Latest / The Hidden Load: For the educators and leaders in medicine who hold everyone up. / Shifting From Hero to Collective Identity with Dr. Nondumiso Makunga-Stevenson
Transcript
- Santina Wheat: Welcome back to The Hidden Load for the educators and leaders in medicine. I am your host, Dr. Santina or Tina Wheat. Now, it is quite common to talk about the external load that many of us experience in medicine, the emails, the staffing shortages, the endless compliance modules. But today, we are going to have a conversation about some of the things that are inward. We're talking about a load that is so heavy, yet so quiet, that many of us don't actually realize we are carrying it until we feel like we are drowning. We are talking about that identity gap. Think about the decade that you spent becoming a doctor. You didn't just learn the skill, you actually became a new person. Welcome to the hidden load for the educators and leaders in medicine who hold everyone up. Thank you for listening to The Hidden Load. If today's conversation spoke to you, I would love for you to share it with a colleague who might need to hear it too. It's one of the simplest ways we can start shifting the culture of medicine together. We will tackle the hard topics and help you conquer your chaos and get to calm all by starting to acknowledge and remove that hidden load. And remember, your time spent reflecting here matters. You can earn free CME or CE credits for listening to today's episode through the Pinnacle app. You'll find that link in the show notes. you learn to be the one with the answers and you learn to be the hero who absorbs uncertainty so that the patient doesn't have to. But here's the secret that no one tells you. The very identity ⁓ that you a great physician can actually be the thing that prevents you from being a great leader. This podcast is a space for us to name the things that are common, but not normal. Each week, we'll look at the invisible weight you're carrying and explore practical coaching-based tools to help you find more calm, better boundaries, and a sense of purpose that doesn't require you to run on empty. I'm so glad that you've carved time out for yourself today. Let's get into the episode. If you are looking for one-on-one coaching support or want to dive deeper into the resources we discussed today, let's connect. Now joining me today to help us navigate this gap is Dr. Nondomiso Makunga-Stevenson. She is a medical doctor. She a leadership coach ⁓ and the founder of Ubuntu Doctor Coaching. She helps physician who are stalled at the mid-level move forward by shifting from performance to identity. You can find information on how to reach me in the show notes. Thank you so much for joining me today. I'm so excited to have this conversation. don't forget to hit subscribe so that never miss an episode ⁓ and leave me a rating so that others can find too. Dr Nondumiso M-Stevenson (PCC): Thank you, Dr. Santina. Good to meet with you again. It's always wonderful to talk to you because I think we are two like-minded people with passion for helping our colleagues through leadership. Santina Wheat: and take care of yourself because you deserve to be held up too. And I'll see you next time. Absolutely. Now in our past conversations, you have shared with me that physicians are trained to carry complexity without showing the cost of that complexity. And when we move into leadership, why does that clinical identity start to feel like a cage? Dr Nondumiso M-Stevenson (PCC): Yeah, I think it really starts at the beginning, as I've shared with you in the past, and based on my own observation, my own story, and I'm sure you'll probably also relate. Most of us come into this work because we want to help, we want to serve other people. So our heart and our calling, our purpose is very much intertwined. with what that service looks like. And we have an expectation of doing that in a very specific way. ⁓ I grew up as, ⁓ I'm a daughter of a nurse and a general practitioner. So for me, in their generation, they were patient oriented. That's what they did. My parents would get up every day. and go and see patients. That's what a doctor meant to me. That's what a nurse meant to me. That's how I understood it. And they loved it. And they were people who were both very dedicated to nurses, rather to patients, to healthcare. ⁓ you know, so it became something that was very attractive to me. So I share this background about myself because that is the identity that I adopted. That is what I modeled when I made a decision at some point that I wanted to become a doctor. That's all I knew, right? Based on what I grew up with. And so for many of us, even those that didn't necessarily grow up around doctors, perhaps they had a good experience, you know. when they were in hospital or they wanted to change something about the medical field based on what they saw, what they experienced. So all of these experiences, all of this exposure ⁓ informs what we think medicine should look like even before we enter medical school. And then, of course, you