Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #1104 - I Don't Like Your Friends

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#1104 - I Don't Like Your Friends · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

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  Speaker 1: It's their Happy Family's podcast.
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  Speaker 2: It's the podcast for the time poor parent who just
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  Speaker 2: wants answers Now.
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  Speaker 1: When I was a child, my mom, my mom, she
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  Speaker 1: was very concerned about her daughters and their friendships, and
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  Speaker 1: she in feared a fair bit. There was quite a
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  Speaker 1: lot of friends with disapproval around my sisters and I
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  Speaker 1: have four of them, so I can say this reasonably
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  Speaker 1: safely and their friends and as a general rule, that
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  Speaker 1: interference tended to make things worse. There was one time
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  Speaker 1: with one of my sisters, she had a strong keen
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  Speaker 1: interest in a young man and my parents were so
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  Speaker 1: concerned about that keen interest that they shipped her off
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  Speaker 1: to some family friends in Queensland to try to avert
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  Speaker 1: any disasters that might happen if that relationship was allowed
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  Speaker 1: to flourish. And guess what, Kylie, it made it worse. Hello,
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  Speaker 1: my name is doctor Justin Coslam. Here with my wife
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  Speaker 1: from UM to our six kids, missus happy families, Kylie.
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  Speaker 1: And today the conversation is we interfere with our children's friendships, Kylie.
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  Speaker 1: Have you ever been tempted? Have you ever interfered? Have
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  Speaker 1: you sat the kids down and said we've got a
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  Speaker 1: problem here, and it's your friends, and it's the way
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  Speaker 1: that you're acting after you've been with certain friends.
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  Speaker 2: You're hilarious. We have six girls, We've had plenty of opportunities.
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  Speaker 1: Oh my goodness, Oh my goodness, I know, and it's
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  Speaker 1: so hard.
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  Speaker 2: Relationships are tricky, and especially when they're young and immature
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  Speaker 2: and navigating this, and let's be real, it's still tricky
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  Speaker 2: as adults.
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  Speaker 1: Did you ever have this happen when you were a kid, Like,
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  Speaker 1: did your parents ever sit you down and say, don't
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  Speaker 1: like your friends, you need to change friendship groups.
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  Speaker 2: I don't actually remember a single conversation like that. I
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  Speaker 2: do remember once in my youth being friends with a
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  Speaker 2: girl who was a little bit rebellious and she was
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  Speaker 2: struggling to kind of work herself out, and plenty of
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  Speaker 2: my other friend's parents had all spoken to my mum
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  Speaker 2: about this girl and told her that they didn't think
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  Speaker 2: that my parents should be encouraging our friendship. And my
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  Speaker 2: mum did something really good. I think she literally told
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  Speaker 2: these parents that she trusted me to make good choices
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  Speaker 2: and that she hoped that my light, my goodness, would
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  Speaker 2: rub off on this girl. And so my friendship with
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  Speaker 2: her continued until I got to a point where I went,
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  Speaker 2: you know what, I'm not ready for this. This isn't
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  Speaker 2: the kind of friendship I want.
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  Speaker 1: I think one of the central challenges that we face
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  Speaker 1: here as well, Kylie, is that when we do interfere
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  Speaker 1: with our children and their friendship groups or their friendships generally, well,
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  Speaker 1: friendship groups are just tricky. There are several reasons for that.
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  Speaker 1: One of those is, have you ever tried to change
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  Speaker 1: a friendship group? Like watching your kids try to go
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  Speaker 1: from group A to group B can be an exercise
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  Speaker 1: in I almost want to use the word trauma. It
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  Speaker 1: can be so so hard.
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  Speaker 2: Well, I think that across the board people see it
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  Speaker 2: as an act of disloyalty.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, what a great word for it.
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  Speaker 2: You've been loyal to this group and all of a
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  Speaker 2: sudden you're changing, and so the new group's looking at you, going, well,
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  Speaker 2: if things don't go well here, what are you going
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  Speaker 2: to do? You're just going to ditch us? And they
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  Speaker 2: don't want to put in the time and energy into
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  Speaker 2: a person who seems wishy washy.
