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Transcript

Chilling Obsession · The Knife: A True Crime Podcast

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.
• 0:05
  Speaker 2: The claims and opinions in this podcast are those of
• 0:07
  Speaker 2: the speaker and do not necessarily represent The Knife or
• 0:10
  Speaker 2: exactly Right Media.
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  Speaker 3: I feel very sick to my stomach because clearly what
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  Speaker 3: has happened is someone has been pretending to be me.
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  Speaker 3: I'm like, you need to call the police. This is
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  Speaker 3: a crime. Someone has been impersonating me that is not me.
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  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Knife. I'm Hannah Smith, I'm Patia Eton,
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  Speaker 1: and today we're speaking with Kylie Burse. Kylie is a
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  Speaker 1: meteorologist living in Colorado. She loves her job and connecting
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  Speaker 1: with her local community, but for the last three years,
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  Speaker 1: she's been the victim of a stalker. Kylie walks us
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  Speaker 1: through the events that led to her feeling unsafe in
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  Speaker 1: her own home. She's recently gone public with her story
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  Speaker 1: and hopes to shed light on the systems that fail
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  Speaker 1: victims of stocking and how we need to do better.
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  Speaker 1: Let's get into the interview, Kylie. Welcome to the Knife.
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  Speaker 3: Thank you for having me.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, we're really excited to speak with you today. If
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  Speaker 1: you can just start by introducing yourself, that'd be great.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm a local news meteorologist. I am here on
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  Speaker 3: the local Fox ability in Denver. I'm a morning meteorologist,
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  Speaker 3: so we're on from four thirty until about eleven o'clock
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  Speaker 3: every morning and I've been doing it for almost fifteen
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  Speaker 3: years now. Been here in Denver for about eight years.
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  Speaker 3: I originally studied journalism. I thought I wanted to be
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  Speaker 3: a work correspondent, you know, an investigative reporter. And I
• 1:45
  Speaker 3: did it for about a year. And I remember in
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  Speaker 3: my first job, my boss goes, I saw on you're
• 1:48
  Speaker 3: reel from college. You did ski reports at Cuboulder. He's like,
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  Speaker 3: can you do weekend weather for a little bit? We
• 1:53
  Speaker 3: just need them help. And I'm like, okay, sure, I'll
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  Speaker 3: take you know, whatever job I can get. This was
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  Speaker 3: just after the recession, so you took the job and
• 2:00
  Speaker 3: you did whatever. And I really loved it. And I
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  Speaker 3: remember I covered really horrible crime cases. I covered an
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  Speaker 3: execution at one point, and I was like, this is
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  Speaker 3: not for me. I'm a very empathetic person. And what
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  Speaker 3: I loved about the weather and meteorology is that you
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  Speaker 3: got to be on the forefront of before the disaster happened.
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  Speaker 3: So hopefully you could educate people, and when you showed
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  Speaker 3: up to a scene, you know that you did everything
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  Speaker 3: you could to help them. Know how to get through
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  Speaker 3: a tornado safely, how to drive safe in a snowstorm,
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  Speaker 3: don't drive through flooded waters. I liked the education part
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  Speaker 3: versus just showing up when tragedy had already happened and
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  Speaker 3: there was nothing you can do. You felt very helpless.
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  Speaker 3: I felt like as a journalist versus as a meteorologist,
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  Speaker 3: I felt like I was actually doing something that was
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  Speaker 3: helping people.
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  Speaker 2: As a local meteorologist, Kylie is someone that people are
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  Speaker 2: going to every morning for reliable information in a place
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  Speaker 2: where the weather can be pretty extreme. This cultivates a
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  Speaker 2: sense of familiarity and also a sense of trust. And
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  Speaker 2: sometimes when Kylie's out around town, she gets recognized. And
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  Speaker 2: most of the time she loves.
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  Speaker 3: It when someone comes up to you and they say, Hi,
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  Speaker 3: I watch you every morning, we wake up with you,
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  Speaker 3: we turn you know, the TV on every morning, and
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  Speaker 3: they feel comfortable enough to come up and tell you.
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  Speaker 3: That's when I feel like I've done a really good job.
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  Speaker 3: Because you want people to feel like we are your friend,
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  Speaker 3: we are part of your morning routine. We're someone that
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  Speaker 3: you can trust, right and if they feel comfortable enough
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  Speaker 3: to come up and say hi to you, it's the
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  Speaker 3: world's the biggest compliment. You've done something right in your job.
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  Speaker 3: And I can remember the first time someone recognized me
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  Speaker 3: and it's such a it's a weird feeling. But now
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  Speaker 3: it's just like you're you're grateful every single time. Ninety
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  Speaker 3: five percent of the time is extremely positive. There are cases,
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  Speaker 3: and it's happened in my entire career where it's immediately
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  Speaker 3: uncomfortable and you kind of know, Okay, I just need
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  Speaker 3: to keep like hence, you know, arms distance away from
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  Speaker 3: this person. But I'd say that's a very small fraction
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  Speaker 3: of the time.
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  Speaker 1: Take us to the beginning of this interaction with the
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  Speaker 1: person that we're going to talk about. What's the first
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  Speaker 1: kind of interaction that you remember having.
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  Speaker 3: I remember it really well actually because it was an
• 4:00
  Speaker 3: unusual interaction, but there were some red flags in it.
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  Speaker 3: I was one of the they called a celebrity judges
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  Speaker 3: for all the local news. Friends. We got together and
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  Speaker 3: we judged a firefighter chili cookoff, which is a blast.
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  Speaker 3: You go, you're interacting with the fire men and women
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  Speaker 3: they're incredible, and we invite the public. For years, I've
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  Speaker 3: always put charity events on the news, but on my
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  Speaker 3: Instagram it said come support this amazing cause. So sometimes
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  Speaker 3: you get people who come up they say, Hey, I
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  Speaker 3: saw you talking about this, I wanted to come out.
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  Speaker 3: I wanted to meet you. Normally, when people come up
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  Speaker 3: to you, they come up and they say it quick hello,
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  Speaker 3: and then they're able to mingle them with the crowd.
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  Speaker 3: Go try the chili.
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  Speaker 2: Over three thousand people attend the annual Denver Firefighters Chili Cookoff.
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  Speaker 2: It's a massive event. People come together to taste the chili,
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  Speaker 2: but more importantly to raise money for local organizations that
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  Speaker 2: help firefighters and their families. And in twenty twenty two,
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  Speaker 2: Kylie was attending as a judge. Kylie and the other
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  Speaker 2: judges made their way around the event, going from booth
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  Speaker 2: to booth, trying the different chilis, and that's when she
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  Speaker 2: first noticed him.
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  Speaker 3: I remember he followed our group, probably about thirty forty
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  Speaker 3: feet away, just kind of stood in the background. You know.
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  Speaker 3: We usually had a couple of bigger guys with this group,
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  Speaker 3: just to kind of know if people were to get
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  Speaker 3: a little bit too aggressive. They could kind of step in,
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  Speaker 3: but he wasn't aggressive by any means. He was just
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  Speaker 3: in the background. He came up a few times. He
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  Speaker 3: told me he drove over an hour to come and
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  Speaker 3: meet me. I was very flattered, and he kind of
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  Speaker 3: followed the whole time, just kind of watched, and at
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  Speaker 3: the end came and said goodbye, and we said goodbye.
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  Speaker 3: I didn't really think too much of it from there.
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  Speaker 2: I'm curious in those interactions, like does someone who recognize
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  Speaker 2: you do you hug, do you handshake? Is it more
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  Speaker 2: of just like a wave or what does that interaction
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  Speaker 2: look like?
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  Speaker 3: You know, I mean, it can be so different. I've
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  Speaker 3: had people who I've absolutely wanted to hug it and
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  Speaker 3: they'll be like respectful. Most people don't. I'd say it's
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  Speaker 3: usually a handshake. Usually it's just they come up and
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  Speaker 3: they say hello, and you talk for a little bit.
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  Speaker 3: It's usually extremely pleasant, at least on my end. I
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  Speaker 3: hope they able pleasant experience too, that's always the goal
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  Speaker 3: of it. But sometimes they want to give you a hug.
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  Speaker 3: And most of the time that's totally fine. And a
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  Speaker 3: lot of times the last two did he want to
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  Speaker 3: give you a hug? I don't remember in this circumstance.
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  Speaker 3: He did in later interactions would go in for the hug,
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  Speaker 3: but in this one I don't remember specifically. This was
• 6:19
  Speaker 3: at this point someone that was just a viewer who
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  Speaker 3: I didn't know anything about.
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  Speaker 2: So we aren't going to use his name, But Kylie,
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  Speaker 2: could you tell us a little bit about what this
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  Speaker 2: man looked like?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, he seemed very non threatening. He was very kind,
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  Speaker 3: very jolly. He was in his mid sixties, He had
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  Speaker 3: a mustache. He was extremely friendly to everyone who interacted
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  Speaker 3: with him.
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  Speaker 1: And so, you know, you go to this charity event,
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  Speaker 1: you meet him, you sort of notice him, at least
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  Speaker 1: in the moment. It's a little noticeable. Oh, he seems
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  Speaker 1: to be sort of maybe sticking around a little longer
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  Speaker 1: than other people do, but he doesn't seem that thattning.
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  Speaker 1: And then when is the next time that this same
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  Speaker 1: person comes on your radar?
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  Speaker 3: I started to notice there were some emails and some
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  Speaker 3: Instagram messages, nothing that was particularly noteful. I get a
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  Speaker 3: lot of people who respond. When you're trying to build
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  Speaker 3: a personal brand and get to know people, you're responding
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  Speaker 3: to just about everyone, So I'd say there was some
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  Speaker 3: light interaction that had happened via email and on Instagram.
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  Speaker 3: And then the next time of note was when I
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  Speaker 3: threw my own personal fundraiser for I have a hiking
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  Speaker 3: website called Approach we Outdoors, and we were raising money
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  Speaker 3: for children here in Colorado. It was a dream that
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  Speaker 3: I'd always had, and I obviously advertised it to the public.
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  Speaker 3: I had family that came up to help me put
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  Speaker 3: it on. And that day I showed up about an
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  Speaker 3: hour and a half early to the restaurant to get
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  Speaker 3: set up, and there were a couple of people and
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  Speaker 3: he was one of them who had showed up early
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  Speaker 3: to help. And I was trying to say, thank you
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  Speaker 3: so much. It's actually a little bit more helpful if
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  Speaker 3: you just wait downstairs. We haven't actually opened up tickets yet.
