Latest / Beautifully Complex / 371: How Honesty (Not Reassurance) Is What Gets Your Kid Through Middle School, with Dr. Kim Pinckney

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371: How Honesty (Not Reassurance) Is What Gets Your Kid Through Middle School, with Dr. Kim Pinckney · Beautifully Complex

0:01
Speaker 1: One day your kid is little, the next it seems
0:04
Speaker 1: they're taller, their voice may have changed, and everyone around
0:08
Speaker 1: them is suddenly a friend, whether that's actually true or not.
0:14
Speaker 1: Middle school and puberty hit fast, but the build up
0:17
Speaker 1: starts long before we notice it. And if we're not
0:20
Speaker 1: honest with our neurodivergent kids about what's really happening in
0:25
Speaker 1: their relationships, we can leave them dangerously unprepared for it.
0:30
Speaker 1: I'm talking with doctor Kim Pinkney, instructional designer, special ed advocate,
0:35
Speaker 1: and mom of a neurodivergent son, about the early signs
0:39
Speaker 1: to watch for, the language that quietly sets kids up
0:43
Speaker 1: to get hurt, and how to help them find their
0:48
Speaker 1: real people, their true friends. I'm Penny Williams, and this
0:55
Speaker 1: is beautifully complex. Welcome everyone. I am thrilled to have
1:02
Speaker 1: doctor Kim Pinkney with me here on the podcast to
1:06
Speaker 1: talk about middle school and puberty. I feel like I
1:10
Speaker 1: have to whisper right right, I go, oh, no, this
1:14
Speaker 1: is gonna be tough, right, But and it is, and
1:17
Speaker 1: that's why we're here talking about it. So before we
1:20
Speaker 1: jump into it, will you just let everybody know who
1:23
Speaker 1: you are and what you do.
1:24
Speaker 2: I sure, will, and thank you so much for having
1:27
Speaker 2: me Penny. You know, I've been a fan of your
1:29
Speaker 2: work and even before I got into sort of my
1:32
Speaker 2: advocacy work when I was like a struggling parent trying
1:34
Speaker 2: to figure out what the heck I needed to do.
1:36
Speaker 2: You are such a voice in this space for me
1:39
Speaker 2: in a sense like a resource and also just like
1:41
Speaker 2: a person like I just I just rescricted you as
1:45
Speaker 2: a person because sometimes it can feel lonely. So thank you.
1:49
Speaker 1: I'm so glad.
1:50
Speaker 2: Yeah, I am a doctor, Kim Pinkney, and I am
1:53
Speaker 2: an instructional designer. I'm a performance improvement coach as well
1:57
Speaker 2: or consultant and as well as an instructional design and
2:00
Speaker 2: are focused on inclusive education and special education advocacy. But
2:04
Speaker 2: most importantly, I'm the mom of a nord urgent kiddo
2:07
Speaker 2: who has been my biggest inspiration and biggest teacher through
2:10
Speaker 2: all of this and really sort of changed the trajectory
2:13
Speaker 2: of my professional life and personal life and all of
2:16
Speaker 2: those things. So I did start out you know, as
2:20
Speaker 2: a I I'm still K through twelve certified as an educator,
2:25
Speaker 2: and I was a middle school teacher, and so it's
2:28
Speaker 2: one of the reasons why I'm sort of passionate about
2:31
Speaker 2: the middle school landscape. And when I entered the middle
2:34
Speaker 2: school sort of environment as an educator, it was great
2:39
Speaker 2: because I was still young enough to appreciate the budding sarcasm,
2:43
Speaker 2: you know, I mean, in some ways, you know, had
2:45
Speaker 2: a baby face, and so it was sort of blended
2:47
Speaker 2: in they saw me more as certainly the teacher, but
2:51
Speaker 2: someone that they could also relate to. I still felt
2:54
Speaker 2: like I had my pulse on what was hot, you know,
2:56
Speaker 2: with that what they were into. And it was also
3:00
Speaker 2: a wild ride. Right when you're teaching middle school. You
3:04
Speaker 2: have some kids that come in and their babies, right,
3:07
Speaker 2: and some kids that are like grown grown, and it's
3:11
Speaker 2: a whole trajectory of hormones and levels of maturity and
3:17
Speaker 2: levels of responsibility, levels of really getting into executive function
3:22
Speaker 2: and where you're really starting to see some of that
3:24
Speaker 2: executive dysfunction show up. And I felt like it was
3:29
Speaker 2: a really good primer for me, Like I felt like
3:31
Speaker 2: I had it and really understood all the ins and
3:33
Speaker 2: outs of what that sort of puberty landscape was. And
3:37
Speaker 2: you know, when you're twenty something, you can take that
3:39
Speaker 2: with the grain of salt. Right, like they weren't my kids,
3:42
Speaker 2: so I'm just I'm helping them, right, I'm supporting them
3:45
Speaker 2: and not feeling like emotionally so tied in such a
3:49
Speaker 2: super connected heart space way as if it were my
3:53
Speaker 2: own kiddo. And then I will tell you that, you know,
3:55
Speaker 2: having my own kiddo, who I feel like overnight just
3:59
Speaker 2: entered puberty space. It seems like I looked at the hallway
4:03
Speaker 2: one day and I was like, wait, how are you
4:05
Speaker 2: eye level with me? And now you're taller than me?