go through the training and our training is designed and I will say correctly so. to produce people who are going to be clinicians. And all the values and the principles that we learn are intended to do just that, right? To serve our purpose and our calling. So when people move into leadership roles, especially into roles that take them away from the patient facing day-to-day roles, becomes, it's destabilizing to the identity. This is from my experience and certainly speaking to many physicians that are coach as well. And we are not really trained to expect that even. So there's certainly gaps that I believe ⁓ exist in our medical training that don't adequately prepare us. for the shift that has to happen. But I do want to say that there is a lot that actually prepares us for leadership as well. think ⁓ there is so much evidence that doctors make excellent leaders for the same reasons that we make good clinicians as well. But it is in that transition that I think we tend to struggle. ⁓ and we tend to not really be prepared for how to transition then to a leadership role. Santina Wheat: You've talked a little bit about your background. ⁓ Can you share a little bit more for me and what you consider to be your hidden load Dr Nondumiso M-Stevenson (PCC): Yes, ⁓ so I've been a doctor more than 25 years now. I qualified in South Africa and ⁓ spent many years ⁓ working in different roles within the health system. But my first leadership role was quite accidental. I was on maternity leave, just kind of thinking, know, what should I do next? I'm looking for the next challenge. And I found a post for ⁓ Africa's largest hospital at the time for a senior ⁓ clinical executive. That was the title, senior clinical executive. And I thought, ⁓ let me give it a go. And I got the job. I got the job. And to say that I was thrown in the deep end would be and underestimate. found myself, as I said, this was at the time Africa's largest hospital in South Africa in Johannesburg, really having to understand ⁓ the differences in a very difficult way between what I'd come from, which is primarily clinical work, ⁓ into non-clinical leadership. So I didn't even you know, have the confidence to hold a ⁓ meeting, right? You have to chair a meeting. I didn't really understand how to navigate all the different stakeholders, including the public. This was a very complex hospital that was at the heart of the community. There were many challenges with expectations from, you know, from the publicity. had to find myself speaking to all different functions, HR, know, public relations department, legal department, know, procurement, all of these issues and heads of department, heads of clinical departments. And I really was quite lost. And that's when I realized a lot of the skills that I had learned as a clinician were not going to serve me what needed to happen. was for me to start engaging my soft skills, ⁓ which I hadn't really been aware of. Suffice to say, as I've shared with you in previous conversations, this was a time for me where I really appreciated mentorship and on the job coaching from both my leaders at the time and also from my peers, people who could help me. navigate through all these different circumstances and situations that I didn't know how to navigate. Trade unions, things like that. I had no idea how to deal with that. ⁓ So with help from my colleagues, one started to gain a better understanding of what leadership is about through issues like managing other people, conflict resolution, all of those types of things that ⁓ we're not faced with ⁓ during our clinical training. So, yeah, that is just an example of where I started. And I took that knowledge through to various organizations and nonprofit organizations where I spent a lot of time in clinical practice. At the time, I went back to clinical practice and also in ⁓ corporate pharmaceutical ⁓ sector. various jobs, but in all of them, I have had to do a lot of learning and a lot of unlearning of how I was trained as well. But it's absolutely been a phenomenal journey, which has also helped me now ⁓ in my coaching practice. I do see the same issues and I'm starting to see the patterns that I had. I'm starting to recognize the behaviors and the attitudes that I had and really see that I was not failing during those challenging moments. I was just adjusting and perhaps it was not personal. It was just a function of having been trained as a clinician and not necessarily having all the skills to transition to a leadership. Santina Wheat: I think that that's so important and is so hard for so many people who step into leadership, whether it is leading a team, being an educator, being the physician who is trying to manage the project at the local level. We are trained to do one certain thing, to always be in control, to make sure that we have everything right for the good of the patient. And that gets us so far. But when you're a leader, those skills actually can harm the process and can make it more difficult. It makes it maybe seem like you're undermining the people you're working with