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Delphi Murders: Suspect's Confession to Shrink Reveals Details Only Killer Knew · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:00
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. I have just come out
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Speaker 1: of the courthouse here at Delphi, and I've got to
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Speaker 1: tell you it's nothing like you would ever imagine. Richard
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Speaker 1: Allen comes in the room, assesses the entire situation, flanked
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Speaker 1: by his lawyers, and then incomes the jury. In the
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Speaker 1: last hours, I have heard testimony that I believe will
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Speaker 1: render a verdict one way or the other. I'm Nancy Grace.
0:33
Speaker 1: This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.
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Speaker 2: To the killer who may be in this room, we
0:39
Speaker 2: believe you are hiding in plain sight. You never thought
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Speaker 2: we would shift gears to a different investigative strategy, but
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Speaker 2: we have. We know that this is about power to you,
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Speaker 2: and you want to know what we know, and one day.
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Speaker 1: You will well.
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Speaker 3: Abby William's blood is in one spot of the crime
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Speaker 3: I'm seeing. Major Pat Cicero says, Libby Germans blood is
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Speaker 3: found in multiple spots of the crime scene. Cicero says
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Speaker 3: Libby was likely attacked close by, but at one point
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Speaker 3: was actually moving and basically walking in blood. Based on
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Speaker 3: a large amount of Libby's blood being found in one spot,
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Speaker 3: it is determined that Libby blood to death a short
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Speaker 3: distance away from where she was first attacked. Also, after
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Speaker 3: Libby was dead, her body was later dragged a short
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Speaker 3: distance and placed close to a large tree.
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Speaker 1: These are some of the facts that the jury has
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Speaker 1: already heard about the way these girls' bodies were found
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Speaker 1: that I can tell you from being in the courtroom.
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Speaker 1: It gets much worse. In the last hours. We have
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Speaker 1: her testimony from a psychologist who saw Richard Allen practically
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Speaker 1: every day behind bars. I heard her describe and I
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Speaker 1: saw Richard Allen's jaw working. The worse it got, the
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Speaker 1: worst it got. I am telling you I would stay
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Speaker 1: everything that I have ever done in court, everything I
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Speaker 1: know about the law on this. Richard Allen is not insane.
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Speaker 1: He did not have a psychotic break. He knows exactly
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Speaker 1: what he's doing, and he is playing everybody will that
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Speaker 1: include the jury. I watch this guy, Nudge's lawyer say
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Speaker 1: something and they give him mints. He asks for water,
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Speaker 1: he asks for a writing pad, He takes notes, he
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Speaker 1: flips the page, he looks around, and he looks back
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Speaker 1: at a group of YouTubers who are very pro defense,
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Speaker 1: who have been publishing horrible things about the victims' families online.
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Speaker 1: I would be very surprised if they don't get sued.
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Speaker 1: These people that are trashing the victims' families suggesting that
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Speaker 1: they had something to do with the murders. Yeah, think
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Speaker 1: about Bert Ramsey before you keep doing that, you YouTubers
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Speaker 1: blaming the victims' families. But that said, let me get
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Speaker 1: back to the evidence. Joining me in All Star Panel,
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Speaker 1: But first I want to go straight out to investigative
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Speaker 1: reporter Susan Hendricks, author of Down the Hill, My Descent
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Speaker 1: into the double murder in Delphi. Okay, it all started
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Speaker 1: off this morning with the first witness on the stand,
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Speaker 1: her name doctor Walla, and she describes multiple confessions the
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Speaker 1: defendant game and the prosecutor, a female prosecutor, is very
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Speaker 1: careful to ask lead up to it. In fact, I
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Speaker 1: thought I was going to jump out of my seat
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Speaker 1: with all the lead up, But now I understand why,
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Speaker 1: how was he acting, what was his demeanor? What else
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Speaker 1: was he saying? And I want to reiterate this. After
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Speaker 1: this guy would give a confession to murdering Abby and Libby,
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Speaker 1: claiming he wanted to rape them, but he saw some
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Speaker 1: guy and he backed off. That that's why he took
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Speaker 1: them down there After he would tell the psychologist this
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Speaker 1: while he was incarcerated with then go, look, I'm worried
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Speaker 1: about I'm not getting enough water. I want my property back,
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Speaker 1: I want a tablet, I want to talk to my wife.
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Speaker 1: I want to change jails. He knew exactly what he
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Speaker 1: was saying. Those confessions were just like, hey, can I
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Speaker 1: have that bottom of water? Please? Can you hand me that?
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Speaker 1: Susan Hendrix. He is just as sane as everybody's sitting
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Speaker 1: up in Congress right now, Susan Hendrix. Can we go
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Speaker 1: straight to the first confession she outlined in court? And
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Speaker 1: I got to tell you, I'm looking at the jury,
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Speaker 1: Susan Hendrix, and I can already see alliances and I
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Speaker 1: conventure to guess who's going to vote which way. But
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Speaker 1: I don't know enough yet, Susan. Let's talk about the
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Speaker 1: confession hit me?
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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean it was riveting inside. And we've been
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Speaker 4: dying to hear from Richard Allen himself.
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Speaker 5: But he is manipulated.
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Speaker 4: And he would just say, nonchalantly, I killed Abby and Libby,
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Speaker 4: but on a coward, I won't kill myself.
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Speaker 5: And it went on and on.
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Speaker 4: But you're right, we've talked about following them on the
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Speaker 4: bridge leading them down the hill. In his own words,
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Speaker 4: I looked over at Abby and Livie's fanileies and tears.
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Speaker 4: It was a long time coming that they finally heard
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Speaker 4: about that.
