Latest / Constellations and all that... / 38. Belonging, Lineage & Constellation Work with Ingrid van der Aa

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38. Belonging, Lineage & Constellation Work with Ingrid van der Aa · Constellations and all that...

• 0:00
  Tracy Cartwright: Kiona and welcome to Constellations and all that.
• 0:03
  Tracy Cartwright: I'm your host, Tracy Cartwright, and together we will be exploring the world of family constellations with facilitators for and clients from around the world, looking at different perspectives and experiences in the work, having a cup of tea, and just chatting with some friends around their experiences in constellations.
• 0:23
  Tracy Cartwright: We'd love for you to join us.
• 0:25
  Tracy Cartwright: I hope that you enjoy this series as much as I have loved making it.
• 0:33
  Tracy Cartwright: Kiyota, everyone.
• 0:34
  Tracy Cartwright: Welcome to Constellations and all that.
• 0:36
  Tracy Cartwright: Today I have the pleasure of talking to my colleague, Ingrid van.
• 0:41
  Tracy Cartwright: Welcome.
• 0:42
  Tracy Cartwright: Ingrid.
• 0:42
  Tracy Cartwright: I would love for you to introduce yourself so that, uh, the listeners and the viewers can discuss a little bit more of who they're with today.
• 0:50
  Ingrid van der Aa: My name is Ingrid Van and I'm on the land of the Gaal people today, which is also called, uh, Manley in Sydney, in Australia.
• 1:00
  Ingrid van der Aa: Um, originally, I'm not from Australia.
• 1:03
  Ingrid van der Aa: I'm from the Netherlands.
• 1:05
  Ingrid van der Aa: Uh, my surname van, ah, means that I'm from the river called ah, the Double A. And an uncle of mine has traced that back all the way to the 16 hundreds.
• 1:17
  Ingrid van der Aa: In a town very close to where I was born and where now my middle sister lives as well in that town.
• 1:25
  Ingrid van der Aa: Um, so yeah, that's where I'm originally from.
• 1:27
  Ingrid van der Aa: So it's to do with, with water and the river and farmland.
• 1:32
  Ingrid van der Aa: And now I live in, in Australia, although I. Call both countries, my home, um, or where I belong.
• 1:40
  Ingrid van der Aa: But I guess in the Netherlands I belong first and secondly, uh, in Australia now where I've been living for the last 20 years, I have.
• 1:50
  Ingrid van der Aa: Been trained, first of all as a family constellation and then organizational constellation.
• 1:56
  Ingrid van der Aa: I love the work of, of Constellations and I got introduced to that actually in the Netherlands, but mm-hmm.
• 2:05
  Ingrid van der Aa: Only aware of that.
• 2:07
  Ingrid van der Aa: Um, later when I was in Australia, when I was reintroduced to the work of constellations, that I realized, oh, actually when I was in my twenties, I think, or even thirties, when I did a training session while I was working, uh, there were some constellations, um, used during that training session, which was a, I think management or at least mm-hmm.
• 2:31
  Ingrid van der Aa: Training session in the Netherlands.
• 2:33
  Ingrid van der Aa: And then, um.
• 2:36
  Ingrid van der Aa: Just more recently, sort of the last five years, when I got introduced into that work again, I was immediately fascinated.
• 2:43
  Ingrid van der Aa: And then I realized that in terms of organizational organ, uh, constellations, that's like, oh my gosh.
• 2:50
  Ingrid van der Aa: You know, there's so many people who've done so much work in that in the Netherlands.
• 2:54
  Ingrid van der Aa: Mm. And it was removed from that, um, being in Australia and actually not aware of it, uh, trained.
• 3:02
  Ingrid van der Aa: Organizational constellations with the Bert Heener Institute in the Netherlands.
• 3:06
  Ingrid van der Aa: And during,
• 3:07
  Tracy Cartwright: with, with Yako Star?
• 3:09
  Ingrid van der Aa: Yeah.
• 3:10
  Ingrid van der Aa: Y Jacob Star, but also, um, Barbara, Barbara Ho, and Mario.
• 3:17
  Ingrid van der Aa: I did also a workshop while I was in the Netherlands and I went to Belgium with Bibi, so I was a bit lucky during COVID I was able to go to the Netherlands.
• 3:28
  Ingrid van der Aa: It was unfortunate because both my parents were very ill.
• 3:33
  Ingrid van der Aa: And that's why I had to come to.
• 3:36
  Ingrid van der Aa: But yeah, lucky that I was able to, and because I ended up staying there for eight months, out of the 12 months, I was able to connect with all those people in Europe who had already done so much work on constellations like then, they're the ones I just mentioned earlier, but also John Wittington.
• 3:55
  Ingrid van der Aa: I came into contact with John Wittington from the UK then as well.
• 4:00
  Ingrid van der Aa: Who's another one I was thinking of Akra, did a workshop workshop with her as well in the Netherlands on moving questions.
• 4:07
  Ingrid van der Aa: So yeah, that's very quickly who I am.
• 4:09
  Ingrid van der Aa: Uh, and to expand on that a little bit more is also now going into organizational consultations.
• 4:16
  Ingrid van der Aa: And and why is that?
• 4:17
  Ingrid van der Aa: Because my background is, um, actually finance and working in organizations and realizing that people join organizations to almost as a. To find the ideal family.
• 4:31
  Ingrid van der Aa: Yeah.
• 4:32
  Ingrid van der Aa: Which of course doesn't exist, but there is like joining a gang,
• 4:35
  Tracy Cartwright: isn't it?
• 4:36
  Ingrid van der Aa: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 4:36
  Ingrid van der Aa: There's so much going on in organizations as well, and, and because I have that organizational background, I feel like, yes, I'm not trained as a therapist, but I feel in that space there is so much.
• 4:49
  Ingrid van der Aa: I can do and I can help and what is needed in terms of the dynamics that happen there as well, which always relate to some point to family as well, but actually happens in an organizational setting.
• 5:01
  Ingrid van der Aa: You know, it's about feeling stuck in a job or when, when.
• 5:04
  Ingrid van der Aa: Um, certain departments don't talk to each other, or there's dynamics in a leadership team.
• 5:12
  Ingrid van der Aa: That's where I come in and that's really my, my happy space where I then really work and, and use the systemic work to see if I can let organizational health flow better, let's people feel better, because my mentor is when people feel good, they perform better, both professionally and, and personally.
• 5:32
  Tracy Cartwright: Absolutely.
• 5:33
  Tracy Cartwright: Oh, I'll come back to the other thought that I had earlier, which was that there is a lot of, um, I think that the Netherlands have got quite a, a good foothold or a good grasp on the organizational side of constellations, haven't they?
• 5:48
  Tracy Cartwright: A lot of potent people that come from there that are working in organizations that I have been able to, that's my understanding anyway.
• 5:57
  Ingrid van der Aa: And I think Y Yakob started that, um, I think also maybe almost 20, 30 years ago.
• 6:02
  Ingrid van der Aa: And he trained a lot of coaches.
• 6:05
  Ingrid van der Aa: So there's a lot of people who work in that space.
• 6:09
  Ingrid van der Aa: And, um, every time I meet people, either coaches or are leaders in the Netherlands.
• 6:15
  Ingrid van der Aa: Everybody seems to know about the work as well.
• 6:18
  Ingrid van der Aa: They know what constellations are, they know about systemic work.
• 6:21
  Ingrid van der Aa: Uh, while in Australia, I think it's still quite new.
• 6:24
  Ingrid van der Aa: I dunno about New Zealand.
• 6:26
  Ingrid van der Aa: Um, but it's still also just explaining what it is.
• 6:29
  Ingrid van der Aa: Um, and is often hard because it's actually letting people experience and the power of the work that then suddenly makes people say like, oh wow, you know, it's really fantastic to not only.
• 6:44
  Ingrid van der Aa: Think about the world, have it with your mind, but actually experience it and, and really then understand what it means, what invisible dynamics are, and not only how
• 6:55
  Tracy Cartwright: do you experience that when you're guiding people who are maybe really in their head more so than someone who might come to it from.
• 7:04
  Tracy Cartwright: You know, they've come in from a healing point of view.
• 7:07
  Tracy Cartwright: They're wanting to get some healing, but, and in an organizational constellation, if they're more mind focused people, how, how does that seem to flow for them?
• 7:16
  Ingrid van der Aa: You know, it's interesting the word healing, because the healing is very much accepted in therapy country.
