Latest / FOLLOW / Can you get better at having a hard time? /// FOLLOW with Doug Miller

Transcript

Can you get better at having a hard time? /// FOLLOW with Doug Miller · FOLLOW

• 0:03
  SPEAKER_02: All the things that go through one's mind when you get the diagnosis that you have cancer is like, Am I gonna die?
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_02: I don't want to die.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I I'm married to this gal I love and I want to spend my life with her and finally have this little boy.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_02: And to feel like, oh my gosh, you can't speak negativity over your situation.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_02: You know, don't don't tell God you're mad at him or whatever.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, he created us with all these feelings, and actually he already knows what's going on anyway.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_02: So why don't I just get it out?
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_02: We think blessing means no hardship.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think that's what it means at all.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_02: It means that God's gonna be with you in the middle of your hardship and you're gonna be more prepared to sit in the sweet spot of his presence even when it stinks.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_02: And that's a whole different kind of theology and a whole different kind of walk with Jesus.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the Follow Podcast, a podcast that believes at its core, the single most important oriented belief that if Jesus is right about God and life and the human soul, then it would make sense that we rearrange our lives around what he says is true.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: So that's what we're exploring.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: All that Jesus said was true, and how to rearrange our lives around it.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: What if following Jesus isn't mostly about knowing more, but actually rearranging your life around what he said is true?
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: Because that's the belief behind everything we do at follow.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: If Jesus is right about God, life, and the soul, then his way is worth actually living.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: Now, here's the thing following Jesus, it is a journey.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: It can be slow, it is intentional, and sometimes it is a little bit disorienting, but you don't have to have it all figured out.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: You just need a next step.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: So, start with the follow guide.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: It is a 30-day guided journey with one reading and one practice each day designed to help you take what Jesus taught and begin putting it into practice.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: Go through it on your own, with a friend, or with a group, and that's just the beginning.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: The follow library includes guides to the words of Jesus and prayer, and with more to come on practices like scripture, rest, and so much more, all created to help you keep rearranging your everyday life around what Jesus said is true.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: But you don't have to change everything today.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: You just need to take your next step along his way.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_01: So visit follow thewayofjesus.com.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: Start that journey today.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_01: Doug.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, sir.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_01: How you doing, man?
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: I'm good, buddy.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for being on our podcast.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: Of course.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_01: Your podcast, our podcast.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_01: That's amazing.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_01: How you been?
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: I'm good.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: Where you been?
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_01: You uh speaking of adventures, you just got back from something pretty pretty amazing.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_02: I did.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_02: I got invited to a pastor's soul care event in Sitka, Alaska.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_02: Oh wow.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_02: It was epic.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_02: Alaska calls you back, I promise.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_02: It was good, huh?
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_02: It was amazing.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_02: Pretty cool time.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_02: Good for you.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_02: Good for your soul.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_02: The fridge or the freezer has some fish in it.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_02: So that's I bet.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_02: I love that.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_01: That's good.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: Well, glad you're here.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: For uh the listeners, we haven't had it's been a while since Doug, you've been on the on the podcast.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: Glad you're glad you're back on.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: Talking about how we crack on.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_01: Crack on is a British saying.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, not cracking on to.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: We have found out that if you say cracking on to, it's flirting with someone.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: That's what the Brits say for, and we know our Australian audience is strong, and they've let us know.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: Cracking on is what you say when you are talking about like carrying on and getting through like really hard things.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_01: Like this is what we do.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_01: We we we crack on.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_01: And so um really excited about having a conversation about uh cracking on and how we carry on.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: And this is what uh here's where I'd love to start.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_01: One, everybody knows you, but talk a little bit about there.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_01: I there may be some pieces of your story that not everybody knows, and I'm wondering if you wouldn't mind, you know, telling a little bit of your story going way back, uh, and you know, a little bit of what you learned along the way.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: So how far back do you want to start?
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we know you're a pastor, we know you're we we know you started this church, and that was in and of itself a pretty speaking of cracking on, if you're gonna be a church planner, you better have that one figured out.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um but I want to go back uh to a health scare that you had.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_01: How old were you when you you got you were diagnosed with cancer?
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: How old were you?
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_02: Twenty-seven.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: Twenty-seven when you got diagnosed.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_01: Would you tell would you talk a little bit about what happened?
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_02: Well, um I think to to really have the story full, you have to know that when a few years before, when my younger brother Andy was 16, he was diagnosed with cancer, the same cancer that I was diagnosed with.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_02: So um, right before I jumped into full-time ministry, Andy uh found out that he had testicular cancer as well, and he was still in high school.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_02: And so, you know, I any part of the story I tell about not having tools in the bag to deal with that kind of uh challenge, I just always am like, well, at least I wasn't 16.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_02: So um so walked through that with my brother, and then uh I was a youth pastor when I uh found out um I was actually on a trip with a bunch of kids.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_01: Oh gosh.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_02: And I was out east, far Atlantic City, and something was wrong.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_02: And by the time we got to Lexington, Kentucky, I was like, I gotta go to the hospital.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_02: I am not feeling well.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_02: And they just did all their tests and encouraged me to go see a doctor as soon as I got home, which I did, and um unfortunately was misdiagnosed for three months and uh thereafter found out that that uh that I too had cancer.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_01: Go back in time.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_01: What was your first response?
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_01: Like as soon as you found out the diagnosis, do you remember what you were feeling?
