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When The Badge Becomes Who You Are — Eric Robinson · Dispatched & Dysfunctional

• Chris Stockton: All right, welcome back to Dispatch's Functional Real Calls, Real People, Real Conversations about the Weight We Carry. Today's episode is just a little bit different. No lights, no sirens, no chaotic scene. This is quieter than that, but honestly, this is the kind of stuff that sticks longer because we're talking about what the job does to you when you're not on the call. I think I got the wrong... no. I got Eric with me today. I'm going let him introduce himself and then we'll get into it. Eric, who are you and why did you choose to be here today? Eric Robinson: am a now retired FBI agent, spent 24 years investigating just about everything the FBI covers, got to do instruction in just about everything that we train agents in. Yeah, it was pretty badass. And got to spend 15 years as a SWAT operator. That's badass too. Chris Stockton: badass. ⁓ yeah. Eric Robinson: But just prior to that, I left the pulpit of the Baptist Church, preached my last sermon on Easter Sunday, 2002, and then I was in Quantico, Virginia the next Sunday to receive training at the FBI Academy. Chris Stockton: That is awesome. Eric Robinson: It was pretty cool. I never lost the awe of this is amazing. I get to do this. ⁓ you know, I'm in the FBI and there's a lot of tedious work and a lot of things I'd yell and scream about, but all along the way and now looking back, I'm like, that was pretty cool. They took this Baptist pastor, never touched a gun before. And you stuck them in the FBI and made them a SWAT operator. And then like, let's see what happens. And what happened was I had. quite a lot of run ins with some remarkable people and got to do some very intriguing things along the way too. Chris Stockton: And that's one of the reasons I've wanted you on is, you know, we talk, talk a lot about it as, you know, life goes on and we enjoy our jobs, but at the same time we get burned out on it and it starts to, you know, start our own trauma and have bad calls in our head that replays. ⁓ so. Eric Robinson: Well, and that's how I got into the FBI too, because I, I very much enjoyed doing ministry. That's what I felt like I was supposed to be doing, but I took on the burden of other people's problems. So, you know, just normal thing, Hey pastor, I've got this going on and it's hard. And sometimes it's, pastor, I've got this going on and I think it's destroying my life. And I took that on myself. And so because of that, I had. two straight years where every single day I had stress-related headaches. And then the day that I got accepted in the FBI, the headaches went away, so I thought that was the right choice. Chris Stockton: That makes sense. And that was actually my next question is why did you choose that lot of work? Eric Robinson: Well, I chose the line of work. It's funny because I wrote a book about my experiences and so a couple of the copy editors already have been saying I need to address this. Why did you choose the FBI? And I had texted a buddy who's still in the bureau this and he's like, cause it's cool. And I said, right. I thought everybody knew that. So back then I thought, ⁓ I need to do something different, something with less stress and ⁓ One place I applied for, I was overqualified and they turned me down. And the one, the other one I was probably under qualified for and they said, come on board. And it ended up being, I think a better fit for me along the way. Chris Stockton: I just wish I wasn't so damn old. I tried to apply and they said I'm too old. Eric Robinson: Yeah. Yeah. You got it. You have to get in before 37 because you have to be able to get your 20 years in and for some reason arbitrarily when you're 57, you can't shoot run or do cases anymore. So that was there. That's the thinking. Chris Stockton: backwards thinking but okay I mean I've seen 70 year olds run faster than I can ⁓ Eric Robinson: Yeah. ⁓ yeah, yeah. I'll get my pull up bar out here and we'll show you how it's done too. Chris Stockton: So, you know, people hear FBI SWAT, they picture all the action, but what's the reality of it? What are you actually doing out there whenever, you know, I know, I know there's some, but it can't be all that glamorous. Eric Robinson: Well, there's action. No, no, no, no. It's, ⁓ mean, if we did a movie about, you know, our SWAT team, it would be very long because, you know, you're showing up. So we would hit doors around 6 a.m. and I was working in the Cleveland division, but I'm near Toledo, Ohio. So it's a two, two and a half hour drive. I was getting up at 1 30 in the morning to get to drive across the state for an early show up, prepping the gear. ⁓ and then, and then we do our walkthroughs and rebrief and then we get set up. So yeah, those are some long days. And then, you know, there's other times like, Hey, we need you to be on hand in case we can do a drug dealer, do a drug deal. And then we want you to hit the house. And then like the doper would never show. And so, you know, here's me sitting around in my gear for four or five hours until I just go back home. there exactly. And then there's the exciting ones where we had one where we're clearing a house early on in my SWAT tenure. And a buddy of mine went to the top floor where there was a drape. And I mean, that's dangerous. So you're going through, can't see, you don't know who's there. Chris Stockton: Sweating your balls off or not? Eric Robinson: completely dark and he ended up stepping on the subject who was hiding under clothes and stuff and the guy had a shotgun with him too. So, you know, there's some exciting things like that. And then there's just the, you know, fortunately because we would come with 20 people, 15 people, armored vehicles, rifles, lasers, know, guys, our show force meant they were, the decision was made. They're, they're coming out. Chris Stockton: Shit. Right. We're going with you. One way or another. Yeah. So, you know, like you just said that they don't really have a choice. Um, and y'all don't have a choice to do the job. So that's not routine for them, but it's routine for y'all. So, you know, that that's the worst life of their, that's the worst moment of their life. And y'all do like to expect at the same time you're in control, you do the job. How do you make sure that you're professional and you keep. Eric Robinson: quietly. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Chris Stockton: empathy and humanity in it is my question. Eric Robinson: Yeah, no, for me it was easy. And there was always times, you you lose patience, know, guys would be resisting and starting to fight us. I remember one guy, you know, I ended up wrestling him to ground in the slush of the street. And then after we cuffed him, he was sitting on his backside and I, you know, kicked some slush down the crack of his ass and my buddy goes, I saw that and like, yeah, well, he pissed me off. Chris Stockton: Of course. Eric Robinson: But typically when I come to your house with 15 other guys and we tear open your door and I'm putting handcuffs on you and tell you, judge said I can take you to prison, I'm in charge. I don't need to prove to you I'm in charge. I just did. And so it's easy for me to like, even I was often able to have patience with people who start spouting off because like this is the worst day of your life. You got it exactly right. This is the worst day and I know what's going to happen next and you don't and you, people have these fears so if people want to pipe back at me, I'm like, yeah, I get it. I get it. You're trying to save face, it sucks. And then let's try to bring it back down. But generally speaking, myself, the other guys, like across the board, I think the FBI agents are seen as professional. would, by the people who were arresting, you know, I'd have people say thanks. know, it is, well, you want to talk about nuts. I had one subject's father thank me for executing a search warrant at their house because he couldn't control his kid. And he was afraid like we were that the kid was going to kill a lot of people. So he's like, hey, Chris Stockton: ⁓ yeah, very much so. nuts right there. Eric Robinson: Part of our search we found guns that the dad had hidden because he was trying to keep them away from his son. Chris Stockton: Damn, okay. Eric Robinson: That was the kind of threat that he was and how he, you know, dad couldn't control it. But Chris Stockton: That's awesome. That's an awesome feeling I bet sometimes too. Just to know that hey look we took this out of play. You know. Have you ever had a call that went the opposite? Eric Robinson: Yeah, well, I mean. Yeah, the opposite of that. mean, I worked crimes against children, which a lot of what we did was trying to rescue ⁓ teenage prostitutes from being manipulated by pimps. And, ⁓ you know, I wasn't being thanked by them. Yeah, I was getting slapped because I was arresting the love of their life. The only man that has ever showed them true affection. And so, you know, they're slapping, swearing, you know. Chris Stockton: Right of course. Eric Robinson: cursing at me, but I knew we were doing the right thing. again, I can get past that. They'll come around. They know, they'll know. Chris Stockton: Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. So on your forum for me, you mentioned a SWAT incident a shooting. Can you walk me through that one? Eric Robinson: Yeah, it was a year and a half ago. And we were called. So Swatz used when we certain threats hit a matrix of guy has past criminal history, guns, gang member, cameras, dogs, that type of a thing. But in this case, a supervisor asked if we could come and clear the house, arrest this 26 year old kid. because the terrain was little difficult and because the kid had some violent run-ins with police before. So agents are very well trained, but obviously SWAT's better trained. And then also, you we've got armored vehicles and better equipment. So it was me and my buddies, Jason and Steve from the SWAT team, we were called on to cover the Chris Stockton: Of course. Eric Robinson: the side in the back of the house with a tactical L so everybody knows their fields of fire. And pretty quickly from behind our armored SUV, I hear Steve yelling, put down the bat and we have contact rear. So this kid who, you know, he had some mental health problems. He was trading in child pornography. So there's a mental health problem there. So he, Chris Stockton: ⁓ shit. Yeah. Eric Robinson: he just continued to advance on us and advance on us. And, and we gave him every opportunity to put down the bat. And I, I even remember during that being pissed that as I was calling for a hands team, so that we could address him and maybe if you put the bat down, now we could rush him, that nobody responded. Like nobody came to us until finally he charged, came around, charged at us and ⁓ Steve and Jason both. employed deadly force. And what was remarkable about that is afterwards I asked Steve, how long do you think that took? And he's like, I don't know, maybe five minutes. And I go, yeah, that's what it seems like. But I bet you it's like one fifth of that. And the entire encounter was a minute and half long. And that's all it was. It just seemed like it went forever, slowly, slowly, slowly. along the way. You know, I'm, I'm, remember being, like I said, angry that teammates didn't come. That was our first, that was the first FBI shooting with body cams. We had gotten them not long before that. And so I reviewed and it was 10 seconds. That how I was pissed that guys didn't show up to help. It was a 10 second span, you know, and the guys had to, had to bound from another vehicle too. Chris Stockton: was a tenth of Eric Robinson: So. We engaged with medical