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Trusting Your Vision: Building and Believing in a Brand for an Untapped Market · Serious Lady Business

• LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (00:00) Hey there, I'm Leslie Youngblood and this is Serious Lady Business, the podcast where we get real about what it takes to build a business as a woman today. From late night Google searches and client curveballs to the wins that make it all worth it, I'm talking about the stuff no one puts in the highlight reel. Each week, I'm bringing you honest conversations, lessons learned and stories from women who are out here doing the work. Messy, meaningful and unapologetically bold. Whether you're just dreaming about starting a business or deep in the grind, this podcast is your space to feel seen, supported, and fired up. Because let's be honest, this journey is hard, hilarious, and absolutely worth it. So let's dive in. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (00:41) Welcome back to Serious Lady Business. We have another most amazing, inspiring, and accomplished guest with us today, Sally Mueller. Now, Sally is the co-founder and CEO of Womaness, a brand that is changing the conversation around women's healthy aging through innovative products that offer solutions from head to toe and everything in between. Sally is a consummate business builder specializing in retail and brand innovation. Her trend forecasting midas touch Sally Mueller (00:49) Thank you. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (01:11) has benefited companies such as Target, Who What Wear and Versed skincare, among others, we love them. And through her own health journey, Sally found that there was a lack of products and resources for women past a certain age, and few even recognizing the subtle signs of menopause. Now, Womeness's mission is to change the cultural conversation around menopause and create a #menopositivity movement, empowering women to navigate menopause with inspiration. Sally Mueller (01:15) care. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (01:37) education and access to quality information. Sally spent two decades of her career at Target Corporation, first in apparel merchandising and then marketing. She's recognized as an industry leader renowned for her business acumen in the fashion, beauty and lifestyle sectors. Sally, welcome. Sally Mueller (01:53) thanks, Leslie. That was quite a nice introduction. So. thanks. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (01:57) Well, you are quite incredible. I am so excited to have you here. And I think we just previously we discussed Womaness is celebrating its four year anniversary. Congratulations. Yes. How does it feel to have built a brand in a space that barely existed before? Sally Mueller (02:06) Yes, yes, thank you. my gosh, it's the timeline of four years feels like a nanosecond because everything has gone so fast. Yet it also feels like. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (02:18) Mm-hmm. Sally Mueller (02:22) decades because so much has happened in the last four years since we launched. I would say when we first launched, it was really hard to even get networks to cover menopause and women's health. And now you can't go an hour pretty much or a day without hearing more about menopause. So it's been really... LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (02:23) Mm-hmm. Right. Mm-hmm. Right. Right. Sally Mueller (02:44) fun to be a part of that and be one of the leaders in the space and really be in the zeitgeist of what's happening. So it's very exciting. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (02:51) Yes. Right. And that's, know, what we're really going to be discussing with our time today is trusting that vision, you know, on building and believing in a brand in an untapped market. You know, what were some of your biggest challenges when you began educating retailers and investors about a menopause focused brand? maybe they didn't even know menopause, right? Like, tell us about that. Sally Mueller (02:58) Mm-hmm. Yeah, well, we had, I think, challenges with retailers that were kind of different than challenges with investors. So I'll go back to retailers. In a typical retail organization, the merchandising teams are pretty young. You know, that's just a general statement across the Walmarts and the Targets and CVSs of the world. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (03:21) Mmm, sure. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Sally Mueller (03:37) There are merchants that are very curious about women's health and take it upon themselves to become really knowledgeable in the space. And others that it's difficult to comprehend menopause, they're thinking more about a millennial or Gen Z health needs. educating, you know. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (03:41) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. Sally Mueller (03:58) younger people about menopause and the fact that it isn't just one symptom. It isn't just hot flashes. It's all it's like over 40 symptoms and the role of, you know, educating and why it's important to merchandise your products together. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (03:59) Mm-hmm. Mm. Right. Right. Right. Mm-hmm. Mmm. Sally Mueller (04:16) because women want to see the full solution. They don't want to go up and down every aisle and try to curate their own solution. So that was kind of the challenge for retail. the... Yeah, right. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (04:19) Right. Right. Mm-hmm. Mm, because it wasn't, you weren't just selling one product. You wanted them to take like multiple products on an already probably small like shelf space. And having worked at Target, I'm sure you knew that inherently. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Sally Mueller (04:34) Right. Yeah, absolutely. And then on the other side with investors, they kept saying, why do you need so many products? We launched with 13 products. Can't you just launch with like three products? And we said, well, first of all, we're going into retail right away. You can't have a statement on a shelf with three products. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (04:46) Okay. Yes. Right, right, right. Sally Mueller (04:57) You have to, also most importantly, the customer has a variety of needs or symptoms. You know, she can't sleep. She has, you know, brain fog. She has night sweats. She has low libido. Her skin changes all over her body. So you have to, we wanted to address the major symptoms of menopause. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (05:03) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Sally Mueller (05:20) And we felt, and I felt like we would not be a legitimate healthy aging and menopause company if we didn't stand for, you know, at least 10 symptoms. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (05:30) Out of the 40, think you should be like, you're lucky it's only 13. Sally Mueller (05:33) I know, I know there's so many issues. that was that was what we had really experienced a lot of education. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (05:40) Wow. Right. Well, like you said, like we weren't, we're talking more and more about it now. And also to him, like, maybe just because I am getting into the para menopausal like stage, but I'm so grateful that there is conversation around it. And so has that benefited Womaness it in getting into more retailers have, and you've seen that market and that they change and grow right before your eyes and not to be like, I told you so, but I'm sure that there's some. Sally Mueller (05:49) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (06:06) Like a little feather in your cap too when it comes to that and knowing before everybody else in a way. Sally Mueller (06:12) Yeah, no, we, I think we take a lot of pride for launching in 2021, you know, before the movement was just starting to percolate. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (06:15) Okay. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Sally Mueller (06:22) And then about a year and a half later, think Naomi Watts launched her brand and Oprah started talking about menopause. And that's what it takes sometimes is for celebrities to get behind something. And the movement just started to gain momentum and like almost like a tsunami. So I think retailers were starting to take notice. We love our relationship with Ulta Beauty because they were on it right away. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (06:26) Right. Mmm. Yeah, sure. Uh-huh, uh-huh. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Amazing. Sally Mueller (06:50) and they said, we're going to believe in this. And they gave us the shelf space. We launched in 2022 and they've been very dedicated to supporting our brand along with other women's, know, women's health brands. But we're really one of the central brands in the aging space at Ulta So. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (06:53) Nothing. Mm-hmm. you are. Mm-hmm. That's awesome. I love it. And it's like you said, it's not that these symptoms didn't exist before, that women didn't go through menopause. It's just, takes just a couple of people to start talking about it. And then you don't feel so alone. And then you realize there's so many other people experiencing this. You're not normal. You're totally, it's just the way that it is. there, you don't have to suffer through those things. Like there are solutions and actions that you can take to. Sally Mueller (07:20) Yeah. Right. Right. Right. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (07:34) make your life as wonderful as it always has been as you go through this unique transition in your life. Now, when you guys launched in 2021, was there anything that you might go back and do differently now with Hindsight, Sally? Sally Mueller (07:37) Mm-hmm. Yeah. now with hindsight, Sally? so many things. Yeah, think we, you know, we had a partnership with Mayo Clinic and we still do. So that was great. I would really dial up the voice of a medical authority more because we co-created our product with doctors, but I think we didn't take maybe as much credit for that. So we're, you know, we're really trying to now. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (08:00) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Hmm, right. Sally Mueller (08:11) communicate that and amplify that message a lot more. So that's one thing. I think going into retail pretty early on, we maybe could have waited a little bit. It's so hard though, because in a way I shouldn't regret that because... LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (08:20) Yeah. Mmm. Sally Mueller (08:30) at times you have to be there, but you have to be on the forefront and you have to take some risks or you're not going to get ahead. Someone else is going to come in and take that shelf space. you know, I say I kind of regret it, but in a way I shouldn't. You know, could we have gotten by with a few less products? Yes, we probably could have launched with 10. You know, I mean, there's just LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (08:33) Right. Mm-hmm. Sure. Right? That's true. Right. No risk, no reward. Mm-hmm. Hmm. Sure. Sally Mueller (08:58) It's all about cash management. So I'm thinking about ways that we could have maybe preserved cash, maybe not raised as much as we did, although that's also a feather in our pocket that we were able to raise money during COVID. so that was a huge accomplishment. But yeah, I think all in all, we have very few big regrets, a lot of little ones, know? Yeah. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (09:00) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. Mm-hmm. Sure. Coming out of that. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That's right. Sure. As is any with anything I would imagine, Sally Mueller (09:26) Yeah. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (09:27) right? How long this was question I was thinking like, how long did you have this idea for this brand, Sally, before you started working on it and actually bringing it to life? Like, was it something you came up with like 20 years ago? Because you have such an extensive history in the retail and merchandising fashion health marketplace. I would just love to hear like, it took me a year and then I acted immediately on it. Tell me a little bit about that. Sally Mueller (09:36) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think it was about six months. I think what really triggered it for me was my doctor's appointment at Mayo Clinic. And I know I should go back in my records and see exactly when that was. But basically, I knew at this point I was in menopause. So I probably was 49 or 50. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (09:52) Okay. Yeah. Mm, mhm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Sally Mueller (10:12) And the doctor was really knowledgeable about menopause. Like she was explaining, you know, she was asking me a lot of questions about libido. And then, you know, I would say, my libido is shot, you know, I'm not sleeping well, you know, all these things. And she said, you know, that's all menopause. And I think I remember saying, I thought menopause was just hot flashes. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (10:17) Amazing. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Hmm. Yeah. Sally Mueller (10:36) And my mom never talked about it. And then she gave me a list of products to buy on Amazon. And that night when I got home, you know, from driving down to Mayo, my husband, who's, he's kind of like my doctor too. So he's looking out for me. said, I suppose you're not going to follow their directions, right? Snarky, kind of snarky. And I said, actually, LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (10:41) Mmm. Mmm! Mm-hmm. Yeah. Sally Mueller (10:59) I'm not using any of those products that they recommended on Amazon. I've already checked them out. They're not modern. They're not clean. I'm not doing it. I said. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (11:07) meeting, right? Sally Mueller (11:09) I want to disrupt the space. I think that was, if I haven't done all the, mean, Michelle and I met up very soon after that in New York, my co-founder, and, you know, I was telling her about my experience and what I wanted to do. And she was like, my gosh, I see all these women wanting to change their jobs. They don't really have inspiration. They don't feel, you know, empowered and they should. So we took. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (11:11) Ooh, ooh, I got ghostbumps. I love it. Mm-hmm. Hmm. Mm-hmm. Sure. Right. I love it. Sally Mueller (11:36) the insight of the need for education, the need for inspiration and the need for modern, innovative, really high quality products and at accessible prices and put it together. So. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (11:38) Mm-hmm. right. Right, yes. Love it. Yes. Amazing. That's so incredible. I love that. That's such a great origin story, right? I love that. Thank you. When you started pitching, was there a moment you thought that the market wasn't ready for it or was everybody pretty receptive? Like you said, Ulta was very welcoming and like... Sally Mueller (11:53) Yeah, thank you. Yeah, Ulta was very progressive. Yeah, I think there were a few moments when you're interacting with investors or retailers. You're like, I don't think they understand much about women's health. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (12:11) Yeah. I was right? Yeah. Right. Right. Right. Sure. And I mean, tell us a little bit about that. think, too, what we previously chatted, you said sometimes, though, there was the male investors that were more open to the discussion than some of the female investors. Tell us a little bit about that experience. Sally Mueller (12:30) Yeah. Yeah, we've had a lot of conversation about that. So we have phenomenal, I'm so happy with our investors and we have a combination of men and women. So I think I've got the best of the best women behind us. But what we've noticed is the women, know, VCs, women led VCs are when they kind of go through all of your LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (12:36) Mmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Sally Mueller (12:56) They hear your story, they're enthusiastic, and then they start going through all your data points, and they expect perfection. You have to hit, blah, blah, blah, these 12 things, and if you don't, we'll keep in touch. Maybe we'll come in on the next round. And. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (12:57) Sure. Mm-hmm. Financials. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm. Mm-hmm. Mmm. Gotcha. Sally Mueller (13:18) That's the difference between female and male investors. Male investors take more risks, and they're more, they may be overly confident, to be honest, but they take bigger risks and they don't need all the data points to sometimes take a leap with you. But I think a lot of it is the way we've all had to fight for our careers. know, women have had it harder, right? LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (13:27) Hmm, hmm, hmm. Gotcha. Sure. Sally Mueller (13:47) it's still, there's still an equity between men and women in the workforce. So I think it's all has to do with just the evolution of our culture and where we're at. So I can't blame anyone, I have, Michelle and I both noticed a big difference between some female and male investors. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (13:50) Mmm. Sure. interesting. Right. And I love that men get it and that they want to empower women's health too, right? Like you might think like, I'm going to go to a female investors and they'll get it. And then they say no, or there's that. And you're like, what? How? What? And I mean, it is what it is, right? And then you go to another one and it's male investors. think, well, I guess we'll give this a shot. And they say yes right away. And it's like, but that's so wonderful because we need both sides. We need everybody as the champions, right? No matter who, whoever gets it gets it. And that's like the power of Sally Mueller (14:10) Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we do. We do. Yeah. Right. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (14:33) business when people really get it and connect and want to take that risk with you. So that's fascinating. Sally Mueller (14:35) Yeah, yeah, right, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We think it's, we can't do this without bringing men into the conversation. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (14:42) Right. Of course. Right. It's their wives and daughters and mothers and sisters. I mean, it affects them as much as it affects women too, even though it's a woman issue, not a problem, just a natural thing we go through. Was there anything that you guys walked away from that in hindsight was the right decision, Like, did you? I don't know. You tell me. Sally Mueller (14:46) Yeah. Yeah, I know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Well, I think we definitely ended up and curated phenomenal investors. One of our lead investors is Obvious Ventures out of Silicon Valley. They invest in world positive brands. Emmaline Ventures, they're a group of women that are really on the forefront, willing to take risks. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (15:11) Mm-hmm. amazing. Yeah. Sally Mueller (15:28) SWOT Equity, which is another great investor, Sarah Foley. I mean, we've put, you know, just a phenomenal group of investors. So I'm very proud of that. And I think just the team that we've built and they've stuck with us, you know, through thick and thin, the core team. And it's not been easy. You know, it's it's hard, you know, and you're you're scared. You know, they're scary. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (15:32) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Sure. That's great. Mm-hmm. Sally Mueller (15:53) months where are we going to get the investment? Are we not? Do we take a risk? That kind of assessing all the time. it's not for everyone. It's not for everyone. You kind of have to thrive on what a startup offers. If you want stability, if you want more stability, although I would say corporate America isn't stable either, but yeah, there's risk involved. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (15:56) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. right. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's true as well. Yeah. That's true. It's all stability or like a false premise of stability where it's just as chaotic as that. So if you're feeling the pull, right? Mm-hmm. Sally Mueller (16:21) Yes. Yeah. And you could be gone tomorrow at a corporation. So I think the people that are attracted to these startups are more open to ambiguity. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (16:34) Mm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Right. They like it. Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. I love it. Yeah, me too. Did you have connections to those like investment, those like VCs, Sally, or did you have to just cold email them? Like, because you know, you came from a very, you know, accomplished career in the retail space and Sally Mueller (16:36) And they like kind of getting their fingers in a lot of different things. So I like that. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (16:57) and launch brands and you know, had all, you know, professional connections, what are those part of those professional connections or tell us how you're able to get in touch with those opportunities. Sally Mueller (17:05) Yeah, they were all new relationships. But what it it started with someone I knew, Marianne, and she started connecting me to, you know, Unilever Ventures and then Unilever Ventures connected me to Obvious and Sarah Foley from SWOT found reached out. So it's a small enough ecosystem that a lot of them are talking amongst themselves. And there is something that they pride themselves on, which is referring you to another like even if they can invest, they always want to help you connect to another investor. That's a very I was surprised by that. It's not it's not competitive. It's very collaborative, which is great. Yeah, so they'll LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (17:31) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, that's amazing. That's right. Interesting. Yeah. Sally Mueller (17:47) They'll definitely a lot of them. It's like a spider web that forms. Yeah. And you literally have to have a spreadsheet where you've got everyone and then how you know them. And then it keeps growing and you're, you know, those people start to introduce you to new people. Yeah, it is. It is. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (17:51) Sure. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Sure. It's about relationships, right? Like it's a beautiful yet complicated yet completely simple thing. Whether you're starting what, you're 20 or you're 40 or you're 50 and retail CPG or a tech thing. Like it's all about cultivating those connections with people to bring an idea to life, which is really special, I think. You know, how did you balance trusting your instincts? Sally Mueller (18:14) Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (18:28) with listening to outside feedback, whether it was from investors or from family, you know, or when you were believing in this product and this revolution moving forward that was still just bubbling up, Sally. Sally Mueller (18:33) Yeah. I think so much of what Michelle and I kind of leaned into was just our own experience. And when you start and you launch a company in your 40s and 50s, you have decades of experience. So you've been through the ugly, the good, the bad, and you know, okay, I'm not going to do that again, or... LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (18:49) Mmm, mm-hmm. Yeah. Right, right. Sally Mueller (19:02) These are people, a lot of it is also connecting yourself with the right people to start. So we knew who to call, know, who to reach out to to help us with packaging, who to reach out to to help us with, you know, building the brand, doing the log, designing the logo. we can hire that person or that writer. So some of the people that are working with us, you know, we've worked with for decades, you know. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (19:07) Yeah, people. Mm-hmm. Right. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Right. Yeah, that's incredible. Sally Mueller (19:29) Yeah, so I think it's, yeah, knowing your network and just relying on them, you know, and your own experience and wisdom. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (19:34) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Sure. Yeah. And I love that you started this when you were in your fifties, which other people might be thinking about retirement or, you know, are winding down and not starting a new venture. I love that because it's like, you can't help it. And it's like, it's not, it's like that idea won't let you go. It's like, you can, what can you do, but give in to the service of that idea, because it's not going to go away. And you know, and inherently well, I have. Sally Mueller (19:44) Yeah. Yeah. I know. Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (20:09) to this, nobody else is going to do this, it has to be me, it's not going to leave me alone, I don't want to be 90 and wishing I had done this when I was 50 or 40 or what have you, right? And so that's like a really special thing, as maddening as it can be, it's like, don't know, I guess I'll do it, okay, we're doing this, you know? What advice would you give a founder that, or a female that's working in the corporate space that might be in her 50s or anybody that, even if you're, when you're 27, you think it's too late, I'm not. Sally Mueller (20:12) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (20:36) You know, what advice would you give to somebody that thinks it might be too late for them to start their own thing? Sally Mueller (20:42) Yeah, it's never too late. I do think you have to think about your own life and where you're at and know that you might be at this for a while. It's not, you know, don't think you're going to like do this for a year or two. You know, especially if you're bringing in outside capital, you have to be at it, you know, for. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (20:47) Mm-hmm. Sure. Mm. Right. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Sally Mueller (21:05) You have to know what your end goal is. Is it to sell? What is it? And that takes a while. And you have to be patient. So you also have to think about, I ready to dedicate X percent of my time to this? And it's OK if the answer is no, I'd rather be traveling with my significant other or seeing my grandchildren or whatever. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (21:06) Right. Sure. Mm-hmm. Right? Sure. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Sure. Mm-hmm. Sally Mueller (21:28) So, but once you've decided, then you should do it. Yeah. And if you feel like you have a good idea, get it in, write, you know, put it in writing. And that's what we did right away as we were like, this is the name, you know, we didn't know the name of the brand yet. We just had like the menopause brand, the idea, but then it was like, no, we know what the brand is going to be and what it is not going to be. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (21:32) Yeah, no matter your age or state, right? Mm hmm. Yeah. Mm hmm. Sure. The idea of it. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Sally Mueller (21:56) which is almost more important than what it is going to be. So if I pulled those documents out, now it would be very much what we're living up to. So get your thoughts down on paper. Doesn't have to be a business plan right away. It's more like a brand. Like what is your company gonna stand for? LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (21:58) Sure. Mm-hmm. Yeah. love that. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. I love that. And that also, I feel like, gives you something to hold on to in the storm, right, that are going to come, right, when you're like, when you realize, no, I'm doing this for the long haul now, right? It's not like a two-year thing and then I'm dipping. But it's like, no, that, like, you're doing this for those reasons. It's more than, than a transaction. It's like, because you really believe and have this core at the heart of your brand and your business. Sally Mueller (22:21) Yes, it does. Right, right. Yeah. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (22:40) that's going to keep you going when the going inevitably gets tough. Because it's just the way that it is. It's just the way that it is. Sally Mueller (22:45) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and every right and every word on that document is really important, especially when you do the exercise of what our brand is and what it is not. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (22:56) Yeah, right. Yes, I totally agree. Mm-hmm. Sally Mueller (22:59) You know, we said, for example, we said we're not an activist brand, but we're an advocate brand. There's a difference between those two. Yeah. So that helped us navigate some challenging topics and, know, it's yeah, but it's OK to also have discourse around that, too. If you get into a situation. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (23:05) Mmm. Mmm. There is a difference. Yes, I love that. That's amazing. Mm, sure. Right, how to approach certain topics. Mm-hmm. Sally Mueller (23:26) And we've evolved our brand messaging. We've learned, but it's all based on what the customer told us and how to be more relevant. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (23:33) Right. And I think, go ahead. Right. Right. Sure. Listen, you had this idea and you had this really strong core, but of course, when you put it out into the world, people are going to react with it and engage with it in ways that you never expected. And a lot of it, 90 % will get it. And the people that still might give feedback will still get it, but you'll just be able to tweak it to make it even better. Sally Mueller (23:54) Yeah. Yeah, yeah. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (23:58) And I think that's, you know, and I think that's really important and speaks to the success of the brand is that you're willing to do that. And you are listening because the whole like basis of the brand is listening to women and listening to yourself that there's a need for this. Right. And I think also too, sitting down and writing out those things is what sets you apart and sets you up for that long-term success. There is like a core, there's a basis, there's a foundation for the brand. And I think. Sally Mueller (24:05) Mm-hmm Yeah, yeah, you have to. Right. Mm-hmm. Right. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (24:23) People might think, you just, I have had this conversation many a times. Sally Mueller (24:26) Yeah. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (24:26) Like I just need a logo. I just need a website. I just needed this. And then it becomes hollow. There's no meaning or like core at the people can sense that. I like people can really sense that consumers and people are smart and our spidey senses are very, you know, attuned to things. And you can tell when brands take the time to really want to deliver something that resonates with their customers, just like Womaness has done. Yeah. It's really, it's just, it's so fun to see. It's just like. Sally Mueller (24:32) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (24:53) Fun to see the proof in the pudding, right? Cause like it's advertising and marketers, you go like talking this and then you're like, but you see if you're just do this, like this is what is, is, you know, could be if you just took the time to do that. So I love that. What advice would you give to a woman that's in business right now with like the seed of an idea? Like what should she do first? Should she start with getting all those things on paper, Sally? Tell us. Yeah. Sally Mueller (24:55) Yeah, yeah. I know. Right. Yeah, yeah. I think that's helpful. think and then what we did, we also had focus groups early on. So. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (25:26) Was it like professional or was it just rounding up some friends and family? I love it. Love it. Sally Mueller (25:30) rounding up women, some of them I didn't know either. And it was so fun because one of the, I had a friend who was a PhD in consumer science. So she knew how to facilitate one of the sessions. My other friend facilitated a session in New York and she was an expert. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (25:34) Mm. Mm-hmm. Amazing. Oh, thought that's fascinating. Mm-hmm. Sally Mueller (25:52) Her background was marketing and research. So we had really good facilitators and maybe there were 15 women in the room. But it was so it was really close knit and everyone felt comfortable opening up. So that was really fun. So however you can get it done, I mean, don't think you have to hire some big agency to do it, you know, and spend all this money. But it basically helped us reinforce. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (25:54) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Sure. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. Right. Mm hmm. Yeah, sure. Sally Mueller (26:20) something we wanted to do or make part of the brand and then it added some other dimensions to the brand that we had thought of. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (26:29) Sure. I love that. it's, it's, that's I have to be. Like you said, you don't have to hire that big agency. Think Scrappy, you're startup, right? Like think Scrappy and us women are resourceful too, right? So it's like, there's really no excuse that you could, that we make excuses and I get it, right? Like it comes from that ego fear in a way, right? Where that, like maybe that self doubt sometimes where it's like, no, I can't do that. Or I can't do that without doing this. It's like, no, you can still do it. Just, just do it. Just take a. Sally Mueller (26:34) Yeah, yeah, very scrappy. I know. Yeah, yeah. Yeah LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (26:58) baby step and see how it feels and just keep going, right? Not leaping off the mountain. It's the baby steps, you know? So yes, yes, one thing at a time. I love that. And so something that I think is really unique about Womaness too, Sally, is you were able to build and grow. We talked a little bit earlier about Oprah, Naomi Watts. And Womaness consciously chose not to center a celebrity. Can you tell us why that was important and what impact that's had on the brand? Sally Mueller (27:00) Right, right. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. One thing at a time, you know. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, we like celebrities and want them to post about us, but we didn't, yeah, we didn't assign a celebrity or bring them in as a spokesperson. And it really was, we've always felt like it was this diverse set of women. It was like a squad. It was not meant to be a one woman founder brand. was like, we also think having different ages. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (27:27) Yeah, right. Love. Yes. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Sure. Mm-hmm. Sally Mueller (27:49) is super important. Different backgrounds, Hispanic, a Black woman, all sorts of different types of women. So we've had some really great partnerships. Kim Douglas has been with us for four years, and she was a TV personality and was on the Oprah show. And we started that relationship. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (27:51) Definitely. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Amazing. Sally Mueller (28:12) just as friends and then she went on Oprah, I'm sorry, Ellen show, not Oprah. And then we were very friendly with Emily Morris, Sex with Emily, Dominique Sauksay, and we're just expanding our network and... LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (28:16) Okay. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Sally Mueller (28:30) We have a new doctor that's partnering with us, Dr. Sadati, who's a functional gynecologist. So it's all about, do they have their own unique story to tell? Are they adding value to the brand, to the conversation? Yeah. So we're open, but I think we're not a celebrity-driven brand at all. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (28:33) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Amazing. Right, right to the conversation, right? Yeah, to the movement. right. you right. And you said there are some brands that might use a celebrity again that has nothing behind it. You're going to get a celebrity, a spokesperson, then we'll be fine and people will buy. It's like again, consumers and people are there's no guarantee and people are so much smarter than you give them credit for it. And especially in an economy where people are so much more judicious with their money and where they put their money and their time like you. Sally Mueller (29:00) Right, right. There's no guarantee. And now. Yeah, they are. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (29:18) It matters that you have something of substance. And I think that you have been able to build that consumer trust while competing against celebrity backed brands. Do agree, Sally, about that? Sally Mueller (29:19) Yeah. Right, right. Yeah, yeah. trust is everything we focus on. I mean, we have a full-time woman who's 53. name's Anne. She's been with us from the beginning and she, we call her the community concierge. my gosh, she is so. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (29:41) Yeah, I love it. Sally Mueller (29:44) in love with helping our customer. Like she thrives on it. And she was a big wig in the publishing world. Like this woman, big time publisher, very successful. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (29:47) Love it. Mm-hmm. Wow. Hmm. Mm-hmm. Sally Mueller (29:57) And now she's working for Womaness just because she loves it. She loves helping other women. So we really have invested in that good customer service. And if a woman has questions about our products or they just want someone to talk to, Ann is available. They can set up a Zoom with me or Michelle. I just use that as an example because we wanted to be, we're kind of. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (30:00) Amazing. Right. Mm-hmm. I love it. amazing. Sally Mueller (30:22) We're aspirational, but very accessible. Like we'd look expensive, but our brand is like every woman, every woman's brand, you know? And it's not elitist and it's very open. So thank you. Yeah. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (30:24) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Mm, yes, if you can feel that. All those things you can feel, which, yes, I'm such a fan and it's just so incredible to see it. And I would love to know, Max, you trusted your vision. You guys launched this brand, these products, this movement that's resonating. What's next? Sally Mueller (30:43) Mm-hmm. my gosh. We have a big announcement that will make probably three weeks. So just expansion, expansion opportunity, which is exciting. And we're fundraising again. So we're close on that. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (31:00) okay. We'll see if we can be excited now. Okay. Mm-hmm. Nice. Sally Mueller (31:11) And then we just, we want to come out with some new products because we've done a lot of co-create, know, listening to our customers so we know what they're looking for and what they love. And we want to be able to, you know, very selectively come out with one or two new products. So we never want to be a brand that has 25 or 30 products because I think we feel like women are so overwhelmed. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (31:20) Right. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Sure. Sally Mueller (31:37) With this stage of life, they don't LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (31:38) Yes, sure. Sally Mueller (31:39) need 25 skincare products. So they love that our line is really streamlined and each product has a real purpose. But we're missing some of the issues that need to be dealt with, I guess. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (31:42) Right. Right. Mm-hmm. I it. Sure. No, I love that. And right, like you launched with 13 and proved out that like this is valid and that this conversation is growing too, right? It's only going to get bigger. It reminds me in a way almost of like post-menopause, not post-menopause, what is it? When you, depression after you have a baby. Why am I not being postpartum depression, right? It's so many women experienced it and never talked about it. And then finally you started talking about it and Sally Mueller (32:02) Yeah Yeah. Yeah. postpartum. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (32:22) And it's just, you know, and you realize like there's so much more support and so much like assistance and that it's it's just part of of having a baby now is like making sure you have that conversation with your doctor, with your spouse or with yourself and like ensuring that your health is is at the forefront of that. Right. And so I think it reminds me similarly to the conversation we're finally bringing in building about paramenopause, menopause, and that there are these tools that can help you, like we said, like continue to live your best life and Sally Mueller (32:25) Yeah. Yeah. Right, right. Yeah. Right. Yeah. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (32:49) And it's not something to fear, because it's going to happen. But there's things that can help you navigate it. And the conversations around that is just so valuable. I mean, it wasn't around 5, 10 years ago. Like you said, your mom never talked about it. Maybe my mom talked about it, it's just really. No, right. Right. Right. Exactly. Right. Yes. Sally Mueller (32:58) Yeah. Right, right. Yeah, and it's not taboo now. It's, yeah, postpartum, it's like, what could we do to help you? I had it too, you know? It's not taboo. So I think that's where menopause is very close. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (33:17) Yes, right. You're doing so much goodness around that, Yeah, Sally, you've just got to keep crawling, right? We'll get there. We'll get there. Well, is there anything else that comes to mind as we wrap up here, Sally, about what you might want to share with our listeners when it comes to trusting your vision? Sally Mueller (33:20) inches away. We're inches away. So yeah. Yeah. I think just, you know, never, if you're not getting anywhere with your doctor, find a new doctor. We really try to give a lot of advice about questions, to ask your doctor. So we have a great blog with a lot of articles. So I encourage your listeners, fans to reach, you know, to check out our blog. And I would just say, you know, feel empowered. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (33:38) Mmm. Mmm. Yeah. things. Mm-hmm. Yes. Yeah, you're a woman, you're, yeah, you got this. Sally Mueller (33:58) Because, yeah, so many women, and it's because the medical community hasn't been trained in menopause. So, and you know, some cases, they're just not feeling comfortable about the subject. but don't, don't be dismissed. Just either find, you've got to find another doctor. So, yeah, yeah. Yeah. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (34:04) Right. Sure? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right, sure. Mm-hmm. Right. Right, and there's nothing wrong with that. Like you have to do, your health is at the core of that. You deserve to have a doctor that will have those conversations and they're out there, right? And so yeah, to have somebody that knows and is willing to talk about it and yeah, cause it's not going to go anywhere. It's something that's going to happen. So I love that. Thank you so much, Sally. And please share the link where they can find. Sally Mueller (34:26) Right, Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (34:43) That blog and any other places that they can find you will also drop them in the show notes, but I'd to have you share here where they can find you and Womaness Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Sally Mueller (34:45) Yeah. Okay. Yeah. It's very easy. It's womaness.com. W-O-M-A-N-E-S-S. And, you know, that's where they could get... access to all of our educational information. If they want to, you know, set up a Zoom with me, just reach out to Sally at womaness.com. And, you know, that's where they can see all of our great products and really read up on all of our ingredients and clinical studies. And, yeah, we have, you know, we're all about just putting everything out there, transparency. So. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (35:09) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's awesome. I'm just about to order the vitamin C serum too. I think you mentioned that that's your favorite product. Amazing. Yes. Sally Mueller (35:29) I actually have it sitting right. I love this product. I use it every night. It has 8 % vitamin C, which is about the amount that you want. You don't want to have too strong vitamin C and then squalene, which is a plant derived and it's hydrating. So I use it just I use it even on my hands because it you know vitamin C helps LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (35:42) huh, huh, huh. love it. Right. You were. You were. Mm-hmm. Right. Sally Mueller (35:56) kind of brighten your skin, but the squalling really helps the hydration. So I know. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (36:01) love that. Who doesn't need that? Especially as you get older when your skin gets drier, right? And so it's all the goodness that Womaness put in for us to take advantage of. So, well, thank you so much, Sally. It was a pleasure to have you here today. I'm so appreciative. Love learning from you. And I'm so excited to watch you and Womeness continue to soar and continue to build this important conversation about menopause for women. Of course. Sally Mueller (36:05) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Thanks, Leslie. Thank you. Well, thanks for the opportunity to tell our story. Okay. Thank you. Bye. LESLIE YOUNGBLOOD (36:27) We love anytime we'll have you back anytime, Sally. Thanks so much. Take care. Bye. Leslie Youngblood (36:33) Thanks for tuning in to Serious Lady Business. If you loved this episode, be sure to follow or subscribe so you never miss a moment of the real, raw, and really wonderful sides of female entrepreneurship. And hey, please leave a review if you're feeling generous. It helps more amazing women find us and join the conversation. You can also connect with us on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube at at Serious Lady Business and get all of the updates at SeriousLadyBusiness.com. Until next time, keep showing up, keep building, and keep being your seriously amazing self.