Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Talks to Luke Molloy & Dylan Rees about their choice of Heaven Sent

Transcript

Talks to Luke Molloy & Dylan Rees about their choice of Heaven Sent · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

• 0:00
  Hello everybody. Why on earth has he chosen to do
• 0:06
  this pretentious opening sequence on this particular
• 0:10
  episode of Doctor Who? I hear you all asking.
• 0:15
  That's because it's quite a pretentious episode of Doctor
• 0:17
  Who. But that is a contentious
• 0:21
  opinion, which is countered in this episode.
• 0:24
  And one of three reasons why I've chosen to do this
• 0:28
  introduction is 1. So I could put a snatch of the
• 0:31
  music in it because I think it's wonderful and everybody needs to
• 0:35
  hear it. Actually, four reasons.
• 0:38
  Two, I think the fact that you can have a contentious argument
• 0:45
  during a conversation about Doctor Who is a really healthy
• 0:48
  thing as long as you still remember to love each other at
• 0:52
  the end. And this is what happens when me
• 0:54
  and Dylan Reece and Luke Malloy come together, two of the most
• 0:58
  wonderful people I've ever met, through Doctor Who, from very
• 1:02
  different walks of life. And we've come together.
• 1:06
  We never agree on anything. We literally never have an
• 1:09
  opinion that marries all three of us.
• 1:12
  But we sort of get to come together, battle it out.
• 1:16
  It means that one of us is usually on the back foot, so the
• 1:20
  other two are doubling down on their opinion.
• 1:22
  And it's just so healthy. It's so healthy to have a safe
• 1:25
  space where you can talk about this stuff and, you know,
• 1:29
  disagree and still adore each other at the end, which I hope
• 1:34
  we all did. At the end of this one, somebody
• 1:36
  didn't like this episode and the other two did.
• 1:39
  And I think it makes for a more balanced and interesting
• 1:42
  conversation because of it. Another reason is I just wanted
• 1:47
  to say how much I adore Luke Malloy and Dylan Reece, two of
• 1:50
  the finest gentlemen you'll find podcasting about Doctor Who.
• 1:54
  And I need no other reason to do this introduction but to say
• 1:58
  that to the pair of them. I know they're both cringing
• 2:02
  right now, but fuck you guys, all right?
• 2:04
  And the third reason I want to do this is because we've reached
• 2:10
  a milestone. This is the 700th episode of a
• 2:14
  hamster with a blood penknife to be recorded.
• 2:17
  Probably won't be the 700th to go out because I bring them out
• 2:20
  all out of order, but it is to be recorded.
• 2:22
  I numbered them as ago and what a milestone, man. 700 episodes.
• 2:29
  That is talking a whole bunch of bullshit, isn't it?
• 2:32
  But so this is just a massive thank you to everybody that's
• 2:35
  ever pressed play and enjoyed this stuff.
• 2:38
  Or not enjoyed this stuff or shouted at their speakers or
• 2:43
  used it as company or just background noise to go to sleep,
• 2:47
  talk, whatever you do with this podcast, thank you very much for
• 2:50
  pressing play. And just a massive thank you to
• 2:53
  every contributor that's given up their time because we're well
• 2:57
  into the, you know, over 100 contributors now and you're all
• 3:01
  just wonderful. So yeah, 700 episodes, so
• 3:06
  ranging from half an hour to three hours long.
• 3:10
  Man, oh man, that is a lot of runtime.
• 3:14
  Thank you for your opinions and thank you for pressing play.
• 3:16
  And I really hope you enjoyed this episode.
• 3:19
  It's one of my favourites. Welcome back to A Hamster with a
• 3:23
  Blunt Penknife, a Doctor Who commentary podcast.
• 3:26
  I'm here. I'm Dylan Reece and sent
• 3:29
  directly from heaven. It's, it's Luke Malloy joining
• 3:32
  us. Luke, how are you?
• 3:33
  Hello, I'm excited, very excited to be watching the best episode
• 3:37
  of Doctor Who of all time. Right.
• 3:40
  Exactly. Me too.
• 3:41
  And he's hell bent. It's Joe Ford.
• 3:47
  The best episode of Doctor Who of all time, as voted by DWM
• 3:52
  readers? Well, it's not those people that
• 3:55
  want Doctor Who to be the most serious, tedious thing ever.
• 4:00
  Well. It's not just the readers of
• 4:02
  DWM. This was well received by press.
• 4:06
  Like across the boards, not just genre press. the AV Club gave it
• 4:10
  an A Paste Magazine gave it 10 out of 10.
• 4:13
  SFX Magazine five. TV Fanatic 5.
• 4:16
  Indie Wire A Plus. IGN 9.5.
• 4:19
  Pop Matters 9 out of 10. New York Magazine 5 and Radio
• 4:23
  Times 5. Rotten Tomatoes got a score of
• 4:26
  89%. So it's not just Doctor Who fans
• 4:28
  that love this, it is love across the board.
• 4:31
  I do know a few people that work for some of those publications,
• 4:34
  and they're all a load of cunts, you know?
• 4:36
  So who cares what those people think as well?
• 4:39
  Well, do you care what I think? I do waste always.
• 4:43
  Because I think this is the best time to chill.
• 4:45
  It's Doctor Who, especially in the modern series Of the modern
• 4:49
  series, definitely. OK.
• 4:50
  It's in. It's in my top five, but it's
• 4:53
  not my favorite. I think objectively, and I know
• 4:58
  we got into this last time, I know we got into this last time,
• 5:00
  But I think objectively it's the best directed, it's the best
• 5:04
  written, it's one of the best looking dog, two episodes.
• 5:08
  And then on top of that I've got a personal memory of loving it
• 5:13
  the first time it went out, which I get into, which always
• 5:16
  helps. And and I think because I hadn't
• 5:21
  been enjoying Series 9, which I'm sure is the discussion we'll
• 5:24
  get on to having this absolute diamond drop out of nowhere and
• 5:28
  surpass all expectations again just lifted it.
• 5:32
  This is, this is just incredible for me.
• 5:34
  And I know you. You say or you will say that
• 5:39
  this isn't one that you watch often, if at all, but I do.
• 5:43
  I will put this on. Now, it's probably one of the
• 5:45
  only ones from Series 9 that I will put on.
• 5:48
  I'll put them both on as well, but that's getting into spoilers
• 5:51
  for the next. Episode it's Yeah, I I This is
• 5:53
  one I revisit one of the Doctor Who stores I revisit the most
• 5:56
  from the new. Series.
• 5:57
  It's only why? Because it's a fantastic bit of
• 6:01
  Doctor Who and a fantastic bit of television.
• 6:03
  And I think there's a certain amount, as Luke said, of like,
• 6:06
  reliving that first moment and that reaction you have to an
• 6:09
  episode and just being like, oh wow, this is, this is new
• 6:13
  ground. This is Doctor Who doing
• 6:15
  something it hasn't done before. And showrunners often will that
• 6:19
  out as like, oh, we're doing something completely new.
• 6:21
  And it's like, oh, actually it's just the like the robots of
• 6:23
  death but with different robots or something.
• 6:25
  But this is, I cannot think of another Doctor Who episode like
• 6:28
  this and the themes that it deals with and like, It's a very
• 6:32
  layered story. I really want to get into all of
• 6:35
  that because I think I'm a little bit lost with what some
• 6:38
  of this episode is saying and what some of the symbolism is.
• 6:42
  And I think that's part of the problem for me.
• 6:44
  It's, I forgot to say I watched this and I watched Hell Bent,
• 6:47
  and we're recording both tonight.
• 6:49
  I said to you both earlier, I've had a bit of a surprise in one
• 6:51
  of them in a very positive direction, and that was Hell
• 6:54
  bent, which I actually quite enjoyed far more than I ever
• 6:59
  have before. But my unpleasant surprise was I
• 7:02
  found this to be fucking tedious to watch through again.
• 7:06
  Really very dull. Just a hell of a lot of man.
• 7:09
  But I felt like I was watching the entire season of Buffy
• 7:13
  Series 6 condensed into 50 minutes.
• 7:16
  That's not getting into spoilers, football.
• 7:18
  Oh, have you not watched that? I'm still not sorry.
• 7:21
  OK, well there's a lot of pain in Buffy Series 6.
• 7:24
  I'll say that at least. OK.
• 7:25
  Does she punch through a wall for 45 billion years or whatever
• 7:29
  it is? Well, she punches.
• 7:32
  No, I can't say Luke's right there.
• 7:34
  Look, I don't want to let him know, but I didn't want to just
• 7:37
  come on and do exactly what Luke did when we did.
• 7:40
  Spy For should just come on and a shit all over it with no great
• 7:44
  argument to to his name. I think it's just.
• 7:47
  Not, it's just. Not.
• 7:48
  It's just not. I just don't like it.
• 7:50
  I think it's pretty good arguments.
• 7:51
  In that so I spoke for a majority of the audience at that
• 7:56
  point I. Did instead was.
• 7:58
  I watched it this morning and I started live messaging my friend
• 8:02
  Nathan, who loves his to pieces. Yeah, and about 30.
• 8:06
  And he said to me, you're literally finding reasons not to
• 8:09
  like this. And I said no, no, I don't like
• 8:12
  this, That's the problem. And I'm trying to interrogate
• 8:15
  why I don't like this because I can see this is a well written
• 8:19
  piece of television. I can see this is an extremely
• 8:22
  well directed piece of television, brilliantly scored,
• 8:25
  excellently acted. So why doesn't this resonate
• 8:27
  with me emotionally, intellectually and on all those
• 8:30
  levels that I wanted to? Because everybody else loves it.
• 8:33
  So why don't I love it? Why?
• 8:35
  Why does this leave me completely empty watching it?
• 8:38
  And I came to some conclusions, but I'll sort of go into.
• 8:41
  This Are these issues with you or the OR the episode?
• 8:43
  I think they're with me. I think, I think, I certainly
• 8:46
  feel like the way this episode deals with grief is pretty
• 8:48
  appalling. And, you know, and Speaking of
• 8:51
  somebody is, I'm sure we've all dealt with grief in different
• 8:54
  ways. Well, we'll get into it.
• 8:57
  We'll get into it. But I just wanted to say, yeah,
• 8:59
  I'm not here just to say, oh, I don't like it because where's
• 9:02
  the fun in that when you two love it?
• 9:04
  But I'm going to offer an opposing viewpoint every now and
• 9:08
  again. But mostly give the stage to you
• 9:10
  guys because you love it, OK? Great.
• 9:13
  I mean if you ask me why I go back to it and watch it, it
• 9:17
  genuinely does set my pulse racing.