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_01: I think initially I I thought I had it.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_02: And and um we were just in a town where medical care was a lot different than what I had grew up and had seen my brother walk through because we were in Chicago at the time when Andy got it, and there was much better medical care.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_02: So I was uh not in a place where um you know we were familiar with the doctors and all the things, and so um yeah, I I was mostly disappointed that they didn't do what I felt would have been a more simple, you know, way to diagnose what was going on.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_02: We could have figured it out earlier, but they just didn't think that I that there's no way two brothers have this and blah, blah, blah, all the things.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_02: And so once we found out, uh yeah, I was more angry about the misdiagnosis for three months because it's also an aggressive cancer, and that could have been a problem.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so I just we packed up and went home to Chicago as quick as possible and checked in with the same doctors that had treated my brother at Northwestern Memorial downtown and and and started the journey, man.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: What was that journey like?
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_02: It was uh really hard.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um we had just I mean, I always wanted to be a dad, and obviously this brings all kinds of things into play.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_02: Josh, our oldest, was one month old and when I was diagnosed, and so we had one at that point, but that's not what that you wanted more.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, the thing all the things that go through one's mind when you get the diagnosis that you have cancer is like, Am I gonna die?
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_02: I don't want to die.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I I'm married to this gal I love and I want to spend my life with her, and finally I have this little boy, and man, I just wanted to be a dad so so badly, and I I had my son, and so you start thinking about all of the implications, potential implications, worst-case scenarios of you know, who's gonna take care of my wife and who's gonna raise my kid, and and then of course, this particular cancer brings with it all kinds of other possibilities that would have been, you know, very devastating uh for any dude.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_02: And uh you saw all that stuff starts going through your mind too, and it was just an overwhelming time for sure.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_02: Very overwhelming.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_02: And uh, you know, then I got to leave, and so I was worried about my job, and we were in the middle of a pastoral lead pastor transition at the church I was at, and so this new pastor's coming in to lead, and I wasn't there, and and I was you know worried about how we're gonna take care of my family, and yeah, it just it was a it was a pretty big, big mess for a while.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_01: Do you what what was the darkest moment?
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_02: Well, um my my parents lived in one of the suburbs, so there I remember a day when I had to take the train downtown to go to the doctor, and I was heading in to go get uh one of the surgeries that I had to have, and and I had to get there early.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_02: So I took the early train downtown and and I was by myself on the train, and you're like um facing massively difficult scenarios that that I didn't have clarity on how it was gonna finish out and what was gonna happen.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and and uh I'm on a train, you know.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_02: If you live in that area, you know, you just kind of put your head down and and you know, you just mind your business.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_02: That's the way it is.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm sitting on a train like I wish somebody would care about my business today.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_01: When you look back on that journey, what what is how how do you keep your faith when you're 27 and it feels like a lot of dreams are getting evaporated?
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_01: It feels like uncertainty, because at 27, yeah, you're not 16, but you're 27.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: How and you were a youth pastor, you were consistently talking about a good God.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: How did you do it?
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_01: How did you manage that season?
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_02: That's interesting because I I kind of at the time remember processing it a little bit differently because in my mind as a young man, I'm like, well, God, if you are sovereign and you uh know what's going on, I feel like you already have my attention.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_02: I've already chosen to serve you with my life.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_02: What is this all about?
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I could pick a lot of people that need their attention to be on you that should get this, not me.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_02: And so it was more of that kind of thought for me personally than than um like questioning God's existence or anything like that.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_02: I I just more was like, what the heck, man?
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I don't get what you're trying to do.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_02: And at the time, of course, had no, I didn't have the tools in the bag to process it all, but I'm like, it I don't know how much more of my attention do you actually need?
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I don't want to die.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_02: Like, why are we doing this?
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like the wrong person to get this because I'm already serving you.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_02: Why is this happening?
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_02: And so that was more the process that I went through as a as a young dude trying to sort out the realities of what what we were facing.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so it I I wouldn't call it a a crisis of faith.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_02: It was more just deep confusion of why why would this happen, which I think is really common for anybody that goes through a tough time like that in a physical way.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um yeah, worried about my wife and my kid.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: What um w when you look back at that season, you know, you you're now quite a long ways away, and you do have more children.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, thank God.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_01: Three more.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: Uh-huh.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: So four.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_01: And not only do you have children, do you have a grandbaby?
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_01: I sure do.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's the best.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_01: He's pretty awesome.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: He loves you.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um you've been in ministry this whole time.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_01: You've seen a lot of people now walk through what you've walked through.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_02: What do you tell them?
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I can remember back to one instance where, well, pretty quickly I became the anytime someone would need prayer for cancer, they're like, hey, go talk to Doug guy.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_02: You know, so I was like the professional cancer prayer for, you know, like, oh, he'll get it.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_02: Go talk to him.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_02: And and uh I remember one particular instance where we had gotten a call uh at church and a gal had fought cancer before and then uh tragically found out that her cancer had come back, and she was super angry and uh you can understand, super frustrated, asking lots of questions.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_02: And apparently the chaplain from the hospital had tried to stop by to just check in with her, maybe something requested by her family or something, and and she literally yelled and screamed and kicked the guy out of her room.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_02: So she was in a bad spot.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_02: So they're like, Hey, would you go?
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, Well, I don't want to go, you know, but I will go.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_02: And so I remember going to the hospital, standing in the threshold of the door to her room, and she looked at me.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_02: I could tell she was not happy that I was there.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_02: And I said, Listen, everyone's experience is different.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I want you to know I've been through this.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_02: And I got a big scar in my stomach from where they took out 29 nymph lymph nodes out of my body, and so I just lifted up my shirt and showed her the scar and I said, We share some things in common.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_02: Can I come in?
