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Why We Need to Stop Sugarcoating Difficult Experiences | Beyond Our Stories with Livi North · Beyond our Stories

• Ali Schmahl: An apartment lined up and I chickened out the night of and like begged for forgiveness. My guidance and coaching was going to be lived experience. And so I wanted to embody that lived experience. And I cannot think of any word that I said more during my divorce than fuck. It it sucks. This is an awful process. It is terrible. And you know what? Swear. Tell people exactly how it is. Every person has a story. Some stories make us laugh, some challenge us. Some stay with us long after the story is over. But sometimes the most meaningful part of a story isn't the ending. It's the conversation that begins afterwards. Welcome to Beyond Our Stories. I am Ali. I'm Stephanie. And today we are joined by someone whose work has helped countless parents navigate one of the most difficult chapters of their lives. Livy North is a coach, educator, and the host of the podcast Unfuck Your Co-Parenting, where she helps people rebuild their lives after toxic relationships, especially when children are involved. We have met Livy through our movie I Love You My Narcissist and already had a great talk on her podcast, where we're talking more in detail about the movie. Livy, thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here. For the listeners and the viewers who ⁓ don't know you, please tell us who are you? That's the million, million dollar question. I feel like going through a high-conflict divorce, ⁓ especially with somebody, you know, narcissistic tendencies, ⁓ all of the things, the question of who you are is becomes such a complex, just I don't know, tangle of answers, but I mean, essentially I am a a woman, a mother who left a decade-long marriage at with very young children and turned that experience into what I do today. I actually met my my current partner while going through the divorce process. ⁓ he had a very similar situation and we work together to help each other learn how to set boundaries and kind of unearth our traumas. And he was actually the one who kind of was like, you know, you you should coach. He's like, you should you should do this for a living. Like you're passionate about it. This is obviously your calling. You're incredibly, I mean, very effective. So that's I mean, kind of kind of how I ended up being a coach. And can you tell us more about like the discussions that you had with him about that? Like why was he suggesting that you should start coaching and not he could have done it himself as well. So why is he suggesting you so I was actually a US diplomat ⁓ in the State Department. I loved my job, but ⁓ had been going through this horrific divorce and like so many people who are trying to leave narcissistic or toxic relationships. It is a multi year process. And so I was dealing with all the court things and due to ⁓ a change in policy, also kind of felt that same energy at work. And I kind of felt like everyone in my life and everyone who controlled everything was a narcissist, kind of is is more or less where I was at, where I was like, I'm coming home and and filing against a narcissist and I'm coming to work and it's like the same energy. So when the opportunity arose, I took it. And I was really struggling with what I wanted to do. And I wanted to kind of go into PR a little bit. And so I started the unfuck TikTok page just to kind of like fill my resume. Like this was not something I expected to to take off at all. It was truly just like a let's let me show that I can build build something that's outside of government. And the response that I got, and Leo and I would sit on my porch and I would just read him these comments. And I was like, ⁓ my God, like there, this is this is humongous. There are so many people going through the exact same thing. And so, you know, when we were kind of having our conversations about, you know, like, do I take these, you know, government contracting jobs? What do I, what do I do? He was really the one who kind of said, like, Well, you know you've coached me. I was like, what are you talking about? And so it really was like from that point on, I, you know, really came up with kind of like the playbook. Here's my coaching plan. These are kind of my my tenants and my strategy. So it it really just kind of all came together. And I feel like there's so many parts of life that might not seem like they make make sense, but if you're able to take the the learning opportunity from it, like having your com career completely, totally sidelined and see it as an opportunity to redefine yourself, I think that that is truly, you know, a an opportunity for you to just grow as as a person. And I'm just thrilled that I was able to do that. So w how did you decide ⁓ t to name your I think TikTok was it originally? Mm-hmm. How did you wh why did you name it unfuck your co parenting? So When I was going through the battle of trying to figure out whether