ordained in the diocese of eastern Newfoundland, Labrador. Served my first
5:25
parish in Labrador, West Labrador, uh, city
5:28
Walbush. But excited to be in the heart of downtown London. Now, we
5:31
have some incredible work going on down here,
5:34
uh, around redeveloping, um, the
5:37
space in order to welcome more people into it,
5:39
and, uh, to find ways to take
5:42
ourselves outside the building, into our neighborhood,
5:45
to, ah, live the fullness of the gospel in ways that we can best do that.
5:48
So, um, yeah, and I'm really happy for the
5:51
term Anglican forward. I think I'm going to put that on my
5:55
kevin. Kevin George, Anglican forward.
5:59
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, well, today we're all Anglican forward.
6:02
Actually, I should say as part of, um, my
6:05
story is that St. Paul's cathedral was
6:08
my home, home church for four years when I went to
6:11
university, uh, in
6:14
London. And I sang in
6:16
the choir and got paid to do
6:20
so, which was a great incentive to go to
6:22
church in those university years.
6:26
It's really easy to sleep in on Sunday
6:28
mornings.
6:29
>> Kevin George: It's kept me going to church for the last 28 years.
6:32
>> Rob Henderson: Exactly.
6:35
We might have just solved the traditional church's problem.
6:37
>> Martha Tatarnic: We just need to pay everybody.
6:38
>> Kevin George: Where are they?
6:39
>> Rob Henderson: Where are all the young people?
6:40
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, just give them a
6:43
stipend and our problems are solved
6:46
for sure. So I,
6:48
um. That's a little bit of my background,
6:51
uh, way back. But, uh, I serve in St.
6:54
Catharines, which is right near Niagara Falls,
6:57
Ontario. And, um, I'm in a
7:00
downtown church, a very historic downtown church, St.
7:03
George's, um, extremely
7:06
connected to the needs of the downtown,
7:09
which are mammoth,
7:12
um, especially considering what a small city it
7:15
is. You wouldn't really think that there would be
7:17
such a problem with opioid
7:20
abuse, uh, and
7:23
lack of housing and poverty and,
7:26
um, food insecurity, but
7:29
it is tremendous in St. Catherine. So our
7:32
church is really involved in feeding ministries in particular.
7:35
But that has led to a number of other really
7:38
interesting connections with municipal
7:40
politics and, uh, just getting the
7:43
church connected into how we
7:46
envision a better, um, future for
7:48
everybody in a pretty turbulent world. And
7:51
I've been here for the past ten years. I actually just
7:54
marked, uh, ten years of serving
7:57
at St. George's. So I'm
7:59
also a parent. Um, my kids are well
8:02
into their teens and,
8:04
uh, I'm really a fan of
8:07
parenting teenagers. I know that's not, like,
8:11
the feeling everybody has, but
8:14
it's, uh, my favorite. I just love it.
8:17
>> Rob Henderson: Awesome. Awesome. It's great.
8:19
>> Martha Tatarnic: So one of the things that we like to start with on our
8:22
podcast in terms of how we kind of frame our
8:25
conversations, is,
8:27
um, just to
8:30
get a little bit of
8:32
background, um,
8:35
on how our guests have
8:37
experienced change in the church, how they've
8:40
experienced change in their faith, and in
8:43
the, uh, landscape of organized religion over the
8:46
course of growing up or serving in the
8:49
church. So, um, Kevin, why
8:52
don't I put it to you first? Like, how have
8:54
you seen change
8:57
evolving in your time in the church?
9:01
>> Kevin George: Yeah. Wow. It's been a lot. I mean,
9:03
um, you know, like, I think the three
9:06
of us, I've been around the church my entire life.
9:09
Um, so as a little kid growing up in
9:12
Newfoundland, uh, in a church that, you
9:15
know, would see 15 people on a Sunday morning, maybe most of them
9:18
were relatives to move to, moving to
9:21
southwestern Ontario, uh, where there was
9:23
a diversity, uh, because I didn't see that growing up in a
9:26
small church in Newfoundland. Um, uh,
9:29
but more recently, I think the change that I see,
9:32
which is accelerating,
9:34
uh, is really around,
9:37
um, uh, diversity and the issues that
9:40
you named earlier, Martha, in terms of
9:42
the deep social need that we have in our communities,
9:45
particularly in the urban context,
9:48
and we're seeing in places far
9:51
smaller than St. Catharines, the same sort of deep need,
9:54
uh, in communities, particularly as it relates to poverty,
9:57
homelessness, uh, mental illness, drug addiction,
10:00
uh, and all of that. And so for me, I think
10:03
that a lot of the work that we've been engaged in as church
10:06
over the last number of years really has,
10:08
uh. Um. I think the
10:11
spirit is calling us to redirect our attention
10:14
away from ourselves and towards something
10:16
else. And that something else is where God is
10:19
at work, in the neighborhoods, amongst the
10:22
vulnerable, where Jesus doesn't say, uh, I'm
10:25
like the poor. Jesus says, I am the poor.
10:28
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah.
10:29
>> Kevin George: And uh, right. And so while we've been busy in
10:32
our, um, pardon the pr, Burton, uh,
10:35
reference, comfortable pews, um, Jesus
10:37
has been amongst the poor and with the poor, and is the poor.
10:41
And now we're really, really being directed
10:44
to think about ways to engage that and
10:46
um, to find ways to
10:49
engage what God is doing in many different aspects in our neighborhoods and
10:52
for us, for like me and rob, that's a part of what
10:55
uh, podcasting is about in a way that, you know,
10:58
um, a lot of people are not Sunday
11:00
morning worshippers, um,
11:04
but they, they engage their faith in different ways and a
11:07
podcast, for example, is a way to do that. So I think that there's an
11:10
evolution of church and I believe that
11:13
um, I hope that the church is getting to a place where we're
11:16
less clerical, uh, less
11:18
clericalism, more uh, celebration of the priesthood of
11:21
all believers. Uh, and the closer we get to that, I
11:24
think the closer we get to the reign of Christ. So that's
11:27
a little bit of what I think at the moment, I guess.
11:31
>> Rob Henderson: When I think about, yeah, what's changed, boy.
11:35
Um, I think one of the things
11:38
that I've really noticed and like Kevin and you, Martha, I've been
11:41
in the church for a while, since I was little, but
11:43
it's the way that we see ourselves
11:46
as church has really shifted.
11:49
And um, in one way that's been an
11:52
incredibly difficult, ah, thing for us to
11:55
do is to turn our lens back on ourself and
11:57
say, you know, this is
12:00
how we've been, or believe we are. And,
12:03
um, to turn the lens, as Kevin, um, noted, kind
12:06
of more outward to say, um,
12:09
what's God doing not just in here with us, but
12:12
out there with everyone else. That's been a
12:15
shift that's been, uh, taking
12:18
place, and it's been a difficult one, I think, for. And I'm, you
12:21
know, I'm talking about anglican church or traditional, um,
12:24
church and denomination in that. In that way. Yeah,
12:27
um, to do that. And, uh, what we're
12:29
discovering more and more is, you know,
12:32
everything we thought we knew about
12:35
the church and Jesus and God and our communities and
12:38
who we are, um, again,
12:41
has been shifted now, and the ground underneath us has
12:44
shifted. And we're saying, well, you know, maybe I didn't know
12:47
all the things that God was calling us to do or be
12:50
that there's something more for us to see. And so that shift
12:52
has been taking place. So that's one of the biggest
12:55
changes I've seen. And I was reflecting a
12:58
bit on, uh, like, this Sunday, as we record this,
13:01
we're going to read the Nicodemus story this Sunday, right.