4:07
Speaker 2: And where did that voice come from? That? So it
4:09
Speaker 2: just I felt like its knuck up on me, even
4:11
Speaker 2: though I knew it was coming and knew all the signs.
4:15
Speaker 2: And then having a kiddo of my own in puberty
4:17
Speaker 2: was really a wake up call and then gave me
4:20
Speaker 2: yet another layer of like how to think about all
4:24
Speaker 2: of the things we do and need to do to
4:25
Speaker 2: support and advocate for our kids, all the things we
4:27
Speaker 2: do and then need to do and maybe shift in
4:30
Speaker 2: the public school setting because it doesn't actually happen overnight. Yeah,
4:35
Speaker 2: it is a build up. So yeah, that's a little
4:38
Speaker 2: bit about me.
4:39
Speaker 1: Yeah, how do we identify that build up? Because I
4:42
Speaker 1: feel the same as you one day this kid was
4:46
Speaker 1: taller than me or was you know, and it does
4:49
Speaker 1: it feels like it happens overnight. It really, how do
4:53
Speaker 1: we identify where that's starting then? If it isn't overnight.
4:58
Speaker 2: Well, I think that there's some just like on a
5:00
Speaker 2: like a mom sort of level, there is some of that,
5:03
Speaker 2: like clothing, Like let's just take that as an example.
5:06
Speaker 2: I feel like there was a certain point in time
5:07
Speaker 2: where we kind of leveled out and my son was
5:09
Speaker 2: able to stay in the same size. I'm like, oh,
5:11
Speaker 2: this is great. But when you start to notice like, oh,
5:14
Speaker 2: maybe we're at the edge and we need to go
5:16
Speaker 2: up another sized, Like, that's one little indicator that I think.
5:20
Speaker 2: I was like, oh, it's just back to school, shopping
5:22
Speaker 2: or whatever. But I think that was sort of an
5:23
Speaker 2: indicator of like, oh, we're about to hit another gross Burt.
5:26
Speaker 2: That's one thing. And then I have a son. So also,
5:30
Speaker 2: I will say when he started asking for second dinner,
5:35
Speaker 2: I was like, what what do you mean second dinner?
5:38
Speaker 2: You know, you should be luck you got the first dinner.
5:40
Speaker 2: But those types of things, I think we're clues and
5:42
Speaker 2: I was like, oh, but knowing that with that, with
5:45
Speaker 2: that growth are also coming these hormonal changes in all
5:49
Speaker 2: of these other things. Those are like really sort of
5:51
Speaker 2: subtle things, and also the socio emotional aspect. I could
5:57
Speaker 2: really notice my son starting to become like he was
6:00
Speaker 2: aware of peers and what that looked like before, but
6:03
Speaker 2: really started mentioning like, oh, I wonder what those kids
6:06
Speaker 2: are doing really and actually starting to question like how
6:10
Speaker 2: I'm in this classroom, but why am I not with
6:12
Speaker 2: those other kids, and why do I only see them
6:14
Speaker 2: during certain times of the day. Curious about other folks
6:17
Speaker 2: instead of just like, oh, this is where I am.
6:19
Speaker 2: There was a new level of awareness that started to
6:22
Speaker 2: come before all of the emotional attachment, right, like so
6:26
Speaker 2: a curiosity, and then we got into this space of like, hey,
6:31
Speaker 2: like I really want to be with other kids, I'm
6:33
Speaker 2: really interested in girls, I'm interested in all these things,
6:37
Speaker 2: and sort of the emotions that come around with that.
6:39
Speaker 2: We didn't start with the emotions of like oh, I
6:41
Speaker 2: kind of want to be with these kids. It was
6:43
Speaker 2: more of a curiosity. And I think that was a
6:46
Speaker 2: clue that I kind of like missed because I will
6:49
Speaker 2: tell you the emotional journey of puberty in terms of
6:52
Speaker 2: like really being aware of what your peers think of
6:56
Speaker 2: you in a different way to where it like really
6:58
Speaker 2: gets you your core and it starts to affect kind
7:02
Speaker 2: of how you even see yourself. And then you're starting
7:05
Speaker 2: to try and figure out, oh, well, can I try
7:06
Speaker 2: and be funny? Should I try on this identity? And like,
7:09
Speaker 2: there's a lot that happens in middle school and it's
7:11
Speaker 2: all developmentally appropriate. And then also there's this other layer
7:16
Speaker 2: of heightened emotions and then heightened sensitivities because if you
7:21
Speaker 2: have a kiddo that's noor divergent, they may not be
7:23
Speaker 2: picking up on all of the subtle social cues, all
7:25
Speaker 2: of the non spoken kind of like body language that's like, hey,
7:30
Speaker 2: you're being tolerated right now, you're not being truly accepted,
7:33
Speaker 2: or yeah, I'll talk to you in this environment, but
7:36
Speaker 2: that doesn't mean that we're like now best friends type
7:38
Speaker 2: of a thing.
7:39
Speaker 1: Yeah.
