Latest / In the Valley of Giants / Escorting the Soul: The Sentinels of Hospice and Palliative Care | Yossi Blieberg | ITVOG Ep. 21

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Escorting the Soul: The Sentinels of Hospice and Palliative Care | Yossi Blieberg | ITVOG Ep. 21 · In the Valley of Giants

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They wish they had more time. That's what they tell you you.
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Know, I'll ask them like what what would you want to do with
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your time? And the, the answers are still
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very much around revolve around the family.
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I wish I could spend more time with my family.
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I wish I can go to Disney World. You know, that's a common one.
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Kids want to go to Disney World with their families.
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The the idea that when time is finite and you recognize that
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it's finite, every small interaction becomes that much
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more meaningful. Hello everyone.
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Joining us today is Yessi Blyberg, a clinical social
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worker who has spent two decades navigating the delicate
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intersections of life, illness, and mortality.
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From the halls of major oncology units and Hospice programs and
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palliative care. Yessi brings a profound depth of
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experience in palliative care and human resilience.
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His journey is rooted in a rigorous education spanning from
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the Shiva's of New York to Yusha Lime, culminating in a Masters
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of Social Work from NYU. We are honored to sit down with
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him to discuss what 20 years on the front lines of care has
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taught him about the human spirit.
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Yessi, welcome to the show. Enjoy everyone.
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Yessi Blyberg, thank you so much for being with us on the show
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today. Yeah, thank you for having me,
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Robert Dorfman. Looking forward, lots, lots that
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we can, I think learn from you. So I think that it's a normal
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human thing to fear death. And I therefore I can't think of
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a scarier time than someone's final moments.
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And for some reason, which we're going to get to the bottom of it
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today, you've decided that you want to be involved in those
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final moments. And I find that heroic.
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Honestly, I find that absolutely heroic.
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The Talmud tells us that to do a kindness for someone who is at
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the end of their life or the end of their life, it is a hessage.
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It's a kindness that is completely true because you
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expect nothing back from them. So therefore the biggest
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altruistic deeds that we can do is to help those at the very
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end. So in your choice of all the
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different things that what you could counsel people about
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because you're a social worker, correct?
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Yes. Yeah.
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So why palliative care? Why have you chosen this
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particular field of helping people through those final
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moments? Out of all the other people that
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you could be counseling? Why?
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Why this moment? Yeah, great question.
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It's, it's actually, you know, it's, it's funny because a lot
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of times when I interview people to, to join the current
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organization that I, I work with primarily, I always ask them
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like, are are you crazy? Like what, why, why do you want
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to do this? And, and usually what I'm
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looking for is that kind of that personal connection to it.
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Years ago, I remember in grad school, one of the great writers
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in, in the social work realm and end of life.
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Her name is, oh gosh, I'm blanking.
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Her name is Shirley Otis Green. Sorry, I'm looking at her book
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on my shelf over there. She she said primarily there we
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are a group of wounded healers. Interesting.
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What does that mean? So in other words, that is it's
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because death is a universal experience.
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It's something that many of us experience and just kind of, you
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know, go along with it. And then there are those of us
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who experience death and decide to kind of help others in a way
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based on our experiences. So we can, you know, learn from
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what's happened to us and be the people that we needed.
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So I so I'll just kind of answer your question and also kind of
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mention someone. So I was 17 years old, a little
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younger, 16 maybe, when my mother was diagnosed with
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cancer. She died shortly after I turned
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20. I was the second of five kids.
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I, I have one older brother and my younger sister at the time my
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mother died, was only 10 years old with two more brothers in
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between. And, you know, so we, we, I
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really saw the ways that it was affecting, you know, her illness
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was affecting my siblings, certainly affecting my father.
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You know, how my mother changed. We were very, very blessed.
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Have a wonderful, wonderful social worker who actually came
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and worked with our family named Mesh Borowski, Oliver Shalom.
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And he had died not that long ago.
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And I, I said, you know, that's, that's what I want to do.
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At the time I was thinking I would do accounting.
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I would, you know, any number of more traditional Jewish career
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fields. But I decided like no, that's
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that's what I want to do. Was that, was that a light bulb
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moment like immediately after coming out of that experience?
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Like this is what I want to do the rest of my life.
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Yeah, pretty much. I I, you know, up on that, you
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know, when she when she had died, I already started doing
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some college courses in accounting and all of a sudden
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some some in computers. And I said like this, this, Nah,
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this isn't, this isn't right. This is not what I want to be
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doing. I want to be doing something
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more hands on helping people. And so I initially thought I was
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going to be a psychologist. That's what I had wanted to do.
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And one of my professors in Turo said, you know, I had told him
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the story and what I was looking for.
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He said, Nah, that's social work.
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And so I did something a little old fashioned.
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Nowadays everyone goes down line, but I actually went down
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to NYU and Fordham and spoke to people in their admissions
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offices and did that and decided to go to go for SO.
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You said that you saw changes in your entire family as your
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mother passed away. You don't have to go into those
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changes if you don't want to, but whatever those changes were,
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feel free to share them if you do feel comfortable.
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But do you see that parallel and impatience that that you have as
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well? Or do you feel you went through
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a very specific set of circumstances?
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I mean, every, everyone's circumstances are very specific
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to be honest, right? Everyone's, everyone has their
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own way of dealing because every family has their own set of
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rules and there's every, every family has their own dynamic and
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the way they relate to each other, the way they talk to each
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other. So every situation is really
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specific, but I, I think that one of the things that I really
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try to work with people on is something that I, I saw that,
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you know, we were kind of working in that direction, which
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is rather than all of us going through the same situation, you
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know, with our own parallel processes where we all kind of
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went through it alone. I think people definitely cope
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better when the whole family goes through the experience
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together. You know, when you have open
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dialogue and people can talk openly and and you know, in
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about their feelings over a meal, you know, whether it's a
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weekday meal, a Shabbos meal, or even just a lunch in the middle
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of the week, because that's when everyone could be there.
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You know, I think people have really can have really very
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different and much more empowering experiences with
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their loved ones, with their family members so that they're
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not just coping by themselves and going through this alone.
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Break down a little bit and and this this one I know is from
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total ignorance on my part. Don't worry, I'm ignorant.
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I'm going to be in this entire conversation because I don't
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know my. We're all learning.
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Going through losing your mother, which was and for those
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of you that have not lost your parents, I have not.
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I cannot imagine and I will not imagine until I lose my own.
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But how can you go through an experience of losing a parent
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and be like, yes, I want to go through that again with someone
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else? Is it because is it?
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Is it because you immediately saw that silver?
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I wouldn't say silver lining, it's the wrong term, but you
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immediately saw your utility. Was that it or was it just the
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the burning desire to do it? Like what?
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What was it? Yeah, I mean, it wasn't, you
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know, it was a light bulb moment, but it didn't happen.
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Right, like just to break it down for myself and the viewers
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more more than yourself because you already you already know the
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answer. But if I were to escape a
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dungeon of some masochist, you know, go through a horrible evil
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experience, as soon as I walked out of the house, I would be
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like, Oh my gosh, I want to visit like 30 other torture
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dungeons and help people out of that.