care immediately. Like it took by the body cam 17 seconds for us to get tourniquets on. ⁓ Guys did remarkable job. The gift that keeps on giving as we found out later, the kid had AIDS. you know, everybody, everybody was full of blood was like getting checked. But, you know, you ask about how it affects you. Chris Stockton: ⁓ shit. Eric Robinson: You can tell me the minute when we got into that engagement with the kid, because I was wearing my heart rate monitor and you can see that spike where it goes up to 178. So, you know, there's a little back and forth like, you know, hey, I'm getting ready, carrying gear. So, you know, the heart rate goes up to a hundred or whatever. But then that that that mountain peak and it and fortunately, then it went back down. Chris Stockton: 178 ⁓ yeah. Right. Eric Robinson: Like it went up immediately and then we got a job to do. Now let's calm down and go through that. Chris Stockton: They train y'all for that, don't they? Eric Robinson: The training is being there. The training is knowing that the guys next to me are very competent. They can do what they need to do. So, you know, that spike isn't fear. The spike is I have, my body has to be ready to engage. ⁓ And then my body's like, okay, well, we still got to clear a house now. And I don't need all this extra energy for clearing a house. So let's bring it down a bit. ⁓ Chris Stockton: Adrenaline. Eric Robinson: the effect that that had on me was not terrible. Because I remember thinking, like, I was mainly angry that this kid, why did you do this? Why did you force this? But the one thing that played out that night in my head as I was trying to sleep, my mind kept going over and over because it was trying to do it again, but this time we didn't have to kill the kid. And obviously it didn't work. And so here my mind goes until finally I'm like, stop it. Stop trying to do this. Go to sleep. So that's what I dealt with. Chris Stockton: Yeah, I bet and did that how long so you only dealt with that for what one or two nights is what you said Eric Robinson: Yeah, yeah, it wasn't bad. was, you know, it wasn't an ugly scene. It was different, you know. I remember calling out like, hey, we got exit wounds, you know, on upper back. ⁓ But a lot of it was the bonding that came out of that, which was quite good that, you know, we, we had employee assistants come in. I had worked employee assistants before when I was in Chicago division. and they did a great job. So when you go in and you say, hey, everybody's got to talk to a counselor, people are like, I don't want to. Well, this was our team leader saying, hey, we're going to get together and we're just going to talk about this. And so we go, let's go around the room. How did this, you know, what did you remember? Just talk about what you remember. you know, if you want to talk about how you felt, you can do that, but just, you know, what went on for you? What did you see? And that was good. And I remember when we did that too because it was me Steve and Jason like we were there and we're going around the room and you know Here's 25 guys and they go. All right, Matt tell this tell about how you affected how this affect you I'm like the hell Matt wasn't even there And that's like well, it was hard because I wasn't there for my buddies and like, okay I get it we're going around and I'm looking at my my team leader Ben. I'm like What the hell Ben like Chris Stockton: What the hell is this? Eric Robinson: I'm I'm like, you're making me last like the kid died at my feet. Like, why am I last? He's like, ⁓ he told me later. He's like, I thought you'd make a joke to kind of break the tension and that'd be a great way to finish it. Okay. But here I am watching everybody else share their emotions. Like you were in the bear cat. Like, you know, this was right in front of me, but that was handled very well in a way that people are just invited to organically talk. And nobody's crying, but we're reliving the moment and sharing it together. Chris Stockton: Sounds like a proper debrief to me. That's what that sounds like. And if that would happen more often, that'd be a lot better for all of us. Eric Robinson: Yeah, and we do our after actions after every operation too, and those are holding people accountable. know, guys don't have to, I mean, nobody's like calling out this guy because that guy is calling himself out first in the after action. that's, that accountability was very apparent, especially on the SWAT team. Chris Stockton: Right. That's pretty fucking awesome right there. That's cool. Eric Robinson: It's good. So I tell this story as well. Ben, our team leader, great guy. And we were doing an arrest where we had to hit two places. We're clearing them for a search warrant, but the subject could be at this one. He also had a second apartment. So we go to the first one. Subject jumps out of the second story window and breaks containment. Fortunately, Chris Stockton: All right. Eric Robinson: some task force officers were there and tackled him. His brother also jumped out the window, even though we didn't have a warrant for him and he broke his back, but there's that. So we clear that, then we move on to the second place, which clearly is, you know, it's an empty apartment. There's nothing there. And so while we're going through, I'm like, it's hot in here. And I start turning down the thermostat and Ben starts barking at me. Like quit messing around with the thermostat while we're still clearing the house. I'm like, okay. Like there's nothing for me to do. But he was pissed because he felt like he didn't set up containment well. And so you don't expect the kid to jump out of a second story window, but you need to be ready for that. And he was just taking it out on me. And on my ride home from that op, Ben's calling me up, says, hey, man, I apologize. I was just letting it out. And that came from the leadership. Like, even