Latest / The Charity Changemakers Podcast / Season 3 | Ep 10 Ru Watkins on why he chose to save Hamelin instead of close it
Transcript
- Adam Stacey: Really pleased to have Ru on the Charity Chainsmakers podcast today. Ru, thank you so much for joining us. Ru Watkins: ⁓ Adam, thanks for the invite and lovely to see you. Adam Stacey: Yeah, no, that's great. Brilliant. Well, great to have you here. And I say this just about every podcast, I can never do justice to an introduction. So I like to hand over that responsibility. So if you want to take a minute or so to introduce, yeah, who you are, what you do, that'd be great. Ru Watkins: ⁓ okay, ⁓ for those who don't know me, I am Rue Watkins and I'm the chief executive at Hamlin. we are a learning disability and autism charity, ⁓ growing at pace across Essex and up into East Anglia. ⁓ and I have the great pleasure of of ⁓ being their chief exec Adam Stacey: hear more about well, career journey, obviously time at current charity and everything else as we move through the conversation. But before we get into the big stuff, we always like to ask some quickfire questions about our guests, the opportunity to get to know you a little bit better. So yeah, what does a good weekend or a day off when they come around look like for you? Ru Watkins: Let's call it a good weekend, shall we? No, ⁓ gre a good weekend is a walk, certainly ⁓ somewhere in the woods or by the sea with dogs and family. ⁓ may certainly with this weather which is fantastic at the moment, ⁓ a swim, but also a very good lunch on a Sunday. depending on the time of year, which type of lunch it is. So downtime, yeah. Adam Stacey: Yes. Yes. Yeah. Perfect. Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, there's something like you say about good food and getting outside. which might follow on well for this next next question, then what's something, ⁓ small that brings you a disproportionate amount of joy? Ru Watkins: Yeah, great question. ⁓ very simply for me, it's watching the swallows and swifts when they return. one just a wonderful experience and it takes you to a different a different place. And that gives me huge amount of joy. Adam Stacey: Yes. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. No, that's brilliant. I love that. My children mock me endlessly for the amount of bird watching that I do. But yeah, there's just something about it. Like I say, just getting off a screen, getting away, getting outside. Yeah, yeah, parabenoculars and I'm happy for hours. Ru Watkins: Yeah, you just marvel at it, don't you? And just think, Wow and you know, the journey that they've they've had to come and then they come back. I just I I find it phenomenal. But just the joy I think the joy, the sheer joy of them. Fantastic, you know. Adam Stacey: That's great. final quick question for you. one thing that people assume about your job that just isn't true? Ru Watkins: that it's easy. ⁓ I think they think charities ⁓ and as a chief exec, they sort of pat you on the head, or sometimes they pat you on the head and think you'll be all right, you're a charity where it is probably the most complex operating space and you're dealing with complexity ⁓ the day. but it's also dealing with people. Adam Stacey: Yeah. Ru Watkins: And that in itself is is what pe I think people forget about that. And so time spent talking to, looking after, thinking about not only your your key staff and the staff and people but also the beneficiaries and the families. I think people forget about that. Adam Stacey: That's really interesting when you talk about the complexity of working in the sector, particularly thinking about the other sectors and obviously career experience that you bring as well. And I guess that comparison between the two, and I'm sure as we navigate this conversation, we might pick up on ⁓ of that. We always sort of kick off with this big question about how people found themselves working in the charity sector, because it seems rare that many people sort of grew up knowing that that was the path that they wanted ⁓ to So I'm really interested as to... Yeah, what some yeah, how it all started for you within the sector. Ru Watkins: I I found life's a series of telephone calls. and was working corporate side and had been working corporate side ⁓ when ⁓ somebody who I knew who was a headhunter, we'd we'd sort been having a chat I think about four months before and in a in a bar and I was saying I'm a bit fed up with planes, trains, automobiles, you know. ⁓ not sure it's it's really getting to me. And he phoned me up and said, There's a small charity that's struggling and they need help. do are you interested? ⁓ it was quite sim it was as simple as that. And I went and had a look at Noah's R and spent a bit of time walking around North London, talking to families, talking to staff, and thought, wow, what they do is phenomenal and it's fantastic. It appeals to me. ⁓ you it also appeals to the challenge in me because it's quite unique and where Nerd's Arc started it was unique and and what they do now is still phenomenal. I knew nothing about pediatric palliative care. ⁓ I didn't know anything about charities. Well I knew a bit about charities. ⁓ but the challenge was there was this organization struggling but had this brilliant idea and had a brilliant you know this rapport with people and families and it just ticked the boxes. And it was as simple as that. And I sort of, you know, having spent time walking around talking to people, I just I just went back home and said, This is great. This is fantastic. I do not have to get the Sunday plane out to KL or Dusseldorf or wherever you're going to. ⁓ you know, no and then deal with a whole host of problems. But I have a real problem that I can solve here. And it'll mean a lot to people. And and that's that's what ticked the box and that's what started. That's what started it. Adam Stacey: And the charity sector as a career option, that being on the radar before that telephone call, or was it literally just, yeah, there was a bit of a, I want to do something different. And then, yeah, someone, I guess, puts that opportunity, that challenge, challenge in front of you. Ru Watkins: Yeah, I'd