Latest / Clear Admit MBA Admissions Podcast / Episode 505: Admissions Director Q&A with Sabah Khan of Berkeley Haas

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Episode 505: Admissions Director Q&A with Sabah Khan of Berkeley Haas · Clear Admit MBA Admissions Podcast

• 0:16
  Speaker A: Welcome to the Clear Admit MBA Admissions Podcast. I'm your host, Graham Richmond, and this special episode is part of our Admissions Director Q and A series. Today, I'm excited to welcome Saba Khan, Assistant Dean of MBA Admissions and Enrollment Management at Berkeley's Haas School of Business. Saba joined Haas in April of this year, and she brings nearly 20 years of leadership experience into her role, including a decade leading MBA enrollment strategy at Stanford's Graduate School of Business. Saba was also an operator at Stripe, where she shaped people strategy for one of the world's fastest growing and highest valued fintech companies. She holds a Master of Arts in Law and Diplomacy from the Fletcher School at Tufts University and a Bachelor of Arts in Philosophy, Politics, and Economics from the University of Pennsylvania. Welcome to the show, Saba. It's so great to have you.
• 1:06
  Speaker B: Awesome. Thank you so much for that super kind introduction, Graham. It's great to be here.
• 1:10
  Speaker C: Yeah.
• 1:10
  Speaker A: No, I'm so glad we could connect. And I also appreciate you agreeing to do this because I know, you know, you started in April, so you're, you know, still getting your sea legs. Bring it in the class right now. But I just am so thrilled that we can connect.
• 1:21
  Speaker C: And I thought even though I've given
• 1:22
  Speaker A: this intro, I would love to just hear you briefly tell us a little bit about your background and the path that led you to this current role.
• 1:29
  Speaker D: Sure.
• 1:30
  Speaker B: So I kind of joke that nobody grows up saying they want to be an admissions officer one day. I have a lot of physicians in my family. It's like a super clear career path that, you know, that's what you want to do. I think it's kind of more of a career that finds you or you find it. And for me, I started my career as a humanitarian. So I lived and worked in refugee camps across southern Africa. In grad school, when I was studying international development, totally randomly, actually, as a part of my work study package, my financial aid package, I was placed in a job in the admissions office. I just started thinking about access to higher education as this other incredibly important lever for creating social change and economic empowerment, and really just the transformative power that higher education can have, not only
• 2:26
  Speaker D: on the trajectory of an individual person's
• 2:28
  Speaker B: life, but ultimately on their community. And, you know, over the course of many, many years now, doing this as a career, you see that impact just ripple so far beyond, which is incredible. So when I graduated, I joined Stanford
• 2:44
  Speaker D: Business School as an admissions officer, and I started by launching all of our expansion into emerging markets, starting with Africa, which is where my Previous work experience had been, and I always thought it
• 2:59
  Speaker B: would be this one to two year experiment.
• 3:01
  Speaker D: And I designed and launched new scholarship programs, and they were just really successful at changing the pipelines to our class and ultimately reshaping the composition of the class. And so replicated and scaled that model globally.
• 3:18
  Speaker B: One day I had woken up and it had been 10 years. So that experiment actually turned into an incredibly gratifying career. I had read 56,000 applications at that point. And it was a time of greater transformation in our society. Covid was happening, the movement for black lives was happening. And I had the opportunity to think about what would it look like to apply the lessons I've learned about diversifying our class to a private institution. And so I moved into corporate, which I had never worked in the private sector before. And for the last five years, I've been at Stripe, and that was an incredible experience, leading diversity, equity and inclusion there. And over my time there, I just got to think about access and inclusion and diversity from a different angle. Being on that rocket ship, I mean, stripe scaled 4 or 5x in the 5 years that I was there was an incredible experience. I mean, just the talent was amazing, the company was amazing, but I missed that feeling of the personal connection that you get with the impact of admissions and really just the power that higher education has to transform people's lives. And so I wasn't planning on coming back to higher education, but a friend of mine from Stanford who actually works at Haas was kind of encouraging me to come back into higher ed. And as I went through the conversations of exploring this role, it's just an incredibly fascinating, challenging problem space right now to be in higher education. And I think enrollment and admissions is where you got to operationalize higher education strategy. And I just think we're in another turning point as a society now as we think about who are the leaders that are going to guide us through the technological transformations that we're going through with AI, the political and cultural upheavals that are happening around the world. And I actually think it's one of the defining equity questions of our time to think about who will be leading us through these changes. And that's what you get to decide in admissions?