and you don't learn to share the responsibility as just one example. So going back to that unlearning that you mentioned, many of us have to unlearn to become good leaders. And you mentioned your coaching. I really love the... the philosophy that you've shared with me about your coaching, the Mbundu philosophy. And the way that I understand it is the idea of I am because we are. I would love for you to share how that has been when you're bringing that into a medical system now that is really individualistic, especially the way that we learn. How do you, how do you, in real time think about the cognitive and emotional labor to bring that into a leadership space. Dr Nondumiso M-Stevenson (PCC): Mm-hmm. And I think this is definitely an idea that I am ⁓ getting more and more involved in and seeing the value of. Look, it's not rocket science, Santina. It kind of makes sense in so many ways for where medicine is ⁓ currently. ⁓ Ubuntu is a philosophy and it is ⁓ an African philosophy. ⁓ The Ubuntu is an Nguni word, so Nguni people are found from Southern Africa all the way up to ⁓ Cameroon is where the Bandu people are, within that grouping are Nguni people. So I am Zulu speaking, which is part of the Nguni group, but I don't want to get into those structures, but just maybe as a bit ⁓ of background. The slogan, I'm going to call it a slogan because when you ⁓ do not do the direct translation, it sounds very clumsy in English. The literal translation is, I am a person because of other persons. Right? And that's a very dynamic ⁓ translation because what it means is that even my own existence, but beyond that, my own becoming is because of other people. And so as I grow, my growth is also rooted in your growth and reciprocated in your growth. So at the moment, I've really been working with ⁓ some of my coaches, my mental coaches and other academics and intellectuals in Ubuntu. one of whom is ⁓ Dr. Tumimakallela. And he works with Ubuntu and trying to translate that into a leadership framework. So we really have something that is practical, ⁓ not philosophical. Because when I say to you that, you know, we support each other, it sounds very fluffy, but we have to... start moving philosophy really into practice. And so that's the work that I'm doing now is try to translate that philosophy into ⁓ leadership and specifically in the medical arena. So what does that look like? And I think to your point, there is a level of individualism that is in our medical training. For example, ⁓ You are accountable on your own ⁓ for everything that you do ⁓ as an individual. do not miss that your ⁓ recognition or your achievements are your own as Dr. Santino. So when you publish your manuscript, you are the first author. We recognize you and the people that are there, right? ⁓ But there's so much ⁓ that lies within the individual. very example that I use ⁓ how Ubuntu was implemented, even ⁓ in an context, is ⁓ with a coach, a basketball coach. coach called Doc Rivers. I believe it was the Boston Celtics. I don't watch a lot of basketball, but I do recall him saying that he applied to Ubuntu and that is what actually helped the team to achieve a championship. And there were very basic principles. One is that your performance is not individual. In other words, recognizing that you are not ⁓ performing only for yourself, but your performance is part of and contributing to the collective, right? And in that sense also accountability is not only to yourself but also to the collective. And that is one of ⁓ principles he and he put into ⁓ And ⁓ take away ⁓ from the documentary that I watched was around ⁓ your value not being only based on what you do, but how you are also contributing to the rest of the team. So it is definitely a mindset shift where we start to look at ⁓ the way that we work. not as an individual, but as a collective. Now, why is that important? Because, you know, when we are trained, we are trained to the harder you work on your own, right? The more you stand out, the more reward you get, the more ⁓ validation that you receive for standing out on your own. You know, we talk about that ⁓ lone wolf. ⁓ syndrome where the glory will come to you as an individual and that potentially perpetuates this cycle of over-functioning, over-working in order to move forward and because that is what is acknowledged. I stay longer, I'm the first one in, I'm the last one to leave and we even think about that in terms of leadership, that this is what we should be. modeling, know, just working hard and often working hard at the wrong things, right? In leadership, working hard is, by no means am I saying that we shouldn't work hard, but working hard sometimes at the wrong things, things that are taking you away from impactful leadership work. And that is how we now start getting in the weeds because we start micromanaging and... and doing all of those things because we just see people as an extension of our ideas and our work. So these are small mindset shifts really that are ⁓ necessary. And then I think having an Ubuntu informed ⁓ approach can really