• 7:21
  Ingrid van der Aa: Mm-hmm.
• 7:22
  Ingrid van der Aa: But you wouldn't really use the word healing.
• 7:24
  Ingrid van der Aa: That's right.
• 7:24
  Ingrid van der Aa: But actually.
• 7:25
  Ingrid van der Aa: That's also often what people are looking for, but it's more like, you know, words as, I got major issue with this, or I, you know, am I, I wake up, or, um, I can't sleep because of this or that that's happening in the organization, so I'm struggling and I need some help.
• 7:44
  Ingrid van der Aa: So, you know some other words, but they're looking for the same thing and to.
• 7:50
  Ingrid van der Aa: Introduce them to a more of an embodied way, like you're saying, how do you get them out of the mind when there's so much in their mind?
• 7:57
  Ingrid van der Aa: Uh, you can only, well, what what I do is just do it really gently, um, you know, things like a visualization or a meditation or, you know, so I see that you're really.
• 8:09
  Ingrid van der Aa: Um, you know, stressed or worried about this and, and, and I see you're very busy in your mind.
• 8:16
  Ingrid van der Aa: Uh, I sometimes say, you know, would you be interested in just have a little bit of a breathing exercise or visualization just to calm down?
• 8:24
  Ingrid van der Aa: I might not even say the word calm down, but, um, because that's almost like I'm judging that it's a person is not calm.
• 8:31
  Ingrid van der Aa: So try to avoid that.
• 8:32
  Ingrid van der Aa: But it's really easing into.
• 8:34
  Ingrid van der Aa: Um, some embodied work, but in a very gentle way.
• 8:39
  Ingrid van der Aa: Also, never, I immediately go into a big constellation with lots of people, but do small exercises with smaller groups, and also to notice what is the power of that embodied work and what does that say?
• 8:52
  Ingrid van der Aa: And you know, I often use the phrase from Bert Hellinger also as an introduction.
• 8:59
  Ingrid van der Aa: It's very difficult to define the truth, but it's very easy to feel it.
• 9:04
  Ingrid van der Aa: And so I also really like to use the word truth.
• 9:07
  Ingrid van der Aa: What's really true to you?
• 9:09
  Ingrid van der Aa: You know, let's discover that in a different way and then introduce embodied way or use wooden figures, eh, so a tabletop exercise, first of all, rather than immediately your own body, but using something like the wooden toys.
• 9:26
  Ingrid van der Aa: Um,
• 9:26
  Tracy Cartwright: yeah,
• 9:27
  Ingrid van der Aa: wooden figures.
• 9:28
  Ingrid van der Aa: Then also ask, and what are you noticing in your body?
• 9:31
  Ingrid van der Aa: And when you see this in front of you, what are you noticing?
• 9:33
  Ingrid van der Aa: So slowly introducing the embodied approach.
• 9:37
  Tracy Cartwright: And do you do a lot of group work and that, or is it more one-on-one with.
• 9:44
  Tracy Cartwright: Business owners, both
• 9:47
  Ingrid van der Aa: because, um, if a leader has a team and he has problems with that, of course you cannot do a constellation with the team because you're not aware of your own unconscious dynamics.
• 9:59
  Ingrid van der Aa: So then you have different exercises you do with teams, but you can have a group of leaders in one room and then, uh, explore a certain issue for one leader where other leaders.
• 10:12
  Ingrid van der Aa: Yeah, what's happening in terms of the issue.
• 10:14
  Ingrid van der Aa: So it's just, just playing with that.
• 10:16
  Ingrid van der Aa: But I also do a lot of one-on-one work, uh, both in person as also online.
• 10:21
  Ingrid van der Aa: I use, um, whiteboard and, you know, um, yeah, you say yes, you probably do the same thing because I guess you do a lot of.
• 10:29
  Ingrid van der Aa: Online work as well, Tracy?
• 10:31
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah, I do.
• 10:31
  Tracy Cartwright: I often use, I like, um, that let's consulate, keeps it simple.
• 10:36
  Tracy Cartwright: Like there are some different apps that you can use, but the whiteboard is good and I like it.
• 10:41
  Tracy Cartwright: Really just simple.
• 10:43
  Tracy Cartwright: Yes.
• 10:43
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 10:44
  Tracy Cartwright: I don't wanna have to learn a whole new dynamic of, I was looking at some of them the other day.
• 10:49
  Tracy Cartwright: Some of them are quite complex.
• 10:51
  Tracy Cartwright: The, the tools that are available online and it's like, whew.
• 10:57
  Ingrid van der Aa: Yeah.
• 10:57
  Ingrid van der Aa: Through the um, institute, um, this Heer institute we got, um, introduced to the systemic VR virtual reality tool.
• 11:06
  Ingrid van der Aa: Mm-hmm.
• 11:06
  Ingrid van der Aa: So you can look through the eyes of a person, move around.
• 11:10
  Ingrid van der Aa: So that was an interesting tool.
• 11:12
  Ingrid van der Aa: I seem to have moved away of that because I find that a bit more complex.
• 11:17
  Ingrid van der Aa: And, um, another one I use is mural as well.
• 11:22
  Ingrid van der Aa: Mm-hmm.
• 11:22
  Ingrid van der Aa: Where also use the John Whittington, um, tool with his.
• 11:28
  Ingrid van der Aa: Wooden figures, but then made, uh, for a virtual space as well.
• 11:33
  Ingrid van der Aa: Um, yeah, to do mural or either the whiteboard from Zoom depends.
• 11:37
  Ingrid van der Aa: Some everybody uses Zoom.
• 11:39
  Ingrid van der Aa: Sometimes you have to use, um, Microsoft teams for example, and certainly in organizations that they don't find it safe enough or secure enough, or the company has decided they're not allowed to use Zoom.
• 11:51
  Ingrid van der Aa: So then I have to work with alternative um, options, which yeah, yeah.
• 11:56
  Ingrid van der Aa: You know, we are getting creative that way.
• 11:58
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah, that does.
• 12:00
  Tracy Cartwright: It does, doesn't it?
• 12:00
  Tracy Cartwright: This work really to get creative and how you're gonna show up and how you're gonna share it with different people.
• 12:06
  Tracy Cartwright: I get that too.
• 12:07
  Tracy Cartwright: Sometimes I get someone and you think, oh, okay, this is not, they're not grasping this in the way that I'm sharing it, so how can I share this in a way that is easy for them to take on board?
• 12:20
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 12:20
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 12:21
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 12:21
  Tracy Cartwright: Are there certain themes, you know, like in family constellations and we see that there's quite often in families, there are themes.
• 12:30
  Tracy Cartwright: Is it the same in business they have things or.
• 12:34
  Ingrid van der Aa: Yes.
• 12:34
  Ingrid van der Aa: And, and they're not dissimilar to family, I don't think, because like I said, a lot of things, you know, trace back from family, uh, dynamics.
• 12:44
  Ingrid van der Aa: Um, and often it's difficulty in relationships, for example, between leadership, leadership team members.
• 12:51
  Ingrid van der Aa: And then, you know, you come across Parentification, you know, a team member thinks that he's better than the boss or better than the CEO, he knows better.
• 13:00
  Ingrid van der Aa: Um, or, um.
• 13:03
  Ingrid van der Aa: What other things can I think of?
• 13:05
  Ingrid van der Aa: You know, the example of maybe, I dunno if that's related to family.
• 13:10
  Ingrid van der Aa: We can ask you that question as well.
• 13:11
  Ingrid van der Aa: What you think when a previous, um, leader of a team has left and new leader comes in and then on paper, um, he is brilliant, uh, in terms of experience and skills and everything else.
• 13:27
  Ingrid van der Aa: Same with the team.
• 13:28
  Ingrid van der Aa: Very experienced, very.
• 13:29
  Ingrid van der Aa: You know, clever, educated people, but it doesn't seem to work.
• 13:33
  Ingrid van der Aa: And what doesn't it work?
• 13:35
  Ingrid van der Aa: Which one of the reasons could be is that the leader who has left was never acknowledged properly because left in a bad.
• 13:45
  Ingrid van der Aa: Space moment.
• 13:46
  Ingrid van der Aa: Um, maybe, yeah, there was some disagreement with the board or whatever, but left suddenly and was never really acknowledged.
• 13:56
  Ingrid van der Aa: It's about, um, a forgotten family member or Yeah.