• 5:39
  Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, makes a lot of sense. And I think a lot of what you discussed really resonates. I mean, even I think back to my days in admissions and, you know, your work, you talked about working in Africa and how that pipeline has really changed over time and really, you know, become something much more present in the U.S. i mean, obviously, current administration issues aside, which are, you know, kind of changing things a bit, but I think overall, that pipeline is, you know, a really important one. So it's great to have you back in higher ed and now at Haas. I mean, it's kind of funny. I wonder, like, what's the rivalry? You know, like, it's sort of like you've gone to the crosstown rivals, but I guess you touched on this a little bit. But I wondered, is there anything else? I mean, you know, you did talk about, like, what drew you to admissions work and what keeps you excited about it today. I guess what you're saying is, given all the transformation that we're seeing, that's what sort of gotten you, you know, that's why you still have that itch to be involved.
• 6:33
  Speaker B: I think that is absolutely a part of it. And I would add to that that I really actually have concern for our industry. I think we're in a period of product market fit erosion. You see the level of demand for management education really plummeting, to be completely honest with you. GMAT test taking is down 50% post pandemic. And I think we're in this broader reckoning of what is a management education really for today. And when you think about getting to shape and design how we deliver the transformation that people can experience in an MBA program to become more critical thinkers, to become ethical judgment shapers, to become more creative, more innovative and really create and lead differently and not just have change happen to them, to me, I feel like it's just really important that we think about the strategy of how we create. That value proposition for higher education has changed with the commoditization of technical knowledge and business knowledge. And so what is the differentiator of higher education, I think is just a really, really important and critical thing to consider for us as leaders in higher ed. And that's kind of what drew me
• 8:04
  Speaker D: back as being in the room where
• 8:06
  Speaker B: those decisions are made.
• 8:08
  Speaker C: Okay. Yeah. And we talk a lot on this podcast generally about, you know, the changes that we're seeing in the industry, but also, you know, this idea that skills like you just said, like judgment, critical thinking, are becoming way more important with the advent of AI. And I, you know, I kind of feel like if business schools, you know, take the right steps, they're so well
• 8:29
  Speaker A: positioned to train this next generation of leaders.
• 8:32
  Speaker C: And it's kind of interesting because I know there was an era where everyone was saying, oh, go study data science or computer programming, but now that some of these tools can do A lot of that stuff. It's more about having the judgment and the critical thinking skills and kind of knowing how to teach yourself. And business school can really deliver that. So I understand why you're saying this is a great time to kind of be in the room, which is a great way to think of it.
• 8:53
  Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. I would add one more thing to the list, which is just underestimated, in my opinion, which is the level of emotional fluency that you need to. To be able to work with folks on the impacts of this technological transformation and also just how much of a differentiator that's going to become. There's just no substitute for the relational aspect of how work gets done. And being able to invest in that capability, I just think is going to be imperative to success in the future workplace.
• 9:38
  Speaker C: Yeah. And I know we may get into this later, but I've seen clearmit's done a number of pieces recently about students at HAAS doing all kinds of really cool AI workshops and kind of trainings. And there's a lot happening on your campus, which makes sense, obviously. But I guess before we go that way, going in that direction, I did want to ask you, you've been in a couple of admissions offices now, and I'm wondering, what's one misconception that applicants tend to have about admissions officers or even just the admissions process?
• 10:08
  Speaker B: Yeah, I would say the biggest misconception, I think, is that it's a much more generous process than people assume. It's real human beings holistically evaluating your candidacy. And I think holistic evaluation can feel a little jargony. It really means that we're trying to understand all the components of who you are and how they come together to tell a bigger picture. And that's not a formula. It's not us looking for reasons to deny you. It's really us trying to understand what you'll contribute to our class, what you'll gain from the experience while you're here. And so I think there are a lot of misconceptions around wanting to strategize, to present your best self in the application. And of course, the way that you present your best self is actually by being vulnerable enough to share who you are in a way that isn't packaged or marketed, because that vulnerability is actually a leadership skill. And so what we are trying to look for is the folks that understand the power of authenticity, because that's actually going to enable you to be successful in the classroom, in the boardroom. And so if you don't have that same skill to really show us who
• 11:30
  Speaker D: you are, then we actually don't think
• 11:32
  Speaker B: that translates very well to other outcomes in the program.