or not I should get divorced, I really did rely on on social media, YouTube. It was just constantly questioning, well, am I the problem? Is it really that bad? And I I mean, all the people I found, I mean Dr. Romini especially, ⁓ really helped me through. But I felt like so much of it was very not a clinical word, but very therapist-y. Like, You know, and and that is not what I am. And I wanted to be very clear that my my guidance and coaching was going to be lived experience. And so I wanted to embody that lived experience. And I cannot think of any word that I said more during my divorce than fuck. and it it really was just this way of kind of like giving permission to. It it sucks. This is an awful process. It is terrible. And you know what? Swear. Tell people exactly how it is. Like there is no sugar coating. It is raw, kind of in your face. And also I think it helps find the right audience. If I d I definitely swear, I swear like a sailor. and if that's not your brand, that's not your flavor, like I'm not for you. So like s let's save us both some time. ⁓ but it really did resonate with a lot of people. I mean, besides the fact it's relatively memorable. But I think a lot of people liked that fact and resonate with the this this is raw and it's awful. And n we should not be wasting time trying to not swear, right? Save our energy for the bigger battles. What I like about that too is that ⁓ When you're in this situation where you have experienced ⁓ a narcissistic manipulation, for example, in the relationships, your co-parenting, you are already in a space where you're careful and reflective a lot, like what am I doing wrong? So like then getting a space where, ⁓ you can swear, you can be real, I think that's really helpful. absolutely. And yeah, because we have all been told you you're not supposed to be this way, then and hide yourself. Hide your feelings, stuff them down, be the perfect person. Be this image of what I want you to be. So yeah, fuck it. Be who you want. Be ugly. Be be messy and cry. And this is a safe space. And I end almost all of my videos with like some sort of like, we are in this together, because we are. And that's very important because many people miss that that post-separation abuse is even more dangerous than being in the relationship. And people who have a who have a child ⁓ with with the with the to the toxic partner, it's even harder and worse for them, actually. Yes. And that when I talk to to people or clients who are very early in the divorce process, I almost hesitate trying to explain how bad it's going to get because I don't want to scare them back into the relationship. And I want to be incredibly clear when I say Post-separation abuse can 100% be worse than than some of the things that you had in the marriage. However, the freedom you have living outside of that narcissistic or toxic system is a million and ten times worth it. So I want no one to ever take away from from saying, you know, post-separation abuse is awful. I'll just stay. That is not the message. But it it is true that. We kind of think that divorce, and and I mean, this almost has to be the way you think in order to get you through the process, is this light at the end of the tunnel. And it in a way it is, because one of the things that actually signing on that dotted line does is it creates rules. And that's that is really where we need to start. There are concrete rules. Now we know who has the kid when. There's a lot less ⁓ flexibility for this kind of personality to try and basically fuck with your life by using the the vagueness of the rules. I talked to you like, well no, like parenting plans are generally not written in a way for toxic people who are trying to weaponize the system. ⁓ so a lot of time there's a lot of vagueness written in. ⁓ there's oftentimes a lot of opportunities for that person to be able to kind of essentially get into your space or into your role while you are on your own parenting time. And also there's a loss of control when that divorce decree is signed. When they they lose the ability to control you in one way, generally what we see happen with myself, my clients is there's this like increase in anger. And then they are like dra desperately reaching out for additional ways to regain that control. And what is I think the most helpful for people is when they start to see it as a pattern. And instead of, you know, breathing that sigh of relief after the divorce and going like, ⁓ my gosh, but all of a sudden now they're like blowing up my phone up and and calling me all of the time and and not expecting it, taking the deep breath, going like, okay, I won something here. I can expect them to kind of blow up in another area and I am, I am ready for it. And what are freedoms and opportunities that you gained after leaving? Because I think that's better to focus on what question specifically. And and it it's so funny because I remember ⁓ because I struggled a lot with the decision. You know, I had two very young kids. ⁓ I actually