spend twenty I spent twenty three years in defence, you know, sort of frontline soldiering and and working in in the MOD, doing major programs, projects. I've gone corporate side, ⁓ with with B T and then AO, ⁓ their organizations. And it wasn't really on the radar, to be brutally honest. You know, your next my next thought was okay, I've I've done the defence piece, ⁓ I'm doing the corporate piece, you know. It's okay, it's interesting, you're well remunerated, you know, and and everybody gets their pound of flesh. And I sort of looked at the charity section and thought, that's nice, but is it is it me? And I think I probably went with the view, you know, that sometimes people look at us now. As I said, you know, they pat you on the head and hope that you'll go away and it's it'll all be all right and you don't get the complexity. But I think what what I saw was that this is really there's great complexity and greater impact. And you can use a series of skills that you've learned as an individual. And but you get out of bed wanting to do it. And and there there was a fundamental tick, you know, at that point. think the toughest gigs, you know, I've ever had in terms of business, maybe not in soldiering, but have always been in the charity sector. And I think that's that's what interests you and that's what motivates you. So a long answer to a gr to a great question. So you Literally I think I sort of, you know, overnight went, Okay, I get the corporate stuff. I you know, you know, the defence stuff has been great, giving me a great career, but now it's something that's really getting to me. And that's what's kept me in, bluntly. Adam Stacey: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I guess, yeah, I guess my reflection on that is, you you talked about the importance there of going and speaking to people. I guess that's the, you know, the organisation, you know, people within the charity sector or people connected to the community being able to bring it to life and being able to show to you, I guess, the impact that you could have in a role like the role that was being put in front of you at Noah's Ark. Ru Watkins: Yeah, I think that's that's really fundamental. I've done it in in in the in the out of the three roles as a chief exec, you know, I've done it twice and those are the roles which I bluntly have enjoyed the most because I have spent I spent that time trying to really understand what what the issues were and how you could change it. And and certainly now as chief exec spend, you know I had I have a great mentor once who said to me, You will spend seventy percent of your time sitting on the edge of the desk or talking to people or having that discussion because that will help your thinking and then it will drive through the change. And and they are exactly right. You know, it is. Seventy percent of that, and then you're doing a lot of other stuff and the other thirty odd percent, you know, the thinking and the changing and all the other bits and pieces. And it is about taking people on a journey, whether Whether it's the people that you know, the beneficiaries and the families, it's your staff, or even shaping the environment as we do, working with the integrated care board, working with with social care, you know, but also getting the right people around you to guide you and give you that thinking. You know, we we did an event on Friday for for the media and I felt you know, I'm I'm not great at media, I'll be brutally honest. But I felt so relaxed because I was amongst the beneficials and the families and it was just lovely. that story was coming out. They would they were able to tell their story. But also you you sort of mentally check in and think, Yeah, now we're doing what we should be doing. And now these people have got to listen and now we can carry on and make the change and drive the change. You know, and that and that I think is is is the great is the great motivator. You know, but time spent listening is really, really important. that's been a good learning for me. Adam Stacey: Yeah, absolutely. I'm always interested in people that make that transition from, you you say household name, organisations, you know, that you're working with, and obviously, military defence career before that is, you start to start work on the Monday morning on that first Monday, you know, sat at the desk and go, where, you know, where do I start? Because like you say, you know, not only so much I'm sure to learn on, you when there was our competitive care, and, you know, a whole new sector, but also, you know, obviously, you know, fundraising marks, you know, all of these different pieces to draw together. But it's that listening piece probably is what you're saying is that it's the starting. Ru Watkins: I th I really think it is because that that guides you I mean, the military gives you i everybody says, you know, it's quite interesting, you listen to people say, ⁓ well you're in the military so used to taking orders. Actually the military is quite it deals with chaos you are left to get on with things. ⁓ and certainly on the corporate side, you know, ⁓ big organisations, ⁓ le y again y there was a trust element left to get on, but people would listen to what I was trying to say. And I think there's a set of skills you come with. Listening is one of them, understanding is the other. And then there is that sort of I you know, there is no doubt that the commercial skills or the ability to get things done are needed. And they really help you take that journey, that story onwards. One of the things I also notice, and I suppose that that comes I think comes back to my previous careers, is that we're in the sector, there is there is got massive complexity in those bits and pieces, but they're all bits and pieces that work together to achieve a single aim. But you've got to be clear about what that aim is and what what that vision and that mission is. We're also at times, ⁓ having looked at the sector, very I call it the Klingon cloak of care, where you just do this. And therefore the person or the individual or the family isn't getting the chance to grow and and develop the skills that they want to develop. And so