13:04
Um, and there's that line in it. I was working
13:07
on this yesterday. There's that line in it where Jesus says
13:10
to Nicodemus, like, you're a teacher of
13:13
the law. Like, then you're coming to me asking questions.
13:16
Why aren't you grasping what's going on?
13:18
Like, you know, so much stuff basically, yet. Ah,
13:21
you can't see anything. And Jesus is trying to
13:24
explain this stuff to him and he's not clicking
13:27
in. Um. And for the longest time, the
13:30
church in general has pretty much thought we knew it. We
13:33
had it figured out. Like, our. We were full,
13:35
right? Our afters were full and our Sunday schools were full and.
13:38
And we kind of nailed it. And, uh,
13:41
now we're looking around going, but I don't understand how things
13:44
are now. And, uh, I've got to look
13:47
in a new way. So for me,
13:50
that's definitely been the shift that I've been seeing
13:53
and the thing that we're struggling with in a lot of ways, but
13:56
is also leading to a lot of new life and new ways for us, which
13:59
is hopeful.
14:00
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah, I appreciate that. I
14:02
mean, I'm kind of with
14:05
Kevin in terms of, like, growing up
14:08
in, um, a very
14:11
small, struggling rural,
14:15
uh, version of, um, the church. Um, like,
14:18
I don't have any experience of
14:21
the church being in a power position
14:24
whatsoever. Um, and
14:28
the church was pretty fringe in terms
14:31
of how people thought it mattered,
14:35
the life of our small town.
14:37
Um, and it was
14:40
considered to be a little odd to be a
14:42
Christian. Um,
14:45
so like the
14:48
need for the church to uh,
14:51
reevaluate and be humble
14:53
and um, figure out
14:56
who we are and
14:59
what we have to say that could
15:02
matter. I feel like that's sort of always been
15:05
on the radar as far as I have
15:08
seen. But
15:11
there have definitely been,
15:13
um, a lot of
15:16
failed experiments over the course of my
15:19
lifetime in terms of what is going to
15:22
be the great fix, what's going
15:25
to make things better.
15:28
Um, and I think what I see
15:30
right now that I just appreciate so much
15:33
is a lot of honesty about,
15:37
you know, what we can control
15:40
and what we can't control about
15:44
where we are as a society and
15:48
how much that secular mindset
15:51
dominates even people of faith.
15:54
Um, and
15:56
yet,
15:59
um, within that sort of free
16:02
fall of
16:04
institutional religion as being,
16:07
ah, a force that the rest of the
16:10
world thinks is important, um,
16:13
there is such a great opportunity, as you have both said,
16:16
to be really clear about,
16:18
um, what we
16:21
can offer, what that looks like, why it
16:24
matters, um, and
16:27
hopefully, uh,
16:29
uh, just a
16:31
much greater
16:34
sense of drawing close to the way of
16:37
Jesus. I hope that's why I'm in it.
16:40
I hope that's what we're about.
16:43
>> Kevin George: Mhm.
16:45
>> Rob Henderson: Right. And to be, and to be uh, you know,
16:48
risk takers, to do things that, that,
16:50
um, we. Otherwise that I
16:53
always go by, if it feels like this is really
16:56
going to be difficult and hard, then that's probably the way
16:59
to go.
17:00
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah.
17:01
>> Rob Henderson: You know what I mean? It's like if it's the easy thing
17:03
anymore, then you're probably just trying to get back
17:06
to the glory days or whatever that was. Um,
17:09
and we have conversations like this in our parish a lot about
17:12
that and like we're going through a process now
17:15
of um, thinking of redeveloping the
17:18
entire land on which we sit, where our actual
17:20
church would disappear and we would put up
17:23
housing, and within that housing and affordable housing, a
17:26
space for the community to be the
17:28
followers of Jesus in that community. Right. And
17:31
so obviously those are difficult conversations, um,
17:34
because it's about giving up something and you don't
17:37
exactly know what it's going to look like.
17:39
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah.
17:40
>> Rob Henderson: At least even though everything's falling apart here and our roof's
17:43
falling apart, at least I know.
17:45
>> Kevin George: Yeah.
17:46
>> Rob Henderson: What I need to do here. Right.
17:48
>> Kevin George: That's true. Thinking, uh,
17:52
a bit about, uh, about that, in terms of
17:54
how it. I look at sort of sometimes
17:57
our physical manifestations too, of what's going on around us. So
18:00
I uh. In our own spiritual lives. Right. And so I think
18:03
that, you know, when you start to think about,
18:06
um, the lens that we bring
18:09
in podcasting you as future
18:12
Christian, myself and Rob in, uh, the vicar's
18:14
crossing, um, again, we could stick with
18:17
what we're comfortable with, as Rob was saying about the building as it is. Right.
18:20
Or we could decide to sort of stretch ourselves a little bit. And
18:23
I think that's what Rob and I had sort of hoped to do when we got into this. I
18:26
mean, it was, you know, Rob brought a wealth of experience in
18:29
terms of his broadcast background, and. And
18:32
him and I often found ourselves sitting at a pub with a
18:35
beer, talking about the intersectionality
18:37
of, um, faith and a
18:40
public square. Things that were happening in our, um. You mentioned
18:43
municipality and municipal politics earlier, Martha. I mean, I think
18:46
that that's one of the things that we see a lot here in London,
18:49
is there are really a lot of crossovers
18:52
from what we believe following in the way of Jesus looks like and
18:55
what having a responsible civic voice looks like.
18:58
And so, for us, that really is the lens we
19:01
try to bring to the podcast that we do. And, uh, the vicar's
19:04
crossing, we say, you know, a space where faith intersects with the
19:07
public square. And it really is around trying
19:09
to invite on guests who are in some
19:12
ways, um, either through their writing, their
19:15
witness, their ministry, whatever they're up to, are really
19:18
pushing the envelope in terms of reminding folks
19:21
that our walk with Jesus is not
19:24
a private practice. That
19:27
is, there's a public element to that. And
19:30
if we're not. If we're not engaged in that, and we're missing something in terms
19:33
of our faith. So that's a little bit about what we do, but
19:36
talk to us about future Christian and its focus
19:39
and why it matters.
19:41
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, well, I think that,
19:44
um, kind of the bottom line of, ah, future Christian
19:47
is that it is a church. It's a podcast about the
19:50
church. It's a podcast about church leadership.
19:53
It's a podcast about,
19:55
um, trying to be really clear
19:58
about what we're
20:00
seeing on the ground right
20:02
now in church
20:05
leadership, in church life. That gives us
20:08
a sense not of,
20:11
like, the crystal ball
20:14
of the future, but gives us a sense
20:17
of next steps. And
20:20
I, uh, wrote an article about this recently, but,
20:23
um, I remember, you know, one
20:26
of my colleagues used to talk
20:29
about Wayne Gretzky as,
20:31
like, an analogy for
20:35
leadership. Like, you don't skate to where the
20:38
puck is. You skate to where the puck is going.
20:41
Um, and, like, that
20:43
sounds really great.
20:46
Like, of course you want to skate to where the puck is
20:49
going. And he likes my friend who said this was such.
20:52
Is such a great leader, like, and is really
20:55
good at knowing where the puck is going. But
20:58
I sort of think that, like, the podcasting
21:01
realm actually gives us a, uh,
21:04
chance to, like,
21:06
engage with where the puck is right now.