• 9:21
  And like as I remember the first time I watched it and as the
• 9:24
  sort of realisation hits towards the last 15 minutes and the
• 9:27
  music is astonishing in it that that really heard that just
• 9:33
  swims it by. I mean Capaldi is magnificent in
• 9:36
  it. I just think it's it's a
• 9:38
  brilliant, brilliant watch and never at all.
• 9:40
  I I can struggle with slow or sort of weirdly paced or things
• 9:48
  where you have to be patient. And I'd say some people would
• 9:51
  argue I've got to be patient with heavens and I do not find
• 9:54
  that at all here. And there's sort of emotional
• 9:56
  beats that that work. I mean, I think all the emotion
• 9:59
  works in this. And as I say, when I watched
• 10:01
  Series 9, I wasn't particularly fond of Clara.
• 10:03
  I wasn't particularly enjoying the show, but I still found
• 10:06
  myself coming out of this absolutely heart pounding, a
• 10:10
  standard emotion, thinking that is one of the best things I've
• 10:13
  ever seen. Yeah, me too.
• 10:15
  I in that last 15 minutes, when it suddenly starts to click
• 10:19
  what's happening, I stood up and applauded at my television the
• 10:23
  first time I saw it. I remember it.
• 10:25
  I was just I was jumping up and down.
• 10:27
  I thought. I genuinely felt, thought it was
• 10:29
  the best bit of Doctor Who I'd ever seen at the time.
• 10:31
  Our. Bypass started pulsing as well.
• 10:34
  I'm like, is that old man finally going to get out of that
• 10:36
  castle or go do something? Please.
• 10:39
  No, When we get into, I'll tell you my story of watching.
• 10:42
  It I can't wait. I was.
• 10:43
  I was in. He is with just absolute joy at
• 10:47
  the end of this episode. I have a story to tell to, but I
• 10:51
  feel, I feel like we're going to have a lot of time to tell
• 10:53
  stories because, you know. Nothing happens in it, that's.
• 10:56
  It is just someone dicking about in a.
• 10:58
  Castle, really, I will say no. Luke I do need to talk about a
• 11:02
  Buffy episode in this because I really want to compare this to a
• 11:06
  Buffy episode and there is spoiler in there, so you need to
• 11:09
  be warned for that. Which series?
• 11:11
  Series 5 have. You seen Series 5?
• 11:13
  Yeah, I'm halfway through, so I'm probably like an episode.
• 11:17
  Is it the big one that everyone knows?
• 11:19
  Like, yeah, OK. I don't know.
• 11:22
  It's an episode that deals with grief a million times better
• 11:25
  than this. Does.
• 11:26
  I've not seen the episode, so any pot details about that
• 11:28
  episode will be a spoiler, but I know what like the consequence
• 11:32
  of it. OK, good.
• 11:34
  Oh, we should watch it, shouldn't we?
• 11:36
  Yeah. Shall we?
• 11:37
  Let's get it on I. Don't want I've seen it before.
• 11:41
  I'm just going to prepare myself for the sheer level of brown.
• 11:44
  I'm going to watch in this episode because it is a very
• 11:47
  brown episode. OK.
• 11:49
  Well, some counts in. 5432 what? It's so weird when you two are
• 11:58
  so reverent about something. You're so polite.
• 12:03
  I mean I remember in the build up to this, like the weeks
• 12:06
  before this, this was already being talked about as it's
• 12:11
  experimental. It's like it's going to be a
• 12:14
  really one off. And then when the advanced
• 12:16
  spoiler free reviews came out, they were like you could just
• 12:20
  sense in the way they were written.
• 12:21
  It was like no, this really is fucking good.
• 12:23
  This is something special. So I was so excited for.
• 12:26
  That's quite shocking to start off with.
• 12:28
  Those bloody footprints on the path there.
• 12:31
  We never get blood in Doctor Who.
• 12:33
  Is. Well, you don't in the new
• 12:34
  series, do you? Not until he touches 2 cables to
• 12:37
  his head in half an hour's time and his book coming out on his
• 12:40
  head everywhere. Oh God, I thought Dylan was
• 12:43
  going to be frozen for four and a half billion years there.
• 12:46
  Are you still with us? I'm still with you.
• 12:49
  It's all gone terribly wrong already, it says.
• 12:53
  My Internet connection is unstable, much like Peter
• 12:55
  Capaldi and his grief. What did you think about Clara's
• 13:00
  death then? I am.
• 13:03
  It was one of those where I think at the time I cheered and
• 13:06
  now I sort of think. I sort of think like that was
• 13:09
  that was quite bad and I didn't really get the character
• 13:11
  properly bad, but but I also, like every other fan, knew that
• 13:15
  she had to be back because she was on the front cover of the
• 13:18
  team and she was in. That diner, wouldn't she?
• 13:20
  Yeah. So also, they were never going
• 13:23
  to write her out in episode 11, were they?
• 13:25
  It's just, it's just not what you do.
• 13:27
  Yeah, Or episode 10. Or whatever it is.
• 13:29
  It doesn't. It didn't.
• 13:30
  What do you think about killing them off and bringing them back
• 13:33
  a little bit later, don't they? It didn't have the impact, but
• 13:37
  the consequence of it has the impact because this is the
• 13:40
  consequence of it. I mean, I liked, I really like
• 13:42
  Face the Raven, by the way. I thought it was a cracking
• 13:44
  episode, but I did. I did find the the ending where
• 13:48
  Well, of course you did. If I liked it.
• 13:51
  Nothing happened, isn't it? She gave about 3 speeches before
• 13:54
  that bird came after. I mean, it's the slowest Raven
• 13:57
  on record. Yeah, but the good one is, is
• 13:59
  Capaldi's speech first. I'll go and get the Daleks and
• 14:01
  the Zygons and I'll bloody kill you, bitch.
• 14:06
  But that's what's weird. I felt something when he said
• 14:08
  all of that. And you know what?
• 14:10
  The second he was back with her in hell, Ben in that diner at
• 14:13
  the beginning of that, I felt something.
• 14:15
  Then I just felt nothing watching this.
• 14:18
  Really. We'll go, we'll get into the
• 14:20
  hell. I.
• 14:21
  Wonder if I think that is like poetry on screen.
• 14:24
  I wonder if it's because a lot of this is sort of symbolism and
• 14:27
  arty and maybe it's too intellectual for me.
• 14:30
  I don't know, maybe I just. There's no such thing do.
• 14:34
  You know what isn't symbolism? An Artie.
• 14:36
  There's fucking title sequence. Do you know what?
• 14:40
  Because do you remember this was a fan made title sequence on
• 14:42
  YouTube? Yeah, which is better than this
• 14:44
  version. I remember when they announced
• 14:46
  that that was going to be the title and I was absolutely
• 14:48
  buzzing. I thought it's the best thing
• 14:49
  I've ever seen and quite quickly into Series 8 I was thinking, oh
• 14:53
  shit, this is a mistake. Yeah, and the theme tune is just
• 14:57
  dreadful. I think that is the worst of
• 15:00
  bit. Like, the visuals are OK, but
• 15:02
  the theme tune is too tinny. If Murray Gold sticks around for
• 15:05
  Doctor Who for a long time, you should absolutely not be allowed
• 15:08
  to do another theme tune like he can do all the other music.
• 15:13
  Without the piano coming in, Oh. Yeah, yeah.
• 15:16
  It's new line though, isn't it? The best version of the theme.
• 15:19
  Not the not the closing one. It isn't.
• 15:21
  Not the one where it sounds like it's a.
• 15:27
  OK, can I can I ask you guys a question about the execution of
• 15:31
  this episode? Because I do think it's
• 15:33
  brilliantly directed, yes. But it is a bit visually drab,
• 15:38
  right? Like my it doesn't pop, My eyes
• 15:41
  aren't excited by what I'm saying.
• 15:42
  All I'm going is yes, that looks, that looks interesting,
• 15:46
  yes. I don't think it is Drab like I
• 15:49
  know, I know. There's no bloody colour in the.
• 15:51
  Screen. I know what you're saying about
• 15:52
  this. There's a lack of colour, yeah?
• 15:54
  There's a certain colour palette that there is, but it still
• 15:58
  looks visually impressive. This castle feels real.
• 16:00
  It still feels in the middle of nowhere.
• 16:02
  Can be impressive and drab at the same time.
• 16:05
  Yeah, but Doctor Who's always big colors and big bright colors
• 16:09
  and things like that. And this is something like it
• 16:10
  sets the tone and it sets the mood and and also what colour do
• 16:13
  you want? A fucking castle?
• 16:14
  They're made out of stone. I want it to be like Willy
• 16:17
  Wonka's palace. The one in Glasgow.
• 16:23
  Yeah, you know what I really didn't like was these horrible
• 16:25
  flies about them. I hate flies so much.
• 16:28
  I know that's the idea, isn't it?
• 16:30
  It's all about death, so straight away you're getting
• 16:33
  that. He's a bad taste in the mouth.
• 16:36
  I mean, props to Peter Capaldi literally talking to himself for
• 16:41
  an hour. And TomTom Baker would have
• 16:43
  loved this episode, didn't he? Yeah, he would.
• 16:46
  What? Other doctors do you think could
• 16:47
  have done this? Honestly, I like Capaldi stopped
• 16:50
  Like my favorite doctor, But I don't really think there's that
• 16:53
  many. I I really want to see it with
• 16:55
  Jon Pertwee. I don't know why.
• 16:58
  I just like the idea of him rubbing his neck and walking
• 17:01
  around the. Place I want to see him diving.
• 17:03
  Out of that window. How did I get out of that then,
• 17:05
  Joe? Surely you would like Colin in
• 17:07
  this because he'd just be over the top and talking to himself.
• 17:12
  I think Pop Colin could probably do it as well.
• 17:14
  I'd like to see Eccleston in it, just because I think he'd
• 17:16
  knocked down that wall with one punch.
• 17:20
  And. And McCoy wouldn't be grieving
• 17:22
  for Ace or anybody else would be.
• 17:23
  He'd just be like, yes, he is. Soup, yeah.
• 17:26
  He's just like, oh, love tomato soup.
• 17:28
  I do. What I will say is I think Peter
• 17:31
  Cooley is the best actor to have ever played the Doctor and this
• 17:34
  is a gift of an episode to him. Absolutely.
• 17:37
  He's he's earned this. He absolutely has.
• 17:40
  And there was. The original version was going
• 17:43
  to be him trapped in a bun in a house with a bunch of Weeping
• 17:45
  Angels. With that, I've tickled your
• 17:47
  tits a bit more, Joe. Maybe if it's the same sort of
• 17:50
  thing though possibly not though.
• 17:52
  I think. I think it would have been
• 17:53
  exactly the same thing, just with Weeping Angels.
• 17:55
  In my head, I always liked the idea of getting a Capaldi
• 17:59
  Christmas special in the snow with the Weeping Angels.