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_02: And she just waved and said, Sure, you can come in.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think for me, first of all, it's uh a deeper understanding of uh just uh the emotion and some of the feelings.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_02: Everybody's different, but you know, having some commonality and difficult experience has provided an opportunity for me to care for people going through something similar.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_02: And um, you know, I don't look back and wish it wouldn't have happened, of course, but I'm grateful that God could use it to to um give me a deeper level of compassion for people that are hurting.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_01: Do you see that theme that you you know you're 27 and I think that idea of meaning is a is really in it's it's pretty common, yeah.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: Like you see it in a lot of people where they're like, I'm trying to figure out what this is supposed to mean.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like I'm supposed to like you you have my attention, I am already here.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: Why would this happen to me?
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: That that is a pretty com we hear that a lot.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah, right?
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like, tell me why.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: How did you wrestle through that at 27?
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_01: What did you do with that question?
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_01: How do you I mean what do you do with it?
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_02: I think I wrestled not well.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I still, you know, I mean, obviously you can see little glimpses of how that forms you and you have a different perspective of life, you have a different perspective of people that are hurting.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um but I mean, I I don't know that we ever get the answer to the why, right?
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_02: Like that's part of the the things that perplex us most about life when we try we try to make sense of everything.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_02: And not everything makes sense.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um, there are some things that we go through that that are extremely difficult, cause a lot of pain and a lot of questions and um doubt and all kinds of things, and we don't always sort through those with definitive answers.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_02: Life is tough and bad things happen, and sometimes bad things happen to really amazing people.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_02: And we what we work with them every day.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_02: We we talk with people every day, and and I think that God can be in the middle of of our challenges for sure.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um but I think as we're trying to sort through whether or not there's a way to make sense of this, you know, it it it's just a hard reality of life.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_02: You know, this is a broken world, sickness is part of it.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_02: None of us are gonna make it out of here, should the Lord tarry, without dying at some point, and we don't know when that's coming, we don't know how that will happen.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and sometimes life, whether it be physical things or relational things or any number of ways, life can just be really, really, really hard.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_02: And um one of the things that that I learned through all of it is that um as as I'm walking through these difficult situations, like having a faith base to stand on, even when it doesn't make sense, um it did help.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I I feel like it did help.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_02: I had um good people around me.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_02: I had people that cared, I had an amazing wife, and yet you still walk through the challenge and we'll continue to ask those questions and and someday we'll have answers, I think, differently than we even think about today when we have an opportunity to just ask the Lord, what what the heck was that one all about?
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_02: Like I just don't get it.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean But it definitely changes you.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: C.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: S.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: Lewis says, I think this is C.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_01: S.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_01: Lewis Carter, you would know, but I think he said the first thing that we'll say when we get into Jesus' presence is of course, of course.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like he just is like, okay, I see I see, I see now.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: I couldn't see it.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: Now I see.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_01: I mean in this life, you may not be able to connect all the dots, right?
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um but that being said, you know, you are you're a few exits further down the road.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_01: Is there anything you look back and think, man, if uh this version you could talk to 27-year-old you going through that, what would you say to him?
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I think first of all, from a very simple way, I mean, I just think we I mean we've been through way more than that, way more difficult things over the years than just that one.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but uh it's it in the middle of the crisis is the wrong time to tr it's a more challenging time, I guess I could say.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_02: It could still be a right time, but it's a difficult time to try and sort through some of those things of faith.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_02: Uh it's better to have a foundation of relationship with the Lord before you hit there.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_02: I would also say the same is true about your relationship with your spouse.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_02: Like uh how many times have we heard the stories of uh individuals that have gone through extremely difficult times?
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_02: Their marriages are already in a tough spot, and that's the catalyst to the breaking up of a of a of a relationship because there wasn't intentionality beforehand.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um so I don't I don't think we go through life preparing for, embracing for the challenge and the problem, but I think we do need to just insightfully understand that some of these fundamental things are critical to walking through tough times in our lives.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_02: And sometimes the tough time wakes you up enough too, like and it will take you to a different place than you were before.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_02: You become a different person because of those challenging moments of life.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I know that that definitely is true for me too.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you when you've been through something like that, anyone that's been through a health scare of some sort where you got to fight a battle to get out of it, I think um you're reminded with some margin of regularity the that life is precious.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_02: Today matters.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um, don't take it for granted.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_02: And I've got a reminder every day.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I don't think about this every day anymore, but you know, when I'm getting ready in the morning, I still see the scar on my my stomach, and and it's a reminder of of days gone by that were super challenging, and don't uh take this for granted.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: Because I feel like for many many people, if they're facing something um any and they have faith, um but almost the the sense like um my faith is dependent on my circumstances that everything's gonna be up into the right and then something hard hits and I I can't seem to um not linger in the in the negative or the the the fear or the worry or the you know and and again it's totally human but how what's it what is it like that faith mindset that you have um and as you faced other things in life that you know and things were scary um teach us how to think.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's one of my my favorite pieces about the way that you preach and teach and lead is I feel like I I walk away going, Oh, that's a that's a helpful framework for how to you know, in Eric's British language to to crack on well.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: And so um yeah, is it was is there like a framework that you think about um that you oh man, I'm slipping into despair.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: That's not what I want to be.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: I want to be dot da.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: Or yeah, did you have some kind of mental model that helped you push forward?