listening helps you understand that piece. And the same goes for your staff as well. You know, your teams, they want to develop. And if they're given the right environment to develop, then then they can get on with it. So that's another part of listening. So it is a core, it's a core skill. You know, I think my my my wife would probably tell me I'm terrible at listening, you know. But you know, I I do, I think I do hear more so and and listen and then try and understand and then make it a reality. That's what I think the sector is good about. when it stops to cling on clock of care, when it starts to work together, when it co produces and when it solves things. And that's that's really where I believe we should be, you know. Adam Stacey: And do you think there was a nervousness from people within the organisation, someone coming from a commercial sort of corporate background in and you know, no, no, you know, as you said, you know, not a huge amount of knowledge within the charity sector, because I guess, you know, I still, I still think, you know, more or less 2026 now, I still think sometimes there can be, you know, boards and organisations that can have a nervousness about people that make that commercial transition. So yeah, I was interested to see what it was like when you joined those arts. Ru Watkins: ⁓ Was there a nervousness? Yeah, I think there probably was. I think ⁓ I think there's bound to be a nervousness because probably my approach was slightly more direct than where they'd been in the past, but that's y that was the change that needed to happen and we probably recognised that, or you know, the chair and probably maybe a couple of board members and I recognise that and sort of setting out the stall. in terms of the staff team I think, you know, as we set We set this vision, we set this mission together because that's you can ⁓ in you know, you can sit in an ivory tower and you can cogitate and you can look at all your spreadsheets and everything else or or maybe not ⁓ you're at the start of the journey. But the key is taking people with you. And it's diffusing ⁓ think diffusing that mystique, yeah. But I also would say that, you know, everybody says, Well, you know, coming from a commercial background, do you Do you really get it? We're all people at the end of the day, we just come with different skill sets. But you have to find the right organisations to work with as well. You know, I would would not have done well in an organisation that didn't need transformation and change. And I r I absolutely recognise that all the way through I've been, you know, working in the sector. And I think that's my forte, maybe. Others may argue not. ⁓ would be which would be absolutely fair. But I think, you know, ⁓ it I think you you've got to look at the person as a whole. And certainly here I mean at Hamlin now, we we you know, the old board left and we've got a new board. It's a very commercial board with with but with a lot of skills because we've we've been on a growth profile and we've been but their passion as people. And they they do listen, they certainly listen. But their passion is to do the good bit. And they're very commercial. You know, they all commercial companies, you know, we've got people from blue chips and whatever. That's really exciting because your thinking is also then challenged. I think sometimes we we you know, there's a potential in the sector to put your head in the sand and hope it'll all go away. I don't think the world's like that now. And the people I've worked with across you know, I think ⁓ look, there's a great mix, isn't there? In its horses for courses. I don't think there's one right answer, but I think different organisations go through different problems at different times and you probably need different people. different times to solve those problems with different skill sets. And it's some you know, I've had friends of mine who who when I left sort of, you know, defence and even the commercial sector said, you're doing what? You know, why are you doing that? You know, and that and I thought and what a what a that's a really great question. And they they then carried on, they've done phenomenally well and they're very talented. and we still get together and they still we all still laugh merrily. But their challenges are actually not dissimilar to the challenges that we have. It's just on scale, you know. So I d I yeah, gre don't think I've answered the question, but I think you people come with skill sets. And you've different I think the real answer is different organisations need different things at different times. And you should also recognise that as a chief exec as well. You know, maybe your time is done because the fit isn't right at at that time or you've done your job bluntly. And you and you move on. It doesn't mean you don't have the passion and the belief and everything else that the sector does have. ⁓ and and actually commercial sector has as well, and certainly defence has. So I think I think horses for courses perhaps. That's quite a long ramble. Adam Stacey: Yeah, yeah. And I want to know that's absolutely yeah, that's fine. That's what the that's that's the beauty of a podcast format. He got that opportunity to go down the rabbit hole and see what see where we end up. But the guess as you you know, as talk there about having the right people at the right time in the right place that you know that that that often comes down to also having to make difficult decisions at you know, times, isn't it? I guess as that being part then of your you say you know sort of you know roles that really need that turnaround that transformation has sort of been the theme across your charity career that means you know facing you know difficult difficult decisions at ⁓ as well. Ru Watkins: Right. Yeah, it does. I mean I think it does. I mean you if you go into an organization you know you've got to change it and it it is failing. You know, there's two options, you close it down or you build it out, or you and you try and change it. But I mean I think always one of the learnings to me is is there there's the culture and the values. Sometimes you can change it and sometimes you can't. However