21:09
Like, and there's something to be said about that,
21:12
too, right? Like. Like, I
21:14
want. I want to be part of
21:17
opening a space that's really
21:20
honest, really inquisitive,
21:23
really curious about what we
21:26
see happening right now, because I'm pretty
21:29
convinced that that is
21:32
incredibly essential for
21:36
being able to discern next steps. And, like,
21:39
I'm the kind of person. I mean, if
21:42
you talk to me about a five year plan, like, I just am going to
21:45
glaze over. Like, I am not strategic, um,
21:48
planner in any which
21:51
way, but I think in my ministry of being
21:54
really effective at being able to
21:59
put, um, vision into action,
22:01
um, by always being able
22:04
to at least discern a next
22:06
step. And
22:11
I think part of discerning a next step
22:14
is to be honest about where you are right
22:17
now. So, like,
22:19
we. Like you guys,
22:21
um, we interview people
22:24
from lots of different
22:27
backgrounds, and some are
22:29
authors. Some are just, uh,
22:32
interesting church leaders. Some are doing
22:34
interesting projects in a variety of kinds of
22:37
ways and denominations in the church.
22:40
Um, but that's. I would say,
22:43
like, our overriding question
22:46
is, like, where are we and what are we
22:49
seeing?
22:50
>> Kevin George: Well, you know, to carry on that analogy of the. Of
22:53
the. Of the Gretzky example, and I think Wayne was always quick
22:56
to say it was his dad who told him that it was. It was
22:59
a walterism. But, uh, you can't go to where the
23:02
puck. Nobody can go to where the puck is going if there isn't
23:05
somebody working hard to dig it out right now and send it.
23:08
And so if. So, if indeed. If indeed you're right,
23:11
that where. That. That where we are right now
23:14
is actually where the puck is, then that's the
23:17
dirty work, right? Like, that's the work that requires sort of
23:19
having to get in the corners, uh, you know, fight to
23:22
get, you know, all those pucks that Wayne picked up, somebody had to root them out
23:25
of the corner and get them where to where they were going and. And win the battles.
23:28
And I think there's a lot of battling going on right now for us to
23:31
try and find our space and know what that is. Um. Um,
23:34
and. And I think that there's something in that, so. Yeah.
23:37
Cool, right?
23:38
>> Rob Henderson: Yeah. And that's all about the getting real stuff. Like, Martha,
23:41
you're mentioning there. And it's. I think it's something that. That
23:44
was my point earlier, was just, we got to know who we
23:47
are. We got to know, like, it's great to have
23:50
the puck, but if you don't know,
23:53
you know what you can do with it.
23:55
>> Kevin George: That's right.
23:56
>> Rob Henderson: You know, then you're just. You're just shooting it all over the place. It doesn't
23:59
matter. Right. You got to be able to. To know
24:02
who you are. And that takes place mostly
24:05
in congregational aspects, too, in small communities
24:07
right now that we have to have these conversations about who we
24:10
are in our neighborhood, um, what our
24:13
gifts are, what we can do, what we can't do,
24:17
who we're going to pass it to, and who we want to keep it away from.
24:19
And, uh, sometimes those are hard conversations,
24:22
but, um, this is where
24:25
we are right now. And it is very. I agree with you totally, Martha.
24:28
It's focused on what we need to be doing now
24:31
to have these conversations.
24:32
>> Martha Tatarnic: Well, and there is an ecumenical dimension to that
24:35
as well. Right? Like, I mean, we started off by
24:38
saying we're Anglican forward today on this
24:40
podcast, and, like, I don't know about the two
24:43
of you, but I'm super committed to being
24:46
Anglican. Like, I really, really love being
24:49
Anglican. Um, but
24:52
that ecumenical conversation, opening up
24:54
and really listening to what
24:57
our brothers and sisters are saying from
25:00
other, uh,
25:03
gifts and, um, experiences
25:06
of the church, I think,
25:08
is incredibly clarifying for
25:11
us as Anglicans. Right. And I would
25:14
imagine vice versa. I mean, Loren is a,
25:17
ah, pastor in the, um, disciples
25:20
of Christ denomination in the states.
25:22
And, um, that I, you know, I think
25:25
is very committed to that denomination. Like,
25:28
I think that we can really listen
25:31
to one another and
25:33
be, uh.
25:36
You know, we can all gain something in our
25:39
own traditions and what we have to offer
25:42
by making sure that we're
25:45
listening carefully to what other people have to offer.
25:49
>> Rob Henderson: Mhm. Yeah. There's so many other gifts, isn't
25:52
there? I know Kevin could speak to this better than I. I
25:55
know he's very, um, connected to,
25:58
uh, ecumenical work in his ministry over
26:01
the years and definitely different faiths
26:05
and those outside of Christianity. Um, but I
26:08
know there's many gifts because, Kevin, you've drawn me into some
26:11
of those conversations that you've had with these folks, and
26:14
the amount of learning and
26:16
revelation that comes out of those from others is just
26:19
enormous.
26:20
>> Kevin George: Yeah, I think that that's. I mean, we've seen. And that's become
26:23
increasingly more important here, uh, in London anyway,
26:26
in terms of our broader context. So we've had guests who
26:28
are, you know, ah, Muslim, Jewish, across the
26:31
spectrum. Really beyond. Beyond christian conversations.
26:34
And given some of what we've dealt with in
26:37
this city around, uh, terrorism and
26:40
islamophobia, um, and,
26:42
uh, antisemitism, all that stuff, it's been an important
26:45
conversation, and I think that it gets to the root of
26:48
what it looks like to live out our baptismal ministry. I mean, if
26:51
we say we want to lift up the
26:54
dignity of every human being, um, but
26:57
our first approach to the other human being is to try and figure out how to make
27:00
them like us. Uh, I'm not sure
27:03
what we're doing. Like, that's not the real baptismal call.
27:06
So coming to learn more about ourselves by more deeply
27:08
understanding others, I think that's critical. Ecumenically,
27:11
interfaith as well.
27:14
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. We don't have to be threatened by difference, that's for
27:17
sure.
27:18
>> Kevin George: No, no.
27:22
>> Martha Tatarnic: So what do you think that,
27:24
um. What do you think some of the
27:27
conversations are that the
27:30
church struggles to have?
27:32
Like, what are the things that
27:35
maybe we're all trying to
27:38
get at a little bit that
27:41
haven't been easy to talk about in the church?
27:46
>> Kevin George: I think one of the big ones now, uh, is
27:49
really, um, around
27:51
diversity and inclusion.
27:54
And I think that one of the things
27:57
we noticed, uh, Rob will
28:00
say the same, I think, is post George
28:02
Floyd. Uh, and the black lives
28:05
matter matter, uh, movement. Uh, we've
28:08
all, um, been called into
28:11
a space where we're having to deal
28:13
with our white supremacy
28:16
and what that's meant in the church.
28:19
And, uh, those are difficult conversations. I just found
28:22
myself on a committee yesterday, which
28:25
I looked and I finally said on the zoom call, look, I
28:28
just need to point out the obvious here. We're planning something
28:31
nationally, and I look at the screen, we're all a bunch of
28:34
white people, middle aged white people.
28:37
Um, and so I think that's. That's something
28:40
that we're all being called to wrestle with at the minute
28:43
and own. Uh, because it's. It.
28:46
The. What I'm seeing in my context, the newcomers
28:49
that we have to this downtown parish are from, are like the
28:52
United nations. They're from all over the world. That's.
28:54
>> Rob Henderson: That's.
28:55
>> Kevin George: That's who the church is going to be and who it is.
28:57
>> Rob Henderson: Yeah.