• 14:00
  Ingrid van der Aa: Someone who's not aclo acknowledged and then
• 14:03
  Tracy Cartwright: the first wife that dies or, yeah.
• 14:06
  Tracy Cartwright: The, the love that, you know, the husband that went to war and never came back.
• 14:11
  Tracy Cartwright: Yes, yes.
• 14:12
  Tracy Cartwright: That sort of thing and never spoken of again or.
• 14:15
  Ingrid van der Aa: And then the healing or, or, or the systemic sentences that you then use to make it all flow again, that, that's the words I would use in organization is then acknowledging what happened before and say thank you and acknowledging that it wasn't all bad what happened at the end, but they, that person also had brought something good in the system, so acknowledging that and then the system can flow again.
• 14:42
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 14:43
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 14:44
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 14:44
  Tracy Cartwright: There's such a similarity.
• 14:46
  Tracy Cartwright: My understanding is that to have that you start with family constellations before you move into organization.
• 14:52
  Tracy Cartwright: Is that right?
• 14:53
  Tracy Cartwright: Or can you just flow straight into organizational?
• 14:56
  Ingrid van der Aa: That's what I did in my training for myself.
• 14:59
  Ingrid van der Aa: I don't think you necessarily have to, but I felt that was really enriching and really helps me, um, in my work in organizations.
• 15:07
  Ingrid van der Aa: Um, but you can also just start in organizations do it that way.
• 15:12
  Ingrid van der Aa: So.
• 15:13
  Ingrid van der Aa: What I do now is, um, you know, I brought out in, I dunno how much you are aware of that.
• 15:19
  Ingrid van der Aa: I brought in John Whitton to come to Australia to train with us in Sydney for organizational, uh, work, for systemic coaching constellations for coaches who work in organizations.
• 15:31
  Ingrid van der Aa: And that's quite a, um, structured and in intensive, um, training in terms of he has.
• 15:40
  Ingrid van der Aa: Uh, created three fundamentals training, fundamental one, fundamental two, fundamental three, and then after that, also practitioner training, where you really go into step by step into parts of, of learning how to think systemically, how to map the field, so how to learn about constellations, and then really work on your body intelligence of the field.
• 16:02
  Ingrid van der Aa: And then also the third part is the language.
• 16:04
  Ingrid van der Aa: So what language do you use to then go through that step two better?
• 16:09
  Ingrid van der Aa: You know, he calls it step two better rather than healing.
• 16:13
  Ingrid van der Aa: But what are the sentences you use to a step two better so that movement can take place and the system can flow better?
• 16:21
  Ingrid van der Aa: Quite an interesting training he does and and I teach the fundamentals one training in sitting now as well.
• 16:28
  Ingrid van der Aa: And that's, that's a nice way of learning about constellations in the organizational setting.
• 16:34
  Ingrid van der Aa: And you don't necessarily have to have been trained in family constellations for that.
• 16:39
  Tracy Cartwright: Oh, brilliant.
• 16:40
  Tracy Cartwright: I, I've seen John work briefly, some online, but we had a little taste of it a couple of years ago in Sydney.
• 16:46
  Tracy Cartwright: He did a workshop on siblings, I think then.
• 16:49
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm. And it was beautiful.
• 16:50
  Tracy Cartwright: He's got a very gentle soul, wasn't he?
• 16:53
  Tracy Cartwright: That's what he comes across is, yes.
• 16:55
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 16:56
  Tracy Cartwright: Okay.
• 16:57
  Tracy Cartwright: Do you have any examples that you could share with, obviously without breaking any confidentiality or something that you may have read or heard about, that would be a good example for people to understand the dynamics?
• 17:11
  Tracy Cartwright: I know you've given a little example about the leader ahead leaving.
• 17:15
  Tracy Cartwright: I think it was, gave the example of.
• 17:20
  Tracy Cartwright: I think it was summer, I can't remember business.
• 17:22
  Tracy Cartwright: The, the new CEO had come in and the business was really going, not working.
• 17:28
  Tracy Cartwright: And it came down to, um, there was so much, you know, discord within the, the structure of the business.
• 17:34
  Tracy Cartwright: And it came down to the CEO, not acknowledging the tea lady came first.
• 17:39
  Tracy Cartwright: She'd been with the business since the day it had started.
• 17:42
  Tracy Cartwright: Um, it was something along those lines.
• 17:44
  Tracy Cartwright: So yeah.
• 17:45
  Tracy Cartwright: Is there anything that you can, well.
• 17:48
  Ingrid van der Aa: Yeah, that's beautiful that you say that example because I was thinking of a similar.
• 17:53
  Ingrid van der Aa: Concept as actually what you were saying.
• 17:55
  Ingrid van der Aa: 'cause as an exercise I always love doing, which gives so much information.
• 18:01
  Ingrid van der Aa: Um, is the living history and that's what what you're talking about.
• 18:04
  Ingrid van der Aa: Mm. The living history exercise where you either go and stand in a line.
• 18:11
  Ingrid van der Aa: Of people in that organization or in a circle.
• 18:14
  Ingrid van der Aa: And then you can think of a clock where 12 o'clock is the person who's been there first stance, who's been the longest in the organization.
• 18:23
  Ingrid van der Aa: Mm-hmm.
• 18:23
  Ingrid van der Aa: And it could be team or it could be the Yeah.
• 18:26
  Ingrid van der Aa: Um, department, or depends with how many people you want to do it.
• 18:30
  Ingrid van der Aa: And then the next person who joined is goes towards, um, three o'clock, and then up until, you know, 11 o'clock is, is the most recent person who joined that organization.
• 18:42
  Ingrid van der Aa: So in that example, what you just gave is the tea lady was there before.
• 18:46
  Ingrid van der Aa: And a B, C was a number 12, and the CEO was six o'clock maybe.
• 18:51
  Ingrid van der Aa: It's then so beautiful to actually visually see that who was in that organization first, and acknowledge that you were here first and may have some of these sentences.
• 19:02
  Ingrid van der Aa: Thank you for being that first, because that makes space for me to arrive as well.
• 19:07
  Ingrid van der Aa: And, and then it's not the hierarchical organic gram Hey, you're talking about Yes.
• 19:12
  Ingrid van der Aa: CEO is always on top of the, uh, organogram is almost like the most important.
• 19:17
  Ingrid van der Aa: Because then you don't talk about, um, linear system.
• 19:21
  Ingrid van der Aa: You talk about, um, yeah, the systemic way of looking at the organization with the inter at one of the principles, which is, uh, time, um, you know, who was here first and who was there before you, uh, which in families is ancestors or is is the grandparents or is the founders, et cetera.
• 19:42
  Ingrid van der Aa: But you can do that in, in different questions.
• 19:45
  Ingrid van der Aa: So one is like, yes, who was here first?
• 19:48
  Ingrid van der Aa: Um, but also you can do it in otherwise who was, for example, if you, um, are with the team and they're all in a certain department, like the IT department who has been in software engineering the longest to do it in discipline or, um.
• 20:07
  Ingrid van der Aa: So different ways, but it really, um, makes visual the dynamics of organization or the different hierarchies and, and the different connections in organizations immediately.
• 20:19
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 20:20
  Ingrid van der Aa: Beautiful.
• 20:20
  Tracy Cartwright: I saw that example in Sydney.
• 20:24
  Tracy Cartwright: Hmm, this last, uh, last year, but it was in, from the time you met Constellations to where you are now.
• 20:31
  Tracy Cartwright: And it was really interesting because there was some older people in the room and, and you would naturally assume they're gonna go to the top end, to the end of being there, but some of them hadn't.
• 20:41
  Tracy Cartwright: And then there was a couple of young ones.
• 20:44
  Tracy Cartwright: Young, well, I say young, I'm 56, so they were like in their late twenties, early thirties, and.
• 20:51
  Tracy Cartwright: They actually went to the front because they, they had been in, constellations, had been in, so the question was when we, you first became aware and you started to, um, experience constellations, not necessarily when you first became a facilitator.
• 21:06
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm-hmm.
• 21:07
  Tracy Cartwright: And so this pers some of these people went to the front in front of us and it was like, wow.
• 21:12
  Tracy Cartwright: So you visually would not have thought that, um, oh, they've been in it longer.
• 21:19
  Tracy Cartwright: Or those other people, they're much older.
• 21:22
  Tracy Cartwright: They will have been there, but actually it was quite the opposite.