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I'd be like, I don't want to have anything to do with that
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ever again. Yeah, like I said, that's why I
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always ask people like, are you crazy?
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Like why do you want to? Why do you want to do this?
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Yeah. I mean, maybe there is a, a
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masochistic tendency in it. Maybe you know, I I really think
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that a lot of it really came from this place of that I was
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very lucky to have, you know, good help and good support, and
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I know a lot of people don't have that.
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For those who know my family, you know, they'll, they'll tell
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you like we, we're big communicators.
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Sometimes too much people will say, you know, so it it's, it's
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kind of like, you know, I remember even like people
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telling me at the time I go don't say cancer, you know,
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Yanimakla, like there's a lot of things that people do meaning to
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be helpful. I mean, I remember.
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So my mother died. It's like Kravteskashvan is her
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yard saying, OK. So I remember meeting someone
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that I knew from yeshiva at the mikvah.
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It's always like a funny way to start a story, right?
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I met them at the mikvah, rushed on air of Yom Kippur.
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And he knew my mother was sick. And he was he meant well.
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I mean, he was a Rebbe and he meant well.
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And he said, you know, like, I know she's really sick.
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Like, you know, you should really like think about taking
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on more things. And I just like really struck
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like, well, that's not very helpful.
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Like, OK, maybe he means well. I'm sure he means well, you
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know, like, is that really helpful?
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You know, and I, I knew that a lot of people had gone through
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things more of like that, where people who don't know what to
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say, say the wrong thing, meaning well, not meaning ill
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will in any way. When I was sitting Shiva, some
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of the more helpful visitors were from those who had lost
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parents at a relatively young age and had, you know, again, a
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lot of it wasn't like, OK, here's exactly what you do, but
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here is what terrible things well meaning people will say to
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you. Will say right?
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You know, like, like one of my grandmother's friends who asked
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my father, oh, you're, you know, you're 4748, OK.
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Oh, you can get remarried yet, you know, And my father was
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like, do you mind if we finish Shiva?
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Like, you know, so like that that that's kind of more of
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where where I was, what I was thinking, you know, like I had
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this experience, different people had similar experiences
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and obviously everyone has their own experiences, but, you know,
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maybe I could use this in a way that would be helpful for people
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into something that they need rather than what they get.
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Right, right. OK, Amazing, beautiful answer.
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Beautiful answer. How do?
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You not have time. It wasn't this light bulb moment
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I did, you know, from there, I, I went there to stroll for a
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little over a year, you know, was back in yeshiva.
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I was only doing college at night.
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It's like it wasn't just like, OK, boom, I'm going back to
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grad. School Jessie you were super
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from You're super from Jessie. Yeah, yeah.
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I want to make sure I get that in there OK.
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So I think that's a beautiful story.
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That's a, it's a redemption story.
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That's a story of, of being down on the bottom and, and being
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able to make it out and saying no one has to go through that,
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you know, alone. I think that's really beautiful.
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And that's, that's part of the reason that makes you heroic.
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But how do you not get depressed doing that service day in, day
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out? Because you know when you're
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seeing a patient, they're not going to get better.
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That's true. I mean we do have those who do I
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want to just you know clarify really are on Hospice to
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stabilize. I didn't know that.
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Yeah. How common?
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How often is that? Not very common, but you know, a
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few little care of you know. Oh, gosh, thank you.
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There we go. So it it does happen, You know,
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people do stabilize. They last longer than we think
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they will. You know, we're we're only
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humans. We don't know.
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It does happen. But OK, so the vast majority
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though, sounds like the vast. Majority yeah, absolutely once
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once I've start working with them at that point usually that
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does mean that they don't have very long left in their lives
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and the families are kind of in that that stage where they're
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prepared or they're never really prepared and that that's OK too.
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But I, I think really good self-care is is really
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important. It sounds very cliche.
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You know, a lot of times people say they go self-care and they
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think like, OK, I'm gonna go to the gym and I'm gonna work out
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and I'm gonna, it's, it's, it's not necessarily, doesn't
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necessarily have to be anything that dramatic, but it's really
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just like deliberately taking breaks, taking care of yourself,
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spending time with family, taking days off, etcetera.
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That's that. That's your ticket, meaning
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that's how you don't get affected.
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That's it. How about in the moment?
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In the moment, how could you not get affected?
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Well, I can't imagine. So that's the thing.
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This is what I don't get. I can't imagine being in the
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moment, getting affected and then moving on from that.
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So there's a there's a great quote that I will sometimes use.
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Her name was Rachel Rahman, who's a writer.
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She would did a lot of work at end of life.
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And she wrote that, you know, for for someone to work in the
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end of life field and not be affected is like, you know, some
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walking someone walking through water and not getting wet.
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You know, I mean, to, to be a human in those experiences, in
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those homes, in those moments means we're going to be affected
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in different ways. And I think that, you know,
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remembering that it's not us, you know, we, we get to walk out
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of that room, we get to walk out of that home.
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There is sometimes that that helps just that bit of
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remembrance. But also, you know, we're,
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we're, it's, it's, it's funny. I had this conversation with my
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my uncle, my uncle's a cardiologist and we talked a lot
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about that, the idea of empathy. You know, if you're too
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empathic, when your patients die, you know, you'll be just
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this broken subroach in the mess.
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You won't be able to help anybody.
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If you're not empathetic enough. You'll have just, you know,
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they'll say, oh, you have 0 bedside manner and no one will
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ever want to talk to you. So everyone, every clinician,
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regardless of their discipline has to find that middle ground.
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You know, how could I be empathic enough to be effective
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with enough detachment that I'm still able to go on and and move
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on to the next visit, the next home, the next patient, the next
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family? Do you work with different ages?
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I mean, are you working with adults and children or mostly
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just adults or? I've worked with people who are
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dying of all ages, from teens, you know, late teens to just
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yesterday I saw a woman who was 101 and she's not even close to
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the oldest woman that I've ever seen.
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Wow, really? What's the oldest person you've
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ever seen A. 108. Wow.
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OK, that's great. May you see, may you see older
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people. Let's hope we see older people.
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I. Mean, yeah, I remember I was
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working with this lady once and she was telling me, Oh yeah, my
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kids sister, my kids sister. And I'm like, you know, you're
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103. How old is your kids sister?
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Oh, she's 98. A young It's all real, indeed.
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OK, so there's two very uncomfortable questions that I
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want to ask, but it's the one that I'm the most interested in.
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And I feel they're uncomfortable because they really get to the
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crux of the issue, which is when you're at the end, I feel like
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people are the most vulnerable and not in a manipulative, evil
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way or anything like that, God forbid.
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But you know, I feel like people probably are reflecting on their
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life's choices in those moments and have what to say.
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What are they telling you What? What is the thing that you hear
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over and over again? I'll tell you a funny story.
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It's related to this. It's not really this, but it
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really changed me quite a bit. I was in yeshiva.
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It's like the dumbest thing I've ever done, but I was in yeshiva.
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Those are always the best stories by the.