• 18:02
  It feels like it should have happened, but.
• 18:03
  Now you almost did in time with the Doctor.
• 18:05
  You know, there was a scene. Oh, yeah, Sorry.
• 18:09
  Yeah. Oh yeah.
• 18:10
  It was Matt Smith. Although he is, isn't I, so it's
• 18:13
  technically Capaldi's third Doctor Who episode to have the
• 18:16
  dog. Everything about that that veil
• 18:18
  creature right is great, apart from those big rubber hands.
• 18:22
  I think they're hilarious. I I have a problem with the
• 18:25
  veil. I I I think.
• 18:27
  I think it's a really badly executed costume and let's this
• 18:29
  whole episode down. It's it's mysterious.
• 18:32
  It's a wobbly person in a in a thing with big wobbly hands.
• 18:35
  And then there's a slit where you can clearly see the real
• 18:38
  actor is peeking out of this is. You can't, can you?
• 18:42
  I can't say it's ever crossed my mind.
• 18:44
  That the first time I saw it, I laughed at it.
• 18:48
  It's like it's just those enormous rubber hands again.
• 18:51
  Yeah, they didn't learn from the silence, did they, about having
• 18:55
  big dildo fingers. OK, so the doctors just
• 18:58
  telepathically spoke to a door, got the door to open, and then
• 19:02
  is presented by a brick wall. And I think we're going to talk
• 19:05
  about this episode reflecting dealing with depression.
• 19:09
  I think this is a really good example, an early on, quick
• 19:12
  example of that he manages to overcome a hurdle only to open
• 19:17
  that like the door, only to overcome the hurdle and hit a
• 19:20
  brick wall immediately. This is, yeah, sorry.
• 19:24
  Go on. No, I was just going to say,
• 19:25
  like, the whole thing is a metaphor for depression.
• 19:28
  At least that's what I read into it.
• 19:30
  Can I tell you? Can I, can I tell you my story a
• 19:32
  little bit now? Yeah, about where I was in my
• 19:35
  life when this happened. So around 20/12/2013, I was
• 19:39
  very, very depressed. Suicidally depressed.
• 19:42
  I'm fine now, but I was an absolute mess of a human being.
• 19:46
  And at the same time I fucking hated Doctor Who was shit.
• 19:50
  You know, Doctor Who was shit shit in in those years.
• 19:54
  And Series 9. No, this is no, this is.
• 19:57
  This is like Series 7, isn't it so?
• 20:00
  This is series 7 and the 50th and then series.
• 20:02
  Eight. I get it.
• 20:03
  Don't worry, I get it. I'm very depressed, not because
• 20:05
  of Doctor. Who doesn't help but?
• 20:07
  My favorite I'm not Ian Levine. I I had a lot of issues in my
• 20:12
  life that I needed to resolve. I was stuck in a dead end job
• 20:16
  that I didn't like. And then in 2014, in a a last
• 20:21
  bit attempt to get rid of this this depression, I quit my job
• 20:26
  like that and went to pursue a career in television and film.
• 20:30
  And I got a job emptying trucks for a living and event so I
• 20:34
  could just pick what work I did. I could pick my hours doing that
• 20:37
  and then do work for free or for no money on the side.
• 20:40
  And around 2015 things were starting to go well.
• 20:43
  And then this episode of .2 broadcast and I had to.
• 20:47
  I was sleeping all day because I was going to work all night and
• 20:50
  my my shift started at 11:00 at night and I got up to watch this
• 20:53
  and then to go back to bed. I couldn't go back to bed
• 20:56
  because I'm so fucking excited by how good this was.
• 20:59
  But Doctor Who had been getting better, my life had been getting
• 21:02
  better. And I suddenly saw within this
• 21:05
  episode, I was like, I immediately got the depression
• 21:08
  angle of it. And I was like, oh, this is this
• 21:12
  is what I've been going through the last few years of my life.
• 21:15
  And it was like, Doctor Who's better, I'm better.
• 21:18
  Life's great, smash the shit out of it.
• 21:20
  And so I That's why one of the reasons this holds a very
• 21:24
  special place in my heart. I I get that because I said not
• 21:30
  to steal your Thunder, That's and I didn't know any of that
• 21:33
  about you. So thanks for sharing it.
• 21:35
  My pleasure. And I think you're wonderful.
• 21:38
  I would like to add that. Yes.
• 21:39
  You are. Luke.
• 21:41
  Malloy's here as well, but you're wonderful.
• 21:45
  But I was talking the other day about Series 4 and when series
• 21:48
  four came out, that married with a particularly great period of
• 21:52
  my life and Doctor Who's great and your life's going great.
• 21:56
  It's the best feeling in the world, it.
• 21:58
  Is it? Is.
• 22:00
  I'm a bit worried that this new era is going to bring a lot to
• 22:02
  bring about my depression though.
• 22:03
  I have to see a Ruby Rd. That might be our constant fear,
• 22:08
  as Doctor Who fans, is that it really can affect your life.
• 22:11
  Do you know? Do you know what day this
• 22:14
  broadcast? I I would guess it was the 28th
• 22:19
  of November, something like that.
• 22:20
  The actual date, you know, I mean why was?
• 22:23
  A great question. No, my wedding day.
• 22:29
  This is my wedding day episode. This is probably why I don't
• 22:32
  care for it anymore. Did you watch it at the wedding?
• 22:35
  Did you make everybody stop? No, we actually watched it the
• 22:38
  next day. And my other half, who was a he
• 22:42
  watched the new series, but he was never a fan.
• 22:45
  Literally said to me that was the most boring thing I've ever
• 22:47
  seen. And I called off the
• 22:50
  relationship then. It lasted about a year after
• 22:53
  that. That's made me.
• 22:55
  That's made me really paranoid that I might yeah, watch out who
• 22:59
  might be broadcasting on the day.
• 23:00
  That's that I get married. But.
• 23:03
  You don't like the new era, so don't worry about it.
• 23:05
  You could miss it. It's fine.
• 23:06
  We can duck off to the to another room and watch Doctor
• 23:09
  Who. You did?
• 23:10
  Say duck off, right? I did.
• 23:12
  Yes. Yes.
• 23:12
  I'll be a married man by that point, Jack.
• 23:14
  Oh. When's I ever stopped anyone
• 23:16
  come? On I'll Save my story.
• 23:21
  It's no, it's not as heavy as secret those.
• 23:27
  I'll have a serious question for the two of you, and this isn't
• 23:31
  me just trying to find flaws. I want to know your answers to
• 23:33
  this question. Has Doctor Who in series 9 and
• 23:37
  in this episode in particular, forgotten that it's catering for
• 23:40
  kids? OK, right.
• 23:42
  One moment we will get to that question because we've just
• 23:45
  missed like 5 minutes of of having said I just want to pick
• 23:48
  up on a few things because I love that.
• 23:49
  I love that scene where he's in the bedroom and he gets a little
• 23:52
  eyeglass out and you can hear a bit like cast your valve, the
• 23:54
  music. Oh yeah, the music, Yeah.
• 23:56
  What is that? It's music, isn't it?
• 23:59
  It is brilliant. I know.
• 24:01
  Watched in it like it suddenly just jumps into action.
• 24:05
  When you're not expecting this episode of his action, it jumps
• 24:07
  out the window. And I was like, that's so cool,
• 24:10
  this whole sequence where he's calculating what he's going to
• 24:12
  do in a matter of a second, all in his head.
• 24:15
  This is far too. It's too Sherlock for me this.
• 24:18
  This is exactly how you think Doctor is working in his head.
• 24:23
  And yeah, it is Sherlock. He's clearly stole the concept
• 24:25
  from Sherlock. I find Sherlock pretentious, so
• 24:28
  I find this pretentious. I mean, you can't steal the
• 24:30
  concept if it's his though, right?
• 24:33
  Yeah. It's true.
• 24:34
  It's true. Will you answer my question now
• 24:35
  please? But I I just think this whole
• 24:38
  sequence of him jumping out the window is brilliant, exciting,
• 24:42
  clever and just a really fun way of of just keeping the episode
• 24:46
  alive. Oh, I love, I love it when he
• 24:48
  goes under the water and there's all those horrible skulls there.
• 24:52
  Yeah, all all of those skulls are based on Peter Capel, this
• 24:54
  skull, you know? Well, that's why.
• 24:56
  That's why they're so chilling, isn't he?
• 24:58
  But there's that, there's that shot where the the skull fades
• 25:01
  into his face as the light. It's like the last visual clue
• 25:05
  before you actually given the answer.
• 25:07
  You know that beating before the floods?
• 25:09
  I didn't even have to use makeup.
• 25:11
  I just put him up against the window.
• 25:12
  No, but the reason I ask you questions.
• 25:15
  About So have they? Have they forgotten the key?
• 25:16
  It's because this is a very dark, very serious season with
• 25:20
  very little light relief, with a a a sort of unusually dark
• 25:28
  relationship between Doctor and companion, which has been, you
• 25:31
  know, since Series 8 and Series 9.
• 25:33
  And now we're deep diving into grief.
• 25:37
  Well, I mean. Why do kids want to watch this?
• 25:40
  I tell you things of this, like specifically in Heaven Sent Way
• 25:44
  is that it's just a great episode of Doctor Two, and I
• 25:46
  think as a kid you just enjoy Doctor Two regardless.
• 25:49
  I mean you. Just want to watch this.
• 25:51
  Well, I mean. Midnight.
• 25:53
  It's a It's a dark episode, which was people talking on a
• 25:56
  bus. I remember enjoying that as a
• 25:57
  kid, and I think kids enjoyed that.
• 25:59
  You could say. I mean, Nicola says the Night of
• 26:01
  Terror is all fun and bouncy, but it's boring as shit.
• 26:04
  I'm going to bring in little girl who will ask her opinion.
• 26:07
  I I I don't think. I don't think if if a kid's
• 26:11
  already invest in Doctor Who, I don't think this is the episode
• 26:13
  that's going to sort of turn them off.
• 26:14
  I also think that Doctor Who was going out in a later time slot,
• 26:18
  that was something that was outside of the that's Moffett's
• 26:21
  control. Yeah, that's that's the BBC.
• 26:23
  Regardless of whether it's in Moffett's control or not, he's
• 26:26
  writing. For a later time slot, so he's
• 26:28
  writing it slightly more adult. I'm I'm going to sort of be
• 26:31
  slightly contradictory here. I don't think that Doctor Who at
• 26:35
  this time is for kids. I don't think Stephen Moffitt's
• 26:37
  ERA is for kids. I think he's purposely pissed
• 26:40
  pissing pitching it. Pissing on kids.
• 26:43
  He's pissing on kids. Yeah.
• 26:45
  I think he's pitching the show at an older audience, a sort of
• 26:49
  teenage to early 20s. You know, this is when Doctor
• 26:51
  Who starts getting bigger in America as well.