in this small thing, I made a mistake. I made a mistake in the planning. And then I made a mistake in how I reacted to you. And I'm going to own that. So I appreciate it. It was good example. Chris Stockton: That – again, that needs to happen more often in all response. If – that – I've never heard someone do something like that before. That's awesome. ⁓ lord, stupid phone. And on your forum – I don't know why I wrote this question like this – in your forum for some reason it's about cynicism. So where do you start seeing people start to drift off? Eric Robinson: Well, this was something I caught early in myself. And then you have to keep being aware that I worked Mexican cartels in Chicago for the first five years. And what that meant was every phone tap that we were on, we were listening to Mexicans. Yes, some legally here, some not, but all doing illegal things of selling drugs. The subject was dirty. He was Mexican. He's talking to somebody else that we wouldn't charge, but is helping him in small ways. And he's Mexican and he's dirty. everybody, you know, this restaurant owner lets him store stuff there sometimes. This guy's giving him a ride. And all of these Mexicans are helping our main subject. And I had to talk to a buddy of mine who shared some similar Christian values. I'm like, Dude, I don't like how all that I see are Mexicans who are criminals because it's making me think all Mexicans are criminals. And it's a similar thing that we get into, you do law enforcement work and everybody that you look at is a criminal and some of are terrible. And it's hard not to think, man, society's messed up when all that you look at all the time. are criminals. So for me, that took a lot of just self reflection of saying, you got to be careful. Be realistic of what this is. This is, you your focus, when you work at a zoo, you're going to see animals a lot, but not everybody sees animals all the time. So when you're looking at criminals all the time, and the terrible things that humanity does, it's easy to think people are terrible. So that was something for me to just be aware of and keep in mind not to slip into that. Chris Stockton: So on that note, do you think that's more of a defense mechanism or survival mechanism to be able to help yourself in the end or Eric Robinson: ⁓ yeah, yeah, yeah. If like, because all that I saw were criminals, all that I saw in Chicago among Mexicans were criminals too. Well, then your mind says, well, if this is bad, then you need to be wary of it. But the truth is beyond that. so rather than holding to that heuristic of I'm going to associate these two together because That's life saving in a natural selection sort of way. I need to open up the second level thinking that truly I am focused on Mexican drug dealers. So that's what I will see. I am focused on people in my community. So yeah, it is a life saving function and not all life saving functions are good for you. Like they help you in this moment, but You need to recognize where this moment starts and stops. Like my heart rate spiking, it needed to. Because I was possibly about to get into a fight. I was needing to act. So if I spike, and then it just plateaus, and it stays at 178 for the next hour and a half, well, then I'm dead. So we need to know what are these life-saving measures, what's keeping us safe, and then do we still need them in this moment or do we need to reflect on it? Chris Stockton: I'm sure in the end that's kind of a switch you got to flip on and off and might become a pain in the ass at times as well but you know. So. So did this ever affect anything in your personal life, like your family or anything like that? Did the job ever come home with you at all? Eric Robinson: No. I tried to make sure it didn't. When I was in the FBI Academy, one of my instructors says, you guys, you gotta be careful, man, because being the FBI, it'll ruin families. I'm on my fifth marriage. I'm like, no, man, that's you. That's you. So there's many nights that I didn't come home. There's many mornings I didn't see the kids go to school. There's a few things that I miss, but I wasn't gone for birthdays and stuff like that. But when I missed those, I think the kids and my wife knew, ⁓ OK, this is important because every other time, Dad's available. Because I didn't go to the bars after work. didn't spend all day decompressing, just watching football and say, leave me alone, or golfing. I tried to make myself available for the family so that when I couldn't, it was understandable. And I've never gotten this from the kids, but I think that showed like, dad's available enough. You know, they're not singing cats in the cradle. I'm around for the important things. I'm around almost all the time. So if I'm not, then. OK, it's understandable, makes sense, it's excusable. Chris Stockton: you. That's awesome. I love that you Eric Robinson: I Remind me, gotta text the kids. Text the kids and make sure it's true. Chris Stockton: So is your family what kept you grounded during all this or was it something else that kept you grounded? Eric Robinson: Yeah, it was the family. I mean, that made for normalcy where, know, wow, that was wild how, you know, we just were in a car chase and now I'm coming home and, you know, how's the kids and it brought it back to what normal life would be. ⁓ And then. getting to share those stories with the wife as much as I could or with the kids. Oddly, the kids, I would tell them stories and they're like, okay. And I'm like, hey, you ever want me to talk to your school? Like, yeah, not really. And the kids never really thought it was cool. I'm like, how do you not think this is cool? Your dad's in the FBI. He's on SWAT. Do you understand what that means? Other kids would be thinking you're awesome and then, nah. Chris Stockton: You Eric Robinson: I'm not gonna tell him like, ⁓ my gosh, okay. I'd be pulling that all the time. Chris