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: That's a really good question.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_02: I I think when we go through these challenging times of life, it I think it's so important for us to be true to the thought.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's it's okay to have a negative thought.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_02: It's okay to be worried.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_02: It's okay to be angry.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_02: It's okay to feel um hopeless.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_02: It's okay.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_02: And I I think so often in the church world, we've created these environments where it's not okay to to say the reality that is your reality in a moment that's tough.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I think we're also as humans, especially as Christian humans, we're not so good at letting people be there for a minute.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_02: And and I think um that you know that I don't try and talk people out of how they feel.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_02: Like I think we can reframe it.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_02: I think we can help them experience and and know the reality of a God that loves them and cares about them and and he has not abandoned me because I'm going through a tough time.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but to know that he's there and and I'm I mean, and honestly, the the toughest times of life are the ones where I have seen, and this is true for so many, you know, more growth, more understanding, more connection um of of of God's involvement in my life and in a deeper sense of appreciation for the things that we tell people they need to have in their lives often, you know, the beauty of true, authentic, caring community that just shows up.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_02: It's beautiful.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think trying to fight those feelings, I think, you know, I don't know if the fight I think the best way to fight it is to call it what it is and to say, you know, I don't like this and I don't get this and I'm frustrated.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_02: And you need to have people you can have that conversation with that that are just like, it's okay for you to feel that way.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_02: And God created us with all these feelings anyway, and I know we're all flawed individuals for sure, but he knows that too.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_02: And so to feel like, oh my gosh, you can't speak negativity over your situation, you know, don't don't tell God you're mad at him or whatever.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, he created us with all these feelings, and actually he already knows what's going on anyway.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_02: So why don't I just get it out and say it?
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_02: And so whether it's through a journal or a prayer or just yelling or whatever, I think it's important to be true to those feelings.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm not sure that that by itself makes makes the things go away, but there's something therapeutic about being in an environment where you can be true to the and authentic in in the pain and just have some people love you in that spot and um and uh and uh walk with you through the pain and and just be present.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's such a huge part of it.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_02: And so having those kind of people in my life was helpful, and not everybody knows how to do that well.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, what I promised you I didn't need was another verse on healing.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_02: I know all the verses on healing, you know, like and I know people are trying to be helpful, but sometimes I just really just need you to be my friend.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_02: Will you just come and not have an answer today and just sit with me in in the confusion of this and the battle that it is and the pain that it is, and um and uh we'll get on the other side of it, uh, you know, Lord willing, and thank God I did.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um but um yeah.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_02: And then I think at a certain point there was this tenacity that just said, okay, they feel like they got it.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_02: Now I'm just gonna power through what I gotta power through.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_02: And I can remember one moment where I I had forgotten a jacket in the closet in my hospital room uh post-recovery from the big surgery that I had.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_02: And um, you know, anytime you have your, you know, your abs cut through like that.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you need your abs for everything, you know.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_02: So I mean they literally opened me up, took all my internal organs out.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have abs.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: I have ab.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: I have an ab.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_02: Back then I had abs.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_02: I don't they're just definitely deep down there now, it's just a singular ab.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_02: But like, I mean, you need your abs for everything, right?
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_02: So it was like you walk all hunched over, and I was trying so hard to walk, standing up.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_02: And I I went back to the floor to grab the stuff that I had forgotten, and the nurse said, Hey, how's your brother doing?
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, My brother is doing great.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_02: And I was just like trying to power through the even the little walk that I had just taken, but grateful that I was pushing myself, you know.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_02: Like, so I think Steve, there's a little bit of that in me too.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm gonna try, I'll do what I need to do to push through and get better.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_02: But man, it was it was definitely rough.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I I you you said something that for me I think is pretty insightful, and it is the power of community in your struggle.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_01: And that's um you you you have two issues, right?
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_01: One is lots of people don't know how to crack on with you or struggle well with you, but you also there is a a level of vulnerability, like you someone has to be willing when you're going through something to invite people into the pain.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: Could you speak a little bit about the power of community relationships uh when it comes to like struggling well, like getting through?
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_02: I think not trying to hide, you know, we can isolate when things get tough sometimes because we're like we feel guilty about the way we think, or those thoughts that we were even just talking about that like are invasive and feel ungodly or right, you know, sacrilegious in some way.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_02: For me to be angry at God, is he gonna strike me dead right here or whatever?
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think inviting people, yeah, you have to know who who you can trust.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's not everybody.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_02: And and some people are actually really bad at walking with people through tough times.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but but um knowing that there are those people, and some of for me personally, that was definitely some of my closest friends, but my brothers, you know, my wife for sure.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_02: I don't I don't you know, I don't remember Beth having bad days until it was over.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_02: And um and so there was strength in Beth, which was she had to be a gamer.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, we had a one-month-old kid, her husband has cancer, you know, she's running back and forth between my hospital room and you know, feeding Josh and all the things, and I mean it was brutal, man.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_02: Like it was tough, but my wife is rock solid, and and uh see you know, if she was falling apart at the same time, it probably would have been even more difficult.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_02: So, um uh, but but yeah, so I think just knowing who you can trust, you let those people in to the journey, and th those are the people that show up and don't try and have the answers, but they'll just sit with you in the in the in the in the hardship is is a big deal.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_02: And we we I I think the key there is that we need to be that kind of person for other people, and then there will be opportunity for that to be reciprocated when you're going through a tough time too.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_02: And being a person that's gone through difficulties should really tee you up because you know what it's like so well to be there for other people too.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_01: One belief drives everything around here.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: If Jesus was right about God, life, and the soul, then it makes sense to rearrange our lives around what he said is true.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: Ready for the next step?
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_01: Well, follow is a 30-day guided study, one reading a day, one practice a day, on your own or with other people.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_01: And by day 30, you'll not just be learning about Jesus, you'll be living differently, going deeper from there with 30-day guides on prayer and so much more to come.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_01: So, if you're interested in taking a next step, visit follow theway.church and start your guide this week.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_00: Before age 27, you always kind of have like a um like an empath side to you, or or did this kind of give you a a level of musculature that that like took your pastoral game to another level, like bec you know, because I think how you face difficult situations, you're like and I think so many people skip leg day, like they just don't develop through the grief or through the heart or through the confusion.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think again, one of the things that you do so well is your your presence to pastor.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like, was that has it always been there?
