Latest / Unicorn Football Talk / Let's Talk Coaching!

Transcript

Let's Talk Coaching! · Unicorn Football Talk

• Emily: we're back for another episode. this has been fun getting this podcast off the ground. I think we're getting in a bit of a groove. What do you think? Hilary: I think we're definitely learning as we go and getting better. Emily: For this episode, we are diving into more NFL and we are looking at all things coaching. We're going to talk about the coaching carousel, coaching trees, and more. This topic turned out to be very interesting, actually more interesting than I thought it would be. So where should we start? Hilary: Wanna start with the coaching carousel? Emily: All right, let's do it. What is the coaching carousel? Hilary: So the coaching carousel is the term that is used to describe the constant changeover in head coaches year after year within the NFL. they're fired and hired every year based on their performance at the end of the season. There are coaches, a few fired during the season and sometimes after the playoffs, but there's one day that really stands out, and it's called Black Monday. And it's the first Monday after the regular season ends. And that is a time when you know teams that didn't make the playoffs, had turmoil within the organization, whatever, let go of their coaches. This year it was January fifth. three coaches actually lost their jobs before Black Monday. the Titans, the Giants, and the Falcons all decided to move on before the end of the season and had interim coaches on Black Monday. The Cardinals, the Browns, and the Raiders let their coaches go. And Even after that, a few more shoes dropped. Sean McDermott, Jim Harbaugh, Mike Tomlin, and McDaniel all also moved on for various reasons from their organization. So that's a lot of turnover this year. That's ten. Emily: Yeah, you know, it felt like a lot. 10 coaches. And it is out of 32 teams. so I looked up how did it compare to recent history? Is 10 a lot? It is high, but it's not crazy out of line. So I went back 20 years. There were three times in the last 20 years where 10 teams changed coaches. The high was 2009, where we had 11. Hilary: wow, okay. Emily: Coaching changes. there were seven years with seven changes. There were some eights and sixes in there. The lowest ever was 2010 in the last 20 years with only three. so it just got me thinking, how long do coaches have on average? Because if, you know, if there's only 32 teams and there's that many teams turning over, Hilary: Yeah. Hey, quick quick question. How many Emily: the yeah. Hilary: lost their jobs in the year before? I mean, are we talking like between two or three years worth of time we've got more than half the coaches turning over? Emily: Yeah, last year seven coaches lost their jobs. So that's seventeen out of thirty-two teams in two years. So that affects the average tenure, as you can imagine. in the last twenty years, the average tenure is three point two years for a head coach's job. The median is three. There are some recent examples of coaches that have had only one year. Hilary: Wow. Okay. Emily: since two thousand twenty three we had Pete Carroll in Vegas, Antonio Pierce in Vegas. There's a trend there. Hilary: There's a trend there. Emily: Gerard Mayo in New England, and Carolina, Frank Reich, I think his name was. Hilary: Okay. One and done. Emily: One and done. So, another interesting tidbit I found out was that the average tenure used to be higher nineteen ninety three, the average tenure was about four point five years, which is pretty significant difference. Do you know what happened in nineteen ninety-three that would impact that? Hilary: I don't I'm assuming maybe the way the coaches' contracts were structured or something changed. what happened? Emily: So that was the beginning of the free agency salary cap era. So you know, players really fought for the ability to get to free agency. And so After that point, teams were turning over people more frequently. Team rosters had massive turnover year after after year. And now that rosters could be built in an off season, owners became less patient. They were expecting quicker turnaround of results. So that was interesting. Hilary: That is interesting. And I want to point out something that happened this year that's kind of rare. it's really unusual to see a head coach go from one team to another in back to back years. Usually they end up, you know, going back to the college ranks or taking an offensive or defensive coordinator position in it with another NFL team or something to kind of reset before they come back as a head coach. But this year we had Two coaches go from one head coaching job to the other one. And that's John Harbaugh, who left the Ravens and is now gonna be the head coach for the Giants, and Kevin Stasfansky, who left the Browns and is now gonna be the head coach for the Emily: Atlanta. Hilary: Atlanta. Thank you, Atlanta. Emily: Yeah, and you know, that is unusual. I bet you know, Tomlin and Sean McDermott, I feel like they could have found another head coach job if they wanted to. I mean, they wanted the year off. and of course Tomlin's going into media. Hilary: Right. Yeah, that is really interesting, Mike Tomlin just flat out stepping away voluntarily and saying, you know, I'm done. I would say that's maybe one of the least often scenarios, somebody kinda going out and moving on to something else on more of their own terms. may we assume. No, you don't know for sure, right? I guess Andy Reed did that. he left the Eagles to the Chiefs. Emily: We assume Hilary: And there are a couple others going back a bit. Marty Schottenheimer in nineteen eighty-nine. he he did that. And Adam Gase went from the Dolphins to the Jets. I'm sure there are some even further back. but it is an unusual part of the cycle this year. Emily: Okay, so if teams are hiring who are they hiring? It feels like to me coaches are recycled a lot, like they get second or third chances. That's what it feels like to me. So I decided to dig into it And there are 15 head coaches that have coached three or more teams, and I'm not counting somebody like Wade Phillips that technically coached six teams because three of them were interim roles. He's he's number one. He's technically coached six teams. and it's just kind of interesting