Stockton: It's funny because my kids don't want me to to their school or when they were in middle school and elementary, they're like, no, we don't want you to to school. I'm like, why? You're going to embarrass us. How? Oh, you're going to talk about brains and bones and blood, guts. I'm like, okay. And? Eric Robinson: Yeah. Yeah. But there's a lot of the kids are gonna go that's cool Chris Stockton: That's what I'm like. I was like, they would think that's cool. And then my wife harped in once because we got kicked out of a restaurant because I was telling about a gay couple that decided to play with a frozen sausage and got stuck together. And we got kicked out of a barbecue restaurant because of speaking and other customers thought that was inappropriate. Eric Robinson: Mm-hmm. little too loudly. Yeah. Well, it's hard to argue. It's hard to argue that that's not inappropriate. Chris Stockton: Well, I mean, come on now. Eric Robinson: Well, when sausage is probably on the barbeque's menu as well, like that's... Chris Stockton: I mean, was a day after the call that I had to get out of my head. Eric Robinson: Right, absolutely. And that's what I tell people that author Kim Petrone says that stories are how we deal with trauma. And I think that's how agents dealt with it. And it's not just telling the gross stuff or the terrible stuff. That's mixed in with the other things. But when we talk about that implicit, I'm not saying this. Chris Stockton: Right. Good stuff. Eric Robinson: But implicit is, yeah, we just made it through that. We got through and we're still here. And I had a buddy call me the other day, you know, and we're just, you I was crying because I was laughing so hard of talking about the things we'd been through. we had a case where a terrorist, ⁓ honest to God terrorist wanted to kill his judge. And so part of what we did to catch him, he was still in jail and he was We had an informant call an undercover who was going to kill his judge. He's going to be, it's going to be a murder for hire. And so we needed, we needed someone to play the role of the judge in the photo that we're going to show. So we'd superimpose, you know, our, our magicians would do the work of superimposing the head of this 72 year old Lebanese frail man. And I told my buddy, said, and naturally. You know, when we needed a body double for that old man, picked you. He's like, not wrong. But you know, just, just laughing at the, at the crazy ways that we deal with stuff. had that same buddy. was saying, yeah, yeah. Remember when we played the game, dancing grandma, we would do, well, we, so I come to, I come to AJ. Yeah. I come to my buddy, AJ. We're doing this. Chris Stockton: I'm on that one. Eric Robinson: breaching school where 50, 60 guys would come tackle officers and they want to learn how to breach. And was very popular, we do great. And we had different stations. So guys would come to my station and then they'd go to AJ's station. And I'd find somebody who liked joking around. And I said, hey, you see that scrawny guy over there? It looks like a 72 year old Lebanese man. I said, when you get to him, you got to ask him about his dancing grandma. The story is hilarious. And I play this joke all the time in college. So the guy'd go over and he's like, hey, I hear you got something funny about a dancing grandma. And my buddy would go, yeah, she has diabetes. She just had her feet taken off. That's funny. That's hilarious, man. And the dude would just go, ⁓ my gosh, that guy's like, I'm kidding. So, and that's how you deal with this stuff. Chris Stockton: Yeah, this is true. You gotta have a sense of humor in this lot of work. mean, if you don't, you wind up to be one of the casualties of your own self and it sucks. I'm sure you've lost buddies. I know I have as well, you know, their demons fight that get to them and you know. Eric Robinson: It's usually the compounding or the merging, the intermixing of personal things too. So, you know, the work makes personal stuff hard, personal stuff goes bad and you bring it to work. Now you get in trouble at work and now you're bringing it back home and it goes around. yeah, mixtures of all that. Chris Stockton: ⁓ yeah. Very true. So I know you said you're a pastor. So did faith play a role in your work as well as an FBI agent? Eric Robinson: Absolutely. So I did not feel it was much of a stretch at all to think that I was still doing God's work because there's a need for justice. God wants that. And if you have a crime be set upon you, The church can do so much. Like we can pray, you know, can bring a casserole over, but you're not going to get justice. You need law enforcement for that. And so I felt like I was doing God's work just in a different way. So I always told the kids like, if you just have a job, that's noble. Taking care your family, that's noble. If you have a job, that pays you and you get to bring a service to other people, that's doubly noble. Like you get to feel honor about what you're doing and you get a paycheck to take care of your family. And I got to do both in both of my careers. Like I got paid and I got to do things that were helping the community. Chris Stockton: I feel you on that one. that's that actually to me makes our jobs better than anything because you are helping your fellow man. And that's the biggest thing. Eric Robinson: Right? Right? Yeah! It you know, like you said, it's difficult sometimes Some of these things other people couldn't do Sometimes you don't want to do it, but you're doing you're stepping into a place That is makes our world better So it's doubly noble. It's Chris Stockton: So this is a strange question that just popped in my head. Have you ever had an arrestee or a detainee ask you to pray with them or anything like that while you're going through any of this? Eric Robinson: I've prayed, I had a buddy in Chicago and we would pray before a rest sometimes. ⁓ I