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Way I know, I know and now I'm going to do it, you know, in
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public, which is of course better, but I was learning from
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my have Rusa and I only slept, you know, I didn't sleep that
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much the night before. I wasn't crazy like now I get a
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lot less sleep, but whatever. But then I was tired.
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I don't know, it was like 20 or something, 19 and I'm wondering
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if I have Rusa and I'm just I I just complained to him.
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I was like, you know, I'm, I'm tired.
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I'm just like really tired. It's hard to focus.
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I'm really tired. And like I complained for a
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solid 1015 seconds, but I didn't just say it was really tired.
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Like I'm so tired. It's I'm bombed.
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I can barely focus. And sitting next to me Kavua
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like all the time. There's this dentist from New
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York that he like worked overtime or whatever it was that
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the first half of the day he could take off and come learn
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literally in the yeshiva and he like paid someone to be his
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cover. So it was a really beautiful
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thing. And he, he looked at me and he
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said, you know, I might be a dentist, but I've actually been
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around a lot of people that have passed away.
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This is my experience. I'm like, OK, he says, you know
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what? No one's ever told me.
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It's like what he says. They never told me at the end, I
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wish I slept because you can sleep more when you're dead.
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You know, which maybe I'm just trying to add a little bit of
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levity. But I think, I do think I do
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think that he has a point in the sense that, yeah, no one is
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complaining at the end of their life that they wish they would
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have just, you know, slept more of it away.
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Now, that's very minor and I, I hope fairly obvious to anyone
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who's really thinking about it. But what real gems are people
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sharing at the end of their lives?
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You know, I'll tell you, first of all, there is a lot of
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levity. You know, you'd be surprised
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that, you know, people suddenly, you know, find their sense of
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humor back when they're facing their own deaths.
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It's it's always, it's very, it's always very interesting.
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But anyway, the joke that I usually say is no one ever told
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me I wish I spent more time at the office.
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You know, that's that's always like the one thing I always say,
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you know a lot. But you know what, though?
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The even even that's important though, because there are
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people, yeah, that work all the time and they never like, they
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barely see their kids. And, and maybe you think, well,
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I just need to just one more push or, you know, I'll, I'll
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get that, you know, $1,000,000 of that, that big upgrade.
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I'll do this next business deal. And though they're, they are
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choosing that, I feel, I feel like I'm probably guilty of this
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too. In fact, I know I am.
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I feel we do choose our professions over our children.
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And a lot of times that's just wrong.
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So the fact that that people don't say that and say, you
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know, no one says that they, that they work, they wish they
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work more. I I think that does mean
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something. Yeah, I mean, that's, that's I
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remember the old, it's an old story from the Havitzkayim that
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he said, I wanna meet these kids.
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People are always saying I'm working for my kids.
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I'm working for the kids. I'm working for these kids.
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Like, who are these kids? There's so many generations have
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passed. These kids haven't, you know,
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haven't existed yet. But but but it's there.
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Yeah. There's definitely truth to the
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joke, you know, is that people definitely say that they wish
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they had spent more time with their families.
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They wish they took more time off.
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You know, they're looking back on pictures, on vacations.
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And I wish I took more vacations, you know, yes, we do
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have from patients who say, you know, I wish I learned more.
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I wish I did more. I wish I gave more to DACA.
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Obviously, there's there's, you know, a lot of that as well.
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But you know, more than anything else, what they the thing that I
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hear more than anything else is I wish I let I spent more time
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with my family. I wish I told my kids more that
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I love them. I wish I told them more that I
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was proud of them, you know? I wish I told them more how much
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they meant to me and how much they enriched my life rather
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than complaining about how hard I had to work to pay for this or
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pay for that, or work long hours that they can go to school or
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camp a Shiva, whatever. Like a lot of it really is about
19:14
family. That's what people seem to
19:17
prioritize more than almost anything else.
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So what the heck's wrong with us?
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Why don't we do that? Why can't we get to know their
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lives and not have regrets? Well, I think that's part of
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part of what gets us up in the morning is that we don't want to
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think about death, right? Because I'll tell us that it's
19:33
better to go to a House of Shiva than a House of feasting
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because, you know, that's what helps us remember.
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Obviously if that was an easy thing for us to do, we wouldn't
19:43
have to be told to do it. I suppose, but it I just feel
19:48
that people say hindsight is 2020.
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I just got off the phone with it as Shyla from a couple in
19:53
America that is going through a tremendous amount of pain
19:55
because of their their child is is not doing well from kite wise
19:59
and is trying to marry out of the family.
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And they were in a tremendous amount of pain.
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And one thing that they said over and over to me was, you
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know, we wish we made this decision or that decision and
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it's our fault, which I which I don't think it is at all, but I
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digress. The point that I'm trying to
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bring out is they kept saying, well, hindsight's, you know,
20:15
it's 2020, so that well that, that maybe, maybe so.
20:20
But that's not how life works. But that is how life works when
20:22
it comes to this thing. Meaning, if everyone is telling
20:24
us we have like people at the end of their lives, I feel are
20:27
like they're, they're oracles in a way.
20:30
They're telling us at the end, look, this is what really
20:32
matters. Trust us, we can tell you
20:34
because we're there and we're not listening.
20:37
Why are we not listening? I mean, I think for for a lot of
20:40
these folks, the barriers are down.
20:41
I think a lot of us put up, you know, kind of like protective
20:44
barriers are against ourselves. You know, we have an image that
20:46
we think we want to convey. I'm this kind of person.
20:49
I'm that kind of person. And what I really always liked
20:51
working with older people, you know, is certainly when they're
20:54
dying, is that the barriers are down.
20:56
There's no facade. You're getting the real deal.
20:59
You're getting their unvarnished opinion.
21:01
They're not afraid to tell you, you know, what it is.
21:03
I mean, I had a lady I remember I used to see, you know,
21:05
sometimes I would go see her on Fridays.
21:07
A Jewish woman, not necessarily from, but very, you know, old
21:12
school, what I would say, old school conservative, you know,
21:15
and she would say, did you bring her wife flowers this week?
21:17
Did you bring her flowers for Shabbos?
21:18
Did you take her out to eat this week?
21:20
You know, like she would hold me accountable for kind of like my,
21:23
you know, my actions. And, you know, I think that the
21:29
big part of it is that we don't necessarily want to think about
21:31
it that way. If we would, if we would really,
21:34
to be honest, I think if we would walk around all day
21:36
thinking that any moment could really be our last minute on of,
21:40
of, on life, of earth, on earth of life, you know what I mean?
21:44
I think I think we wouldn't be able to really function.
21:46
Why? I think, I think we have to have
21:48
this health. Yes.
21:49
Have you, have you never been to Disney?
21:52
Have you never been to Disney World?
21:53
Yes. Is that what you're saying?
21:54
It's funny the. Last you know, you know you you
21:57
know the trip's gonna end eventually, right?
21:59
You know, it will end eventually.
22:01
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's been a while.
22:05
But I think a lot of people don't can't think that way.
22:07
I don't think if you, if you really think about statistics
22:11
and safety, I mean, first of all, no one would live in artist
22:13
role. No one would live in New York
22:15
City. You wouldn't certainly wouldn't
22:16
want to get on a bus anywhere in New York City or artist role,
22:19
right? And like, you know, you'd be
22:21
walking around as. AI love you Yossi cause 'cause
22:23
you seem like a wise man and a fellow Jew but I super disagree.