• 21:25
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah, it was a really great experience to, to see that and then look down the line.
• 21:29
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 21:30
  Ingrid van der Aa: And how was that for you?
• 21:31
  Ingrid van der Aa: You were in that line?
• 21:32
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah, I was in that line, yeah.
• 21:34
  Tracy Cartwright: And I was sort of more towards, um, the more experienced end, but it was, it was great.
• 21:39
  Tracy Cartwright: And to see the people around me and Yeah.
• 21:42
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 21:43
  Tracy Cartwright: And, and, and it's
• 21:44
  Ingrid van der Aa: finding your place there, eh?
• 21:45
  Ingrid van der Aa: It's
• 21:46
  Tracy Cartwright: finding a place that's a great experience.
• 21:48
  Ingrid van der Aa: Your true place again is, is right.
• 21:50
  Ingrid van der Aa: What is the truth here?
• 21:51
  Ingrid van der Aa: What is the truth for that particular question?
• 21:53
  Ingrid van der Aa: And what's the truth here is where do I. Belong or where do I fit?
• 21:58
  Ingrid van der Aa: Where is my place here?
• 21:59
  Ingrid van der Aa: And if that feels right, then things settle set in your body, in your system.
• 22:05
  Tracy Cartwright: That's right.
• 22:06
  Tracy Cartwright: It's
• 22:06
  Ingrid van der Aa: one example of, um, in the organization where that was done, where the one at number 12 was, um, about to retire, but he was delaying the retirement and wasn't until that visual exercise.
• 22:22
  Ingrid van der Aa: And then I think the leader was, was uh, uh, nine o'clock or 10 o'clock and acknowledged that he was there first.
• 22:32
  Ingrid van der Aa: That settled so much in him that he said, now I'm ready to retire.
• 22:36
  Ingrid van der Aa: Thank you.
• 22:37
  Tracy Cartwright: Wow.
• 22:39
  Tracy Cartwright: Having that acknowledgement.
• 22:40
  Tracy Cartwright: Hey,
• 22:41
  Ingrid van der Aa: and by that visual exercise.
• 22:44
  Tracy Cartwright: Oh, great.
• 22:45
  Ingrid van der Aa: Yeah.
• 22:46
  Tracy Cartwright: What else?
• 22:47
  Tracy Cartwright: I'm always asking, waiting for the field to me.
• 22:49
  Tracy Cartwright: Some drop me some bombs that I can.
• 22:52
  Tracy Cartwright: Put some questions in there.
• 22:53
  Tracy Cartwright: What are one of the, some of the major shifts that you have experienced or, um, either as on your learning journey or as when you were training or within, within work that you've done, has there been anything that you've seen that has just gone like a full.
• 23:12
  Tracy Cartwright: Shifted something so big that you thought, wow, and it was a little movement that happened and then it went.
• 23:17
  Tracy Cartwright: Has there been anything like that that you've experienced?
• 23:19
  Ingrid van der Aa: Yeah.
• 23:19
  Ingrid van der Aa: Yeah.
• 23:20
  Ingrid van der Aa: Um, I'm thinking of two, two things.
• 23:21
  Ingrid van der Aa: One is my own learning, uh, experience, and I don't know if it's major, but I think it's major in terms of the learning is how surprising it is.
• 23:34
  Ingrid van der Aa: To trust your yourself and trust your body and that it's almost like a surprise each time.
• 23:41
  Ingrid van der Aa: But it's like it's, to me, that's, that's a major all the time.
• 23:45
  Ingrid van der Aa: Wow.
• 23:46
  Ingrid van der Aa: It is.
• 23:47
  Ingrid van der Aa: My body knows this.
• 23:48
  Ingrid van der Aa: I can, and trusting the field, like you said, like trusting the field that a question will come.
• 23:52
  Ingrid van der Aa: And when you're open to that and when you notice and when you really trust your body, it works.
• 23:56
  Ingrid van der Aa: And it's so fascinating, this embodied or somatic work.
• 24:00
  Ingrid van der Aa: Um, so that I think is just.
• 24:03
  Ingrid van der Aa: Just major for me in my learning process.
• 24:05
  Ingrid van der Aa: And that's actually still happening every day and every time I do it.
• 24:09
  Ingrid van der Aa: That's almost like with trained that you, you have to trust your brains or something and that.
• 24:14
  Ingrid van der Aa: Mm-hmm.
• 24:15
  Ingrid van der Aa: And that you, when you let that go, that's so much more information and other information comes to you.
• 24:20
  Ingrid van der Aa: And that's the beauty which, which.
• 24:23
  Ingrid van der Aa: So attractive to me, and that seduces me to continue with this work, that surprising experience each time again, and each time again with new things you discover.
• 24:35
  Ingrid van der Aa: So that's, I think, yeah, to me, the beauty of this work, um, and also to notice sometimes that you're a bit less open, um, because it's all about, uh, you know, this work is about distance zooming out and compassion without judgment.
• 24:51
  Ingrid van der Aa: And then I also realize I'm a person and sometimes judgment comes in, but it doesn't serve me.
• 24:57
  Ingrid van der Aa: But also being aware that sometimes you're also just a human being and you get stuck or you are suddenly judging or, or what I've also noticed once with, with, with a coaching session, that distance that, that sometimes I get sucked in and then I get.
• 25:14
  Ingrid van der Aa: Almost emotionally involved.
• 25:16
  Ingrid van der Aa: I had that bit with a one-on-one coaching session and, and I was, um, that was actually in person and I was driving home and, and it was a really a situation where some mom, a woman was bullied in her workplace and obviously something, I dunno, triggered me, but I got emotionally involved and I drove home and I was.
• 25:38
  Ingrid van der Aa: Crying in the car.
• 25:39
  Ingrid van der Aa: It's like, how is it possible in this day and age that someone gets bullied like this?
• 25:45
  Ingrid van der Aa: You know?
• 25:45
  Ingrid van der Aa: And I was thinking English, you're the coach.
• 25:47
  Ingrid van der Aa: You are drawn in.
• 25:49
  Ingrid van der Aa: You have not been able to, to look at this from a distance and, and you know, the compassion became too much empathy almost.
• 25:56
  Ingrid van der Aa: And so I needed some supervision and I think we all need to have our own coaches as well to really think like, and I felt like I was.
• 26:06
  Ingrid van der Aa: I couldn't help her.
• 26:07
  Ingrid van der Aa: I wanted to help her.
• 26:09
  Ingrid van der Aa: Uh, and I felt like, oh, in this huge infa organization, which is a male dominated company, I'm trying to help and I hear this bullying stories and, and I was drawn in and it was not until I had that supervision, I went back to tell.
• 26:24
  Ingrid van der Aa: Centered myself.
• 26:25
  Ingrid van der Aa: And I remember the supervisor saying, yeah, Ingrid, you, you're just, you know, a drop in the ocean and you are there to empower that person, but that drop can then create a ripple effect.
• 26:36
  Ingrid van der Aa: And reminding myself again, it's not about being helpful, it's about being useful and how can I be useful?
• 26:45
  Ingrid van der Aa: So, hey, it's almost standing on the edge.
• 26:47
  Ingrid van der Aa: Yeah.
• 26:47
  Ingrid van der Aa: So I get, um, reminded of that all the time, but that's some that also human.
• 26:52
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 26:53
  Tracy Cartwright: Absolutely.
• 26:54
  Tracy Cartwright: And, and sometimes that it brings up stuff for us to, you know, like in our own field, eh, in our family systems as well.
• 27:01
  Tracy Cartwright: Yes, absolutely.
• 27:02
  Tracy Cartwright: Whether we're conscious of it or not.
• 27:03
  Tracy Cartwright: So, and, and if we can be aware of that when it's coming in or Yeah.
• 27:09
  Tracy Cartwright: Something's activating us or triggering us, or whatever words you wanna use.
• 27:14
  Tracy Cartwright: Um,
• 27:15
  Ingrid van der Aa: yeah.
• 27:16
  Tracy Cartwright: I'm noting that I'm gonna look at that.
• 27:19
  Ingrid van der Aa: Yes.
• 27:20
  Ingrid van der Aa: And that, and that's the beauty.
• 27:21
  Ingrid van der Aa: And then there is this whole community, uh, who is there to, I feel supporting me has the tea, my teachers, but also my peers and supervisors and, um, yeah, that's very resourcing.