hard you try, how if you're leading from the front or you're developing people and all those bits and pieces, you know, I I have absolutely no doubt that the time invested into changing trying to change people is is is is invaluable. But it doesn't always work. And therefore you've got to make the decision that if this is not going to work and this is where we want to be, you know, is is the fit right? Is the fit right actually for you as the chief exec? director or whatever or indeed is the fit right for the staff. And I think those have always been huge challenges. And there'll always be huge challenges. And it's not nice, but you know you you can you can either do it well or not do it do it not so well. ⁓ and I think we've all seen examples of that. I also I also think there there's a skill there's a skill set issue where have you got time to train and develop people? to get them to where you want to be. You know, y ⁓ I I'm very optimistic about people. I really I really am. ⁓ you know, everybody said ⁓ generation z and what you know we've had youngsters that we brought into Hamlin here who bluntly probably wouldn't get interviews elsewhere. But are start was because we're investing in their development, we're starting to see their development. And I think that's really great. And they will be the leaders of the future, I've no doubt about that. But I think you have to invest that time, the energy, the vision, the passion, but also the human being bit. You know, d I think that comes really from ⁓ probably the soldiering background where you are working with your soldiers, male and female, and asking them to do some of the craziest things on earth at times and probably some of the most dangerous things. And you've got to instill that knowledge and understanding and develop them because there has to be something in it for them over and beyond. you know, just just the pay at the end of the day. I I'm a great believer that people dip in, dip out. And and if you can give them the right skills and get them to a point in time, that'd be really great. We used to talk about and we still at Noah's Art we used to talk about a DNA. ⁓ here at Hamlin we talk about a stick of rock. So if we chop us you chop somebody from Hamlin in the middle, they've got a Hamlin roll rolling round them. That's this stick of rock. But that's the values, the belief. And that and that's what we all have to do. Adam Stacey: Yeah. Ru Watkins: But there are tough conversations at times because people don't fit and it's not the right thing. And you can't the other bit is I've also noticed some people don't want to change. And if they don't want to change, then Buntley, you know, and you want to take the organization on journey and and and the team wants to take it on a journey, then then you have to have that conversation. The other bit is, you know, and and I think the sector struggles with at the moment is about remuneration. Renumeration isn't just pay. It's about how you train, you develop, you invest, you think about the long term on somebody's journey. You know, you build the network for them. So I have absolutely no problem if one of our support workers turns around to us and and we spent time investing them and they Look, I want to go off and train to be a nurse and learning disabilities. You know, this is it to me that's a huge success. And and that's not you know, that's people go, ⁓ we can't do that, you know. I think you can, because that is a success, because that that personal trail blaze and then you take people on. And so I do think it is bad investment. I do think it is hard. I think also as a chief exec you have to look at yourselves and have to make the hard decisions about yourself as well. Because you don't always get it right. You know, I can think when I've got it wrong and I think, okay, so what's the learning? What's the decision? What was the impact of me doing that? Time for reflection, really important. That's the that's that. It's that weekend isn't it? That lunch or that watching the swallows and the swifts ⁓ spent. I think th those are the key points. You you you're running you're running an organisation which you you're trying to grow and develop and transform. You you know, people are looking to you for guidance, advice and support. You've got to think about yourself as well. And I think we're very bad at that as chief execs in the sector. I see so many exhausted people. Adam Stacey: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Ru Watkins: And being resilient is is really important actually because you've got a lot on your shoulders. You've got people's livelihoods, you've got beneficiaries, you've got whole stakeholders, you've got an organisation where you're checking the manax and looking at the bottom line, you're trying to grow, you're investing, all the other bits and pieces. And you've got to be there for the tough decisions. And people want an answer. Adam Stacey: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And are there things that, you know, reflects on that? I mean, you obviously talk about the importance of getting time to reflect. You've obviously mentioned about a mentor as well. Are there things that you've that you've done to invest in your leadership, maybe, you know, pre-charity sector and then during charity sector that's, you know, helped you develop as a leader, as an individual, but also taking that time to invest in your, you know, invest in yourself? Ru Watkins: That yeah, ⁓ probably not as well as I should on reflection. I do have a group of friends who who I bounce ideas off. I think that's really handy. Actually a couple of them are competitors, which is always quite good because you build this co production then and and I think that openness and honesty is good. else do I reach out to? I do reach out I ⁓ will test what I'm thinking. You know, and it doesn't need to be chief execs, it can be with directors, peop with people who I trust. I think trust is a key. and there are people outside of of of Sunny Hammond or the What Boer outside Noah's Ark who I tested assumptions with and they would come back and say yeah or would turn around to me and saying, You're looking really