28:57
>> Kevin George: And meanwhile, we're still all pretending. And it's
29:00
interesting to me that there's a physical manifestation in
29:03
this big cathedral of what's going on
29:06
spiritually, because they're all sitting at the back and around the
29:08
edges, and then all these white anglo
29:11
saxon older people are in the core of the
29:14
seating, and then we. This thing going on around us. And
29:17
so the real work now to struggle is how do we change
29:20
that? How do we. How do we shift that so
29:22
that, um, you know, there's diversity at the core
29:25
of everything we do. Our leadership as a parish,
29:28
as a wider diocese, as a national church, what are we
29:31
doing? I think that's the big struggle today.
29:34
>> Rob Henderson: Right. And, uh. Yeah. And to piggyback on that a bit, Kevin, is.
29:37
And I've started to experience it in my
29:40
parish, is the difficulty sometimes we have
29:43
is that we're not aware that we're not
29:46
ready for ethnic diversity when it
29:49
does show up in our parishes. Like, we don't know what
29:52
to do. And my example is that I've
29:55
had, and there's a couple of churches I know in London because we've
29:58
talked about it at our clerics meetings, is I've had some
30:01
people from, um, Nigeria come and they've
30:04
moved into the city a couple years ago, and they're looking
30:07
for community to connect to. And they come from an anglican
30:09
tradition, um, from where they were,
30:12
but they come in here and, um.
30:16
We have difficult time, um, just
30:19
to name this, we have difficult time pronouncing names.
30:22
Right. Um, I'm doing baptisms in a couple of weeks
30:25
for little children named NATO and
30:27
Chinaza and trying to introduce
30:30
them to people in the community. And it's just an
30:32
uncomfortableness because it's not like Frank and Bill
30:35
and John, right. So they don't end up
30:38
going to talk to them at coffee hour and such. And it's not because they're not
30:41
kind, loving people. It's. There's a disconnect there.
30:44
Um, so we haven't had conversations about how to be ready
30:47
for. For those that are coming into our cities and
30:50
refugees and people from different,
30:52
um, parts of the world, um, to
30:55
prepare ourselves that it's not going to be, as Kevin said,
30:58
just kind of the white couple from down the street.
31:01
Um. Uh, what do we have to do
31:04
to be able to respect the dignity of every human being?
31:07
And that's the work of today, for sure.
31:10
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. I mean, in our canadian context, the, uh, truth
31:13
and reconciliation conversation with indigenous people
31:16
is being front and center,
31:18
like, on and off for a long
31:21
time now. And I
31:24
think in any of these pieces
31:27
that, uh, you're naming, like, around
31:29
reconciliation, around decolonization,
31:32
around inclusion, there
31:35
can be a really, um,
31:38
easy sort
31:41
of seduction into thinking that
31:44
if we say the right things and if we talk about
31:47
being inclusive, there's a lot of
31:50
virtue signaling that can go on. Um,
31:54
but there is actually a sacrificial element
31:57
to, um, making any
32:00
of it work.
32:03
Ah, there has to be an acknowledgement of
32:06
how much our prosperity, uh,
32:10
has been on the backs of
32:13
the, uh,
32:15
injustices that have been,
32:18
um, ladled on others. And
32:21
if we actually want to get real about any
32:24
of these things, there are things that we have
32:27
to be willing to give up.
32:29
>> Rob Henderson: Mhm.
32:30
>> Kevin George: Yeah. And I think that's always the
32:33
challenge. Um, and like I
32:36
said when I sat in
32:39
this committee, it was just the most obvious thing to me.
32:41
But I think the growth is that I wouldn't have seen that three or
32:44
four years ago. Right, right. I have to
32:47
be honest. I mean, in terms of convicting myself of my
32:50
own, uh, white supremacy, my own privilege,
32:53
uh, the ways in which I've benefited. Right.
32:56
Uh, over others. Um,
32:59
and I just wouldn't have noticed that a few years ago. Um,
33:02
and I'm not saying that to say I've got it because I'm still working at
33:05
it. It's a nonstop thing, but
33:08
I think that I'm not the only one. And as soon as I raised it,
33:11
everybody else said, oh my gosh, you're right, we need
33:14
to address this. It's got to be a thing. So I think that
33:17
to put some hope on it, I think the fact that we're having the sort of
33:20
conversations that we're having, um,
33:23
and I know you guys are having them on your podcast,
33:25
Martha. We've had them on ours as well. Um,
33:28
so when you think about all the various guests we've had and some of the
33:31
guests in each case,
33:33
uh, I think this is one of the themes
33:36
that come up. I wonder if there are others that we can talk about as well.
33:39
Themes that sort of, uh, have
33:42
surfaced from our conversations.
33:46
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I mean, definitely on future Christian.
33:49
I would say that
33:52
the two themes around,
33:55
um,
33:58
decline of the religious
34:01
institutions, mhm, and
34:04
clergy health, are two
34:07
things that come up in a lot of different
34:10
ways, from a lot of different angles.
34:13
Um, and you know,
34:16
there are a variety of ways,
34:19
uh, in which the health and well
34:22
being of religious leaders
34:25
is talked about, um,
34:27
how we need to, you know, support people who
34:30
are kind of on the front lines of dealing with the
34:33
anxiety of
34:36
our institutions wanting
34:39
to survive and feeling like the
34:42
sand is slipping out from underneath them.
34:45
Um, and then, you know, a lot of
34:48
different angles and perspectives
34:51
on what it is that,
34:54
uh, causes that decline
34:58
and what we can do to fix
35:01
it or what we can do to live
35:03
more faithfully in the midst of it. I tend
35:06
to, uh,
35:09
resonate more with the
35:11
guests who
35:14
take more of the angle of,
35:17
um, how do we live faithfully in the
35:20
midst of this reality?
35:23
Um, rather than
35:26
how do we fix it, how do we make it
35:29
better?
35:30
>> Rob Henderson: Right. Yeah. That's the theme I've always seemed
35:33
comes up a lot, is. Yeah, how are we in this
35:36
transition time? Because we're finally
35:38
saying, right, it's been a while, but we're finally saying, look,
35:41
everything's flipping right now, and we're right dead center in the middle of
35:44
it. This is not
35:47
the church of our parents and grandparents anymore,
35:50
so we're quite cognizant of that.
35:53
But, yeah. How do we remain faithful?
35:56
And, um, where is
35:58
the holy spirit pointing us,
36:02
uh, to be in this transitory
36:05
time? Um, as Kevin mentioned earlier,
36:08
God's at work in our
36:10
neighborhoods and outside of us, uh, way
36:13
ahead of where we are. So, thank
36:16
goodness. How do we meet God there? Yeah, thank
36:18
goodness. If God was going to wait for people to figure
36:21
it out, then, you know, we'd be in trouble. But,
36:24
like, how do we. How do we remain faithful to look for that
36:27
and be cognizant of that, um, in
36:30
times of transition in the institutional church right now.
36:33
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah.
36:33
>> Kevin George: And I think the rob is right. And listening to
36:36
both of you just now, the other thing that, that came
36:39
to mind, that, as a word that's popped
36:42
up a lot over the last year and a half, two years on our
36:45
podcast anyway, is apocalyptic.
36:48
Uh, and, uh, it's
36:51
been interesting to us the diversity of guests,
36:54
uh, for whom, when we talked about what's going on right now in
36:57
our writing, particularly these authors, as a revelatory
37:00
time.
37:01
>> Rob Henderson: Right.
37:01
>> Kevin George: Like, this is an apocalyptic time where the veil is being pulled
37:03
back and we're getting a
37:06
clear view.