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Speaker 1: Well, what was so amazing to me, Susan Hendricks, is
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Speaker 1: how he could shift gears. He was completely nonplussed. He
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Speaker 1: would say, I killed Abby and Libby. You know, my
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Speaker 1: wife doesn't believe me. At one juncture, Hey, let's go
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Speaker 1: straight out to Cheryl McCullum joining us. He has been
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Speaker 1: on the case from the very beginning. Founder director of
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Speaker 1: the Cold Case Research Institute and forensic expert. Cheryl, I
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Speaker 1: just wish you had seen this in court today. One thing,
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Speaker 1: the prosecutor knew the psychologist records better than she did.
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Speaker 1: She was having to flip through pages throughout. The prosecutor
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Speaker 1: would have to direct her to a certain document and
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Speaker 1: a certain paragraph in the document to get her to
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Speaker 1: understand what the question was. That can work both ways, Cheryl.
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Speaker 1: Number one, she can look on for pay. But number two,
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Speaker 1: she clearly does not have a dog in the fight.
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Speaker 1: She's not trying to convict this guy, or she would
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Speaker 1: have the answers at the tip of her tongue. Right.
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Speaker 1: So it was amazing to me, Cheryl McCollum, that Alan
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Speaker 1: would be saying I killed Abby and Libby. I wanted
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Speaker 1: to rape them. But this goes back to what you
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Speaker 1: were telling me the other day. But I was interrupted.
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Speaker 1: I thought I saw a guy. Saw backed off. Then
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Speaker 1: within a matter of minutes he'll start saying, I'm worried,
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Speaker 1: I'm not going to get enough water behind bars, I
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Speaker 1: want to change facilities, I want to be closer to
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Speaker 1: my family. I mean, he's clearly totally sane, Cheryl Nancy.
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Speaker 6: They had nine correction officers testify when I was there
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Speaker 6: that he would wait and watch them and would then
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Speaker 6: do things when he knew they were looking at him,
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Speaker 6: like that's when he would.
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Speaker 1: Drink the toilet water.
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Speaker 6: They felt like he was doing that deliberately to make
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Speaker 6: them believe he was insane.
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Speaker 1: That none of them thought he was. Okay, I've got
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Speaker 1: a theory, everybody. Let's go to Philip Dubay, high profile
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Speaker 1: lawyer joining us out of LA in the Public Defender's Office,
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Speaker 1: which means he tries a lot of cases. Philip, this
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Speaker 1: is what I think is happening, and you help me
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Speaker 1: figure out a way to shoot it. Down all right.
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Speaker 1: I think they are going to argue. The defense is
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Speaker 1: going to argue that, of course, Richard Allen degenerated behind
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Speaker 1: bars and he was out of his mind from being
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Speaker 1: in solitary when he gave those confessions. I think the
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Speaker 1: stake is putting laying a foundation right now, Philip, to
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Speaker 1: show that he was confessing until he started confessing to
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Speaker 1: his wife and she said shut the h up, stop
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Speaker 1: saying that. She called his lawyers. Then he meets with
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Speaker 1: his lawyers, and then suddenly, Philip, he starts eating paper,
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Speaker 1: smearing feces, drinking toilet water. He had done nothing of
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Speaker 1: that up until the time he tells his what I
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Speaker 1: did it, and she calls him the lawyers, and then
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Speaker 1: he starts acting crazy. Philip, Debay, you see what I'm
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Speaker 1: saying here. He was giving confessions, his wife told the lawyers,
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Speaker 1: and then suddenly, amazingly, he has a psychotic break. Are
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Speaker 1: you with me? Dubate?
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Speaker 7: Of course, So if I were defending him, this is
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Speaker 7: how I would tackle it. At the test for the
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Speaker 7: volunteeriness of confessions, it's not psychosis or insanity, it's whether
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Speaker 7: or not the conditions were so treacherous and so dreadful
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Speaker 7: that you would cop to anything to change your conditions
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Speaker 7: and surroundings, and by copping out to crimes, in his mind,
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Speaker 7: he thought that they would improve the conditions, give him
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Speaker 7: better food, give him a better sell, and not cut
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Speaker 7: him off from the outside world. And that is the
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Speaker 7: whole theory behind film involuntary confessions.
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Speaker 1: You'll cop to anything, Yes, how can you reconcile the
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Speaker 1: two things that you just said. You said that they're
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Speaker 1: going to argue the conditions in solitary were so horrible
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Speaker 1: that he had a psychotic break, But yet you also
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Speaker 1: said he's angling to get better food, go to a
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Speaker 1: better prison, get more water, get more visits. How can
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Speaker 1: you be crazy and yet you're angling to get better treatment.
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Speaker 1: I mean, that's not crazy, that's crazy like a Fox debate.
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Speaker 7: No, no, no. What you're doing is you're trying to
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Speaker 7: let everybody know that your situation is wreaking havoc on
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Speaker 7: the human psyche due to either under or malnourishment, and
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Speaker 7: he's losing his mind frankly, but not to the point
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Speaker 7: of psychosis or insanity. But to get people to listen
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Speaker 7: to him and feed him properly, give him something to drink,
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Speaker 7: talk to him like a normal person and take him
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Speaker 7: out of those tortuous type conditions so that he can
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Speaker 7: take ag over his life without being non compassment. Is
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Speaker 7: because I truly believe that the malnourishment and the undernourishment
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Speaker 7: was taking an emotional and a mental toll on him
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Speaker 7: to the point that he would say any sail up
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Speaker 7: to get the guard's attention.
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Speaker 1: Philip, what under nourishment? He says, I want more bottle waters.
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Speaker 1: They give it to him. He eats all of his food.
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Speaker 1: What under nourishment are you even talking about? Are you
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Speaker 1: just just spinning this out like ruppel Steelskin? Well, what
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Speaker 1: are you talking about?
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Speaker 2: No?
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Speaker 7: No, don't you remember the man was waste to go
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Speaker 7: way to nothing. He was emaciated, there was nothing looked
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Speaker 7: at him.
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Speaker 1: He doesn't want to look like the bridge guy. They're
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Speaker 1: giving him food. He's changing his appearance. Do you think
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Speaker 1: Ted Bundy wasn't giving food. No, he changed his appearents
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Speaker 1: of loss of weight so he could escape from a
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Speaker 1: heat vent. No, you come on, I'm talking about it,
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Speaker 1: making it about what I just saw in court.