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_00: Was that was this kind of situation just oh man, like it it made me a wildly more empath to what other people are going through.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_02: That's a really good question.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_02: I think I always had uh you know, I'm a feeler, so I I I'm pretty empathetic to to people in particular when they're going through hard times, but I mean I can I feel like I can assess and feel and know and and just have some emotional intelligence to what's happening around me.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that was always fairly intuitive.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_02: Of course, that's a skill you develop over the years for sure.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_02: So I think I had a little margin of that, but this definitely going through these kinds of things, I think for sure help create in me a deeper desire to show up and to be there and to help people walking through, you know, those kinds of uh whatever version of challenge they're going through too.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_02: So I think you definitely get better at it.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you know, I know what I'm not gonna say because people said it to me, you know, like and you're like, I just don't need that right now.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_02: That's not what I need.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_02: And and uh and so I I there's no doubt it helped form some of that in me, no doubt.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_02: And I I when I look back, I'm like, well, as hard as it is to find good out of getting cancer at 27, uh there is good there.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_02: Like that does help form me in that way where there's a deeper level of empathy.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_02: And I I think to see, you know, God says he's gonna make all things good.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_02: Well, that's part of the way that happens.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_02: I can walk into a hospital room where someone's really hurting and say, Hey, I've been there.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_02: I get it, you know, like and I think that gives me some chaps when I walk into those situations a little differently too.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_02: And and when people hear our story and know the things that we've been through, I think it does correct a lot of bad theology too.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_02: I've thought about that before.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_02: Where like you say more.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_02: Gosh, if if Doug walks through hard times, then oh dear lord, that means I could too.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_02: Like, yes, absolutely.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_02: Which goes back to what you were saying before, uh, Steve.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_02: The the whole up and to the right thing is this misnomer of theology that's so often pervasive in the local church, where you know, if I just do what's right and and and then I can somehow pull a string to make sure that God's gonna make sure my life is up and to the right and no challenge and no hardship, and and uh I will be the first to tell you that is absolutely not true.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um, we're going to, as scriptures say, endure hard things.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_02: It's going to be part of life.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_02: And so the way we walk through those hard times really matters.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that becomes an example to the world around us in many ways, too.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_02: You know, they see faith in the middle of a trial.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_02: That's a different kind of faith, man.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um and and so I uh I feel like it has definitely for me, for sure.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_00: When Paul writes like Romans 5, you know, it's the great line, like I I boast in my sufferings, because sufferings produce endurance, endurance, character, and character hope, and hope will not be put to shame.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's such a weird kind of line.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_00: Like I boast in my sufferings, like a boast in the and the hard.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um you know, and I think gosh, like I think in one sense the church uh doesn't give great answers, you know, oftentimes when people are walking through difficult times.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_00: I mean the church like Christians.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um I then too, I think sometimes you kind of you can't really feel the doubt, um, you know, or or you don't feel permission to to show up fully and in the worry.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_00: And then I think on the other side too, is like man, I've never met anyone who was like I got cancer, yeah.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_00: Check it out.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like I got like I I and and so what does like when you when you hear Paul say I boasted of my suffering like in the most non-trite like the only way Doug Miller can do it, like make it plain, but like make it practical, and just what does it what does it mean to boast um in the suffering or to like crack on well um when it makes no sense?
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_00: Well uh quote the verse one more time.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um Romans uh Romans five, it says, I'll boast in my sufferings because suffering produces endurance, endurance characters.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_02: I w I boast in my suffering because and then watch what happens as a result.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_02: And so he he's he's starting to experience what this my therapist calls it the crucible.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_02: So what is it what is the crucible forming in me?
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_02: And Paul says, say it again one more time.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_00: Uh boast in suffering because it suffering produces endurance, endurance character, and character hope, and hope will not be put to shame.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_02: If we can have those things that come out of our challenge, I mean I think we can boast about that because I can't make that up myself.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_02: I I that's not something I'm gonna be able to just conjure up in my own human little self.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but if the difficulties and challenges of life can produce these kinds of things and I still have hope on the backside of it, like you know what, I don't always get it, but my hope is still in my God.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_02: Like I think that's what I would rather boast in than than anything else.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_02: And and I really there's times where I wonder, how do you learn this stuff if you don't go through a hard time?
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_02: Like and uh and I mean I don't think any of us are like, okay, throw me another hard time, you know.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_01: No, of course not.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_02: That would be awesome.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_01: But but what I mean I think that's the but that's the fundamental question, right?
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_01: Because one, everybody's gonna go through hard times.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_01: That it's unavoidable.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_01: Now, not everybody's gonna get cancer, but one in four people are um and uh one out of one uh are gonna die.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's the reality of this whole thing, right?
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_01: Jesus is pretty clear, and yet we're almost shocked by it all.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like, um and completely resistant to well like we I don't know, it's like we're in a boardroom and we've drawn a trend line on a graph, and we say, well, it's up and to the right, and if I follow Jesus, everything's gonna go to the right, right?
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_01: So if it doesn't go to the right, then it can't be right.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_01: And so uh, you know, one to answer your question, everybody's gonna go through the hard times.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_01: The problem is that hard times do produce some things in us.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I I know of the crucible and I know of the person you speak of.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_01: We may have had him on the podcast.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um speaking of uh your you know, a crucible, but but I do think there's things we can do before the inevitability of the hard times come that begin to shape us into the kind of people that crack on, that struggle well.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_01: And that's really what I've been thinking a lot about is like, how do we use these times?
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_01: Because not everybody's going through cancer, and not every day is it's not a promise that every day is a hard day.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_01: But what do we do from a spiritual formation perspective that uses these times to train us to be the kind of people that walk into hard times, and we don't see the hard times as some lack of evidence that there's a God or somehow I've messed up?