started Googling divorce while I was pregnant with my second s ⁓ my second. And I'd really just been struggling with this for a very, very long time. And So by the time I had gotten to convincing him that he wanted a divorce, I wanted a divorce, we both were on this path, I had just this like it was all of that doubt and that self-doubt just disappeared. And I swear I was like glowing. And like the couple of weeks after we decided to get divorced, ⁓ I was just there was this immense happiness that I had inside of me where I chose myself. For like the first time in over a decade, probably ever. And it was something about the act of choosing myself that I I kind of like, I'm like, ⁓ shit, this is what self-love feels like. I I always thought that this was a dumb, you know, hoity toity, like fancy thing that nobody actually really felt. I was like, ⁓ my, like this, this is it. And it was, I mean, and I don't want to say like overnight as if it were like this magical thing, but it felt like overnight I gained more confidence. I knew what I wanted. And then there were these small shifts that I started to notice. I'd been told my entire life I had a bad memory and I just accepted it. I started noticing my memory got better. I would remember names and and like little details that people would tell me. And as a diplomat, it is really shitty to have a bad memory and not remember those small things about people. And I would just be in a conversation, be like, ⁓ how, you know, how's Tommy's like soccer or whatever? And I was like, I can't believe I remembered the the the kids' name, what they were playing, how old they were, and realizing that kind of coming out of this fog, and it still happens to this day, where I notice changes in myself. And that is not to say that change is like it is a linear process. There's ⁓ a lot of back and forth. And this is why I recommend anyone working with me works with a therapist too. Because for coaching, I'm working on the logistical things. Like let's put into, you know, here's a boundary that we can put into place. Let me look at your parenting plan and kind of identify where some of these weaknesses are so you can build this in before it's finalized. But digging into like those deep, dark dramas and what this actually did to you as a person and how do you heal from that? That that is a lifelong journey that both Fi Leo and I are still going through today. What you what what you said is that it was challenging to live and it was challenging to rebuild your your life afterwards. So what was what was what was harder? So if someone is listening or or or viewing this podcast, so ⁓ so for for them to un to to understand, was it harder to leave that relationship or was it harder to rebuild your life ⁓ afterwards? It it's kind of like comparing like is it harder to run a marathon or is it harder to play chess against a a world champion, right? Like they are different skill sets. Because I feel like deciding To leave the marriage is so much, it's you're you're fighting against yourself. And you're fighting against that self-doubt, the gaslighting, all of it. I mean, I was my own worst enemy in that. And, you know, I mean, I I had tried to leave before I'd gotten pregnant with my first, and I chickened out. I had an I had an apartment lined up. ⁓ and I chickened out the night of and like. begged for forgiveness and like did all of these things like I'm so sorry. I can't believe I was unfaithful enough to like think about leaving you. And so I really was my own worst enemy. And that was 100% self-work that I needed to do. Plus watching a hundred Dr. Romini videos that like, no, you are not the narcissist. It really is the other person. And fighting culture and fighting the things that you've constantly been told. And so that again, personal fight. The re Building your life, it is hard, but it is also a labor of of love. And you are constantly building towards something amazing and something better. And, you know, so even on the hardest days, you know, I I think about the fact that like my children are gonna grow up not seeing an incredibly toxic and unhealthy relationship and thinking that that's normal. They're gonna, you know, they're gonna grow up. They get to see me and Leo, which I I have never I had no idea that healthy communication could look like this. I was like, we we have su we like argue all the time, but it doesn't sound like an argument because we just exchange ideas and then like talk about a vulnerabilities and come to a solution and a compromise. Like they're gonna grow up thinking like that. Okay, that's that's that's very interesting. Yeah. ⁓ for the listeners and viewers. Who are asking how these people met and how they came together on this podcast? We made a feature movie with the title I Love You, My Narcissist. ⁓ And we got to know Livy because of this movie. She watched a movie and we talked, we had some conversation, and we did also a a podcast ⁓ on Unfact Your Co-Parenting. Definitely you ⁓ it's worth it to to listen to that