• 26:53
  And he's going after fans and the the the fact like, I don't
• 26:57
  mean fans of Doctor Who, but fans of genre and it is for
• 27:01
  15/16/17, eighteen 1920 year olds who love genre television.
• 27:07
  I do not think this series do you think?
• 27:09
  That's why though. Should you clear the kids out,
• 27:11
  Doctor Who? I think it made sense at the
• 27:13
  time because because the kids are grown with Doctor.
• 27:16
  Yeah, exactly. It's why in series 10 it makes
• 27:19
  sense to set it in a university, because most of the people that
• 27:22
  watch Series 123, well, at university, suddenly it was it
• 27:26
  was still there. But I think with 10 he brings it
• 27:28
  back down again. I feel like it is a bit more
• 27:31
  comic book, a bit a lot more fun, is a lot lighter.
• 27:35
  It's probably. It probably was by accident.
• 27:37
  Probably it didn't. Get tired?
• 27:38
  It absolutely was by accident, because that season shouldn't
• 27:41
  have existed. I also think that Doctor Who
• 27:44
  shouldn't aim itself as kids because kids don't watch
• 27:46
  television anymore. It should be aimed at an older
• 27:48
  audience, and I think the new version, regardless of what I
• 27:51
  may think of it, is still is aimed at older kids rather than
• 27:55
  like 7-8 year olds. 7-8 year olds are not watching Doctor
• 27:59
  Who. They're not watching television
• 28:00
  chasing that audience. It's why that.
• 28:02
  We know that as a fact, though. Yes, 100% kid kids watch T tube.
• 28:07
  And. Yeah, like my My nieces and
• 28:09
  nephews have no interest in sitting down and watching 45
• 28:13
  minutes of television. It's why Russell T Davis has
• 28:15
  said there won't wouldn't be a Sarah Jane style spin off in
• 28:18
  this tenure of Doctor Who because there isn't no audience
• 28:20
  for it. Chasing the child audience of
• 28:22
  Doctor Who is a way to get it cancelled at this point in the
• 28:24
  current television. I think, yeah, but this was
• 28:27
  already doing that. I think it's you that told me
• 28:30
  that at this point the BBC were as unhappy with what was being
• 28:34
  made for Doctor Who. The doctor that was in place,
• 28:37
  the content that was being produced.
• 28:38
  They effectively sacked the showrunner and the lead actor
• 28:42
  because they were so just clean. They didn't, shout the
• 28:44
  showrunner. OK, replaced.
• 28:46
  They tried to replace the showrunner.
• 28:48
  No he wants. No, he left.
• 28:50
  He wants it to be done. I mean, and I think, I think the
• 28:54
  BB CS criticism of it came from, oh, it's not the Doctor Who from
• 28:57
  five years ago. Rather than trying to make it
• 28:59
  evolve. Because I can see why an adult
• 29:01
  would like this. You know, it is very arty and it
• 29:04
  is very symbolic and it is very thoughtful.
• 29:08
  I personally just don't think you should ever, ever cut out
• 29:11
  that audience. I think it is coming out, though
• 29:14
  I think it's still quite a fun, exciting mystery and action
• 29:17
  romp, you think? This is fast and fun.
• 29:21
  I think there's action in it that I would have liked as a kid
• 29:24
  to jump out the window. They went around the castle, the
• 29:26
  veil constantly, Jason. And I think the kids would have
• 29:29
  loved the opening 2 parter with the Daleks.
• 29:32
  I think they probably like the Zygons.
• 29:33
  I think they probably like the Shield, the two parter.
• 29:36
  It's just trying different things.
• 29:37
  And also Doctor Who's been back for a decade plus at this point,
• 29:41
  and it's earned its place for people to go.
• 29:45
  Oh, you know, we can do something experimental with this
• 29:48
  slot on a Saturday night. It doesn't have to be the the
• 29:51
  big fun adventure show with the all the bells and whistles of,
• 29:55
  say, the Star Beast or Ruby Rd. It it can be.
• 30:02
  We've had that conversation as well about things being
• 30:04
  experimental, and that's fine, but just because something is
• 30:07
  experimental, it doesn't mean it's good.
• 30:09
  No, it doesn't mean. It's just means it's different.
• 30:11
  Yeah, this is good. But this is good.
• 30:13
  Yeah. And and it's people aren't.
• 30:16
  Stephen I think, I think the point, sorry, the point I'm
• 30:19
  trying to make is I think this is very good television.
• 30:21
  I just don't think it's very good.
• 30:22
  Doctor Who, I think. It's great Doctor Who, but
• 30:25
  Stephen Moffett has said. Stephen Moffett has said we need
• 30:29
  to stop pretending that people don't come back week on week.
• 30:32
  If this episode isn't for you, it doesn't matter, because next
• 30:35
  week is a big, sprawling Gallifrey epic.
• 30:37
  And then you tune in a few weeks later and you've got that
• 30:40
  interminable shy. Christmas I absolutely.
• 30:44
  Love that, but there you go. That's the ultimate.
• 30:47
  Refreshment. No one's walking away from
• 30:49
  Doctor Who after this ago, and this is the worst bit of
• 30:51
  television I've ever seen. I'm never.
• 30:52
  Watching I I I I got. In the right direction though,
• 30:56
  didn't I? When the once we got this season
• 31:00
  out of the way, things started picking up, didn't they?
• 31:02
  Numbers wise, No. No, no.
• 31:05
  Doctor Who ratings only do well when the BBC do a big promo
• 31:10
  launch, you know. I was at a party with and I
• 31:13
  speak to a girl who who just joined our work and she asked me
• 31:17
  about Doctor Who. She asked me what my favorite
• 31:19
  episode was and I said this and she was said this was the one
• 31:22
  that made me stop watching. But she's weird.
• 31:28
  She's weird. I think this is the sort of
• 31:31
  Doctor Who you could show people, you know, they always
• 31:34
  say, Oh no, you you wouldn't want someone to walk in or what,
• 31:37
  but you could. It's a very respectable piece of
• 31:40
  television, you know. I'd showed them something a bit
• 31:43
  less incense because I don't think I don't something well,
• 31:48
  just. Fun.
• 31:48
  You mean something? I don't know.
• 31:50
  I don't think this is very reflective of Doctor Who as a
• 31:52
  whole. It's a one off, isn't it?
• 31:54
  Sorry. OK, I'm going to shut up.
• 31:58
  You guys say nice things. OK, well I'll tell you my story
• 32:01
  because obviously I was very excited for this episode.
• 32:03
  There's there's there's spoiler, free reviews and hyped it up.
• 32:06
  And then days before as I find out that Rachel's sister and
• 32:10
  husband are coming up and we're going out all night and I'm
• 32:13
  thinking, oh fuck, but that's the night, the most best episode
• 32:17
  of Doctor whoever it's going to be on so.
• 32:20
  No. No, no, We go around Leeds
• 32:22
  Christmas Market. So I'm, you know, I'm being
• 32:24
  bought mulled wine and expensive pies and yeah, it's nice, but in
• 32:28
  the back of my head, I'm looking at my phone.
• 32:30
  It's 8:05 PM and I'm like, oh, it started the the one you had
• 32:34
  to watch that I'm not watching and everyone else's.
• 32:38
  And then 9:00 it finishes. Mate, my phone's on airplane
• 32:41
  mode. Just wouldn't.
• 32:42
  Wouldn't touch it. 10:00. There's still half 12.
• 32:46
  We're drinking. So it's 2:30 in the morning when
• 32:49
  when we're watching it? Well, when I'm watching it,
• 32:51
  Rachel's asleep next to me and I've got my laptop open and I
• 32:55
  didn't know anything about it. And I press play and honestly,
• 32:58
  that 55 minutes, it felt like it was Doctor for me and nobody
• 33:03
  else. Like it was going down.
• 33:04
  It was no one else. Was watching it at that point.
• 33:06
  It felt like it was going out live at 2:00 PM and I was
• 33:10
  watching it and they made it for me and and I mean when the
• 33:15
  doctor falls to the floor and declares he's been there for
• 33:17
  like 7000 years and the penny drops and you just see all these
• 33:21
  clues finally my jaw are just proper hit the floor and that
• 33:27
  was that was just a true Doctor Who Hi.
• 33:29
  And then when it finishes and it's joyous, I woke up Rachel.
• 33:32
  I was obliged to tell her what just happened, so she told me to
• 33:36
  piss off and. Go fuck off, Luke.
• 33:41
  Go on. 2:30 in the morning blissed out on mold wine.
• 33:44
  I mean, this must have felt like a fever dream watching this it.
• 33:47
  Was just and I just couldn't wait to wake up and watch it
• 33:49
  again. It's the very first thing I did.
• 33:52
  Just a laptop, open bank, get it on again.
• 33:55
  It's just the best thing I'd ever seen.
• 33:58
  It must be me, I agree. It must be me.
• 34:03
  I just don't. Get it?
• 34:04
  And you would think an episode that's almost so reliant on A
• 34:07
  twist, the Doctor just being 3D printed again and again should
• 34:11
  sort of lose its rewatch ability.
• 34:14
  But I do think there's probably something in the fact that it's
• 34:17
  dealing with such themes and doing it so well that you can
• 34:20
  recognize different parts that work on each occasion, and you
• 34:24
  could sort of put different pieces of the puzzle together on
• 34:26
  different creation. Can I just say if, if, if it is
• 34:30
  true that like Capaldi was almost out at this point?
• 34:35
  Yeah, technically Capaldi was almost out.
• 34:38
  He was technically fired. He had no, like he didn't have
• 34:43
  to deliver this performance. It could have been going on
• 34:46
  phone this year. I'm just going to phone it in.
• 34:49
  I don't think he was stood there going, oh, I've been fired when
• 34:53
  he was doing this. My understanding is at the end
• 34:56
  of the Christmas special that was supposed to be Moffett's
• 35:00
  last hurrah, they didn't know what they were doing next and
• 35:03
  that involved, you know, the conversation within the BBC very
• 35:06
  much at least was Capaldi's gone.
• 35:09
  We don't want Capaldi anymore, so I don't think he would have
• 35:12
  known until afterwards. I don't think it's the sort of
• 35:14
  thing you tell your leading actor on the set.
• 35:18
  And and here's this massively arty script.
• 35:20
  Off you go. But.
• 35:22
  Also the. Best performance of a doctor
• 35:24
  ever? He's both a professional and a
• 35:26
  fan, so he comes back in Series 10 and gives some great
• 35:29
  performances. Well, I mean, you've only got to
• 35:31
  see what a professional he is in how his decorum since he's left.
• 35:36
  If if all of that is true, then since he left the park, he's
• 35:39
  been extremely polite about it. Although you can sense the CD.