because it feels like, like a Pete Carroll, you know, he's coached four and people keep getting more tries. But historically it wasn't as high as I thought. Hilary: Okay. Emily: twenty-five percent of coaches have had second chances, which yeah, it feels like more. Yeah. Right now I looked up yeah, I looked up the current makeup of the NFL and it's twenty eight percent, so a little bit higher, but so cause I mean I was thinking like why aren't they giving new Hilary: Only twenty five. That's surprising. Okay. It does feel like more. Emily: People a try, but they are. when you look at how many have coached two or more teams, or over 120 coaches that have coached two or more, and 15 I said that coached three or more. There are three coaches that have coached four teams. Do any come to mind for you? Hilary: Well, I know one, only from the Seahawks perspective, that's Pete Carroll. I know he's had four shots in the NFL and really the Seahawks was the only success story for him. Emily: I looked at his winning percentage When he was at the Jets, he was point five six three winning percentage, which isn't horrible. point six winning percentage of the Seahawks. So yes, Pete Carroll was at the Patriots, the Jets, the Seahawks, and the Raiders. The other two were Bill Parcells, who's had really the most success. well, and Marty Schottenheimer as well had winning percentage at all four of those. Hilary: Do you think it feels like the head coaches are, I guess we're using the word recycled or have multiple opportunities because They don't really leave coaching. A lot of them, if they've lost their head coach job, turn up in another organization as an offensive coordinator, or they are in the management tree somehow and they just they kind of don't go away. I I I don't I don't know how to word that tactfully, but they the name that a lot of the same names seem to come around year after year to me. maybe that's just the way I remember it. But your stats don't bear that out. So that is interesting. Emily: They don't I mean, I do understand owners that are risk averse if they need to hire a new coach and they'd want to go with somebody that they could see had done it, and they may think their organization is better and they can succeed better in their organization. I don't know. but yeah, most of don't leave football. They stay in it somehow, especially if they're younger. They go back to being a coordinator. Hilary: Right. Right. Emily: So do we wanna move on to our next topic? Hilary: Yeah, but can we do a little trivia first? I I okay, okay. I wanna know if you can come up with a couple of memes of the longest tenured coaches in NFL history. Emily: Yeah, let's do it. Hilary: Twenty seasons or more. Emily: Twenty seasons or more. I mean, it's that's pretty impressive given that we said the average has been low. if I'm gonna guess most of them are older era coaches. but the one that pops to my head is Bill Belichick. Is he on that list? Hilary: Yeah, yeah. he is on that list. He had a 24 season run with the Patriots, but he's not the top of the list. And you're right, the top of the list guys are from the older era of football, pre free agency, as you pointed out before. And so number one is Curly Lambeau with the Packers' 29 seasons, which is really an astounding run. 1921 to 1949. Emily: Wow. Hilary: Tom Landry is on the list with 29 seasons with the Cowboys. Don Shula had 26 seasons with the Dolphins. And then you have Bill Belichick. Chuck Knoll coached the Steelers for a really long time. Steve Owens had 23 seasons with the Giants. And you know, the two coaches that we talked about earlier Mike Tomlin and Harbaugh, they almost made the list. Tomlin had 19 seasons with the Steelers. And interestingly enough, he never had a losing season. Nineteen years never had a losing season. That is the longest record of any head coach. And Harbaugh had thirteen winning seasons out of eighteen with the Ravens. So definitely some longevity with those guys too. Emily: Yeah, it's the end of an era there for both of those franchises. Hilary: It is. It's gonna be interesting to see what they do next. Emily: Yeah, for sure. All right. We're going to move on to our second topic. when I was thinking about all of the turnover at the coach level, I was kind of thinking also about the responsibility of the team and what role they play in the success of of a team. I looked at the teams with the most turnover at head coach, going back to let's 2002. So if I don't count interim coaches, which are the coaches that are hired to replace head coaches that are fired during the season, Hillary, who do you think take a guess or two of you think the franchises that have hired the most head coaches since two thousand two? Hilary: So I am thinking that boy, okay, huge turnover. Cleveland is on that list for sure. and I don't yeah, and I don't Emily: Correct. Hilary: No, has there been a lot of changeover in Tampa, maybe? Or the Falcons? Emily: Number one was Raiders. I mean, Pete Carroll was just hired and fired in a year. they've had thirteen head coaches since two thousand and two. Thirteen. Hilary: okay. Bright. Wow. They I'm thinking back now with John Gruden and then they had a bunch of interim guys and some one and duns in there. Okay, that makes sense to me. That makes sense. Emily: Yep. Yeah. So Browns, you nailed it at number two. They've had ten head coaches. And number three was the Miami Dolphins with nine head coaches. Hilary: Nine? I don't know. Nine. Okay. Emily: Yeah, nine. I don't know why that surprised me. I think cause McDaniel's been there for he was there for like more than two or three years, I think. so I didn't expect them to be on there. When I was thinking about this, I was thinking the Jets would be up there. they had seven head coaches, which is just middle of the road, really. So you have a bunch of Eights at the Bills, Cardinals, Jaguars, Falcons, and the Forty Niners and Broncos have all had eight. And then you get into the range of the Sevens, Bears, Buccaneers, Jets, Commanders, Lions. Hilary: Okay. S so does all right, does that correlate then like are the Steelers and the Ravens at the very bottom of the list with the least turnover? Emily: Yeah, they had three head coaches since 2002. And in general, when I'm looking at the list, the more successful