7:39
Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's one of those things that got me
7:42
Speaker 2: thinking about though it may seem like it happens overnight,
7:45
Speaker 2: this is a build up like over time. And I
7:48
Speaker 2: was even in an IEP meeting, a recent IP meeting
7:51
Speaker 2: with my son who he's someone that you know, had
7:55
Speaker 2: a goal for a long time introduce yourself, say hi,
7:59
Speaker 2: and aren't like, you know, making connections with people when
8:02
Speaker 2: he was younger, and that type of a goal seems great.
8:05
Speaker 2: You want, you know, someone to be able to introduce themselves,
8:08
Speaker 2: say hello, and have like that sort of initial kind
8:10
Speaker 2: of banter with someone, like an initial greeting exchange. And
8:14
Speaker 2: I remember he had that goal and we were working
8:16
Speaker 2: on that for several years. And it's one thing when
8:19
Speaker 2: you do that when a kiddo is cute and little.
8:23
Speaker 2: It's another thing when that kid's like, oh, I have
8:25
Speaker 2: this skill set and now I'm interested in my peers
8:28
Speaker 2: in a different way, right, and I'm going to use
8:32
Speaker 2: that skill that you've ingrained in me for all of
8:34
Speaker 2: these years in elementary school. But then it's different when
8:37
Speaker 2: you're in middle school because now he's, you know, five
8:40
Speaker 2: eight and a half, you know what I'm saying, looks grown,
8:44
Speaker 2: and he's just trying to say hello, but also in
8:47
Speaker 2: a nor divergent way, like is approaching it, and like
8:49
Speaker 2: it may not come off as like, you know, Joe cool,
8:52
Speaker 2: he thinks he is, but like people can tell that
8:55
Speaker 2: it's not necessarily the same cool kid type of a vibe.
8:58
Speaker 2: It may feel a little different to them, and then
9:00
Speaker 2: all of a sudden, that skill that you've worked so
9:03
Speaker 2: hard on in society and in like a middle school
9:06
Speaker 2: setting can seem like a threat or you know, a
9:09
Speaker 2: best seem a little odd, and then it worst seemed
9:11
Speaker 2: like a threat. And so, yeah, I remember telling the
9:14
Speaker 2: team because my son got very clever on ways to
9:17
Speaker 2: figure out like who certain people are. He was using
9:19
Speaker 2: the yearbook and then trying to reach out to people,
9:21
Speaker 2: and it makes perfect sense that he would want to
9:23
Speaker 2: do that, Yeah, but also perfect sense that that would
9:26
Speaker 2: be unexpected to those receiving that. Right, there's community's like
9:30
Speaker 2: I don't actually know you, how did you figure out
9:32
Speaker 2: who I am? Type of a thing. And he said
9:34
Speaker 2: to the team, I'm like, you know, he's had a
9:36
Speaker 2: goal of introducing himself for several years. And this is
9:39
Speaker 2: a kid who is using the tools that he has
9:42
Speaker 2: right at his disposal to try and make connections and
9:46
Speaker 2: he has every right to make those connections. And I
9:49
Speaker 2: don't think we do a good enough job of focusing
9:53
Speaker 2: on a goal and then also focusing on the caveats,
9:57
Speaker 2: right yeap, Like when you're generalizing, it's like, oh, that's
9:59
Speaker 2: generalized in the community, But what about the caveats? What
10:03
Speaker 2: about yes, introduce yourself and also recognize when someone's saying, hey,
10:09
Speaker 2: I'm not interested, or hey, that was unexpected. And I
10:12
Speaker 2: don't think that we do a good job of that,
10:14
Speaker 2: which then I feel like, once you get to that
10:16
Speaker 2: puberty stage can be a little nerve wracking and a
10:20
Speaker 2: little dangerous. So I think we have to do a
10:22
Speaker 2: better job of looking at that sort of life cycle
10:25
Speaker 2: of things instead of Okay, this is an appropriate elementary goal.
10:28
Speaker 2: We're going to do that. Da da da da da
10:29
Speaker 2: and kind of let other people worry about the rest.
10:32
Speaker 2: I think we have worried about it from the beginning.
10:34
Speaker 1: That nuance. We don't put that in goals, And how
10:37
Speaker 1: would we really like if a goal was, you know,
10:40
Speaker 1: a novel, maybe, but it's not. And so like I
10:44
Speaker 1: remember my own son coming in in sixth grade and
10:49
Speaker 1: now boys tease each other, it's camaraderie. He would come
10:55
Speaker 1: in the door raging mad that they were bullying him,
10:59
Speaker 1: that they weren't ass and I was like, oh, I
11:02
Speaker 1: think we need to start working on that nonverbal stuff. Yes, right,
11:05
Speaker 1: Like it wasn't really a problem, and then it was
11:08
Speaker 1: a problem, and I'm so glad we're talking about trying
11:13
Speaker 1: to identify earlier and starting to work on that earlier
11:17
Speaker 1: before it's a problem.
11:19
Speaker 2: That's right, because I do think that even in the
11:21
Speaker 2: language that certain providers, whether they be within the school
11:25
Speaker 2: or external therapeutic providers, they'll just start addressing like using
11:29
Speaker 2: the word friends. M h, well, not everybody use your friend.
11:33
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, like you know this is your.