tired. What is you know, that because you don't always see that. ⁓ you know, and I yeah, I think there's there's a sort of They're they're certainly not like minded souls, they're a bit anarchic actually. So which is great fun. and I think I think I think you build these networks around. I'm not sure I have a great I have a great bunch of friends in in Chief Exec, but I don't tend to share within the sector those bits and pieces. I think there's a privacy element in me not wanting to do that. And so therefore building trust with somebody is really, really important to me. you know, honesty, loyalty and integrity, which is sort of you know, many of the three values you're sort of you work with in in defence, I think that's you know, as a soldier, that's you know, as an officer, that's what you show. That's what you live by. And I think if you've got those values, they're embedded quite heavily. And so therefore the people that you trust are the people that you talk to because they probably understand you. Or maybe not. Adam Stacey: Yeah, absolutely. Well, yeah, well, like you say, people that come from the yeah, that can, can can counter that. And you can have that conversation, you can have that, you know, that peer to peer support is, I think is really ⁓ vital. And we've heard people on the podcast talk about the importance of that, because at time, you know, we hear this phrase a lot, we? know, being chief exec can can feel like a lonely, lonely place. ⁓ And I think, you know, I think there's an element of truth to that at times, it does does. It depends on the individual and the organisation. But being able to have those spaces to offload, to bounce ideas, think is vital, is really important. Ru Watkins: Yeah, I I I I feel sometimes a little bit overwhelmed with the amount of I shouldn't say this doing a podcast, but the the amount of things for me to go to and listen to and understand and I think I've become more and more picky because time time is is your biggest asset. and so therefore ⁓ using your well is really, really key and critical. ⁓ and This is my genuine genuine belief. You you want to drive impact. You want to make if you want to make a decision or you want to do you understand the whole ecosystem that you're operating in, does it fit with where you want to take the organisation? What is the impact overall? You know, and then bouncing the idea off somebody else. Have have any of you ever done this before? You know, and it's really interesting 'cause then you learn. and I think you can do that in quite a quick moment of time or over a cup of coffee or or or a discussion. And I f I find I tend to learn quicker that way. You know. ⁓ I I know my decision making process is quite quick. at times you've got to push back I have to push back at that ⁓ have to have to learn and that I become more self aware of that. But it's quite interesting chatting with you know with my team and I say to ⁓ you know, there's a couple of times where we've pushed a decision down the line and they're saying, We're getting frustrated No, we're all getting frustrated 'cause we're not making the decision. You know, and but then having that conversation say, Yeah, but we're better off we've no we're not gonna make a decision, but we'll make a decision by then. You know? And and I think those those are learnings that you take. And I think that's a bit of guidance I've always that was a good bit of guidance given to me, actually. You know, you Adam Stacey: Yeah, yeah. And do think that's different from charity? I guess? I don't know. This might be one of those assumptions that people make the charity sector moves slowly. It's not, you know, in comparison to the corporate world or different sectors. Obviously, you've got experience across ⁓ range now. And I appreciate that you've been in ⁓ where, you know, it is transformation. So ⁓ has to at times there has to be quick decisions. But ⁓ you think do you think that's a true assumption that people make across the sector move slowly in comparison to others? Ru Watkins: I think it depends where you are, actually. I think it depends where you are. If I if I think about the areas that I've operated in, I think in London we moved pretty damn quickly to get stuff done. Not only the sector, but we brought partners with us and that enabled that movement. You know, we because we we didn't have all the resources and everything that you do in a corporate well, you know, we built those resources around us and that enables to move very, very quickly. And I think there was a willingness to do it. interesting having come, you know, then going up into stuff that which I think ⁓ sedentary, ⁓ you and and do we really want to change this? And I sort of get that. I understand that. may not may not realized that at the beginning, but that's fine. That's how they operate. You come down into Essex ⁓ and we're through massive change here. You know, there's the LG there's the LGAs, you've got the Merrills, you've we've just you know, you've got the I C B's just reconfigured. You've got huge areas of deprivation and then huge areas of wealth. Essex is quite complex. You've got a majority of smaller charities and only I think it's only three percent of charities are over over about a million, you know, and but there are hundreds of smaller charities. And I think people come overwhelmed and they just can't see see you know, the daylight. I mean Hamlin was in a right odd pickle. We were turning over about a million and hundred and thirty seven people but a structural deficit of eight hundred K. You know, it was going to the wall. We're we're certainly not there now, you know, in a very different world. But the reason we're there, I think, was because we put our head above the parapet and said we're going for it. But we also built our networks. You know, I I I you know, far be it from me, I do some stuff from Cranfield as well, who Which is really interesting because you get to look at other organizations. I try not to do it in Essex, otherwise that's accused. But you go and look at other organizations and you're thinking, if you tweak that, put your head above the parapet and did that bit, the benefit for you, your