teams, as you would expect, have had less turnover. but is it the coach? That's what I was wondering about. you know, owners are like I hired Pete Carroll to turn this around and he didn't. So let's fire him. It must be Pete Carroll, but is it? Hilary: Okay. Emily: Pete, Carol. Is is there more responsibility? Hilary: Yeah. Emily: Yeah, exactly. So how important is the role of the organization or owner in the success? I think it's pretty important. I think it's like any work environment. Culture and how the org operates is important. Owners create the culture, they hire the management, they set up the organization. The quick firings, in my opinion, do not reflect well on the owners or as much on the owners as they do the coaches, at least. If you turn over super quick the new coaches, doesn't that reflect? poorly on the person that hired them as much as the coach. did the team have the players that fit the coach's scheme? Likely not, if it's a really quick hiring firing. So my hypothesis was that it was as much or more about the owners, but it isn't as straightforward as that. ultimately I think it's a meld of responsibility between owner org, structure, coach. So let's talk about the top three or Bottom three, let's start with the Raiders. The current owner is Mark Davis, and he took over in 2011. So it's not all on him, but his father was the owner before legendary owner, Al Davis. Hilary: Three. Yes. Emily: what I found very interesting is you mentioned the player the NFLPA survey from a previous episode. The owner scored an A. So the players think Mark Davis is awesome. Hilary: Yeah. Okay. Emily: They love him. And part of that is because he invests in the facilities. they have like world-class facilities and the players really like that. Hilary: Yeah, that is a beautiful stadium in Vegas. Wow. Emily: So apparently they like him, but the criticism of Mark Davis from the outside is that he lacks vision. He brought in six general managers since 2011, which is just a lot of turnover. the years under him have included power struggles, like when Gruden was the coach and he had final say on the roster. There are people that talk about office dysfunction and poor culture resulting in sudden firings. And it has been said. That he lacks patience and he thinks like a fan. It will be really interesting to see if Tom Brady's presidents will help or not. for those of you don't know, Tom Brady is a minority owner of the Raiders and is involved in the organization. Obviously, he's an all-time great QB, but who knows if that translates to organizational stuff. Hilary: Yeah, I don't know either. We'll see if we get a Brady effect or not, I guess, over the next couple of years. Because I think that it's not usually a one year turnaround on something that's been struggling for multiple years, right? You you've got to have some cultural shift and change and that takes time. Emily: right, let's let's talk about the Browns. The Browns was the one that you remembered, because I think we all just have them in our heads of an organization that's not doing well and isn't healthy. Hilary: I think they've made some challenging financial decisions in the last few years that are hanging over their heads and making it difficult for them to move forward in a lot of ways. But I don't what did you learn? bring me up to speed on the Browns. Emily: No, you got it. you got it correct. So let's start with the owner. Jimmy Haslan purchased it in 2012. So again, we can't blame all of the Browns' woes on him going back, you know, 20, 25 years. But he's an example of a owner that rates low on the NFLPA survey. He's actually the lowest or one of the lowest in the survey, specifically low on culture. So I don't think. players think super highly of him or that he brings culture to the organization. He, also like Mark Davis, hasn't set up the structure and stability. So there's just been a lot of turnover. and I just think it's interesting, Kevin Stefansky, their coach, that they just fired this year, is actually thought of pretty highly as a coach. And he was snapped up. Somebody's Hilary: Yeah. Yeah, he got another head coaching job right away, right away. Emily: Yeah. So I just think that's interesting that somebody thinks that the coach is talented. And so it's it's almost a direct reflection of the Browns to me. so he Hilary: Okay, what's happening in the front office too? There's some turnover there, right? Emily: Yeah, he blew through five GMs and six coaches in his first decade. I mean, that's that's a lot, especially general manager. I mean, you know, when you hire a new general manager, you're really starting over in an organization, how it's run you need to know what your philosophy is and stick with it. So I think that might be similar to the to the Raiders problem. And then you mention that they've gotten themselves into a financial situation. The Deshaun Watson contract happened under this owner. The Browns traded away three first round picks to the Texans in order to acquire Deshaun Watson and and then paid him an historic five-year fully guaranteed contract despite some really gross off-the-field stuff. Hilary: Yeah. Emily: It's not the first guaranteed contract of all time, but it was just a huge number. It was it was the longest, it was over five years for a veteran. And it was just to a risky player. Hilary: Yeah, and I don't know the stats, but you know, has he played more than ten games for them? I mean, he he's had injuries, he had the the ban for the first portion of the first season he was with them. I they they've gotta get out from under that contract. And I don't know the last year of that, but i I think it's coming up. Emily: Yeah, I mean five years fully guaranteed for a veteran. I mean, injuries will happen. I can't blame the owner for not know you know, he didn't know that Deshaun would get injured. I just think it's risky knowing like his off field stuff. I just found that very odd. Hilary: Mm. Yeah. They're kind of the ultimate what if franchise, right? Emily: Yeah, when I when I look back, they've had some decent coaches too. well this predates these are old, but they you they had Belichick, Nick Sabin, and Marty Schottenheimer, which are also they're not my they're not in the last twenty five years, but like I I think it's the organization