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  Speaker 1: And their commitments, and the group that you're leaving feel
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  Speaker 1: completely rejected, like what are we not good enough? You
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  Speaker 1: too bad for us. And I guess the other thing
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  Speaker 1: that I would add is that when you do interfere
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  Speaker 1: with your friendship groups, how does it make your child
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  Speaker 1: feel when you start to say, don't like who you
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  Speaker 1: are when you hang out with that kid. Your children
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  Speaker 1: don't really hear the friendship issue. They really just here,
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  Speaker 1: don't like who you are. You're behaving differently, and that
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  Speaker 1: increases that sense of shame, it increases anxiety. And so
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  Speaker 1: in your research that I want to talk about in
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  Speaker 1: today's podcast highlights that it gets worse when you interfere
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  Speaker 1: with your children's friendships. It can actually reduce the number
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  Speaker 1: of classmates who enjoy your child's company and increase the
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  Speaker 1: number who say they dislike them. So there's a brand
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  Speaker 1: new study that's just been published in the Journal of
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  Speaker 1: Child Psychology and Psychiatry. Is by a couple of Lithuanian researchers.
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  Speaker 1: I can't announce their name, so I'm not going to
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  Speaker 1: try to do it, but it's really really interesting. Five
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  Speaker 1: hundred and sixty two students across six primary schools a
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  Speaker 1: surveyed across a twelvemonth period, and essentially the research looks
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  Speaker 1: at how much parents are interfering with friendships, and how
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  Speaker 1: much those kids are engaging in behaviors that are well
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  Speaker 1: anti social or rebellious or challenging, smoking, drinking, skipping school, lying,
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  Speaker 1: and cheating. We are talking about grades six kids here,
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  Speaker 1: so some of these are pretty high level challenging behaviors
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  Speaker 1: for children at that age. But what's really fascinating is
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  Speaker 1: that when mums attempted to shepherd children away from relationships
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  Speaker 1: that they thought were bad for their child, they inadvertently
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  Speaker 1: created a problem where they worse than the behavioral issues.
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  Speaker 1: The kids feel worse about themselves, they end up being
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  Speaker 1: rejected by classmates, and then they behave in even more
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  Speaker 1: challenging ways.
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  Speaker 2: Again, does the article give us any hope?
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, So, if your children are like, how do you
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  Speaker 1: interfere effectively? Is that what you're saying? How do I intervene?
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  Speaker 1: How do I make sure that my children are going
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  Speaker 1: to be okay if I don't like who they're hanging
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  Speaker 1: out with. It's a really tricky one. I thought this
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  Speaker 1: quote from the lead research I can't actually pronounce his name.
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  Speaker 1: His name was Brett Lawson. He says this, and it's
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  Speaker 1: really interesting. Youth may report restrictions and their reasons to
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  Speaker 1: their friends. In other words, if you express disapproval to
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  Speaker 1: your child about a friendship that they're in, your child's
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  Speaker 1: probably going to go and blab that to their friends.
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  Speaker 2: Well, of course, because then it gives them an excuse
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  Speaker 2: or a reason behind why they can't hang out with
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  Speaker 2: that group after school, or why they're not allowed to
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  Speaker 2: go to the birthday party or whatever. It makes mum
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  Speaker 2: and dad the bad person, and hopefully in their minds,
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  Speaker 2: will keep the attachment and the loyalty of the friendship.
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  Speaker 1: Even at a basic level, though, they just don't have
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  Speaker 1: the skills to know what to say and what not
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  Speaker 1: to say. So if they're trying to leave a group
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  Speaker 1: and they say, who know good enough for you, and
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  Speaker 1: the child says, Mum just says that I'm not a
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  Speaker 1: very nice person to hang around you. It doesn't like
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  Speaker 1: the child can't win in this situation. If they try
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  Speaker 1: to communicate it, they've got no chance. Lawson also, ads
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  Speaker 1: or mothers may express their disapproval directly to friends. Mum
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  Speaker 1: shows up at the school bag all the kids are
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  Speaker 1: playing in the street or whatever in the park, are
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  Speaker 1: in the yard, and Mom says, no, don't like, don't
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  Speaker 1: like the way this friendship's going. Not happy with what's
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  Speaker 1: going on here, and either way the kids are they've
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  Speaker 1: got no chance here. They can't come back from that.