• 11:37
  Speaker D: And so I would just say that's kind of the biggest thing that I see in terms of pitfalls, too. I guess it's a related idea concept.
• 11:46
  Speaker C: Yeah. And I think they're probably. Yeah, there's like, a subset of candidates out there who picture you guys in an office just looking at, like, a test score and a gpa and you have some formula, and if they don't meet some threshold, they just get tossed aside. And what I love about MBA admissions is that that's not at all the case, that you're looking at everything and that people can, you know, they can share their outside activities, they can share their, you know, their plans, their future plans, their interest in contributing to the program. There's so many pieces, and so that's what makes this kind of an interesting industry in the first place. It would be really boring if there was, like, a formula and you just kind of, you know, processing applications. Like it was a quantitative, you know, kind of exercise.
• 12:26
  Speaker B: Absolutely. It's such an art and science.
• 12:30
  Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. So now, because you've had this experience of being in the industry for a little while, how is your thinking about admissions changed over the years?
• 12:37
  Speaker A: I mean, you talked earlier a little
• 12:39
  Speaker C: bit about the pipeline maybe shifting over time and some. Some areas of Africa coming online. But what. What are you seeing now? I mean, in terms of, you know, you're just finishing bringing in a class this year. When you think back to maybe when
• 12:51
  Speaker A: you first started in the industry, like, what's sort of different to you now?
• 12:54
  Speaker B: I think one of the things that I am really pleased to see is the dynamic around excellence and exclusivity and how I don't think one kind of necessitates the other. And I feel like the broader conversation around inclusion and access has become. Become not only top of mind, but more structurally embedded in how we think about the purpose of higher education. And I think that's been a really positive shift. I think. You know, I would say another misconception about admissions is that it really is a bunch of gatekeepers. And I actually think a lot of us are in this career because we want to open doors. And so I think that shift is something that I have seen incrementally increase over the years. Just in the broader conversation about what we do as admissions officers.
• 14:04
  Speaker D: I would say that's one.
• 14:06
  Speaker B: I think it really does behoove us to think about in what ways will higher education be disrupted. I think thinking about non traditional learners, for example, or other ways of delivering credentials, like how are we integrating AI into our curriculum and what we equip people to be able to do in the workplace, I think those are changes that are at the forefront of what's happening now when we look to change going forward.
• 14:38
  Speaker C: Okay. Yeah. And it's funny, you know, as I was thinking about this myself, I'm recalling I had a conversation with the CEO of the Forte foundation, and she shared some interesting stats about the representation of women over the last 20 or so years and how that's changed. Changed. That was one that came to mind. And then I could not agree more, though, that the, you know, this issue around AI integration. One thing I will say is I feel like business schools have historically been really good at changing the curriculum when it's. When it's needed, and probably more so than, like law school or medical school. You know, they just seem to be more nimble about kind of integrating new things. But. All right, so let's getting back to kind of the application process. What is something that you think applicants tend to worry about far more than they should?
• 15:20
  Speaker B: You know, I think this relates to what we talked about earlier, but just kind of creating a narrative arc of some kind. I think, you know, don't over index on your job title or a certain test score or a certain organization that you work for. I think if you truly follow the things that. That reflect your strengths, that reflect your passions, that reflect how you want to make a difference in the world and where you find meaning from making that impact, I think that's where the substance, I think, of the application really comes through. And I think that clarity really distinguishes candidates from kind of the marketing exercise of creating an application package. And so I think people tend to, I don't know, maybe underestimate when you've read 56,000 applications, like, we can tell
• 16:27
  Speaker D: who has, you know, done the level
• 16:30
  Speaker B: of reflection and been really honest about
• 16:35
  Speaker D: their experiences in the application really quickly. And, you know, it's not always a
• 16:42
  Speaker B: ding to be inauthentic.
• 16:44
  Speaker D: Like, you could be a quantitative superstar and be relatively inauthentic and still gain admission. Like, that's what holistic admissions means.
• 16:52
  Speaker C: Right.
• 16:52
  Speaker B: But I just think, you know, worrying about, you know, what you think admissions officers want to hear, I just think is like the surefire way to kind of get on the wrong path.