there. Hilary: I would have to agree. I would have to agree. I hope they can get make some changes with their new coach. I'd like to see them be successful. Yeah. Yeah. Being a Browns fan will be hard. It would be challenging. Emily: It would be. all right. So let's just dive into one more org that was at the topslash bottom of the list. Miami is the third team that had the most turnover in recent memory. They had a longtime general manager, Chris Greer, who held personnel power for years. until he left. And he repeatedly struggled to build a competent, balanced roster. They routinely prioritized high priced, flashy skill players while failing to secure a durable defense and physical offensive line or, you know, the less flashy stuff. they executed a complete front office purge. Hilary: Right. Emily: And anytime you do that, which we just talked about, it's gonna mess things up for a little while. Hilary: And that's this year, right? Emily: And but yeah, this year. Hilary: New coach, new GM, new whole start over for them. Emily: Well, the new Hilary: Yes. Emily: GM was in twenty twenty five and new coach in twenty twenty six. But what was interesting to me about Miami is also the culture, the players say they love the culture there. The NFL's gold standard as the number one organization in the NFL. Hilary: Okay. Okay. Emily: and they invest heavily in the environment, you know, the Hilary: The locker room, the stadium, the Emily: sorry. Yeah. Hilary: all of the ec all of the yeah. Emily: But there's some people that think Hilary: The external stuff. Emily: that that has created this country club atmosphere, which means the team is less serious. I don't know. That's what some people are saying. So I think there's not one formula, is what I've learned for what a bad organization is or a bad team and how to build it. But I would say more stability, people with visions, obviously a good. Coach seems to be the theme overall. Do you have anything else to Hilary: Yeah, yeah, I just agree. I think that it's not one person can't quote fix it or solve it. Everybody's gotta be working in tandem and really great communication and with the same vision heading forward, right, as a united front office and coaching staff for sure. Emily: Yeah, if you're turning them over regularly, churning through that, you need to look inward. I don't think it's the coaches. I think there's something about what you're doing that is not optimal. That's my opinion. Hilary: Okay. Emily: All right, let's move on to coaching trees. What are they, Hillary? What's a coaching tree? Hilary: Well, first let's do a little co context in this is that there's no cap or rules about how many coaches a team can have. NFL averages about twenty-four per team. That's including head coaches, various coordinators, position coaches, assistant position coaches, even the strength and training and conditioning guys, it all kind of wraps into that number of 24 ish. So you have a lot of assistant coaches and position coaches learning from the head coach, how that head coach organizes team activities, how they approach the play calling, how they delineate responsibilities across their staff, all of that kind of stuff. And the best coaches out there tend to mentor and teach other coaches how to be good coaches. And so then you develop what Called kind of a coaching tree. And it's just really basically the idea that the head coach is mentoring the people who work for him. And over time, they move up to more important positions and eventually hopefully become a head coach and can take part of what they learned and succeed as they move on. We're going to highlight three coaching trees. And this pushed me to dig back into a deeper level of NFL history than what I know just from my kind of twenty years of fandom because most of these coaching trees start way before that. So Who do you want to talk about first? Emily: I picked Mike Holmgren slash Andy Reed. when we talk about coaching trees and branches of coaching trees, it doesn't mean that every coach that branched off do things exactly like the previous coach, but they take learnings and they adapt them, So Mike Holmgren, successful head coach of the Packers and the Seahawks, three Super Bowl appearances, one win. And Andy Reid, successful head coach of the Eagles, and of course the Chiefs, six Super Bowl appearances, three wins. Andy Reid. learned under Mike Homgren. And Mike Holmgren learned under a legendary coach named Bill Walsh. So I guess all this sort of comes off of Bill Walsh. Mike Holmgren in general have many branches that have produced multiple Super Bowl champs and Coach of the Year winners. And a lot of it stems from the 1992 Green Bay Packers staff And Mike Holmgren is not yet in the Hall of Fame, he's been up for it many times and has not gotten in. But for me, I think the coaching tree should be part of the conversation if you have mentored a bunch of coaches that have done well in the NFL. So what did Mike Holmgren do and what was passed on? I want to do a quick lesson. I don't know if you're ever watching a football game if you hear announcers talk about the West Coast offense, you've probably heard that term many times, Hillary. Hilary: Yeah, what is it? Emily: I've heard it so many times and I don't know that I exactly knew what it was. I knew it was something about timing and passing, but I dug into it a little bit more. So that West Coast offense was created by Bill Walsh, who I just talked about was the mentor for Mike Holmgren. first of all, can I take one step back and say I assumed it was named that because Bill Walsh was the head coach for the Forty Niners West Coast team. And it's not. He actually invented the West Coast offense when he was the offensive coordinator for the Bengals, which is not a West Coast team. after a game, Bill Parcells, coach of the Giants, defeated the 49ers and he told reporters that his team played, quote, real football while the 49ers played that West Coast offense. So that name stuck. All right. So what is Hilary: Interesting. Emily: All right. So what is it? Hilary: Interesting. Emily: Before Walsh, we've talked in previous episodes about how the NFL has evolved in rules and safety. And NFL was more of a run, run, run, pound offense system. The West Coast offense is more about passing to set up the