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  Speaker 3: He kind of whenever I would go to open a box,
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  Speaker 3: he'd go grab the box and start on doing the box. He's,
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  Speaker 3: you know, he's saying, I'm here to help. Put me
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  Speaker 3: to work, and I'm here to help, so I'm assuming
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  Speaker 3: very kind intentions on his part. At that point, I
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  Speaker 3: just needed me and my friends and family to get
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  Speaker 3: the fundraisers set up as quickly as possible. He stayed
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  Speaker 3: for the whole fundraiser, and a lot of people interacted
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  Speaker 3: with him and they said, oh, that really nice older man.
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  Speaker 3: You know, he drove over an hour to come and
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  Speaker 3: see you today. That's so sweet. And I describe it
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  Speaker 3: as overzealous at this point, which I'd experienced with a
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  Speaker 3: lot of viewers in the past. But it was a
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  Speaker 3: little bit annoying to have someone while you're trying to
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  Speaker 3: dictate and order, kind of jump in and try and
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  Speaker 3: mitigate that for you. So it was a little frustrating.
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  Speaker 3: He stayed and then he helped kind of unpack again.
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  Speaker 3: I said, no, no, but he wasn't leaving.
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  Speaker 1: It's like the house guest who keeps trying to help
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  Speaker 1: in the kitchen and you're like, please just literally go
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  Speaker 1: sit on the couch until I'm done. And here they're
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  Speaker 1: unloading the dishwasher and they're putting everything away in the
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  Speaker 1: wrong spot.
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  Speaker 3: Where does this go?
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  Speaker 2: Where does it?
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  Speaker 3: Yea yeah, okay, yeah yeah.
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  Speaker 2: Firs Kylie chalked up this man's enthusiasm to just being
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  Speaker 2: excited to meet her. Even him driving an hour to
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  Speaker 2: show up at one of her events didn't really face
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: her because fans did that. Sometimes it's when he began
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  Speaker 2: reaching out to her on Instagram and leaving this steady
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  Speaker 2: stream of direct messages and comments that it all became
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: very off putting. This gave Kylie pause, but it didn't
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: quite feel dangerous, at least not yet.
• 9:27
  Speaker 3: In the months after the fundraiser, it more so became
• 9:31
  Speaker 3: extremely frequent and started to become a little obsessive. And again,
• 9:36
  Speaker 3: I have dealt with this for a long time, but
• 9:39
  Speaker 3: then he started reaching out to my friends and family
• 9:42
  Speaker 3: to the point where people were contacting me and saying, hey,
• 9:46
  Speaker 3: this guy's reaching out, and that became odd. It was
• 9:50
  Speaker 3: at that point that he started reaching out to my
• 9:52
  Speaker 3: friends and family that I started to then block his
• 9:54
  Speaker 3: social media accounts. And when you block someone on Instagram,
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  Speaker 3: it blocked any newccount that they might make with that
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  Speaker 3: email address, right if anyone's ever blocked someone who says
• 10:03
  Speaker 3: that he probably by the end of this had seven
• 10:06
  Speaker 3: or eight different accounts, which means he had to make
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  Speaker 3: different emails every single time, and they always had his
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  Speaker 3: name in it, so they were very easy to spot.
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  Speaker 3: And he would go through and constantly on each new
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  Speaker 3: account be adding my friends who were private messaging them.
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  Speaker 3: And I remember what really kind of broke the back
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  Speaker 3: for me was when he reached out to my sister
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  Speaker 3: in law and he was pretending like he was going
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  Speaker 3: interested and she was an artist, she's a beautiful artist,
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  Speaker 3: and he's going on and on about what he wants
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  Speaker 3: to buy and everything, and then the interaction gets very
• 10:36
  Speaker 3: odd and she tells my brother, and my brother goes,
• 10:38
  Speaker 3: that's the guy that Kylie's been dealing with, and he
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  Speaker 3: messaged me and he's like, look, he can't be reaching
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  Speaker 3: out to my wife, Like this is completely inappropriate. And
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  Speaker 3: at this point I've changed, not only with all the blocking,
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  Speaker 3: I've changed my social media habits. No family members are
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  Speaker 3: being tagged anymore. Anyone who's not public, I'm not using
• 10:56
  Speaker 3: their handle because he would go and find them and
• 10:59
  Speaker 3: message them.
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: When he reached out to your sister in law. How
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: long had this been going on?
• 11:04
  Speaker 3: Oh, about a year year and a half at this.
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  Speaker 1: Point, Wow, who all in your life did you notify
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: that this was going on?
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  Speaker 3: I noticed by several other meteorologists. I kind of went
• 11:14
  Speaker 3: through my list and saw who he was following and
• 11:17
  Speaker 3: just gave them a heads up. We do that a
• 11:18
  Speaker 3: lot if someone's a little extra creepy we'll send each
• 11:22
  Speaker 3: other a quick message. Hey, heads up, this guy he's
• 11:24
  Speaker 3: following you. You may just want to block him. He
• 11:27
  Speaker 3: got a little bit weird in X, Y and Z ways,
• 11:29
  Speaker 3: so I just let a couple other people know this
• 11:31
  Speaker 3: guy's following you. It's gotten a little bit too much
• 11:35
  Speaker 3: to the point I've had to block, and he kind
• 11:36
  Speaker 3: of talked to my friends and family a lot. And
• 11:38
  Speaker 3: I also want to say at this point, like there's
• 11:40
  Speaker 3: nothing threatening, there's nothing mean. It's just a lot of
• 11:44
  Speaker 3: messages and then the new accounts and whatnot. So it's
• 11:48
  Speaker 3: borderline where you're like, this feels wrong and it is wrong,
• 11:51
  Speaker 3: But is he technically officially at this point doing anything wrong.
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: Can you give me an example of one of the
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: messages that comes in. I mean, I wouldn't expect you
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: terms remember verbatim, but like something close in nature to
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: one of those messages, like was it hope you have
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: a good day, or like, what kind of messages was
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: he sending early on?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, just responding to like I would travel and every
• 12:15
  Speaker 3: single story I would post, love this, hope you're having
• 12:18
  Speaker 3: fun again, Nothing that's raising any red flags. So it's
• 12:22
  Speaker 3: more just commenting on every single one, I'd wake up
• 12:25
  Speaker 3: in the morning and he would have spent hours going
• 12:27
  Speaker 3: back through and liking every single one on my posts
• 12:30
  Speaker 3: from a new Instagram account after I had already blocked him,
• 12:33
  Speaker 3: so I would see the hundreds and hundreds of likes
• 12:36
  Speaker 3: in the notifications. So it didn't necessarily strike me as
• 12:40
  Speaker 3: concerning in a threatening way at this point, but the
• 12:42
  Speaker 3: obsession is what started to make me feel a little uneasy.
• 12:47
  Speaker 3: And then when it really reached a point was my
• 12:50
  Speaker 3: friend was traveling and she was in Thailand and he
• 12:54
  Speaker 3: responded to her story saying, I can't wait to take
• 12:57
  Speaker 3: Kylie here, And so she messaged me and she's like,
• 12:59
  Speaker 3: now it's getting weird.
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's sort of I mean already, the knowing that
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: someone's blocked you and then creating another account to then
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: continue messaging them, and then this happening multiple times is
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: an indicator that maybe someone's mental state. But that message
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: is so concerning, right, It's like, what reality is this
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: person living in?
• 13:20
  Speaker 3: I remember at the time saying, if we can just
• 13:22
  Speaker 3: block and ignore, I really hope his obsession stops. If
• 13:26
  Speaker 3: I can kind of cut off the source, you know,
• 13:28
  Speaker 3: because sometimes when you're dealing with people who send you
• 13:31
  Speaker 3: nasty emails, and not that this person was being nasty,
• 13:33
  Speaker 3: but when people are targeting you in a way online.
• 13:36
  Speaker 3: I've dealt with this for years in the local news.
• 13:39
  Speaker 3: If you give them the response, it's what they want
• 13:43
  Speaker 3: and it almost escalates them further. And so that was
• 13:46
  Speaker 3: always my thought was, I don't want to escalate this further.
• 13:49
  Speaker 3: I don't want to escalate this.
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: Kylie pretty reasonably hoped that if she simply ignored this person,
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: then surely they would take a hint. He would leave
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: her alone, he would understand that she was not interested,
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: and the whole thing would just fizzle out. But that
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: did not work. He wouldn't go away. Kylie really didn't
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: want to escalate this, but soon she wouldn't have a choice.
• 14:19
  Speaker 3: In summer of twenty twenty three, I'm blocking multiple accounts
• 14:23
  Speaker 3: at this point, and I lead hikes for a local
• 14:26
  Speaker 3: wine classic, and so I was up in the mountains
• 14:29
  Speaker 3: and at this point I had called the company ahead
• 14:31
  Speaker 3: of time because I'd worked with them for a couple
• 14:32
  Speaker 3: of years, and I said, can you just double check
• 14:34
  Speaker 3: that this man didn't buy tickets? We've just had some issues.
• 14:36
  Speaker 3: I was like, nothing to worry about but we've had
• 14:38
  Speaker 3: some concerns. And they looked and they were like nope,
• 14:41
  Speaker 3: and I was like, great, we are good to go.
• 14:43
  Speaker 3: I'm like, please flag that name if he does, you know,
• 14:46
  Speaker 3: buy a ticket and whatnot. I would like to know.
• 14:48
  Speaker 3: And the way that it works is we lead a hike,
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: we're with a wine maker, we have a little wine
• 14:52
  Speaker 3: on the trail, and then we come back down for
• 14:54
  Speaker 3: a paired meal. I'm leading a group about twenty to
• 14:57
  Speaker 3: thirty people, so I'm responsible for all of these people.
• 15:00
  Speaker 3: We come down off of the hike and I had
• 15:01
  Speaker 3: publicly said come join us on this hike and whatnot.
• 15:06
  Speaker 3: And we get down from the hike, we're heading into
• 15:08
  Speaker 3: the restaurant and he shows up and he's holding a
• 15:11
  Speaker 3: box and he kind of stops me as I'm walking.
• 15:13
  Speaker 3: He gets in front of me and I know exactly
• 15:15
  Speaker 3: who he is, and so I say, Hi, I go
• 15:18
  Speaker 3: what are you doing here? He's like, I haven't been
• 15:20
  Speaker 3: able to get you to respond. You know, I've been
• 15:22
  Speaker 3: trying to see you. I've been trying to see you.
• 15:24
  Speaker 3: And I was like, I'm so sorry, I don't know
• 15:26
  Speaker 3: what you're talking about. I was like, I'm actually here
• 15:28
  Speaker 3: with a group and he's got a box in his
• 15:30
  Speaker 3: hand and he goes, I have your hiking boots and
• 15:33
  Speaker 3: I said, you know, I'm so grateful, this is really nice,
• 15:35
  Speaker 3: but I can't accept these. And he's insisting and I say,
• 15:40
  Speaker 3: you know, like they're not my size, maybe you could
• 15:42
  Speaker 3: return them, and he goes, you told me these were
• 15:45
  Speaker 3: your size. And at this point, this is when I
• 15:48
  Speaker 3: start to realize that something else had been happening here.