11:35
Speaker 2: Friend because they're just here, but no, they actually aren't,
11:39
Speaker 2: and no one's ever taking the time then until it
11:41
Speaker 2: becomes a thing to say, oh, well, there's a difference
11:43
Speaker 2: between friends, acquaintances and someone that you just happen to. Like,
11:47
Speaker 2: no one is setting right and while they don't and
11:51
Speaker 2: I'm not advocating for like, oh, IEPs need to be
11:53
Speaker 2: any longer than they already are, because they are long,
11:55
Speaker 2: but I do think that, like we should have some
11:58
Speaker 2: sub goals around like what happens when you introduce yourself
12:02
Speaker 2: and get a certain reaction and how to cope with
12:05
Speaker 2: that or at least start to recognize those things and
12:09
Speaker 2: even the words that we use, like as therapists, like
12:13
Speaker 2: are you calling yourself a friend to your client? In
12:16
Speaker 2: the short term, it's about building community and making them
12:19
Speaker 2: feel safe and in the long term, though, is that
12:23
Speaker 2: setting that particular individual up to think that, oh, anyone
12:27
Speaker 2: that's around me is just going to be my friend
12:29
Speaker 2: and have my best interest at heart, right, Because it's
12:31
Speaker 2: not true. Right, And therapists change over time, you age
12:34
Speaker 2: out of things, or they switch a job, and then
12:37
Speaker 2: what happens? What is that saying about friendship? I think
12:39
Speaker 2: we have to be really clear and intentional about the
12:42
Speaker 2: language we use. And so for my son, for Gavin,
12:45
Speaker 2: I'd be like, this is your therapist talking to my
12:50
Speaker 2: dad his grandfather the other day, and he's like, Grandpa,
12:53
Speaker 2: maybe you should talk about that. What's a therapist like
12:56
Speaker 2: using these terms? Because I'm clear with him right about
12:59
Speaker 2: what is is and what this relationship is, what it's not.
13:02
Speaker 2: So even little things like that, if we can't get
13:05
Speaker 2: to the point where we're looking at all the caveats,
13:06
Speaker 2: can we at least be clear about our language because
13:09
Speaker 2: we shouldn't expect everybody to be friends.
13:23
Speaker 1: I'm in a graduate program right now with mostly teachers
13:26
Speaker 1: and they call everyone pal or friend, and I thought
13:30
Speaker 1: it was so endearing, and now I'm second guessing that.
13:33
Speaker 1: I know like I know it seems benign and sweet
13:38
Speaker 1: and correct. There's some ambiguity there.
13:42
Speaker 2: There is some ambiguity there. And then so think about
13:44
Speaker 2: that in a middle school context. If you have, especially
13:48
Speaker 2: a nor divergent student who has been in environments where
13:51
Speaker 2: a therapists are calling them, you know, friends, where everyone
13:56
Speaker 2: all of the students that they're around are friends and
13:58
Speaker 2: are expected to be friends. But they're like, but wait,
14:01
Speaker 2: I don't actually like so and so, Yeah, do.
14:03
Speaker 1: You know what I mean?
14:04
Speaker 2: Like, how are they grappling with that and coming to truth?
14:06
Speaker 1: I know exactly what you mean.
14:08
Speaker 2: And frankly, some of the best lessons you can have
14:10
Speaker 2: and learn when you're approaching middle school and in middle
14:13
Speaker 2: school is how to be a respectful non friend, right,
14:17
Speaker 2: because you're not going to get along with everyone, and
14:21
Speaker 2: it's that's by design, and that's okay, but yes, you
14:24
Speaker 2: still need to be respectful. And yes, we're not going
14:26
Speaker 2: to promote like you know, doing the caddy stuff and
14:28
Speaker 2: talking behind people's backs. But if we're it seems just
14:31
Speaker 2: disingenuous to have this expectation that everyone's going to be friends,
14:35
Speaker 2: and then dangerous for a nor divergent student because then
14:38
Speaker 2: they're left to grapple with Okay, but I thought they
14:40
Speaker 2: were my friends when I'm not getting like, I'm not
14:43
Speaker 2: understanding how they're not talking to.
14:44
Speaker 1: Me, you know what?