22:28
OK. I try to think about death
22:30
often. Well, in your life.
22:32
I think you're in the minority, Robert Dorfman.
22:35
Well, perhaps, but perhaps it's part of the minority that that I
22:39
should be proud of and not alt Skyva, but because I'm doing it
22:42
right. One of the things that I,
22:43
there's two reasons I think about death.
22:45
I'll share with you something very personal. 1 is that death
22:47
still haunts me. And throughout the years, it
22:50
haunts me less. And I find that things that
22:52
haunt you, that more you, you sweep them under the rug, the
22:56
more they just fester. So you need to confront the
22:59
things that that scare you the most out.
23:01
I'll share a quick story. When I was I was severely
23:04
injured a horrible back injury years ago and I was confined to
23:08
my bed. I was in the hospital 7 times
23:10
and needed this like experimental surgery but I wish
23:13
I'm out of it now but I will. I had to get a believe it was a
23:17
cat scan on high level like high doses of morphine.
23:22
It had almost no effect and to stay still was insanely painful.
23:26
In any event, they did it and I was screaming and in like this
23:30
horrifying pain that felt like torture.
23:32
And ever since then, well, for a period of time, I, I became
23:35
claustrophobic. I didn't want to be
23:36
claustrophobic anymore. So instead of being scared about
23:39
being claustrophobic, I went with my son.
23:41
I mean, went to the Barkova caves here in Bachemish.
23:43
I'm not sure you've ever been, but Barkova, who led the
23:46
rebellion after the destruction of the Second Temple.
23:49
So he created a whole bunch of catacombs underground and he had
23:52
this guerrilla force and the size of these like little
23:56
tunnels that they made underground for this guerrilla
23:58
warfare. You cannot stand in it.
24:00
You can maybe crawl in it. And people back then were a bit
24:03
smaller. So if someone in front of you
24:05
stops, you are dumb. If, if, if both sides collapse,
24:08
you are for sure dead. Like there's no that you
24:10
wouldn't. So I remember shivering, forcing
24:12
myself to do it, but I did it and three minutes later I wasn't
24:16
scared enough scared of it anymore.
24:17
But I, I do think that, that it is better to, to directly, to
24:21
directly face it. So that's one reason.
24:22
But the next reason is that it reminds me to cherish every
24:25
moment because that moment will come again.
24:28
So I live in RT Thrall in spite of that danger.
24:31
And sometimes I will, I will make decisions in spite of the
24:35
fact that it might not be the safest for me in a variety, you
24:38
know, of, of different things. Like I partially tore my ACL and
24:43
my kid was really dying for me to jump on the trampoline with
24:45
him. And it meant something like very
24:47
much to him. So I jumped on the trampoline
24:49
and I was out for a day, but I knew that he really needed it at
24:52
that time. So no, why can't?
24:54
Why shouldn't we, You know, you're the expert.
24:56
Why shouldn't we think about death more?
24:58
And instead of it being with him, like, Oh my gosh, that's
25:00
the end, you know, why can't it just be our we?
25:02
Should let me be clear, I think we should I think you're right
25:05
and I think that people who've had experiences like you have
25:08
definitely have a different experience than many people
25:12
People have never experienced scares or been afraid of losing
25:15
something or been in a hospital setting for a while.
25:19
You know, there's, there's just they don't necessarily get it
25:22
that life is precious. Life is short.
25:24
Take advantage of it while you can.
25:26
You know, I think most people can't simply because the fact
25:29
that they would be just this crippled, this crippling fear
25:33
that many people would have of it.
25:34
I mean, you look at the way people don't want to say the
25:36
word cancer, You know, they're afraid of can get it.
25:39
They're afraid of iron horror. I'm, I'm not sure exactly what
25:41
the reason is, but I think a lot of people just don't necessarily
25:46
have that ability to sit in that fear that any moment this could
25:53
be it. So if not having the ability is
25:57
the issue, why not go through training in order to gain that
26:01
ability? And maybe that's what's that's
26:02
what's necessary. I just feel that it's so again,
26:05
maybe it's the ignorance, but I feel so blinding to go through
26:07
life and not be thinking about that.
26:08
Every moment is so special. Yeah, and yet people don't,
26:13
right? They still spend all this time
26:15
at the office. They work harder and harder and
26:17
never see their kids and never take vacations.
26:19
And then they're busy with a million things, right?
26:22
I mean, yeah, it's a really great point.
26:24
I I think that resilience is a really amazing thing for people
26:29
to have. I think if we would train
26:31
everyone on how to be resilient and how to face the challenges
26:34
that they're going to encounter in life on a regular basis, you
26:37
know, sure, everyone would be stronger and and healthier and
26:41
able to face whatever challenges life throws their way.
26:45
But sometimes, you know, people need to have those experiences
26:48
just kind of show up and be presented with them for them to
26:51
really find out what their coping skills will look like.
26:57
Yeah, but YESSI, why can't we? Want to wish bad things on
26:59
people? That's that's exactly, that's
27:02
exactly what I was going to say. So let's flip it.
27:04
Why don't we have Yessi Blyberg? OK, go up now.
27:07
We have him on. Why can't we say social workers
27:10
want you to think more about death?
27:12
Why can't we do that? All right, I'm in fourth.
27:15
Let's do it. Let's do trainings.
27:17
I'm serious. I don't think, I don't think
27:20
it'd be so bad for people to have seminars where instead of
27:22
confronting death is like God forbid, when their grandparent
27:26
or or parent or or God forbid child, you know, gets some sort
27:29
of horrible accident or has cancer.
27:31
And it's literally in their face without a moment's notice.
27:34
Why not educate people more about death and heck, instead of
27:36
just the, you know, that resiliency, which is important
27:39
because everyone has to face death at one point or another in
27:42
some fashion. But on top of that, you'll get
27:43
all of the gains of, you know what?
27:45
Death is real. I should be thinking a lot more
27:47
about my life. Yeah, I yeah, it's a good point.
27:49
I mean, I know Kaimeru him from the Aguda is doing some work,
27:53
you know, and and raising awareness of thinking about it,
27:56
even if it's, you know, more in terms of having advanced
27:59
directives ready and and that people should know what
28:01
decisions to make. Yeah, good also has a program
28:04
called Zahav where they're helping people learn about some
28:07
of the challenges of getting older.
28:09
I mean, so there is I think now more than in the last 10-15
28:14
years, more of an awareness that way we have to start thinking
28:17
about this some of it from the more practical aspects.
28:20
Sure, but also just some of the ideas that, you know, we we need
28:24
to kind of raise awareness that we're not going to stick around
28:27
forever. You know, we need to, we need to
28:30
live life that we're, we're not comfort.