• 15:51
  Speaker 3: And he pulls out his phone because I said, I
• 15:54
  Speaker 3: didn't tell you my size. I haven't been talking to you.
• 15:58
  Speaker 3: Pulls out his phone and he shows me thousands of
• 16:01
  Speaker 3: messages he's just scrolling and he goes, I've been talking
• 16:03
  Speaker 3: to you. We've been in a relationship for the last year.
• 16:07
  Speaker 3: And I immediately I feel very sick to my stomach
• 16:12
  Speaker 3: because clearly what has happened is someone has been pretending
• 16:15
  Speaker 3: to be me. I'm like, you need to call the police.
• 16:18
  Speaker 3: This is a crime. Someone has been impersonating me. That
• 16:21
  Speaker 3: is not me. I'm so sorry. We are not in
• 16:23
  Speaker 3: a relationship. And he's crying. Keep in mind, I have
• 16:28
  Speaker 3: a group of people who are walking past me, and
• 16:31
  Speaker 3: I said, you know, I'm really sorry. You need to
• 16:33
  Speaker 3: file a police report. I hope you haven't given them
• 16:35
  Speaker 3: any money. I would never ask for money. And he's crying.
• 16:38
  Speaker 3: But there's also something that's weird because he's pulling out
• 16:40
  Speaker 3: the phone and my friend looks at it and she goes,
• 16:43
  Speaker 3: that's not an area code she's associated with it. All
• 16:46
  Speaker 3: He goes, I know she's not from there, and she
• 16:50
  Speaker 3: was like, well, if you knew that wasn't her area code,
• 16:51
  Speaker 3: why would you think that was her? She goes, none
• 16:55
  Speaker 3: of these this is not how Kylie speaks. And now
• 16:58
  Speaker 3: it's getting just a little bit funky. At this point,
• 17:01
  Speaker 3: an employee, actually the head of the festival, comes out
• 17:04
  Speaker 3: and he's like, is everything okay. I'm like, I'm so sorry.
• 17:06
  Speaker 3: So I've been trying to leave for several minutes at
• 17:08
  Speaker 3: this point, and he's crying. It's a very just horrible
• 17:12
  Speaker 3: situation because at this point I feel very guilty that
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: someone has potentially scammed someone using my name. But then
• 17:18
  Speaker 3: we go inside and I get alerted that he has
• 17:20
  Speaker 3: now tried to come back into the building multiple times,
• 17:23
  Speaker 3: and each time one of those employees kind of knew
• 17:25
  Speaker 3: what was happening and stopped him and said, you know,
• 17:27
  Speaker 3: you're making Kylie really uncomfortable. You need to leave. He'd
• 17:30
  Speaker 3: be like, he'd leave and then he'd come back. I
• 17:32
  Speaker 3: need to talk to Kylie. I need to talk to Kylie.
• 17:34
  Speaker 3: And then I start getting text messages from him. He says,
• 17:39
  Speaker 3: I'm so sorry. If you and your boyfriend break up,
• 17:41
  Speaker 3: maybe we can start over. By the way, your information
• 17:45
  Speaker 3: is out there.
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: Even after having been told by Kylie in person that
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: she did not know him, that she wasn't the person
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: he was speaking with online, and that likely someone was
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: actually just impersonating her, she tried completely ignoring him on
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: social media, and he still managed to track down her
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: number and send her a text. It was all really alarming.
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: Kylie had made it so clear that she had no
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: desire to be in contact with this man, but then
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: came the emails, and in those emails, this man addressed
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: Kylie as his wife.
• 18:18
  Speaker 3: And at this point, in order to then pursue a
• 18:20
  Speaker 3: restraining order of some kind, you need to say you
• 18:24
  Speaker 3: have to please stop contacting me, and so I go,
• 18:26
  Speaker 3: please do not contact me again, and he says, I'm
• 18:29
  Speaker 3: going to talk to on the other number. And that's
• 18:32
  Speaker 3: when I realized that he does not believe that I
• 18:34
  Speaker 3: am not a relationship with him.
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: As this interaction is happening and he's becoming emotional and upset.
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: Who all is around and seeing it and what is
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: the reaction.
• 18:48
  Speaker 3: I had a very good friend with me who is
• 18:50
  Speaker 3: also in the local news, and she knew all about
• 18:54
  Speaker 3: the situation with him. She was one of the people
• 18:56
  Speaker 3: that he was reaching out to and whatnot. So she
• 18:58
  Speaker 3: was with me, and she was the one who kind
• 19:01
  Speaker 3: of clocked faster than I did, and we got insign
• 19:04
  Speaker 3: She's like, no, I'm not buying it. She goes, this
• 19:06
  Speaker 3: is clearly a scam. Anyone could see that, So she's
• 19:09
  Speaker 3: clocking it before I did. The director of the festival
• 19:11
  Speaker 3: was there and the photographer, who were both men and
• 19:14
  Speaker 3: quite physically much bigger than this person who was here,
• 19:18
  Speaker 3: and they were witnessing it, and they came and they
• 19:21
  Speaker 3: helped extricate me from the situation, get him to leave,
• 19:25
  Speaker 3: and then again asked him to leave multiple times after that.
• 19:27
  Speaker 3: So I think most of the people in my group
• 19:29
  Speaker 3: were kind of unaware of what was happening, but the
• 19:32
  Speaker 3: people who are running the event and whatnot were amazing
• 19:35
  Speaker 3: in helping kind of diffuse that situation.
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: When he pulled this up, you know you and your
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: friend saw that it wasn't just one side a him
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: texting a number. There was a back and forth. He
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: was texting someone and he said he believed that was you,
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: or was pretty convinced it sounds like that that was you.
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: And even when you said that's not me, that's not me,
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: I don't know what you're talking about, he couldn't be convinced.
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: It sounds like that that wasn't you.
• 20:05
  Speaker 3: And that's what was scary. When he said I'm going
• 20:07
  Speaker 3: to keep talking to any other number after he'd gone.
• 20:10
  Speaker 3: I don't know how he found my cell phone number
• 20:12
  Speaker 3: that time, but after he's texting me, I'm saying, please
• 20:15
  Speaker 3: don't talk to me again. I won't text you here,
• 20:17
  Speaker 3: but I'm going to talk to any other number. So
• 20:19
  Speaker 3: it became very apparent that he did not believe. Maybe
• 20:22
  Speaker 3: he thought I was lying in front of other people
• 20:24
  Speaker 3: and whatnot, but there was no convincing him that it
• 20:26
  Speaker 3: wasn't me.
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah. We had an interview with someone recently, professor in
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: Canada who his identity has been used multiple times to
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: scam people online. His picture and interesting. One of the
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: things he said is that he's had women it's mostly women,
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: not a woman that they've used to scam, you know,
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: scam with his photo. And then he'll have people reaching
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: out to him looking for answers, right like, haven't we
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: been in a relationship for two years? And he talked
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: about the process of convincing someone that, no, you have
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: not been talking to me. He was married at the time.
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: He said, I've never heard of you.
• 21:05
  Speaker 3: This is not me.
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: Someone else is using my identity online. And sometimes people
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: got it right away. Sometimes people could not be convinced
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: and were combative and just refused to believe him, you know,
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: for a lot of probably different reasons. But one of
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: the things that probably was happening I can guess is
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: that he goes back and he's texting this other person
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: and they're saying any number of excuses as to why
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: you're acting this way. That's such a tricky position for
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: you to be in because it's like, what are you
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: supposed to do? You don't want to keep interacting with
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: this guy.
• 21:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah, to hear that there is some kind of reasoning
• 21:42
  Speaker 3: behind it and that someone else's experienced, Okay, you couldn't
• 21:45
  Speaker 3: convince them to doesn't make me feel a little less
• 21:47
  Speaker 3: alone in that situation and lends a little bit of credibility.
• 21:51
  Speaker 3: You're telling this person it's not me and not understanding
• 21:53
  Speaker 3: why they're not believing.
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: It, Yeah, exactly, and then not knowing what they're capable of.
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: So you did respond to him, you know, and said
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: please stop contacting me. Is that because you had already
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: looked into what you needed in order to get a
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: restraining order?
• 22:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Since it was escalating, especially with the point of
• 22:11
  Speaker 3: my family, I had talked to a couple of people
• 22:12
  Speaker 3: in law enforcement about what next steps might be. And
• 22:16
  Speaker 3: that was the advice that I was given is you
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: have to tell them, like you have to have the
• 22:20
  Speaker 3: proof of do not contact me again. And that's the
• 22:23
  Speaker 3: beginning of the restraining order process. So in Colorado, I
• 22:26
  Speaker 3: can't speak for you know, other states and whatnot, but
• 22:29
  Speaker 3: this was just my experience going through it. For a
• 22:32
  Speaker 3: temporary restraining order, you first go to the judge and
• 22:35
  Speaker 3: you say, here is the evidence. Do you see cause
• 22:39
  Speaker 3: for this? And then you have to serve them and
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: then there's a hearing. So I had to have in
• 22:44
  Speaker 3: order to serve him his birthday. This is a stranger
• 22:47
  Speaker 3: to me. A lot of times it's like domestic violence situations,
• 22:50
  Speaker 3: and I kept telling people this is a stranger of you,
• 22:52
  Speaker 3: or I don't know who this person is. I don't
• 22:54
  Speaker 3: have their address, and they go, well, you can't get
• 22:55
  Speaker 3: a restraining order unless you figure all of that out.
• 22:58
  Speaker 3: You're almost becoming your own investigated person, using all my
• 23:02
  Speaker 3: resources to find him. And then eventually there is a
• 23:05
  Speaker 3: court date they are allowed to show up as well.
• 23:07
  Speaker 3: And the way that the process works is you have
• 23:09
  Speaker 3: a couple of different choices. You can go to a
• 23:12
  Speaker 3: hearing and battle it out, or you can choose to
• 23:14
  Speaker 3: do a temporary restraining order and that is one year.
• 23:18
  Speaker 3: There's no contact within that year, which the judge says
• 23:21
  Speaker 3: is ninety something percent of the time. It goes away.
• 23:24
  Speaker 3: It's not on their permanent record. It's not something they
• 23:27
  Speaker 3: have to disclose for housing or for work or anything
• 23:29
  Speaker 3: like that.