and watch it. ⁓ Livy, you wrote me an a a very interesting email after you watched the movie actually. You watched the movie twice, right? So you're right. So I watched it the first time I watched it alone by myself and Leo was really interested in seeing it because I had talked talked to him all about it. ⁓ and so we watched it again together. And f first of all you gotta be in a good you gotta be in the right space to watch it because it is definitely triggering. But the the thing that I thought was the most interesting watching it that second time is the the character Emily, who I I identified the most with. she, you know, I didn't realize how much she had changed throughout that entire movie. So she starts out this bubbly, effervescent, like fun, you know, person who's like really excited about life and and seems confident and has friends and a network. And I didn't even realize the first time I was watching it how much she had changed until I went back and watched it the second time and saw like her opening scene. I was like, ⁓ my God, she was like dancing around the room. I went through like I went through that. I did it. And I didn't even, I couldn't even see it while it was happening. So no wonder it is so hard for people to explain what this kind of a mental and emotional abuse does to people. Because as someone who who lived it, I didn't even recognize it as it was happening in front of me in a movie. How am I supposed to be able to explain to somebody who doesn't really see that? In real life. And that's something that I think your the movie does such an amazing job of is bringing the the audience along where you you can understand why the changes are happening, but they're so subtle. And it's so it's just like these tiny, minute little cuts that don't the one doesn't matter, two doesn't matter. Years and years of this has like destroys a person. That is so good to hear for us 'cause we were working a lot on the script and really wanted to get it right and get es especially the subtle changes we really wanted to get. So like sometimes ⁓ Ali works later at night and ⁓ so I I usually go to bed sooner. ⁓ and sometimes I was so involved with the with the writing process that I ⁓ g got out of bed again and went to Ali and said, ⁓ but I had this idea, maybe we can incorporate that so that everybody that also ⁓ people that experienced it, but also people that didn't experience it ⁓ have a better understanding of how subtle this can actually happen. Well and I think though what I loved about it is like both of the characters and I don't want to spoiler, but ⁓ both of the the characters do end up in incredibly serious situations that I mean caused by by their narcissistic partners or the abuse that they went through. And where where I mean for Michael's character, it it's just like he this this man is so trapped. Like so incredibly trapped. And, you know, where kind of where he ends up is such a a dramatic kind of separation from I'm sure what people who probably knew Michael at the beginning of the movie would have thought Michael where he would have gone, right? Because he also he was excited and like had ideas and and all these things. I just think you guys did such a wonderful job. I'm like pontificating off on on how great the ending was while trying not to say what the endings were. Did you and your partner have a different experience of watching it or did something different stand out for you guys? Probably. We we definitely did. He Michael was actually the I mean, I think character he really like identified with. But it was really interesting to me. And and to be fair, like at this point, like I had done so much research on on narcissism and and everything. He kept quite he's like, I wonder who do you think the narcissist is? I was like, for one, I've watched this before, but like you don't know yet. Like you haven't figured that out. Like you haven't, it was interesting that. I felt like I picked up on the red flags like right away. ⁓ and he really had a harder time kind of like identifying who it was, which I think honestly is really great because that is real life. ⁓ but he, you know, I mean, I think the the big thing was like what triggered us and like what we had a hard time watching. And so there was just a lot of ⁓ similarities. But I also love that you guys worked in the family dynamic because, you know, I I think, and I never want to give like an excuse to why somebody turns out to be narcissistic or toxic in some way, but it understanding the why helps you understand who they are and why they're like that, even though it doesn't excuse the behavior. And kind of giving that background to Sarah. So you were like, ⁓ shit, like you came from the system. You were created by a a much larger system. And Michael ends up kind of caught in that larger system. I'm I'm very curious to know if someone is if someone watches I Love of My Narcissist tonight, what do you hope they feel after watching it? I think it depends on on who they are. Like if it is a a