help people to start decoupling themselves from some of the... ⁓ identities that are necessary for them to become more effective in leadership. Santina Wheat: And it's not just important to be more effective. And of course, it's important to be effective as a leader. But by doing that, it actually makes your leadership journey more sustainable. Because all of those things that you mentioned, the micromanaging, the getting into the weeds, those are a direct trip to burnout and feeling like this isn't for you. And when you can come back out of that and realize that it's really the team lifting each other up and not a solo race, ⁓ then it can be more meaningful and you have a more ⁓ joyful journey and can really enjoy that experience of being a leader. Dr Nondumiso M-Stevenson (PCC): Absolutely. And this is why a lot of physicians will get to mid-level and they will stall when they get there because they at a point perhaps it did serve them to work that hard and it did impress senior people ⁓ to be very good and very ⁓ functional, over functioned really at operational level. But there is the where executive thinking and strategic thinking becomes more valuable. And you will not have space to do that if you are still stuck in the operational mindset. And so it's difficult for us to let go because that's what is familiar, right? When you are on call, you're working hard. You you've built your whole career around this skill, this clinical skill that you have. Santina Wheat: Mm-hmm. Dr Nondumiso M-Stevenson (PCC): And now you are, and this clinical way of working, and now you are expected to shift, right? And do things that are going to take you away from, you know, what I call my happy place. And my sacred space is when I'm with a patient, Santina, that brings so much joy when a patient says, thank you. And that's our sacred space. So it's difficult for us to let go of that. So in essence, what happens is that as people get to sort of like mid careers, even early senior level, but just before the C-suite, that's when they start getting feedback that we need to see more leadership skills from you. And that can be very confusing because you might say to yourself, but I've been leading, I have been leading, know, I've been doing the work, what more should I do? And this is what I hear often from. Santina Wheat: Mm-hmm. Dr Nondumiso M-Stevenson (PCC): some of the clients that I coach that I've been overlooked for promotion and yet I'm working so hard and I don't understand why I'm being overlooked, you know. So there are shifts that need to happen at that point. Besides, as you said, it's not sustainable. You you cannot do the work of more people than you are supposed to, especially as you start. moving into bigger organizations, the responsibilities are going to pile up, the meetings are going to pile up. You have to have a different mindset that will free up the cognitive space to start thinking and ⁓ embodying leadership behaviors. Santina Wheat: So I definitely have seen whether it's been on message boards, whether it's colleagues that have shared with me exactly what you just mentioned where people will say, I am working so hard. I think I'm the hardest person, the hardest working person in the room. And this other person was offered the position that I really wanted. Sometimes they've never expressed their interest in that position, so it's hard to tell, but they thought that, well, just because I was working so hard, they should have at least asked me. And it sounds like you receive clients that are saying the same things to you. So when this happens, how do you encourage them to take a step back and think about this mind step? What are the first steps that someone can do to help move into this different framework? Dr Nondumiso M-Stevenson (PCC): Quite right, ⁓ Centina. And those are probably the two common ⁓ issues that people might raise. So the first one, as you said, is somebody who's waiting, as the young people say, waiting to get chosen, right? That's the first one. And the other person is the person who ⁓ does not apply but continues just over-functioning. and ⁓ being expecting to get chosen, perhaps they do apply, but getting overlooked. And for me, the same side of, it goes back in essence to how we were trained, right? In medicine, and I've heard many people ⁓ talk about how we have... ⁓ hierarchy that sometimes resembles even the military, right? You kind of get picked and you do certain things and they are very explicit criteria. Perhaps you must have published so much, you must have mentored so many residents, you must have started a program and provide your portfolio of evidence that shows why you should get chosen. And that does work. right, when the criteria are explicit. When it gets to certain levels, the criteria are not that explicit. And so one of the first things to kind of look at is ⁓ who are the people that are getting promoted and what are the behaviors that they are exhibiting. Some time back I shared with you how I ⁓ got up. promotion and I had to do the work before that. ⁓ One of the first