14:45
Speaker 2: Right? I mean? Yeah, I did this post recently about
14:49
Speaker 2: my son sort of coming to terms. There was a
14:52
Speaker 2: girl that he likes, and they rightfully so beautiful girl,
14:55
Speaker 2: lovely person, and she was friendly with him, great, they
15:00
Speaker 2: were talking on the phone, great, and it seemed reciprocal,
15:04
Speaker 2: and that at a certain point in time it was like,
15:06
Speaker 2: let's I could tell that, you know, she was fading
15:09
Speaker 2: this back right and would say was not being truthful
15:12
Speaker 2: to him and was saying like, oh, you know, I
15:14
Speaker 2: got my phone taken away. Sorry, blah blah blah, I
15:17
Speaker 2: can't talk. But that wasn't the case because it went
15:20
Speaker 2: on for a long time and clearly he was, you know,
15:22
Speaker 2: then blocked or what have you. But it's this piece
15:24
Speaker 2: around who's then left to give ground truth to these
15:30
Speaker 2: students and it fell on me, right, so I am
15:32
Speaker 2: having to because I don't want him in a non
15:35
Speaker 2: reality space that could be very dangerous too, Like I
15:37
Speaker 2: don't want you living with in a dream world like
15:41
Speaker 2: this is someone who, yes, I understand you want so
15:44
Speaker 2: desperately for this person to be your friend, And let's
15:48
Speaker 2: look at the evidence of the behavior that's not actually
15:51
Speaker 2: friend like, right. Yeah, if they don't want to talk
15:54
Speaker 2: to you outside of school or aren't talking to you
15:56
Speaker 2: outside of school, that's not really friend like behavior. So
15:59
Speaker 2: maybe this is an acquaintance and it takes a long
16:02
Speaker 2: time to get there, like repetition of these little nuggets
16:04
Speaker 2: because I'm having to break my son's heart. Yeah, once,
16:09
Speaker 2: this relationship so bad, he's deserving of it. But hey,
16:12
Speaker 2: you know, haven't we all been in situation where they
16:15
Speaker 2: don't want us back, Like it's a life experience. But
16:19
Speaker 2: I'm not there to tell him, Hey, but look at
16:22
Speaker 2: this evidence and measure that up against our definitions of
16:26
Speaker 2: friendship and what you would expect. Then I have to
16:29
Speaker 2: gently break his heart while simultaneously holding space for that heartache. Right.
16:34
Speaker 2: But my point of that is, like, we need a
16:37
Speaker 2: little bit more of that reality embedded in the landscape,
16:42
Speaker 2: because I think when we are calling everybody friends and hey,
16:45
Speaker 2: pals and hey this and hey, that it sets folks
16:49
Speaker 2: up to live in a world that is not based
16:51
Speaker 2: in reality and all doesn't give them the tools to
16:55
Speaker 2: recognize when someone is not showing up in their life
16:59
Speaker 2: in a way that is is honoring their value in
17:02
Speaker 2: their inherent humanity. It's inhibiting them for them being a
17:06
Speaker 2: self advocate in that way. Is there in a llalla
17:09
Speaker 2: land about it? Right? That's the sort of thing that
17:12
Speaker 2: I think is one of the most critical things is
17:15
Speaker 2: really we have to be honest, be honest in an
17:18
Speaker 2: age appropriate way. But like calling yourself the therapist when
17:21
Speaker 2: you are the therapist, low hanging fruit. Referring to the
17:26
Speaker 2: folks in the class not as everybody's friends but were classmates,
17:29
Speaker 2: accurate and also age appropriate, right, I think lends itself
17:34
Speaker 2: then for that conversation around friends versus acquaintances.
17:38
Speaker 1: And there's a point where most of our neurodiversion kids
17:42
Speaker 1: start to be able to pick up on that nuance right,
17:46
Speaker 1: to pick up some of those signals. In sixth grade,
17:49
Speaker 1: my son didn't, right I in carpool. I could tell
17:53
Speaker 1: that they were trying to blow him off, but he
17:56
Speaker 1: was completely oblivious. And for a while I was like,
18:00
Speaker 1: thank goodness, he doesn't know. Thank goodness, they're not breaking
18:03
Speaker 1: his heart too yep. And then I was like, wait
18:06
Speaker 1: a minute, we can't live in a fairyland all the time.
18:12
Speaker 1: It's not preparing them for later.
18:15
Speaker 2: It's such a.
18:16
Speaker 1: Hard thing to accept as a parent that we need
18:21
Speaker 1: to let our kids struggle, that we need to let
18:24
Speaker 1: them feel pain. We don't want that, right, well, we
18:29
Speaker 1: wants that, and for me, it was really hard to
18:33
Speaker 1: make that shift and to be able to sit back sometimes.
18:37
Speaker 1: But it sounds like that's really how we prepare them
18:40
Speaker 1: better for real life, in the real world, which is
18:43
Speaker 1: what we worry about.
18:44
Speaker 2: There you go, and it is to your point, Penny,
18:47
Speaker 2: it is devastating. Like I'm telling you about this situation
18:50
Speaker 2: where I'm having to break this down for my son.
18:53
Speaker 2: I definitely had to take some time for myself because
18:55
Speaker 2: it broke my heart too, do you know what I mean?
18:58
Speaker 2: Like breaks my heart too. And of course there are
19:00
Speaker 2: those moments where you're like, oh, thank goodness, he's not
19:03
Speaker 2: picking up on this side I over here or whatever.
