Latest / We Are For Good Podcast - The Podcast for Nonprofits / Let’s Say a Little Bit More About: Joy in Changemaking - Tulaine Montgomery

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Let’s Say a Little Bit More About: Joy in Changemaking - Tulaine Montgomery · We Are For Good Podcast - The Podcast for Nonprofits

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Hey we Are For Good fam.
• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Today, instead of our regular episode, we wanted to share an episode from a podcast hosted by Tulane Montgomery, the CEO of the venture philanthropy New Profit.
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: She's also a dear friend, a we Are For Good podcast alum, and a brilliant thought leader that we trust and follow to lead with conviction and heart.
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: In Say More with Tulane Montgomery.
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: She talks to people who are dedicated to making the world a better place, all while taking care of themselves and supporting each other.
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: If you like what you hear, please make sure to visit the link in the episode description to subscribe to Say More and listen to more of her episodes.
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: There you'll also find a link to our conversation with her from a couple of years ago on unlocking the impact of proximate leadership.
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: Okay, hope you enjoy this incredible episode.
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: Hello, good people, welcome back to Say a Little Bit More, a three-part miniseries where I'm talking about recurring themes from previous Say More episodes.
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: Part miniseries where I'm talking about recurring themes from previous Say More episodes.
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: To recap in our first episode, I talked about how changemakers can create and sustain joy while doing really difficult work.
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: For part two, I talked about the importance and complexities around building authentic coalitions across different identities.
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: That's not light work, it's not easy work, but it is essential work, and we talked in episode two about what we need to do to pull that work off.
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: If either of those topics sound interesting to you, I invite you to go back and listen to episodes one and two of Say a Little Bit More.
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: In our final episode, I want to talk about the leadership experiences of Black women, including my own.
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: Now, all of the knowable disclaimers when I talk about the leadership experiences of Black women.
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: Obviously, black women are not a monolith.
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: Our leadership experiences are not all the same, and so there's incredible range and diversity of experience and perspective that I won't get to in today's episode, but I do want to take the time to take a look at what is happening in this era where we're seeing a slowly growing number of Black women in executive C-suite roles, and what are we learning?
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: What are Black women going through?
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: What are some of the distinct assets that we bring and what are some of the distinct challenges that we face?
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: Many people have said to me, regardless of what they look like or where they come from, leadership has never been quite as complex in my lifetime as it is today.
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: So we're going to dig into that and, over the course of our Say More conversations, we have talked with Black women who are.
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: Over the course of our Say More conversations, we have talked with Black women who are at the helm of organizations and businesses and enterprises, where they are breaking through not only a historical racial barrier, but they're breaking through in terms of impact.
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: They're breaking through in terms of innovation, growth, reach and thought leadership, and there's a lot about that that we can all collectively celebrate, regardless of our identity.
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: There's also a lot that we can collectively learn about.
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: How prepared are we as a nation to build institutions, networks and belief systems that allow us to embrace the assets that Black women bring to leadership?
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: How often are we asking Black women to navigate avoidable hurdles instead of driving the impact that many of us are so poised to advance, and so we're going to explore that.
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: So let's get into it.
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: I'm now well into my role as a CEO of New Profit and man before I stepped into this seat, I can't tell you how many articles, essays and opinion pieces I was exposed to that talked about how hard it is for Black women leaders to raise capital.
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: That talked about how much the stress of leadership was disproportionately impacting health outcomes for Black women in executive roles.
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: I got a lot of stories, both anecdotal and quantitative, that told me that I was in for the ride of my life.
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: That it was going to be harder for me to be in a healthy relationship with loved ones, that I was going to be so stressed that my health would decline, that I was going to have an infinitely harder time than anyone before me had ever experienced raising capital, that I was going to face the potential mutiny of the workforce that I had the privilege of supporting through leadership.
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: Like all of the stories, it was like a love letter to the damned that's what I called it and it was interesting to me that, at the same time that I kept receiving and seeing all of these stories of struggle and failure and poor health for Black women leaders.
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: I also was in community and am in community with Black women leaders, who face a whole set of challenges absolutely, and are thriving.