• 35:46
  There's no Ecclestone though, is it?
• 35:48
  It's like Zach Russell. T Davis.
• 35:52
  Zack Steven Moffett Oh no, he's not doing it anymore, is he?
• 35:55
  Or is he? Yeah, he'll be back.
• 35:58
  It's what? Like all the clues in this.
• 36:00
  It's one of those Moffett things where once you know it, you're
• 36:03
  like, how did my brain not see that?
• 36:06
  I mean, the clothes by the fireplace is so it's it's almost
• 36:10
  so brave to put it there because it should be given.
• 36:12
  Too obvious in a way. So yeah, but he does do that
• 36:15
  with quite a lot of his twists. Can I talk about the body now?
• 36:18
  Very quickly, yeah. The Buffy episode The Body.
• 36:23
  So sorry, Luke. Joyce Summers dies and Buffy
• 36:28
  finds her dead on the sofa. And the next episode along,
• 36:31
  yeah, is the most exceptional handling of the emptiness of
• 36:38
  what happens after you lose somebody that I've ever seen.
• 36:40
  Because it's it is an episode devoid of drama and structure,
• 36:46
  and it is just those people dealing with the emotions that
• 36:48
  they're feeling and and the emptiness and the nothing that
• 36:52
  happens. Yeah, that to me, that's how I
• 36:54
  felt when I lost my mum. Absolutely empty.
• 36:57
  Useless. I didn't know what to do with
• 36:59
  myself. All I had was that outpouring of
• 37:02
  grief. I wasn't in a puzzle box.
• 37:04
  I wasn't going around being witty and jumping out of windows
• 37:08
  and all of this. And I know we're dealing with,
• 37:12
  however, old Time Lord, dealing with grief in this, who deals
• 37:15
  with things in different ways. But this, to me, this does not
• 37:18
  feel like grief. I mean, you say that it may not
• 37:24
  deal feel like your sort of grief and that's not to and.
• 37:26
  That's what I'm saying. And that's the that's the only
• 37:29
  way. That's the only eyes I can see
• 37:30
  through. I I had a conversation with a
• 37:32
  Doctor Who found in a pub a couple of years ago.
• 37:35
  I think it was. And he talks about exactly the
• 37:38
  same thing about losing his mum and this episode and grief.
• 37:42
  And he was like, that episode perfectly encapsulates how I
• 37:46
  felt about about losing my mum and the grief that he was.
• 37:49
  I mean that's. Great.
• 37:50
  Later I I I would say Hell Bent taps more into the grief.
• 37:56
  I felt that sort of fury and I'm going to tear down everything
• 38:00
  because I'm so angry that I've lost that person.
• 38:03
  Whereas all of this cleverness, all of this pretension, I don't
• 38:08
  know, it feels like it's just trying a bit too hard.
• 38:11
  I think this is clever, but I don't think it's pretentious.
• 38:14
  No, I don't either I. Would and I think and I think
• 38:16
  the difference maybe I mean I. Don't think the Doctor saying,
• 38:19
  oh, I'm now going to tell you very cleverly how I did that
• 38:22
  isn't pretentious. Yeah, but then he looks at the
• 38:24
  camera as and he goes, I don't know, it's a joke.
• 38:30
  He looks at the camera at one point and goes.
• 38:32
  I'm nothing without an audience as well.
• 38:34
  Wow. Exactly.
• 38:35
  Pretentious, I would say. I think a Muffy knows how to
• 38:38
  write a script without being pretentious of all.
• 38:40
  This I don't think. I don't think he's pretentious
• 38:43
  at all. I find Russell too dangerous.
• 38:45
  Is writing a lot more pretentious than this?
• 38:46
  Absolutely. Just more fun.
• 38:48
  But I would say that that obviously not seeing the Buffy
• 38:51
  episode that that is, that is I took my earphone out for most of
• 38:56
  that, but I obviously not seeing it.
• 38:59
  I think that is, it's extraordinary going straight
• 39:02
  into dealing with it. Whereas this is a Doctor episode
• 39:05
  laced with depression and grief in it, but like you can still
• 39:11
  enjoy it without it. It's still just a romp round the
• 39:13
  castle without it do. You know what unkind thought I
• 39:16
  had was, oh, actually, maybe Time flight did do it better.
• 39:20
  Because what you have to do in life is just fucking get on with
• 39:22
  your life, you know, and deal with the grief at the same time.
• 39:26
  I was, I was in the early stages of being a manager and I
• 39:28
  couldn't walk away from that. I just lost my mum, but I just
• 39:31
  had to get on with it, you know? I couldn't spend 4 billion years
• 39:34
  punching a diamond wall. Very true, Very true.
• 39:39
  I just need to go back to the veil.
• 39:41
  When it came in the room, then it looked like a bunch of kids
• 39:44
  in a Mac. You know, on top of each other's
• 39:46
  shoulders. I really like it it.
• 39:49
  Really takes me out of the episode.
• 39:52
  There's that's my only issue really with the episode.
• 39:55
  That, and I don't understand why the room with the wall doesn't
• 39:58
  reset, but we'll forget about that.
• 40:00
  Can I say something really nice? Do you remember?
• 40:02
  Sorry, do you remember Stephen Moffitt's column in Doctor Who
• 40:06
  Magazine where I explained all the bits of having sent that
• 40:09
  people have problems with? No, I didn't.
• 40:11
  Yeah, it's a whole column because I haven't got it on me.
• 40:15
  But we can find it because he goes round the castle naked the
• 40:18
  first time round the Doctor because he loses his clothes
• 40:22
  jumping in the water. And we don't.
• 40:24
  We just don't see it. Yeah.
• 40:26
  So from then on his neck, because this is like the, you
• 40:28
  know, five thousandth doctors to go around the castle or
• 40:31
  something, but he there's definitely a reason why Room 12
• 40:35
  doesn't reset that. Interesting.
• 40:38
  You know, do me a favour, will you?
• 40:39
  Will you find that article? Read it?
• 40:42
  Yeah. If I do an audio recording of it
• 40:44
  and I'll beam you in like William Hartnell.
• 40:46
  OK. Into the episode.
• 40:49
  Yeah, I mean that. Look at that shot there with a
• 40:52
  light coming through the window while he's eating at the table.
• 40:54
  I don't know what it is. There's something about this,
• 40:56
  the soup dropping from this spoon in Slow MO, that really
• 40:59
  captures the eternity of that castle.
• 41:01
  Well, there's soup in Hell Bent as well, isn't there?
• 41:03
  There's a lot of symbolism around soup.
• 41:05
  This doctor loves soup. I'm going through my my soup era
• 41:08
  At the moment. I'm eating a lot of soup, so you
• 41:10
  know. Can I ask what your soup of
• 41:11
  choices didn't? I like a French onion.
• 41:15
  All your. Flavours.
• 41:16
  Stink. I like Malaga, Tony.
• 41:19
  I I like a Muggle. A Muggle.
• 41:22
  Luke, what's your soup? I honestly fucking love tomato
• 41:26
  and basil with black pepper and cheese in it.
• 41:30
  I'm there with you, but I'm there.
• 41:31
  I just want the highest tomato soup with a cheese sandwich.
• 41:34
  Yes, I just honestly love tomato soup.
• 41:37
  It's great. I want to have lunch with you 2.
• 41:39
  That's my size. It's a cheap lunch.
• 41:44
  No, the nice thing I wanted to say, because I can't say nice
• 41:47
  things is are just the locations I've chosen for this are
• 41:50
  extraordinary. There was a shot a minute ago in
• 41:53
  that church, you know, all like it was a high angle shot and you
• 41:57
  just saw that extraordinary room inside that church.
• 42:01
  Fabulous. Have you been to any?
• 42:03
  No. What?
• 42:03
  Churches. Have you been to any of these
• 42:05
  locations? No.
• 42:06
  I, I we went to go to the Heavens and castle and by
• 42:11
  accident went to the wrong castle and we no, genuinely, we
• 42:15
  went to the one from Nightmare and Silver and it was wow, no.
• 42:20
  But this is this was filmed over like two or three castles I
• 42:23
  think a little bits in Cardiff. A little bits in Caerphilly.
• 42:27
  But yeah, we ended up in in Warwick Davis's Hedgewick's
• 42:31
  World of Wonders. Gutted.
• 42:34
  I mean, I mean that episode, my arguments out the window,
• 42:37
  because that episode is geared for kids and it's terrible.
• 42:42
  What's the bird thing all about? It's a reminder.
• 42:46
  It's a hell of a bird. It's a reminder.
• 42:49
  Himself of the story. Of the story about a bird that
• 42:51
  knocks down the dying mountain, because that's what he's going
• 42:54
  to have to do. Why does he need a reminder?
• 42:57
  Because he's not yet figured it out that that's that's what's
• 43:00
  going to happen to him. But what's going to happen to
• 43:03
  him? When he dies, he writes bird in
• 43:05
  the sand and then burns up so that his next one will see the
• 43:08
  bird in the sand At the right moment.
• 43:10
  Remember the story of the bird knocking down the Diamond
• 43:13
  Mountain so he then has to start knocking down the diamond wall.
• 43:15
  I thought there was some sort of metaphor I was missing.
• 43:18
  It's just because the birds in the story, yeah.
• 43:20
  Yeah, but the bird. The bird is a metaphor for him.
• 43:24
  I'm not sure I was paying attention at this point.
• 43:25
  If I want this, I mean, and let's put in a minute when they
• 43:30
  go outside the castle and there's all the stars in the
• 43:32
  sky. Oh, that looks lovely as well.
• 43:35
  The whole I was like getting through the door and being
• 43:38
  presented by brick wall, not being able to get through doors,
• 43:41
  doors of the mind. That is like a big thing in
• 43:43
  this. And I think the castle itself
• 43:46
  is, is the brain, isn't it? It's nonsensical.
• 43:50
  It's where the cogs turn, rooms reset.
• 43:53
  You can't stay in one place for too long.
• 43:55
  It's all sort of a metaphor for the brain, especially the brain,
• 43:59
  jaw and depression. So that is all at play.
• 44:03
  Who? Who's put him in there?
• 44:06
  The Time Lords. The Time Lords.
• 44:08
  Do we? Know that?
• 44:09
  Yeah, we do, I think. Yeah, because it happens in
• 44:15
  hell. In Hell Bent, he talk.
• 44:16
  They talk about right at the beginning about their their
• 44:18
  needing to put in there to know what he knows about the hybrid.
• 44:21
  Yeah, because he the only reason he's not telling the the secret
• 44:25
  of the hybrid is so he can get out to Gallifrey to steal an
• 44:30
  extraction chamber to save Clara.
• 44:31
  I can't wait for you all to explain to me what the hell the
• 44:34
  hybrid was all about. I'm still very confused about
• 44:37
  that. I like the hybrid.