28:34
Yeah, all I'm saying is that I feel like that should be
28:36
standard. I don't think that that you
28:38
should have to call up the good and say, hey, where's this
28:41
workshop? I feel that US is Ribonim and
28:44
and perhaps, you know, the social work field and
28:46
psychologists and and parents. I think we should be like, I'll
28:50
tell you, growing up, my father spoke to me about death fairly
28:52
often. My father is not afraid of death
28:53
at all. And he does a lot of things
28:55
within the community of death, which I'll let him keep his car
28:59
and they will take it from him. But I felt that it was like, so
29:03
it's so critical in the formation of the adult that I
29:05
became. I do think that it's for our
29:08
viewers out there. I do think that it makes sense.
29:10
If someone would set up an initiative to really introduce
29:13
death in a much healthier way with very knowledgeable people
29:16
like Jessie Blyburn, I think that would be a great.
29:18
Let's do it. Let's start it here.
29:20
You heard it here first, you know.
29:23
Sure. OK, well, going back to speaking
29:25
about people at the end of their lives.
29:26
So you told me what older people say.
29:28
What about younger people? What about children and
29:30
teenagers? What do they say at the end?
29:35
Time. I wish they had more time.
29:38
That's what they tell you you. Know, I'll ask them like what
29:42
would you want to do with your time?
29:44
And the, the answers are still very much around revolve around
29:47
the family. I wish I could spend more time
29:49
with my family. I wish I can go to Disney World.
29:51
You know, that's a common one. Kids want to go to Disney World
29:54
with their families. Luckily, there's good
29:57
organizations that have been able to make that happen for
29:59
some folks. But the the idea that when time
30:03
is finite and you recognize that it's finite, every small
30:08
interaction becomes that much more meaningful.
30:10
So if you talk about an initiative to kind of raise that
30:12
awareness, right, I think that we'd have a whole next
30:15
generation of people who, you know, maybe they're not so glued
30:18
to their phones, maybe they're not so glued to their office
30:21
devices, you know, maybe 430. All right, I don't need to be
30:24
here anymore. I'm now going to sit with my
30:26
kids and just ask them, tell me everything about your day,
30:30
right? And that and that's what kids
30:31
want. Kids just want that undivided
30:34
attention from their parents and not to always focus on the
30:38
illness, you know, the things they can't do anymore.
30:41
But just that, that presence, that being there together can't
30:45
put a value on that. Why do you think the common
30:49
theme amount among kids is time and the common thing theme
30:53
amongst older people is more time with family?
30:56
Is it maybe specific when you're older because they know what
30:59
they want that time spent on versus kids don't really know
31:02
what's meaningful to them yet? Yeah.
31:04
I mean, kids are still forming their identities.
31:06
I mean, again, some of the teenagers that I've worked with,
31:08
you know, they had a better sense of what they wanted.
31:10
I mean, you know, whether it's, you know, a specific event to do
31:13
something in particular. But certainly the younger kids,
31:15
like they, they just want their parents sit and read them a
31:18
book, you know? You know, that's something so
31:21
simple. And I think some of the older
31:23
folks, they've kind of seen what people want and they've realized
31:27
they've missed those opportunities.
31:30
You know, they've missed. Think about it, right?
31:33
You know, we work so hard. We buy our kids this toy or this
31:37
device, whatever. And like, what do they really
31:39
want? They just want us to sit and
31:40
read a book with them on the couch.
31:41
That's so important. That's so wild.
31:43
Just $0.00. And yet it's the most precious
31:47
thing. And yet it's the most precious
31:49
thing in people's times in lives.
31:51
So they they never tell you. I really wish that I could eat a
31:54
treat right now, or I really wish it.
31:57
Happens, you know, Sure. Sure, OK, but in general I just
32:00
want to spend more time with my parents.
32:02
Yeah, that's it time. Find that so damning for
32:06
parents, including myself? Well.
32:08
Tell me about it. Because then you really know,
32:11
meaning kids want a whole bunch of stuff and half the things
32:14
they don't really want and you should give it to them.
32:16
We'll make them sick. But if at the end the kids are
32:18
all saying really mostly the same thing is that I just want
32:20
you to read me a story, it's because that's all it is.
32:23
That's it. They just want that want to be
32:24
with their parents. Wow, that's amazing.
32:29
OK, how about this, Let's switch it around.
32:31
What do we need to know? End of life is complex, and you
32:34
even shared earlier that people make all sorts of really crazy
32:38
mistakes. So tell me some common ones and
32:40
then maybe educate our listeners a little bit, including myself,
32:43
of what we should be doing. How do you walk through a family
32:46
member, a loved one through the through the end of life
32:49
experience? Yeah, so great, great questions.
32:54
You know, in, in terms of try to like answer this in some
32:59
semblance of an order. So correct me or stop me if I
33:01
start rambling. You know, more than anything
33:04
else, I think that the awareness of time being finite really
33:10
starts to sharpen what matters to people a lot more.
33:14
Things just become a lot more clear in their focus.
33:18
So certainly when someone is diagnosed with something that's,
33:22
you know, life limiting or can be chronic, you know, some
33:26
cancer diagnosis used to be like, you know, considered
33:28
terminal diagnosis. You know, many are now
33:31
considered chronic or treatable. You know, that we're not
33:34
necessarily talking about folks in those kind of conditions.
33:38
I mean, these are people that can live with these illnesses
33:40
for many, many years. You know that's a sham, that
33:42
there should continue to be more cures available for things.
33:45
I. Mean, but you know, we're
33:47
talking about people that have reached the stage where they're
33:49
told either, you know, there is no more treatment available or
33:53
treatment will start to do more harm than good.
33:56
The thing that I really, I always encourage people to do
33:57
first and foremost is to talk to a Rev, you know, whether it's
34:00
their own Rev or whether it's, you know, some type.
34:05
Because I, I think that we might have one sense of what we
34:08
consider to be important and the secular world still has
34:12
something else they may consider to be important.
34:14
So, and by that I mean the the something called quality of
34:17
life, you know, so for example, a doctor might not offer someone
34:23
a treatment because they think, well, it's not going to give
34:28
them quality of life, but holically it might give them
34:32
more time and thereof might tell them to do it.
34:37
So, you know, again, I remember hearing a shear years ago from
34:41
Irby Weiner, from Eric Cicero, you know, he said like any
34:44
treatment that will just bring in more suffering.
34:47
You don't necessarily have to go and do it, you know, But what
34:51
I'm saying is, to me, I always want people to have kind of a
34:54
full picture and they should have, you know, Dashter involved
34:57
in deciding if this is something that I should pursue further.
35:01
Absolutely. So that's that's something I
35:03
always tell people. So there's lots of organizations
35:07
their own ribbon and like start somewhere.
35:09
Don't just say, OK, I'm done because of, you know, quality of
35:13
life. That's not necessarily like a
35:16
sun that fits our hush guffa necessarily.
35:19
Now one of the things that I do encourage people to do is to
35:23
find out if whatever treatment they're doing or if they're in a
35:27
hospital, if there is something called palliative care.
35:30
Now, palliative care usually in a hospital setting, there aren't
35:33
that many home based palliative care programs in America.
35:38
There used to be more, but the idea of palliative care is you
35:41
can receive curative treatment while at the same time focusing
35:46
on maintaining quality of life. So living pain free, having
35:51
symptoms managed, getting good pain medication at home etcetera
35:56
or even in a. Hospital.