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: But it's important to notice that I've had the experience of being told a story of impossibility while seeing multiple examples of powerful, dynamic, effective leadership in the body of Black women, and there's even an example of that that I can point to when I look at a recent study done out of Bryant University that spoke to research around impact and success, if you will, for CEOs of different gender and identity groups and basically women, particularly women of color, who arrive in C-suite positions, who break through the C-suite glass ceiling, that they overcome a range of systemic, structural and ideological obstacles and so that, by the time they get in those seats, that resilience, that creativity, that innovation that they had to exhibit to get that role, that it enables them to drive powerful results and outcomes for the organization that they lead.
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: There are abundant examples of Black women who are doing incredibly complex, challenging, ever-changing work, who are also figuring out how to take the best care ever of their bodies.
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: Who are also figuring out how to pour into their family and personal relationships so that they have a support network that is activated on their behalf.
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: Who are also figuring out how to explore creative outlets that give them mental and physical restoration, that they need to deliver for the significant, complex, challenging mandates that they've accepted and said yes to as leaders of organizations that have a social impact mission.
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: Those stories don't often get told in US media, but yet they are abundant if we only seek them out.
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: Before I took on the role of CEO of New Profit, there were many trusted advisors who, individually and collectively, brought just a depth and breadth of experience, and they all said a different version of the same thing.
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: They all said listen, tulane, you're certainly ready and qualified to be the CEO of an organization, but nothing fully prepares you.
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: And, as leaders, in this day and time we are leading, at a time where the nature of work is changing, it's really important for us to be reflective and to get clear on what we need to thrive.
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: I talked about this question of what do we need to thrive in one of my conversations on Say More with my good friend, dr Taquila Browning, and Taquila is the CEO of the New Teacher Project.
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: That's a nonprofit that provides resources for students, who are often underrepresented in mainstream systems to thrive.
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: She talked about what it means to be a Black woman at the helm and how scrutiny works in her day-to-day experience as a leader.
• 8:04
  Speaker 3: I have seen that, certainly.
• 8:05
  Speaker 3: You know, I have experienced that and I think to your point, part of what allows that to perpetuate is because we are the exceptions and not the rule.
• 8:16
  Speaker 3: You know it's like, okay, oh, we can't afford for you to mess up because then you'll break the piggy bank, right, you know, for those that could come behind you and no one will be given another chance.
• 8:27
  Speaker 3: So I start out responding that way too Lane, because I have to acknowledge, as a leader, as an executive, I have to acknowledge as a leader, as an executive, as a Black woman, that I had to unshackle my own mind around taking risks and making mistakes.
• 8:50
  Speaker 3: And I push on that because I too was shackled by wait a minute, I can't mess up, mess up.
• 9:00
  Speaker 3: Not only will that have repercussions for me, it will then erase or close doors for those that could come behind me.
• 9:03
  Speaker 3: I had to just abandon that mental model and say you know what I was raised to, whom much is given, much is required.
• 9:13
  Speaker 3: So if I don't take risks, if I don't push the envelope, if I don't name what I can see, what others can't see, then all I'm going to do is be even more complicit in the systems that are already here.
• 9:27
  Speaker 3: Right, there is something about those of us in these seats rejecting the caution that I feel like our lived experience tells us we have to operate within to be so safe, while also to light, holding true that, yeah, there are lots of places and ways that it shows up.
• 9:49
  Speaker 3: That's how we'll create sort of the psychological safety that executives like you and me can fully, you know, thrive and lean into.
• 9:58
  Speaker 3: But I can't wait for somebody else to do that.
• 10:01
  Speaker 3: I am having to make choices today that I think are in the best interest of the work.
• 10:08
  Speaker 3: I had to tell a colleague recently and this was not I have a wonderful board.
• 10:13
  Speaker 3: I'm so thankful, very supportive, but I had to have a member of my team, you know who was saying well, you know, staff are questioning.
• 10:21
  Speaker 3: They're saying, oh, it's cool, you know, you're being really direct, and so I heard a little bit of a like angry black woman within there.
• 10:27
  Speaker 3: It was veiled, right, but it was a little bit of that, and I'm like, oh well, that's fascinating.
• 10:32
  Speaker 3: Fascinating when, when my predecessor, Dan, salt of the earth good person, you know, yeah, and they would say oh, yeah, when Dan made decisions and you know it's more direct people they applauded.
• 10:44
  Speaker 3: They were like great, you know, dan is.