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we allow the crucible to do its transformative work, but that does require like some pre-work, right?
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_01: Some pre-homework, right?
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_01: Something like that.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_01: How how you know that's what I've been thinking a lot about is like how do you how do you and in some ways the disciplines, spiritual disciplines, is forcing ourselves into uncomfortable things that we wouldn't otherwise have to do, like fasting, skipping a meal, to being hungry on purpose, which our body says don't do that, right?
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think our our bodies tell us be comfortable all the time in the moment you're not.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_01: So so I I have thought a lot about okay.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_01: This is what this is what disciplines are for to begin to shape us for the cauldron for what is to come.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_02: I think we should write a sermon series on this.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_02: This would be really great.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I have three preachers right with three preachers in the room, and it's like, hey man, um pre pre preach a three-minute message and struggle well.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I mean, I what if we what if we did a message on, hey, there's gonna come a time in your life where it really stinks, and there's no way to fully be prepared for that.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_02: But here's some things that are true from the word of God that help us understand, first of all, that that is not unnormal.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, there will be normal is hard.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_01: Normal is normal.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_02: There will be hard times.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_02: And so instead of getting, you know, it's like you think about someone, whatever, think about whatever sport it is, you know, like I don't know, I love I like watching the MMA.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_02: You're gonna get punched so in the face, so whether you have a punchable face or not.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_02: So let's let's get ready to try and deal with those super difficult things that are coming your way, right?
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_02: Like train for it, get ready for it.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_02: Be so that'd be a fun series to do, but I think that's part of why we encourage people so much to towards these disciplines.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_02: Again, it's not for the discipline's sake, it's for that you know Jesus.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_02: And so when it gets tough, you're still gonna know Jesus in the middle of your tough.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_02: And instead of because we don't, and I say we, the bigger church, we doesn't do a good job helping people to know that life is gonna be difficult when it comes all of a sudden we're slapped in the face with a theology that doesn't work anymore.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_02: Like because I thought it's supposed to be up into the right.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_02: Nobody told me.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, they just said, just you're gonna be blessed if you do this stuff right.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_02: And we think blessing means no hardship.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think that's what it means at all.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_02: It means that God's gonna be with you in the middle of your hardship and you're gonna be more prepared to sit in the sweet spot of his presence even when it stinks.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_02: And that's a whole different kind of theology and a whole different kind of walk with Jesus.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_00: Watch this.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_00: Uh Jack Canfield, he uh becomes this like leadership guru and finds himself in Columbus, Ohio, and he and Urban Meyer become friends.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_00: So this is this is a lesson in know your audience.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_00: And Urban finds himself like absolutely blown away by this mathematical formula that Camfield begins to teach, and it becomes like you probably saw players like during the Meyer regime with like these bracelets on that said E plus R equals O.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_00: And the the language that that Meyer and this leadership guru Canfield would say is events plus response equals outcome.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_00: And the whole the whole kind of lesson was, hey, you don't control the events.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but your response to what happens will determine the outcome.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_00: And so how do you choose and learn so that you can respond well to whatever life and situations throw at you?
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_00: So, like when that one wide receiver pushes you, are you gonna respond with pushing them back and get a flag and hurt your your team with a 15-yard penalty?
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_00: Or are you just gonna no, I've I I'm gonna respond for the sake of my team.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna respond for the sake of the mission.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna respond for the sake of the purpose.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I think like what you're getting at, you know, so much is man, we put so much in man, I think God is for me because of how the events are going, or God's against me based on how the events are going.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_00: And not enough time in no matter how the events go.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how am I shaping myself so I'm ready and prepared to respond to whatever life, whatever the enemy, whatever good God provides my way to create an outcome, like you said earlier, that actually shows the world we can do hard things.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_00: Shows the world like the strength of the foundation of Christ.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so it's the first time ever I've quoted Ohio State.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_02: You don't have no idea how much that meant to me.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it is a lesson in knowing your audience.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_01: But here, hey, this is key though.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_01: Seriously.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_01: But that we say that, but here's the truth we think about a response, and we think a response is just this natural reaction just comes out of me.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_01: You can train a response, you can train it.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_01: And and I remember learning this.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_01: I was at a uh I was stretching, okay, and um uh With my one ab and my lack of leg days, uh, my stretching, it just it's atrocious.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm in this stretch.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's called a pigeon pose.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, it's called a pigeon stretch.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_01: You know that stretch?
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, look it up.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's a it's a painful stretch.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_01: So I I get into this stretch, right?
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_01: And um the uh instructor is like, hey, I need you to get in this stretch.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_01: Here's what it looks like.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_01: So I start doing it, you know, I'm trying to limber up.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_01: And um, my body starts screaming like at me, like, hey, you you need to stop doing this, like right now.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_01: And it burned, like in the in my hip flexors, it was burning.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I literally was about to get up when the instructor goes, Hold on, um, your body right now is telling you that uh it wants you to stop doing this.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna tell you that what you're doing right now isn't going to harm you.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_01: It's uncomfortable, but it's not gonna harm you.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_01: And so I need you to learn to get comfortable with being uncomfortable.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember that so often that much of our struggle is um, it really is this response of being uncomfortable, or being comfortable, you know, with uh discomfort, that response of comfort.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm gonna struggle well.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_01: It's interesting because I just started this list recently.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_01: I pulled it up and I'm gonna read a few of them.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_01: But I've been asking myself the question, okay, when it comes to struggling well, we're cracking on, uh, you know, they're synonymous.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_01: How do I how do I define struggling well?
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_01: How do I let myself know what that looks like?
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_01: How do I get comfortable in this discomfort?
