Latest / CRYPTO 101 / Ep. 727 Solana DeFi Is Growing Up — Jupiter’s COO Explains How

Transcript

Ep. 727 Solana DeFi Is Growing Up — Jupiter’s COO Explains How · CRYPTO 101

0:08
[SPEAKER_00]: All right, everyone, welcome back to the Crypto 101 podcast.
0:13
[SPEAKER_00]: We hope all of you are having a fantastic morning or evening, because no matter where you're coming in from, but you're certainly in the right place here today.
0:21
[SPEAKER_00]: Man, we hope everyone's doing well out there in the Crypto community.
0:24
[SPEAKER_00]: There is a lot of turbulence.
0:25
[SPEAKER_00]: There's certainly a lot going on.
0:27
[SPEAKER_00]: And despite all of this guys, the market is continuing the move forward guys price action can remain pretty choppy and stuff, but let me tell you what we love bringing in leaders from the space to hear what's going on to give you all the inside scoop about what's going on behind the scenes, what kind of
0:43
[SPEAKER_00]: different areas of the industries are remaining active, how they're increasing, how they're changing, so that you all can understand where you should be looking about where the ball could be heading next.
0:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, it's with my great pleasure to introduce all of you to Cash Donda.
0:58
[SPEAKER_00]: He is the COO over Jupiter before all that.
1:01
[SPEAKER_00]: He was doing consulting for a number of different Fortune 500 companies.
1:04
[SPEAKER_00]: Cash, it's good to have you and welcome.
1:07
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a pleasure being here, thanks for having me on.
1:09
[SPEAKER_00]: This is going to be exciting because for the listeners out there, you're probably coming in here and saying, hey, didn't you just have Jupiter on and we did earlier this year in January?
1:19
[SPEAKER_00]: So it was about five, six months ago now at the time of recording this.
1:23
[SPEAKER_00]: We had Shao Shao Zou, who is the president of the Jupiter Exchange on, had a great conversation with him about the decentralized exchange and the aggregator and how that works.
1:37
[SPEAKER_00]: I think what people failed to understand and probably partially on our part is that Jupiter does a lot more than just let you go through the aggregator and make transactions over the years.
1:49
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, you guys have been evolving into this defy, super app.
1:52
[SPEAKER_00]: You have all these different products.
1:53
[SPEAKER_00]: You have all these different ways that people can interact with, you know, not just Solana, but a bunch of different areas inside like Solana's ecosystem and I've seen you guys are doing some other things that we'll talk about here today as well.
2:06
[SPEAKER_00]: But as you guys grow into what is very clearly becoming this defy super app, what is the long-term vision of what Jupiter is going to be up to for the next few years?
2:21
[SPEAKER_01]: Everything is the short answer to that.
2:24
[SPEAKER_01]: Our core product philosophy here is we want people to just use Jupiter for anything that they would do in their on chain financial life.
2:31
[SPEAKER_01]: And our view is that the entire financial world is going to be moving on chain over the coming years, which means you end up doing everything that you do around money, value, trading, earning yield, etc.
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[SPEAKER_01]: all through Jupiter itself.
2:43
[SPEAKER_01]: So today, we have, of course, the trading side.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We did about $1.2 trillion last year in trading volume.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But we're also number one by TVL on Solana, so we have the most liquidity inside of the protocol.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We also have one of the most used wallets in the space, Jupiter mobile and our Jupiter Chrome extension, and then a bunch of other products as well.
3:00
[SPEAKER_01]: We've 18 in total from a stable coin to prediction markets to
3:09
[SPEAKER_01]: assets around value around money.
3:11
[SPEAKER_01]: You're able to use Jupiter to do it.
3:12
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, Jupiter has become a staple of of Salana, right?
3:18
[SPEAKER_00]: People go there.
3:20
[SPEAKER_00]: We use you guys all the time.
3:21
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, we recommend you.
3:24
[SPEAKER_00]: Can you just explain, I guess, the difference between a decentralized exchange and what Jupiter is?
3:31
[SPEAKER_00]: Because there's a little bit of a difference between an aggregator and a decks, right?
3:37
[SPEAKER_01]: So decks is actually hold on to the liquidity, the underlying trading tokens, right?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Solana and USDC for example.
3:45
[SPEAKER_01]: That liquidity lives in a protocol like Mediora, right?
3:48
[SPEAKER_01]: That's a pureplayed decks.
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[SPEAKER_01]: On the trading side, one of Jupiter's products is in fact the decks aggregator.
3:54
[SPEAKER_01]: And what we're able to do is look across all the different liquidity pools that might exist.
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[SPEAKER_01]: All
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[SPEAKER_01]: across crypto and, you know, in Solana, there are dozens and dozens of them.
4:01
[SPEAKER_01]: And we kind of find the best possible price for you across those different pools.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And oftentimes that means splitting up your order and giving, let's say, 30% to Mediora and 40% to Radium and whatever, you know, the other percentage of other pieces.
4:14
[SPEAKER_01]: And so really our goal is not to necessarily house the liquidity, but rather to make sure that you as a trader get the best possible price and you don't have to hop around across 10 different sites in order to get that price that you want.
4:26
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I think that's important right because a lot of the times you might go to one place and you're like, you know, am I getting the best price am I going to get slippage am I going to run into some of these different issues on the cool thing about an aggregators is it's exactly like you said it's saying hey let's look at everything and let's get you the best price the best liquidity the best fill.
4:45
[SPEAKER_00]: And it can be just kind of a convenience thing for you.
4:47
[SPEAKER_00]: So you know, you don't have to worry about a lot of that stuff.
4:50
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, you know, if you're more advanced, right, you might be more comfortable doing that.
4:55
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think for the average trader, that becomes a pretty big advantage.
4:59
[SPEAKER_00]: But you know, like we said at the top of the show, you guys are doing so much more than this.
5:03
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a, what, how many different products now?
5:05
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to see you guys are over 15.