• 10:45
  Speaker 3: You know he's unapologetic and we're doing the work right.
• 10:49
  Speaker 3: But I'm like, oh, when I do that, I am now defensive.
• 10:52
  Speaker 3: I'm being defensive, right, and so I had to name that and call that, and also Tulane.
• 10:58
  Speaker 3: Just say plain speak.
• 11:00
  Speaker 3: I'm not going to ask for permission to run this organization.
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: It's a really clear summary of the dualities that I've experienced as a leader who is also a Black woman, right?
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: But yet the message that I got as a Black woman was that listen, you better not mess up.
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: It's what Tequila said like don't mess up, folks are watching you.
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: If you do, there won't be opportunities for others beyond you.
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: There won't be opportunity for folks to invest in the enterprise.
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: Like.
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: The stakes are always high for leadership, no matter your identity, and the stakes were certainly heightened for me as someone stepping into a formal leadership role, and so I really wrestle with what does it mean to be an effective leader?
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: And it comes back to to me the importance of self-reflection, because I realize that if I'm spending most of my energy as a leader making sure I don't mess up, versus really looking around the corner for what's in the best interest of the organization I'm leading, really paying attention to the needs of the folks who I'm privileged to work with at New Profit in my case, really reading and understanding what's happening in the world around me to know what adaptive solutions are going to make the biggest difference, if I'm so busy trying to make sure I don't make anybody uncomfortable, if I'm so busy trying to make sure that there's nothing that anyone could ever hold against me.
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: I'll be so hindered and crippled as a leader that it would become a self-fulfilling prophecy, right?
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: Well, she couldn't really do the job.
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: She didn't take enough risks.
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: So it's interesting to just notice the contradictions and the messages, certainly, that I got, certainly in what Tequila shared.
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: You know, on one hand, be good enough that you'll be considered a viable candidate for leadership and also don't make mistakes.
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: And the really good leaders that all of us, myself included, know and respect have made it a practice to learn from mistakes and get back to it and then do something that was better than what they did the last time they were at bat.
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: And so it's interesting to think about this pressure that all of us may feel to wear a mask, to code switch, to sort of perform the character of leader that is somehow separate from ourselves.
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: Because this plays out not just in the professional world, it plays out in mainstream media.
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: You know, if you think about the messages that we get about Black women in mainstream media, if there is a sad or scary story to tell, folks are telling it on behalf of Black women.
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: You know whether it's who's the least desired on dating sites, to who gets the most aggressive forms of cancer, to who has the worst health outcomes, regardless of levels of education, like there's just such a chronic loop of tragedy, and so I think a lot about how do I navigate that, take the pieces of those data streams that are relevant and need to be fought against and repaired, but not internalize that as my destiny.
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: I talked with Rachel Cargill about how does she hold and navigate these disparaging messages, many of which are disproportionate, many of which are false, some of which hold some statistical truth, but none of them are the fate that we seek for ourselves as Black women who are also working in leadership roles.
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: So, rachel, she's a writer, she's a philanthropist, she's also the founder of the Loveland Foundation, which is a nonprofit that offers free therapy to Black women and girls.
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: Rachel offered how we can deflect the resistance that we may encounter as Black women.
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: So let's roll the tape.
• 14:48
  Speaker 4: Of course, we will always be positioned in a way that doesn't offer a space to be our best selves, because whiteness, and white supremacy in particular, which is what is the framework for a lot of our experience in this country it can't do that.
• 15:05
  Speaker 4: It can't offer us space to be well, because if it offers us space to be well, then it will no longer have this supreme power over us that it needs to survive, and so my first suggestion is to gain the critical skills and ability to shift the lens through which you see the world, and that's not easy.
• 15:25
  Speaker 4: These spaces that do not give us the opportunity to measure up are using a measuring system that I no longer subscribe to, and so, as I move through the world, I have to be incredibly introspective.
• 15:41
  Speaker 4: But this introspective intention of saying what do I know is true about myself, what do I know that I value about myself, what do I know that my community of Black women value about me, what do I know about my intention of moving towards liberation All of these start to be the framework and the lens through which I move through the world, and that puts me in a very different position than what whiteness might offer me.