37:07
>> Rob Henderson: Yeah.
37:08
>> Kevin George: Of what. What's going on. And. And I think that's
37:11
been a thread that's run through a lot. Hey, Rob, like, uh, we've heard that
37:14
a lot in our.
37:15
>> Rob Henderson: Yeah, yeah. And all of the
37:17
different, um, reactions to that veil being
37:20
lifted back because we see it so many different ways.
37:23
Right. We see people that say, well, no, I don't see a veil.
37:26
It looks. Looks the same to me. Everything's fine, and I don't
37:29
have a problem with that. And then there's. That's one extreme, and the other
37:32
extreme is burn it all down, start all over again.
37:35
Right. And then there's that kind of in between. So,
37:38
um, I guess, depending who you ask, the
37:41
lens through which we see that, um,
37:43
apocalyptic nature of it all
37:46
is really important and powerful.
37:48
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, I definitely appreciate how many
37:51
people are clueing into that word
37:53
apocalypse not being about,
37:57
um, a comet that's
38:00
about to, ah, hit earth,
38:03
life will be extinct. Like the
38:06
theological lens of
38:08
unveiling, of revealing, of
38:11
revelation. Um, we
38:14
talk a lot too. I find a number of our
38:16
guests help, uh, us to
38:19
sort through that question of the relationship between
38:23
the church and technology, which I think
38:25
is pretty important. We had a,
38:28
um, a panel discussion a few months
38:31
ago on AI in the
38:33
church, and I think
38:36
Loren started the podcast during
38:38
COVID Um,
38:41
so, you know, there have been a lot of
38:44
burning questions that have come up in the last number
38:47
of years about livestream or
38:50
not. Do we insist on people being
38:53
in person in order to be the
38:55
embodied community of faith? What about
38:58
the virtual experiences of
39:01
community and, um,
39:03
worship? And I think those are
39:06
pretty important things to wrestle with right now,
39:09
too.
39:11
>> Rob Henderson: Yeah, yeah. If I go off
39:14
script a little bit because you mentioned the pandemic or Covid,
39:17
um, Martha ask you guys, like,
39:20
you know, it's not just something that happened a few years ago and now we're
39:23
done with it. It's had the residuals of it
39:25
exist in our faith lives and
39:28
church lives today still. Like, what have you
39:31
seen coming out of that? Um,
39:34
and where do you see some of
39:37
the hope, uh, or positive
39:40
transition that's come out of that? Although it was a very difficult thing to
39:43
go through for us, um, you guys
39:46
are starting to see that at all in your
39:48
contexts. Like, was there a
39:51
good thing about it at the end of the day that you can kind of
39:54
say, okay, okay, I didn't want to happen, but,
39:57
um, I saw this come out of it.
40:00
>> Martha Tatarnic: I guess the thing that I
40:02
try to stay
40:05
close to in terms of the pandemic
40:10
is not to take for
40:12
granted the ability to
40:14
gather like, none m.
40:17
You know, I think living in
40:20
Canada, like, it is quite easy to take for
40:23
granted just that
40:25
basic, incredible freedom to be able
40:28
to practice our faith
40:31
how we want to. Like that is an
40:34
extraordinary freedom that a lot of the world
40:37
and a lot of history has not enjoyed.
40:40
Um, but that. That ability
40:43
to congregate, um,
40:46
I hope I won't take for granted
40:49
again.
40:51
Um, I mean,
40:54
I think that. I
40:57
think coming out of COVID I have
41:00
gotten a lot less fixated on
41:03
how many people show up for Sunday morning
41:06
services and what number I'm writing in the book at
41:09
the end of Sunday about how many people were
41:12
there, because I used to feel pretty
41:15
much like I lived and died by
41:18
like the size of our Sunday morning
41:21
congregations and what that meant about, you
41:24
know, how we were or weren't growing
41:27
or maintaining ground or all of those things.
41:29
And I think a lot of the.
41:31
>> Rob Henderson: Don't, don't get. Kevin and I started on how, how the
41:34
institution counts.
41:37
>> Kevin George: I have a wild idea. I have a wild
41:40
idea. Let's stop writing down the number.
41:42
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, yeah. Wouldn't that be nice?
41:45
It's like when you don't have to weigh yourself any
41:48
longer. Like.
41:51
>> Kevin George: Who does? Like it's, we have these metrics.
41:54
How many people were in your church on a Sunday after Labor
41:57
Day? And it, this follow up question should be, and who really
42:00
gives a shit? Who really cares?
42:03
>> Rob Henderson: See, see, Martha, I told you,
42:06
don't get them going.
42:07
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, uh, but I hear you. Right?
42:09
>> Rob Henderson: Like, it's true, it's true.
42:11
>> Martha Tatarnic: How is that a faithful way of
42:13
measuring anything?
42:15
>> Rob Henderson: Math. Ah, yeah, exactly. It goes back to, you know,
42:18
who are we? Well, it's very, this is this who we is, this
42:21
who we are.
42:21
>> Kevin George: It's very colonial is what it is. And it's, it's, it
42:24
all sort of assumes this. Like it's, it's just
42:27
crazy because it, but, but if instead. And actually it
42:30
ties to what I think about your question, Rob, about what
42:33
coming, coming out of it or whatever it is post Covid
42:36
time is. I don't know what it is, but I think the thing is,
42:39
and it really ties into what Martha was saying about, you know, not
42:41
fixating on a number. I feel like I hold things
42:44
less tightly.
42:46
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, right.
42:47
>> Kevin George: Because I think that we had a tendency to, need to hold on
42:50
to stuff. But I've seen the church liberate itself
42:53
of more stuff during the, particularly the closure
42:56
time where, I mean, our buzz line
42:59
at my previous parish, at parish council was, let's not let a
43:01
good pandemic go to waste. And
43:06
uh, so we got rid of all kinds of things that we used to do and said,
43:09
oh, we don't need to do that anymore. And then all of a sudden, we were liberated
43:12
from it.
43:13
>> Martha Tatarnic: Like what? Can you just name a few things? I'm really
43:16
interested.
43:17
>> Kevin George: Well, so we stopped passing a plate around and guess what? We've never
43:20
resumed passing a plate around. And we, and our givings didn't go down. They
43:23
went up. Um, we, uh,
43:26
took, uh, the pews out of the church during pandemic and didn't put them back.
43:29
We replaced them with chairs. And we've been able to reconfigure our
43:31
worship space in all kinds of incredible ways.
43:34
Uh, you know, we decided we didn't need all the meetings that we were
43:37
having because they were mostly to meet for the sake of
43:40
meeting. So we were able to readjust where our priorities were
43:43
and when was it important for us to be in a room together? Like, those are just
43:46
three to come to top of mind in a hurry. But it really was about
43:49
saying, okay, what do we really need to be doing?
43:52
Where's our focus? What are we called to be? Who are we called to
43:54
be? And, uh, what are the tools we're
43:57
using to get there? And then the other big thing, of course, which
44:00
what we're doing right now probably testifies to this, is,
44:04
um, absolutely, you had to ask people.
44:07
If I had to go to parish council in 2019 and say, let's
44:09
install ten or $15,000 worth of video
44:12
equipment and live, uh, stream
44:15
our services to the wider public, everybody would have said I was
44:18
nuts. Now it's expected that that's just a part
44:21
of what we do. And we've now come to understand more
44:24
fully. I think, at least in my previous parish, we
44:26
did that parishioners are not just people who sit in the pews on
44:29
Sunday morning, that there are different ways to engage that.