5:07
[SPEAKER_00]: Is that right?
5:08
[SPEAKER_00]: It depends on how you kind of, but yeah, it's something like 18.
5:11
[SPEAKER_01]: One quick point to make on the dexter liquidity side that I think is important for people to know that is sometimes overlooked right now The biggest innovation that you're seeing in trading, it's actually it started on Solana and it started with Jupiter or something called prop AMMs Now, these are our liquidity pools that you can't actually access in any other way outside of Jupiter.
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[SPEAKER_01]: There is no or other dexter aggregators There are no there's no front end for Goonfire bison five those are that's liquidity that's only available via the aggregator.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So
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[SPEAKER_01]: I would say, you know, listen, we love what traders go straight to media or whatever else to trade, but ultimately if you do want the best price using an aggregator and using Jupiter specifically is how you're going to get it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Because we can surface liquidity that you cannot access anywhere else.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And that's important, you know, especially at a time like this.
5:56
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's why I like a lot of users like to go over there, right?
6:00
[SPEAKER_00]: People always ask them, oh, hey, where should we go?
6:02
[SPEAKER_00]: What matters?
6:04
[SPEAKER_00]: I think this conversation is going to help out a lot of you.
6:07
[SPEAKER_00]: But again, you know, we don't want to focus too much on the decks.
6:09
[SPEAKER_00]: We just had an awesome podcast.
6:11
[SPEAKER_00]: If you guys
6:12
[SPEAKER_00]: had not listened to it already.
6:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Go back again.
6:15
[SPEAKER_00]: It's with Shao Shao Zoo, the president of Jupiter.
6:17
[SPEAKER_00]: We did it back in January.
6:19
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a ton of great content over there in regards to that.
6:23
[SPEAKER_00]: I think there's a huge reason.
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[SPEAKER_00]: We like to use Jupiter.
6:26
[SPEAKER_00]: We talk about you guys.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Full transparency over here.
6:30
[SPEAKER_00]: But what we've noticed, right, and why we're having you back on here is all of these different products that you guys have been working on, the latest one and I guess we'll dive into this first because I want to talk about Solana as a whole in the Solana ecosystem and what kind of activity and changes you guys have noticed here and we're going to talk about that in a little bit.
6:49
[SPEAKER_00]: But one of the big headlines that caught my eye was your partnership with Bitwise.
6:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Bitwise, friend of the show, we've had numerous people from their team on.
6:58
[SPEAKER_00]: So shout out to them, you know, what were big fans and supporters of them.
7:03
[SPEAKER_00]: But you had this partnership with Bitwise to curate a market for Jupiter-Lend through Athena.
7:10
[SPEAKER_00]: He just talked to us a little bit more about what that means, and maybe why this is happening.
7:16
[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely, this is a seminal partnership, I think, in kind of defy history quite honestly.
7:22
[SPEAKER_01]: We have Jupiter-Lend, which is our bar-Lend market, our money market.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's about $2.2 billion in total market size today.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And a big driver of that in the recent growth, in particular, is this isolated market that we put up with bit-wise and Athena.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's a very limited market.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So it only has three assets in it, U.S.DE, which is Athena's stablecoin, U.S.D.G.
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[SPEAKER_01]: and bringing bit-wise in was an essential part of the equation here.
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[SPEAKER_01]: They are what's called the risk curator on the market.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So they're the ones identifying the right LTVs, the right liquidation thresholds, the Oracle setup, the op-sex side, et cetera, etc.
7:59
[SPEAKER_01]: They kind of make sure that the market works well.
8:02
[SPEAKER_01]: And this was really important at this moment in time in particular, you know, as you mentioned, and as anyone who's been paying attention to defy has noticed, it has been a difficult few months for defy, especially on the security side, right.
8:14
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, thankfully, we have avoided all of that a Jupiter, there's been no bad debt, no exploits of any kind and so forth, but we knew.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We needed a partner that had the kind of institutional expertise that could speak the language of the institutions and create that trust that was needed to kind of like bring back some of that trust and to defy the hate yes there have been some problematic spots elsewhere not what you're better but there have been going on let's bring in the big boys to show that we're taking this as seriously as you could possibly take it.
8:39
[SPEAKER_01]: This is their first major 4A, you know, bitwise as your view is probably no, as I don't know, something like $15 billion in assets, one of the major ETF issuers for crypto products around the world.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And now, this is their first major 4A into decentralized finance.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So you're getting this great mashup of, you know, the best of traditional finance minds, the best of the five kind of coming together to build what is ultimately, you know, the best lending product for all users.
9:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
9:02
[SPEAKER_00]: I was going to bring that up.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I was going to say, I think this is the first time that an institutional asset manager has curated a market for your lending product.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Correct.
9:12
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
9:12
[SPEAKER_01]: We've had many offers in the past to do it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Nothing against the other curators.
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[SPEAKER_01]: They're all great, but we wanted to really make sure that when we did it, it was going to be big and with the best possible partners.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so that market ran up to about $530 million in total market size.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Inside of about 72 hours, it was a growth like we very rarely seen quite honestly, and of course the wise is a big part of that Athena is a big part of that as well And so it's really just kind of bringing the Avengers together, right who can build the best trust who has this kind of next gen product Athena Who has the best lending infrastructure which is us with fluid, we built Jupiter lend together with and who's got the distribution that can actually take it to users all around the world
9:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
9:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Wow.
9:57
[SPEAKER_00]: Can you walk us through how the lending product works?
10:00
[SPEAKER_00]: Because, you know, there's questions out there, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: There's some places where it's like, oh, you have to be institutional or it's, sorry, excuse me, it's institutional only other places to say, hey, you know, you can institutions can come in, but we want to focus on retail, some places do both.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Some, you know, have, you know, security requirements, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: You need to show proof of concepts and defy it's a little bit different, because in
10:26
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know how I want to say.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe like linear in the sense that it's almost all the same.