run. So it's more of a short passing game as an extension of the run. You're spreading people out, defenses have to be spread out. You're doing a quick throw, well timed quick throw, and then you're relying on yak, which is yards after the catch. Does that resonate for you? Hilary: It does. I there's a lot of teams running a version of that currently. Emily: Yes. Yes, there is. So the main concepts in this are timing. So there's this whole quarterback, I don't know if you've heard three, five, or seven step dropbacks. So quarterbacks perfect those dropbacks and the idea is that they're timed perfectly with the route runners and they throw them with precision to a specific target. the other main concept is using all eligible receivers, for example. using fullbacks or running backs as receivers, which is not really something that was done before then. And the other thing, and I don't know if this is a West Coast thing or not, but it's attributed to Bill Walsh, is that he scripted his first 15 to 20 offensive plays. I never really understood that. I know Mike Holmgren did that too. Did you know that Holmgren did that? Hilary: I no, I didn't know that. Emily: I was aware that Holmgren did that and I don't really understand it. Supposedly it is to test how the defense would react to different plays, which okay, I do get that, but I think it's weird because what if you had a third and inches? You're just gonna keep to your script or are you gonna try to get the inches? I don't know. I don't understand. I still to this day don't understand it, but anyway, that's also a hallmark of Bill Walsh. So Holmgren and Reed did Hilary: Right, right. Emily: keep the core philosophy, but of course they changed it and made it their own, Holmgrin specifically shifted to eye formation. So the full back is in front of the running back as opposed to side by side split back formation. And he also paired passing with traditional power running, forcing defenses to cram the line of scrimmage and opening up Some of the deep play action shots down the field. and Reed, who learned under Homgren, took that and changed it as well. Let's look at the shotgun formation where the quarterback takes the snap about five yards back from the center. That is not part of the OG West Coast offense. But if you've ever watched a Kansas City game, you will see Mahomes in the shotgun a lot. About eighty to ninety percent of the time. versus Homegren, who almost never had his quarterbacks in the shotgun. If you look at Hasselbeck while he was in Seattle, it was less than five percent. think about that? Because Hilary: Interesting. Yeah, think about that. Okay. Emily: so we watched the Seahawks play for years, and I guess I never really noticed that Hasselbeck was almost never in shotgun, but that's true. He was almost never in shotgun. so Reed does not shy away from that. So he has the quarterback in the shotgun. Hilary: I no. Emily: And he added some newer concepts like run pass options, zone read. I guess there's a name for this, the spread west coast. I'd never actually heard that before but what remains? So again, we're talking about coaching trees and learning from coaches. So what remained in both Holmgren and Reed's cases are Timing based footwork, prioritizing yards after the catch, which means you're catching in stride to run with momentum, stretching the field horizontally, running backs as receivers, and scripted opening. I didn't know Reed also does scripted openings. Hilary: I didn't know that either, but he does have a quarterback who does the shotgun very well. Emily: He does. I mean, I do think it obviously helps when you have great quarterbacks. Yes, Andy Reid had Mahomes. Mike Holmgren was the offensive coordinator with San Francisco. So he coached Joe Montana and Steve Young. but I want to note that Mike Holmgren coached Brett Favre and Matt Hasselbeck, who did not have early successes and blossomed under Holmgren. and finally, before I pass off to you, I've been talking a lot about Reed, but there are other coaches in this tree. John Gruden, Steve Mariucci, and Mike Sherman are off the Home Grin branch. And in the Reed branch, you can add John Harbaugh, Doug Peterson, and Sean McDermott. I won't go into the full list, but it is a strong coaching tree, and it was really fun to look into. So, what coaching tree did you pick to look into? Hilary: Well, I wanna start here by saying too that you started out really with the nuts and bolts and the technical part of the coaching tree philosophy. And I took a different tactic 'cause I wanna talk about the Mike Shanahan Sean McVeigh tree. that's what sportscasters and a lot of people call this coaching tree. But I also want to point out here that Sean McVay in interviews has been very clear in those interviews that he credits Mike Shanahan with the development of this coaching system and the tree, and that he's just passing on what he learned and mentoring others. So I'm coming at the coaching tree here a little bit from more of a personnel development Side of things as opposed to the actual play calling, running, and that kind of stuff. So, the tree that I'm going to talk about starts with a guy named Mike Shanahan. And he got his start as a graduate assistant at the University of Oklahoma with Barry Switzer. and his first NFL stint was with Dan Reeves, with the Broncos. And Mike was known for a really creative offensive mind. And he was also known for his ability to find really good value in players later on in the draft and develop them kind of beyond what people thought their potential was, particularly at the running back position. And I'll get into that in a minute of why that was important to him in his playbook. He was also kind of a controversial and drama guy. He lasted one year with the Raiders under Al Davis as the coach. he had some large feuds with the Broncos and Dan Reeves. but he did come to coach the Broncos for 14 years and went back to back in Super Bowls 32 and 33 with John Elway. So good coaching, great quarterback. Over a twenty year career, he had a hundred and seventy win, hundred and thirty-eight loss record, which is, you know, better than five hundred. and his final years ended up with the Washington now commanders. So it's interesting that you talked about Bill Walsh because Mike Shanahan took the Bill