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Speaker 7: I know, but you're making it sound like they were
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Speaker 7: giving him a Schmorgus for it every day and he
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Speaker 7: can eat to his heart's contented.
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Speaker 1: And you're making it sound like they were starting pretty
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Speaker 1: much okay in a way, I can see where this
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Speaker 1: is going. Let me understand your theory is he starved
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Speaker 1: himself into a psychotic break. I don't know that that's possible,
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Speaker 1: but maybe in Philip dubay world it is. Let's go
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Speaker 1: through regardless of what Dubay is advancing right now, Susan Hendrix,
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Speaker 1: I want to go back to what we learned in
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Speaker 1: court today. I want to go to if I can
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Speaker 1: way through all of my notes, let me get back
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Speaker 1: to page seven of my notes. He said he wanted closure,
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Speaker 1: that he wanted to sign his confession, that he wanted
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Speaker 1: to apologize to his family, and that he was trying
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Speaker 1: to forgive himself. At this point, he was quote not disorganized.
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Speaker 1: He had a coherent speech and appearance. He did not cry.
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Speaker 1: He stated that he took the girls down to rape them,
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Speaker 1: that he was interrupted he saw a guy or heard
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Speaker 1: a guy. He stated that he covered their bodies up
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Speaker 1: with twigs, and he said branches. He covered their bodies
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Speaker 1: with branches. He said, I didn't do all the things
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Speaker 1: I've said I've done but I did kill Abby and Libby,
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Speaker 1: but my wife won't believe me. He wanted to know
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Speaker 1: if his family would quote keep loving him. In fact,
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Speaker 1: he asked a psychologist to get him a phone. She
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Speaker 1: did get him a phone. He spoke to his wife
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Speaker 1: when she came back into the room the psychologist. He
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Speaker 1: wanted to recall the wife and he went, no, I
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Speaker 1: want you to stay in here. I want you to
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Speaker 1: hear it. And he continued to confess. Susan relate to
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Speaker 1: everyone what we've just heard in court.
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Speaker 4: Yes, and hearing doctor Walla on the stand, Nancy, as
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Speaker 4: you said, and saying at one point that he may
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Speaker 4: lested his sister. Another time, as you mentioned, saying he
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Speaker 4: was interrupted and that could either read Libby's dad who
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Speaker 4: was set there to pick her up around three point thirty?
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Speaker 5: Was he calling her name?
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Speaker 4: Did that interrupt Richard Allen? But finally admitted to this,
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Speaker 4: and yesterday he looked very different. We saw the October
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Speaker 4: twenty twenty two video, the first interview, What do you
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Speaker 4: seem like a normal guy?
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Speaker 5: Though nothing was wrong?
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Speaker 4: Now he's meek, putting his head down, glaring back and
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Speaker 4: his wife are absolutely right, these are key to this case.
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Speaker 4: I believe that he's not insane, that that high security
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Speaker 4: prison did not cause him to become insane. I believe
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Speaker 4: he leaves manipulated, manipulative, and did kill Abby and Libby
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Speaker 4: from his own works, says a Hendrick.
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Speaker 1: She kind of glossed over a big bombshell in the courtroom.
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Speaker 1: He said that his words to the effect that his problem,
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Speaker 1: that's what he called it. I was calling it attraction
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Speaker 1: to underage girls. But his problem all started when he
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Speaker 1: molested his sister. That's what he set in court. Did
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Speaker 1: you hear that?
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Speaker 4: I heard that and I wrote it down, and he said,
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Speaker 4: molesting his sister, that molesting kids his own age when
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Speaker 4: he was younger. And Nancy, I know you remember this
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Speaker 4: when he said he thought Abby and Libby were older.
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Speaker 5: This is after the fact, after he killed them. It
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Speaker 5: dawned on him, Oh I thought they were older.
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Speaker 1: What is your last memory?
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Speaker 8: She was standing at the door with a smile that
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Speaker 8: she has, and I said it could be a little
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Speaker 8: chilly out there.
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Speaker 1: You get a jacket. She just looked at me and
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Speaker 1: smiled and said, I'll be okay. It's okay, Groy. That's
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Speaker 1: that's my last memory.
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Speaker 9: Dropping her off of their house were there were their paints.
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Speaker 1: That is the last visual I have with left girl.
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Speaker 5: It's on that bridge.
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Speaker 10: Explaining how Libby's blood ended up on a small tree
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Speaker 10: about four feet from the ground, Major Cicero says it's
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Speaker 10: likely a blood transfer as the result of coming in
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Speaker 10: contact with the bloody body of Libby German. Cicero believes
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Speaker 10: at least one of her neck injuries happened near the
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Speaker 10: small tree. Cicero also believes Libby left a bloody handprin
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Speaker 10: shaped like an upside down l on one of the trees.
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Speaker 1: We are camped outside the del Fi Courthouse and have
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Speaker 1: just come out of the courtroom bringing you the very
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Speaker 1: latest and I will guarantee you whether the jury hears
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Speaker 1: it or not from the experts. Richard Allen is not crazy.
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Speaker 1: Richard Allen did not have a psychotic break behind bars.
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Speaker 1: He is playing everybody like a fiddle. Joining me right
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Speaker 1: now is Jeffrey Gentry, forensic certified Bloodstained pattern Analyst, Senior
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Speaker 1: crime scene analyst, a death investigator, former toxicology lab analyst.
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Speaker 1: It goes on and on, but listen to this author
15:40
Speaker 1: of forensic science Applications to death and crime scene investigations
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Speaker 1: and many more. Jeffrey Gentry, thank you so much for
15:49
Speaker 1: being with us. Jeff I want you to hear this. Listen.