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[SPEAKER_00]: If you're going and doing lending from a centralized standpoint, it's almost the same everywhere that you go.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But in crypto, there can be a lot more variables kind of inside of this.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So how does the lending product work?
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[SPEAKER_00]: And who would you say it's meant for targeting if anyone?
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[SPEAKER_01]: The latter question is easy to answer.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's meant for everybody.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So Jupiter Land is a permissionless protocol.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Anyone can participate.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We've had more than 100,000 users use it over the last nine or 10 months, which is pretty incredible.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Leningmark, specifically, do not have so many users.
10:58
[SPEAKER_01]: We end up having a lot of retail users who are doing deposits as small as $10 or $100 at a time.
11:05
[SPEAKER_01]: And then we have a bunch of institutions who have nine figures of capital in the protocol as well.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And the reason they all like to use it is that it's simpler for lenders and it's better for borrowers.
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[SPEAKER_01]: The basic kind of mechanic here is pool-based lending.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So traditional finance, of course, you have a bank that sits in the middle, they're doing underwriting, they're saying, hey, you can be an under collateralized loan, and then they can come after you using whatever the legal system, et cetera, to make sure that you pay those debts back.
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[SPEAKER_01]: In crypto, we don't have that benefit.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So much like other barline protocols are protocols over collateralized, which means if you want to borrow a hundred dollars, you've got to give us more than a hundred dollars in collateral, and that goes into this pool.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So Jupiter doesn't really, you know, custody of the funds in that sense are held within the protocol, which is itself open source, everything is visible on chain.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And Jupiter's got two kind of Jupiter lend has two kind of unique things about it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: The first one is that we have this very interesting earn page design, where you can deposit stable coins in and we will automatically route those across the protocol to give you the best rates at all times.
12:03
[SPEAKER_01]: many other protocols, you know, they might have 10 different markets and you can have to identify which one makes sense.
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[SPEAKER_01]: You have to swap at various points, you know, rates go up and down, etc.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Or is this much simpler?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Just, you put in your stable coins, we'll make sure that you get the best possible yield.
12:16
[SPEAKER_01]: And with that, you also get a receipt token that just sits in your wallet.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So that, you know, your deposit does not magically disappear.
12:23
[SPEAKER_01]: This is like the scariest thing.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if you felt this.
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[SPEAKER_01]: When I first got it a D-Fi, first of my used AAV, put the tokens in, they're out of my wallet.
12:30
[SPEAKER_01]: What the hell is going on?
12:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Where do my money go?
12:32
[SPEAKER_01]: If you forget about it, you're obviously, you know, in some real trouble.
12:34
[SPEAKER_01]: For us, we give you a back mercy token that sits in your wallet and just constantly increases in value, so you always know where your assets are, and you're always kind of receiving that value accumulate in real time.
12:44
[SPEAKER_01]: The second thing that we have that I think is really important is a 100x improvement in liquidations.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Liquidation is the fundamental heart of these barrel end protocols.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's how you ensure that people are not going to have
12:58
[SPEAKER_01]: We work with the fluid, which is an EVM-based team to develop this together, and it basically allows us to liquidate extremely efficiently.
13:05
[SPEAKER_01]: Most borrowline protocols when you have a liquidation, they liquidate position by position.
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[SPEAKER_01]: This makes sense it's a logical way to do it, but it's inefficient.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's like imagine if you want to cut your hair and you have to kind of tweez every individual hair, each individual hair is a position.
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[SPEAKER_01]: said what we do is group the businesses together by tick or by price, and then we liquidate up to that price as needed, which is instead of squeezing your hair as like using scissors to cut a bunch of hairs all at the same time.
13:31
[SPEAKER_01]: And because it's so much more efficient, we can have higher LTVs and higher liquidation threshold and lower penalties, which is much better for borrowers, right?
13:38
[SPEAKER_01]: We hope you don't get liquidated, we don't charge any fees on our end, we make no money if you do get liquidated to align incentives.
13:44
[SPEAKER_01]: But in case you ever do, you're going to get
13:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think that's important, right?
13:53
[SPEAKER_00]: No one likes getting liquidated from like a false candle, right?
13:57
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, there's a little bit of slip bitch.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Something goes wrong with the Oracle.
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[SPEAKER_00]: You get liquidated.
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[SPEAKER_00]: It's a frustrating process.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I think DeFi has come a long way, though, in recent years.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I think you've seen it come a really long way from some of the problems that we've probably encountered.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Go closer to like the early stages of DeFi, like 2018, up to like 2020.
14:16
[SPEAKER_00]: I dare I say even like 2021, even like we've come a long way since then.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And the cool thing about lending specifically is that there's two sides to it, right?
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[SPEAKER_00]: If you want to go borrow, you can.
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[SPEAKER_00]: You can be one of the borrowers.
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[SPEAKER_00]: If you want to actually go lend and earn a yield on your money that you have sitting idle or on your crypto, the you have sitting idle, you can do that as well.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that is what probably,
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[SPEAKER_00]: becomes appetizing to the average retail person out there, and I think that, you know, the more advanced people like to go in borrow and, you know,
14:48
[SPEAKER_00]: They borrow for different reasons.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Some people want to get levered up, other people just want to get as maximum exposures they can to different defy protocols and farming, and there's a lot of variety to it.
14:58
[SPEAKER_00]: But for the people who out there who just maybe have a bunch of like, you know, cryptositting around, what products can they lend or I guess what assets can they lend?
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[SPEAKER_00]: And what do you kind of see as a yield for them?
15:11
[SPEAKER_01]: The simplest things to lend a low is be stable coins.
15:13
[SPEAKER_01]: And so what we oftentimes recommend is like, if you're a trader or if you're just somebody that has some funds on chain, maybe you keep somebody to send around, you're sending money back to your family in a different country or something like that, we recommend you just lend your stable coins.
15:25
[SPEAKER_01]: And the nice thing here is that you can actually swap directly into them from the Jupiter router.