survivor or somebody who has been through it, I would hope they would feel seen and validated and like they are a lot of not alone. Like I'm not the only person who's been through this. And so many people have been through this that they made a movie about it. Like that, that would be for for a survivor what I'd want them to take away. But where I think that this actually has really good value would be for the supporters of the survivor, or maybe for the people in, you know, that support the person but don't really understand the narcissism. And I would want them to take away an understanding because we fight against so much misunderstanding of what narcissism is and what co-parenting with these people looks like. And because what narcissism is isn't understood. It is undercut. It is undervalued. And so people will brush it off if you say, you know, my ex is a narcissist, they're like, yeah, everybody says that in court. And y you're just overreacting and you're not a psychologist, so you can't. Whether or not you want to call it narcissism, if it walks like a duck and talk quacks like a duck, it's it's a duck. These are patterns. They do like and and I want people to start understanding even if they don't have a personal connection or they haven't realized they have a personal connection. Cause I think there's a lot of us who do have narcissistic people in our lives that just don't realize it. That's also the problem because There is a huge misconception in the society ⁓ of what is narcissism or who is a narcissist. Because ⁓ during the research of the of the movie, we asked many people, ⁓ what is narcissism for you? Well, what do you what do you think who is a narcissist or so then they mainly they say, Yeah, hey, someone who wants to be the center of attention is a narcissist. And I say, J that's it? For me, for example, before we ⁓ start doing research for the movie. I didn't even know what narcissism is. And while we were doing research, every now and then on I I w I went to a Steph and and told her, Hey, the this part of the story that we are developing and writing right now is actually my real life story. I experienced that a lot. And now when I think that every day I'm I'm I'm remembering all my situation in my life with my family with my friends with my ex ex relationships and everything, I say, ⁓ my God, my whole life I had to deal with narcissistic people and I didn't even know. And that's that's that's ⁓ that's a problem that this society at the moment has because they are not aware, they are they they don't know what that is, what are the red flags, what are the patterns, what are the signs, and they miss that. And then they Just find out only after they are stuck. We also interviewed many people for the movie, and they said, Yeah, I didn't even know what my relationship is. And after I had no other option ⁓ except staying, I just did some research in the internet or so, and I found out ⁓ that's narcissism. I'm dealing with a narcissistic partner, so that's ⁓ the problem. Yeah, and then also ⁓ understanding that this is a pattern is really important because this was something that I didn't fully understand before we we were doing the research and talking to our experts. I wasn't really aware of that. And ⁓ or I couldn't name it that way. And I think for people that haven't experienced narcissism or haven't identified narcissism in narcissism in their surroundings. ⁓ it's really helpful to understand somebody that has gone through it. For example, if I came to another person with my story and I think if they understand, ⁓ this is a pattern and the situation that I'm describing right now isn't just this one situation, but it's actually a situation building on top of another, on top of another, then I think the way they can relate to this situation is very different. Well I think one of the important things, kind of like going back to like what the definition of a narcissist is, which again, I'm not gonna nothing clinical here. But I think that we when we talk a so much about the behaviors, ⁓ and kind of like it was incredibly useful to have that checklist. And I remember I I did a I did a video ⁓ that was like the seven things you can expect from divorcing a narcissist. And it was like everybody was like, every single one. every single thing they absolutely did. And it's like, cause it is a pattern. But also understanding the why I think does give us a little bit of power in it's it's everything is from this deep, deep sense of shame. Like they're all of their reactions are are really like they might come off as incredibly, you know, Happy and charismatic and and but it is, it is all like some crazy childhood wound that they they are not able to let go of. And that radical acceptance of this is who this person is, and there is no changing that, I think is also incredibly key, not only in learning how to leave, but also learning how to co-parent and how to deal with this person on an ongoing basis. Amazing. So ⁓ before we continue, I'd like to take a moment