35:57
Why is that? Why is that?
35:58
Why is that not standard? The implication is that it's not
36:00
standard. You know, it should be standard
36:03
since one of the things that the Affordable Care Act did was make
36:07
the palliative care option mandated in healthcare world
36:11
but. Absolutely.
36:12
I feel like that's an ABC thing. It should be.
36:15
However, you know, you have to know that there are just a lot
36:17
of people who are still resistant #1 because of they
36:20
think that palliative care means we're going to, you know, give
36:23
them a pill and they're going to, we're going to Doctor
36:24
Kevorkian them, you know, we're going to physician aid in dying.
36:29
That's very much not what it's about.
36:31
And two, many of the people treating people who are at the
36:34
end of life, again, they mean well, it's never malicious, but
36:40
they don't necessarily think about it in the same way that,
36:45
you know, you say would just be like AB CS, for example, an
36:49
oncologist, They're very focused on is this treatment going to
36:52
cure them? Is this treatment going to give
36:54
them any kind of meaningful tumor shrinkage?
36:57
You know, they're not necessarily thinking is they're
37:00
not necessarily thinking, is this chemo going to make them
37:03
nauseous? Are they going to lose their
37:04
hair? Are they going to be
37:05
uncomfortable? Are they still going to be in
37:07
pain because of their chemo? It's just.
37:10
What a massive OK but that's. I'm sorry but what you're
37:13
telling me is ridiculous. I know you're just trying to
37:15
explain the other side, but no. Is that not a prerequisite of
37:17
giving someone medical advice knowing knowing the full
37:20
picture? It should be educated.
37:22
I wish I could tell you. I wish I could tell you it is.
37:24
But that's, listen, I've been doing this a while.
37:26
I could tell you these conversations are still
37:28
happening. That's a massive failure in the
37:31
medical system. It absolutely is.
37:33
It absolutely is. So, you know, I think people,
37:39
Sims used to have that slogan. The educated consumer is our
37:41
best customer. I think it always, you know, I
37:44
think it matters a lot that people go for second opinions,
37:48
third opinions, you know, have full pictures of, you know,
37:52
their medical team, ask questions, you know, is this
37:56
really something that I'm going to have to do, I'm going to have
37:57
to suffer with this treatment? Is there no other option?
38:00
Or is there other way that I can still get comfort measures, that
38:03
I can still get medication to keep me comfortable throughout
38:05
this process? Does the does the insurance side
38:09
of it ever give you trouble? Like if someone's under
38:11
tremendous amount of pain and they could do something that
38:13
will alleviate the pain, but the insurances will cover it because
38:15
they know you're dying anyway. Not necessarily.
38:18
I mean in America, you know, certainly the Hospice programs
38:20
are all covered by Medicare, most private insurances.
38:24
The only time that ever became an issue is when a lot of the
38:27
home based palliative care programs that I was talking
38:30
about, you know, they were basically billing not as a
38:32
palliative care program, but as individual medical visits.
38:35
And you and you also have a lot of doctors and pharmacies who
38:38
don't necessarily have experience dispensing the types
38:42
of medications that are needed to keep people comfortable with
38:45
late stage illnesses like cancer or even heart disease.
38:49
There's a lot of lot of illnesses and diagnosis that
38:52
cause pain towards the end of a person's life and just not all
38:56
doctors or specialists in how to manage that pain.
38:59
So it's not necessarily limitation on insurance per SE,
39:03
but it is, you know, a question of access to the right
39:06
physician, to the right pharmacy.
39:09
OK, so I know we're on the list of of what to do for us to help
39:14
people that are going through the end of life experience.
39:16
But I'm going to digress a little bit because what you just
39:18
told me to still really to be honest, boggles the mind,
39:20
disturbs me. What can we change in the
39:23
medical system to make it a far more supportive for people at
39:25
the end of life? We need to have open and honest
39:29
conversations. Who's we?
39:32
Well, let's say the medical establishment, physicians, nurse
39:35
practitioners, P. As you know, I I say physics.
39:37
Like conferences? Is that what you want?
39:40
I think that, you know, I've been to some really great
39:42
conferences on end of life care and, you know, they're not
39:46
attended by primary care physicians in the community.
39:50
You know, they're not attended by hospitalists.
39:51
Very often the people who are the front lines meeting these
39:54
people, you know, emergency room doctors, you know, they're
39:58
they're not necessarily having these conversations.
40:01
They're saying, oh, you know what?
40:02
This person's at end of life. Let me get a palliative Dr. talk
40:05
to him. It's just a, call it a
40:08
fragmented healthcare system where you have just a lot of
40:12
providers. And people just don't want to be
40:15
the one to have that conversation, right?
40:17
We talked about talked about people not wanting to confront
40:19
death, their own mortality. A lot of healthcare workers are
40:22
guilty of the same. You know, I don't want to talk
40:25
about that. I don't I don't even want to say
40:26
the word death. You know, you think about how
40:28
many people just won't say the word death.
40:30
They'll say passed, passed on, expired.
40:33
So many different euphemisms to avoid saying the word death or
40:36
dying. Have you ever been involved in
40:40
back and forth with a doctor that the doctor just focused on
40:42
one thing? You're just like, no, you're
40:43
going to make this person miserable.
40:45
Even spoken to them about this. Yeah, many, many times.
40:48
Certainly in some of the hospital settings where I used
40:50
to be involved doing liaison work.
40:53
I remember, you know what? A doctor, one of the Hospice
40:56
docs was recommending the use of morphine for a patient.
40:59
And the other Doctor Who was there with the family said
41:03
morphine. You're going to give him
41:05
morphine? And he turned to the daughter.
41:06
Don't you love your mother? What Yeah right like how could
41:13
why why would you give no again morphine and and certainly at
41:16
the end of life is used in very small doses it's it's used very
41:20
you know it's not used to knock people out it's very effective
41:23
in helping with pain management and also.
41:24
Ensure. No, it doesn't matter.
41:26
It doesn't matter the reason that shouldn't you know your
41:28
reaction to? That kind of rationale is still
41:31
there. Like you have a lot of
41:32
physicians who are just still like morphine, you know?
41:34
Don't you love your mother? All right, fine.
41:38
We'll go back to what we can do. OK, so speaking.
41:41
So what we can do is you can find another doctor if you're
41:44
getting this reaction like, oh, I don't know about pain
41:46
management. Find another physician, find the
41:48
new PA, find the new, you know, NP.
41:50
There's a lot of. But let's you know, because
41:52
we're all going to love our our mothers and fathers and brothers
41:55
and sisters and sons and daughters.
41:57
So how many doctors like what should we be looking for?
41:59
Who should we be looking for? How should we be looking for
42:01
them? You want someone who can be
42:03
honest and open and say here's what's going on here is the
42:06
choices. Sometimes even if there is no
42:09
choice, you know, if the person is offering Hospice, let's say
42:13
right end of life care at home, it's not because I'm offering
42:17
you Hospice because I think that's what you know, I would do
42:20
for my mother because you know, she wants quality of life.
42:22
It's looking at the big picture, looking at maybe the treatments
42:27
that this person has gone through or maybe that what's no
42:30
longer available that they're not a candidate for.