15:29
[SPEAKER_01]: So you don't even have to go to our website and click the funds in whatever else.
15:32
[SPEAKER_01]: You can just swap into a token.
15:34
[SPEAKER_01]: My favorite of them is juiced, which is the receipt token for JukeUSD.
15:39
[SPEAKER_01]: So you get our stablecoin to positive protocol.
15:41
[SPEAKER_01]: You get back at token code juice, which is paying something like 5.5% APY right now.
15:46
[SPEAKER_01]: Again, you can just swap directly from any token introduced and start earning that yield kind of continuously.
15:52
[SPEAKER_01]: That ends up being the kind of dominant kind of lending use case.
15:55
[SPEAKER_01]: There are people that lend sole as well, for example.
15:58
[SPEAKER_01]: So you can earn some extra yield on your sole.
16:00
[SPEAKER_01]: And then on the other side of the table, the most common kind of use case we see is multiply loops.
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[SPEAKER_01]: This is when you take an asset, you pair it with another asset as debt that is kind of pegged to the same price and then you kind of lever it off to amplify your returns.
16:13
[SPEAKER_01]: So, jubesoul is our liquid-staking tokens, a version of sold that accrues more rewards.
16:18
[SPEAKER_01]: have that as collateral, you borrow out sole as debt, and now those prices are fully pegged, right?
16:23
[SPEAKER_01]: Those prices move in tandem.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So you're never going to get liquidated on a price-based movement, but you can increase your yield by kind of borrowing sole, getting more juice sole, borrowing more sole, et cetera, and going back and forth in that loop.
16:33
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think right now it's something like 17% APY on holding sole.
16:37
[SPEAKER_01]: So as I said, just holding regular naked sole, you could hold this in our 17% or something like in those baths.
16:43
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, those rates are variable, it's worth saying, so they sometimes hire some extra lower.
16:46
[SPEAKER_01]: But that is, I think, like a really simple and easy use case for many people to do.
16:51
[SPEAKER_01]: Even with juiced, I will say, the juiced loop as we call it, you can earn about 13% on your stablecoins with very kind of vanilla lending.
16:59
[SPEAKER_01]: There are risks, you should look at them, we have mallister on the website, but it's a very, it's a relatively straightforward way to earn some extra yield on your assets.
17:07
[SPEAKER_00]: for sure, yeah, I think that's interesting.
17:09
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that's a lot higher than the average staking rate.
17:12
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's what I think some people look at is saying, oh, okay, well, I can't go from earning nothing if I sit on it.
17:18
[SPEAKER_00]: I can earn a little bit more if I stake it, I can get a few percentage points, then you're looking at lending, which is interesting.
17:24
[SPEAKER_00]: I always think that it makes sense that if you're lending, you should be earning more than the base staking rate.
17:29
[SPEAKER_00]: And in this case, it sounds like you are, which I think makes sense, right?
17:33
[SPEAKER_00]: I've never understood that, right?
17:34
[SPEAKER_00]: You go to some places and it's like,
17:37
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, 5% staking and you'll earn, you know, 3% or 2% lending.
17:42
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, well, I don't know if that really makes enough sense to make it.
17:47
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think it's often times those products, I think, are can be a little bit deceptive or kind of trick people a little bit that it makes sense.
17:55
[SPEAKER_01]: Or, hey, maybe you want to just farm the token error drop rewards that might be commoners.
17:59
[SPEAKER_01]: There's like some other non economic kind of reason to do it there.
18:03
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I want to talk about security as well, right?
18:07
[SPEAKER_00]: This will be maybe the one of the final notes on this topic, because I mean, just curious how you manage risk and security with something like this, because the listeners out there are probably have a slight case of the jitters from what happened fairly recently here with AVA and Kelp Dow.
18:25
[SPEAKER_00]: And that situation spooked a lot of people, right?
18:28
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, Avay, big name in the lending space, been around for a while.
18:32
[SPEAKER_00]: I know that this probably had a little bit more to do with Kelp Dow, but we talked to Spark about this, who is another Ethereum-based project, so a little bit outside Salana, but we talked to them and they're like, yeah, this wouldn't have been able to even been possible through Spark.
18:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Nonetheless, right?
18:48
[SPEAKER_00]: I think people just have the jitters.
18:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Something like this happens.
18:51
[SPEAKER_00]: It's gnarly.
18:52
[SPEAKER_00]: There's been quite a few like exploits and hacks and whatever we want to call this year.
18:56
[SPEAKER_00]: What kind of measures do you take to manage risk and security when it comes to a lending product, which people are a little bit nervous about?
19:05
[SPEAKER_01]: Indeed, and I will tell you from a builder perspective, it is the scariest or products to build.
19:09
[SPEAKER_01]: Because it is this giant pool of $2.2 billion that's on-chain, and so security is like the main thing that we think about.
19:15
[SPEAKER_01]: It's the main thing that keeps us up and night.
19:17
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it probably comes down to three different factors.
19:19
[SPEAKER_01]: So the first and the most obvious is code quality, right?
19:22
[SPEAKER_01]: You need to make sure that your code is
19:24
[SPEAKER_01]: been audited, Jupiter-Lend has been audited seven times, you want it to be open source because if it's open source, people can really dig in a packet in the right ways, we've been open source for many months, and you want to be formally verified, right?
19:34
[SPEAKER_01]: Formal verification is basically like a fine tuning of some of the individual parameters that help prevent certain economic use cases.
19:40
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a higher bar, it's a different, slightly different bar than an audit, but it's another way to kind of instill that confidence.
19:46
[SPEAKER_01]: So on the code side, we feel very confident, right?
19:49
[SPEAKER_01]: Seven audits, open source, formerly verified bug bounty program out there, all that kind of stuff.
19:53
[SPEAKER_01]: And then that's where a lot of people stop, we go the next step, right?
19:56
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's code, and then it's also operational security.
19:59
[SPEAKER_01]: This is where you've seen some other projects get really hit recently.