• 27:36
  Ingrid van der Aa: Yeah.
• 27:36
  Tracy Cartwright: Absolutely.
• 27:37
  Tracy Cartwright: And so do you offer supervision as well?
• 27:40
  Tracy Cartwright: I know you've said shared that your training, is supervision something that you offer to others?
• 27:44
  Ingrid van der Aa: I've started to do that, yes.
• 27:47
  Ingrid van der Aa: Yes.
• 27:47
  Ingrid van der Aa: To, uh, teach and supervise other coaches as well.
• 27:51
  Ingrid van der Aa: Yeah.
• 27:51
  Tracy Cartwright: Hmm.
• 27:52
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah, brilliant.
• 27:53
  Tracy Cartwright: Sydney's a pretty big place too, isn't it?
• 27:55
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 27:56
  Tracy Cartwright: But then you can, this beauty of this work is we can do it online.
• 27:59
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 28:00
  Tracy Cartwright: Um, speaking of online, that's how you and I got to connect was through the isca, the International Systemic Constellation Association, the Australasian, um, branch, and we, we did a, um, presentation for the international branch.
• 28:18
  Ingrid van der Aa: Yes.
• 28:19
  Tracy Cartwright: Around sort of like, well, it was our offering from down under to the rest of the world.
• 28:26
  Tracy Cartwright: And I remember you did a beautiful piece, um, connected to the river.
• 28:31
  Tracy Cartwright: Yes.
• 28:32
  Ingrid van der Aa: Thinking yeah.
• 28:33
  Ingrid van der Aa: That
• 28:34
  Tracy Cartwright: was, you were sharing with me then about your name.
• 28:37
  Ingrid van der Aa: Are you still involved in that?
• 28:39
  Tracy Cartwright: Um, a little bit.
• 28:40
  Tracy Cartwright: I haven't, I haven't 'cause I'm much more involved with Anki, the Art New Zealand Constellation Association that, um, that I helped to found.
• 28:51
  Tracy Cartwright: So yeah, I go when I can to that.
• 28:55
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 28:56
  Ingrid van der Aa: And it was so nice to then after that meet you in person in the Austral lady.
• 29:01
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 29:01
  Ingrid van der Aa: Intensive, constellation intensive.
• 29:04
  Ingrid van der Aa: That is so special.
• 29:04
  Ingrid van der Aa: Pretty much.
• 29:05
  Tracy Cartwright: That's right.
• 29:06
  Ingrid van der Aa: Yeah.
• 29:07
  Tracy Cartwright: I remember rightly, and I'm not sure if you can recall what you did, it was a beautiful exercise around the river.
• 29:15
  Tracy Cartwright: We call it the awa.
• 29:16
  Ingrid van der Aa: Okay.
• 29:16
  Ingrid van der Aa: And,
• 29:18
  Tracy Cartwright: um, do you remember what you did?
• 29:20
  Ingrid van der Aa: I remember vaguely what I did.
• 29:23
  Ingrid van der Aa: I, you know, I remember that I, that the title was Rivers of Thinking and that I did an exercise, uh, on.
• 29:30
  Ingrid van der Aa: The, the details of the exercise, I cannot remember.
• 29:34
  Tracy Cartwright: I was thinking, oh, I gonna, can you
• 29:36
  Ingrid van der Aa: remember?
• 29:37
  Tracy Cartwright: No.
• 29:38
  Tracy Cartwright: But I do remember it was really touching and um, nice.
• 29:41
  Tracy Cartwright: And I felt, yeah, I loved it.
• 29:44
  Tracy Cartwright: 'cause uh, I do a little bit of work around the mountains as well, so now I'm actually working on with both, it kind of inspired me to, um, really get in touch with that part of myself as well.
• 29:54
  Tracy Cartwright: So, yeah, just acknowledging that, uh, that you've inspired me there, so,
• 30:00
  Ingrid van der Aa: oh, thank you.
• 30:02
  Ingrid van der Aa: So what kind of work or do you do with mountains?
• 30:06
  Ingrid van der Aa: Or can you,
• 30:07
  Tracy Cartwright: so for us, the mountains and the rivers, uh, the ocean are our, the waters are very, um, important to us.
• 30:16
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm-hmm.
• 30:17
  Tracy Cartwright: And, um, as they are to a lot of cultures.
• 30:20
  Tracy Cartwright: Right.
• 30:21
  Tracy Cartwright: So I do an exercise where I invite you to.
• 30:25
  Tracy Cartwright: Me to get, to have someone to represent the mountain that you are, that you have near you, that is your mountain, that is the one that resources you, maybe it's the mountain you were born under or near, um, and then a mountain from the land of your ancestors.
• 30:43
  Tracy Cartwright: And it could be any, right?
• 30:44
  Tracy Cartwright: So if we're like me, a multitude of, uh, melting pot could be anywhere in the world.
• 30:51
  Ingrid van der Aa: Yeah.
• 30:53
  Tracy Cartwright: Then, uh, the river that is sacred to you here in this lifetime, and then that one of your ancestors.
• 31:00
  Tracy Cartwright: And so you are in the middle of the four of them and it is quite an amazing experience.
• 31:05
  Tracy Cartwright: I did one and I, I was giving an example and it got really intense and really deep when I was going give this example, but I held it together and it was my Scandinavian, so I have AMI ancestry and it.
• 31:21
  Tracy Cartwright: Oh, it was just so deep and so beautiful.
• 31:25
  Tracy Cartwright: Meeting my mountain and the rivers from, from there.
• 31:30
  Ingrid van der Aa: Oh, and Sammy is, is the north of Finland, eh?
• 31:32
  Ingrid van der Aa: Or north of North.
• 31:33
  Ingrid van der Aa: Oh, it's, it's all up through the top.
• 31:34
  Ingrid van der Aa: Through the top of
• 31:35
  Tracy Cartwright: Scandinavia.
• 31:36
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 31:36
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 31:37
  Tracy Cartwright: Beautiful.
• 31:37
  Tracy Cartwright: And um, yeah.
• 31:40
  Tracy Cartwright: And I figured, yeah, it was like a coming home.
• 31:43
  Tracy Cartwright: It was a part of that.
• 31:44
  Tracy Cartwright: You know, like I haven't, and I haven't touched on too many others yet because I, I've decided that it's probably best, I don't give too many examples when I'm running workshops 'cause I drop in quite deep and I have a whole little experience and I'll just, would you like to be, would you like to do an example for me so I'll get someone else to do it?
• 32:01
  Tracy Cartwright: So, so having, so meeting my samami at Mountain, my Samami River and then, um, bringing them.
• 32:09
  Tracy Cartwright: To be with me to meet my mountain and my river that are with me now.
• 32:14
  Tracy Cartwright: And, uh, finding that peace, you know, like you've got the waters that flow through you and the, and the earth that has fed the bones of your ancestors.
• 32:22
  Tracy Cartwright: It's just quite a beautiful process and for everyone that does it, it's slightly different, the experience that they obviously were all unique, so they're gonna get their own experience from it.
• 32:31
  Tracy Cartwright: But, uh, and it, it can get quite big for some people.
• 32:35
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 32:36
  Ingrid van der Aa: You live close to mountains now as well.
• 32:38
  Ingrid van der Aa: Then in New Zealand
• 32:39
  Tracy Cartwright: there's a couple of islands and it's full of volcanoes.
• 32:43
  Ingrid van der Aa: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 32:43
  Ingrid van der Aa: Yes.
• 32:44
  Ingrid van der Aa: That
• 32:44
  Tracy Cartwright: way.
• 32:45
  Ingrid van der Aa: Surrounded by it.
• 32:46
  Ingrid van der Aa: Yes.
• 32:46
  Ingrid van der Aa: Yeah.
• 32:46
  Ingrid van der Aa: Yeah.
• 32:47
  Ingrid van der Aa: Interesting.
• 32:47
  Ingrid van der Aa: Because while you're talking about the mountains and where you come from, I'm thinking, you know, as you know, I come from the Holland in the Netherlands and the south of Holland, but there's no mountains in Holland.
• 32:57
  Ingrid van der Aa: So there is, you know, there are no mountains and uh.
• 33:02
  Ingrid van der Aa: Yeah, but I guess it's, it's what your resources and obviously your, your two mountains, because that's your ancestry.
• 33:10
  Ingrid van der Aa: I guess for me it's them water.
• 33:11
  Ingrid van der Aa: It's interesting.