• 44:40
  We'll come to that in the next. Episode one for intellectuals.
• 44:43
  Oh well, all about them. Now of course technically this
• 44:48
  is the Doctor Who story with the most amount of doctors in as a
• 44:51
  multi doctor story, but there's about 400 of them in this
• 44:56
  episode. Oh, come on, Dylan.
• 44:59
  And that thing was coming up behind you.
• 45:00
  It'd be chilling. It looks like it looks like a
• 45:03
  Dick in a sheet. The thing that really makes it
• 45:07
  work is the flies. The flies.
• 45:09
  Are cool. It's just so wobbly.
• 45:14
  Well, it's stopped though. Still, you know.
• 45:17
  No, but it's just it's there's always something that let's an
• 45:20
  episode adopt. It's this.
• 45:23
  I'd like to point out at this juncture this is the same
• 45:26
  director as the Star Beast at Mr. Dylan Reece.
• 45:29
  Yes, yeah. Both both brilliant in Doctor
• 45:31
  Who episodes. But I'll say once more, gear
• 45:34
  towards children wouldn't. You.
• 45:36
  Yes, I would say once. But she's also she directed
• 45:38
  Death in Heaven. She directed twice upon a time
• 45:42
  the Doctor falls. She does like a filter though,
• 45:45
  doesn't she? Because she uses that ghastly
• 45:46
  filter in the Death in Heaven graveyard sequences, doesn't
• 45:50
  she? Oh yeah.
• 45:51
  Yeah, there's definitely one in The Doctor Falls.
• 45:52
  Although everyone talks about how good word nothing time is,
• 45:56
  Doctor Falls is a better episode.
• 45:58
  There's my. There's.
• 45:59
  My well, we'll we'll reconvene for that one, but.
• 46:02
  Capaldi zapping bombs from the ground again, Amazing.
• 46:06
  It's one of the best moments in Doctor Who.
• 46:08
  I think it's. Peak Doctor Who?
• 46:10
  Peak Doctor Who, yeah. I think as a whole, that's one
• 46:12
  of the best Doctor Who stories ever.
• 46:14
  The two episodes together. Me too.
• 46:15
  Me. Too.
• 46:17
  I could all agree on that, I heard.
• 46:19
  Someone I heard someone the other day describe it as.
• 46:22
  Oh, it's nice when Doctor Who doesn't do do Fan Wank talked
• 46:25
  about that episode and like there's 2 masters, 3 versions of
• 46:29
  the Cybermen. Oh, Luke, that's what.
• 46:33
  I've just reminded me of something.
• 46:35
  Sorry. Well, it's because it ties into
• 46:38
  something that you said in The Spy full about not liking the
• 46:43
  angle they were taking with Jodie's doctor, Yeah.
• 46:47
  I I don't think it was done. I mean, I just didn't like
• 46:50
  Jodie's doctor. It wasn't an angle.
• 46:52
  There was no angles. But.
• 46:54
  And what? What?
• 46:55
  The reason why I love Jodie's doctor so much, and I find it so
• 46:58
  refreshing, is because I was just so sick to death of all
• 47:00
  this fucking man pain that we're doing all the time.
• 47:03
  It's so bloody tedious. I get that because when you look
• 47:07
  at series 8:00 and 9:00 as a whole from afar, you're just
• 47:10
  like they're a bit. Over yourself, but just have
• 47:12
  some adventures. But if you actually go into the
• 47:14
  individual episodes, they're never as bad as what you think
• 47:17
  the series is as a. Whole.
• 47:18
  But taken as a whole, it's a lot.
• 47:21
  It feels like on the surface, I'd say.
• 47:25
  Oh, thoughts on the Sonic specs, people?
• 47:28
  That's fine. I mean, a Sonic screwdriver is a
• 47:30
  stupid idea anyway, so why not? Sonic specs the things that.
• 47:34
  But at the same time, I hate those fucking Maverty gloves in
• 47:37
  Ruby Rd. So I fucking hate the Maverty
• 47:39
  gloves but when when he slaps them on his face and which is
• 47:42
  familiar and goes ah, Claudette thought about word, I was like
• 47:46
  this is amazing. So to find out that everyone
• 47:49
  hated them, I was shocked. The specs.
• 47:51
  The tank, The guitar. Oh, that was brilliant.
• 47:54
  Midlife crisis doctor. Oh yeah, where's his fucking
• 47:59
  sports car? You know, shaped like a penis.
• 48:03
  I love the design of this wall and that we've just missed it,
• 48:07
  that corridor as they as as he walked towards it.
• 48:10
  So what's the metaphor here though?
• 48:12
  What's the Wall all about? Well, it's about, it's about
• 48:15
  battling through, isn't it? On a.
• 48:17
  Very basic level. It's just about, yeah, battling
• 48:21
  your depression, something that you can never defeat, that
• 48:24
  eventually gets defeated. Yeah, you break on through to
• 48:27
  the. And that's how it feels,
• 48:29
  painfully punching through a wall that's never going to
• 48:31
  break. Yeah.
• 48:33
  Although he does. Punch a spell, Depression.
• 48:35
  But I can't tell you this wasn't how I got out of it.
• 48:38
  Well, that's why it's a metaphor, Joe.
• 48:41
  Yeah, but it wasn't even the Met.
• 48:43
  You know the the equivalent of the metaphor of this.
• 48:46
  He does punch in some weird places though, because like, he
• 48:49
  has this whole ring around. What do you think?
• 48:52
  Cut yourself some millions of years off and just punch?
• 48:55
  You know, in a straight. Line.
• 48:58
  I don't know why I didn't go back for that spade.
• 49:00
  Yeah, I've heard, I've heard that criticism, Moffett said in
• 49:04
  DWM Colin. The spade resets.
• 49:07
  Right, of course. Is that Jenna Louise Coleman or
• 49:10
  is that Jenna Louise Coleman standing it?
• 49:12
  Is her. Everybody said, oh, it's not
• 49:14
  her. You can tell it's someone in a
• 49:16
  wig. And it's like, no, it's actually
• 49:17
  her. So at this moment, watching it
• 49:20
  the first time, I still didn't know what was going on.
• 49:22
  I still hadn't clicked what was going on.
• 49:25
  It it takes AI think. For me, it took like AI was
• 49:28
  like, oh, that's interesting that it's repeating and then all
• 49:31
  of a sudden I'm like, hang on, he said.
• 49:32
  A different amount of years is that I'm a oh that that I
• 49:36
  remember that thought process. Yeah, it was the so the bit on
• 49:38
  the floor where he says when I first got here 7000 years ago, I
• 49:43
  remember my blood drilling cold but not still not really knowing
• 49:46
  why this this was the and then yeah, it is that look at the
• 49:50
  stars 10 billion years into future.
• 49:52
  Or am I missing something? What?
• 49:54
  What's going on? What do you mean?
• 49:58
  Well, you say, I didn't realise what was going on, so you
• 50:00
  reached a revelation of something going on.
• 50:02
  What was going on? We're not that bit, yeah.
• 50:06
  No, but explain. It to me it's the bit when he
• 50:08
  realizes that he's got to kill himself over and over and over
• 50:10
  again to create the new one too. And you.
• 50:13
  He gets there before the audience does.
• 50:15
  Yeah. And what I know he's been doing
• 50:18
  this for an awfully long. Time, yeah.
• 50:19
  This is him getting here before the audience knows and clarity
• 50:23
  on them. You can fucking do this.
• 50:26
  Yeah. And he just that little bit of
• 50:27
  help, a little bit of extra extra push that he needs.
• 50:32
  And I remember people hated this because it ruined the fact it
• 50:35
  was a one under. This is a great scene.
• 50:38
  I would not take this out in a million years.
• 50:39
  Yeah, me neither. Get off your ass and win.
• 50:43
  Is it? And that's use of arson, Doctor
• 50:45
  Who? I don't know.
• 50:47
  But which is familiar. A bitch in it, didn't it?
• 50:49
  Yeah. Yeah, but kill the moon, Kill
• 50:52
  the moon had bloody, didn't it? I think we had a bloody before,
• 50:55
  didn't we? And we.
• 50:57
  Had to kill the mean. I'm on the bloody moon.
• 51:01
  You left me there on the man. You could.
• 51:06
  He would if he could. He was.
• 51:08
  I mean, he's pushing the time slot, You know, he's almost at
• 51:11
  9:00. But I'm sure I remember them
• 51:14
  saying they had to check with the BBC that they could use as
• 51:17
  much blood as they did and that plays into the later time slot
• 51:20
  I. Think I'm trying to.
• 51:21
  This is the only one there where I remember blood.
• 51:24
  I remember seeing the blood beginning.
• 51:26
  Oh, that's quite out there for Doctor.
• 51:28
  When? When it's on his hands and
• 51:30
  knuckles and. Yeah, not for season 22, isn't.
• 51:34
  No, no, people. People need to get out over that
• 51:36
  by now. I love.
• 51:37
  It. I love it.
• 51:41
  In the last of the Time Lords, the Master has the tiniest bit
• 51:44
  of blood on his shirt and Russell T Davis and Phil
• 51:47
  Collinson said that they really are denied about whether to have
• 51:50
  any blood at all and whether to, like use a space gun or
• 51:54
  something to shoot him. But it made it all the more
• 51:57
  real, because if you get shot at your stomach like the master
• 52:00
  does, you should see Reservoir Dogs.
• 52:02
  And compared to yes. I figured that's why they put
• 52:05
  Lucy in that red dress, you know that with the gun.
• 52:09
  That was sort of the. Yeah, it's definitely there.
• 52:12
  But she's also like a trophy wife, isn't she?
• 52:14
  Then then manages to snap out of it.
• 52:19
  I mean I also. Like, punch in that wall, folks.
• 52:22
  I. Also like the the solution to
• 52:24
  the problem is just punching the wall.
• 52:26
  Yeah. I think in a series where
• 52:28
  there's been quite a lot of speeches and things like that,
• 52:31
  the fact that he literally just has to do this again and again,
• 52:33
  you think? Violence is the answer, Luke
• 52:36
  Malloy. Oh yeah, I love it when the
• 52:37
  doctor punches someone. Why do you think everyone?
• 52:39
  Come here then. I'll disagree with you.
• 52:41
  Come on. I think everyone likes season 13
• 52:43
  because Tom Baker goes around and punches every fucker in the
• 52:45
  face. Oh yeah, he gasps.
• 52:46
  He gasps the guy in the brain of Mobius.
• 52:49
  He twists Corby's. Yeah, that chauffeur he punches
• 52:53
  right over a quarry doesn't. He yeah, he's this punching in
• 52:56
  Planet of Evil. Everyone loves it.
