Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #216 Rapid fire Q&A with Susan Engel

Transcript

#216 Rapid fire Q&A with Susan Engel · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

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  Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the
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  Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers.
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  Speaker 2: Now, I'm a fiction reader, and anybody who's a fiction
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  Speaker 2: reader knows that a big part of fiction is gossip.
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  Speaker 2: You're peering into the life of someone else, and you're
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  Speaker 2: peering into the mind of the author. What could be
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  Speaker 2: more delicious and juicy. So I link gossip and fiction
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  Speaker 2: very closely.
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  Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, my mum
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  Speaker 1: and dad.
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  Speaker 3: Hello, this is doctor Justin Coulson.
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  Speaker 4: I written six books about raising happy families, and I'm
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  Speaker 4: a parent to six daughters with my co host and wife, Kylie,
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  Speaker 4: who you know best as missus Happy Families. And before
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  Speaker 4: you start talking, because I can see that it's on
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  Speaker 4: the type of your time, I'm so excited about today
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  Speaker 4: because we're going to talk about gossip.
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  Speaker 3: That's all I'm saying. That's all I'm saying.
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  Speaker 5: Oh, you're such a tease. I was going to talk.
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  Speaker 4: About that, and you can more about gospend a sec.
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  Speaker 4: But I'm excited for today, that's all I'm saying.
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  Speaker 5: Well, for the last two wednesdays, we've been talking with
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  Speaker 5: Susan Engel, who's an educator and researcher in the areas
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  Speaker 5: of psychology and education, as well as authoring the books
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  Speaker 5: The Hungry Mind, The Origins of Curiosity in Childhood, and
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  Speaker 5: The Intellectual Lives of Children.
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  Speaker 4: So if you've missed the last couple of interviews, it's
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  Speaker 4: worth going back. We'll link to the last two episodes
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  Speaker 4: in the show notes. I've made this abundantly clear. I
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  Speaker 4: really love what Susan has done, especially with her book
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  Speaker 4: The Hungry Mind. I've said it before and I'll say
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  Speaker 4: it again. If you're an education or if you're a
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  Speaker 4: parent who cares about your children's learning, I just think that.
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  Speaker 3: It's compulsory reading.
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  Speaker 4: It's such a great book, highly recommended by yours truly.
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  Speaker 5: Well, you were a bit of a tease at the beginning,
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  Speaker 5: but I'm going to ask question anyway. Welcome back to
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  Speaker 5: the podcast, Susan.
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  Speaker 2: Okay, great to talk to you.
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  Speaker 5: In The Hungry Mind, you talk about gossip and how
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  Speaker 5: it fuels learning. Justin gave us a little bit of
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  Speaker 5: teas at the beginning, But can you explain more about
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  Speaker 5: this idea?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, so mystery fuels learning. We've talked about that things
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  Speaker 2: that are unexpected, things that make you want to delve in,
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  Speaker 2: whether it's a pile of bugs under some leaves, or
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  Speaker 2: whether it's a topic you've never thought about before.
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  Speaker 4: And this is why clickbait works so well in new sites, right,
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  Speaker 4: because they clickbait works so well in new sites, right
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  Speaker 4: because yes, mystery, Oh what's behind the title here?
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  Speaker 2: Then there's some really interesting new research showing the way
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  Speaker 2: in which you can do a kind of you can
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  Speaker 2: feed your curiosity online with that kind of clickbaiting, or
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  Speaker 2: the way in which you can avoid really learning about
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  Speaker 2: anything because you're just skimming. That's a whole other topic. So,
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  Speaker 2: but Google can be a child's friend if it's got,
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  Speaker 2: if they're encouraged to use it in a good way,
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  Speaker 2: and if they're encouraged to just kind of pursue something
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  Speaker 2: in depth rather than jumping around for little, little quick
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  Speaker 2: hits of pleasure. But gossip is so human. Wanting to
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  Speaker 2: know what other what's happening in the lives of other
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  Speaker 2: people is just about as human as you can get.
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  Speaker 2: And while not all people are equally interested in gossip,
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  Speaker 2: many people like it a lot, and kids like it
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  Speaker 2: so at a pretty early age, kids want to know,
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  Speaker 2: you know, did you really throw up before you got
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  Speaker 2: to school today. I heard you did, and are you
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  Speaker 2: trying out for band? Because I'm going to try out,
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  Speaker 2: and you know, how would you get on the test?