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  Speaker 1: Lawson says. Neither are likely to be welcomed by recipients.
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  Speaker 1: Friends may respond by spreading contempt or ridicule throughout the
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  Speaker 1: peer group. Social opportunities are likely to wither as peers
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  Speaker 1: avoid affiliating with someone who is depicted as uncool.
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  Speaker 2: So here's the challenge. And I have watched this time
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  Speaker 2: and time again over the course of six children and
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  Speaker 2: friendships in general, when there is challenge within a relationship,
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  Speaker 2: it is two ways, right, there is a reciprocal relationship.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, and anyone who can't admit that has some significant
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  Speaker 1: blind spots.
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  Speaker 2: Okay, but most of the time parents feel that their
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  Speaker 2: child is being victimized. I'm not talking about bullying, and
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  Speaker 2: I need to make that really clear.
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  Speaker 1: Sure, yes, yes, yeah.
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  Speaker 2: But in normal, everyday communication and relationship there is challenge regularly,
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  Speaker 2: and it is a two way street.
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  Speaker 1: Because relationships are tricky.
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  Speaker 2: They are tricky and they're hard. But as parents, we
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  Speaker 2: hurt when our children hurt, and therefore we see them
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  Speaker 2: as the victim and not part of the challenge, and
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  Speaker 2: it makes it really really hard for our children to
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  Speaker 2: learn and grow if we're constantly stepping in and telling
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  Speaker 2: them that they're not in the wrong at all, and
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  Speaker 2: the other person is the big bully.
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  Speaker 1: I really like that. There's one other thing that I
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  Speaker 1: would add, and that is that when we do step in,
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  Speaker 1: even if we can be impartial and clear eye and
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  Speaker 1: objective about it, if we make comments that are disparaging
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  Speaker 1: about a relationship, about a friendship, it makes the people
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  Speaker 1: in that relationship feel lousy about themselves, and it turns
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  Speaker 1: them against us and maybe our child as well.
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  Speaker 2: It also, in turn gives our children permission to focus
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  Speaker 2: on the negative behaviors, the negative traits in others. We
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  Speaker 2: ourselves have similar negative traits and behaviors, we all do,
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  Speaker 2: but we allow our children to see others for the
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  Speaker 2: challenge as opposed to the goodness that they possess.
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  Speaker 1: All right, So let's talk about what we're supposed to do,
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  Speaker 1: because every now and again there are relationships that our
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  Speaker 1: children have where we feel like we really do need
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  Speaker 1: to interfere. So how do we do my friends with
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  Speaker 1: that kid a little bit earlier? I love what you
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  Speaker 1: said before about your mum's example here, she just trusted
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  Speaker 1: in your innate goodness. She trusted that you were able
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  Speaker 1: to figure this out for yourself. And it's really hard
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  Speaker 1: for me to say this, and I know it's really
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  Speaker 1: hard for every helicopter parent on the planet to hear it.
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  Speaker 2: I don't even think you have to be a helicopter parent.
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  Speaker 2: I think this is hard. Relationships are hard watching it.
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  Speaker 1: Parent who wants to interfere. I mean, we want to
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  Speaker 1: get in there and make sure that our kids are
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  Speaker 1: okay and make sure that they're not behaving in challenging ways,
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  Speaker 1: make sure they're not doing the wrong thing. As a
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  Speaker 1: general rule. As a general rule, so long as there's
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  Speaker 1: no bullying going on, and so long as your child
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  Speaker 1: is not at real proper risk of real proper harm,
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  Speaker 1: then I would say leave it alone. Just we've got
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  Speaker 1: to stay out of it. It's worked pretty well for
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  Speaker 1: us as a general rule with our kids. In fact,
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  Speaker 1: you know what's really really interesting to me, there have
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  Speaker 1: been a few friendships that our children have had where
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  Speaker 1: I've wanted to interfere. I've wanted to say, you know what,
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  Speaker 1: I don't think that kid's quite the right one for you.