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Speaker 3: The crime scene has multiple areas of blood that are
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Speaker 3: almost all from Livy German, and in an area away
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Speaker 3: from where the bodies of Liby and Abbey are found
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Speaker 3: is a big pool of blood near a tree. This
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Speaker 3: is the spot where Libby's throat is slit and where
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Speaker 3: she most likely grabs at her neck as a reflex
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Speaker 3: action to try and slow the bleeding. It is in
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Speaker 3: this spot where Libby German slumps against the tree, unable
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Speaker 3: to stop the bleeding, accounting for the vast amount of
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Speaker 3: blood on her hands, before coming to a seated position
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Speaker 3: near where the largest pool of coagulating blood is found.
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Speaker 1: Jeffrey Gentry, could you explain what we just heard how
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Speaker 1: you can tell what happened by the blood analysis.
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Speaker 11: Yes, Nancy, I'm really happy that the prosecution used a
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Speaker 11: blood powdered analyst, because that's what blood analysis is for.
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Speaker 11: It's for explaining unwitnessed events when there's blood at a seam,
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Speaker 11: and if you have blood, it's going to explain events
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Speaker 11: that occurred and in this case there it was obviously
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Speaker 11: a lot of blood. These poor little girls suffered quite
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Speaker 11: a bit. And in this case, the young lady that
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Speaker 11: was found owned there was taken from one location to another.
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Speaker 11: There were blood transfers on the tree, and they were
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Speaker 11: up high enough that would indicate that she was upright
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Speaker 11: at some point during.
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Speaker 1: Could you just hold on just one moment, I'm drinking
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Speaker 1: for the fire hydrant here. You're giving me so much information.
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Speaker 1: Could you repeat the starting two sentences ago about how
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Speaker 1: the blood transfer got on the tree and what that
17:27
Speaker 1: means to you in combination with the highly saturated earth
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Speaker 1: saturated with blood.
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Speaker 11: Yes, So this young lady sustained neck injuries or major
17:39
Speaker 11: major wounds that are going to bleed a lot, and
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Speaker 11: they're going to bleed very fast, and almost always as
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Speaker 11: a reaction to these type of injuries, a victim is
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Speaker 11: going to touch the wound, and so by touching that wound,
17:52
Speaker 11: they're going to transfer blood to their hand or their arms,
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Speaker 11: and in an effort to either fight off their attacker
17:59
Speaker 11: or just to survive themselves, they're going to touch other objects.
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Speaker 11: And so that's exactly what happened in this case. There
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Speaker 11: were blood transfer stains that were high enough up on
18:10
Speaker 11: a tree that would indicate that she was in a
18:12
Speaker 11: standing position. So she's touched this wound, she knows she's injured,
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Speaker 11: and then she's transferring her own blood to this tree,
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Speaker 11: either by her fingers or hand or body parts that
18:23
Speaker 11: are bloody. But then at some point you're going to
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Speaker 11: start to suffer the effects of blood loss, and so
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Speaker 11: there was evidence that she bleds significantly near that tree.
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Speaker 11: So you have blood that's accumulated on the ground. It's
18:40
Speaker 11: normally like if you had it in a living room
18:42
Speaker 11: or on a tile floor, you would see a giant
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Speaker 11: blood pool, but in this case, it's out in the open,
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Speaker 11: it's on dirt or branches, and so you see that
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Speaker 11: there is evidence of a large volume of blood there
18:54
Speaker 11: that starts to obviously coagulate and dry. So that's how
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Speaker 11: we know that not only was she injured when she
19:01
Speaker 11: was standing, but then she's essentially fighting off or trying
19:06
Speaker 11: to get away from her attacker.
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Speaker 5: She touches the.
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Speaker 11: Tree while standing, and then as she sustains the effects
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Speaker 11: of blood loss, she then likely collapses in that area,
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Speaker 11: allowing blood to accumulate on the ground near the tree,
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Speaker 11: and again That's what blood potter and analysis is all about.
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Speaker 11: It's there to explain events that are unwitnessed. When there
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Speaker 11: is bleeding that has occurred.
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Speaker 1: Take a listen to this, Jeff.
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Speaker 10: The large fool of blood near the base of the
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Speaker 10: small tree is most likely the spot where Libby dies.
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Speaker 10: She's then dragged to the location where her body will
19:35
Speaker 10: be found the next day. Major past Ciro says the
19:38
Speaker 10: streaks of blood that run from Libby's right eye to
19:41
Speaker 10: her ear were textbook consistent with dilution, pointing out how
19:45
Speaker 10: they get lighter and lighter and describing it as absent rain,
19:48
Speaker 10: drop or water. He says the source of the thinning
19:52
Speaker 10: was a tear. Sniffles are heard through the courtroom and
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Speaker 10: it's at this point they carry Timmins Liberty German's mother
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Speaker 10: breaks down.
20:00
Speaker 1: All along the victims parents' grandparents have hoped and prayed
20:06
Speaker 1: the girls died quickly. When the evidence of the blood
20:12
Speaker 1: mingled with the girl's tears came out in court, the
20:18
Speaker 1: family couldn't take it. It's horrible crime stories with Nancy Grace
20:33
Speaker 1: to Jeff Gentry, if you could analyze what you are hearing.
20:37
Speaker 1: Number one that based on the blood evidence alone, the
20:41
Speaker 1: detectives know that at least one of the girls was
20:45
Speaker 1: dragged to where she was found. And number two, how
20:49
Speaker 1: do you determine that a tear going down the side
20:53
Speaker 1: of the face was mixed with or diluted with a
20:58
Speaker 1: tear was diluted with blood?
21:00
Speaker 11: Okay, I'll tackle those in the order you gave them
21:03
Speaker 11: to me. So, the body being transferred from one location
21:07
Speaker 11: to another, just like the blood that was transferred to
21:10
Speaker 11: a tree, You'll see evidence of blood transfer on the ground.