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  Speaker 2: And a lot of that, or did you really kiss
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  Speaker 2: her in the hallway? I mean, kids do the same
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  Speaker 2: thing grown ups do. They want to know about other people.
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  Speaker 2: And who doesn't love a good story about a neighbor
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  Speaker 2: or a rival or a teacher. Oh my god, kids
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  Speaker 2: love gossip about teachers. And I think if we understood
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  Speaker 2: that it's a very healthy form of gossip, and I
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  Speaker 2: mean of curiosity and a way to encourage kids to
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  Speaker 2: gather knowledge, we take a different stance towards it. Actually,
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  Speaker 2: there's some great research about the way in which humans
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  Speaker 2: everywhere use gossip as a form of cautioning to children
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  Speaker 2: to teach them what are the expected norms and their culture.
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  Speaker 2: So you tell cautionary tales when you gossip who did
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  Speaker 2: the wrong thing and got in trouble and had a
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  Speaker 2: bad end, And so we instinctively use gossip for good
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  Speaker 2: purposes as well as bad ones. But I would just
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  Speaker 2: end this by saying that one thing that I think
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  Speaker 2: people overlook but I'm comfortable saying because I'm a I
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  Speaker 2: love gossip. I've already told you that. I mean, after all,
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  Speaker 2: I'm a psychologist, I always want to know more about people.
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  Speaker 2: And two, I'm a fiction reader. And anybody who's a
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  Speaker 2: fiction reader knows that a big part of fiction is gossip.
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  Speaker 2: You're peering into the life of someone else, and you're
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: peering into the mind of the author. What could be
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  Speaker 2: more delicious and juicy. So I link gossip and fiction
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  Speaker 2: very closely. And I think if grown ups understood that
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  Speaker 2: some of the time that children are kit chatting about
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  Speaker 2: other people, they're probably just paving the way for being
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  Speaker 2: really great fiction readers or fiction writers. It would give
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  Speaker 2: them a different a different view of it.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, all psychologists.
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  Speaker 4: Okay, So one last quick question for your saysm before
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  Speaker 4: we dive into this rapid fire. When we were talking earlier,
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  Speaker 4: you talked about boredom and how boredom, when when you
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  Speaker 4: were a child, was a spark or an opportunity for
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  Speaker 4: you to get curious and explore and very there's a
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  Speaker 4: big trend for the last few years about encouraging parents
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  Speaker 4: to let their children be.
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  Speaker 3: Bored because when children are boord they get.
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  Speaker 4: To explore and learn and discover and become creative and
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  Speaker 4: so forth. I also argue, though, that boredom is often
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  Speaker 4: quite unhealthy. Boredom is associated with depression, boredom is associated
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  Speaker 4: with any number of negative outcomes, and boredom is often
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  Speaker 4: associated with delinquent behavior.
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  Speaker 3: When kids get bored, they go.
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  Speaker 4: And start to stir up their sister or their brother,
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  Speaker 4: and you know, they graffiti all over a wall or
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  Speaker 4: something like that. So I'm really curious about where boredom
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  Speaker 4: can be positive and how it can be negative, and
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  Speaker 4: how parents can manage that in such a way that
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  Speaker 4: they give their children the benefits of boredom without the downside.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, well I don't. I don't have a magic formula there,
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  Speaker 2: but but there is there. It is complicated because kids.
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  Speaker 2: I was thinking before about when I first said that
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  Speaker 2: my kids had a lot of free time when they
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  Speaker 2: were little, and how it's not a good idea to
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  Speaker 2: overstructure your child's after school life for their weekends. But
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  Speaker 2: it is true that children who have who are stuck
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  Speaker 2: watching TV all the time or who are left at
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  Speaker 2: home with that because their parents don't have the opportunity
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  Speaker 2: to be with them, you know, at the end of
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  Speaker 2: the school day, so it's often not the parent's fault.
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  Speaker 2: It's society's fault for imposing a difficult life on them.
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  Speaker 2: Those kids suffer kind of boredom that isn't good for them.