19:06
Speaker 2: But also there will be a time when I'm not here,
19:10
Speaker 2: you know, And so it's only okay if he's in
19:14
Speaker 2: La La land, because I'm here and I know that
19:16
Speaker 2: it was La La land, so I can sort of
19:18
Speaker 2: set think, but that's not what this is, right, we
19:21
Speaker 2: really want it's to be as independent as possible, and
19:25
Speaker 2: so independence and life itself involves both ups and downs. Unfortunately,
19:31
Speaker 2: our kido's will experience you know, more sort of negative
19:35
Speaker 2: reactions or disciplines and all all of those things. We
19:38
Speaker 2: know that to be true. And I think the hardest part,
19:42
Speaker 2: but our most important sort of task, is to let
19:47
Speaker 2: our kiddo's experience the pain that's coming up in their
19:50
Speaker 2: lives and also showing them that there's someone there that's
19:55
Speaker 2: holding space for them while they're going through it, yeah, right,
19:58
Speaker 2: helping them COREGT so that when we aren't there, they
20:02
Speaker 2: then are able to more able to access their self
20:05
Speaker 2: regulation tools can't protect my son from you know, heartbreaks
20:11
Speaker 2: and negative messages he may get from someone else, But
20:14
Speaker 2: it is my job to make sure that at least
20:16
Speaker 2: I've done my part and letting him know how special
20:20
Speaker 2: and unique and how worthy he is, so that he
20:22
Speaker 2: can recognize when someone is showing up as a friend,
20:26
Speaker 2: so recognize when someone is treating him well and is
20:29
Speaker 2: worthy of that, like reciprocal relationship. It is hard. And
20:34
Speaker 2: the other I sort of mentioned in our little pre
20:36
Speaker 2: talk is like, you know, all of this is happening
20:38
Speaker 2: at the same time where I, as a parent, I'm
20:40
Speaker 2: going through my own hormonal changes. Yes, here's a lot
20:44
Speaker 2: going on, and so I just want to hold space
20:46
Speaker 2: for those who are like either menopause or menopause while
20:49
Speaker 2: also having a kiddo in puberty, because it is no
20:52
Speaker 2: easy feat. There's lots going on. But I also think
20:55
Speaker 2: that because I am experienced some of those some changes
20:58
Speaker 2: of my own, it makes me empathize too, right with
21:02
Speaker 2: ronal changes that he's going through. It would have been
21:05
Speaker 2: nice if it was a little more staggered, I will
21:07
Speaker 2: say that, but but at least there's that empathy piece, right,
21:10
Speaker 2: and then I can be honest with him about, Hey,
21:12
Speaker 2: I'm feeling differences too in my body or whatever, and
21:15
Speaker 2: like just sort of relating on that level. And I
21:18
Speaker 2: think it's we've had some really great one on one
21:22
Speaker 2: conversations because of that empathy and because of that safety
21:26
Speaker 2: that we've established.
21:28
Speaker 1: Yeah, that relationship is so key, so key, And I
21:32
Speaker 1: think what you're describing builds even more trust because they
21:37
Speaker 1: know that we've got them, but they also know that
21:40
Speaker 1: we're going to be real with them, correct that we're
21:44
Speaker 1: not you know, just I love you. You're my kenno
21:48
Speaker 1: everything's going to be great, right, Like they get more
21:51
Speaker 1: trust with honesty. Really right?
21:54
Speaker 2: Yeah, what you just said actually reminds me of this
21:56
Speaker 2: incident my son. We were we had just move states,
22:00
Speaker 2: and he was starting a new school, was starting the
22:02
Speaker 2: middle school as a fifth grader. It's here, it's fifth
22:06
Speaker 2: or eighth grade. And I said to him, I had
22:08
Speaker 2: to drive him because they didn't have the bus service
22:10
Speaker 2: set up any of that stuff. So I'm dropping him
22:13
Speaker 2: off at school and I said, have a great day.
22:16
Speaker 2: He walks a little bit and then pauses. And this
22:19
Speaker 2: is the kiddo with expressive and receptive speech delay. He's
22:23
Speaker 2: always been vocal used his mouth words, but like when
22:26
Speaker 2: he says something and he's pausing, it means something. So
22:29
Speaker 2: he walks a little bit, pauses, turns back around to
22:33
Speaker 2: me and says, Mom, I don't know what type of
22:35
Speaker 2: day I'm going to have. And I was like, huh.
22:40
Speaker 2: But it was his way of telling me with real
22:42
Speaker 2: intentionality and focus, like I don't know what this is
22:46
Speaker 2: going to be. You can't just like blow smoke and
22:48
Speaker 2: mirrors in my face. This is scary. This is a
22:52
Speaker 2: new school, it's big. I don't know any of these
22:55
Speaker 2: kids and let me have my feelings. And I can't
22:58
Speaker 2: promise you it's going to be this great day that
23:00
Speaker 2: you want me to have, you know what I mean.
23:03
Speaker 2: And that was like, Oh, I got to let you
23:06
Speaker 2: feel what you're feeling. I gotta let you experience what
23:10
Speaker 2: you're experiencing. Of course, I hope for you, as your
23:12
Speaker 2: mom that it's a great day, but I can't force
23:15
Speaker 2: a great day on you out of my control. What
23:19
Speaker 2: I can do is be here to receive you when
23:21
Speaker 2: you get home, and if it's a great day, hold
23:24
Speaker 2: space for that. If it was a scary day, hold
23:27
Speaker 2: space for that right and figure out what we can
23:30
Speaker 2: do to make it a little less scary the next day.
23:32
Speaker 2: But yeah, it was one of these big lessons. I
23:35
Speaker 2: still remember it like crystal clear because it was so impactful.
23:39
Speaker 2: And I think sometimes weeople want to wish away our kids,
23:41
Speaker 2: paying we want to wish away difficult times, and you
23:43
Speaker 2: cannot do that.