21:14
Speaker 11: When somebody is bleeding, they're going to either continue to
21:17
Speaker 11: bleed or if they already died, they're going to have
21:20
Speaker 11: blood on their body. So you can see blood that
21:22
Speaker 11: has been transferred from one location to another. And just
21:26
Speaker 11: the mere fact that these injuries were so severe and
21:30
Speaker 11: that there was a large accumulation of blood near the tree,
21:33
Speaker 11: naturally you would assume that this young lady likely died
21:37
Speaker 11: near the tree. And then since their body was found
21:39
Speaker 11: in another location, that it was transferred from one spot
21:42
Speaker 11: to another. In addition to that, there will be blows
21:47
Speaker 11: or blood that has went from one location to another
21:51
Speaker 11: on the body. And so when the body is found
21:54
Speaker 11: in a position that contradicts those flow patterns, you can
21:57
Speaker 11: also tell that the body has been moved, and that
21:59
Speaker 11: was case on her body as far as the tears go.
22:05
Speaker 11: That's an amazing observation by the blood analyst. So I'm
22:10
Speaker 11: very proud that they found that, because it's hard to
22:14
Speaker 11: see those kind of things, and considering that he was
22:17
Speaker 11: going in after the fact and looking at photographs, it's
22:20
Speaker 11: difficult to see those type of things. But what you're
22:23
Speaker 11: looking at on the body, and when you bleed, the
22:26
Speaker 11: blood is going to dry on the body rather quickly,
22:30
Speaker 11: and if there's a diluting substance, you'll be able to
22:33
Speaker 11: see that. And in this case it was near her
22:36
Speaker 11: eyes or her face. That would indicate that the only
22:39
Speaker 11: fluid source available was tears, and so that'll dilute the blood.
22:44
Speaker 11: A picture anytime you've ever bled, like if you've cut
22:47
Speaker 11: yourself shaving or you had a little cut on your
22:50
Speaker 11: hand and you bleed in the sink, well, when you
22:52
Speaker 11: turn on the water, it's going to dilute the blood
22:55
Speaker 11: and that's what it's going to look like. The question
22:57
Speaker 11: I believe that was brought up in for it is
22:59
Speaker 11: was it maybe condensation or environmental factors? And if it
23:04
Speaker 11: was an environmental factor or like condensation or rain, you
23:07
Speaker 11: would see the blood diluted uniformly throughout the entire body
23:12
Speaker 11: or all the blood stands on the body, whereas in
23:15
Speaker 11: this case they just saw that near the area of
23:17
Speaker 11: the eye or the face, and that would provide additional
23:21
Speaker 11: evidence that it was tears that diluted the blood as
23:23
Speaker 11: opposed to some other some of the fluid or condensation.
23:27
Speaker 8: The deaths of Libby, Jermy and Abby Williams have impacted
23:30
Speaker 8: the Delphi community and beyond. The crime scene photos and
23:33
Speaker 8: testimony have been hard to see and hear, But when
23:36
Speaker 8: Major Pat Cico explains how blood that flowed down Libby's
23:39
Speaker 8: face bore the tracks of the teen's tears, it was
23:43
Speaker 8: almost too much to bear. As your mother breaks down
23:45
Speaker 8: and weeps in the courtroom.
23:48
Speaker 9: The focus now of the defense is the timeline, not
23:51
Speaker 9: what did they do, when did they do it? And
23:55
Speaker 9: who was around to see it? And what did they
23:58
Speaker 9: tell authorities?
24:03
Speaker 6: The timeline is critical because she did not record just
24:08
Speaker 6: guys down the hill.
24:10
Speaker 1: We all know that there's more well.
24:12
Speaker 3: Libby German has blood on her body and hands, has
24:15
Speaker 3: multiple cuts to her throat, and walked in the blood
24:18
Speaker 3: Abby Williams.
24:19
Speaker 1: Is much different.
24:20
Speaker 3: Major pat Cicero says it is likely that Abby was
24:23
Speaker 3: laying down on her back when her throat was slit.
24:26
Speaker 3: When Abby has found her hands are baled up like
24:28
Speaker 3: fists to her chest and tucked into the sweatshirt she
24:31
Speaker 3: is wearing that belongs to Libby. It is most likely
24:34
Speaker 3: that Abby died where she was attacked.
24:36
Speaker 1: We are alive here at the courthouse in Delphi and
24:39
Speaker 1: have just come out of the courtroom. We've all been waiting,
24:43
Speaker 1: waiting for that evidence that could clinch the case for
24:48
Speaker 1: the state or disprove the state's case, because I've got
24:51
Speaker 1: to tell you and a lot of the fact that
24:53
Speaker 1: there is no DNA linking the defendant, Richard Allen, to
24:58
Speaker 1: the crime scene. If all the state was relying on
25:02
Speaker 1: was a bullet that was cycle through, not shot down,
25:06
Speaker 1: the barrel of a gun, which of course leaves a
25:09
Speaker 1: fingerprint marking that links one bullet to one particular gun.
25:14
Speaker 1: Without that, we had to hear the confessions, and in
25:20
Speaker 1: those confessions there had to be something that only the
25:25
Speaker 1: killer would know. And that just happened because I'm telling you,
25:30
Speaker 1: with no DNA, no eyewitness, and just the bullet found there.
25:35
Speaker 1: Some of the jurors could not accept the science behind
25:41
Speaker 1: specific indentations and markings on a bullet that was never fired.
25:46
Speaker 1: Some may reject that, just like jurors at one time
25:50
Speaker 1: didn't believe DNA or fingerprints. Yes, it happens. So we
25:54
Speaker 1: were waiting and waiting, and we just heard from the
25:59
Speaker 1: witness stand a psychologist that spent practically every day behind bars,
26:05
Speaker 1: with Richard Allen joining me in investigative reporter Susan Hendrix,
26:09
Speaker 1: who actually wrote the book Down the Hill, My Descent
26:12
Speaker 1: into the double Murder in Delphi. Susan, I want to
26:16
Speaker 1: refer you to the one of the many confessions he gave,
26:23
Speaker 1: and he states that he had a gun. He states
26:28
Speaker 1: that he pointed the gun. He describes exactly what happens.