beneficiaries and your staff be really great. But that's not everybody's style, and I've come to learn that. That's my style and that's what I like doing. But I think at times Adam Stacey: Yeah, absolutely. Ru Watkins: We can be a bit nervous. You know, I've sort of it's been really interesting coming to Essex and working here. We have put our head above the parapet, but the benefit for the beneficiaries and the families and for the charities in this part of the charities for the moment, but the benefit for the the people that, you know, were fortunate enough to look after and and staff has been phenomenal. It really has. It's enabled us to grow, it's enabled us to drive impact, you know. Adam Stacey: Yeah, sure. Ru Watkins: And yeah, I look at other organisations and and think you could you could do so much more. I think what what we're about to see is a bit of a revolution and evolution in charities as well. I think certainly looking around looking around UK PLC, having having the freedom to do that, because I've got a brilliant exec who worked far harder than anybody I've known. You look around and you can see those that are just there's this sort of in my mind there's three. It's a bit simplistic, it's probably something quite simple. You you've got those who are gonna say, Right, I'm I'm okay, I've got reserves, I'll be all right, and it's sort of coming in and out with and we'll be okay ish. Yeah. So they're sort of sitting in the middle. You've got those who are just going, I just don't want to look. You know, and I get that. And then you've got others on the dial who are going, Adam Stacey: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ru Watkins: That's really interesting. What can we do to do that and get ourselves to a place in time? I I sort of liken it to ⁓ we used to talk about staring into the abyss at Hamlin. We still do. But there's always a bright light somewhere in the abyss. You know, I it's bit a bit like that film, isn't it? and I think I think you're well I think ⁓ starting to see that happen more and more. Adam Stacey: Yeah, yeah, just gotta find it. Ru Watkins: And I think you're gonna end up with sadly in some areas that there'll be attrition in some charities, which will be a huge, huge shame. But I'm hoping that others will put an arm round it. And you can start to build almost maybe group structures but but communities of interest that support each other. You know, I don't understand why fifty charities are paying for back office stuff when we could all do it together under one guise. And I think those economies of scale Adam Stacey: Yes. Ru Watkins: Doesn't mean you've got to lose who you are and what you are and and deliver the brilliance that you do. But you know, coming together makes a huge amount of sense. And and you know, we've sort of been doing that in other projects with integrated care board and with Angular Ruskin, bringing ourselves together to to achieve those economies to drive greater impact. So I I think there's sort of three elements and you've got to find willing partners, haven't you? You know, you don't Adam Stacey: Yeah, absolutely. Ru Watkins: in in soldiering terms, what you know, y you don't go to war 'cause you don't really want to, but what's the outcome? Ending a war isn't fighting a battle and ending wars isn't the outcome. We've seen that across the world. There has to be something better out of it. Adam Stacey: Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. And actually, I mean, one of the things that you've mentioned quite a few times through the conversation is the importance of partnership and how you utilize that in the the places that you've that you've been. guess, look, think about ⁓ about time, we need to fast forward a little bit to Hamlin and to talk a little bit about obviously where you are now and I guess the journey that you've been on there. And I the difference between what what Hamlin looks like from day one, from when you walked in the door to where you are at this point. yeah, remind me how long you've been there now. Ru Watkins: So I've done four four and a quarter years, which is quite long for me. ⁓ so ⁓ it was really interesting. Adam Stacey: Yes, yeah, yeah. Ru Watkins: Hamlin came up because the original phone call I got with Hamlin was ⁓ we want somebody to close something down. And and I was actually chilling. Hamlin came up because the original phone call I got with Hamlin was ⁓ we want somebody to close something down. And and I was actually chilling. ⁓ I'd just ⁓ been away on a holiday or just planning another holiday. ⁓ And I was in the fortunate enough position to chill and I was contemplating what should I do next? You know, it was one of those. And I so I got a phone call to come and close it down. pottered down down here. I knew nothing ⁓ in in all honesty, and probably my director of care would probably say still don't know anything ⁓ learning disabilities and autism. and that's why I mean when you gotta get the right people around you to help you. And I so I got a phone call to come and close it down. So pottered down down here. I knew nothing ⁓ in in all honesty, We came and saw this organisation that was looking after a hundred and thirty seven people, with structural deficit of £800k and listened to some of the families, went out and about, you know, even before talking to the board and and listened to people with learning disabilities and autism. We came and saw this organisation that was struct the reason it I they were we're looking after a hundred and thirty seven people, you know what do I say, one one and a half million with structural deficit of £800k you know. and listened to some of the families, went out and about, you know, even before talking to the board and and listened to people with with children, well, young adults and adults with learning disabilities and autism. To understand the complexity, to try and get my head around it, spoke to clinical colleagues and and whatever. And then came to I came down here for an interview to the board and they said, ⁓ you know, we want to close this place down. It's got three different sites, you know. So I said, Well, why do you want to close it down? So, well, we've