• 33:12
  Ingrid van der Aa: So maybe I'm now reflecting on that.
• 33:14
  Ingrid van der Aa: You know, it's, it's, do you maybe,
• 33:16
  Tracy Cartwright: maybe it becomes the land then and not, you know.
• 33:20
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 33:20
  Tracy Cartwright: I mean the mountains are part of the land, right?
• 33:22
  Tracy Cartwright: They're a higher peak.
• 33:23
  Tracy Cartwright: But yeah, it could say, 'cause I have someone else who said that to me.
• 33:26
  Tracy Cartwright: They were from, um, Sweden and the area that they were from, there were no mountains.
• 33:30
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 33:31
  Tracy Cartwright: Okay.
• 33:31
  Tracy Cartwright: Flat for miles, she said.
• 33:34
  Tracy Cartwright: So it was like, okay, we just go to the lands.
• 33:36
  Tracy Cartwright: Yes.
• 33:37
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah, yeah.
• 33:38
  Ingrid van der Aa: Yeah.
• 33:39
  Ingrid van der Aa: Yeah.
• 33:39
  Ingrid van der Aa: And, and I realized, you know, when, how I introduced myself with, with name from a river and now I live in Manley, which is the ocean.
• 33:47
  Ingrid van der Aa: So, uh, you know, it's like, it's individual what resources you as well, and, and maybe it's something to do for me more.
• 33:53
  Ingrid van der Aa: Now I'm reflecting on it.
• 33:55
  Ingrid van der Aa: With water and, and, and I've learned to do some ocean swimming on only the last two, three.
• 34:02
  Ingrid van der Aa: That's right.
• 34:03
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 34:03
  Ingrid van der Aa: And, um, I never imagined myself to be able to do that, but I, I went through it.
• 34:08
  Ingrid van der Aa: And what I also think.
• 34:10
  Ingrid van der Aa: Really relates to that resourcing me.
• 34:14
  Ingrid van der Aa: Uh, so it's nature, but also how nature, and certainly swimming in the ocean has a connection with breath because you need to learn.
• 34:22
  Ingrid van der Aa: I had to learn to freestyle because I, in Holland, I only swim with breaststroke and it's all about breathing and how you breathe in and how you breathe out.
• 34:31
  Ingrid van der Aa: And the minute you do that, you know, it's that connection with your body again, and then your body in nature, but is really.
• 34:38
  Ingrid van der Aa: Centering yourself.
• 34:39
  Ingrid van der Aa: So that's the resourcing and that also always helps me when I'm in the ocean.
• 34:45
  Ingrid van der Aa: I'm not trying to be there twice a week.
• 34:47
  Ingrid van der Aa: That centers me and that helps me for the work that I do.
• 34:51
  Ingrid van der Aa: You know, it, it's huge resource, that nature and that surrounding where you live and where I feel I belong as well.
• 34:59
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 34:59
  Tracy Cartwright: Wow.
• 35:00
  Tracy Cartwright: You are keen Ocean swimming in Australia.
• 35:03
  Ingrid van der Aa: I know.
• 35:04
  Ingrid van der Aa: I never imagined it to be possible, but it, yeah, if it's possible, well done.
• 35:08
  Ingrid van der Aa: I always say if I can do it and how, you know, my background was a breaststroke and only three years ago I learned to swim freestyle through a whole program, which was a, a charity who helps you to learn to ocean swim.
• 35:21
  Ingrid van der Aa: It took me six months, but now I can say I'm.
• 35:25
  Ingrid van der Aa: Happy to swim in the ocean.
• 35:27
  Ingrid van der Aa: Not in any condition, not on my own.
• 35:30
  Ingrid van der Aa: Mm-hmm.
• 35:30
  Ingrid van der Aa: Yeah, it's beautiful.
• 35:32
  Tracy Cartwright: A lot of what I've seen of Australia has been really quite rolling,
• 35:37
  Ingrid van der Aa: very powerful.
• 35:37
  Ingrid van der Aa: And that can be Manley,'cause Manley is a surf beach.
• 35:41
  Ingrid van der Aa: It's also can be gentle.
• 35:42
  Ingrid van der Aa: And there's little bay called Shelly Beach just off Manley Beach.
• 35:45
  Ingrid van der Aa: And that whole bay is one big nature reserve and that's very calm.
• 35:50
  Ingrid van der Aa: And normally in general?
• 35:52
  Ingrid van der Aa: Um, yeah.
• 35:53
  Ingrid van der Aa: So when it's very wild, I don't swim because it can, that's dangerous, certainly for me.
• 35:58
  Ingrid van der Aa: Uh, but it's often that bay is calm and then you see all the little fish in there.
• 36:03
  Ingrid van der Aa: So that's, uh,
• 36:04
  Tracy Cartwright: it's a goal.
• 36:05
  Tracy Cartwright: With the ocean swimming.
• 36:06
  Tracy Cartwright: Are you planning to do.
• 36:09
  Tracy Cartwright: Or this is a challenge for you?
• 36:10
  Ingrid van der Aa: This was a challenge for me to learn to swim one kilometer.
• 36:13
  Ingrid van der Aa: Um, and I, you have different events in the summer in Sydney, in different beaches.
• 36:18
  Ingrid van der Aa: So my first event was, uh, north Bondi Beach, one kilometer, but I was a mentor who swam with me.
• 36:25
  Ingrid van der Aa: I didn't do it totally on my own.
• 36:27
  Ingrid van der Aa: And that was then, you know, the challenge like, oh, I'm able to swim one kilometer.
• 36:31
  Ingrid van der Aa: It felt like surviving the first time it didn't feel like swimming.
• 36:34
  Ingrid van der Aa: It felt like, oh, I survived.
• 36:36
  Ingrid van der Aa: But the more you do it, of course, the easier it gets.
• 36:39
  Ingrid van der Aa: And, and it is, you know, to me that they're very nerve wracking.
• 36:43
  Ingrid van der Aa: And for me it's just that I live in Manly.
• 36:46
  Ingrid van der Aa: My goal is just that I can comfortably feel I can.
• 36:50
  Ingrid van der Aa: Swim in the ocean and enjoy it.
• 36:53
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 36:53
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 36:54
  Tracy Cartwright: Beautiful.
• 36:54
  Tracy Cartwright: Well, well done.
• 36:55
  Tracy Cartwright: Well done.
• 36:56
  Tracy Cartwright: And yeah, you're right.
• 36:57
  Tracy Cartwright: Like the waves, just the cleansing.
• 37:00
  Tracy Cartwright: 'cause they have negative ions, don't they?
• 37:02
  Tracy Cartwright: So, and you are doing this sort of work, it's really good to go and immerse yourself.
• 37:07
  Tracy Cartwright: It's just being at the beach, the ions in the ear just help to shift the energy.
• 37:11
  Tracy Cartwright: So
• 37:12
  Ingrid van der Aa: recharging apparently.
• 37:13
  Ingrid van der Aa: Yeah.
• 37:13
  Ingrid van der Aa: From all the electronics, uh, that we use.
• 37:17
  Ingrid van der Aa: And you put your fan.
• 37:18
  Ingrid van der Aa: Your, your feet in the sand and in the water you get, you know, discharged and back with nature and
• 37:25
  Tracy Cartwright: yeah.
• 37:26
  Tracy Cartwright: That's when we go to Collaroy and we do the, um, intensives over there.
• 37:30
  Tracy Cartwright: They have the, um, the ocean pool.
• 37:33
  Tracy Cartwright: Yes.
• 37:33
  Tracy Cartwright: I love that.
• 37:34
  Tracy Cartwright: 'cause we don't have them here, so that's really a bit of a novel novelty for us.
• 37:38
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 37:38
  Tracy Cartwright: To go and have a Yeah.
• 37:40
  Tracy Cartwright: Have a splash around there.
• 37:41
  Ingrid van der Aa: Yeah.
• 37:42
  Ingrid van der Aa: Yeah.
• 37:43
  Ingrid van der Aa: Happening again in October.
• 37:44
  Ingrid van der Aa: Are you coming to Sydney for that?
• 37:47
  Tracy Cartwright: I'm going to Mexico.
• 37:48
  Ingrid van der Aa: Oh, that's, uh,
• 37:49
  Tracy Cartwright: later in the month.
• 37:50
  Tracy Cartwright: So, um, I will actually be in, in Sydney in October for Maria Len's.