26:35
Speaker 1: He admits he was at the bridge at the time
26:38
Speaker 1: the murders occurred in that time period, wearing the same
26:43
Speaker 1: clothes as the bridge guy. Now, could you explain when
26:49
Speaker 1: he tells the jury that he had a gun and
26:52
Speaker 1: that he then covered the girl's bodies with branches, that
26:57
Speaker 1: information was not out there, that had not been released.
27:02
Speaker 1: Only the killer would have known all that absolutely.
27:05
Speaker 5: And there goes the spin Nancy.
27:07
Speaker 4: The defense trying to say the oldness theory and that
27:10
Speaker 4: sticks at the site happened to be put in a
27:13
Speaker 4: specific order.
27:15
Speaker 5: Near Atby's head, and that it meant something. Now we
27:19
Speaker 5: learned why he did.
27:20
Speaker 4: Growing sticks on as the prosecution thought, and now we're
27:24
Speaker 4: hearing it from.
27:24
Speaker 5: His own words.
27:26
Speaker 4: He followed them on the bridge, ordered them down a hill,
27:30
Speaker 4: had the gun, and that voice down the hill, down
27:33
Speaker 4: the hill we've put over and over again, we hear
27:35
Speaker 4: it from him finally, and they're absolutely right. In terms
27:38
Speaker 4: of circumstantial evidence. We couldn't have just the bullet. Now
27:42
Speaker 4: we have his confessions, and again there goes the oldness
27:45
Speaker 4: theory that the judge didn't.
27:46
Speaker 1: Allow him one of his mini confessions. Now after he
27:51
Speaker 1: states on his own Sue Sponte that he had molested
27:55
Speaker 1: as sister and that's where he thought his quote problems
27:58
Speaker 1: started somehow, almost blaming his sister. He then finds religion
28:04
Speaker 1: behind bars. He demands Bibles, which he gets. He wants
28:10
Speaker 1: more Bibles, he wants to share his Bible. He sleeps
28:13
Speaker 1: with his Bible, and during his religious phase, he confesses.
28:19
Speaker 1: He says he wants to apologize to the victim's family,
28:22
Speaker 1: and he wants closure by signing his confession. What about it,
28:28
Speaker 1: Susan Hendrix.
28:29
Speaker 4: Giving the family a bible too. I looked over, I
28:32
Speaker 4: saw eyes rolling. I'd like to give this bible to
28:34
Speaker 4: having with these families. Look, they don't want it. They
28:37
Speaker 4: want their girls back, and you took their lives away
28:40
Speaker 4: at just age thirteen and fourteen years old. It's despicable
28:43
Speaker 4: and I'm glad that the jurors are hearing.
28:45
Speaker 1: He actually said he regretted what he did and the
28:49
Speaker 1: fact that he was asking for closure by signing the confession. Guys,
28:55
Speaker 1: in addition to Jeffrey Gentry, Cheryl McCollum, Philip with Dubey,
28:58
Speaker 1: Susan Hendrix joining me right now is a renowned medical examiner.
29:04
Speaker 1: He is the author of American Narcan, and he has
29:08
Speaker 1: devoted his life to helping others, specifically in bringing peace
29:15
Speaker 1: and closure on causes of death. Doctor William Moroney, my
29:20
Speaker 1: longtime colleague and friend, Doctor Moroney, I want to talk
29:24
Speaker 1: to you about some very odd cuts to one to
29:29
Speaker 1: the girl's next and Susan Hendrick to jump in because
29:32
Speaker 1: I believe you heard the testimony as well. The throat slashings.
29:36
Speaker 1: Doctor Moroney, were not completely across the neck. In at
29:40
Speaker 1: least one of the victims, there were multiple four to
29:43
Speaker 1: five vertical cuts on their necks, and the medical examiner
29:52
Speaker 1: is going to be tested the medical examiner's report as
29:56
Speaker 1: to whether the cuts were done with a box cutter
30:00
Speaker 1: as opposed to say, a butcher knife. And also, I
30:04
Speaker 1: want your opinion on the blood evidence we're hearing about
30:08
Speaker 1: and those vertical cuts, because you don't normally here of
30:12
Speaker 1: someone's throat getting slashed with vertical cuts. What does all
30:16
Speaker 1: of this mean to you, doctor Moroney.
30:18
Speaker 12: It's interesting to say that there's vertical and there's horizontal,
30:23
Speaker 12: because what you have to ask is which happened first.
30:27
Speaker 12: That's a big part of this. I want to bring
30:30
Speaker 12: in a prop and show you a neck. This is
30:33
Speaker 12: how we demonstrate this the neck. When you look at vertical,
30:40
Speaker 12: those were probably done first because anything going horizontal would
30:47
Speaker 12: have ended life instantly and the loss of blood pressure
30:52
Speaker 12: would have caused a complete collapse and the body would
30:57
Speaker 12: have gone down. Now, the reason why the vertical is
31:01
Speaker 12: important this is a box cutter is you don't have
31:05
Speaker 12: a big long blade. You have to go in this
31:10
Speaker 12: way and down. Now, the vertical cuts come first because
31:16
Speaker 12: somebody's reaching out cut. The final cut would have been
31:22
Speaker 12: if there was somebody against a tree or on the ground,
31:26
Speaker 12: and it would have come this way. The order tells
31:30
Speaker 12: you that the victim did not die instantly, and that's
31:36
Speaker 12: what you get with the transfer of blood. When a
31:40
Speaker 12: victim tries to close a wound, they're pushing left or
31:44
Speaker 12: right together, but it's really hard. If you get that
31:49
Speaker 12: first cut this way, you lose posture, you lose blood pressure,
31:57
Speaker 12: and it's almost impossible to stop. So the order of
32:01
Speaker 12: the cuts are important.