things that I heard when I joined that specific organization and people just said this to me, said, you know, here if you want to get promoted, you know, you people have to know you. You know, I was so confused. What does that mean? People have to know you. Right. And I understood later on that it meant that I really had to Santina Wheat: Mm-hmm. Dr Nondumiso M-Stevenson (PCC): identify who the decision makers were, who the sponsors were, what those sponsors needed from a person that would be in the leadership role. ⁓ What are their priorities? are the organizational priorities? What is important to the organization? And so when you do that and you just kind of take a step back and assess your environment, assess is it safe for me to be in this environment? Right. So there are so many organizational dynamics sometimes that we overlook. Not every single organization is going to be safe for you to be to to try and put yourself forward. You know, they are ⁓ politics and organization. So. You may be overlooked for not because you are not competent or you don't have it, but there's some other things and some other issues in the background that you may not be familiar with. So if you want to really get a ⁓ roadmap for promotion that will work for you, you do have to ask yourself many, many questions. And when you do that audit, right, including what is the environment, is this organization aligned to my values? ⁓ Why do I want to get promoted? Which position do I want to get promoted into? know, sometimes it's not even within your own unit. know, perhaps it's a position in another unit. You know, who are the people in the other unit that might ⁓ see my strengths? All of those things. But it takes for one to really do, ⁓ you know, a proper audit, just objectively so. Right, objectively so. And that's where you and I come in as coaches, because then we hold space for people to really ask those questions, think through those questions, and figure out a ⁓ way that will work for them and within the context. And it's okay if at the end of it you decide maybe not this cycle, but maybe next cycle, maybe not this organization that I'm with. but another organization outside my organization might appreciate me. And then we fix that. can always ⁓ work towards a plan and support a plan ⁓ with our clients towards that. But yeah, it just takes ⁓ some self-reflection and somebody like yourself and the work that we do to really hold space for one to... to do that and then take a step back and then re-engage now with a clear plan. Santina Wheat: I will say that was the hardest thing for me as a leader was entering that state of reflection. I was someone who was very resistant to the idea of reflection. I was the person in medical school that was really upset every time we had to do a reflection prompt. Same thing in residency I tried to get out of it. And when someone would ask me to reflect as an attending, I'd say, okay, no, that's not the thing that I'm doing. And I would walk over and see the patients instead. And it wasn't until I really understood that reflection didn't have to look one way. I was thinking it had to be sit down and do a journal. That doesn't work for me. Sometimes a reflection can be what I do right now, which is talking to my phone as I'm driving about the thoughts that are going through my head and then just read it back later. Sometimes that'll bring new ideas that I didn't realize that I had. ⁓ Reflection can be talking with someone else who you trust, ideally somebody that doesn't have skin in the game, which is why a coach is a great person, we don't get promoted because you got promoted. We are really just there to help you with your possibilities, but understanding the value of that was such a meaningful shift for me as a leader, as an educator, and is part of why I do this now because I realized the value of that, but it's such an important process to go through. And I think even if you're not looking for a promotion, it's a good step to do to say, is this a place I can grow? Is this a place that aligns with my values? Does this position align with my values? I think you should do that on a regular basis to make sure that you are in the right space. Dr Nondumiso M-Stevenson (PCC): Definitely, absolutely. Santina Wheat: you have mentioned that it's really the connection, that the connection is really important for ⁓ people ⁓ well, lead in a way that's sustainable. ⁓ And I think that ⁓ That can be hard for some people to figure out, especially in this time where we've moved very towards virtual time, trying to be efficient as possible and leave work at work. How do you encourage the people that you speak with to find that space still for connection, even in this time where things are virtual and we are trying to be as efficient as possible and leave work at work? Dr Nondumiso M-Stevenson (PCC): You know, just I recently had a conversation with one of my mentor coaches. We're working on a project together. And, you know, we mentioned we trained to move fast, move fast, make decisions quickly and and and and execute