got a structural deficit, we're doing that. So, okay, well, have you ever thought about growing it? And been chomping through money. You know, there was no discipline, there was no And then came down to I came down here for an interview to the board and they said, ⁓ you know, we to close this place down. It's got three different sites, you know. So I said, Well, why do you want to close it down? So, well, we've got a structural deficit, we're doing that. So, okay, well, have you ever thought about growing it? And they said, well what do mean? So, well, if you grow it, if we invest in it, there's a huge demand for your services or if we redesign the services and we think about it, but we've got to invest back into the charity ⁓ to do it. there was sort of very quizzical I remember getting this very quizzical look from the board you know, and they said, Well, yeah, but we're closing it down. So, well, you don't need to close it down. You need to think differently. And they said, well what do mean? So, well, if you grow it, if we invest in it, you know, a bit of a punt. there's a huge demand for your services or if we redesign the services and we think about it, but we've got to invest back into the ⁓ to do it. there was this sort of very quizzical I remember getting this very quizzical look from the board you know, and they said, Well, yeah, but we're closing it down. So, well, you don't need to close it down. You need to think differently. And ⁓ I think at one point one of the board members were I decided you know, okay, well fine, that's your decision, you know, I can away and watch the swallows and eat Sunday lunch and do all the bits, you know. ⁓ you know, chillax. ⁓ and Then the next day I got a phone call from the from the chair and said, Do you think you can save us? I said, Yeah, I think can. Adam Stacey: Yeah, sure. Get back to chilling, yeah. Ru Watkins: Then the next day I got a phone call from the from the chair and said, Do you think you can save us? I said, I think can. Probably, maybe. But you've got to invest. I said, Well, do you know what it looks like? I said, Yeah, I I will come back to you next Wednesday, you know, give me a week and I will show you what we're gonna do and how we're gonna invest and how we're gonna transform. And ⁓ in the and said in the meantime, you've got to work out who you're gonna keep on your board because I can't we can't stop if we go. And she did that, she was very good. and invested on bringing good execs in. Three good three good execs to to build what what I viewed was we needed to build our independence, we knew the demand was out there, we needed to understand the data, but to build out our community services, ⁓ for me that that's where you have greater impact to review bluntly some of the stuff we were doing and then to get rid of other stuff. And that's what we did over the first two years. And we well, you know, we're now what, four and 40 years into it. We're looking over looking after, I think Andy told me, nearly 1,750 people and families. are an integral part of the health structure. We don't do their job. And I refuse to do their job. They're statutory organizations, but we will find solutions for them. We work with social care. I think ⁓ times we're a bit of a pain in the face. side for them because we we don't believe in the traditional model and we're trying to change it and we've gone with solutions and been told no not doing that we go okay that's fine. we are we were 100% reliant on statutory funding or about sixty percent reliant on now our own funding arm you know we've we've built that out we're pushing the brand we're doing all the bits and pieces that we should be doing you know ⁓ that journey Adam Stacey: Yeah. Okay. Ru Watkins: And we're about to roll the dice again because the demand is so massive that actually we we're expanding our services again. But what we've done is pick up models that we thought that's really interesting. How do we make it work? How do we make it work efficiently? So, you know, some some of the stuff we're getting people back into work. You know, it's interesting to read Alan Milburn's document saying, you know, we've got to get the youth back into work. Adam Stacey: you Ru Watkins: You know, we we fought tooth and nail to get funding for three years, you know, for for youngsters, young adults, you know, with L DNA. And we've got the funding and we're putting people back into work and working with and we've been working with people like Amazon and others. But we're also trying to understand the Klingon Cloak of care is stopped. ⁓ know, you've got to get them and you've got to let them run free. Our community stuff is about building communities. It's not about Adam Stacey: Yes. Ru Watkins: Here's another community model off with Jollywell Rumble. It's about building communities, but it's tied into the way we view ourselves as an organization, which is to take things, evolve things, and push things. You know, people talk about disruptors. I don't think we're a disruptor, I think we're an innovator. I think there's there's there's a subtle difference. And it's really interesting because you you you learn. I have not stopped learning all the way through this process. But I think also we've been pragmatic about our growth. we've ⁓ know, we we have the reserves now, you know, considerable reserves that we didn't have before. ⁓ know, our revenue flows right. But we've invested nearly another million pounds back into the charity. Over ⁓ But been about staff, that's been about the people, that's been about thinking to get us to a point. But it we were clear. We we had clarity we had clarity, we had a clear vision. Clarity, what we wanted to do, and then to take us on the journey. So the growth has been, I mean, the growth has been impressive. We we want to go again. We've got the reserves to go again. We're, you know, we are structurally right to go again. the bit we're missing, which is really frustrating and I find interesting, is that we don't have the donor base that we used to have. We're obviously ⁓ away like everybody does with with, you know, anything from social care or or health, but We think we can provide the solutions, but