32:03
Speaker 13: And if we go back to the consistency of the
32:08
Speaker 13: diluted blood with tears, if they do the analysis right,
32:13
Speaker 13: tears contain lipids, proteins, antibodies, and stress hormones that in
32:22
Speaker 13: those samples that dry are going to show you.
32:27
Speaker 12: That it wasn't rain and it wasn't moisture. So the order,
32:32
Speaker 12: the timing of how the cuts can be determined. That
32:37
Speaker 12: anything that's vertical really makes a lot more sense, as
32:41
Speaker 12: that's how it started. Plus, if somebody comes after you
32:45
Speaker 12: with a box knife and you lean back, you're losing
32:51
Speaker 12: contact coming this way, and that's how the person didn't
32:58
Speaker 12: die right away. And the victim probably suffered much more
33:03
Speaker 12: because those verticals, especially if they were trying to defend themselves,
33:10
Speaker 12: were the first cuts, and the horizontal cut was batal.
33:20
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. We are live at the
33:27
Speaker 1: Delphi Courthouse and have just come out of the court
33:29
Speaker 1: room after riveting testimony by a psychologists. Have spent day
33:33
Speaker 1: upon day upon day with Richard Allen. Before I go
33:37
Speaker 1: to the other panelists, let me go back to Susan Hendrix,
33:39
Speaker 1: joining us, investigative reporter and author of Down the Hill,
33:43
Speaker 1: My descent into the double murder in Delphi. So many confessions,
33:48
Speaker 1: I just I don't what else will it take. Susan Hendrix,
33:51
Speaker 1: He's given over sixty confessions. He's remorseful, he got tearful
33:56
Speaker 1: in son of them, and one of them. He says,
33:59
Speaker 1: I wanted to go back and change what he did.
34:04
Speaker 1: He took comfort in religion. He says, over and over,
34:07
Speaker 1: I killed Abby and Libby. My wife won't believe me.
34:11
Speaker 1: I want closure by signing my confession. But what I'm
34:14
Speaker 1: looking for is specific detail, because a confession that is
34:18
Speaker 1: rich in detail, or statement rich in detail, is more believable.
34:23
Speaker 1: He explains he wanted to rape the girls, but then
34:26
Speaker 1: did not. He goes on to describe putting branches over them,
34:31
Speaker 1: says he had a gun. He goes on with information,
34:36
Speaker 1: for instance, that he saw a man and that cut
34:39
Speaker 1: into what he wanted to do. The psychologist said he
34:44
Speaker 1: appeared relieved after he gave the confession. She also said
34:49
Speaker 1: that she believed he was feigning, feigning in order to
34:54
Speaker 1: manipulate people. The odd behavior such as drinking toilet water,
35:00
Speaker 1: behavior with his own feces. None of that happened till
35:04
Speaker 1: he confessed to his wife, and she called the lawyer,
35:07
Speaker 1: and the lawyer met with him. So what are the
35:10
Speaker 1: other details that he revealed in his confessions to the psychologist?
35:15
Speaker 1: Susan Hendrix today?
35:18
Speaker 5: Was it, Nancy?
35:19
Speaker 4: We heard it together, telling that step by step of
35:23
Speaker 4: what he did. He admits to you following the girls
35:26
Speaker 4: on the bridge, having a gun, ordering them down the
35:30
Speaker 4: hill being interrupted, as you said, that could either be
35:33
Speaker 4: the owner of the private property down the hill, who
35:36
Speaker 4: was a white van and there's a roadway here the
35:39
Speaker 4: white ban or was it Libby's father who was supposed
35:42
Speaker 4: to pick them up? Derek and says that he called
35:45
Speaker 4: for the girls. Is that what interrupted them? But giving
35:49
Speaker 4: a detail by detail account of what he did and
35:52
Speaker 4: write his wife hanging up, calling the attorneys, and that
35:55
Speaker 4: is where the defense is going to go, saying he
35:58
Speaker 4: was in.
35:58
Speaker 5: A maximum security pridge.
36:00
Speaker 4: He should have been there, wasn't convicted and that place
36:04
Speaker 4: drove him to this psychosis, but again confessing over and over,
36:08
Speaker 4: saying he wanted to start four three.
36:11
Speaker 1: He never complained about his treatment to the psychologists, even
36:15
Speaker 1: when remember they kept asking a court, what did he
36:18
Speaker 1: list as his complaints? He never complained about his treatment.
36:24
Speaker 1: And isn't it true, Susan Hendrix that in his confession
36:27
Speaker 1: to the psychologist he said he had a gun. Nobody
36:33
Speaker 1: knew that for the longest time. Remember we were speculating
36:37
Speaker 1: about the cod cause of death. No one knew there
36:40
Speaker 1: was a gun except the killer. And here he is
36:44
Speaker 1: telling all to the psychologist.
36:46
Speaker 4: Absolutely and law enforcement was criticized Nancy four years for
36:51
Speaker 4: not telling us or giving us more information. What is
36:54
Speaker 4: because they did have that pullet that they said there
36:56
Speaker 4: was a gun.
36:57
Speaker 5: He mixed to the gun.
36:59
Speaker 4: Now we have a thing of evil words that we wanted.
37:02
Speaker 5: To hear from the killer. I believe he is the killer.
37:05
Speaker 5: I believe this is what everyone need wanted to hear.
37:09
Speaker 5: And as you know, it's so whitney outside of the courthouse.
37:12
Speaker 5: I know you're feeling it too well. We were inside.
37:15
Speaker 4: If everyone was listening very closely to what this doctor
37:18
Speaker 4: got to say, why because she was speaking for Richard
37:22
Speaker 4: Allen what he said to her, even claiming, remember this
37:25
Speaker 4: Nancy a sex addiction.
37:27
Speaker 1: We are lying in the Delphi courthouse bringing you the
37:29
Speaker 1: latest testimony pouring from the witness stand Susan Hendrix. I
37:33
Speaker 1: just want to go over another thing I heard in
37:35
Speaker 1: the courtroom. I heard in one of the confessions Alan gave.