44:32
And so when I was at St. Aiden's, people would say, the
44:35
listeners of Vickers crossing are parishioners. They would say, like, you know,
44:38
because they. They tune in to hear what's going on. They're parishioners at Holy
44:41
Trinity, St. Stephen's, they're parishioners at St. Aidan's. They're
44:44
not us. They're people who don't have. Have the ability to
44:46
connect. And, uh, I quite like that. You know, I
44:49
like the notion that there are different ways. And so, for me, I
44:52
think we've been liberated from a lot.
44:56
>> Rob Henderson: And getting back to, you know, what we've been talking about today, our
44:58
podcasts. The reason that Kevin and I ended up
45:01
doing the Vickers crossing in the format, it is, was because we couldn't
45:04
meet. We were at. We were in the,
45:07
uh, upstairs, uh, attic of a local
45:10
bar and eatery called crossings. And we have local people
45:13
come by and we'd go up the stairs and bring our equipment up and sit in
45:16
this room and record.
45:17
>> Kevin George: Very local. Very, very.
45:18
>> Rob Henderson: All of a sudden, we couldn't do it. Yeah, very local. Which was
45:21
fine, which is good. And there are a lot of people talk to in the city and
45:24
so on. But then all of a sudden, now what are we going to do? Well,
45:27
we figured out how to use this thing called Zoom,
45:29
and we, uh, have a great producer named, uh,
45:32
Ian Stevenson, who's able to do all the technical stuff. And the next
45:35
thing you know, we're connecting with people
45:38
in English and Toronto
45:41
and other places of the world, and other authors and, and
45:44
so on and so forth. So it just completely expanded the ability
45:47
to be able to, uh, extend our
45:49
ministry, uh, um, because
45:52
of what we were forced to learn.
45:54
>> Kevin George: And it greatly reduced my, uh, intake of beer
45:57
because we're no longer doing it in the pub.
45:59
>> Rob Henderson: That's you, too. Yeah, that's true, too.
46:01
Saved a lot of money.
46:03
>> Martha Tatarnic: Saved a lot of money.
46:06
>> Rob Henderson: So we've actually had different guests,
46:09
definitely on our podcast, like, from what Kevin and I have done and what
46:12
Marth has done, but we've also had some
46:15
similar, um, ones. I noticed Brian McLaren was
46:17
on, um,
46:21
future Christian as well. I know he's got a new book out. We've talked to
46:23
Brian, too. But what have been some of the. When you think
46:26
about some of the guests, maybe, Martha, you can answer this. The kind
46:29
of, um, exciting ones or enlightening
46:32
interviews. Uh, what are the highlights and the ones
46:35
that come to mind for you?
46:36
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, um, I mean, for both
46:39
Loren and
46:41
me,
46:42
um,
46:45
we tend to go back to some interviews
46:48
that he's done with Andrew Root, um,
46:51
and his work around secularism,
46:54
drawing on, um, the work of Charles
46:57
Taylor and so on, to both of us, that
47:00
just provides such a framework for what so
47:03
many other people are saying. And
47:06
I just really
47:09
find, um, it so centering in
47:12
my life as a, uh, parish leader
47:15
to think about what
47:18
crisis I'm giving my energy and
47:21
attention. So he says, like, we
47:24
have acted as if
47:27
the crisis is that people aren't coming to
47:30
church. And so the problem, like, the
47:32
problem we need to solve is how to get people to come to
47:35
church. But really the crisis
47:38
is that we live
47:40
in a world that is dominated by a secular
47:43
mindset. And
47:47
the question that we need to answer is, how do we
47:49
communicate the living God to
47:53
a world that has sort of lost that
47:55
transcendent framework?
47:58
Um, I'm really
48:00
interested as a parish leader
48:02
in giving my energy and
48:05
my sleepless nights to that. Like,
48:09
how do we communicate the living God
48:12
to a world that, um,
48:15
has sort of been trained out of being able to
48:18
see it? Uh,
48:21
but where, like, the living God is,
48:24
like, the fingerprints are all around us,
48:27
um, the activity is all around us. Like, how do
48:30
we. How do we become attentive to that? So
48:32
I didn't do the interview. I, uh, think Lawrence
48:35
interviewed him a couple of times. But I find
48:38
that that was like, that has been such a
48:41
highlight for me as a parish leader. And
48:43
then, um, as
48:46
like, kind of a basis for a lot of the other
48:48
conversations that we have as well. Like
48:52
that question of, like, communicating the living God.
48:54
Yeah, that feels really alive for me.
48:58
>> Rob Henderson: Yeah.
48:59
>> Kevin George: Yeah.
49:00
>> Rob Henderson: I think about some of the, um, all
49:03
the people that we talked about from. From when we started, Kevin, up in
49:06
the. Up in the upper room there,
49:09
um, at crossings with some local people to some of
49:12
the big names, uh, out there now, like the
49:14
Diana Butler basses and the Brian McLarens that we've
49:17
talked about, and Phil Yancey that we had a chance to talk to.
49:20
But what I. What I found most
49:23
wonderful about all of these stories is that God
49:26
shows up, and that transcendence you talk about
49:29
shows up in these people's lives in ways that
49:31
are not only, but they're not just personal
49:34
to them. They speak
49:37
to the people that are in my pew as well.
49:40
Um, so to be able to hear their stories and see
49:43
that transcendent God and point to that in their
49:46
experience and their background and the story they tell,
49:49
it gives me an opportunity to connect in
49:52
my preaching and to the people I talk to outside of the
49:54
church, to give me the ability to actually point
49:57
to it.
49:58
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah.
49:59
>> Rob Henderson: You know, because I can't do it on my own. Like, if it was just up
50:02
to me, forget about it.
50:02
>> Martha Tatarnic: Well, that is, like, sort of another
50:06
main reason why we do this, right? Like, uh,
50:09
what a privilege. And as you say,
50:12
isn't that amazing that that can be such a common
50:15
denominator across the big
50:17
names and the people who are so talked about,
50:20
as well as those who are just
50:23
faithfully leading
50:25
and reflecting and discerning
50:28
and figuring out those next steps.
50:30
>> Kevin George: I think it's totally true, because I think about, like, two that pop to
50:33
mind are, uh, Will Willemon and
50:36
Philip Yancey. Are there any two human beings who've written
50:39
more than those two folks in the last, uh,
50:42
30 or 40 years in a christian context? Probably not. But
50:45
both of them, in their own way, uh,
50:47
in their conversations with us, talked the same
50:50
language that I can hear from somebody who's in the
50:53
pew here today, uh, who's come in
50:56
and is struggling with their faith. And that, to
50:59
me, is really quite something. The other one
51:02
that stands out for me for different reasons, uh, is
51:04
Kwok pui lan and, uh, her book, uh,
51:07
anglicanism from a post colonialist perspective.
51:10
Um, and I think that that
51:13
book and that conversation for us as a church
51:16
is going to be one of the most critical things that we can
51:18
engage in the days ahead, years ahead. And
51:21
I know she's, uh, for those of you who are in southwestern
51:24
Ontario, she's going to be at, uh, Huron in the
51:27
fall for the, or lecture. And, uh, hopefully here at
51:29
St. Paul's on a Sunday morning as well. This is conversation we
51:32
need.
51:34
>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay.
51:35
>> Rob Henderson: One that really jumps out to me is when, you know, we have to often
51:38
have to talk about or preach about or study about, you know, where
51:41
is God in the darkness? And we ended
51:44
up talking to Romeo Dallaire.
51:45
>> Martha Tatarnic: Oh, my gosh.
51:46
>> Kevin George: Romeo.