• 17:03
  Speaker C: Yeah. And we hear people talking a lot about, you know, on the web and, you know, talking about, oh, I don't have the right title or this or that. And I always encourage people that, you know, this is why it's a holistic process and people go deeper than just the surface level. What's the name of the company and your title. So yeah, and I guess, you know, I know this is maybe a hard question because you've been in your current role at Haas for not too long but you know, you just mentioned you've read 56,000 applications in your career to a top business school and Haas and Stanford are both very top business schools. So I'm just kind of wondering when you think back to all these apps that you've read and students that have
• 17:39
  Speaker A: been admitted over the years, are there
• 17:41
  Speaker C: any qualities that tend to distinguish those who make the most of the experience? So not, not qualities that distinguish those who get in from those who don't,
• 17:50
  Speaker A: but the ones who when they're in business school really seem to be thriving.
• 17:54
  Speaker B: I really see students who have a really good balance of active curiosity along with clarity and focus around the purpose that drives them in their MBA and their post MBA pursuits. So you know, an MBA is a huge cornucopia of opportunity. If you treat it like an all you can eat buffet, you're probably under optimizing on this huge investment that you're making. It's two years out of your life. If you're in the full time program at Haas, we also have part time programs and an executive mba. But if you're in the full time program then you know it's a really big investment and you want to maximize your return on that. And I think if you come in with, you know, write down your goals, minimize it to three of them. And of course that's a point in time exercise. Knowing what I know now, this is what I want to get out of business school. And you should absolutely remain open to all of the new things that you
• 18:58
  Speaker D: never even considered or things that don't even exist you right now in terms
• 19:01
  Speaker B: of opportunities and balance that laboratory type environment with some dedication and intention to
• 19:14
  Speaker D: really how you're going to maximize your experience. For some people it's going to be leaning into relationships and clubs. For others it's going to be faculty and the academic experience. For others it's going to be career opportunities and networking. But like figure out what your top things are and try to remind yourself, you know, at any given half hour spot in the day there's 10 things you could be doing. Pick the few that you think are going to keep propelling you in the direction you're trying to go, because being rudderless is a bit of an underinvestment in the experience. And it would be a shame to come out and graduate and say, like, oh, had I done the MBA a year later or two years later, like, I would have treated it differently because I would have had more clarity.
• 19:56
  Speaker B: So I think, you know, come in with the beginner's mindset, be open, show up, and also be kind of prepared for what it is you want to get out of the experience, too.
• 20:11
  Speaker C: I love the all you can eat buffet analogy. It's like, you got to be strategic, otherwise you might fill up on bread and then you can't take advantage of everything.
• 20:21
  Speaker B: Totally.
• 20:22
  Speaker C: And we have a series on our website where we talk with alumni from leading MBA programs who graduated several years ago. And we've, we talk to them about their work and what they're doing now, but we also ask them questions about what they wish they'd done or, you know, advice they have for people on the MBA experience. And it's so funny because they often give what feels like contradictory advice. They'll say, stay open minded because this one class that I took that I never, you know, has nothing to do with my career, ended up being so, you know, insightful, or this club I joined that I had no intention of ever getting involved with was fantastic. But then on the other hand, you know, sometimes they'll say, but, you know, be really focused. You got to know what you want and get, you know, don't lose track of that. Don't get swept up in whatever everyone else is doing. So. But I think there is, there is a way to kind of balance that.
• 21:08
  Speaker A: Right.
• 21:08
  Speaker C: And I think you've just described it, you know, really perfectly.
• 21:11
  Speaker B: Yeah, that's interesting. You know, there's that other saying or quote, I can't remember exactly how it goes, but it's like luck is when opportunity meets preparation. And so you're going to have opportunity after opportunity after opportunity, but you're not going to catch that lucky moment if you don't meet all of those opportunity moments with the preparation. And so that's kind of the balance.
• 21:37
  Speaker C: Okay. Yeah, perfect. So this is another potentially tough one for you, although I know that, you know, you have some, as you said, one of your friends works at Haas and, you know, kind of talk to you about the role before you came in. But I wonder, you know, what do you, what do you think Haas alumni have to say about the program? And, you know, if, I don't know if you've had the chance yet in, you know, in your time there to connect with many alums. But, you know, what do your colleagues tell you that's so special about the place?