Walsh West Coast offense. And added a zone running game where he used just one running back instead of the traditional two. Thus, the reasons why he was developing running backs out of the draft and always trying to find the one guy, right? And for that one running back, he developed the concept of zone blocking. And in zone blocking, all of the offensive linemen they step up and they block an area. in front of the quarterback, not a specific defensive person who's coming at them. prior to Shanahan's zone blocking concept, it was a lot more man on man type thing in front of the quarterback, or just gap blocking where a guy just kind of stood there and took up some space for Emily: Yeah. Hilary: For lack of a word And so I'm not explaining this super great, but zone blocking is way more sophisticated in its concepts that each person is responsible for an area. And when you have that happening, it puts the responsibility on the running back to read where the gaps are gonna open based on the efficiency of blocking in the zone. as opposed to a fully scripted route run called play. zone blocking now is the primary format used in both college and the NFL. But at the time it was a whole new concept that people thought he was kind of nuts. They're like, what are you doing? the other thing about Mike Shanahan is he really believed that to be a good coach You had to know and understand the entire game. let's say you were the wide receiver's coach, you still needed to understand what was happening on the offensive line. You needed to understand the quarterback calls and the wider your knowledge, the better. And so he really preached for all of his assistants to fully engage. Gauge in learning the game on a bigger scale than just kind of their lane of what they were hired to do. and he just really believed that the more smart coaches you had, the more smart players you had, and the whole team kind of benefited from that, right? So his most successful tenure was with the Broncos, but his last job was at the Washington Commanders from 2010 to 2013. And when you talk about the development of his tree and the coaches who came after him, it's kind of where the tree starts. on that series of coaches in 2010, 2013, Mike's the head coach, his son Kyle is the offensive coordinator, Matt LaFleur and Raheem Morris are also on that staff. And Sean McVeigh was hired as a offensive quality coach and then moved on to tight ends coach. So as you work your way down this tree, you've got Mike Shanahan at the top. He mentored Gary Kubiak, Kyle Shanahan, Sean McVeigh, Matt LaFleur, and Anthony Lynn. And if you just go down the McVeigh, who's worked for him. You've got Kevin O'Connell, Zach Taylor, Brian Callahan, Liam Cohn, and some others. But this coaching tree currently represents 11 head coaches in the NFL right now that are directly related to that tree. And I thought that's a pretty significant contribution. I mean, I can name them all off if you want, or you probably know most of them, but His influence on developing personnel just continues to grow. Emily: Yeah, I don't know all of them. I know McVeigh specifically was hired young, very successful, and everybody wants a piece of that success. And so they do go after those trees looking for more. So that makes sense. Go for it. Hilary: Right. Yeah. Okay, I'm gonna list it off. I'm gonna list it off really quick. It's it's Matt LaFleur at the Packers, Mike LaFleur at the Cardinals, Zach Taylor at the Bengals, Kevin O'Connell in the Vikings, Liam Cohn for the Jaguars, Clint Kubiak just got the job at the Raiders this year, Demeko Ryan at the Texans, Robert Salah at the Titans, and Jeff Hafley with his new start at the Dolphins. So yeah, 33%. Emily: All right. Anything else Hilary: I don't think so. I you know, obviously each of those coaches has taken what they've learned and developed their own style of that. there's a lot of emphasis on the one running back, which does allow then for packages that include an extra tight end or an extra wide receiver to open up the playbook. Emily: All right. Well, before we move on, I want to add one more coaching tree. And that's Bill Belichick. I'm just gonna come out. I'm not a fan of Belichick. but I thought it'd be interesting to look into, he has a coaching tree as well. So how does how does he hold up? so he was a coach of the Patriots for 24 years. Hilary: Okay. Emily: Nine Super Bowl appearances, six wins, So that's that's a lot. So he's he's a great coach, right? He has a great coaching tree, right? Like, you know, same similar or not. So like similar to you know, Sean McVay, it's like everyone wants a piece of it. And for sure, owners were going, I want a piece of the Patriot Way, they call it, but Hilary: Or Mm-hmm. Emily: his coaching tree is considered to be a failure. aside from I guess Saban worked with Belichick and I think he did take learnings from Bill Belichick and of course Sabin it might be considered one of the best college head coaches of all time. But aside from Saban, there really isn't any coaching success stories. Only Bill O'Brien had a winning record with the Texans, and it was only 0.52. So 52 and 48 was his record. Hilary: People right, right. Emily: So he's got Romeo Cornell, Eric Mangini, Josh McDaniels, which was at a point three three seven. Matt Patricia, point three two, Joe Judge, Brian Dable. So Hilary: Ooh. Emily: all of them are in the point three ranges. Or Eric Mangini had a point point four winning percentage. So, I guess I do wonder so much parody in the NFL. I'm just curious whether Bill Belichick's Patriot Way really is a successful coaching philosophy, or how much of it was Tom Brady? Like he had Tom Brady for a really long time. Tom Brady leaves Tom Brady goes and wins a Super Bowl. So Bill Belichick, I'm not saying he's a bad coach. I would never say he's a bad coach. but I think based on my research, his coaching philosophy is hard to pass on or pass down to people. He has a very strict, surly attitude. And it has to be authentic. Like if you're gonna be that, you have to be authentically surly and not just like be mean because, you know, the coach you learned under was mean. supposedly there was lack of flexibility in the playbook. Hilary: Right. Emily: And I know I've read lots about how he would really over prepare for every