51:47
>> Rob Henderson: Yeah. I don't know how you got him, Kevin. That was probably the
51:49
biggest guess. He was a guy. Yeah.
51:52
Uh, uh. It was unbelievable. Yeah, exactly. Well, he
51:55
talked to us, and he did. And, uh, you
51:58
know, the story. He didn't get too deep into all the stories
52:01
from Rwanda as the Un leader over there,
52:03
peacekeeping mission leader. But it's all in his book. But we
52:06
talked a little bit on the fringes of it. But there's a guy that,
52:09
you know, went to hell.
52:10
>> Martha Tatarnic: Oh, my gosh. I am gonna go back and listen to that one.
52:13
That, uh, is incredible.
52:15
>> Rob Henderson: Yeah. Talk about finding.
52:18
Finding light in the midst of darkness. Oh, my gosh. This
52:21
guy's been there and did it and saw it and has
52:23
been lit.
52:24
>> Kevin George: And has been living it out over and over again, you know,
52:27
with the post traumatic stress and. And the work that he's doing.
52:30
I mean, this is a guy who was. And he talks openly about, you know,
52:33
going from that to being on a park bench in Ottawa, asleep in the
52:36
middle of the night, you know, like, um. And how
52:39
his. You know, he wouldn't describe himself
52:41
necessarily as a faithful Sunday morning Christian,
52:44
but how his. His christian upbringing was a piece
52:47
of what held them together through that.
52:49
>> Rob Henderson: Right.
52:49
>> Kevin George: So, yeah, this is an incredible thing.
52:52
>> Rob Henderson: Yeah.
52:54
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah. That's quite the wetness. Oh, my goodness.
52:57
Well, let's take a quick break, and we
53:00
can come back and finish up with some, um, fun
53:03
rapid fire quests.
53:04
>> Kevin George: We love rapid fire.
53:13
>> Rob Henderson: Welcome back, everybody, on the Future Christian
53:16
podcast and the Vickers Crossing podcast.
53:19
Thank you for being with us so far today. We've had a
53:22
wonderful conversation. Um, and, um, hopefully
53:25
we can do this again down the road, but as we come to the end
53:28
of our time together, we're gonna do rapid fire.
53:31
>> Kevin George: Yes.
53:31
>> Rob Henderson: I always like to do this once in a while. Right.
53:35
>> Martha Tatarnic: With the sound effects. You have the sound effects?
53:37
>> Rob Henderson: With sound effects, Jeff, sound effects are at no cost to
53:40
you. We'll throw those in for free. So here
53:43
we go. Um, first question I'll throw
53:46
this out to everybody, and I'll answer it, too. But if you
53:49
could interview one person, who would it
53:52
be?
53:52
>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay, well, I'll go first because I actually
53:55
got to interview the person this week that I
53:58
most wanted to interview, and that is Elizabeth
54:01
Schrader Pulitzer, who is the Mary
54:04
Magdalene gospel of John
54:06
Scholar, who, uh, kind of
54:09
went viral a couple of years ago when Diana Butler
54:11
Bass preached about her
54:14
insights into what has maybe been
54:17
missing from our understanding of Mary Magdalene
54:20
and the gospel of John. So she's been on my
54:23
radar, uh, for a couple of years,
54:25
and I've been following her work just with,
54:28
like. I
54:31
just, like, glued to every single thing that she does.
54:34
And so it was definitely a dream come true to get to
54:37
interview her.
54:38
>> Kevin George: Neat.
54:40
>> Rob Henderson: Okay. We didn't specify dead or alive, though, either.
54:43
>> Martha Tatarnic: Oh, yeah.
54:45
>> Rob Henderson: So you could. You could go.
54:47
>> Kevin George: If you could. Hey, who's your dead person, Martha? Let's. Let's get
54:49
that.
54:50
>> Martha Tatarnic: Anne Boleyn. Anne Boleyn. I want to.
54:53
>> Rob Henderson: Oh, there you go. Okay, cool.
54:55
>> Kevin George: If I could. If I was doing dead people, I'd say, uh,
54:58
Dorothy day.
55:00
>> Rob Henderson: Uh.
55:00
>> Kevin George: Oh, good. I'd love to have that.
55:02
>> Rob Henderson: Yeah.
55:03
>> Kevin George: Um, alive people, a, uh, little off the.
55:06
Off the wall. And if you're listening, Bob, uh, give me a call.
55:08
Bob Ray. Uh, I'd like to have Bob. I'd
55:11
love that. Bob Ray on our podcast. In terms of faith in the
55:14
public square intersecting with the public square, particularly
55:17
as it's related to his work post elected, uh,
55:20
politics and being involved in United nations, et
55:23
cetera, uh, I'd love to hear, uh, to talk
55:26
to him about faith, his own jewish faith, his
55:29
expression of that and how that's shaped his,
55:32
uh, public work. Uh, I think
55:35
Bob Ray took a hell of a beating in this province and
55:38
is far better, far better. Has done far more
55:41
for us than he gets credit for. So I'd love to talk to Bob Ray.
55:44
>> Martha Tatarnic: Well, put that out there.
55:46
>> Kevin George: And I did. I did have a chat with him over a dinner
55:49
once, years ago, before we were ever podcasting at a
55:52
roundtable. But I'd love to be able to do an interview with Bob.
55:55
So if you're listening, folks, you can get me in touch with Bob, give him a
55:57
call.
56:01
>> Rob Henderson: Um, so, dad, I had two dead, but,
56:04
um, one was the apostle Paul, because
56:07
I got to ask him some questions about these letters. I'm still
56:09
flummoxed by some of this stuff. And, uh,
56:12
Desmond Tutu. I read some Desmond
56:15
Tutu stuff years ago when I was younger and just
56:18
kind of blew my mind. So, um. And
56:21
alive. Uh, my thought was Barack
56:23
Obama, because I've read
56:26
his book, and I know that faith played a role
56:29
in his vision
56:31
of what America can be.
56:34
Right? And a lot of people didn't like that for a lot of
56:37
different reasons. M which is really a mirror of the
56:40
gospel, isn't it? In a sense that, um,
56:43
it's this, but it can be this. Are we willing to enter
56:46
into that? Um, so I'd love to talk
56:49
to prince.
56:50
>> Martha Tatarnic: Well, I hope for both of you that you get
56:52
both Barack and
56:55
Bob.
56:57
>> Kevin George: Okay. Maybe we can have them on together.
56:59
That will get us some listening. All
57:02
right, so my rapid
57:05
fire question is, uh, when I'm not recording
57:08
my own podcast, I am listening
57:10
to Martha goes first.
57:13
>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay. Well, other than music, which I listen to a lot of
57:16
music, but, um. But in terms of
57:19
podcasts, don't judge me. I like
57:22
to listen to podcasts about reality tv
57:25
and the royal family, and, uh.
57:28
>> Rob Henderson: Oh, cool.
57:28
>> Martha Tatarnic: I am, um. I think that actually we can learn a
57:31
lot about the world that we live in by
57:35
paying, uh, attention to reality tv. But also, I just really
57:38
find it very entertaining, so I
57:41
stand by my choices.
57:43
>> Kevin George: Reality?
57:45
>> Rob Henderson: No, as you should.
57:47
>> Kevin George: I wouldn't have guessed it. But, um, it's okay.
57:52
>> Rob Henderson: Usually I need escapism because I, you know,
57:55
every day is about church and reading, theology and.
57:58
And all this kind of stuff. So, you know, like, I'll just go
58:01
to sports stuff and just listen to.
58:03
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, that's another version of reality tv.