• 22:04
  Speaker B: Yeah, it is just such an incredibly tight knit community. We are by design smaller than other business schools. Our class is typically under 300 students, more in the 260 to 280 range. And so students are really connected to each other and that carries with them through their alumni experience. And one of the things, I obviously went on a listening tour when I started, and what just so clearly and uniformly stood out about what people love and what differentiates Haas and makes us distinct is what we call our defining leadership principles. And these were created by the former Dean Haas, Rich Lyons, and he's now the Chancellor at Berkeley, so leads the entire UC Berkeley institution. And he actually co led this effort with our current dean, Jenny Chapman, who is one of the world's foremost experts in culture, organizational culture. And so those defining leadership principles are something we hear time and again from our students and our alumni, which includes thinking beyond yourself. How do you think about not only the impact this education will have on you, but what is the ripple effect out beyond yourself all the time question the status quo. I think that is really just the heart of what it means to be at Berkeley and to be at us. It's just a part of the ethos and the mindset. Students always. So how are you learning all the time, challenging yourself, Confidence without attitude. And I love that one. A lot of people say that's their favorite one because it's how are you leading with humility? You know, we all want to make decisions based on evidence and data and analysis. And we also, you know, in talking about the relational aspect of what an MBA really delivers, I also think having a foundation of empathy, inclusion, trust, and how that comes together to really drive collaboration, I think is reflected in this idea of confidence without attitude. And so those are kind of the things that just come up time and again from all of our constituents, including alumni.
• 24:32
  Speaker C: Okay, that makes a lot of sense. I guess one thing I wanted to ask you, and I know this is tricky, but what's a stereotype about Berkeley or Haas specifically that you want to debunk?
• 24:45
  Speaker B: This might be, I was going to say a broader MBA misconception, but I actually don't. I think specific to Haas is that we want to move business and society forward. And I think being, you know, a public institution that is immensely connected, connected to or intimately connected to this idea of sustainability, social impact, and how we think about business from the lens of Also doing good. I think sometimes there can be an over indexing on the doing good. And of course, that is a primary value and driver of why we want to make an impact in business. And it remains a quantitatively rigorous program
• 25:43
  Speaker D: in which you will continue to learn
• 25:45
  Speaker B: and be exposed to the business fundamentals of accounting and finance and economics and statistics. And so it's that balance where I think sometimes it's seen as softer on rigor or too idealistic.
• 26:02
  Speaker D: And I think, you know, that can be a stereotype. So I would just debunk that.
• 26:08
  Speaker C: Okay, yeah, that makes sense. I mean, when you look at the career placement report, you see people going into all the same fields that peer schools are going into. It's not like everyone is going off to do sustainability or specific, that sort of stereotypical thing that you're talking about. So one more question for you and then we have kind of some lightning round questions for fun. But this one, I think is going to be really easy for you to talk about. And this is, what role does your city, region or broader community play in the student experience at haas?
• 26:40
  Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, this one is, I would just say, you know, the Bay Area is not a backdrop for us. It is almost like the Bay Area is a part of your curriculum, like the level of exposure that you get to. I mean, over 60% of venture capital funding flows through the Bay Area. The next highest region is New York at 13%. It just, you are steps away from all of the enterprises and new technologies that are actually building the future that we're all going to be living in. It's a very like, you know, it's almost like the future is now you're at the forefront of it. And I just think, you know, Haas public mission also gives us a particular proximity to that. And yeah, I would just say, like, it's honestly just the ethos of who we are being in the Bay Area ecosystem, just that drive to always think about things differently. Even if you go into a really traditional industry or career, you still will have the mindset of question the status quo.
• 27:52
  Speaker D: And so I think, you know, it
• 27:54
  Speaker B: also doesn't hurt that we're, you know, 75 and sunny almost every day. You're in like one of the most beautiful places in the world. That whole cliche, you can ski and swim in the same day.
• 28:05
  Speaker D: I mean, it's like there actually have been studies that that kind of climate and environment is part of what fosters the level of innovation that happens here. Like, people are just happier and that creates a lot of Connection.
• 28:17
  Speaker B: And so you really, really can't be
• 28:20
  Speaker D: in a more epicentered place for what's happening next than UC Berkeley.