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  Speaker 2: They become restless, or their mind turns off, or they
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  Speaker 2: turn to trouble, and it's terrible anyway. It's just not
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  Speaker 2: a good good way to live. So uh, there is,
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  Speaker 2: if not a formula, some magical equation there, a little
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  Speaker 2: bit of boredom goes a long way, I would put
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  Speaker 2: it that way. And it's one thing to give your
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  Speaker 2: child unstructured time in a fairly interesting, nice environment, whether
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  Speaker 2: it's nice because they get to play on a safe
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  Speaker 2: sidewalk with other neighbors, or because they're in a park,
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  Speaker 2: or because they're in a house where they can explore.
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  Speaker 2: I don't mean here plush and luxurious. I mean both
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  Speaker 2: safe and interesting, filled with things that would be interesting
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  Speaker 2: to examine or create or build. When that that is
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  Speaker 2: a is a good kind of boredom because it's it
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  Speaker 2: allows them to explore and to fall on their own resources.
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  Speaker 2: But that's different than sort of being having a kind
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  Speaker 2: of barren and deprived environment. And I'm not talking about that.
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  Speaker 2: You know, so unstructured time where kids have to figure
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  Speaker 2: out what they want to do or make things or
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  Speaker 2: you know, poke around and investigate. That's wonderful and that's
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  Speaker 2: the kind of boredom. Also, I will say daydreaming is
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  Speaker 2: a good thing for kids, but not daydreaming all day
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  Speaker 2: or for hours on end, because them kids are lonely
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  Speaker 2: and they and they do go a little nutty, So
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  Speaker 2: I don't mean that.
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  Speaker 5: So, Susan, just to wrap up our final chat with you,
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  Speaker 5: we thought it would be fun to play a bit
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  Speaker 5: of a game. We call it the Past five, where
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  Speaker 5: we shoot through five rapid questions.
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  Speaker 4: Okay, so Susan, if we were to ask your kids
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  Speaker 4: their favorite things to do with you, they're in their
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  Speaker 4: thirties now, but what would they say.
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  Speaker 2: I think they'd stay talking with.
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  Speaker 3: Me, hm, being curious about the world together.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, a nice way to put it. We also like
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  Speaker 2: to eat together and take hikes together. But talking is
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  Speaker 2: the number one.
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  Speaker 5: What's your trickiest parenting moment as you reflect on the years?
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  Speaker 2: Oh my god. I wrote a piece about this in
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  Speaker 2: The New York Times a few years ago, the most
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  Speaker 2: circulated thing I've ever written, because it was about how
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  Speaker 2: agonizing it is to watch your grown up children go
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  Speaker 2: through painful experiences. By far, that's the hardest thing, watching
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  Speaker 2: your grown up children face adversity.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 4: I often reflect that they don't have to be grown
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  Speaker 4: up to find it hard.
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  Speaker 3: Just what your children go through hard things is such true, terrible.
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  Speaker 2: It's just when they're little you have more agency, or
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  Speaker 2: when they're grown up you just have to sit there
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  Speaker 2: and be miserable.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 4: Question number three, if you could spend an hour with
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  Speaker 4: your children at any age at all, what age would
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  Speaker 4: you choose and why?
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  Speaker 2: That's an impossible question for me Right now, I'd say
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  Speaker 2: now now as grown ups, I love having grown up children.
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  Speaker 2: I love being with my kids. So two of my
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  Speaker 2: sons live right next door with their partners and their
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  Speaker 2: brand new babies, And so how could I wish them
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  Speaker 2: to be any other age than the age they are?
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  Speaker 2: That said, you can tell I like being a mom,
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  Speaker 2: and I loved it when they were little too, Maybe
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  Speaker 2: because they had boys, or maybe I lucked out. I
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  Speaker 2: really liked having teenagers. I thought it was really fun
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  Speaker 2: of teenage kids. Ye for everybody, No, that's definitely not
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  Speaker 2: I found it fun.
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  Speaker 5: No matter how good life has been, and how glad
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  Speaker 5: you are to be in the moment with your thirty
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  Speaker 5: plus year old kids. What are you still looking forward
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  Speaker 5: to as a mom or maybe even a grandma.