37:39
Speaker 1: He said I made sure they were dead because I
37:43
Speaker 1: didn't want them to and then it faded out. I
37:46
Speaker 1: couldn't hear what the witness was saying. I didn't want
37:49
Speaker 1: them to. What tell anybody? I made sure they were
37:52
Speaker 1: dead because I didn't want them to what suffer?
37:55
Speaker 5: He didn't want them to suffer?
37:57
Speaker 1: Oh, how kind of him? He also said the string
38:01
Speaker 1: also said he did not indicate anyone helped him. He
38:08
Speaker 1: again reiterates this was all about sex and that he
38:12
Speaker 1: thought the girls could have been as young as eleven. Okay.
38:16
Speaker 1: He then points out other people he saw in the vicinity.
38:18
Speaker 1: They're all children. He's staking out the bridge looking at children.
38:23
Speaker 1: He saw three other people, he says, joining me right
38:26
Speaker 1: now is doctor Mark Mirabello. He is the author of
38:30
Speaker 1: the odin Brotherhood at Markmirabello dot com oric thank you
38:34
Speaker 1: for being with us. We heard that the defendant revealed
38:39
Speaker 1: he laid branches across the girl's body. That happens all
38:43
Speaker 1: the time when murders occur outdoors. The killer, for whatever
38:48
Speaker 1: psychological reason, tries to cover up their body with branches
38:51
Speaker 1: or leaves. What could that possibly have to do with Odinism?
38:55
Speaker 14: Mark, You can have a ritual without sacker, but you
39:00
Speaker 14: cannot have sacrifice without ritual. And to just lay a
39:04
Speaker 14: few branches on someone and to carve some kind of
39:08
Speaker 14: symbol on a tree, this does not qualify as a
39:11
Speaker 14: ritual sacrifice. Ritual sacrifices are really elaborate and can take
39:17
Speaker 14: a great period of time. So, now, regarding how various
39:22
Speaker 14: defense witnesses have claimed that they see significance in the
39:27
Speaker 14: way the crime scene was arranged, that reminds me of
39:30
Speaker 14: how some people can see messages in alphabet soup. There
39:34
Speaker 14: really isn't one there, but they see it.
39:36
Speaker 1: With the letters Okay, now wait, hold on just a moment,
39:39
Speaker 1: doctor Martin Mirabello. I'm starting to understand what you are
39:43
Speaker 1: talking about when you say people reading messages in their
39:45
Speaker 1: alphabet soup, because that's spinning way out there. Putting branches
39:50
Speaker 1: over two bodies, in my mind, is not equal ODESSM.
39:54
Speaker 1: But that is what the defense is going to try
39:56
Speaker 1: and argue. Guys. Doctor Mirabello is the author of the
39:59
Speaker 1: O Brotherhood. Cheryl McCollum and Susan Hendrix, I want to
40:05
Speaker 1: talk to you very quickly before you have to go
40:07
Speaker 1: back into the courtroom about the audio portion of the bridge, guy,
40:13
Speaker 1: Susan Hendricks, isn't it true that when the full portion
40:18
Speaker 1: of the audio is played we hear a lot more.
40:22
Speaker 1: There is mention of a gun. Only the killer and
40:24
Speaker 1: the two girls would have known that. What else did
40:27
Speaker 1: you hear on the audio, Susan Hendricks?
40:30
Speaker 4: Initially I thought they sound so young, and that was
40:33
Speaker 4: heart wretching, of course, hearing the girl's voices. But you
40:36
Speaker 4: did hear Abby say, hey, don't leave me up here,
40:39
Speaker 4: because she was a couple steps back from Libby.
40:41
Speaker 5: Then you hear Libby say we got to go down
40:43
Speaker 5: this way. Then you hear that's a gun.
40:46
Speaker 4: Or something to that affected me her a clip and
40:48
Speaker 4: then you hear guys and hi got.
40:52
Speaker 5: Scared high and then down the hill. It was hard to.
40:55
Speaker 1: Listen to Cheryl McCollum. That has been your assertion since
40:58
Speaker 1: day one when this video emerged, that the purp the
41:02
Speaker 1: bridge guy who happens to be wearing the very same
41:06
Speaker 1: clothes as a Richard Allen, who places himself at the
41:10
Speaker 1: location of the crime scene at the time of the crime.
41:13
Speaker 1: All along you said you thought he had a gun
41:15
Speaker 1: stuffed in his pocket, that that was what he's holding.
41:17
Speaker 6: Absolutely, and Leggett testified that he, as a police officer,
41:22
Speaker 6: could hear that gun racking. And you know, I also
41:26
Speaker 6: think they found another unspent cartridge in his memory box
41:31
Speaker 6: in his bedroom. Could back, you know, could that be
41:34
Speaker 6: the one that he picked up, because Nancy, again to
41:37
Speaker 6: your point, he puts himself there daytime, he's own video.
41:41
Speaker 1: You hear that voice.
41:43
Speaker 6: And some people have already said from the tapes they've
41:46
Speaker 6: heard it sounds like bridge guy. He parked way away
41:49
Speaker 6: from the bridge, he had the you know, ejected cartridge
41:53
Speaker 6: that was unspent that matched his weapon. He stopped on
41:57
Speaker 6: a warm.
41:57
Speaker 1: Day to get a jacket.
41:58
Speaker 6: None of this makes.
41:59
Speaker 1: Sense, and let me tell you, this is just day
42:04
Speaker 1: one of the beginning of his confessions, and already admitting
42:09
Speaker 1: to the branches, the gun, the intent to rape, and
42:12
Speaker 1: so much more than only the killer would know. We
42:17
Speaker 1: wait as just as unfolds. Thank you for joining us
42:22
Speaker 1: here on crime Stories. Out in front of the Deli
42:25
Speaker 1: Fi Courthouse as testimony resumes. Goodbye friend.