20:02
[SPEAKER_01]: This is one of the things that happened to drift as an example.
20:05
[SPEAKER_01]: And so what we try to do is focus on our multi-secret authority, so it's never just one person that can edit the protocol.
20:11
[SPEAKER_01]: You need six out of 10 signers.
20:12
[SPEAKER_01]: And critically, we have time locks on it, right?
20:15
[SPEAKER_01]: So even if somebody was able to control six wallets and then pass through some kind of update, there'd be a 12 to 24 hour delay on their ability to actually, for those changes going live.
20:25
[SPEAKER_01]: which gives us time and anybody else time to kind of monitor a situation in reverse it or whatever else it is.
20:30
[SPEAKER_01]: So that 12 hour time lock that we have is extremely helpful.
20:33
[SPEAKER_01]: But then the third case, and this is the one most relevant to the obvious side, it's also about asset selection.
20:38
[SPEAKER_01]: And the amount of due diligence you're doing on your assets and the type of rate limits you put on assets to make sure that they can't disproportionately impact the protocol.
20:45
[SPEAKER_01]: So, Jupiter-Lend, we have one primary market, and then we also have this Athena Market, as a separate completely separate instance.
20:51
[SPEAKER_01]: But in the main market, you'll notice that there's not a lot of different types of collateral, right?
20:54
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't have 80 different tokens that you can use.
20:57
[SPEAKER_01]: It's somewhat limited, and people come to us all the time, like, hey, can you list this ass I can bring it on?
21:02
[SPEAKER_01]: And we don't, because we need to keep it highly, highly curated.
21:05
[SPEAKER_01]: And then we also have dynamic, great limits to make sure people can outwithdraw too much.
21:09
[SPEAKER_01]: And if there was to be an exploit, and some other kind of control, it's to make sure that those asset problems don't hit us.
21:14
[SPEAKER_01]: And if they did it us, they'd be very much limited in the size of the impact.
21:18
[SPEAKER_00]: that's a good point right if people come in they say oh well i want to be able to lend anything and i want to be able to you know all my favorite altcoins and what i sounds good in theory while that sounds good on paper being able to lend anything and earn yield on everything and all all that it actually creates probably more
21:38
[SPEAKER_00]: of a security risk, right, because then you have all these different and high revenues where God forbid one happens or something happens to one of what now is very many different protocols that you have options for.
21:51
[SPEAKER_00]: You have more counterparty risk that way, right?
21:54
[SPEAKER_01]: absolutely right yeah i mean and to be clear we could make way more money than we are making out we are very like specifically giving up on revenues in order to put security first and obviously there's a lot of like great assets that are out there that you know primary or any of these things that are on salon that have a lot of yield people would love to loop them users ask us all the time and you know our primary focus is not on revenue it's not on kind of growth vbl it's on security and make sure that things stay safe
22:19
[SPEAKER_00]: for sure.
22:20
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I think that's a good way to think about things.
22:22
[SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, again, fill the listeners out there.
22:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Sorry.
22:26
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, if you're, if your favorite altcoin isn't something that you can, you know, don't want to blend, but at the end of the day, it probably is for the best because security really is what matters the most.
22:36
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think cryptos at a point now where people,
22:38
[SPEAKER_00]: want to see a focus on that, you know, that they want to stop seeing deep by exploits, and they want to stop seeing hacks.
22:44
[SPEAKER_00]: And they want to see this be thought of as a very like traditional next generation solution.
22:49
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think the, you know, one of the first steps, there's many ways that we can kind of get there.
22:53
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think one of the big steps that the crypto industry needs to take is to stop seeing these exploit and hack headlines and stuff like that.
23:00
[SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, it helps everyone take it a little bit more seriously.
23:04
[SPEAKER_00]: You just feel safer in it, too.
23:08
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, there's a lot of other products.
23:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Where do we even begin with some of the rest of these?
23:13
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to ask you here.
23:14
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not sure if you can pick a favorite child, but what are some of your favorites here in the rest of these products?
23:21
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, no matter what I say, I'm gonna piss somebody at Jupiter off, you know what I got there.
23:25
[SPEAKER_01]: It seems like 150 people, some of them are gonna aiming after this.
23:27
[SPEAKER_01]: I think the product that is that I use the most as Jupiter mobile, so I use our mobile wallet, I think it is by far the best mobile, it's substantially cheaper than other platforms, and it's more performant, and it honestly just has more features.
23:40
[SPEAKER_01]: Jupiter lens, what do you mean by it?
23:42
[SPEAKER_00]: What do you mean by its cheaper than other platforms?
23:45
[SPEAKER_01]: the fees are much less.
23:46
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, you'll get other wallets.
23:48
[SPEAKER_01]: I won't name any names, but you know, the charge 85 dips for transferring between stablecoins doesn't make a lot of sense to me, why there'd be fees on transferring between different stablecoins.
23:58
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, you know, we have zero fees on swapping different stablecoins.
24:02
[SPEAKER_01]: And even on volatile tokens, you know, oftentimes the fees are much much less on our end.
24:06
[SPEAKER_01]: Somewhere between 8 to 10 times cheaper, depending on who you're comparing us to for many tokens.
24:10
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's just like kind of what we think makes more sense quite honestly rather than kind of maximizing fees because over time those users will notice that they're losing quite a bit of money You losing 85 dips every trade, you know, that really has a material impact on your portfolio over time and then you'll stop using on chain technology.
24:26
[SPEAKER_01]: and you'll go back to centralized exchanges or whatever else it is.
24:29
[SPEAKER_01]: So we try to keep the fees as low as possible.
24:32
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's also about features, right?
24:33
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not just about fees.
24:34
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's not a Jupyter mobile.
24:35
[SPEAKER_01]: You can see your entire D5 portfolio.
24:38
[SPEAKER_01]: So if you have assets in any other protocols, that will show up directly there.
24:41
[SPEAKER_01]: So you can see your whole portfolio at once.