had one criminal ask my partner for a hug, which was he was reading the room wrong because that was the last guy who would give him a hug too. ⁓ So that was strange. I don't think I've ever had somebody. But part of what I did do was take principles from ministry, which Chris Stockton: hug. Eric Robinson: In some ways I learned them in ministry, but a lot of it was like, this is just me of just treating people with humanity and respect. That got, there was never a time that I regretted that. Cause if I needed to flip the switch, cause you're being an asshole, I can flip the switch. It's not hard, but that's like, you know, when you call to Verizon to, you know, complain about something, like if you start up on the phone yelling and being bitchy, There's nowhere to go from there, but you can always amplify if you need to, but like, let's start out, hey, Karen, I've been having this problem. Can you help me? And we would, that's how we treat people. it's, you know, working with the victims, I would win an audience that way, talking to informants, men and women that are sticking their necks out for us, you know, I got to treat them kindly. And then even the criminals. Chris Stockton: Yeah, like you said a minute ago, you don't have to become an asshole to do the job right or do the job well. Eric Robinson: No, I can if I need to. But you get further. So as you stated very well, this is the worst day of their life. If I present to them like, hey, I get it, man. I've done this a thousand times, so I know what's next. I can help you through this. They're going to be more open. Like I'm literally going to be their savior, their guide here to say. Look, you'll get an attorney. Doesn't matter if you can afford one. The court makes sure you're gonna get an attorney and you're gonna talk to him and this will start making more sense. And so they see, okay, this guy's looking out for me. And a lot of times they find themselves telling me stuff that they know they shouldn't be telling me, but well, here we are. But at the same time, I am being kind to them. I'm helping them through a very stressful situation. Chris Stockton: And in my mind that helps that that was probably because of like you said earlier your faith your your humanity I bet that actually got gave you a better concept in your own mind of I am helping these people I am You know actually not being a dick. I'm I'm sitting here trying to do the best I can for this guy who's done that God knows what? Eric Robinson: Well, yeah, and there's some, like when we hit the pedophiles, like there's so many guys telling me like, ⁓ I could never do that, because I just want to put a bullet in their head. I'm like, yeah, these guys are pathetic, man. Like they are absolutely doing horrible things. But I don't have to tell them they're disgusting. They already think that. Like they hate themselves more than most people do, because they know what they're doing is horrible. which is why they're very dangerous, because they're the ones like the kid who the last words he said to us were kill me because he doesn't like, he's not proud of what he does by trading in child pornography. So, you know, at that point, look, man, these guys are going to confess. If you just show them a little compassion, they'll, they'll be willing to tell you cause they hate themselves. Chris Stockton: That sucks for them. mean, but like you said, it's a mental disability in my opinion. It really is. Yeah. Eric Robinson: It's a trauma. Almost every time it's a trauma. So when we go and talk to kids who have that these guys have acted out on. Man, they need to get help or they're going to be that guy in 25 years because. That's you know, that's how he came to be the way he is. Chris Stockton: So it's like a recurring cycle almost. Eric Robinson: Yeah, yeah. Here's someone who's sexually sexually abused many times. Here's a guy who's sexually abused as a child and that's how it plays out. He is stunted at that eight years old where you know his uncle, priest, whatever sexually abused him. Now that's what he's attracted to. He still is. Chris Stockton: I didn't know that. Damn that sucks. Eric Robinson: Yeah, it does. Chris Stockton: So I made a Facebook post for everybody and I only got one question. ⁓ And I was asked how, I asked people what they wanted to know and this is the one that came up is how does an agency like the FBI rebuild trust when people see it as political or disconnected? Eric Robinson: Well, we can't if that's how people see us. This is the issue. That's a great question because it needs to be, I want to answer it. The things that people see that they don't trust, that's not the FBI that they know. There are two FBIs. There's DC and there's the 99.5 % of the rest of the FBI. And that is who comes knocking at your door That's the one who comes with a notebook and a pen. So even though agents are engaged with some of these things, it's coming down from DC. So you like what Trump's doing, you don't like what Trump's doing, you like what this attorney general has, you don't like this, you prefer the last one. There are influences that come that trickle down to some degree into that field work of the FBI. But otherwise, the men and women working, the agents, the analysts, the support operations specialists, everyone, they're just looking to keep their community safe and to work what's right in front of them. They're working healthcare fraud cases. They're trying to stop a terrorist, like someone who's actually going to be a mass shooter. They're working. drug cases, like drugs, drugs don't care who's in who's the attorney general. Drugs don't care who's the director of the FBI. So there'll be different focuses, but everything else is the same FBI. When Trump was in office in his first term, there was, I'll just say an appetite for finding Antifa, but then it wasn't We weren't told go find them, but we were encouraged. But