quickly. And that's what I wanted to do. And I got to a point where I got a stumbling block, just basically a barrier and I became very, very frustrated and articulated that to her. And she told me, know, Nundemus, sometimes you have to move slowly first in order to move fast, you know. And in almost everything where I've had challenges, taking that pause, taking that... just saying to you, okay, stop, stop, stop, me see what is happening here, for me has always been very, very helpful in order to move forward. And that's exactly what I would advise people. Sometimes you have to just take a pause, just really take a pause. That's not how we are trained. Take a pause and acknowledge sometimes that if there's uncertainty, which is also something that we're not very trained in, we trained to look for certainty. We trained to look for evidence. It's a very uncomfortable place for us to not know. ⁓ It's a very uncomfortable place. So sitting with the discomfort and then trying to figure it out in a... you know, in a, with a slow pace, with enough time, ⁓ with, in a non-judgmental and safe environment, that's for me has always been, ⁓ very, very helpful. So, so that, that's what I always, advise, you know, it's important to just, ⁓ try and, ⁓ take time to, to, to reflect. take time to reflect. There's no harm in reflection. But again, it's not something that sits very comfortably with us. We're not trained on that. Like just stop and just think what could be the differential time? How does it feel? know, what is resonating? We're not trained that way. So that kind of language also is not something that we're familiar with. And that's what I had to learn with even coming into coaching. I had to unlearn. diagnosing problems, diagnosing issues with the eye to just learn to listen, to just listen, be non-objective. So, yeah, again, it's just things that we have to unlearn. But to your point, self-reflection, self-awareness, understanding yourself does require for us to stop, take a pause, be non-judgmental. ⁓ Santina Wheat: Mm-hmm. Dr Nondumiso M-Stevenson (PCC): preferably if there's someone that can hold space for you to do that, then you'll come out on the other side definitely with more clarity. Santina Wheat: Yeah, sometimes that connection can just be in the holding space for each other in those moments. ⁓ I am making this podcast primarily for the leaders and the educators, and so we are responsible for teams. How is it important for our teams to see us trying to embrace this philosophy? Dr Nondumiso M-Stevenson (PCC): ⁓ yeah, that is key. That is really key. I think ⁓ we model a lot in clinical meds and ⁓ searching for my own experience in medical school and I'm sure from yours as well. ⁓ We see certain behaviors from our leaders and we believe that is what and how we are expected to behave. I recently had a conversation with a, we call them consultants in attending, who was very concerned about the culture of teaching. She's also an educator. and had had, you know, a very difficult experience, you know, with the language and tone that is often used and has been used for very long time in medicine, you know, the so-called in inverted commas pimping culture, right? Where you just question and question and question until the person cannot answer anymore. That is ⁓ not only harmful to people's self-confidence. I think so much has been written about that. But it really goes against the grain of the values that we want to bring into the profession. And it keeps us in this loop of imposter syndrome and lack of self-confidence. And we... are definitely in a season, and I'm so grateful for it, that we have collectively, as the medical community, come to a self-awareness and a self-reflection. That things must change, you know, and it begins with ⁓ considering yourself as part of the collective. So how I behave as a leader is really a reflection of the collective. You know, so ⁓ it's important, I think, to learn how to do leadership differently, commit to doing leadership differently in your own and authentic way. Right. We spoke some time back about the example of the coat, right, that. You know, it's like when our parents used to buy us oversized coats at the beginning of the school year, you grow into it, you know, ⁓ it is something that can be learned. But eventually, even that coat will be too small for you. And you'll need an even bigger leadership ⁓ coat that will reflect the growth ⁓ that you have experienced. yeah, leadership is definitely a ⁓ journey, but We have to think about it as a journey that benefits the collective and that's where the philosophy really rounds it up together that this is not only for us. It's painful to me to hear young physicians going through what I went through 25 years ago. ⁓ And what my father went through 25 years prior to that. So the culture definitely has to change, but we have to think about the young doctors or the young people that are coming into the profession and ask what legacy do we want to leave them? And we can make that impact now. We can define for ourselves today ⁓ what