24:43
[SPEAKER_01]: We have P&L, which is a feature that most other or many other wallets don't have for some strange reason.
24:48
[SPEAKER_01]: Lending built-in.
24:49
[SPEAKER_01]: We now have stablecoin credit card, or excuse me, stablecoin payments card, built-in as well, and a few other things that a lot of other folks don't have.
24:56
[SPEAKER_01]: So, Jupiter mobile and the extension wallet, I'll say today.
25:00
[SPEAKER_01]: But if you ask me to borrow it, my people are full of you.
25:02
[SPEAKER_01]: The next day, it's verified.
25:03
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's like it changes all the time.
25:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
25:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, is there any products that you have not yet had it?
25:10
[SPEAKER_00]: And you're like, I really want to.
25:12
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe it didn't work out.
25:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe you're working on it.
25:16
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, maybe it's just a thought, but like, are there any products out there that are yet to go live to the public that you're interested in and, you know, potentially like, open to you or looking into?
25:29
[SPEAKER_01]: There is actually one, so it's still in private beta.
25:32
[SPEAKER_01]: It's going to be coming down in public beta very soon, but it's called Offerbook.
25:36
[SPEAKER_01]: And Offerbook is another credit product, actually.
25:38
[SPEAKER_01]: But it has a fundamentally different model than Jupiter-Lander, most other borrowland protocols out there.
25:43
[SPEAKER_01]: Most of them are pool-based, right?
25:44
[SPEAKER_01]: And as I said, you need to have very curated assets election, you need high quality oracles, deep dex liquidity to handle liquidations and all these other things.
25:52
[SPEAKER_01]: Offerbook is a kind of radical new take on how lending can work on chain.
25:56
[SPEAKER_01]: And they're what we're doing is an orderbook based method instead of a pool-based method.
25:59
[SPEAKER_01]: Right?
25:59
[SPEAKER_01]: So indexes, you might think of like A&M's versus clubs, like central mid-order books.
26:04
[SPEAKER_01]: This is similar kind of kind of difference.
26:07
[SPEAKER_01]: And what's really cool about this is that it's fully peer-to-peer lending.
26:10
[SPEAKER_01]: So instead of peer-to-pool, like Jupiter-land, it's peer-to-peer, which means that you can have any asset as collateral, as long as there's a lender who's willing to lend against it.
26:19
[SPEAKER_01]: And there's no price-based liquidations either.
26:21
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the kind of crazy part of it here, right?
26:24
[SPEAKER_01]: And so that actually provides a bunch of other benefits, but the primary one is you don't need dex liquidity.
26:29
[SPEAKER_01]: You don't need oracles.
26:30
[SPEAKER_01]: And so this is really what's going to support using Pokemon cards as collateral, using watches as collateral, using mean coins as collateral, using anything, any asset that is on chain can suddenly become a productive asset in the sense of either generating yield or being used as collateral for you to borrow against.
26:46
[SPEAKER_01]: That is the one I'm most excited about.
26:47
[SPEAKER_01]: It is definitely a little bit further out there in terms of like defy innovation land, but be sure that to Quentin and Matt and the rest of the team who have been working really hard on that should be live very soon.
26:56
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, be interesting to see how that kind of disrupts the existing lending landscape.
27:00
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and when it does come out, you'll certainly have to let us know.
27:04
[SPEAKER_00]: We like making tutorials every year.
27:06
[SPEAKER_00]: We got a YouTube channel too, and at any time something new comes out, we love to put out a tutorial on it.
27:12
[SPEAKER_00]: Because there's usually people inside of our community who are interested in using it.
27:16
[SPEAKER_00]: So definitely give us a message, you want it to live, and we'd love to hear about it.
27:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's talk about Solana's ecosystem.
27:29
[SPEAKER_00]: There I say, I'm going to say the forbidden words here, but the bear market that we've been in.
27:33
[SPEAKER_00]: The bear market that we've been in, despite that, Salana has remained one of, if not, I would say, it has remained the most active chain in crypto when you're looking at just raw activity and transactions and stuff like that.
27:50
[SPEAKER_00]: Salana has remained just the most active.
27:53
[SPEAKER_00]: What does that meant for Jupiter as a DeFi platform?
27:58
[SPEAKER_00]: And I guess how has that maybe changed?
28:01
[SPEAKER_00]: How does that change going from like a bulldo a bear market?
28:05
[SPEAKER_01]: It certainly changes the kind of composition of how people are using the platform, right?
28:09
[SPEAKER_01]: So in a bull market, there's a much higher demand for leverage.
28:12
[SPEAKER_01]: There's obviously much more trading of meme coins and these other things.
28:15
[SPEAKER_01]: And in the bear market, you see people going back to basics, right?
28:18
[SPEAKER_01]: Stablecoin yield, for example, rather than trying to like get max leverage or just not earn your own stablecoins, rather than trading every new token as soon as it's launched.
28:25
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe you're trading more of the majors and so forth.
28:28
[SPEAKER_01]: And so what we've seen is a lot more people using our stablecoin payments card that just came out called Jupiter Spend inside of the mobile app, that's now doing like millions of dollars a month in volumes, which maybe would not have been the case in a mobile market where people are just kind of spending their crypto, they're just trying to trade it up, right?
28:44
[SPEAKER_01]: We're seeing more people coming and kind of doing deeper research on tokens as well, so not necessarily
28:49
[SPEAKER_01]: Aping into every last token that's created within 10 seconds, but doing a little bit deeper research using our terminal product.
28:56
[SPEAKER_01]: And so you're seeing kind of like different hotspots kind of emerge in the products we'd right now.
29:01
[SPEAKER_01]: What's been really cool is that because we've been the default place to trade on sauna for so long and are now becoming the default place to earn yield as well.
29:07
[SPEAKER_01]: bull market or bear market, people kind of continuously come back to the website or come back to the mobile app and start to discover new ways that they can kind of like have fun on chain.
29:15
[SPEAKER_01]: So prediction markets is something that we launched somewhat recently.