• 52:59
  Yeah, powering down folks, powering down and.
• 53:02
  And Jon Pertwee does it all with karate, doesn't he?
• 53:06
  People think it's fine because it's got a different name, yeah.
• 53:10
  Yeah. A Spacey name.
• 53:12
  I I will say one thing for the last 15 minutes.
• 53:15
  The editing is out of this word. It's 100% the way to doctor.
• 53:20
  It tells the story and it it gains momentum, is well, I I say
• 53:28
  extraordinary a lot, but it is extraordinary.
• 53:30
  And it it is that that Maury's music underneath it, the
• 53:34
  Shepherd's boy, astonishing that was the one out of them all in
• 53:39
  that concert, when they when they did the TV version of the
• 53:42
  concert in September and they took the Shepherd's Boy out,
• 53:44
  that was the biggest crime of it all.
• 53:48
  Look at his face. Oh, that's costly.
• 53:52
  I think Pete Capaldi is the only actor to play the Doctor that
• 53:54
  when he died, he actually looks like he's died.
• 53:58
  Does he do the Jon perk, we think, and put his leg up in the
• 54:00
  air? When when he's on the floor of
• 54:04
  the TARDIS in the Memory Palace in a minute and his eyes go in
• 54:07
  the back of his head, you think fuck.
• 54:10
  I I I also feel a bit sorry for basic about it here, because
• 54:12
  it's not going to be a pleasant experience crawling up that
• 54:15
  those stairs, even as an actor. You see him crawling up those
• 54:19
  stairs there? That's me watching this episode.
• 54:21
  Oh, when will I get to the top? See that that shot of his hand
• 54:26
  though, with the all the blood in the like that makes me feel
• 54:29
  the bit. Oh, that's horrible.
• 54:31
  So it is, it is tough. But the fact I mean this only
• 54:35
  adds to the solution though that it's such a hard grilling thing
• 54:38
  to do and he does it an infinite amount of times.
• 54:41
  You remember when you, you remember when Rachel tallely
• 54:44
  said that, you know, Moffett's scripts were unfilmable and she
• 54:47
  used to have to beat them into shape to try to try and get them
• 54:50
  filmed. No, that's a genuine quote, she
• 54:52
  said. I'm wondering if this was one of
• 54:54
  them, you know, she goes, oh, don't worry, we'll sort it all
• 54:56
  out with the visuals, all right? We'll make it look great.
• 54:59
  Yeah, but it's not. It's not saying I'm filmable in
• 55:00
  a negative way. It's in a oh, that's brilliant.
• 55:04
  How do we do? This.
• 55:05
  Yeah, it. Depends how you read it, really,
• 55:07
  isn't it? Well, she's worked with him many
• 55:09
  times since so. I bet she didn't have that
• 55:12
  problem with the star base. She was like, oh, we just need a
• 55:14
  car park and a shit CGI. Can we do the star base next,
• 55:20
  please? Absolutely.
• 55:21
  Absolutely. I want Dylan to be the horrible
• 55:24
  one. Now also the use of blood,
• 55:28
  really. It is shocking, like you were
• 55:30
  saying, Luke, but I think it's it's part of the episode and
• 55:34
  that's what's the IT. It makes it more shocking
• 55:36
  because you're going, your brain's going.
• 55:38
  There's blood in Doctor Who. I haven't seen this in Doctor
• 55:40
  Who. I've never seen, like, wounds
• 55:42
  that visceral, at least in the new series.
• 55:44
  Yeah, and it's like he's actually dying.
• 55:46
  He's actually going through pain.
• 55:47
  And again, all that is adding to it.
• 55:51
  It was this bit now when he says I got here 7000 years ago and I
• 55:55
  I I still, if I watch it like on my own properly, my blood will
• 55:59
  run cold. I can feel that moment of
• 56:02
  realisation that he's got to do this and and yeah, if he just
• 56:05
  said what the hybrid was, which is basically a load of bollocks,
• 56:08
  he'd get let out. But he wouldn't get let out on
• 56:11
  Gallifrey. And that's the difference.
• 56:13
  I love these low shots as well. They do with the the Chance
• 56:16
  Porter or the 3D printer or whatever you want to call it and
• 56:20
  it's just shot. It's it's It's a fairly basic
• 56:23
  construction in terms of look at like there's.
• 56:25
  Lovely big levers they've got though.
• 56:27
  The levers are great, the lighting's great.
• 56:30
  So it's it just, it just looks really cool.
• 56:32
  It looks like this daunting, daunting moment.
• 56:35
  He's in a bad way there, isn't he?
• 56:37
  Yeah, yeah, he looks like 2 Face from the.
• 56:41
  Does does. OK, they didn't need to put any
• 56:46
  make up on him. That's just how he comes to
• 56:48
  work, you know? I mean when he died in a second
• 56:51
  and all the screens go black and static.
• 56:54
  I mean, he's he's gone. He's gone.
• 56:57
  He's gone. RIP is a pecan.
• 57:03
  I mean, that is a really dark line.
• 57:05
  That all you need for energy is something to burn.
• 57:09
  And then you watch the Doctor, he's got a face full of blood
• 57:14
  burn himself alive. I mean, I can understand that
• 57:17
  This, as she's saying is, is not the greatest episode for kids
• 57:21
  saying that, I'd love this as a kid.
• 57:23
  I think I was watching something really growing up when I was a
• 57:26
  kid, so I think we underestimate them sometimes.
• 57:30
  Oh no, I've just been in terms of sort of pace and incident.
• 57:33
  I. It it jumped out of a fucking
• 57:35
  window. 10 minutes and come on. Yeah, it would lasted 30
• 57:39
  seconds. Then he walked around the castle
• 57:41
  again for another half an. Hour No, 5 minutes.
• 57:43
  Riveting stuff. And then, yeah, we start to get,
• 57:48
  We start to get the montage. But you know, I do I I
• 57:50
  absolutely acknowledge everything you're saying, and I
• 57:52
  can see how much this means to you.
• 57:54
  I So it just baffles me that I just have no reaction to it.
• 57:59
  It it's quite baffling. It's supposed to be.
• 58:04
  I'm I'm just, I'm trying to possibly out now.
• 58:06
  I'm like, is it just making a mockery of regeneration?
• 58:09
  Is it making a mockery of death that he's dying and coming back
• 58:12
  to life again? It's it's not a mockery though.
• 58:14
  It's him going through the pain and the grief and the castle
• 58:18
  over and over again. Just to hit the wall, just to
• 58:21
  make a dent, just to die again, to restart again, all that.
• 58:24
  So one day, one incalculable day in the future, he can get out
• 58:30
  and. Say, how does that equate to
• 58:31
  grief in a way we can understand?
• 58:34
  Make that link for me. It doesn't necessarily have to
• 58:37
  be the exact same thing. It's just if you want to read
• 58:39
  into it, but in any way grief and depression, quite a lot of
• 58:43
  time could feel like you're just punching down a wall that will
• 58:46
  never go away. And this is giving you, oh, keep
• 58:50
  going, keep going and you will get through the wall.
• 58:54
  It's how I would say it. Yeah, it's it's it's the the
• 58:57
  process of just trying to get through each day and each day
• 59:03
  feeling the same and feeling empty and just eat.
• 59:06
  As much as you don't want to continue, you have to continue.
• 59:09
  It's a bit like sitting down and listening to all of wants and
• 59:12
  future in one day. Oh, now I get it.
• 59:16
  Relate that will be. Over and over again.
• 59:19
  Terminable. Now it's a shepherds boy playing
• 59:23
  at this point. Yeah, because I would just like
• 59:25
  to say. I mean, that's my most listened
• 59:27
  to piece of Doctor Who music of all.
• 59:28
  Time. Apart from the master reveal in
• 59:31
  spiteful Sorry Luke, I love that bit as well.
• 59:33
  I only like that because of evil Done.
• 59:35
  Well, you just say that last time, yes.
• 59:38
  But this is a this is a just. It's almost too good to be a
• 59:42
  piece of music in Doctor Who I I don't listen to.
• 59:45
  Doctor Who music very often. Oh, you're missing out.
• 59:48
  But I do have with me right now myths and other legends, which
• 59:52
  is the music from The Myth Makers Tapes by Mark Ayers,
• 59:55
  which I listened to yesterday. The.
• 59:59
  Too hot for TV? I I didn't dress a little tidbit
• 1:00:02
  that I quite like. There is a In Day of the Doctor
• 1:00:05
  when the three Doctors are sort of talking about pressing the
• 1:00:08
  button, there is a bit of The Shepherd's Boy there, like a
• 1:00:11
  really early version of it that really.
• 1:00:14
  Yeah, yeah, genuinely. And with it being like a really
• 1:00:17
  significant event. Does does it again in when he
• 1:00:21
  does in his last season. Oh yeah, yeah, when he's
• 1:00:25
  regenerated. Yeah, I thought so.
• 1:00:27
  Yeah. Never, never eat purse.
• 1:00:30
  Mind you, the best, the best bit of regeneration music ever is,
• 1:00:35
  and I never thought I'd say this in time as a doctor, that
• 1:00:38
  beautiful music from the rings of bakatin that they use in
• 1:00:40
  that, that's just gorgeous. I probably preferred end of
• 1:00:45
  time. The big where?
• 1:00:47
  It sounds like they're saying. No, it sounds like they're still
• 1:00:52
  going to need to. Change.
• 1:00:56
  Talk about fucking pretentious back wire.
• 1:01:00
  It's pretentious, but it was a fucking hit at the time.
• 1:01:07
  Maybe. I think mate, I think, I think,
• 1:01:09
  I think my issue is, is, is this wasn't great for me, that I
• 1:01:13
  think that's my big issue. That's why this doesn't.
• 1:01:15
  I I imagine your brother, because your brother said to me,
• 1:01:18
  Dylan the other day, when he watches a lot of Steven Moffat's
• 1:01:20
  stuff, it makes him cry. And he says when he watches
• 1:01:22
  this, he literally is weeping buckets.
• 1:01:25
  So it resonates somewhere with something in his life, because
• 1:01:28
  that's usually when something makes you cry, not just because
• 1:01:30
  it's a moving piece of television.
• 1:01:31
  So I think maybe that's just my problem.
• 1:01:33
  I think it was living with me talking about Doctor Who
• 1:01:35
  throughout his entire childhood. That's how he really relates to
• 1:01:38
  this. Weird I.
• 1:01:40
  Think it's 4 1/2 billion years. He's the original.
• 1:01:44
  He's the original little girl who forced to listen to watch
• 1:01:48
  Doctor Who again and again. By Is that why he saw basically
• 1:01:51
  rejected it? Now you know.