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: So what I heard and what Rachel said is that she doesn't seek affirmation and encouragement from dominant systems where the presence of Black women as leaders has been rare or maybe absent.
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: Completely right that she seeks family, she seeks community, she seeks examples in history, she seeks her own self on a regular basis as a source of confirmation, affirmation and encouragement.
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: Attain advanced and growing leadership.
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: Responsibility is that you in some way show and demonstrate your ability to take in and take on the norms and expectations of the system you're in, whether you're seeking to lead in business, an organization, a network, a movement that so much of that leadership path is about.
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: How can you show that you get what's being done, that you can replicate it, that you can accelerate it and that you can do it well?
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: And yet what we're hearing Rachel say, and what I also believe to be true in my own experience, is that what got you here won't get you there.
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: We come back to that that if you want a leadership experience that isn't extractive, that you have to seek other sources.
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: What I also loved about my conversation with Rachel and other guests on Say More is that we don't just talk about the challenges right Like we don't just swim in the deficits and fixate on what we're dissatisfied with.
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: We spent time celebrating accomplishments using appreciative inquiry, which means looking at what has enabled success and drawing that out.
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: Rachel took the initiative to create a space where she and many others can be authentic.
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: In other words, instead of trying to get a seat at somebody else's preexisting table, why not build and create your own table?
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: Why not build and create your own circles of support and affirmation?
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: Through her umbrella company, the Loveland Group, rachel launched Elizabeth Bookshop and Writing Center, and that's a space to amplify, celebrate and honor the work of writers who have often been excluded from what some call traditional academic and social spaces.
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: I'll let her tell you more about that.
• 19:16
  Speaker 4: What I love about my bookstore is that it's you know, it's a sweet we say a small footprint with a large impact, and it's been a wonderful way for me to be in relationship with my hometown as an adult, which is very different from just growing up here.
• 19:30
  Speaker 4: Yes, we've been able to be, you know, the official bookstore of Elizabeth Gilbert's Book Club and we've been able to do pop-ups at festivals all over the state and it's just been a really fun way to be creative about how we bring really good, meaningful, marginalized often marginalized literature to people who are ready to read and indulge and learn and everything you know from the very heady intellectual.
• 20:02
  Speaker 4: You know work, but we also have Black written romance novels because Black people do other things other than survive.
• 20:10
  Speaker 4: That's right.
• 20:10
  Speaker 4: I want to see the Black cowboys.
• 20:12
  Speaker 4: I want to see the Black romance novels.
• 20:14
  Speaker 4: I want to read the Black books.
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: This range of experience and perspective that Rachel talks about is so important.
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: I want to read the Black romance novels.
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: I want to hear about the Black cowboys.
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: Right, it's true, blackness as an identity is not exclusively about struggle, and that is a very simple concept.
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: But, man, so much of what we do in our day-to-day lives and society, and certainly even in the social impact space, is that we define entire groups of people almost exclusively by how we interpret their struggle and that means we have to overlook so much.
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: So there's advice I got that told me that many people wouldn't be interested in the parts of me that weren't easily identifiable and sort of corporate.
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: And I'm doing air quotes again.
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: Y'all, you can't see them, but here they are, are and even down to, like my presentation you know, physically right, like I should make sure that my hair, you know, had less coil right, which you know the irony and pain of that is just devastating.
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: The idea that I want y'all to think about, like the idea that what grows out of your scalp, which is the most inherently human and basic aspect, right In so many ways of our physical appearance, that what grows out of your scalp is, by definition, unprofessional, this idea of perfectionism.
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: If, in the United States, all of us got messages around perfectionism which I believe we all have I would say that, as a black woman, that the message around perfectionism has been doubled.
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: Like it's the old.
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: You have to be twice as good to get half as far, mantra that many of us have been told if we're of a certain age.
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: And one of the conversations that comes to mind is my conversation with the brilliant Shade Mohammed, and Shade is the chief marketing and impact officer for Time.
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: She is the inaugural chief marketing and impact officer.
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: She originated the role and she has experienced this pressure of perfectionism firsthand.
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: I'll let her tell you a little bit more about that.
• 22:36
  Speaker 5: I was telling myself that I had to like, look a certain way and be.
• 22:41
  Speaker 5: You know, I had to mirror and I also there was part of me that said I am looked at.