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: Eventually, Kylie succeeded in having this man served, and in
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: September of twenty twenty three, they both stood in a
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: courtroom in front of a judge. This man had been
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: spamming Kylie's email, her phone, her social media accounts, completely
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: refusing to accept that he and Kylie were not in
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: a relationship, that she did not know him, that she
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: did not want to hear from him at all, and
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: his behavior in this courtroom was, to say the least,
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: pretty bizarre.
• 24:00
  Speaker 3: Heart's laughing to the judge and he's like, I don't
• 24:03
  Speaker 3: know why I'm here. I have no reason to talk
• 24:05
  Speaker 3: to this woman. This is all a big misunderstanding. Da
• 24:08
  Speaker 3: da da da da. So I'm actually relieved at this point.
• 24:11
  Speaker 3: The judge is like, well, then there shouldn't be any problems,
• 24:14
  Speaker 3: and we agree to that temporary restraining order. And she
• 24:18
  Speaker 3: makes it very clear we had extra stipulations in the
• 24:20
  Speaker 3: restraining order about absolutely no social media contact, and she
• 24:24
  Speaker 3: told him if you even follow her, if you like
• 24:27
  Speaker 3: any pictures, all of that is a violation of that
• 24:30
  Speaker 3: restraining order. And there was also no coming to events.
• 24:34
  Speaker 3: She says, if you show up at an event and
• 24:35
  Speaker 3: she's there, you must leave. That's on you. And he's yes, ma'am, absolutely,
• 24:41
  Speaker 3: and again it's just he's laughing. He's like, there's no
• 24:43
  Speaker 3: reason for me to ever speak to this woman again
• 24:46
  Speaker 3: until two months later when he broke it more than
• 24:48
  Speaker 3: fifty times.
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: And so at this point, do you feel like he's
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: fully registering that you are not the person he's been
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: talking to, that whoever he's talking to is not you.
• 25:01
  Speaker 3: At the time, Yeah, thought I thought he had it.
• 25:04
  Speaker 3: He's standing up in court. Yeah, these are very real
• 25:08
  Speaker 3: consequences for what's happening. And again, if we had just
• 25:11
  Speaker 3: stuck to that temporary restraining order and he never contacted
• 25:15
  Speaker 3: me again, he would have absolutely nothing to do with
• 25:19
  Speaker 3: me when it comes to the criminal justice system. He
• 25:21
  Speaker 3: would be done. He'd be living his life. I'd be
• 25:23
  Speaker 3: living my life. And so it wasn't until he broke
• 25:26
  Speaker 3: it that I realized this man may not be well
• 25:30
  Speaker 3: because he's not understanding the consequences of his actions at
• 25:34
  Speaker 3: this point.
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I just can't help. But wonder if he's
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: still talking with that other person, and if that other
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: person is saying, oh, I have to do this for
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: my public persona, but you should reach out to me.
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: I don't know, or maybe he's not talking with the
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: other person, maybe this is all sort of in his head,
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: like I have no idea, but alarming neither way. What
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: kind of stuff was he saying to you when he
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: broke the temporary restraining RM It.
• 26:01
  Speaker 3: Was a new Instagram account, Because again he's blocked, so
• 26:03
  Speaker 3: it's a brand new one. He's going back through. He's
• 26:05
  Speaker 3: liking photos and he's commenting nice things on all of
• 26:08
  Speaker 3: the photos. He's responding to every story and whatnot. And
• 26:13
  Speaker 3: the judge had told me, and this feels very uncomfortable.
• 26:16
  Speaker 3: She said, even for a social media post, you have
• 26:19
  Speaker 3: to call nine one one and report it as a
• 26:21
  Speaker 3: criminal report. And so I remember, like I had all
• 26:24
  Speaker 3: the screenshots and everything, and it was about two days
• 26:27
  Speaker 3: and finally I blocked him again. I was like, I'm stopping.
• 26:29
  Speaker 3: I'm saving from yourself. Just stop. And the police came
• 26:32
  Speaker 3: to my door and they're like, I don't know if
• 26:34
  Speaker 3: this counts, and I'm showing him the restrainer. I'm like,
• 26:35
  Speaker 3: the judge said, I had to do this, like this
• 26:38
  Speaker 3: is part of the orders here. And that's when I
• 26:41
  Speaker 3: went back in to get the permanent restraining order. He
• 26:44
  Speaker 3: made all the comments in December of twenty twenty three,
• 26:46
  Speaker 3: and then it was January twenty twenty four we went
• 26:48
  Speaker 3: back in for that permanent restraining order hearing.
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: Kylie attended the January twenty twenty four hearing. Virtually for
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: two years now, this man had been sending her unwanted
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: messages referring to as his wife and just simply refusing
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: to leave her alone. But when he showed up in court,
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: Kylie said it was like watching this completely different person
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: that it almost felt like whiplash. He'd been aggressively reaching
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: out to her online, he'd broken their temporary restraining order,
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: and here he was the seemingly calm, affable person. Kylie
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: wondered how the judge might then see him.
• 27:24
  Speaker 3: He was still, you know, very jovial and kind of
• 27:26
  Speaker 3: joking with the judge, but there was definitely more of
• 27:28
  Speaker 3: a well, I didn't say anything, mean, there's nothing threatening.
• 27:32
  Speaker 3: He's like, I didn't do anything wrong, and she just
• 27:35
  Speaker 3: kept trying to tell him it doesn't matter. You have
• 27:38
  Speaker 3: a restraining order, like you're not supposed to speak. We
• 27:40
  Speaker 3: talked about this is you know, actually it was a
• 27:42
  Speaker 3: different judge. It was listed in there, so it was
• 27:44
  Speaker 3: stated in the restraining order that you cannot with social
• 27:48
  Speaker 3: media and whatnot, so it became very different. And then
• 27:51
  Speaker 3: at one point he's kind of giving a speel I'm
• 27:54
  Speaker 3: not speaking at all. I'm just muted on zoom and whatnot,
• 27:59
  Speaker 3: and then he goes, you know, judge, I think she
• 28:01
  Speaker 3: has a drinking problem, and I was like, what, And
• 28:08
  Speaker 3: so then he's like, I'm like, are you trying to
• 28:10
  Speaker 3: blame me for this? Like it was just bizarre, and
• 28:13
  Speaker 3: I was like And once that final cour interaction was
• 28:17
  Speaker 3: when all sympathy and empathy that I had for this
• 28:20
  Speaker 3: human was out the window, because I feel like I
• 28:23
  Speaker 3: gave him a lot of chances and I felt very
• 28:26
  Speaker 3: badly that there was someone who was potentially scamming him.
• 28:29
  Speaker 3: But then after I saw how manipulative he was in court,
• 28:33
  Speaker 3: and first the laughing in the first time and then
• 28:36
  Speaker 3: turning it back on me as if being stalked is
• 28:39
  Speaker 3: somehow my fault for drinking. And I don't even know
• 28:42
  Speaker 3: where that would how that even plays any sort of relevance.
• 28:45
  Speaker 3: But that was when the permanent restraining order was given
• 28:48
  Speaker 3: and I did not hear from him for a year
• 28:50
  Speaker 3: and a half.
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: A year and a half, I mean that's a long time.
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: How many months or weeks into that year and a
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: half did you feel like, Okay, it's over, or did.
• 29:00
  Speaker 3: You after three or four months? I thought okay. But
• 29:05
  Speaker 3: what I was worried about, and I've mentioned this a
• 29:07
  Speaker 3: couple of times, was I was worried about further escalation,
• 29:10
  Speaker 3: the fact that I took him to court. Is he
• 29:13
  Speaker 3: mad at me? Is there retaliation that he wants? So
• 29:16
  Speaker 3: it definitely took several months for me to feel settled
• 29:19
  Speaker 3: and not constantly just kind of keeping an eye out
• 29:21
  Speaker 3: for a new name and a new profile and whatnot.
• 29:24
  Speaker 3: And then six months later and for the next year,
• 29:28
  Speaker 3: I felt really good and really safe, and I hadn't
• 29:30
  Speaker 3: thought about it.
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: The more time that passed without Kylie being contacted by
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: this man, the more it felt like maybe she'd gotten
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: what she'd wanted all along, which was just to be
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: left alone, that this might finally be over. But on
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: the evening of September eleventh, twenty twenty five, just a
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: couple of months before we ended up speaking with Kylie,
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: the relief and sense of safety that she'd finally started
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: to get back it all went away again.
• 29:58
  Speaker 3: And I pulled into my garage. I back into it,
• 30:03
  Speaker 3: and as I'm backing in, I had noticed a truck
• 30:06
  Speaker 3: about to kind of pull via all the garages, and
• 30:09
  Speaker 3: I didn't know. I don't know all of my neighbors
• 30:11
  Speaker 3: on the alleyway, so I didn't think too much about it.
• 30:13
  Speaker 3: I'm parking my car and I look up and a
• 30:15
  Speaker 3: truck has pulled right in front of me and their
• 30:18
  Speaker 3: windows down, and it takes about a half second before
• 30:23
  Speaker 3: I realize who it is, and I just feel immediately sick.
• 30:27
  Speaker 3: My stomach dropped. I remember thinking, oh my god, if
• 30:31
  Speaker 3: he has a weapon, you need to get down as
• 30:33
  Speaker 3: quickly as possible. So I slowly reach up, hoping you
• 30:36
  Speaker 3: can't see my hands moving, and he's trying to talk
• 30:39
  Speaker 3: to me, and I just close my garage and I
• 30:42
  Speaker 3: go inside by going through the back. When it comes
• 30:45
  Speaker 3: to my garage and I'm in the house and I'm
• 30:48
  Speaker 3: calling my neighbor. I'm trying to ask if they have
• 30:50
  Speaker 3: cameras in the back, and that was when the doorbell
• 30:53
  Speaker 3: started ringing and my dog runs over to the door.
• 30:58
  Speaker 3: I look through the people and he's standing there, and
• 31:01
  Speaker 3: I just go, oh my god, Oh my god, and
• 31:04
  Speaker 3: my neighbor's like hang up, Call nine of one, Call
• 31:06
  Speaker 3: name on one right now.
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: In the neighborhood where Kylie lived at the time, the
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: garages were all in the back of the homes, so
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: you entered every garage through an alleyway and the front
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: doors are of course in the front of the house.
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: When Kylie went inside. She was for a moment hopeful
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: that he had just driven away, but he'd actually just
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: driven a couple of streets down and circled back to
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: the front of her house, and now he was standing
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: at her door. We don't know how he found out
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: where Kylie lived. Maybe he followed her home from work
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: or was able to look up her address somehow. Either way,
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: it was terrifying.