that legacy will look like for them. not for us as individuals, but for the collective. Yeah, so that's where I think that philosophy really comes in is, know, this work that we do is too important for us not to support each other or to lift each other. But if we want to maintain relevance into the future, we all collectively have to have ⁓ the same mindset, which is to as leaders at least, model the behavior that we want future generations to look up to. Santina Wheat: Absolutely, because one of the challenges of the hidden curriculum in medicine is that they see our behavior and they think that that's the way to be. And so if we can model in this way, then they will think that that is the right step forward in the way that they can be the leaders of the future. I have really enjoyed this conversation. Are there any last important thoughts that you would like to share with the audience? Dr Nondumiso M-Stevenson (PCC): Yeah, I think the most important thing for me is to really encourage ⁓ any physician who has an aspiration to become a leader or is currently feeling a lot of pressure in a leadership role and to tell them that you are not doing anything wrong. There's nothing wrong that you are doing. And it may feel like you are failing, even though you're working so hard or you've worked so hard and the promotion is not coming through or you don't feel that you are seen. Chances are the problem is not you. It's just a few things that we may have to work through in terms of the identity that you may have to adopt. It may not be a comfortable process to shed part of what you've consolidated over 10, 15, 20 years, but in the end, that is the journey of leadership. As so many people, because of how we are trained, they think because they are struggling with leadership, they are the problem. Maybe I'm not cut out for leadership. It can be learned, it can be learned. But having ⁓ people like myself, people like ⁓ you, Santina, to support that transition ⁓ can really help to rebuild your confidence in ⁓ your leadership. So yeah, there is hope, there is hope. Talk to somebody, reach out to somebody. Even if it's a peer, it doesn't have to be a coach, but even if it's just a peer. ⁓ and have somebody just help you think through ⁓ what can be changed and what needs to be changed in order to ⁓ make the leadership transition much more sustainable as well. Santina Wheat: And if I could add to that, sometimes people are surprised at how small the changes can be that make a huge impact. Sometimes it's tiny little things that take less than five minutes in your day that really just shift how you interact with others or how you manage things. For me, one of those small shifts that I'll just share as an example was waiting. two minutes before answering emails, because sometimes even that two minutes allowed somebody else to chime in and allowed it to feel like not everything was on my shoulders, and so that one tiny shift, although there were other shifts that happened too, was a momentous shift that allowed me to be less reactive. And that was one of those things. You have to be reactive as a clinician. You have to move quickly when patients are in trouble. But it's not always the same as a leader. so sometimes a tiny shift, like waiting two minutes, can be a meaningful thing in your everyday. Dr Nondumiso M-Stevenson (PCC): I can believe it for sure. I can believe it. It's not, it's, and the wonderful thing about doctors, we can learn. There's nothing that we cannot learn, hey? We are quick learners, we are fast learners, we are curious people. So as you say, sometimes it's just learning these tiny little shifts. And I think we are more than capable of doing that. Yeah, definitely. Santina Wheat: So if ⁓ listeners would like to find you, how do they do that? Dr Nondumiso M-Stevenson (PCC): Yes, I usually do post on ⁓ LinkedIn using my name, Dr. Nundumiso Makunga-Stevenson, but people are also welcome to email me. My email address is drnonumiso, that's drnundumiso, at ubuntu, doctorcoaching.com. So, Dr. Nondomiso @ ubuntu doctorcoaching.com. ⁓ Santina Wheat: And of course, we'll have that in the show notes in case anybody is driving so that you can get that contact information later. So we have spent our time today pulling back the curtain, looking a little bit at our identity tax ⁓ and knowing that leadership isn't being the I, always being the hero. ⁓ It's about being the we makes the individual possible. ⁓ And to my fellow educators and leaders, I want you to take a moment today to acknowledge that that's a transition, to acknowledge that there might be grief in moving from being just that clinician to being a leader and that that's okay. You aren't losing your clinical self though in that process. You are evolving. Thank you so much for listening to The Hidden Load. And I hope that this episode helped you put down a piece of your identity load today. And I hope that you'll share it with a colleague who needs to hear that they aren't alone and that there is an opportunity for them to grow. And I look forward to seeing you next week.