42:32
This is why I'm recommending Hospice.
42:35
It's not just, it's not just the absence of choice.
42:40
It was a choice for necessary care, to keep people
42:44
comfortable, to make sure that people's symptoms are still
42:47
managed even at a time where maybe there really is no way to
42:51
do anything to help, you know, cure them in the traditional
42:54
sense. Managing symptoms, keeping
42:56
people comfortable, that's a cure in its own right.
43:00
When you ask people, you know, what's today like, how are you
43:03
feeling today? What does today look like?
43:04
Well, I feel better today. Well, what's better?
43:06
Does that mean their cancer is cured?
43:07
No, it just maybe means they're not in pain.
43:11
They're able to get up. They're able to have a
43:13
conversation because they're not writhing in agony like they
43:16
were. Yesterday, would you recommend
43:18
word of mouth a little bit? Also trying to like you could
43:21
ask people in their past experiences who had a really
43:23
good bedside manner and felt that was very knowledgeable.
43:27
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there's a there's, you
43:29
know, they're great. Or like, for example, if someone
43:31
needs a a mental health clinician in America, for sure
43:34
they call, what's it called, Refua, right?
43:37
They can get a referral to a really good mental health
43:40
counselor. I mean, I'm sure there are
43:42
already healthcare advocates and people out there in the
43:44
community, but definitely, you know, let them keep a, a, a
43:48
list. I'd say a Rolodex that sounds a
43:50
little old fashioned. Who are the doctors who will
43:52
actually have a really good conversation?
43:55
You know, who are the doctors who are really good at curing
43:57
people, but also who are the doctors are really good at
44:00
giving people bad news that there is no more cure, but we
44:05
can still treat them and keep them get get them comfortable
44:08
and give them whatever time they have left to be as comfortable
44:11
as possible. Right, right.
44:14
OK, next on the list. Next on the list.
44:19
Meaning I want to hear more meaning.
44:20
OK, so I'm finding I'm speaking to Rob.
44:22
I'm speaking to a doctor. How about how about more
44:24
directed to the patient? I mean, God forbid if my father
44:27
was passing, what should I be telling him?
44:29
What's what's he looking for? I think you really, you want
44:34
someone who is you want to, you want you want care that that
44:36
fits what you're looking for in terms of honesty.
44:39
You know you want someone who can give you the whole picture
44:42
of. No, I'm, I'm talking about a
44:44
personal level, like for example, my, so my father who
44:46
has, who has walked through death with a lot of my relatives
44:49
to help them in the end of life. So I asked him this question.
44:52
He said that that people more than anything at the end don't
44:55
want to feel that they're alone and that you're just going to be
44:57
with them. So like what?
44:58
What can we be doing as as the nucleus?
45:01
Right. That's what, you're OK?
45:02
Yeah, I always say presence is everything.
45:05
Presence is everything. Presence is everything.
45:06
Just be there, you know? Don't worry about what to say.
45:09
Don't worry about saying the right thing.
45:11
Don't worry about saying the wrong thing.
45:13
Just be there. Obviously, if you broke the vase
45:15
when you were five and you've never told your parent now, I
45:17
think this is a really good opportunity to say it.
45:19
You know, get all the truths out, be truthful, be honest, but
45:23
just be there. Is that really best though?
45:27
Like do you really want to tell your, you know, your dying
45:29
parent you did something horrible to them?
45:31
Do you really recommend that? Yeah.
45:34
You know. Why?
45:35
Because that's how you go through things together that
45:40
kind of. Open.
45:41
Open varnish. Truth is how you go through
45:45
things together. You're not just like, OK, you
45:48
know, like when my mother, I always say my mother, you know,
45:53
not to be in heart. You know, I don't want to talk
45:55
about anyone else's parents. But, you know, my mother, you
45:58
know, imagine me sitting with her when she was dying, you
46:00
know, and it's like, here I am losing my mother, but she's,
46:04
she's dying. And you'd think on the one hand,
46:06
like, it'd be really strange for me to tell my mother, you know,
46:09
this is really hard for me because I'm losing my mother.
46:12
And she's like, well, like, yeah, I know, but I'm dying, you
46:14
know? Like, both of those could be
46:16
true at the same time. And when you, you can, you know,
46:21
we could have, you know, we could, you know, we did support
46:23
each other through that process, you know, in a way that
46:27
sometimes you see is very different from the, in the
46:29
traditional healthcare setting where you have a patient in the
46:32
room and a bed. They're identified as the
46:34
patient. You know, the family can only
46:36
visit 2 at a time, 3 at a time, you know, only a couple hours a
46:39
day. Hospitals are, are getting
46:42
better at this. But more and more people, you
46:45
know, want to die at home. If we can bring the care to
46:49
them, why not? Why not honor those wishes, You
46:52
know, So having people at home rounded by their family on a 24
46:57
hour basis, most people would want that.
47:02
OK, so but the most OK that that's that's great advice.
47:05
But the most important thing for family members and friends is
47:09
just to be present. Be present, be honest, be open,
47:12
talk about your feelings. It's hard for everyone if the
47:15
person. Do they want to hear that?
47:17
Do they want to hear how difficult it is for you to lose
47:18
them? Yeah, they want to feel loved,
47:23
but don't we all want to feel loved?
47:25
Don't we want to? Feel that we matter, right?
47:27
To someone. So what, what?
47:30
What could be more powerful than you know, when a person is dying
47:33
and their family says like, you know, look how much you mean to
47:35
us. Right.
47:37
Look how much you. Matter OK, how how about
47:39
stupidity? What what do people do that are
47:42
just like that? You've seen that it's just a
47:44
either common mistake or, or Oh my gosh, please stop doing that.
47:47
And and it doesn't have to just be for the yam, just have to
47:51
just be for the nation. It could be for Rabunnam.
47:52
Also, I'm sure rabbis make plenty of mistakes.
47:55
The thing that I've, that I've seen the most that I, I think I
47:58
like, I just want to like shake people out of it is focusing on
48:02
stuff. So I can't tell you how many
48:05
times I'll explain, I've seen people focus on and get upset.
48:09
Like I was expecting this delivery of medication.
48:13
It was supposed to come at 10:00 and it came at 11:30.
48:15
So I'm going to make a big deal out of that.
48:17
Or, you know, the doctor said he was going to raise this
48:20
medication on, you know, for vitamins and I, I didn't get it
48:24
and the pharmacy didn't deliver it.
48:25
Like, just like let it go. It's not going to make a
48:28
difference. You're trying to control the
48:31
situation that you cannot possibly control.
48:35
And so people tend to focus on that maintaining control.
48:41
Mistake. Is that a mistake for the
48:42
patient or a mistake for the family surrounding the?
48:44
Patient. I'd say more for the family
48:45
around them. You know, the patients realize
48:47
you can't control everything. That's the one thing that
48:50
they've come to realize very much at this stage of the game.
48:53
But for a lot of family members, they still are trying to control
48:56
the uncontrollable. You know, remember, they can't
48:58
control the death. They can't control how sick
49:00
their loved one is, but they can control and they think they can
49:03
control. You know, when the doctor came,
49:05
when the nurse comes, when this medication is delivered, how
49:08
many hours a day they have a home health aide.