• 31:48
  Speaker 3: I hang up my call name on one. I literally
• 31:50
  Speaker 3: just grabbed my dog, grabbed my keys, run back out
• 31:53
  Speaker 3: the back door. So he had gone all the way
• 31:54
  Speaker 3: around to the front and he was standing on my
• 31:56
  Speaker 3: front door. And again, I don't know if he has
• 31:58
  Speaker 3: a weapon. I don't know what his intentions are. Why
• 32:01
  Speaker 3: is he at my garage, in my alley and then
• 32:04
  Speaker 3: around the front door? And so I call nine on
• 32:07
  Speaker 3: one and I'm running And I actually hadn't had a
• 32:10
  Speaker 3: panic attack since the last time I had had to
• 32:12
  Speaker 3: deal with him, and I'm having a panic attack as
• 32:15
  Speaker 3: I'm driving, and nine one one is saying, Okay, where
• 32:17
  Speaker 3: are you going? I go? I don't know. I don't
• 32:19
  Speaker 3: know where I'm going. I go. I have a restrainer
• 32:21
  Speaker 3: or against a man, a permanent one he's outside my
• 32:23
  Speaker 3: front door. I don't know what to do. So they
• 32:25
  Speaker 3: say you need to find a park or something, and
• 32:28
  Speaker 3: I'm just in tears, going I don't know. He could
• 32:31
  Speaker 3: be following me. I don't know. I don't want to
• 32:32
  Speaker 3: stop my car. And finally they convinced me to pull
• 32:35
  Speaker 3: over to a park and the officer comes and she's,
• 32:39
  Speaker 3: you know, we're talking, and she sent another officer to
• 32:42
  Speaker 3: my house. So at this point, maybe ten to fifteen
• 32:44
  Speaker 3: minutes have gone by, and she goes, I'm sending an
• 32:47
  Speaker 3: officer over. He's probably gone, but we'll check out the
• 32:50
  Speaker 3: area and then we can all go back to your
• 32:51
  Speaker 3: house together, and I go, okay. He had been sitting
• 32:54
  Speaker 3: out in front of the house in his truck. He
• 32:57
  Speaker 3: had not left, so he'd just been sitting there. And
• 33:01
  Speaker 3: at this point, my permanent restraining order never got put
• 33:04
  Speaker 3: into the system, and so the police officer is telling
• 33:07
  Speaker 3: me your temporary restraining order expired. We can't arrest this man.
• 33:11
  Speaker 3: I don't know if you guys have had a panic attack,
• 33:13
  Speaker 3: but for me, my hands are shaking. You know, you're
• 33:16
  Speaker 3: trying to type and figure it out, and I'm going, no, no, no,
• 33:19
  Speaker 3: you have to believe me. I have a permanent and
• 33:20
  Speaker 3: please don't let him leave. And I said, did he
• 33:23
  Speaker 3: say why he's there? He told the police that he
• 33:26
  Speaker 3: was trying to talk to someone at the station, and
• 33:27
  Speaker 3: this was the address that came up for the station.
• 33:31
  Speaker 3: So it's bizarre on every single level. The court does
• 33:35
  Speaker 3: get back to me right away. Give them a lot
• 33:36
  Speaker 3: of credit. And then I was able to find my
• 33:39
  Speaker 3: own copy, because you do have to have a copy
• 33:41
  Speaker 3: of that permanent restraining order, and so I found it.
• 33:43
  Speaker 3: They were able to arrest him, and they told me
• 33:46
  Speaker 3: at the time that it was for felony stocking and
• 33:48
  Speaker 3: he was heading to jail that night. Wow.
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: Just to make sure I'm tracking this correctly. So he
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: shows up to your house and you managed to leave.
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: You go to a park. Officer comes to where you
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: are and says, an officer to your home, but he
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: is still at your home while you're at this park,
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: and he tells that officer he was looking for the
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: police station. Sorry, TV station, TV station, TV station. Okay,
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: I see, okay, Sorry that could be confusing, but.
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: He was clear that he was looking for you.
• 34:21
  Speaker 3: Oh, I mean, I don't think you can interpret it
• 34:24
  Speaker 3: any other way. My house is seven hundred square feet.
• 34:27
  Speaker 3: There's not a television station studio inside of.
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: It, but he didn't admit that to them. He was like,
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: I'm looking for the station.
• 34:35
  Speaker 3: Yeah, And I did not see him. I had a
• 34:37
  Speaker 3: friend with me and he he's like, he's laughing again.
• 34:39
  Speaker 3: I've seen this man. He's very, very jovial, and you know,
• 34:42
  Speaker 3: he can kind of talk his way through a lot
• 34:43
  Speaker 3: of things. So he was taken to jail that night.
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: According to an article on the Denver Post, you know,
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: he was arrested in charge with violating a protection order
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: and notably did not get a stocking charge. Can you
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: kind of walk us through that and what was the
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: explanation given to you as to why he was charged
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: with violating a protection order?
• 35:08
  Speaker 3: So when I initially spoke to the detective and he
• 35:10
  Speaker 3: explained we are asking for felony stocking charges and that
• 35:14
  Speaker 3: he was still in jail, and they had said bond
• 35:16
  Speaker 3: very high on that charge for it was twenty thousand cash.
• 35:19
  Speaker 3: And the detective told me, he's like, I'm thrilled with this.
• 35:21
  Speaker 3: This is good news. He's likely not getting out of jail.
• 35:24
  Speaker 3: With him in jail, I felt very safe and he
• 35:27
  Speaker 3: is in jail. I know exactly where he is. I'm
• 35:30
  Speaker 3: not looking over my shoulder. And then I get a
• 35:32
  Speaker 3: call the next week from the detective and he said
• 35:34
  Speaker 3: he heard back from the DA's office in Denver and
• 35:37
  Speaker 3: they were not pursuing felony stocking. They did not believe
• 35:40
  Speaker 3: that it met the requirements. And he said the reason
• 35:43
  Speaker 3: was that there was that year and a half gap
• 35:47
  Speaker 3: in the stocking. So from January twenty twenty four to
• 35:51
  Speaker 3: September of twenty twenty five was a year and a
• 35:53
  Speaker 3: half and that timeline was too big of a gap
• 35:57
  Speaker 3: to be considered repeated. Because a big line is that
• 36:01
  Speaker 3: stalking has to be repeated for it to be at
• 36:03
  Speaker 3: this point in.
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: The state of Colorado. For something to be considered stalking,
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: a person has to knowingly make a threat, and crucially
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: for Kylie's case, those threats have to happen repeatedly. And
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: it was that word repeatedly that Kylie couldn't stop thinking about.
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: This man had shown up again and again at events
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: where he knew that she would be, He'd sent her
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: inappropriate messages, he'd even violated a temporary restraining order. But
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: then he went quiet for more than a year. Raising
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: the troubling question did that long silence break this legal
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: definition of repeatedly? Kylie told us that she spoke with
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: multiple attorneys trying to get a straight answer to the
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: same question how much time can pass between contacts for
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: it to still count as repeated harassment.
• 36:53
  Speaker 3: I have the conversation with the DA and it doesn't
• 36:56
  Speaker 3: provide much clarity because I kept saying, hey, there's no
• 36:59
  Speaker 3: timeline listed the statue, and he's telling me there's something
• 37:01
  Speaker 3: called common law practice and whatnot, and you know, basically
• 37:06
  Speaker 3: it's within the judge's discretion, but we don't think we
• 37:08
  Speaker 3: can get the conviction. We want to get him on something,
• 37:10
  Speaker 3: so we're going for the misdemeanor versus the felony, and
• 37:13
  Speaker 3: I'm pushing back on him. I go, okay, well, just
• 37:15
  Speaker 3: so I know, how long does this man have to
• 37:18
  Speaker 3: wait to come at me again, to contact me again,
• 37:22
  Speaker 3: to the point where you're going to go, oh, it's
• 37:23
  Speaker 3: not stalking anymore. Is it a year and a half?
• 37:26
  Speaker 3: He's like, I don't have an exact timeline, but a
• 37:28
  Speaker 3: year and a half is too long. I go, is
• 37:29
  Speaker 3: it a year in the car starcing? I can't say.
• 37:31
  Speaker 3: I can't say and I'm pushing back and find that
• 37:33
  Speaker 3: he goes it's a judgment call. And that was when
• 37:36
  Speaker 3: I realized that this wasn't a me situation. If this
• 37:41
  Speaker 3: was happening to me, they were probably doing this with
• 37:42
  Speaker 3: other cases, which just broke my heart for all those
• 37:45
  Speaker 3: other women and of course men who had dealt with this.
• 37:48
  Speaker 3: But I wasn't able to win that argument, and a
• 37:51
  Speaker 3: few days later he was let out of jail and
• 37:53
  Speaker 3: I went and moved into hotels.
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: That's mind blowing because to me, it's like, this guy
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: has had a year and a half of not contacting
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: you and still clearly not gotten over whatever he's grappling with.
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: He's still thinking about you, like a year and a half.
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: There are people who are in real relationships that are
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: over it in a year and a half. I mean, yeah,
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: that's awful to think about it being a judgment call
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: just because he had given you a little bit of
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: a break.
• 38:24
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and again, I don't know, Like I'm on TV
• 38:27
  Speaker 3: every day, I have no idea how he's interacting and
• 38:30
  Speaker 3: consuming any content that I'm putting out into the world.
• 38:33
  Speaker 3: I don't know. I keep an eye out for new
• 38:36
  Speaker 3: Instagram accounts and whatnot. But it's a public account. People
• 38:39
  Speaker 3: can go and they can look at it. So I
• 38:41
  Speaker 3: think it's almost scarier in a way that I didn't
• 38:43
  Speaker 3: hear from him and then escalated to the point of
• 38:45
  Speaker 3: following me home.
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because for a year and a half he didn't
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: hear from him, And so then how do you know
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: going forward to be comfortable or not, because there's clearly
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: he can go a long period of time not contacting you,
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: and then we don't know what it is that makes
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: him feel like he should go do this thing right,
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: like come find your house. And changing that from a
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: potential felony charge to a misdemeanor has real consequences. As
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: you mentioned the bail. You know, his bill got less
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: into like fifteen hundred dollars and so he was able
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: to get out. And then I think also potential sentencing
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: is dramatically lower based on.
• 39:23
  Speaker 3: My brief googling and speaking with lawyers. Yeah, it's very
• 39:27
  Speaker 3: likely he wouldn't face jail time for a misdemeanor. He
• 39:30
  Speaker 3: still might, but it would be more like one hundred
• 39:32
  Speaker 3: days or something like that. Yeah, but I'm not positive
• 39:34
  Speaker 3: on the specifics.
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: Where did that leave you, Like, how did you feel
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: learning this and then also learning that he was released
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: and is out in the world, I.