• 28:26
  Speaker C: Yeah. And we recently did an article about how the business schools in the Bay Area are really benefiting from all that venture capital that's flown. That. That's kind of, you know, flying into AI specific ventures. And so, yeah, it seems to be having, you know, not only does the area and region impact what you're saying, the kind of, you know, student experience, but it seems like it's impacting outcomes, too, in a positive way in terms of, you know, candidates getting jobs. All right, so those were the kind of serious questions that I had for you. But we always do this fun thing we call our lightning round. So what I wanted to ask you, we're just. I'll just. We'll do them kind of rapid fire, and there's no right. No right answers here. So the first one is just coffee or tea?
• 29:10
  Speaker B: Coffee.
• 29:11
  Speaker C: Okay. Beach or mountains? This is tough given that you just talked about being in the ocean and also skiing in the same day, but
• 29:19
  Speaker B: I will go with mountains. Fun fact. I lived in the Santa Cruz mountains for many years, so I would go. Mountains. Yeah.
• 29:26
  Speaker C: Awesome.
• 29:27
  Speaker A: Are you a morning person or a night owl?
• 29:29
  Speaker B: There's a hilarious meme where it says nothing makes you a morning person like having toddlers. It's like loving being a runner because you're being chased by a bear. That's how being a morning person is when you have kids.
• 29:45
  Speaker C: If you have toddler.
• 29:46
  Speaker B: Yeah.
• 29:47
  Speaker C: All right, so I take it that means you have kids and you're getting up very early.
• 29:51
  Speaker B: Not by choice. But I'm forced into being a morning person now. Yes.
• 29:55
  Speaker A: All right. There you go.
• 29:56
  Speaker C: What about a pet peeve that you have?
• 29:58
  Speaker B: Oh, my gosh. Slow walkers.
• 30:03
  Speaker C: I absolutely get that. I live in. In Paris. And yeah, people have a certain, you know, a speedy pace. And if there's a sl. And it just sort of disrupts the whole system.
• 30:12
  Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I have things to do. Yeah.
• 30:16
  Speaker A: Yeah.
• 30:17
  Speaker B: All right.
• 30:18
  Speaker C: What about a favorite comfort food?
• 30:20
  Speaker B: That would be pasta for me.
• 30:23
  Speaker C: Okay. What about a guilty pleasure? And you can't say pasta.
• 30:26
  Speaker B: Oh, no. Okay.
• 30:28
  Speaker C: It doesn't have to be food. It could be just something you like doing that's like a guilty pleasure.
• 30:31
  Speaker B: Doom scrolling.
• 30:33
  Speaker C: Okay, what is one thing that applicants should stop doing immediately?
• 30:39
  Speaker B: Don't take your GMAT for the seventh time.
• 30:42
  Speaker C: Okay, Good one. And what is the best thing that you've read, watched, or listened to? Recently?
• 30:49
  Speaker B: I went to the rosalia concert like 10 days ago.
• 30:54
  Speaker A: Oh, wow.
• 30:54
  Speaker B: And it was just otherworldly. It was incredible.
• 30:59
  Speaker C: Okay, excellent.
• 31:00
  Speaker B: Yeah, amazing.
• 31:01
  Speaker C: We didn't talk about it, but obviously the Bay Area has a great music scene, so good spot there too, for seeing shows. So those are the Lightning round questions. Saba, I really appreciate you making time to do this. I know as you mentioned, you know, you just kind of joined recently at Haas and so, you know, I know it's been a kind of a whirlwind for you and just appreciate you finding a little bit of time to hang out and do this. It's just really incredibly helpful. And I'm sure everyone tuned in has learned a lot about Haas and the Bay Area too.
• 31:29
  Speaker B: Thank you so much, Graham. It was a huge pleasure to be here. It was wonderful meeting you and I would just encourage those of you that are thinking about it. Our round one application deadline for the full time program is coming up in September. Would love to learn more about you and you can always reach out to our office if you have questions. We're real human beings. We would love to hear from you.
• 31:50
  Speaker C: All right, terrific. So that's going to be a wrap on this episode of the show. Thanks for tuning into the Clear Admit MBA admissions podcast and please remember to subscribe, rate and review the show wherever you listen. We'll be back with more of these admissions Director Q&As all summer long, as well as our regular weekly episodes that air on Mondays.
• 32:09
  Speaker B: It.