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_01: Instead of just like, I think our natural reaction is with that equation, something happens.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_01: Our response is normally fly, get us, get out of here.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_01: Let's go get this over with.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_01: And the reality is that um oftentimes uh our first response, untrained, is not the right response.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_01: A trained response, one where we've engaged in the practice of like, nah, look, my pigeon still looks pretty bad.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_01: But I can sit in that thing for longer and longer, the more and more I practice and tell myself, this discomfort is actually doing something for me.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_01: My response to this does not have to be to exit, to get out, to ignore it, to numb out whatever it is that we do with struggle.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so I was, I'm, I'll just read you some of these because I've literally, this is a list I've been making because I've been really trying to tell myself, all right, how do I train to struggle well?
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_01: What does it mean?
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, okay, struggling well is answering the text.
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_01: Struggling well is going to work.
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_01: Struggling well is letting somebody see me before I get all cleaned up.
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_01: Struggling well is telling one person the truth.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_01: Struggling well is having no answer and being okay with that.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, struggling well is dropping the phrase, I'm okay.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_01: That's one of the things I've just been trying to work out of my.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I literally I've just been working through the list of going, but this for me is the practice.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_01: Naming it now.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, what does it look like to practice cracking on, to practice struggling well?
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's it's we can do it in these moments when we're not struggling, so that when the struggle comes, the response more naturally flows out of us that leads to places of health and growth.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_00: So Mark Patterson uh has his like way of you know, in a few punchy words saying it, but kind of similar to what you just navigated through, Eric.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_00: But he just said every day you should choose to make a decision against yourself.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and so like learning to struggle well to train your brain to struggle well.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, yeah, I I want that extra taco.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_00: Now make a decision against myself.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I want to buy that.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna make a decision against myself.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_00: Just because I can do doesn't mean I should do or need to do.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but like you start to look at all of those pieces, like, yeah, fasting, you're making a decision against yourself, like and our natural formation experience grounded in uh um the self is gonna the path of least resistance.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_00: What's gonna be the easiest, um fastest, like mo you know, but when you step and go, No, I'm gonna actually train myself and I'm gonna go without and I'm gonna trust God in this.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_00: And you have it's like this 401k that you're investing into that.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_00: You'll never know when you're gonna have to rely on it, but you do know life is hard and life's gonna throw something at you.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_00: You'll actually have kind of those um chips of trust to go, no, I okay, I'm gonna go without for a season, but I I know I'm not gonna go without your presence, God.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_00: Like I just I but it's so much easier to say than to actually put it into practice because um but it feels like um oftentimes we're so ill prepared when life does what it does.
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_01: That's so true.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think um that's why we're doing this whole series on Kraken On.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like the reality is formation is, you know, d Dallas talks about formation as not behavior modification, but that formation creates in us um the kind of person that these things naturally flow out of us.
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_01: They flow out of us, like they're just there, but it does not come accidentally.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and crucibles change us, but the truth is I'm becoming more and more convinced that my training in life, my ability to what was the phrase they used, Carter?
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_01: What did Batterson say?
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_01: Make a decision against against myself.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's a lot of it, isn't it?
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_02: Just I think as we get reps with some things early in life that maybe not aren't that massive, like not cancer or whatever, being thoughtful and walking through those, you know.
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_02: I think of you know, David quickly goes running into the field to fight Goliath.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_02: Why?
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_02: Because he had fought battles before and they weren't Goliath, but they were still battles.
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_02: And so instead of looking for an excuse to bail from God and like, there it is, you know, this thing, this is all well, like how do I go through some hard things and recognize them as hard things and not necessarily be the one that runs from it, but kind of leans into it a little bit and just says, God, where are you at in all of this?
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_02: And spend some time processing that.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_02: And and so God's with me in that one, he's gonna be with me in the next one.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_02: And because God had been faithful, I can trust him to be faithful in other things.
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_02: And that does faithful doesn't always mean I get better either, right?
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_02: Like you might still walk with a limp when it's done, you know, or whatever, but God was with me and he's gonna be with me past the end, and and that gives us hope in a different kind of way.
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, take this because both of you are are empty nesters now.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_00: Sort of take this in the the parenting piece, because I think that there's this whole movement from you know the hovering parent, they would say, you know, the helicopter parent, to now they're describing it as the snowplow parent.
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_00: Clear the way parent.
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_00: And and because I don't want difficulty for my kid.
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want, I want it to make it so my job is to like pave that way.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so how do how do you teach that as a to a as a parent to have your kids in the right way experience hardship where they can fail forward or um kind of grow some of that muscle so that when they get into their teenage years or when they get into their 20s, they get in their 30s, they're they're learning how to do that.
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_00: Any any insight for, you know, uh the young, the young parents out there right now?
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you know, there's a phrase for this for the generation we grew up in, all three of us.
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_01: They they talk about uh the the phrase is called willful neglect.
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_01: That what we had as children is what they phrased willful neglect, that our parents allowed us to do a bunch of things on our own.
• 53:19
  SPEAKER_01: So they didn't intervene in a fight.
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_01: I remember my dad, this is a true story.
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_01: I've told this story.
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_01: I came back to his office, I was probably in the I was in the sixth grade, and I told him that I'd stood up to a bully at school who was messing with a girl, and uh the boy challenged me to the fight.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_01: He f a fight.
• 53:41
  SPEAKER_01: He was a huge kid, right?
• 53:43
  SPEAKER_01: He was the kid in sixth grade that looked like he was a you know shaving.
• 53:47
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, easily shaving.
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_01: And in that moment, my dad turned around at his office desk.
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_01: He goes, Way to go, son.
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_01: What time's the fight?
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_01: I said, 3:30.
• 53:57
  SPEAKER_01: He said, Well, you better be on your way.