• 39:43
  Speaker 3: Felt very helpless. I felt like I did everything I
• 39:46
  Speaker 3: was supposed to do. I did the restraining order path,
• 39:49
  Speaker 3: I documented everything. I have put so much time in
• 39:52
  Speaker 3: my life into doing what the core system is telling
• 39:56
  Speaker 3: me to do correctly, and then I felt like it
• 39:58
  Speaker 3: was failing me. There was just nothing I could do
• 40:01
  Speaker 3: about it because I had tried to fight, I had
• 40:03
  Speaker 3: talked to other das, I had taught like I had
• 40:05
  Speaker 3: lawyers fighting for me, and I wasn't getting anywhere.
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: Learning that this man had been released while continuing to
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: speak with lawyers and fight for her own personal safety,
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: it's all been exhausting. As long as he's out in
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: the world, there's nothing to assure Kylie that he won't
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: come after her again, and each time he contacts her
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: it seems to be an escalation, which makes it really
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: hard to move on.
• 40:29
  Speaker 3: It changed my perspective on everything. Once your safety is threatened,
• 40:34
  Speaker 3: your whole world just shifts in perspective. I found other housing.
• 40:38
  Speaker 3: I was like, I can't be looking over my shoulder
• 40:41
  Speaker 3: sleeping here, and so I had a lot of relief
• 40:44
  Speaker 3: in that, which was nice at work. I felt safe.
• 40:47
  Speaker 3: We have a lot of security systems in place and whatnot,
• 40:50
  Speaker 3: so that was good. But it's interesting because now it's
• 40:54
  Speaker 3: been about two months, and every day that I wake up,
• 41:00
  Speaker 3: I look back and I go, WHOA, you were in
• 41:02
  Speaker 3: a really dark place and you didn't realize it. I
• 41:06
  Speaker 3: can't describe it as anything other than and forgive me.
• 41:09
  Speaker 3: I know a meteorologist. I felt like I was walking
• 41:12
  Speaker 3: around through fog, trying to navigate my life where nothing
• 41:16
  Speaker 3: seemed quite clear. People would ask me something and I
• 41:20
  Speaker 3: was like slow to respond. I felt like I just
• 41:24
  Speaker 3: couldn't find myself again. And at the time you were like, okay,
• 41:28
  Speaker 3: Like yeah, something weird just happened. You're kind of just
• 41:30
  Speaker 3: living through it. Two months later, looking back on the
• 41:34
  Speaker 3: mental state that I was in is astonishing how horrified
• 41:39
  Speaker 3: and terrified I was on a regular basis.
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: This is directly after when he came to your house
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: that you're talking about that period of time.
• 41:47
  Speaker 3: This is when I let him out of jail. I
• 41:49
  Speaker 3: felt safe when he was in jail. When he's in jail,
• 41:51
  Speaker 3: I know where he is. That's an easy thing to
• 41:54
  Speaker 3: feel safe with. It was when they let him out
• 41:56
  Speaker 3: of jail, and I'm the one who just put him
• 41:58
  Speaker 3: in jail. It's his fault. But again I'm just I'm terrified.
• 42:02
  Speaker 3: I'm looking over my shoulder for his truck everywhere I go.
• 42:05
  Speaker 3: And I can't describe it other than you feel physically
• 42:10
  Speaker 3: sick and you feel extremely exhausted. I remember just being
• 42:15
  Speaker 3: so tired and you know, unable to get out of
• 42:20
  Speaker 3: bed on like a Saturday. After I was like, oh
• 42:22
  Speaker 3: my gosh, like my body won't move, Like what's happening
• 42:24
  Speaker 3: to me? This is very odd? And I was like,
• 42:26
  Speaker 3: I work early mornings. You know, I'm kind of writing
• 42:28
  Speaker 3: everything off at this point, But again two months later,
• 42:30
  Speaker 3: looking back on it, I have a lot of lot
• 42:33
  Speaker 3: of empathy for myself and like what I was going
• 42:35
  Speaker 3: through when I didn't even realize how bad it was.
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: Of course, now looking back on her experience, Kylie understands
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: that even though this man never explicitly threatened her with
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: violence or threatened her life, his behavior, his messages, it
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: was all still a threat to her safety. And this
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: is the gray area that stalking victims sometimes find themselves in.
• 42:58
  Speaker 2: How many messages is too many messages? Should I wait
• 43:01
  Speaker 2: to report this to law enforcement? Until things escalate and
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: to what point.
• 43:08
  Speaker 3: It's so incredibly violating in a way that is hard
• 43:12
  Speaker 3: to put into words because I think that and I've
• 43:15
  Speaker 3: talked to people who have dealt with emotional abuse and relationships,
• 43:19
  Speaker 3: and I can kind of in my mind it's similar
• 43:22
  Speaker 3: when you're explaining it, because if you're in an emotional
• 43:24
  Speaker 3: abuse of relationship, you go, well, no one hit me,
• 43:27
  Speaker 3: no one's hit me, so and they're telling me that
• 43:29
  Speaker 3: I'm wrong, And there's that trying to wrap your mind
• 43:34
  Speaker 3: around something is wrong when you're looking at oh, I
• 43:39
  Speaker 3: love you, my wife and you know, have great trip
• 43:42
  Speaker 3: and whatnot. And it's obsessive, but it's not overtly threatening.
• 43:46
  Speaker 3: I think that's why I waited so long to pursue
• 43:48
  Speaker 3: that initial restraining order, because you're telling yourself, well, they're
• 43:51
  Speaker 3: not threatening me, they're not doing anything mean, they're not
• 43:54
  Speaker 3: showing up with a gun or you know, saying that
• 43:57
  Speaker 3: they're going to hurt me. They just they seem to
• 43:59
  Speaker 3: love me. They're obsessed. I just can't describe it in
• 44:02
  Speaker 3: any other way than it's a complete mind book. Trying
• 44:06
  Speaker 3: to wrap your head around this person who's obsessed with you.
• 44:09
  Speaker 3: You feel so violated. Your sense of safety is completely gone,
• 44:13
  Speaker 3: and no one's made an overt threat to you, but
• 44:16
  Speaker 3: you know there's a danger, and you know there's a threat.
• 44:18
  Speaker 3: You know it in your gut and everything in your body.
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: Kylie decided to go public with her story. She spoke
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: with the Denver Post, who published an article about her experience.
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: She wanted to raise awareness about how horrible it is
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: to be the victim of a stalker and how helpless
• 44:35
  Speaker 2: you can feel even when you pursue all the legal
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: options available to try to protect yourself. Kylie did this
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: in part because she knows she's not alone, and since
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: going public, she's received hundreds and hundreds of emails from
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: people who say they are experiencing the same thing. This
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: is both comforting and deeply unsettling.
• 44:56
  Speaker 3: And I will say I felt like I had a
• 44:58
  Speaker 3: secondary wave of emotional trauma after the article came out,
• 45:02
  Speaker 3: because I'm hearing from women and I had been hopeful,
• 45:06
  Speaker 3: like maybe this will stop at some point, But when
• 45:08
  Speaker 3: you're hearing from women and they're saying it's been years,
• 45:11
  Speaker 3: it's been five years, it's been ten years, and I
• 45:14
  Speaker 3: just went, oh my gosh, this might never end. Until
• 45:16
  Speaker 3: he dies and this might be my life looking over
• 45:20
  Speaker 3: my shoulder for a long time, all because I do
• 45:22
  Speaker 3: the weather on the local news and this person thought
• 45:25
  Speaker 3: we had something that wasn't there. I don't know. I'm
• 45:29
  Speaker 3: still trying to wrap my mind around that and if
• 45:32
  Speaker 3: I ever feel safe.
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: Again, yeah, and like you are a local news mediorologist,
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: but still you're really a part of the community that
• 45:43
  Speaker 2: you're speaking to every morning, and so like it's just
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: making me think about even the way that we live
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: in LA Like a celebrity walks down the street and
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: there could be a camera in their face and that's
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: still loud, and like it's expected almost well, if you're
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: a public figure and people are gonna I'm out of
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: the woodwork, But it's like where is the line? And
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: obviously not everyone who is a victim of stalking is
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: in the public eye at all, But if I had
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: been in your shoes, I probably would have rationalized it
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: as like, well, I'm on TV and they feel like
• 46:16
  Speaker 2: they know me and try to just push it away.
• 46:18
  Speaker 2: And also just I think that the way the justice
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: system reacts when we try to pursue something like a
• 46:26
  Speaker 2: restraining order, it sounds like you the first time got
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: a judge that understood that this guy needed some pretty
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: strict rules in place, and understood that you had no
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: association with him. This was in his head and that's
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: not always the case. And then you think about, like, well,
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: if then the justice system kind of minimizes it, what
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: do you do mentally even or emotionally You're like, am
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: I Am I making this up?
• 46:55
  Speaker 3: Yeah? I was actually warned by a DA in a
• 46:58
  Speaker 3: different county in Colorado and they said, you know, he goes,
• 47:01
  Speaker 3: it's important that you're coming forward with this story. He goes.
• 47:04
  Speaker 3: The unfortunate flip side is that a lot of people
• 47:07
  Speaker 3: are going to see this and feel discouraged and not report.
• 47:12
  Speaker 3: And that broke my heart. And he said, you know,
• 47:14
  Speaker 3: that doesn't mean don't do it. It's just you're experiencing what
• 47:18
  Speaker 3: a lot of people have experience. And that I think
• 47:20
  Speaker 3: is why I wanted to share my story. You know,
• 47:23
  Speaker 3: I'm granted, I do not think I'm a celebrity on
• 47:25
  Speaker 3: any level. I am on the local news. Most of
• 47:28
  Speaker 3: my life is extremely normal, very very boring. I tell
• 47:32
  Speaker 3: people the weather, and I love what I do. But
• 47:35
  Speaker 3: I knew that I had just enough of a platform
• 47:38
  Speaker 3: to hopefully have people in the Justice Department, And I
• 47:42
  Speaker 3: didn't really have a lot of hope that it would
• 47:44
  Speaker 3: change my case, but maybe going forward they would take
• 47:46
  Speaker 3: another woman's case or another person's case seriously in this situation,
• 47:50
  Speaker 3: and I am still working with the DA's office. They
• 47:53
  Speaker 3: have told me that they are investigating and that they
• 47:56
  Speaker 3: are not ruling out additional charges. So I am still hopeful,
• 48:00
  Speaker 3: hopeful that if I can give them all the inflot
• 48:02
  Speaker 3: that they need, which I know is there, that this
• 48:05
  Speaker 3: would hopefully be an easy case for them. And whatnot.
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: How has this changed the way that you interact with
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: people who innocently approach you at the store or wherever
• 48:18
  Speaker 2: in town and just want to meet you.