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  Speaker 1: To be friends with. Can't you find another friend? We've
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  Speaker 1: stayed out of those relationships. We've let our children figure
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  Speaker 1: it out, and over time, some of those friendships have
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  Speaker 1: become the most enduring and positive relationships that our children
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  Speaker 1: have had. And in other instances, our children have naturally
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  Speaker 1: grown apart from that friend as time has gone on
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  Speaker 1: and things haven't felt quite right. There's real wisdom in
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  Speaker 1: just staying out of it, not helicoptering, and giving them space.
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  Speaker 2: Last week and I'll do better tomorrow, I shared the
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  Speaker 2: experience of sitting down with Emily and talking about some
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  Speaker 2: of the qualities that make a good friend. Yes, And
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  Speaker 2: through that conversation we talked about what she could do things,
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  Speaker 2: what areas could she focus on to be a better friend? Relationships?
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  Speaker 2: Are these really really tricky part of our lives where
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  Speaker 2: there is so much richness and opportunity for learning and growth,
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  Speaker 2: And as parents, when we step in, we actually often
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  Speaker 2: hinder our children's ability to grow.
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  Speaker 1: But that conversation you had with her, and I don't
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  Speaker 1: know if you've still got the paperwork here in our
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  Speaker 1: little podcast study, you don't have it, Okay, Those six
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  Speaker 1: things that she came up with to be a better friend.
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  Speaker 1: They were facilitated through a conversation not about a specific friendship,
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  Speaker 1: but about friendship generally, and they were profound. I mean,
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  Speaker 1: this little ten year old's brain and hard just absolutely gorgeous.
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  Speaker 1: What she came up with, it was tremendous. So if
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  Speaker 1: you're concerned about friendships, maybe having that sort of a discussion,
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  Speaker 1: and if you'd like to go more in depth, just
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  Speaker 1: go back to last Friday hour. I'll do better tomorrow
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  Speaker 1: because that's where the real gold was there. There are
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  Speaker 1: two other things that I want to highlight here. The
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  Speaker 1: first one is that if you do interfere, first of all,
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  Speaker 1: this research highlights that it can be quite negative. One
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  Speaker 1: of my colleagues at the University of Rochester, Professor Chris Niemik,
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  Speaker 1: did a study about ten years ago looking at the
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  Speaker 1: forbidden fruit of forbidden friendships and pretty much found the
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  Speaker 1: same thing that when parents interfere, the kids are drawn
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  Speaker 1: more to their friends, they start to resist their parents.
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  Speaker 2: I was about to say, you actually become the bad guy,
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  Speaker 2: not the friend. The friend that you're trying to protect
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  Speaker 2: your child from becomes the forbidden fruit, and you become
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  Speaker 2: a person who is untrustworthy.
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  Speaker 1: They start to shift away from us as parents at
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  Speaker 1: the very time that we feel like they need is
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  Speaker 1: the most. And this study here again, let me just emphasize,
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  Speaker 1: as parents demonstrate reduced per acceptance and start to interfere,
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  Speaker 1: their children become less popular at school over the subsequent
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  Speaker 1: twelve months and they have more conduct issues. In other words,
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  Speaker 1: it doesn't work. It's a bad idea. Explore explain in
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  Speaker 1: power talk about friendships more generally, but nothing specific. And
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  Speaker 1: I think overall, the take home message from today's conversation
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  Speaker 1: is when you don't like your children's friends, trust your kids,
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  Speaker 1: don't hover, give them space. They'll work it out over time,
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  Speaker 1: and so long as they're safe, it will be okay.
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  Speaker 1: We will link to that study in the show notes
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  Speaker 1: as well as Chris nemix Forbidden Fruit Forbidden Friendship study,
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  Speaker 1: so that you can have a quick look if you're
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  Speaker 1: inclined to look at the academic side of things. They
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  Speaker 1: Happy for podcast is produced by Justin Ruland from Bridge Media,
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: And if you'd like more information about our awesome, incredible
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: parenting autism course, we have an early bird special on
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: the course right now. You can find all the information
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