the donor base is a real struggle for us. You know, and it is something that I'm putting my mind to. You know, Noah's art we had a huge donor base, which is why we were able to build the arc and and take No Azart across north and central London and and do all the things here. You know, we are really we have to work very, very hard for non statutory funding. In a way though, isn't everybody in the sector at the moment? Adam Stacey: Yeah, I mean, particularly within your, yeah, within your area of delivery and services, but even that change from 100 % statutory reliance to 60 % is what is actually in a relatively short space of time, isn't it for four and a quarter years is is is quite a big shift. Ru Watkins: Yeah, I mean we're a five million I think we're a five million turnover organisation at the moment. That actually is great. What is really interesting to me is the one thousand seven hundred and fifty individuals that are doing you know, that and then where you take that is great. Has it been short ⁓ yeah, I think it has been a short time. Yeah, I think it's been a short time, but it's not just and me, it's it's y I've got a yeah, a brilliant team who are picking up stuff and running with it. You know, we fail at times and we learn. Adam Stacey: Yeah, absolutely. Ru Watkins: say we, know, we we do. But then we coalesce, come back together again and then go again. I think part of what we've done is explore. We've not been frightened of exploring and thinking and going, that's really interesting. How do we take that bit? And where do we go? And what does it look like? And we don't always have the answer, you know. And so it's continue evolution. And I think the other piece is is is charities need to Well, I this is my view for heaven's sake, you know, not necessarily the right view. But we're a handrail. Our job is to get people to a point in time where they can live their lives. You know, we build communities and we can live lives. And and I think community building is so critical at the moment. It really is. You know, we're seeing we're seeing interesting things. But there we are. Adam Stacey: Yeah, yes, yeah, yeah, I'm just kidding. Yeah, yeah, that's really, really helpful. We could probably talk for talk for hours. But I guess we need to bring the podcast into into land. As you reflect on all of these ⁓ different projects, different places that you've worked, is there something that, you know, that you've learned, you talk about mistakes and things that have gone wrong or made wrong decisions? I mean, is there something that you've learned the hard way that's kind of shaped you into the leader that you are today? Ru Watkins: Yeah. I think that's a it's a really great question because I think there's a whole load of learnings all the way through through career. I think you take learnings, don't you? And and if you're lucky enough you've got somebody who will hold your hand or tell you that you've got it wrong. I I think the thing I have learned most of all is about ambition. you've got to take everybody on the journey with you. You might have the ambition, you might have that clarity on your mind. And you think you've got everybody there with you. But some organisations don't have it and they're probably not gonna have it. And so that you've got to temper your ambition if you want to, or you go to the right organizations. I you know, y you ask the question. In my career I have gone to I went to an organization that was not right for me and I was not right for them. know, and that and I'll ⁓ Yeah, there's w we got through a lot together, we did huge amounts together, but it was never easy on both sides. And I think that then denudes your impact as as a leader and and causes stresses and strains for the organisation. And I would there's the one bit of advice actually I give people who say to Look, I'm off to do this job as chief you know, this job as a chief executive and say, How do you feel you'd fit in? And I think that's been a great learning. And I learned you know, I learned that I learned that the hard way, you know, I have no doubt about it. But it's been a great learning. And I take as I said to you, I take the positive from it because knowing that, then I can do the right things and you steer your course. Some part it's like partners, isn't it? You know, as we co produce, we work closer. There are some people who are natural partners and some people aren't. They don't share your ambition, your belief. Yeah, the ability to take risk. The the you know, the d I find risk quite interesting actually. But that's another story. ⁓ so I think that is it. It's about ambition, working it through. And I got it severely wrong once. Adam Stacey: Yeah, yeah. And there's a whole conversation there. We're gonna have to get you back on, Ru, for another show. So yeah, for sure. But I think what I'm hearing is that, you know, what we've seen through career is obviously, you know, clearly that innovation piece, not being scared in a challenge, but being able to make decisions, but having good people, good partners around you that share that, yeah, share that absolute ambition to, like you say, Ru Watkins: Warrington but Adam Stacey: It's not about increasing the turnover of organisations, it's about reaching more beneficiaries and supporting more people. So yeah, that's been wonderful conversation. Really grateful for you giving up your time and coming and sharing these insights ⁓ us. We'll make sure that your tags are happening as tags as well so people can find links through to the website to come and read more and find out more about the organisation and yeah, go from there. ⁓ Ru Watkins: Thanks, Evan. Thanks Adam and and thank you so much for the chance to do this. It's been a good actually been a good reflection period for me. I've made a couple of notes on things that that I ticked over and thought, ⁓ forgotten that. So thank you. Thank you very much. Adam Stacey: Yes. Well, I know, grateful for you coming on the show and yeah, you're opening us with us and yeah, look forward to keeping in touch. Ru Watkins: I look forward to it. Thanks Adam. My best to you all as well. Take care. Adam Stacey: That's great, cheers.