49:10
Like end of the day, they're not going to remember any of those
49:14
things. Focus on the presence.
49:16
Focus on being there. Don't worry about this.
49:19
OK? How?
49:20
How about as rabbis? What?
49:21
What mistakes are we making? Be very careful how I say this.
49:25
Gosh, no, no, don't, no, don't. Be careful how you say it,
49:28
because we need most are just like everyone else.
49:30
And if we don't, then we're not good rabbis.
49:33
You know, I, I think that there is a, a time where many rabbanim
49:36
just also don't feel comfortable saying, yes, this person is
49:39
dying, you know? And that's a problem.
49:43
Yeah, I'll give, you know, I'm very blessed that I work with a,
49:46
you know, locally, a wonderful firm physician.
49:49
And, you know, so people will call and they'll say, you know,
49:52
I have, we have to give fluids. We have to give fluids, you
49:55
know, absolutely. And the doctor will say, like,
49:57
look, this person is already so swollen.
50:01
Giving fluids now in addition to being painful, you know, is
50:05
going to start to do more harm than good.
50:06
It will fill their lungs. They're not going to be able to
50:08
breathe. They're literally already you
50:13
know, they call it weeping edema because there's literally fluids
50:16
just pouring out of the body as the body can't process it.
50:20
I mean pouring out through pores literally.
50:24
So, you know, sometimes it's OK to say odd con, you know,
50:31
talking to the doctor before just giving up.
50:34
Sock is so important with the doctor is from great.
50:38
If the doctor is not from just explain what are your concerns?
50:42
You know what are what what, how likely do you think you know
50:45
what? How likely should the family do
50:47
in an ideal situation? And then what happens if it's no
50:50
longer an ideal situation? What are some of the limitations
50:53
of the things that we can do to maintain life?
50:58
Do you talk to your kids about death?
51:01
Too often, yeah, they're all they're sick of it.
51:05
But you know, have they grown from it?
51:06
I'm sorry. Have they grown from it though?
51:10
Well, I hope they know that if I ever am, you know, more
51:12
affectionate than they want, it's probably because I had a
51:15
rough day at work, you know, because that's what I will, you
51:17
know, sometimes that's what you do, you know, you, you, you come
51:19
home like my, my kids are already teenagers, you know, So
51:22
it's like Tati, like what, what, what happened today, you know,
51:25
like you. Are you giving me so many hugs?
51:27
Yeah, you guys gotta, you know, exactly.
51:29
It's like, and they're girls, so, you know, sometimes they'll
51:31
go for it, sometimes not. But, you know, it's like you
51:34
just want to hug your family that much more, to acknowledge
51:40
that I'm going to, you know, give you my undivided attention.
51:44
I try to spend time with each of them individually, you know,
51:47
doing things that are fun for them.
51:51
So, you know, I think that's something that they know that I
51:54
really pull out of, you know, work trying to spend time with
51:58
my wife. They always joke, you know, they
51:59
remember the patient by name. I don't want to say her name,
52:02
but I used to tell her last name.
52:03
They. Oh, yeah.
52:03
Yeah. Misses, you know, whatever.
52:05
She would always tell me. Did you take your wife out this
52:07
week? You know, did you buy her
52:08
flowers? Your show advice was way up
52:10
during that experience. Was way up at that point.
52:12
Let me tell you, it's great. OK, this question I've been,
52:17
I've been dying to ask you. No pun.
52:19
Dying to ask. You are you afraid of death?
52:23
No. OK, why are you not afraid of
52:26
death? Well, I think, you know, like
52:29
you said, if you have this awareness, you know, you got to
52:33
be honest with yourself at some point, you know, am IA perfect
52:37
Sadiq? Absolutely not.
52:38
Is there going to be Denver Hedgeman of things they know
52:41
that I did wrong? Yeah, absolutely.
52:45
But at the same time, I think if you live your life trying anyway
52:49
to to do the right thing, that counts for something.
52:55
But why does that make you not afraid of death?
52:59
I mean, I'm more afraid to leave my family more than anything
53:01
else. But that's, you know, I'm,
53:03
that's me worrying about them, not worrying about myself.
53:06
Because I think death, like you said, is inevitable.
53:08
It's going to happen to everyone no matter what.
53:12
Is that why you don't fear it? Because because it's inevitable?
53:14
Have you made peace with it because you've seen it so many
53:16
times or or has nothing perhaps to do with your profession?
53:18
Maybe you're just so comfortable with death because you know
53:21
you're you're at the you're 5 rungs above me in the sense that
53:24
I'm trying to think about it and not be afraid about it.
53:26
It still haunts me. It doesn't haunt you.
53:29
No, I just think it's it's kind of like a constant presence in
53:33
my life. If it wasn't, do you think that
53:37
would make a difference or you still wouldn't fear death?
53:39
No, no, I I would definitely fear death if I wasn't, you
53:42
know, if I was just one of these, I don't know, Jewish guys
53:44
working in law, recounting real estate, I have no idea, you
53:47
know? Yeah.
53:48
That no death would scare me silly.
53:51
Interesting. I think it's called an
53:53
occupational hazard. I understand that, I hear.
53:57
Is there anything you want to share with us before we go off
54:00
the air? You know, like I was, I was like
54:05
thinking when I, when I was thinking about our conversation
54:07
we were going to have today, I was like thinking, you know, is
54:09
there any wisdom to impart, You know, from all these people that
54:12
I've met, you know, the thing that really just comes to mind,
54:16
like you said, you know, you don't necessarily want to,
54:18
again, I don't kind of agree and disagree and whatever and how
54:21
most people should live their lives.
54:23
But I you know, I think that if we think on a regular basis, the
54:27
fact that no matter what time is short, you know, we should
54:32
definitely make more of the time that we do have, you know, with
54:35
our families, with our friends and an extra, you know, Seder of
54:39
learning every day. If you haven't done the daf you
54:41
and me before, you know, start now, you know, maybe after, you
54:45
know, maybe after monochrist, I don't know.
54:48
We just finished the schmacher. So you're going to last week of
54:50
CISIS. We moved on back to more of the
54:52
tougher stuff. You're.
54:54
Going to be there for a long time.
54:56
So, you know, maybe not now, but you know, do the DAF join the
54:59
DAF, something like that, you know, in other words, make life
55:02
count. Someone there's a quote, I'm not
55:05
going to get it exactly right, but it's one of my favorite
55:07
quotes ever, which is go something like this.
55:09
Some people think that time is a predator, stalking, stalking
55:14
every moment until it finds our last moment, ending our life.
55:18
But I prefer to think time as a companion that reminds us to
55:22
cherish every moment, because that moment will never come
55:24
again. That's it.
55:27
Yeah, yeah. See, you're worried about wisdom
55:29
you're going to share today, and you shared a heck of a lot.
55:31
So thank you so much for being with us here on the show.
55:33
Yeah, thank you so much for having me.
55:35
It's been a privilege, really. You got it.
55:37
Take care everyone, see ya.