• 48:21
  Speaker 3: It hasn't changed that, to be honest. If I'm in
• 48:23
  Speaker 3: a safe public space and people are kind, it hasn't
• 48:27
  Speaker 3: changed that. I'm still very grateful, and in fact, a
• 48:28
  Speaker 3: lot of people have come up and said, I am
• 48:30
  Speaker 3: so sorry that has happened to you. We love watching
• 48:32
  Speaker 3: you every morning, We're so grateful. We hope that this
• 48:34
  Speaker 3: doesn't make you want to leave your job and whatnot.
• 48:37
  Speaker 3: So I would say that it hasn't in that way.
• 48:40
  Speaker 3: It has just made me much more hyper aware of
• 48:44
  Speaker 3: if something's in my gut telling me, Okay, this person's
• 48:46
  Speaker 3: a little bit off, I need to get out of
• 48:48
  Speaker 3: that situation immediately, or I need to let someone know
• 48:51
  Speaker 3: or get help and whatnot. And then my threshold for
• 48:55
  Speaker 3: just tolerance within my Instagram, DMS or you know, whatever
• 48:58
  Speaker 3: it is. We're not even letting things get beyond like
• 49:01
  Speaker 3: that's a little bit creepy. You're done. That's weird. You're done.
• 49:04
  Speaker 3: You're not even having access to me where I let
• 49:06
  Speaker 3: it get to the point at least I hope.
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: I really appreciate you making time for us. I know
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: you've been very busy since your story blew up, and
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: I am just really grateful that you made the time.
• 49:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah. No, and I definitely took a step back from
• 49:22
  Speaker 3: media in a few days after because it was very
• 49:24
  Speaker 3: overwhelming and I just knew that this was going to
• 49:27
  Speaker 3: be a safe conversation, and so I just appreciate you guys,
• 49:30
  Speaker 3: And yeah, I'm hoping for some from normalcy again soon.
• 49:36
  Speaker 3: I'm really looking forward to that, so, you know, and
• 49:39
  Speaker 3: I hope that other women out there, if this has
• 49:40
  Speaker 3: happened to you, and that you don't feel as alone
• 49:42
  Speaker 3: it's awful and it's extremely isolating in a very lonely way.
• 49:46
  Speaker 3: So just know that you're not alone.
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we hope that things become normal for you too,
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: and that you don't have to deal with this in
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: the future. And thank you so much for coming on
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: our podcast and trusting to tell your story. Means a lot.
• 50:02
  Speaker 3: Yeah, well, thank you for advocating for other women and
• 50:04
  Speaker 3: and other people within the criminal justice system that they're
• 50:08
  Speaker 3: fighting for what they hopefully deserve and can get some justice.
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: This is our last episode of twenty twenty five, and
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: that's kind of hard to believe.
• 50:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I can't rerum my head around it. I'm so
• 50:21
  Speaker 2: glad that we were able to speak with Kylie because
• 50:24
  Speaker 2: I think her story and her reasons for telling it
• 50:27
  Speaker 2: really speak to the mission of the show.
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: I couldn't agree more.
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: The fact that Kylie is using her platform to speak
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: about this and has already made national news, I think
• 50:38
  Speaker 2: really speaks to the power of storytelling. And you know,
• 50:42
  Speaker 2: you and I have talked about this so many times,
• 50:44
  Speaker 2: but especially in developing this show, is true crime can
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: mean such a range of things, and we wanted to
• 50:51
  Speaker 2: have this like mission driven platform for these stories and Yeah.
• 50:57
  Speaker 2: Kylie's mission was to in part, to help people take
• 51:02
  Speaker 2: this seriously.
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, which is awesome. I mean, the fact that she
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: has this platform as a public person just helps get
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: the word out about her experience. And there's so many
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: people that this is happening to who don't have a
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: public platform to be able to speak about it. So
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: I love that Kylie's doing that, you know. I was
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: looking at the website Stop stocking us dot com, which
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: is a nonprofit organization, and they have some statistics on
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: their website. One of them, which is pretty shocking, says
• 51:34
  Speaker 1: about one in six women and one in seventeen men
• 51:37
  Speaker 1: have experienced stocking in their lifetimes. That is a surprising
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: number when you think about it. Like I think also
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: at least in maybe public perception in the media, it's like, well,
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: what is stoking? You know, And I think part of
• 51:53
  Speaker 1: the problem here is there seem to be a lot
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: of varied opinions, but in my opinion, after listening to
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: Kylie's story and other people who have been victims of stalking,
• 52:05
  Speaker 1: stalking is taking away someone's sense of safety, and whether
• 52:08
  Speaker 1: that's unwanted messages or showing up at their home, maybe
• 52:12
  Speaker 1: there is still an escalation that has to be quantified legally,
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: but you're taking away someone's sense of personal safety and
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: that's huge. Yeah, I mean, what is stocking is such
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: a good question. There's like how it is defined by
• 52:26
  Speaker 1: the law, and then like what it feels like if
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: you are experiencing being stocked? Right, Yeah, And it's one
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: of those things that I feel like is sort of
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: hard to define. And Kylie talked about this a little
• 52:38
  Speaker 1: bit in the interview, and there's a Denver Post article
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: that she mentioned, and in that article they talk about
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: the definition of stalking being in Colorado specifically when a
• 52:49
  Speaker 1: person knowingly and repeatedly follows, approaches, contacts, or communicates with
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: another person in a way that causes that person serious
• 52:59
  Speaker 1: emotional stress. So that's a pretty good definition, yeah, But
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: she also talked about how, like the words like repeatedly
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: is kind of vague and then how do you define that?
• 53:10
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: And it's this complicated thing that we see a lot
• 53:14
  Speaker 1: of trying to put someone's experience into a law that
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: hopefully will protect victims, but it still doesn't even come
• 53:21
  Speaker 1: close to describing what that actually is like for a victim,
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: Like that feeling you're talking about of someone encroaching on
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: your personal space and freedom. Honestly is what it feels like.
• 53:33
  Speaker 1: It would feel so invasive to me.
• 53:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and obviously men can also be victims of stalking,
• 53:41
  Speaker 2: but from my perspective as a woman, and I think
• 53:45
  Speaker 2: probably a lot of people have shared this experience, you know,
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: growing up in the media, there's sort of this common
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: trope of like a guy that's really persistent, he's chasing you,
• 53:56
  Speaker 2: and that ends up being the guy, and it's like
• 54:00
  Speaker 2: situation differs from that this was never someone she had
• 54:04
  Speaker 2: any relationship with at all. But I think that sometimes
• 54:08
  Speaker 2: that can sort of twist people's way of thinking about it,
• 54:11
  Speaker 2: and you have to wonder, like to what degree is
• 54:13
  Speaker 2: that infiltrating, how seriously this is taken or not taken. Yeah,
• 54:17
  Speaker 2: it's such a problematic, I know, trope or outlook on
• 54:21
  Speaker 2: what's appropriate behavior, right, this idea that, oh, this guy
• 54:25
  Speaker 2: likes you, he's mean to you, even it's like, no,
• 54:29
  Speaker 2: we got to evolve past that, right, Like he must
• 54:31
  Speaker 2: be flirting with me. I feel uncomfortable. Yeah, yeah, if
• 54:36
  Speaker 2: you feel uncomfortable, I know, it's not a good sign.
• 54:39
  Speaker 2: When I first moved to La actually i went on
• 54:42
  Speaker 2: maybe like two dates with this person who he was nice.
• 54:47
  Speaker 2: It wasn't a match. I told him that and all
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: was well, and then he asked me out again, and
• 54:54
  Speaker 2: I don't remember what I said, but I remember that
• 54:58
  Speaker 2: I said no, and then he started emailing me, and
• 55:02
  Speaker 2: there was some time that passed in between, maybe it
• 55:04
  Speaker 2: was like a couple of weeks, and I would kind
• 55:07
  Speaker 2: of respond and say, oh, you know, no, thank you,
• 55:11
  Speaker 2: and then he would email again, and they were kind
• 55:13
  Speaker 2: of joking, like I know, you're dying to hear from me,
• 55:16
  Speaker 2: And honestly, I think that in his case, like overall,
• 55:21
  Speaker 2: was well intentioned, but at a certain point I still
• 55:24
  Speaker 2: remember having to tell him, like I don't want to
• 55:26
  Speaker 2: hear from you. Like now I feel kind of weird
• 55:29
  Speaker 2: and I feel bad even saying this and I shouldn't,
• 55:32
  Speaker 2: but like, I don't want.
• 55:33
  Speaker 3: To hear from you.
• 55:34
  Speaker 2: And to his credit, I never heard from him again.
• 55:36
  Speaker 1: Well that's good.
• 55:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but like I remember, he was, you know, someone
• 55:41
  Speaker 2: who was like highly educated, and he was great in person.
• 55:45
  Speaker 2: It was very kind, but still didn't seem to get that. Uh,
• 55:49
  Speaker 2: if someone says they don't want to go out with you,
• 55:51
  Speaker 2: maybe stop asking.
• 55:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that should be a pretty clear thing. Yeah,
• 55:57
  Speaker 1: you know, one thing that came to mind that we
• 56:00
  Speaker 1: didn't talk about in the episode, but that later I
• 56:04
  Speaker 1: thought of that there's a tiny little sliver of crossover
• 56:08
  Speaker 1: with this story and Sweet Bobby.
• 56:11
  Speaker 3: Yep.
• 56:12
  Speaker 1: I kept thinking about Sweet Bobby, which I'm sure a
• 56:15
  Speaker 1: lot of people are familiar with, and I've watched the
• 56:17
  Speaker 1: great Netflix documentary Sweet Bobby. It was about this woman, Kirat,
• 56:20
  Speaker 1: who's a British radio presenter, so similarly also had like
• 56:24
  Speaker 1: this you know, public persona, and she believed for like
• 56:29
  Speaker 1: nine years or something that she was in an online
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: distance relationship with this guy named Bobby who was a
• 56:34
  Speaker 1: real person that she kind of knew or like they
• 56:38
  Speaker 1: had similar friends online or something, you know, spoiler alert,
• 56:42
  Speaker 1: wasn't Bobby, but she was chatting with this person she
• 56:44
  Speaker 1: thought was Bobby, messaging all this stuff, and even saw
• 56:49
  Speaker 1: Bobby in person a couple of times.
• 56:51
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that one moment when she sees him at
• 56:55
  Speaker 2: the club and he.