matchup. And so that may be that he's putting in new plays. So I guess I don't know. I'm not saying I know, but supposedly the playbook was less about being flexible and more like specific to each opponent. So it would be hard to copy as another coach, is what I'm trying to say. and then he demanded roster control. And so, he handled that pretty well, I think, but not every coach is gonna be able to handle both of those things. So, Hilary: Nor is n Emily: again, Hilary: yeah, nor and l some franchises are the owner in GM gonna allow that either, right? I mean that's a Emily: Exactly. So, I won't go on, but yeah, Bill Belichick does not have a strong coaching tree. And I would be interesting to see if any other coaches get opportunities, especially now that he's no longer coaching, in the NFL. Hilary: Yeah. Did that surprise you that that his coaching tree Emily: That it wasn't strong. Hilary: Yeah, that it wasn't strong. That that they weren't able to replicate the same success level. Emily: I I don't think I was surprised. I mean, I remember Josh McDaniel s specifically and Matt Patricia specifically. And and so no, that didn't work and I remembered that. I think I was just surprised to see that you know, I wasn't sure what other coaches were actually associated with him. And when I looked out and saw that there just really wasn't Hilary: Yeah, Patricia, yeah. Emily: any success stories. I think that did did surprise me because you figure somebody's gonna hit somewhere. but coaching tree is important. The the art of coaching is important and learning from the best is important, I think. Hilary: Okay. Okay. Some something I want to talk about a little bit. Are are we ready to move on? Yeah? Okay. Something I wanted to talk about, and I don't know if this really fits kind of back into the coaching carousel or just coaching turnover in general. I had some questions about I'm gonna call it poaching talent from the winning teams. You know, you've got a team that goes to the Super Bowl. Obviously they had a super successful season and it seems like Emily: Yeah, let's move on. Hilary: After those really successful seasons, others in the NFL come calling either to take those offensive or defensive coordinators and and offer them a head coaching job or a different, coordinator job or whatever. And so I was wondering like, you know, what's the turnover and the fallout of that? And does it really, as we're talking about successful organizations and stuff, does it really make a difference? And I really thought that it would be a big deal. And so I dug into it a little bit and the statistics don't really support that either. So, you know, just going back a few years where Kansas City has been in the Super Bowl mix for three of those five years or whatever, Andy Reid is doing something right because Kansas City has lost almost no staff. People have just stayed. The Eagles also, you know, in that mix. and they actually, after they won the February 2023 Super Bowl, so at the end of the 2022 season, they lost both their offensive coordinator and their defensive coordinator. Those both went to head coaching positions, and the Eagles just moved on. They just had a 11 and 6 season the next year and went to the playoffs. And I mean, you know, they just kind of retooled and regrouped. And consistently that's been the same. in the Kansas City versus San Francisco 2024 Super Bowl. Kansas City kept everybody and went fifteen and two the next season. And the statistics just didn't pan out, which was Super interesting to me. So again, maybe that goes back to that front office and the stability of being able to be confident in your hires and bring, even when you do lose people, bring new people in. Or I guess I didn't look into do they promote from within, you know, and are they growing from the ground up? And so there's less turnover that way. I don't know. but I just thought it was a kind of interesting topic. Emily: Yeah, I think I'm surprised as well. I'm actually glad to hear it, given that our offensive coordinator was just poached. So there should be no drop off. I guess it also just speaks to the importance of the head coach and how good they are and whether they can keep it rolling. I guess I didn't really realize Andy Reid doesn't normally lose people. That's that's really interesting. Hilary: Mm-hmm. Not very many. I mean, I'm not gonna say there aren't any, right? But in general, it's a very stable coaching staff. Yeah. Emily: Yes in general. Yeah, I find that interesting. Are people just really wanting to stay because they love the environment? Or are other teams thinking that the success comes from Andy Reid and they don't trust those coaches to be able to replicate it? I don't know. Hilary: I don't know either. and I guess before we wrap up, I do want to talk about the coaching carousel for the NCAA because we've been spending a lot of time and energy on the NFL, but the NCAA coaching carousel is a real thing. And this year in the NCAA and what's called the FBS. which is the NCAA division one teams. There are 138 teams and they had 34 coaching changes. So that's just shy of 25%, which I know is kind of on par with the NFL turnover. And the current average tenure there is about three and a half years. But there are a couple big differences from the NFL that I think make it even more chaotic First off, it's more common for a head coach to take another job as a head coach. that doesn't, as we talked about, that doesn't happen that often in the NFL, but it is very common in the NCAA. and the other huge difference is in the NFL, when someone leaves one organization and goes to the other to be a head coach, they can take or often hire away other coordinators and things like that. But in the NCAA, the coach, when he changes teams, he also takes his players. the players can go with the coaches, they can enter the transfer portal. incoming players who have signed commitment letters, they can decommit and restart their recruiting process. So it's this big chain of fact that affects multiple programs. And I'm gonna give two examples here and then I again be done on this because this is like I think I have a little more passion for the NCIA maybe than you do. And this first one is just still burns in my heart because it affects the Washington Huskies. So after