to tell the listeners and the viewers who ⁓ we are ⁓ and what this podcast is. ⁓ Beyond Our Stories is an original podcast ⁓ by Aleph Cine Stream, a streaming platform for impactful, meaningful stories and movies. We created Aleph Cine Stream because we believe powerful stories deserve to be discovered. Every movie on Aleph Cineus Stream is personally created because it offers something meaningful, whether it's new perspective, an emotional journey, or a story that stays with you long after it ends. And if this conversation that we're having today with Livy is interesting for you and you wanna know more about I Love You by Narcissist, we would recommend for you to watch it. It follows the real experiences of survivors. And ⁓ also highlights experts' voices. Like it's a movie about understanding, healing, and hopefully also finding your way back to yourself. You can watch I Love With My Narcissist now exclusively on Aleph Sinner's stream. ⁓ we add the link into the d in the description so you can can find it ⁓ easily. And there is also a very, very exclusive ⁓ special ⁓ fifteen percent offer from Livy. So you can you can use that ⁓ offer ⁓ from the description, just click the link and the promotion code is already applied. So now we talked about we talked about the the narcissistic abuse and the narcissistic and the the toxic relationships and and how it feels and how how how they look like ⁓ being in them and just after leaving them. Many people might ask how is the the emotional reality of of ⁓ this process from from leaving the the partner to to finding yourself and the healing process. And s and some people also feel guilty of protecting themselves. Because for example for me after I realized that I'm in a I I was my whole life in a narcissistic relationship I just broke my whole contact with with that person or those persons. No contact ever. I get er I get sometimes messages or so I just sometimes I don't even read them because I don't want to ⁓ get stressed or get mad or whatever. And sometimes before I open the message and read them, I say I tell myself, yeah, okay. Whatever the message is, just ignore it, just read the message if everything is fine. And the hardest part for me is that sometimes I feel guilty. Did you ever feel guilty of protecting yourself? ⁓ a hundred percent. Like, I mean, there as I mean, anyone who has been in any sort of system in which narcissism and narcissistic abuse is present, you learn to question yourself all of the time. Self-doubt is so ingrained in you. Guilt is so ingrained that there, yes, you are gonna feel you are gonna feel guilty and doubt yourself. And that is part of the healing process is recognizing, okay, I'm doubting myself. Why am I doubting myself? I feel very guilty. Why am I feeling guilty? And really working through through those questions every single time you feel them. Because I'm and and again, also too, sometimes just turning off turning off the switch to society, because you know, there's a So many people out there that talk about how it you shouldn't leave because you have children. And I'm vehemently against that. Like, no, I am leaving for my kids. So fuck off. They are now going to grow up in a in a healthier situation and and being able to turn off and just know those people are wrong. I don't need to listen to those voices. I am doing what's best for my kids and I have that faith. And so but I mean, yeah, absolutely. I'm guilt. My children right now are in thirty days in Brazil. I miss them like crazy. And my poor fucking son does not do well on phone calls because he'll miss me. And d he actually called earlier today. I was really excited because I got a I got a phone call from them, which I was not expecting. And he he said he's like, Mommy, I wish you were here. Gil I mean like guilt. Like I wish I was there too. Like you you, you know, pull out all the like jump in a pool for me, bud, have some fun. I'm miss you, we're gonna see each other when you get back. But yeah, I mean, of course I wish I was there. And I miss this family and and sure, the fact that every, you know, it wasn't exactly the way that I had pictured it is sure, we can call it my fault. But refocusing on why I am doing that. And the benefit for my children, the benefit for me. And and I'm struggling because again, I think once you realize what narcissism is, you realize, ⁓ shit, there's a lot of narcissism around me. And my my mother ended up going no contact with her mom. And she's actually the reason. This is the reason I discovered narcissism, was because I was trying to understand why she'd stop talking to grandma. And that's kind of how I stumbled upon this. And I was like, this checklist is like, ⁓ shit, that's who I'm married to. You know, so it there's a lot of guilt around how when somebody does go no contact, how that affects the rest of the family. While it's like you want to support the survivor, you also don't want to like it it it is it's so challenging. And I don't think that there is a right answer that you can