29:18
[SPEAKER_01]: We're seeing all time highs every week in terms of volumes on our prediction market.
29:22
[SPEAKER_01]: Despite the fact that volumes overall obviously are down in the ecosystem.
29:26
[SPEAKER_01]: So you see different things kind of rise in fall based on what the market structure is like.
29:31
[SPEAKER_00]: That is interesting.
29:32
[SPEAKER_00]: I was about to ask you what different areas do you see kind of wax and wane with market cycles?
29:39
[SPEAKER_00]: And it makes sense.
29:40
[SPEAKER_00]: I think obviously in a bull market, you're going to see trading go up, you're going to see perpetuals and leverage and stuff like that go up.
29:47
[SPEAKER_00]: But in more of like a bear market or in a market slowdown, it sounds like you're seeing more activity in stable coins.
29:53
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you see, I guess what other products besides that sees more activity in a bull market versus a bear market?
30:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Honestly, Jupiter and Len has continued to grow despite the bear market.
30:03
[SPEAKER_01]: So even with all these hacks and the defy liquidity crisis that's out there and so forth, I do think that the total adjustable market for savings is much larger than the total adjustable market for trading, right?
30:14
[SPEAKER_01]: Even though crypto was built on trading rather than on savings, I think you're starting to see that kind of shift a little bit right now, especially in this bear market.
30:20
[SPEAKER_01]: As more people receive stablecoins through
30:22
[SPEAKER_01]: payments or from their employers or from their friends or wherever there's more of a desire to kind of have the savings type product on chain.
30:28
[SPEAKER_01]: And so Jupiter Lens has been one of the very few protocols that has seen substantial growth throughout the bear market as well.
30:35
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's really one, like a prediction market, this is another big one.
30:38
[SPEAKER_01]: And then actually we have a new product called Verified, which is basically a token information layer that helps identify like high quality information about legitimate tokens.
30:47
[SPEAKER_01]: And we're seeing more people use that every day,
30:52
[SPEAKER_01]: tweets all by humans, not by AI, and kind of verify tokens, and so we're seeing more and more energy piling into that right now too.
30:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Wow, so if you had the nearer down in terms of activity, what are the top three most active areas of Solana right now?
31:07
[SPEAKER_00]: It could be trading, it could be deep in, it could be prediction markets, it could be lending, it could be anything, what are your top three verticals for Solana right now?
31:17
[SPEAKER_01]: So number one with a bullet has to be payments, actually.
31:19
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think they name a Q1 of 2026, salonidate about $2 trillion, just a Q1.
31:26
[SPEAKER_01]: For stablecoin volumes, right?
31:28
[SPEAKER_01]: So a lot of people are using stablecoins.
31:30
[SPEAKER_01]: It's now the number one chain.
31:31
[SPEAKER_01]: We kind of de-throw into Tron, which had been number one for a very long time, in terms of stablecoin volumes.
31:35
[SPEAKER_01]: So people are just using the network to move money around the world, whether you're in a institution and you're back in operations or like a retail person like myself.
31:43
[SPEAKER_01]: Stablecoins are certainly one major area to be looking at.
31:47
[SPEAKER_01]: I think we're also seeing a lot of e-genetic payments, I should say, something like 65% of all e-genetic payments are happening on salon right now as well, which is helping contribute to those volumes too.
31:56
[SPEAKER_01]: So payments is a big one.
31:58
[SPEAKER_01]: Lending is certainly ascendant as well, especially is more high quality assets come on chain.
32:04
[SPEAKER_01]: And then finally it's actually trading, but not trading of like meme coins and stuff, but tokenized equities trading has really been a bright spot.
32:11
[SPEAKER_00]: So next stuff.
32:11
[SPEAKER_00]: So
32:12
[SPEAKER_01]: or something like x-docs, exactly.
32:13
[SPEAKER_01]: So you can use UTradx-docs in Ando through Jupiter, where in parts of it, both of those teams.
32:19
[SPEAKER_01]: And now you can actually use x-docs in Jupiter, or lend as well, to borrow against and earn some yield on.
32:24
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think that's a lot of do something like 95% of all tokenized equities trading volume, right?
32:30
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's largely where that's going to happen.
32:32
[SPEAKER_01]: And we're seeing that increasingly turn into this gateway drug, where
32:35
[SPEAKER_01]: you know, you're a guy in the Philippines or in, you know, whatever other market it might be.
32:39
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, in Germany or whatever, you don't want the high fees and the kind of the the paperwork that's associated with traditional brokerage accounts, come directly on chain.
32:47
[SPEAKER_01]: You can on ramp super easily.
32:48
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, with Jupiter global our product, you can on ramp for free, actually bring money on chain from any bank account and then instantly buy stocks, use the MediFi, sell them at any time 24-7, buy fractional shares, etc.
32:59
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think tokenized equities are going to
33:06
[SPEAKER_00]: What do you make of the memecoin stuff?
33:09
[SPEAKER_00]: Because in the last, let's just call it the last cycle, right, the last two or so years, memecoins were a huge part of Solana, driving a massive part of the activity and just getting a lot of attention.
33:21
[SPEAKER_00]: You saw all these different launch pads go forth,
33:25
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a lot of activity towards that.
33:26
[SPEAKER_00]: It seems as if from my perspective and you'll have to let me know from right.
33:30
[SPEAKER_00]: But it seems as if Solana's moving a little bit away from being the meme coin chain and having so much meme coin activity and moving more towards
33:41
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to ruffle feathers, I'm trying to think of the best way to say this, but it sounds like it's moving more towards like, like, there I say really uses, right, like, purpose driven uses, we love being points over here, right, we love them, we have team members who are so, you know,
33:56
[SPEAKER_00]: purpose over here is like let's talk meme coins and do them.
33:59
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a lot of money to be made in them, but it does feel as if there's a little bit less of a concentration of like, hey, meme coins being points, meme coins, and now there's different areas like you said like, you know, to a conversation lending AI, it feels like that is gaining market share while meme coins are losing it on Solana.
34:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think that's certainly supported by the data right now as well.
34:19
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, this, I'm not counting meme quads out.
34:21
[SPEAKER_01]: Who knows what's going to happen tomorrow?
34:22
[SPEAKER_01]: Now I might, they might search up again.
34:24
[SPEAKER_01]: I think meme quans kind of represent this kind of fundamental tension that's at the heart of crypto that I might describe is like the casino and the church, right?
34:31
[SPEAKER_01]: And crypto is both casino and church.
34:34
[SPEAKER_01]: And the casino, you have people who are here for entertainment or to change the life financially or whatever else it might be.
34:39
[SPEAKER_01]: And on the church side, you have those who think that decentralized technology is a better way to do finance that is going to undergird.
34:44
[SPEAKER_01]: you know, the trillions of dollars of value in the kind of mainstream financial system and so forth.
34:49
[SPEAKER_01]: And you have these kind of two camps.
34:50
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think Salana has always kind of uniquely been the best place where you see this kind of synthesis between the casino and the church coming together.
34:57
[SPEAKER_01]: So the meme coins, it was a lot of fun.
34:59
[SPEAKER_01]: It was very kind of profitable.
35:01
[SPEAKER_01]: It's what makes Salana so lucrative for a lot of businesses, including Jupiter or it did previously.
35:06
[SPEAKER_01]: But critically, it stressed has did the network, right?
35:09
[SPEAKER_01]: You cannot actually scale to real-world usage until you're
35:14
[SPEAKER_01]: And meme coins, Lord knows, they put it on under a lot of pressure, right?
35:18
[SPEAKER_01]: Just the amount of usage, the amount of, I mean, we were seeing something like 70,000 new tokens being created per day at the height of the meme coin boom, right?
35:27
[SPEAKER_01]: And so that kind of stress has the network itself and every project on it.
35:31
[SPEAKER_01]: It's made as much stronger, I think.
35:33
[SPEAKER_01]: And yes, it is now true that because the network is so much stronger and actually can be used, people use it for stablecoin payments.
35:39
[SPEAKER_01]: users came on and they stuck around so now they're using Lenny Protocols and trading tokenized equities in RWAs and whatever else it might be.
35:46
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think it was a critical part of the growth.
35:48
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't think the book is closed on mean points for what it's worth, but yeah, I would assume it will continue to be a smaller and smaller share of Sloan story over time.
35:57
[SPEAKER_00]: Would that ever give you guys headaches when like the meme-quin mania was at its hype all the time?
36:03
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm sure it right it probably help you guys make a lot more off of fees and stuff but the same time It was probably hard to keep up with
36:10
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, my good, I said, I mean, the hard part with routing is that you have to look at every single trade that's happening across the entire kind of chain in any given time to identify the right pricing, and then split it up, and then, you know, people really wanted to trade the second, like literally the first block that these tokens were created, and the work that we had to do in God bless our engineering team to kind of reduce latency, make sure the transactions with land, with minimal fees, minimal slippage.
36:34
[SPEAKER_01]: We need to develop an entire real-time slippage estimator so that users were not getting wrecked.
36:38
[SPEAKER_01]: There's been, you know, so many like a technical improvements that came our way and there was more than a few, you know, 3 a.m. better stack notifications.
36:46
[SPEAKER_01]: Hey, this thing's gone down.
36:47
[SPEAKER_01]: We go pick it on to it.
36:48
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, I don't think our engineers slept much during that period.
36:50
[SPEAKER_01]: It's time to be honest.
36:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, they're probably resting well now.
36:54
[SPEAKER_00]: I think, thank goodness it's cooled down.
36:56
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think mostly don't sleep even now if I'm being honest.
37:00
[SPEAKER_01]: I've been different here.
37:02
[SPEAKER_01]: They're just always finding difficult problems to solve.
37:04
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll be honest.
37:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Plus because they're decentralized engineers.
37:07
[SPEAKER_00]: That's why.
37:08
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
37:10
[SPEAKER_00]: They were built for this purpose, but cash, man, really appreciate you coming on here at lots of great conversations.
37:19
[SPEAKER_00]: Do we miss anything?
37:20
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to make sure that we cover everything.
37:22
[SPEAKER_00]: Is there anything that we missed that we should have talked about?
37:26
[SPEAKER_01]: I think anyone that's watching this right now should go give Jupiter spend a try.
37:31
[SPEAKER_01]: So go get the Jupiter mobile app and try our stablecoin card.
37:33
[SPEAKER_01]: It's got some of the best features we have up to 10% cash back right now on it.
37:39
[SPEAKER_01]: Incredibly low fees.
37:39
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I said, free on ramping and off ramping as well.
37:42
[SPEAKER_01]: Direct bank accounts, multiple currencies live in 60 or 70 different countries.
37:45
[SPEAKER_01]: So for people, I know there's been a lot of talk of crypto cars lately.
37:48
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that if you try Jupiter spend, you'll never go back to anything else.
37:52
[SPEAKER_01]: So encourage people to check that one out.
37:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Alright, well, I like that.
37:57
[SPEAKER_00]: We'll have to let the users know and all the listeners out there go ahead, use it, let us know, we'd love to hear back from you.
38:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Cash, where else can people find you at?
38:07
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe they want to follow along, they want to test some of these different products, they want to see your social medias, where can they find you at?
38:14
[SPEAKER_01]: Best place to find me for better or for worse and probably for worse is on Twitter or X or whatever people want to call out these days.
38:20
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm at Cash Donda.
38:22
[SPEAKER_01]: I tweet more than I probably should so yeah if you want to kind of stay up to date it what's going on in Sloan of D5 Jupiter and you know occasionally good reading recommendations and other nonsense that's what you should find me awesome we'll catch thank you so much for tuning in here we appreciate your time and to all those seniors out there we'll see all of you at the same time at the same place next