• 56:56
  Speaker 1: Sort of like doesn't recognize her, but then she's like,
• 56:59
  Speaker 1: well that was weird. But then when she's typing and
• 57:03
  Speaker 1: texting with who she thinks is Bobby. Later, of course
• 57:05
  Speaker 1: he has all the right excuses to make her think
• 57:09
  Speaker 1: that this is normal, that he wouldn't recognize her or
• 57:12
  Speaker 1: acknowledge her in public, right, And we have no idea
• 57:15
  Speaker 1: if that's actually what is going on with the guy
• 57:19
  Speaker 1: that has been stalking Kylie, Like it could be a
• 57:21
  Speaker 1: situation where he just made all of this up in
• 57:23
  Speaker 1: his head, Like, we have no idea, but the fact
• 57:26
  Speaker 1: that there was a text message back and forth that
• 57:29
  Speaker 1: he showed her that he's texting somebody, you know, he
• 57:32
  Speaker 1: could have fabricated that as well, Like, we don't know,
• 57:35
  Speaker 1: but it does seem like someone has been impersonating her.
• 57:39
  Speaker 1: And I'm not trying to give this guy the benefit
• 57:41
  Speaker 1: of the doubt. He's had many chances to like snap
• 57:44
  Speaker 1: out of it, and he's been to court.
• 57:45
  Speaker 2: He's been told the truth by her.
• 57:47
  Speaker 1: He's been told the truth. But it does make me
• 57:50
  Speaker 1: think about how strong when people are, So when they're
• 57:54
  Speaker 1: scammed like that and they're convinced that they're in love
• 57:57
  Speaker 1: and they're talking to someone, like, how strong of a
• 58:00
  Speaker 1: grip that can get on you?
• 58:02
  Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I mean even in our conversation with Alex Coros,
• 58:05
  Speaker 2: who his photos had been used to scam so many people,
• 58:09
  Speaker 2: and he said, in some cases, even when he would
• 58:12
  Speaker 2: have to tell people, hey, I'm not who you are
• 58:15
  Speaker 2: being told I am. Someone's using my photos, none of
• 58:18
  Speaker 2: this communication was with me, the person that you're looking at.
• 58:21
  Speaker 2: And he said they would then start to sort of
• 58:23
  Speaker 2: fall in love with him.
• 58:25
  Speaker 1: Yes, I had forgotten about that.
• 58:27
  Speaker 2: Because they were sort of used to interacting with him,
• 58:30
  Speaker 2: looking at him, like they're sitting across from the person
• 58:33
  Speaker 2: now or on the phone with the person now that
• 58:36
  Speaker 2: they know from the pictures. Yeah, and there's something happening psychologically, Yeah,
• 58:41
  Speaker 2: even though they know the truth, it's like their brain
• 58:44
  Speaker 2: still wants them to fall in love with this person, right,
• 58:48
  Speaker 2: and kind of thinks that there's a chance that will happen.
• 58:50
  Speaker 2: But it's like no. And in this case, I mean,
• 58:54
  Speaker 2: this person had been yeah, corresponding with someone who's impersonating Kylie.
• 58:59
  Speaker 2: But then during this moment on the hike, he gets
• 59:03
  Speaker 2: his phone messages out, He's told like very clearly, Nope,
• 59:08
  Speaker 2: that's not me. I'm not interested. I think you've been scammed.
• 59:12
  Speaker 2: And at that point you have to draw a line
• 59:15
  Speaker 2: for yourself, even if your heart is broken over this.
• 59:19
  Speaker 1: Well, that's where I think about sweet Bobby and the
• 59:22
  Speaker 1: grip that scammers can have on someone, because I can
• 59:25
  Speaker 1: just imagine the scammer saying, oh, well, I just couldn't
• 59:29
  Speaker 1: acknowledge it in public, but believe me, of course, I
• 59:32
  Speaker 1: know I've been communicating with you and I love you
• 59:34
  Speaker 1: and could spend this whole thing.
• 59:35
  Speaker 2: Mm hm.
• 59:36
  Speaker 1: But you would think that going to court, like having
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: the law involved, having a restraining order filed against you,
• 59:44
  Speaker 1: would be enough to wake you up. Yeah, but maybe
• 59:47
  Speaker 1: there's some deeper hole that this person has on him.
• 59:50
  Speaker 1: I don't know, Yeah, and like, certainly not to excuse it. No,
• 59:55
  Speaker 1: it makes it even scarier because it's like, if this
• 59:59
  Speaker 1: guy true is convinced that she's secretly still in a
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 1: relationship with him, how in the world is kylie like that?
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 1: To me, it would feel like you have no power,
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 1: Like it would be so scary that. I mean, the
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 1: truth is, we never have that much power to influence
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 1: what people believe. You know, they can believe wild, untrue things.
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 1: But it's scary to think that he's he was so
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 1: convinced of this thing that's not true, and then you
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 1: have no idea what he's believing and what he's gonna do.
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 1: That's terrifying.
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean showing up at someone's home who has
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 2: no relationship with you and who had a restraining order
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 2: against you is baffling. And I don't know what's going
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 2: on in his head, but like regardless, if he has
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 2: no respect for boundaries even after the legal system is involved, Yeah,
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 2: very scary and I'm so glad Kylie's talking about.
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 1: It, one hundred percent. I agree. One of the things
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 1: she talked about this difference between what she thought he
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 1: was going to be charged with and what he ended
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 1: up being charged with. Yeah, she was hoping that he
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 1: would get charged with a felony stocking charge. Instead he
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 1: was discharged with a violation of a protective order. And
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 1: I was reading about the difference of those in Colorado,
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 1: a class one misdemeanor. There's class one in class two,
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 1: but class one violation of a protective order you can
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 1: get up to three hundred and sixty four days in jail,
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 1: so less than a year, just a day, less than
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 1: a year would be the maximum sentence, whereas if he
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 1: got a felony stocking charge, he could get up to
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 1: five years in prison. So those are really big differences.
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And Kylie said in our conversation with her, while
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 2: he was in prison briefly during his first arrest, she
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 2: felt safe, like that was the time that she felt safe.
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 2: And so you know, you're thinking about someone's loss of freedom, Okay,
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 2: this person who's been convicted of stalking, but you also
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 2: have to think of it in terms of like Kylie
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 2: being able to live her life and feel safe in
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 2: her body at her home, and if he's in prison
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 2: less than a year, that's the amount of time she
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 2: gets to feel safe.
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 1: One of the reasons that was given to her that
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 1: she communicated to us, was given to her for not
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 1: bringing a felony stocking charge was this idea that we'd
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 1: just talked about earlier, the definition of stalking in the
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 1: Colorado law right repeatedly. And there was some worry that
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 1: because he hadn't contacted her for a year and a half,
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 1: they would have a hard time proving in court that
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 1: he had repeatedly harassed and stalked her, even though he'd
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 1: done it repeatedly over the course of years. So that
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 1: was sort of like, what are we talking about here?
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 2: And to me, it's so counterintuitive because it's like, if
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 2: a year and a half can go by and that
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 2: person still has you at the forefront of their mind. Yes,
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 2: that is what I think is so scary about it
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 2: all so scary. And there was a mention in the
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 2: same article that a staff attorney at Project Safeguard, which
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 2: is a nonprofit that helps victims of domestic violence, sexual assault,
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 2: and human trafficking, talks about that it's actually not uncommon
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 2: for victims of stalking to experience long breaks or long
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 2: lolls in the stalking behavior, and so this one and
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 2: a half year period is not that shocking to her.
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 2: She sees that a lot. She also says that lole
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 2: that can be common has an effect of making the
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 2: victim begin to feel like they will never be safe
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 2: because no matter how much time passes, they worry that
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 2: this person could come back around, which is horrible. Yeah,
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 2: it's just so unfair. And one of the articles I
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 2: was reading about Kylie's case and her issue with this
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 2: is I think the prosecutor used the word judgment call
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 2: when they were speak about, well, what is he going
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 2: to be charged with? It's a judgment call, And I
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 2: think that just perfectly encapsulates the issue with the way
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 2: that we prosecute stockings it's just a judgment call, but
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 2: it's to me, I think, pretty measurable. There are ways
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 2: to see if someone is being stocked. Are they contacting
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 2: you when you've asked them not to, do you feel unsafe?
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 2: Are they ignoring their protection orders? Or the day that
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 2: they're lifted showing back up at your home. I mean,
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 2: these are like pretty cut and dry. Yeah, signs to
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 2: me totally. The fact that it's this judgment call feels
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 2: so subjective, really so subjective, like, let's hope you get
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 2: a prosecutor that cares, yeah, and believes you and understands
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 2: the violent nature of being stalked and doesn't just say, well,
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 2: what's the big deal?
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 3: You know?
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 1: And in that same article from the Denver Posts, that
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 1: the one you're talking about, but it made me think
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 1: of this what you just said. The reporter looked at
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 1: a st wide review and showed that Denver prosecutors bring
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 1: felony stocking charges less frequently than prosecutors in other counties
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 1: that have like similar population. So, you know, we don't
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 1: know all the factors that go into that, but to me,
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 1: it really speaks to that judgment call aspect of you know,
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 1: bringing charges against people.
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like, well, I guess they're being judged a
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 2: little differently there. Yeah.
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 3: Totally.
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 1: Stop Stalking Us is a five oh one c three.
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 1: It was founded by a filmmaker, performer, and stalking victim,
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 1: Lily Baldwin, after she went public with her stalking story.
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 1: Lily has been stoked by a man she doesn't know
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 1: for the past fifteen years, a harrowin experience that she
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 1: recounted in her Peabody nominated audible podcast series Stories of
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 1: the Stalked. Stop Stalking Us offers victims assistants and allows
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 1: them a place to tell their stories. If you would
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 1: like to donate to Stop Stocking Us, you can go
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 1: to their website at www dot stop stalking us dot com.
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 2: We also just wanted to say thank you so much
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 2: to everyone who listened to the Knife this year. Hannah
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 2: and I have just put so much into the show
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 2: and every time we hear from you guys, it really
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 2: means so much to us. So thank you for your support.
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much, and we will be back in
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 2: your ears in twenty twenty six. Happy New Year, Happy
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 2: New Year. If you have a story for us, we
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 2: would love to hear it. Our email is the Knife
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 2: at exactlyrightmedia dot com, or you can follow us on
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 2: Instagram at the Knife Podcast or Blue Sky at the
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 2: Knife Podcast.
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 1: This has been an Exactly Right production hosted and produced
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 1: by me Hannah Smith and.
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 2: Me paysha Ety. Our producers are Tom Bryfogel and Alexis Samarosi.
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 2: This episode was mixed by Tom Bryfogel. Our associate producer
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 2: is Christina Chamberlain. Our theme music is by Birds in
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 2: the Airport Artwork five andsa Lilac executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff,
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 2: Georgia Hardstark and Danielle Kramer