• 1:01:54
  This one is like this one that makes me more excited because
• 1:01:58
  like the the puzzle pieces are fitting in and the music
• 1:02:01
  swelling. So this doesn't get me
• 1:02:03
  particularly emotional, but there's scenes in Hell Bent that
• 1:02:05
  get me emotional if I watched it properly.
• 1:02:07
  I was surprised how much some of those scenes in Hell Bent.
• 1:02:09
  Snuck out some of the scenes in the diner.
• 1:02:12
  The the dialogue. It's literal, gorgeous poetry.
• 1:02:16
  As arty farty as that sounds. You know as well though I
• 1:02:20
  obviously this is about the absence of a companion and him
• 1:02:23
  dealing with that. Yeah, I think it made me realise
• 1:02:26
  I need the companion there because I'll say it again, the
• 1:02:31
  2nd hell Ben started and they were together and just the
• 1:02:33
  warmth of it and I was like, yes, this is Doctor Who, let's
• 1:02:37
  go. What do you think of the
• 1:02:39
  deadliest assassin like, genuinely?
• 1:02:41
  I don't go back to it very often.
• 1:02:42
  Yeah. So there is some.
• 1:02:44
  It's cold like this. It's very cold.
• 1:02:46
  I think with the Deadly Assassin and with this, the show has to
• 1:02:50
  earn it. You can't take it for granted.
• 1:02:52
  Yeah. But it it can just do something
• 1:02:54
  like that in like episode two of A New era or something like
• 1:02:57
  that. I mean, I will say like I've
• 1:02:59
  said, a lot of businesses, but I am so pleased this exists.
• 1:03:02
  I'm so pleased they did this even.
• 1:03:06
  Though it comes out at the top of the polls, are you still?
• 1:03:09
  Who cares what those people think, Luke?
• 1:03:11
  Have you seen what's at the bottom of those polls?
• 1:03:13
  Some of them are great. Yeah, no, it's it's the only
• 1:03:15
  placement on the pole that I agree with.
• 1:03:17
  I mean, who the fuck reads Doctor Who magazine these days?
• 1:03:20
  Who pays 1099 for that fucking trash?
• 1:03:22
  Some fucking Blazers, yeah. I'm not spending an hour's of my
• 1:03:29
  working wage to see pictures of the editor.
• 1:03:32
  I'm putting out magazines all over the TARDIS console Soul.
• 1:03:36
  Now. Seriously though, if you want to
• 1:03:37
  read the Gallifrey Guardian, I'll send it you over there,
• 1:03:39
  I'll. Send it please.
• 1:03:41
  When he picked up the confession dial just then and the castle
• 1:03:45
  was in it and it closed over. I was still punching the air at
• 1:03:47
  that this point. Like for me, the revelations
• 1:03:50
  keep going and keep going and you you, you know he's on
• 1:03:53
  Gallifrey. You can just feel it and then
• 1:03:55
  when you get that shot, I literally came in my pants and.
• 1:03:58
  Started crying at the same time. My my heart was beating so quick
• 1:04:03
  at this point. Yeah, because there's nowhere
• 1:04:05
  else it can be. And he almost went, he almost.
• 1:04:08
  Not this episode, but Gallifrey almost returned at the end of
• 1:04:11
  series 8. That was the original plan.
• 1:04:14
  I can't remember whether did we know about this before?
• 1:04:17
  Haven't sent, did we know? I feel like there was some in
• 1:04:21
  the in the synopsis. It was like the Doctors going to
• 1:04:24
  get to Gallifrey. They didn't say it on this, but
• 1:04:27
  the synopsis for the next episode was released which
• 1:04:29
  mentioned Gallifrey. No, Right.
• 1:04:31
  Yeah, because. But I don't remember.
• 1:04:33
  It didn't matter. It didn't matter.
• 1:04:35
  It was the Radio Times listing, and it was like it said
• 1:04:38
  something like the the Doctor must battle through all eternity
• 1:04:42
  to get back to Gallifrey. Yeah, yeah, but I don't remember
• 1:04:46
  it matter in the jot like I I at this moment I was just like, I
• 1:04:50
  can't believe what I'm watching. I was just thinking, oh God,
• 1:04:55
  here we go. Arkham, Infinity of the new
• 1:04:57
  series. Because I've I've never liked
• 1:04:59
  stories set on Gallifrey, so it's just not my bag.
• 1:05:02
  Well. We'll we'll get into that in a
• 1:05:04
  moment. But yeah.
• 1:05:06
  Well, I mean, can I say a little spoiler?
• 1:05:09
  None of the Gallifrey stuff is what thrilled me about Hell,
• 1:05:12
  Hell Bed watching this morning. It was mostly the character
• 1:05:15
  stuff, which I thought was very, very good.
• 1:05:16
  Very, very good. Well boys, sorry to be a party
• 1:05:20
  poop, but that was your chance to tell me precisely where I've
• 1:05:23
  gone wrong with your three fabulous reasons as to why
• 1:05:26
  Heaven Said is the number one Doctor Who story as voted by
• 1:05:31
  everybody except me. I'm really going to struggle to
• 1:05:33
  find three things in a weird way because it's it's it's the whole
• 1:05:39
  thing for me. Like there's nothing I can pick
• 1:05:43
  out as I can find one thing I dislike about it and that's it.
• 1:05:48
  OK. Well, that's fair, Luke.
• 1:05:51
  I mean apart from like just the usual things, the music and and
• 1:05:57
  whatever, I think it's just that it's one of Doctor episodes.
• 1:06:00
  It still gives me goosebumps and thrills and just emotion.
• 1:06:06
  It on rewatch from rewatch and I mean it's just it just takes me
• 1:06:09
  back to that that night in Leeds in bed at half two in the
• 1:06:13
  morning that like like really big Doctor Who hide that I'm not
• 1:06:18
  sure has ever been matched since like the world nothing time
• 1:06:26
  world nothing. Time might have come close when,
• 1:06:30
  you know John SIM came out, but no, there was nothing like that.
• 1:06:34
  And it with that whole with it feeling like it's being
• 1:06:37
  transmitted right for me and that nobody else has watched it
• 1:06:40
  And the Doctor Who was mine, I mean you know, as she said, as
• 1:06:42
  she said it feels like it's it's written for the fans and it's
• 1:06:45
  written for adults and at that time it really did feel like it
• 1:06:49
  was for me. And so it just it has the
• 1:06:54
  personal aspects. I mean that bit with the doctors
• 1:06:57
  just sort of look at the stars and the the time stamp in his
• 1:07:01
  life. I mean high time stamped my life
• 1:07:04
  with with where where was when Doctor Who was on.
• 1:07:06
  It's sort of a lot easier to know where you watch that, where
• 1:07:09
  you watch that. So every time he does that, I
• 1:07:10
  can just think think of yourself as what happened in 2013.
• 1:07:14
  Well, you know Cold War was on at the end of March.
• 1:07:17
  So where was I at Cold War. You know, it's like you do sort
• 1:07:20
  of work around that. I think we all do that, you
• 1:07:23
  know? Yeah.
• 1:07:24
  Absolutely. And I can't explain that sort of
• 1:07:28
  Doctor Who's constant occupation in in my brain, but we all have.
• 1:07:32
  You can to us. You know we.
• 1:07:34
  All you can't to anyone else in your life, but you can to us.
• 1:07:38
  Yeah, but when it when it's when it's at its most unpredictable
• 1:07:41
  and most creative and most magical, like it is here.
• 1:07:46
  There's just nothing else like it.
• 1:07:47
  And I think we us fans worry about a million different
• 1:07:51
  things, about what Doctor Who should be and can be and
• 1:07:54
  everything. And then on the on the very odd
• 1:07:56
  night, like this night where everything falls into place and
• 1:07:59
  it's perfect, there was just there's just nothing else like
• 1:08:02
  it. Absolutely I had.
• 1:08:04
  I had the same response to the child, the the timeless child I
• 1:08:09
  did. I did.
• 1:08:11
  Dylan, you were doing so well with this.
• 1:08:12
  Don't. Follow that with.
• 1:08:15
  Follow that with. That come on, can I?
• 1:08:18
  So I'll I'll be the one that does three things then, because
• 1:08:21
  I can't believe that's me. Well, no, like Rachel Tulali's
• 1:08:24
  director. Yeah, Gold Shepherd.
• 1:08:28
  'S. Boy, I was going to say all.
• 1:08:31
  That's why you can't do it, because it's it's it's just all
• 1:08:33
  there. Yeah, it's.
• 1:08:34
  Just, I was going to say the three personal best.
• 1:08:36
  I think it's Talele's personal best.
• 1:08:38
  I think it's Capoli's personal best and I think it's Murray
• 1:08:41
  Gold's personal best. I shall say it's Stephen
• 1:08:43
  Moffitt's personal best because I think it's really boring.
• 1:08:45
  But all those three I think are delivering the best work.
• 1:08:50
  And it's the it's the script that makes it boring, do you
• 1:08:52
  think? That's the story.
• 1:08:55
  It's the depiction of grief in a very strange way.
• 1:08:58
  But you know what? Horses for courses.
• 1:09:00
  We all come at this from different directions, do we not?
• 1:09:03
  The script is really interesting.
• 1:09:05
  One of us didn't last by 4. Remember Madness?
• 1:09:08
  The script is really interesting because that the montage as you
• 1:09:12
  see it at the end when it with the whole 7010 thousand into the
• 1:09:15
  future, every bit of it is, is in the script.
• 1:09:19
  It's not like it's just gone montage of this over and over
• 1:09:22
  again it as it appears on the screen, it's exactly how it's
• 1:09:25
  scripted. It's it's a masterpiece of
• 1:09:27
  scripted. And fair play to to lay lay as
• 1:09:30
  well. She didn't reuse any footage.
• 1:09:32
  Every time you see a repeat of something, it's a new take.
• 1:09:36
  Yeah. But there's no just Oh well
• 1:09:38
  you've walked down that corridor once.
• 1:09:40
  We can we can do it again. Like if they they do a new take
• 1:09:43
  for every every little bit. Yeah.
• 1:09:46
  And just to finish that for one of us, did not like the star
• 1:09:50
  base. Also directed by Rachel Tallele.
• 1:09:53
  Yeah. But you.
• 1:09:55
  Know and similarly wonderful. Yeah, but you can't Polish a
• 1:09:57
  turd, can you? But.
• 1:10:00
  Will one of us not like Hell Bent?
• 1:10:04
  Also directed by Rachel Tallele. Well, we'll have to find out,
• 1:10:07
  Will. We oh, no, we've all just said
• 1:10:09
  we liked it in this episode. There's very little suspense
• 1:10:12
  there. He's trying to move us on.
• 1:10:14
  Oh, I see. Oh, OK Whoa, come on, let's
• 1:10:17
  fucking get on with it then. OK.
• 1:10:19
  Well, we'll, do you want to cut it?