• 54:00
  SPEAKER_01: And so, like, I'm not suggesting that you let your kids punch each other in the face, but what I'm saying is there's something to allowing a child to navigate these really hard decisions.
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_01: My dad had no intention of calling the principal, had no intention of you know, calling even their parents.
• 54:24
  SPEAKER_01: And um, again, I'm not that's an extreme version of willful neglect, but if you take it down to just playing, allowing for uh free play, the ability to solve problems with other kids, when we would get into a thing, my parents would turn around and go, well, then go back to Billy's house and you guys need to work it out, right?
• 54:45
  SPEAKER_01: And so I do think as a parent, watching my kids now in their uh late teens and twenties, I think the greatest gift that Chrissy and I have tried to give our kids is we had decided early on we just will not and cannot solve every problem for them.
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_01: It we can't.
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember when Gray was in fifth grade and he was playing football, and um and the coach was tough.
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, it wasn't good.
• 55:21
  SPEAKER_01: The coach was he really thought we were we're headed to the Super Bowl.
• 55:27
  SPEAKER_01: And it gave Gray a ton of anxiety, and and at fifth grade it was too much, but he came to me and said, Dad, I don't want to play on this team anymore.
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, Okay.
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_01: Then you have to go talk to your coach and you have to explain to him why it is that you aren't gonna play on this team anymore.
• 55:47
  SPEAKER_01: I said, I'll drive you over there, but you have the conversation.
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_01: And so watching Gray, this little fifth grader, go to this gigantic man of a coach and tell him, Coach, um, I just think you you you the way in which you coach is just you yell too much and you say bad words, and I just can't do that anymore.
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm switching teams.
• 56:07
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think that's he learned a lesson because I could have intervened.
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_01: I could have called the coach and done it myself.
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_01: But I think we've tried, and we haven't been perfect, to teach our children that uh I can't clear the way for you because here's the truth you're gonna turn 18 and your kids are gonna go off, and uh there's gonna be a lot in the way.
• 56:29
  SPEAKER_01: There's gonna be lots of snow banks and lots of things that need to get plowed.
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm actually robbing you of the ability to learn how to plow.
• 56:37
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, think about the issues that you face when you're in your 20s versus the issues that you face when you're 12.
• 56:43
  SPEAKER_01: Seems big at 12, but it's like it's the learning the muscle of shoveling.
• 56:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's like you're never gonna know how to run the big snowplow if you don't learn how to shovel the little stuff.
• 56:53
  SPEAKER_01: So that's just something I thought about.
• 56:55
  SPEAKER_02: I think part of it too, Steve, is just helping the kids to know that hardship is not uncommon to mom and dad, too.
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_02: And we don't have to tell them all the details of the hard, but like let's go through these things together.
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_02: Like we're a family and we're gonna we're gonna walk through challenges together.
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_02: And man, you just your prayer is that in subsequent years to come, you'll still be walking through hard things together as a family in the future.
• 57:21
  SPEAKER_02: And what you know, hopefully that's the safest place to say, I'm going through a hard time and we can be like, all right, tell me more, and we're gonna walk through it together.
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_02: And there's nothing we can't walk through together and with the Lord's help, and let's do it.
• 57:34
  SPEAKER_02: And so when they hear mom and dad praying about tough times and they they they see the the reality, we're not protecting, you know, we're fixing bad theology from the drop.
• 57:43
  SPEAKER_02: Like, hey, well, life will be hard.
• 57:45
  SPEAKER_02: There will be challenges.
• 57:46
  SPEAKER_02: If our kids think it's always gonna be perfect, when they hit a tough time, which they are going to, boy, we've led them down a path that that that already is setting them up for uh incredible difficulties and challenges to get there.
• 57:58
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think that's a big piece of it, you know, being authentic in the journey and to the to the right point.
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I mean, they don't need to know all the details, but gosh, this stinks, you know, dad lost his job, and we're gonna pray this thing through, and it's gonna be hard, and we've got to buckle down together.
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_02: And I can remember doing that as a kid when dad lost his job.
• 58:16
  SPEAKER_02: It was like, hey, we're all gonna have to pitch in, we're all gonna have to do things differently, and you know, you're not gonna get all the stuff you want, and you know, you know, whatever.
• 58:25
  SPEAKER_02: It's just I think walking through the reality of it, you know, early is big.
• 58:30
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah.
• 58:34
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think we're at 57, so we're at time.
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_01: So let me button this up for us.
• 58:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, Doug, thanks for sharing your story, man.
• 58:42
  SPEAKER_01: Seriously.
• 58:43
  SPEAKER_01: You betcha.
• 58:43
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for telling, you know, I you've learned so much along the way.
• 58:47
  SPEAKER_01: We could talk way more about adversity beyond even the diagnosis, planting churches and let me just tell you that cancer was the easy one.
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_02: Uh huh.
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_02: When I look back on it now, it just thinks that.
• 58:59
  SPEAKER_02: But that helped me get ready.
• 59:00
  SPEAKER_01: I was just saying it helped me get ready.
• 59:02
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm really thanks for sharing your story and love you, man.
• 59:07
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Carter.
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_01: Love you, bro.
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_02: Talk soon.
• 59:13
  SPEAKER_01: So that's gonna do it for today.
• 59:14
  SPEAKER_01: If something landed for you in this conversation, don't just let it sit.
• 59:19
  SPEAKER_01: Take it with you.
• 59:20
  SPEAKER_01: Carry it into your week.
• 59:21
  SPEAKER_01: Talk about it with someone, let it do something in you.
• 59:25
  SPEAKER_01: And if you want to go deeper, click on the link in the show notes.
• 59:28
  SPEAKER_01: We'll be back soon with more.
• 59:30
  SPEAKER_01: So until then, keep rearranging, keep following.