23:45
Speaker 1: Yeah, you can't. You can't. I'm wondering if a change
23:49
Speaker 1: in language would have helped, Like if you had said,
23:53
Speaker 1: I hope today is a great day, would that have
23:56
Speaker 1: been enough of a change, or would that still feel
23:59
Speaker 1: like pressure to have a good day and not really
24:05
Speaker 1: be in control of it. Like our kids when they
24:08
Speaker 1: walk into a school building, they are not in control
24:12
Speaker 1: of whether or not they have a good day. That's
24:14
Speaker 1: just reality, it is mm hmm.
24:16
Speaker 2: And I think for him at that time, because it
24:18
Speaker 2: was such a major shift that I think even that
24:21
Speaker 2: change in language would have felt like pressure to him.
24:23
Speaker 2: I think that would have resonated with him at the
24:26
Speaker 2: time was Buddy, whatever day you're going to have, just
24:29
Speaker 2: know I'm here for you when you get home, because
24:33
Speaker 2: it was it was so uncertain, there were so many
24:36
Speaker 2: variables that it's like, hey, we you know, I hope
24:40
Speaker 2: the best for you, but whatever it's going to be,
24:41
Speaker 2: I'm here for you at the end of the day, right,
24:44
Speaker 2: and that this is your SAT's going to work, Yeah,
24:47
Speaker 2: you know where we're going to work through stuff together.
24:49
Speaker 2: But yeah, it was a really really big lesson. So
24:51
Speaker 2: I'm really intentional about like the language I'm using that
24:54
Speaker 2: seems great, seems benign, right, Hey pals have a great day,
24:58
Speaker 2: blah blah blah, But is that really holding space for
25:01
Speaker 2: his experience? Is that really he is like what he's
25:05
Speaker 2: going to need. And I'm finding no, I have to
25:08
Speaker 2: just be more real with him, and then he in
25:11
Speaker 2: turned is real with me in ways that I don't
25:13
Speaker 2: always like. But you know, yeah, we're we have a
25:16
Speaker 2: relationship based in honesty, and I really appreciate that.
25:19
Speaker 1: It's everything. That's everything, and what we're talking about can
25:24
Speaker 1: get better, right, I want to end on this like
25:28
Speaker 1: it can get better. Like I remember in seventh or
25:31
Speaker 1: eighth grade, my son had started robotics after school. I
25:36
Speaker 1: finally found his people right and got in the car
25:41
Speaker 1: and one day after school and I at that point,
25:44
Speaker 1: I think I had stopped asking how is your day
25:46
Speaker 1: because it was met with a lot of grumpiness and silence,
25:50
Speaker 1: and I said something different, but he said, you know what,
25:55
Speaker 1: I finally have real friends. He said, you know when
26:00
Speaker 1: someone comes up and they talk to you first and
26:03
Speaker 1: you didn't even know they were there. Yet I have
26:07
Speaker 1: those friends now. And I went home and cried because
26:12
Speaker 1: I was like, thank goodness, we've done this, like I
26:16
Speaker 1: even have goosebumps now. And that was ten eleven years ago.
26:20
Speaker 2: Yes, of course, and it was.
26:24
Speaker 1: I think for me, the tears were He's gonna be okay,
26:29
Speaker 1: just does get better. He's gonna have friends. It is
26:33
Speaker 1: gonna be okay, and he's gonna have the real friends,
26:36
Speaker 1: not the ones who are placating and pacifying and you know,
26:39
Speaker 1: trying to be polite but don't really want to spend time.
26:43
Speaker 1: Now he's found his people and it happens. It's just later,
26:49
Speaker 1: well later.
26:49
Speaker 2: But also again I think at the same time, right,
26:53
Speaker 2: because you have to you have to be continuously exploring,
26:56
Speaker 2: like what what are your interests and what things do
26:59
Speaker 2: you want to try out? Right? So, like my son
27:03
Speaker 2: is really into swimming. He has a flair for the dramatique.
27:06
Speaker 2: I don't know where he.
27:07
Speaker 1: Gets done, no no idea.
27:09
Speaker 2: But we found this great group, a theater group that's
27:12
Speaker 2: specifically it's like improvisational games. It's called sadari and I
27:16
Speaker 2: forget what the acronym s fills out to, but improvisational
27:19
Speaker 2: theater based games specifically for nor divergent tenes.
27:23
Speaker 1: Wow, and it.
27:25
Speaker 2: He had done some theater before and then he had
27:26
Speaker 2: stopped because he had like a bad social experience, and
27:29
Speaker 2: then this was a perfect entryway back. And it's like
27:32
Speaker 2: he's like, mom, do I have group this week? Like
27:34
Speaker 2: it's like that like preemptive, like but with excitement, not
27:37
Speaker 2: like mom, do I have group this week, it's like no,
27:40
Speaker 2: like it's that, you know, elevated like intonation. And I
27:43
Speaker 2: can tell that he's interested, and I can tell that
27:45
Speaker 2: he's enjoying the company of those folks right in those
27:49
Speaker 2: moments where he's in a certain setting and someone will
27:52
Speaker 2: come up to him and say like hey, Gavin, and
27:53
Speaker 2: they're given a pound or whatever, Like those moments are
27:57
Speaker 2: really really cherished, like when you're seeing your kiddo's face
28:01
Speaker 2: light up right, And I wouldn't have known that you
28:03
Speaker 2: have to keep trying things right before you can see
28:07
Speaker 2: what's really going to work and where they're going to
28:08
Speaker 2: find their people. But that's the magic. And so when
28:11
Speaker 2: he's in those times of struggle, when there's someone a
28:13
Speaker 2: friend that he wants to be a friend that's not
28:15
Speaker 2: really a friend, I remind him, well, how does this
28:17
Speaker 2: feel in this situation versus this other situation where your
28:22
Speaker 2: voice is like hey mo, like are we having group?