• 22:46
  Speaker 5: You know, I struggle in terms of how much femininity to show, right, because I felt like I want to be taken a hundred percent seriously.
• 22:54
  Speaker 5: And then it's like no, there's power in your femininity, right, like I mean, there's so much power in it, again, the right leaders and role models who I have had all along.
• 23:05
  Speaker 5: But I just wasn't listening to, right you know kind of show model that.
• 23:11
  Speaker 5: And so I think you tell yourself you see it, it's not in our head, it comes from things that we see in here, even if we're not told directly.
• 23:18
  Speaker 5: But that time I could sense that I was getting this sort of like block from folks and I'm like why are they reacting to me in that way?
• 23:31
  Speaker 5: And then I'm like because I'm not showing up like me.
• 23:37
  Speaker 5: But one of the things I'm really intentional about now, and especially in this role, is I have to show up like me.
• 23:42
  Speaker 5: I have to make you feel comfortable, especially because I know how much we've been made to feel uncomfortable.
• 23:50
  Speaker 5: I have to go out of my way to make you feel comfortable, and I want to do that because it allows you then to feel like I can share, I can be myself, can share, I can be myself, I can, because so much of what holds us back is a real sense of unworthiness or feeling like don't belong and we can't say, and it doesn't make sense and you could say the right thing, the wrong way, the wrong thing, the right way, it doesn't matter.
• 24:17
  Speaker 5: Like you share what is on your heart and so I, I think I try to lead that way because I know it allows creativity to flow, allows folks to be more open.
• 24:33
  Speaker 5: If I were acting like you know, just the picture of perfection, the closers, wouldn't happen.
• 24:39
  Speaker 5: You just wouldn't happen.
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: I was so excited when I heard Sade talk that way because she put words to something that I have been feeling and holding for a long time now.
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: I can remember the moment in my life and it was a while back where I realized that when I was trying to play the pre-written character of the successful professional Black woman, that it just didn't.
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: I just wasn't as smart, I wasn't as creative, it was harder to build authentic connections with people, my energy for the tasks at hand was so much lower, I so often and easily felt depleted.
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: But you know, I just wasn't that good at a set of things because I wasn't myself.
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: And Sade's right there is something about just being human beings right, regardless of our identity, regardless of our racial or ethnic story and origin story.
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: I mean, when I do work with New Profit and work with our entrepreneurs, when I work with investors and donors and do fundraising, you know if I enter with a sense of, you know, sort of subservience or smallness because I am in this body or because I'm not the holder of capital, in that particular moment, my ability to build connection, my ability to co-create something wonderful is diminished, if not erased completely.
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: But when I come in and my full self, with my ideas fully expressed, without any ambivalence about my perspective, and also a willingness to hear others and to learn and to make something better together than either of us can make on our own.
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: Just time and time again, it's been proven to me that that's the way to go.
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: That's the way that higher quality results come to bear, that's the way that a more enjoyable vocation can actually be experienced.
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: That's the way that I, coming back full circle to where we started this conversation that's the way that I, as a leader who also happens to be a Black woman, can actually thrive and enjoy the gig and be present in the moment and build communities and impact that last beyond me.
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: So I'm really, really happy that I have the privilege blessing I'll go ahead and use that word, you know and gift of community, which is one of the reasons why I say more is so important to me, because having the relationships is one gift, being able to engage in these kinds of conversations is another gift, and being able to share these conversations with all of you is really the greatest gift of all.
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: Thank you everyone for listening to part three of Say a Little Bit More and if you want to check out the episodes that we mentioned.
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: You'll find the links to all of those episodes in our show notes.
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: So that's a wrap on our three part miniseries.
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: But fear not, say More family, we will be back.
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: We're in the midst of preparing season three of Say More and we have some incredible guests and are bringing conversations that I know, from hearing from all of you, that you're interested in hearing and being part of.
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: So stay tuned.
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: In the meantime, please make sure to subscribe so you don't miss out on any of the episodes coming or historical, and please go back to out on any of the episodes coming or historical, and please go back to listen to any of the Say More episodes that you may have missed.
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: They're all so rich because our guests have offered so much of themselves to each and every dialogue that we've had.
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much for joining and I will catch you all in the next season of Say More.
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: Say More with Tulane Montgomery is produced by New Profit and Human Group Media.