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  Speaker 2: Seeing them thrive? I mean, you know, I'm too old
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  Speaker 2: for you to ask for me to give the usual
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  Speaker 2: kind of answer to that. Too. Many of the things
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  Speaker 2: I have to look forward to are not that good.
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  Speaker 2: But and now watching them, Ohio, I have an answer.
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  Speaker 2: Watching them be parents. It has been amazing, amazing and
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  Speaker 2: so something I would never have expected, and I didn't
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  Speaker 2: think about one second before my grandchildren were born. But
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  Speaker 2: it's quite overwhelming in a good way, to watch your
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  Speaker 2: own children be parents.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, last question, Susan, if you could go back to
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  Speaker 4: Susan Engle as a young mom having one of those
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  Speaker 4: tough moments, with no experience being a parent at all,
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  Speaker 4: what advice would you give yourself.
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  Speaker 2: Well, I was a working mom, and I would give
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  Speaker 2: myself the advice of slowing down a little and not
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  Speaker 2: being in such a rush all the time and just
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  Speaker 2: cherish more of the moments I had with them.
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  Speaker 3: Such great advice, such a wonderful conversation.
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  Speaker 4: If people want to know more about you, the work
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  Speaker 4: that you do your books. I mean, you've written extensively.
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  Speaker 4: The book that I have been talking about primarily is
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  Speaker 4: The Hungry Mind. But where do people go to find
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  Speaker 4: out more about Susan Engle.
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  Speaker 2: Well, there's plenty about me on the web, on whatever
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  Speaker 2: it's called the Internet. I've given a lot of talks
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  Speaker 2: that are on the Internet, the worldwide where Bay almost said,
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  Speaker 2: but that's really out of date. I have a new
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  Speaker 2: book called The Intellectual Lives of Children that picks up
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  Speaker 2: with the Curiosity book left off. I don't know they
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  Speaker 2: can write to me whatever.
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  Speaker 5: Susan, thanks so much for being so generous with your
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  Speaker 5: time in sharing some wonderful wisdom.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you so much, Susan.
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  Speaker 4: Okay, so that concludes our conversation with Susan, the author
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  Speaker 4: of The Hungry Mind, which addresses curiosity in children, and
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  Speaker 4: her latest book is The Intellectual Lives of Children, which
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  Speaker 4: picks up right where A Hungry Mind left off. Professor
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  Speaker 4: Susan Engel, we really hope that you've enjoyed the podcast
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  Speaker 4: and that it has helped you to make your family
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  Speaker 4: happier and do great things in your family. Speaking of
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  Speaker 4: people who have enjoyed the podcast, Jess, this Nickname is
• 12:40
  Speaker 4: Too Common has given us a five star review on
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  Speaker 4: Apple Podcasts. I love the names that people come up
• 12:45
  Speaker 4: with when they put their ratings and reviews in just
• 12:48
  Speaker 4: this Nickname is Too Common has said five stars. Opening
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  Speaker 4: doors for new perspective and more love for my children.
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  Speaker 4: She says, I'm a new listener thoroughly enjoying the topics explored.
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  Speaker 4: The information which comes from experience in scientific find things
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  Speaker 4: to go along with it is invaluable. I'm already a
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  Speaker 4: mother who endeavors to parent mindfully and kindly, but listen
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  Speaker 4: to the podcast is absolutely opening doors for new perspective
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  Speaker 4: and in turn more love for my children. It's a
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  Speaker 4: wonderful added bonus that they're Aussie's too, because hey, Ozzie's
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  Speaker 4: are great.
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  Speaker 5: So I'm loving that she's a new listener.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, great to have you along.
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  Speaker 2: Jest.
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  Speaker 4: Thanks so much for taking time out to leave a
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  Speaker 4: rating and review. If you do enjoy the podcast, please
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  Speaker 4: do what Jes did and leave those five star ratings
• 13:25
  Speaker 4: and reviews, because that way other people get to find
• 13:27
  Speaker 4: out about the podcast and make their families happier. We
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  Speaker 4: really appreciate the work of Justin Roland, our producer from
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  Speaker 4: Bridge Media and our executive producer, Craig Bruce. If you'd
• 13:37
  Speaker 4: like more information about making your family happier, check out
• 13:39
  Speaker 4: happy families dot com dot au