• 37:57
  Tracy Cartwright: Um, uh, last training he.
• 38:02
  Tracy Cartwright: I'll go on to Mexico from there.
• 38:04
  Tracy Cartwright: So I'm presenting at the Iska event there.
• 38:09
  Tracy Cartwright: Are you?
• 38:09
  Tracy Cartwright: Oh, I'm jealous.
• 38:10
  Ingrid van der Aa: That's amazing.
• 38:12
  Tracy Cartwright: Actually, I'm bringing in, um, the, it's got the returning to south and it's around the mountain and the awa, the, the river.
• 38:19
  Tracy Cartwright: So.
• 38:20
  Ingrid van der Aa: Oh, beautiful.
• 38:21
  Ingrid van der Aa: So my son, um, has sort of.
• 38:26
  Ingrid van der Aa: Sort of has a new girlfriend, was almost a year now from Mexico.
• 38:31
  Ingrid van der Aa: Beautiful.
• 38:31
  Ingrid van der Aa: Yeah.
• 38:32
  Ingrid van der Aa: So, uh, I'm, uh, and I've been to Mexico City once, but it's beautiful.
• 38:36
  Ingrid van der Aa: Yeah.
• 38:37
  Ingrid van der Aa: Oh
• 38:38
  Tracy Cartwright: yeah.
• 38:38
  Tracy Cartwright: I have, I've, my daughter and I hopped over to Tijuana, uh, for a day when she went a, we, she, one trip to LA for us to go and see Lady Gaga and we extended it and we went down to San Diego and then we.
• 38:53
  Tracy Cartwright: We just walked through this gate and we discovered that we were in Mexico.
• 38:57
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm-hmm.
• 38:57
  Tracy Cartwright: And we had a day in Tijuana.
• 38:59
  Tracy Cartwright: Fantastic.
• 39:00
  Tracy Cartwright: And then trying to get outta Mexico and back into the United States.
• 39:03
  Tracy Cartwright: Oh, what a mission that was.
• 39:05
  Tracy Cartwright: That was just kind of walked through these gates and we were there.
• 39:07
  Tracy Cartwright: And then yeah, getting out was another thing.
• 39:10
  Tracy Cartwright: But cacao also, uh, Mexico also has, um, so much cacao and there's the origins of cacao in there and so much history for me.
• 39:20
  Tracy Cartwright: So I'm also, um.
• 39:22
  Tracy Cartwright: That's another thing that I do is I make my own cacao.
• 39:27
  Tracy Cartwright: Oh, wow.
• 39:28
  Tracy Cartwright: And I, yeah, but I use, um, beans from the Pacific Islands 'cause there's so much of it growing here in the Pacific.
• 39:35
  Tracy Cartwright: It has a very different frequency to the South American cacao.
• 39:39
  Tracy Cartwright: But I'm really looking forward to spending a bit of extra time there and going to the trees and, yeah.
• 39:46
  Ingrid van der Aa: Oh, I love to, uh, to taste some of it.
• 39:48
  Ingrid van der Aa: I met my husband through chocolate.
• 39:51
  Ingrid van der Aa: We were both working for Mars Confection, the chocolate factory in the uk.
• 39:56
  Ingrid van der Aa: That's how we met.
• 39:58
  Ingrid van der Aa: And um, yeah, so I have a relationship with chocolate as well that way.
• 40:02
  Ingrid van der Aa: And, and the other is that I'm addicted to it.
• 40:05
  Ingrid van der Aa: I love chocolate, so I would to taste your chocolate.
• 40:09
  Tracy Cartwright: We'll see what we can do.
• 40:10
  Tracy Cartwright: We'll see if I can get you some, yeah, yeah,
• 40:11
  Ingrid van der Aa: yeah, yeah.
• 40:11
  Ingrid van der Aa: So your cacao, and then do you make it into something edible then?
• 40:16
  Tracy Cartwright: Well, cacao itself is edible.
• 40:18
  Tracy Cartwright: I make it into, um, blocks, big, big blocks.
• 40:21
  Tracy Cartwright: Just chop it up how they want it, or they can get it in little pods.
• 40:24
  Tracy Cartwright: But, uh, and I, a chocolate, but it's very, it's like 79%.
• 40:30
  Tracy Cartwright: So very dark.
• 40:32
  Tracy Cartwright: Mm. And, and I put some plant, uh, plant medicines, blue Lotus in Kawa Kawa, which is a native here in New Zealand to help open the heart more.
• 40:43
  Tracy Cartwright: Connecting in there, and it's like the driving force and the blue lotus is really beautiful for opening and expanding your awareness.
• 40:51
  Tracy Cartwright: Um, so it's more of, um, not one you would just have if you're watching a movie or want, you know, wanting a snack, but more something that you would have if you wanted to meditate.
• 41:01
  Tracy Cartwright: And be more mindful.
• 41:02
  Ingrid van der Aa: Yeah.
• 41:03
  Tracy Cartwright: Going into situation like that.
• 41:05
  Tracy Cartwright: So,
• 41:06
  Ingrid van der Aa: and then a drink as well as a drink or
• 41:08
  Tracy Cartwright: you can make it into a drink.
• 41:10
  Tracy Cartwright: Yep.
• 41:10
  Tracy Cartwright: The cacao, you can, you can just as your base and make yourself a drink.
• 41:14
  Tracy Cartwright: Some people like to add sweeteners or spices and stuff like that.
• 41:18
  Tracy Cartwright: Ginger and cinnamon or chili and yeah, there's all sorts of things you can do with it.
• 41:25
  Tracy Cartwright: I don't temporary either.
• 41:27
  Tracy Cartwright: So that's the other thing that most chocolate is tempered, so it's all shiny and snappy and mine's not
• 41:34
  Ingrid van der Aa: okay.
• 41:34
  Ingrid van der Aa: Yep.
• 41:35
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 41:36
  Tracy Cartwright: Um, between constellations and making cacao and trying to keep it as, as tra you know, like a processed as possible.
• 41:43
  Tracy Cartwright: People seem to like it has a different flavor.
• 41:45
  Tracy Cartwright: But yeah, so finger in two different pies there, but they both really support each other.
• 41:52
  Tracy Cartwright: Cacao really supports constellations and um, and when I have things that aren't kind of moving with my cacao, I use constellations to help me to understand what's going on there as well sometimes.
• 42:04
  Ingrid van der Aa: Yeah.
• 42:04
  Ingrid van der Aa: Yeah.
• 42:04
  Ingrid van der Aa: So, so now with Mexico you are gonna have a different type of cacao then probably.
• 42:10
  Ingrid van der Aa: And different taste.
• 42:11
  Ingrid van der Aa: Or
• 42:11
  Tracy Cartwright: it'll be a different taste.
• 42:12
  Tracy Cartwright: It has a very, well, it's a different grown, different lands and I do know I have experienced some other South American cacao that's, it's a very different, um, it's more, um, earthy, whereas the Pacific stuff is quite fruity.
• 42:27
  Tracy Cartwright: Okay.
• 42:28
  Tracy Cartwright: Would people find you, I know that you've given me some details and we're gonna share them in the link, but for those who are audible, who like to to hear it, can you share how people can find you if they're wanting to work with you?
• 42:39
  Ingrid van der Aa: Yeah, so I'm on LinkedIn with my surname, uh, or with my name Ingrid van R. You can find me on LinkedIn.
• 42:46
  Ingrid van der Aa: Um, I have a website which is called Art of Coaching, like, um, yeah, people can't see it, but I'm on the screen.
• 42:54
  Ingrid van der Aa: I have an coaching background in Zoom.
• 42:57
  Ingrid van der Aa: Um, so that's, uh, art of coaching.co.
• 43:00
  Ingrid van der Aa: CO. Yeah.
• 43:01
  Ingrid van der Aa: And there are all my contact details, so my emails and my.
• 43:05
  Ingrid van der Aa: My telephone number are on there, both LinkedIn and also on the website.
• 43:09
  Ingrid van der Aa: That's the easiest, I guess.
• 43:10
  Ingrid van der Aa: Also to read a little bit more about what I do
• 43:14
  Tracy Cartwright: and so it's not just big businesses.
• 43:16
  Tracy Cartwright: You work with small businesses as well?
• 43:18
  Ingrid van der Aa: Yeah, or mainly
• 43:19
  Tracy Cartwright: all of it.
• 43:20
  Ingrid van der Aa: Yeah.