58:05
>> Rob Henderson: You know, but that's exactly. It's reality tv.
58:08
And, uh, and I can't remember the guy's name, and I'm picking
58:11
myself for it in the moment. But he's. He does a
58:13
philosophy podcast, and he gets into this really deep
58:16
philosophical stuff, and it just,
58:19
like, actually helps me fall asleep at night because
58:22
I'm, you know, it just puts you in another realm. And,
58:25
uh, I always find that fascinating. So that's kind of what I. What I
58:28
listen to.
58:28
>> Kevin George: Okay, so. So in no particular order,
58:31
uh, it would be any music.
58:34
Newfoundland, because I do listen to a lot of music.
58:36
Um, meatloaf. Um.
58:39
>> Martha Tatarnic: Oh, good. I support that.
58:42
>> Kevin George: A little bit of meat loaf prints, uh, a little
58:44
bit of prince anything. Um, Bruce
58:47
Springsteen. Uh, and on and on it goes.
58:49
Podcast wise. Uh, and again, I'm not out
58:52
to be judged here, but, uh, I'm a political nut.
58:55
So I listen to the bridge almost daily, which is Peter
58:58
Mansbridge's podcast, um, and,
59:01
uh, which is really exceptional. If you don't listen to it, you
59:04
should listen to it because it is informative about what's going
59:07
on the body politic in this country. And,
59:10
uh, the other podcast, plural I
59:13
listen to by doing the search, is anything with Keith
59:15
Morrison from, uH, Dateline NBC. Yeah,
59:18
I'm a big Keith Morrison man. So. Because he goes, and
59:21
then they found he was
59:24
dead.
59:27
So anything. True crime, but particularly Keith
59:30
Morrison, I turn it on, and I put the earbuds
59:32
in, and it helps me sleep. Keith Morrison talks me to
59:35
sleep many, many nights, so.
59:37
>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay. All right. And final
59:40
rapid fire question. What do we
59:43
most hope our listeners get from our podcast?
59:47
>> Kevin George: For me, I would say, uh, I'll go back to the Keith Morrison thing. I hope
59:50
they get a nap. No, I'm kidding, rob, go ahead.
59:52
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, it puts them to sleep.
59:55
>> Rob Henderson: Yeah, no, my hope is, um,
59:58
that somewhere in the midst of the podcast, they
1:00:01
will feel a bit disturbed, because
1:00:04
that's going to be, uh, a little poking of the
1:00:07
spirit, I think, because sometimes we do talk about things that,
1:00:10
as I said at the outset, that we don't want to and that are
1:00:12
uncomfortable. So if you're
1:00:15
listening, um, and there's a little something that's poking at you going, well,
1:00:18
I don't know about that, then take that and run with
1:00:21
it.
1:00:21
>> Kevin George: Because it's important, I would say,
1:00:24
just to pick up on that. The word I had in mind, similar, I guess, which
1:00:27
makes it good that we're co hosts, but is, I
1:00:30
hope our listeners are provoked. Um, you know,
1:00:33
disturbed, provoked. Um, you know, there's that
1:00:36
business about disturbing the waters in the pool of shalom,
1:00:38
and it's that
1:00:41
go be disturbed, because there's much to
1:00:44
do.
1:00:45
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, that's great. I mean, I would have a
1:00:48
slightly different angle on, I think, a
1:00:51
similar theme, but I think I just really
1:00:54
hope for honesty
1:00:57
and that that doesn't have to be scary like that. We can
1:01:00
talk about scary things that are happening
1:01:03
in the church and in the world and in the life
1:01:06
of faith. Uh, but we don't
1:01:09
have to be. We don't have to
1:01:12
land in a place of despair. We don't have to be
1:01:14
paralyzed. We don't have to, um.
1:01:18
We don't have to feel like we have to run
1:01:21
away from it.
1:01:23
>> Kevin George: Right?
1:01:24
>> Rob Henderson: Right. Good.
1:01:25
>> Martha Tatarnic: So, as we wrap up, let's each note where
1:01:28
listeners can go to find out more about
1:01:31
us and about our podcasts. I assume
1:01:34
that for both of our podcasts,
1:01:37
you know, you can listen wherever you listen to podcasts. Right.
1:01:39
>> Kevin George: It's exactly true. We're on all those platforms, and
1:01:42
you can also um, find us on Twitter or
1:01:45
whatever that's called nowadays. Whatever Elon Musk decides
1:01:48
it is.
1:01:49
>> Rob Henderson: Twitter, Facebook.
1:01:50
>> Kevin George: Uh, uh, just, uh, look up the vicar's
1:01:53
crossing. And our webpage is
1:01:54
thevicorscrossing.com.
1:01:58
>> Rob Henderson: Mhm. And there's, uh, yeah, uh, episodes on there and
1:02:01
links to many of the authors in their books as well, because people
1:02:04
always say to us, where do I get this book? Well, it's all
1:02:07
on the website.
1:02:07
>> Kevin George: Click go.
1:02:09
>> Martha Tatarnic: Right. Yeah. And we're at
1:02:12
futureChristian. Uh.com.
1:02:15
um, and on
1:02:18
Instagram, Facebook,
1:02:21
kind, uh, of all of those regular places.
1:02:25
Um, and we're on
1:02:28
as people as well. Instagram,
1:02:30
Facebook, all of.
1:02:33
All of the usual things. I don't think.
1:02:36
I don't think we're on Twitter or
1:02:39
whatever it is.
1:02:39
>> Kevin George: I know you're not.
1:02:41
>> Martha Tatarnic: I've never been on Twitter, so you're not missing
1:02:43
anything.
1:02:44
>> Kevin George: And, uh, yeah, that's probably. You will
1:02:47
find me individually on these platforms. You won't find Rob
1:02:49
because he's got. He's got a sense to be liberated from that.
1:02:52
So.
1:02:53
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, good for you, Rob.
1:02:54
>> Rob Henderson: I found myself getting too angry. I couldn't want to go to bed angry
1:02:57
every night reading Facebook.
1:02:59
>> Kevin George: Smart, m man.
1:03:00
>> Martha Tatarnic: Yeah, we support that. Uh, well, we always wrap
1:03:03
up on future Christian with a word of peace. So can
1:03:06
we wrap up on our joint podcast with a word of
1:03:09
peace?
1:03:10
>> Kevin George: Sure.
1:03:11
>> Martha Tatarnic: Okay. The peace of God be with
1:03:14
both.
1:03:14
>> Kevin George: Of you and with you, Martha. And thank you
1:03:17
for having us on. And may God's peace be with all who listen to us
1:03:20
today, too.
1:03:20
>> Rob Henderson: And may we go out in peace with each other to love and
1:03:23
serve the Lord wherever we may be.
1:03:25
>> Kevin George: Thanks be to God.
1:03:26
>> Martha Tatarnic: Thanks be to God.
1:03:29
>> Paul: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian podcast.
1:03:32
To learn more about Loren or the podcast,
1:03:35
visit future dash christian.com.
1:03:38
one more thing before you go. Do us a favor
1:03:41
and subscribe to the podcast. And if you're
1:03:44
feeling especially generous, leave a review.
1:03:47
It really helps us get the word out to more people. About the
1:03:49
podcast. The
1:03:52
Future Christian podcast is a production of torn curtain
1:03:55
arts and resonate media. Our episodes were
1:03:58
mixed by Danny Burton and the production support is
1:04:01
provided by Paul Romaglevitt. Thanks
1:04:04
and go in peace.
1:04:05
>> Rob Henderson: Mhm.