the 2023 season, Nick Sabin retired at Alabama. Kaelin DeBoer, after leading the Huskies to the NCIA championship game, left the Huskies to take the job at Alabama. That left the opening for the Huskies. So Jed Fish leaves the University of Arizona to come to Washington, which leaves the Arizona job open for Brett Brennan from San Jose State. And then San Jose State is open. So Ken Nam I'm gonna screw up his name, Nimatolo, who's a former coach at Navy, takes that job. Five teams. Right? And all you know, and all the players and stuff. Emily: Yeah. Hilary: Quick example from this year is Penn State fired James Franklin midseason. He got hired as a head coach at Virginia Tech. Matt Campbell left Iowa State to go to Penn State. Jimmy Rogers left Washington State to go to Iowa State. Kirby Moore was the offensive coordinator at Missouri and he goes to Washington State. And again, you've got five programs in turmoil. And so this time I looked up the numbers a little bit for player movement. And so with James Franklin going to Virginia Tech, forty-eight players from Penn State, who at that time didn't know who their head coach was gonna be, right? they all entered the portal and eleven of those ended up on the roster at Virginia Tech. So then as they backfill and the guy from Iowa State comes to Penn State, fifty-five Iowa State players hit the portal. Twenty-four of them are now at Penn State, and it just trickles down. Washington State had thirty-seven players hit the portal. I mean, the turn and turn here is super impactful. I don't know if there's a solution, but it's happening in the college levels too, And maybe more profound impact on the makeup of a team from year to year than in the NFL because of the ability for the players to change when their coaches move to a new position. Emily: Yeah, when you said that maybe I'm not as passionate about the NCAA, I feel like that's why. Like I think I used to be a huge college football fan, and I still do watch college football, we have to do a deep dive on the mess of the NCAA. I think it's a really interesting point that you've mentioned that coaches hop from team to team, which is not what they do in the NFL. Hilary: Mm-hmm. Emily: And it causes ripple effect. I think what's different more recently is players can now jump with them and it's just total chaos. But yeah, that is it is interesting to note that the NCAA coaches just hop around and it doesn't matter that they're still under contract because the new teams will just buy out their contract. Hilary: Correct. Right, right. And hey, something else we didn't talk about too is the trend more pronounced in history than now from head coaches in college to make the jump to the NFL, or for NFL coaches or coordinators who wanted to regroup and try something else to kind of use a stopping place in the college ranks as a chance to reset before coming back to the NFL. it's not as common now, but there are a couple people who were pretty successful at it. one of them was Jim Harbaugh. He coached at Stanford, then he went to the 49ers, then he went to Michigan, and now he's at the Chargers, and his NFL win loss rate is 66% and his NCAA win loss rate was 73% winning total. So Pretty successful in both venues. Pete Carroll is another one. the Jets, the Patriots went to USC and ran the USC juggernaut. Seahawks, then Raiders. NFL winning percentage 56%, NCAA 83%. the last guy who was super successful, who I kind of sort of forgot about, but I shouldn't have, is Jimmy Johnson. he was at Oklahoma. He was at Miami. And then he came to the NFL for the Cowboys and Dolphins. And his college win rate was 70%. lot both both Miami and Oklahoma were super strong teams under his leadership. And then his NFL winning percentage is fifty six percent. and then Emily: That seems pretty rare though. I feel like it's more it usually Hilary: yeah, it's really rare. Emily: doesn't work out. Hilary: Yeah. And so I did look up a couple who didn't work out. and one guy who's super fascinating, is Chip Kelly. he was considered the master of offense at Oregon. He, you know, was there four years. His record was 46 and seven. He had four bowl game appearances. And then he had the stint at the Eagles. For three years and one year at the 49ers, where he went two and 14. so he went back to college. He went to run the program at UCLA. He took a coordinator position at Ohio State, and now he's at Northwestern this year. So he's bounced around a lot and he's never really been able to replicate that original success that he had at Oregon. yeah, and then the other guy. Emily: poor chip. Hilary: is Urban Meyer, who, you know, was at Florida and Ohio State. And between those two programs, he has an NCAA, I don't know if it's all time or not, but his win loss record is 187 wins and 32 losses. I don't even know what percentage that is, but I mean that's crazy, right? And then he tried to coach Jacksonville and he went to an eleven. So that one, that transition didn't work either. Emily: Yeah, he was a one and done there. That was a disaster. Hilary: he was a one and done there. Yeah. Okay. And I'm gonna wrap it up with two pieces of trivia. There are three coaches who have won an NCAA title and a Super Bowl. Who are they? Emily: There's three of them as a head coach. Hilary: There's three. Yep. Emily: Jimmy Johnson is one, right? Hilary: Yes, he is. Yep, with the University of Miami and the Cowboys. Emily: Who are the other coaches you mentioned? Hilary: You should know this is Pete Carroll. Emily: of course my gosh. Hilary: And the last one is Barry Switzer with Oklahoma and the Emily: Okay. Hilary: Cowboys. Emily: Yeah, I'm not good at thinking on my feet. But yes, Pete Carroll and Barry Switzer. Yes. That's impressive for those three. Hilary: But only only three. Yep. Yeah, okay. Yeah. And then my last little bit of trivia, just University of Washington Husky's bit of trivia is Don James, the famous dog father at the UW, started at Kent State and his very first graduate assistant was Nick Saban. So Emily: Mm. Wow. Hilary: There's some legends there, for sure. Emily: All right. Well, that was a lot on coaching. I think that topic was really interesting really enjoyed talking with you today. Hilary: Yeah, I enjoyed talking with you too. And we'll be back soon with another unicorn football talk.