it's the same as any case. Like if they're out there, they're out there. If they're looking to do crime, hurt people, destroy things, then you can arrest them. If they're not, then you can't. so you just, you you can't do anything about it. If I come up to you and say, you want to buy drugs from me? And you say, no, like, okay, then there's not going to be a drug arrest. That's how it goes. Chris Stockton: Leave a lot. Eric Robinson: So hopefully, to your followers question, like, whatever you see, you realize that's just gonna change. That's just gonna keep going. And the Bureau is gonna, the best people that I know, this includes church folks, were in the FBI. They are dedicated to doing what's right, following the laws, doing it properly. Chris Stockton: I can see. I think my dad, he's former military when he was alive, he told me the best way he could ever could have is, you know, we all perceive the military, the FBI, CIA, all them because of the media. And if it wasn't so much for the media, there would be so much more trust in our military or, or FBI or CIA, all of it, because they only cover the bad. They never cover the good. Eric Robinson: right right and and and you can and and it's not a lie this is bad the FBI did this and they shouldn't have and and the military did this and they shouldn't have right and then there's the 95 % of what they do otherwise which is in line proper so yeah yeah have have the right perspective of you know look I was out there like one of the last things I was doing was Chris Stockton: and helping everybody. Eric Robinson: trying to help a buddy from another division catch a kid who was, when I say kid, like mid twenties, like someone who was likely to be a mass killer and working as hard as I can to insert informants into this kid's life so we can determine what he's up to and how we might be able to catch him. That's what the FBI is doing. The rest of it, the rest of it is what's going to grab headlines. Chris Stockton: That's cool. Oh yeah, and that's the biggest thing is, you know, social media and media period to me has been the decline of humanity. It's no one gives a shit about Bob or Joe saved somebody. They, Oh, well this guy killed someone that that's why you need to know the why the how and everything behind it. Not just what the media tells you, not what everyone feeds you. The propaganda that everyone feeds everybody else is so ridiculous because like you said, 99 % of the agents are good. There's that 1 % that make that 99 % horrible. Eric Robinson: Yeah. Nope, they're out there. Chris Stockton: ⁓ yeah, that's every job. I mean, don't get me wrong on that. That's every job. That's medics, that's police, you know, hell even cashiers. I've known cashiers that just sit there and take money out the drawer, you know. So it's every field. that's the other thing is just because of spotlights on law enforcement and, you know, first responders period, it's not something Eric Robinson: Absolutely. Chris Stockton: that the world needs to view like they do anymore. They need to take off the blinders. They need to stop listening to the bullshit and actually start listening to people who have lived it, who have done things like you. You you've sat there and helped God knows how many people and you're still here. You're you're a pastor. So they, know, you're you're a man of God. You you have all of this behind you and no one sees it because you're behind a curtain. Eric Robinson: Yeah. Well, now they know. Chris Stockton: And that's a sad thing, you know? Right, but you know what I'm saying, it's just. It's like I've had some that, you know, calls that I wish I didn't have, but it is what it is in the end. And that's really all our job is in the end is at end of the day, it's who trusts us, who doesn't trust us. It's the trust comes down when we show up. Eric Robinson: Yeah. Well, you don't get to select, I only get to deliver babies and, you know, ⁓ give, ⁓ stitches to a kid. Some of it's going to be gruesome. And, but people, I can speak for those in the FBI. They're the ones who are willing to step forward and do the stuff that gets the good headline sometimes. And sometimes do the stuff that gets no recognition, but damn, that was dangerous. Chris Stockton: So is there any question or anything you wish someone would have told you earlier before joining the FBI? Eric Robinson: Yeah, for me it was the two years that I had those headaches that I wish I had gone back in time and said, hey, ⁓ stop fighting. Just this is going to be good. Move on. ⁓ And then I'd look at myself from the future and go, damn, you look good still, man. What are you doing? That's some good stuff. Chris Stockton: Time travel. Is that something that you can't say sir? Eric Robinson: Exactly! Sorry, I must go. ⁓ yeah. No time travel for us. Chris Stockton: So how do you know you need to ask for help when you're in our fields is a good question. I want to ask you as well. Eric Robinson: So for me, I'll say this, it's a little off of your question, but there were times and different people that I work with that I trusted that I would confide in, or I would say, if you ever see me stepping out of line, I'm asking you, I'm not just giving you permission, I'm asking if you would ⁓ pull me aside. And I'm gonna take that as, yep, you're right, I need to, like I'm losing my cool, or I'm doing something I shouldn't be doing. And so you, I think you need to have people that you're going to turn to that you say, man, if you see, if you see me. Acting strangely or you know, I welcome you I'm asking for you to check in with me and so you need to have that you know that swimming buddy where checking this make sure they're not taking in too much water and That's what needs to be done in the cool moments where we're good right now, you know, I'm not stressed. I'm not freaked out I'm not you know, super depressed so Hey, you and me, ⁓ you do whatever