• 43:20
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 43:20
  Tracy Cartwright: All of it.
• 43:21
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 43:22
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 43:22
  Tracy Cartwright: Fantastic.
• 43:23
  Tracy Cartwright: Fantastic.
• 43:23
  Tracy Cartwright: There are
• 43:25
  Ingrid van der Aa: no, where there are, um, issues with.
• 43:28
  Ingrid van der Aa: Relationship because it's, it's a relational, I guess, at work.
• 43:33
  Ingrid van der Aa: Mm. Um,
• 43:34
  Tracy Cartwright: so yeah, like I suppose if you, if you, if your job right and you discover that, so say you're in a managerial position, this is just me putting a hypothetical thing out there, and you've got, and every time you go there, you have the same issue that your bosses and you have a.
• 43:52
  Tracy Cartwright: An idea that yours is a certain way and that makes you leave to the next position, there's something really good to look at there.
• 43:58
  Ingrid van der Aa: Absolutely.
• 43:59
  Ingrid van der Aa: So, you know, the, the, um, the process different to families is the process of joining belonging.
• 44:06
  Ingrid van der Aa: Leaving because in a family you always belong if you like it or not.
• 44:10
  Ingrid van der Aa: Mm-hmm.
• 44:11
  Ingrid van der Aa: You leave it.
• 44:12
  Ingrid van der Aa: An organization is that joining belonging and leaving and, and organizations are often good at the endings and that can cause all sorts of issues and that that often can then itself unless you look at it properly, so that that's some systemic work, some constellation work.
• 44:28
  Ingrid van der Aa: That can be done there.
• 44:29
  Ingrid van der Aa: But it's like you said, um, you know, when you feel stuck in a job or when you have a, a relationship, uh, difficult with the boss, but that seems to reoccur each time.
• 44:41
  Ingrid van der Aa: Or, um, you know, when people are not engaged and talent is leaving.
• 44:46
  Ingrid van der Aa: As a leader, you want to look at that, what's, what's happening there?
• 44:49
  Ingrid van der Aa: Just maximize.
• 44:51
  Ingrid van der Aa: Leadership potential is just, you know, what, work through some issues that, that people to do.
• 44:56
  Ingrid van der Aa: And another topic, which is often mentioned is people find it hard to have difficult conversations.
• 45:03
  Ingrid van der Aa: So, and how do you, yeah, yeah.
• 45:04
  Ingrid van der Aa: So you can consulate that as well.
• 45:06
  Ingrid van der Aa: Um, or, you know, a dysfunctional or even toxic relationships.
• 45:10
  Ingrid van der Aa: How do you deal with that?
• 45:12
  Ingrid van der Aa: All these things you can look at at, um, yeah.
• 45:15
  Ingrid van der Aa: With the, with the Constellation lens very much.
• 45:17
  Ingrid van der Aa: Do
• 45:18
  Tracy Cartwright: you think that there's a reason why organizations find it so hard?
• 45:22
  Tracy Cartwright: Were the endings.
• 45:23
  Ingrid van der Aa: Yeah, no.
• 45:24
  Ingrid van der Aa: That the, the reason, what is the reason?
• 45:26
  Ingrid van der Aa: Um,
• 45:27
  Tracy Cartwright: like is there a main reason or is there, like, yeah.
• 45:29
  Ingrid van der Aa: Saying, saying goodbye seems to can also be in, in, you know, of course in, in families saying goodbye, if you think about it as an ending, as a death.
• 45:39
  Ingrid van der Aa: Um, how well is death celebrated or looked at or, um, in this world?
• 45:46
  Ingrid van der Aa: I have actually had recently with, with some of my friends discussions about that, you know, birth is celebrated and it is beautiful and it talks about a lot.
• 45:55
  Ingrid van der Aa: And then death is like if someone is still mourning.
• 46:00
  Ingrid van der Aa: You, it's almost like, okay, no, uh, you know, it's now a month ago, you should get on with it.
• 46:05
  Ingrid van der Aa: You know, just do it while in the old days or some cultures, it's you're all wearing black whole year, you're allowed to mourn for a year.
• 46:13
  Ingrid van der Aa: Also in Catholic, uh, religion where, which is my background, um, you have lots of services still in the church mass.
• 46:21
  Ingrid van der Aa: That, that you still remind you of the people who have passed and that, that year is important.
• 46:27
  Ingrid van der Aa: Wow.
• 46:28
  Ingrid van der Aa: Nowadays it's more like, okay, that's done.
• 46:31
  Ingrid van der Aa: Uh, get on with it.
• 46:32
  Ingrid van der Aa: Um, but that's not how we as human beings have.
• 46:35
  Ingrid van der Aa: Good.
• 46:36
  Ingrid van der Aa: Yes.
• 46:36
  Ingrid van der Aa: So that's, you know, also with, with death, but it's with endings in, in your job and or job is your identity, um, is how to attend to that can be done better?
• 46:46
  Ingrid van der Aa: Yes.
• 46:47
  Ingrid van der Aa: Yeah, sometimes you know, hear stories is like people be told, sorry, and your job is made redundant, and because of the sensitivity of the data you are dealing with in the organization, you have to pack up all your belongings.
• 47:00
  Ingrid van der Aa: Now, here is a box for you with a body guard.
• 47:02
  Ingrid van der Aa: You get escorted out, you know?
• 47:05
  Ingrid van der Aa: Wow.
• 47:05
  Ingrid van der Aa: Terrible as if you're a criminal.
• 47:07
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 47:08
  Ingrid van der Aa: So, you know, that's, that's not easy.
• 47:10
  Ingrid van der Aa: So the important that, that can then be it too.
• 47:13
  Ingrid van der Aa: So how do you cope with that?
• 47:15
  Ingrid van der Aa: How do you or how have a proper ending to still be able to say, this is what I contributed to the business.
• 47:22
  Ingrid van der Aa: This is what I got out of it.
• 47:23
  Ingrid van der Aa: This is what I leave with them as some toxic environments or whatever.
• 47:28
  Ingrid van der Aa: And this is what I take with me to the next job.
• 47:31
  Ingrid van der Aa: So we have a clean ending and a clean start.
• 47:35
  Ingrid van der Aa: And, and that can also, you know, with families.
• 47:37
  Ingrid van der Aa: With, with things that you have taken on you, which belongs to ancestors.
• 47:42
  Ingrid van der Aa: Yeah.
• 47:42
  Ingrid van der Aa: Is to give back what belongs to others and keep and take what belongs to you.
• 47:48
  Ingrid van der Aa: And the same applies to jobs and organizations.
• 47:53
  Ingrid van der Aa: Yeah.
• 47:54
  Tracy Cartwright: Fantastic.
• 47:55
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 47:56
  Tracy Cartwright: Fantastic.
• 47:57
  Tracy Cartwright: It's in there.
• 47:57
  Tracy Cartwright: So much to unpack.
• 47:58
  Tracy Cartwright: We've been talking for nearly an hour.
• 48:00
  Tracy Cartwright: That's just gone so fast.
• 48:02
  Tracy Cartwright: That's amazing.
• 48:03
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 48:03
  Tracy Cartwright: Thank you so much for, um, sharing this time with us today.
• 48:07
  Tracy Cartwright: Thank you.
• 48:09
  Tracy Cartwright: Yeah.
• 48:09
  Tracy Cartwright: For those who.
• 48:11
  Tracy Cartwright: Um, have heard something on this podcast that you feel like, oh, that's, yeah, that's really talking to me.
• 48:15
  Tracy Cartwright: Reach out to Ingrid.
• 48:17
  Tracy Cartwright: Um, you can find her, her details on my, on the website, Ingrid's website, on my website.
• 48:24
  Tracy Cartwright: And also, um, yeah, the details that she shared online.
• 48:28
  Tracy Cartwright: So thank you so much.
• 48:31
  Tracy Cartwright: Thank you.
• 48:32
  Tracy Cartwright: Thank you for listening.
• 48:34
  Tracy Cartwright: Head over to Instagram and tell me what's resonated for you with this episode.
• 48:38
  Tracy Cartwright: You'll find me at Tracy dot Cartwright.
• 48:42
  Tracy Cartwright: That's Tracy with no e dot Cartwright and the or head over to my website, Tracy cartwright.co.nz and receive a free audio with the gift from your ancestors.
• 48:54
  Tracy Cartwright: So until next time, be kind to yourself and have fun doing it.