28:24
Speaker 2: Am I going to see so and so today? Versus
28:27
Speaker 2: I wonder why this person isn't you know that anguish
28:30
Speaker 2: like and trying to get him to see those differences
28:32
Speaker 2: so that he can really continue to fill his cup
28:36
Speaker 2: from those experiences where they are authentic and reciprocated carry
28:40
Speaker 2: him through those hard parts and then so we'll get
28:41
Speaker 2: to some more of those. Yeah, I think such a journey.
28:44
Speaker 2: And thank you for sharing that scenario with your son,
28:47
Speaker 2: because it honestly almost brought me to tears. And that's
28:50
Speaker 2: that's the thing, right, Like, it does get better, but
28:52
Speaker 2: the way to get to better is being honest. Yeah, authentic,
28:55
Speaker 2: pointing these things out so that they're not in lalla
28:58
Speaker 2: land and they can actually get to find their true people.
29:00
Speaker 1: And when they find they're true people, they know it. Like,
29:03
Speaker 1: if we keep saying everybody's a friend, how are they
29:06
Speaker 1: going to be able to stinguish sharing all?
29:09
Speaker 2: Because then people that treat me bad or my friends,
29:11
Speaker 2: people that don't talk to me at all are my friend.
29:12
Speaker 2: People that do say hi to me or my friend?
29:14
Speaker 2: Like what does that even mean?
29:16
Speaker 1: You know, the difference between being friendly and being a friend, right,
29:20
Speaker 1: I think that's what we're really talking about, is like
29:23
Speaker 1: we want kids in the classroom to be friendly to
29:25
Speaker 1: each other. That doesn't mean that they're all going to
29:28
Speaker 1: be true friends with each other. And that's okay, Like
29:33
Speaker 1: that's real life.
29:34
Speaker 2: It really is, and they are you know, even like
29:36
Speaker 2: me as an adult in the workforce, Like I have
29:38
Speaker 2: people that are acquaintances and that's perfectly fine. I respect
29:42
Speaker 2: my acquaintances, but that's where they are, right. I have
29:44
Speaker 2: colleagues people that I respect collegiately, but they're not my friends,
29:48
Speaker 2: and that's okay. And then I have my friends and
29:52
Speaker 2: it's a small circle for me because I you know,
29:54
Speaker 2: I'm an I'm an introvert and I like my time
29:56
Speaker 2: to myself. That's fine, but I know who those people are, right,
30:00
Speaker 2: And I'm not trying to conflate anything and make an
30:03
Speaker 2: acquaintance of Like that's just we all have that in
30:06
Speaker 2: our lives. And I do point that out to my
30:08
Speaker 2: son as well, like, you know, same thing for mommy,
30:11
Speaker 2: Like I'm not just putting this on you. This is
30:13
Speaker 2: what I'm going through too. But yeah, that's what life
30:16
Speaker 2: is about. And I think middle school and puberty is
30:19
Speaker 2: one of those times where these things start to surface.
30:22
Speaker 2: But again, I can iterate enough. It doesn't just start
30:24
Speaker 2: at middle school. We have to think about the jectory
30:27
Speaker 2: of like what's happening before then once we get there,
30:30
Speaker 2: and how can we be more honest at all those phases? Right,
30:33
Speaker 2: Even though it may be hard.
30:35
Speaker 1: Thank you so much when you tell everybody where to
30:37
Speaker 1: find you online so they can learn more, potentially work
30:41
Speaker 1: with you, all that good stuff.
30:42
Speaker 2: So on LinkedIn. I am doctor Kim Pinkney on LinkedIn
30:45
Speaker 2: as well as doctor Kim Pinkney on Instagram. You can
30:48
Speaker 2: find me there and I have a link tree and
30:50
Speaker 2: all that good stuff. I can share the links with
30:52
Speaker 2: you to post.
30:52
Speaker 1: Yep, we'll share all of that in the show notes
30:55
Speaker 1: as well. That can be found at parentingadhdnautism dot com.
31:00
Speaker 1: Thank you, you're such a infectious, warm person like I
31:05
Speaker 1: just I have the best time talking with you. It
31:07
Speaker 1: always makes my day better. I appreciate it so much,
31:11
Speaker 1: so we'll have you back soon, I'm sure. All right.
31:16
Speaker 1: You take care everyone, and I'll see you next time.
31:20
Speaker 1: Visit beautifully hyphencomplex dot com for more resources, coaching and
31:25
Speaker 1: parent training, and help another kid by sharing this with
31:29
Speaker 1: someone who could benefit from listening.