you want, but I'm asking if you would be somebody who would check in on me and ask me questions about like what I'm thinking about. Like I said, with that cynicism, like, hey, is this getting to you? You know, what are you thinking through? Do you find yourself judging people? And it needs to be somebody who's self-reflective and has some emotional intelligence themselves as well. You know, I like joking around, but I think guys know if they want to talk to me, they can definitely talk to me and we can joke around another time. Chris Stockton: That actually answered the question perfectly. It didn't go off topic at all. So, you know, one final question for you is how did you stay human during all this? You know, how did you, like you said earlier, I know you said you stayed, you know, humanly humanity and purposeful with Christ and all that, but how did it not seep into you to where it just turned you into something else? Eric Robinson: Good, good, good, good. superhuman strength. ⁓ Yeah, I think it takes Chris Stockton: Hulk. Eric Robinson: In some ways, like there was a lot of variety in what I got to do. So I think that helped. I worked crimes against children for a couple of years. I've got a buddy who's been working it for a lot of years, ⁓ which just reminds me I need to check in on him because that's the kind of thing they can get to you. But getting to move around and having good people to support me, I felt like going to work was often My kids would say, you hate your job. I'm like, no, I don't. love it. So now you're always complaining. And I'd say, well, because I know what it can be. And so I want it to be the best. But going to work was, I got to be among some of the best people. So, you know, they were the ones that inspired me in many ways. I would have, like by the time I became the senior agent, I'd been on 20 some years. Here comes two new agents to our office and man, they're just like hungry, let's go get it. And I'm like, yeah, okay, good. Because once you've been on for 20 years, you're like, know, I've seen, like they don't bother asking, it's not gonna work, don't bother trying this. You you get cynical, but they're like, yeah, I'm hungry, let's go after them. I'm like, okay, yeah, all right, man. You're getting me excited too. Chris Stockton: I'm Eric Robinson: And that was helpful. And then I'm even learning from them. They're coming to me, but I'm going to them as well. And then they end up coming on the SWAT team as well. So, you know, boom, inspiration to me there also. So that helped. Chris Stockton: That's another thing I wish a lot more people would realize is we can all learn from each other. That's something that I wish more people would honestly understand and come to terms with because that's honestly the new guys could teach the old guys something. And of course the old guys could teach the new guys something, but you know. Eric Robinson: ⁓ so many times. mean, there's guys who are like, it's not just the philosophical, know, hey, I can learn from YouTube. Like some of these guys are coming with like just new techniques and tools that, you know, I got head down doing it this way. Like, well, have you ever checked into this website and it'll tell you how to do this? I'm like, I had never heard of that before. So what is this facsimile machine you speak of? This sounds interesting. Chris Stockton: Right. Eric Robinson: So yeah, both from the inspiration and techniques, but also just different. just different mindsets, which is good to have ⁓ a diverse group. like, hey, here's a guy, a pastor, this guy was a cop. Here's a woman. Here's a guy who grew up in the South. Like boom, boom, boom, we've got different ways to tackle this. Chris Stockton: Yes, sir. So if someone's listening right now at 2 a.m. still on the job, not okay, but not falling apart either. What would you tell them? Eric Robinson: Reach out and get through this moment and then promise yourself after you get through this moment that you're going to set things up to make yourself safe in the future, as we talked about. Find that person that's gonna get you through right now and then make sure that you are prepared for what's inevitable and that is difficult times ahead. Chris Stockton: Very true. I really appreciate coming on because again, this wasn't all chaos, some chaos, but not a lot. You know, this was the stuff that actually sticks. And I think a lot of people are going to hear this and realize they're a little deeper in the job than they thought. Before we wrap up, if people want to learn more about you, reach out or bring you in to speak, where can they find you? Where can they find your book? Anything like that. Eric Robinson: Okay, so, is getting published in the fall. My wife's company, Weaving Influence, has a publishing wing. However, darn it, paying customers have jumped ahead of me in line. ⁓ but we're going through, well, no, because that puts food on my table too. ⁓ But ⁓ the book is also with the FBI right now. Chris Stockton: Damn them. Eric Robinson: because they have to read it to make sure that I'm not giving away state secrets, which I'm not. But folks can follow me on my Instagram, which is underscore Eric underscore Robinson should be simple. It'll look like this guy or find me on LinkedIn. The book is irreverent from saving souls to chasing sinners in the FBI. it has some, I think it's got some great stories. So If this was fun, with some heart, talking about what happens if you take a pastor and plop him in the FBI and some of the remarkable stuff that I got to do. I think people will like it. they like, if they're listening to you, they're gonna like it because it's this kind of stuff. Yeah. Chris Stockton: I you. I'll make sure I get all that added up in the description as well whenever I get done. So again, thank you for everything. Let me go ahead and hit stop real quick. I got to figure out how to hit stop.