apply across the board. I think you you do really have to kind of have these very specific. questions ⁓ that, you know, is this a relationship that's worth having? Do I need to fully mourn this relationship? Which I actually I actually worked with a client who came to me because of her ex-husband, but like realized her mom was a narcissist and like was going no contact. And like the process of mourning a relationship, especially a mother child relationship, which I don't care how old you are. You want your parent to love you unconditionally. And realizing your parent is a narcissist means you're realizing your parent does not love you unconditionally. And you have to accept love is conditional. And then you have to ask yourself the question, can I radically accept that my relationship with this person will be conditional? And it or do I need to just cut that person off because it's too painful for me? So it also sounds like in your coaching you give a lot of clarity when somebody's trying to regain their trust in themselves and answering these questions that are even more complicated when you have made when you have doubted yourself for such a long time and have to figure it out for yourself again. ⁓ absolutely. And so one of the the things that I offer is it I call it like the full package where it's like, we'll do the weekly coaching sessions. But the big selling point of this is like you can email me any time of day and I will get I will answer. And when I get a new client, it's a lot of emails. Like, cause I do, and I ask them like anytime you want to respond, like you you send the email to me. We're gonna talk about whether or not this is the right response. But there's so many questions. Should I be doing this? Is this wrong? You know, and one of the most amazing things to see in in my clients is by the time we get to the end of the 12, 14, however long many weeks, I'm not getting emails from them anymore. Like they're just doing it on their own. And for them to have forgotten to tell me things. ⁓ like, ⁓ did I not tell you about that? And because they just handled it. And and so much of it is, they just needed a little bit of a push, a little bit of like, yes, I am doing the right thing in validation because they have been invalidated for who knows how many years of their life. And what would you say to a person that is in a relationship for a long time? Like you said, you were also in a relationship with a narcissist for a decade. And they feel like, ⁓ but this is too late for me to make a decision for myself and to leave. That it is never too late. ⁓ my grandmother's ninety one and she's still dating, okay? Like it's never too late. But I I think it really is where For somebody who hasn't fully accepted that they want to leave, my biggest advice to anyone supporting a person in that is to let let them know I believe you. I believe that what you're going through is not okay. I believe that if you leave, you will be okay. But I am here to support you no matter what you decide. I will forever be so incredibly grateful for my cousin. She listened to me bitch and moan and complain about how terrible my marriage was. She would tell me to leave all the time and then she'd be nice to him at Thanksgiving and make my life easy. Like she was unconditional love. She showed me what unconditional love was. She's gonna, she tells me what she thinks. She made me feel like I was right, but she was gonna love me no matter what I chose. And That is the kind of support that somebody needs because they might chicken out and go back. You constantly are trying to get back that person they were at the beginning of the relationship, or that, you know, they were nice to me a couple days ago. And maybe if I just try a little harder and it's this, you're you're in this cycle and you're so addicted to it that just because your friend tells you to get a divorce doesn't mean you're gonna leave. ⁓ and so having those people that you know will be with you no matter what is so incredibly important because They might go back and it might take them a a time or two. And you know what? If they decide never to leave, they still have you. And that's, I mean, not ideal for them, but I mean, that's you know, they they need people in their lives no matter what they choose. This thought also made me a little bit emotional because ⁓ this unc this the way you describe this unconditional love, I think would be nice if we could all offer that to our people. Yeah. I have this core value of being accepted for who I am. And there are so few people in my life at that point that truly accepted me for who I was. And like that, that is what I then decided I was gonna be for other people. You are still ⁓ you you must be in contact with your ex partner, right? Because of the children. I believe that many people are asking, okay, the decayed Toxic relationship and after that living and starting a new life and a new new healthy relationship and so on, but it's still in the contact with the ex-partner and with a toxic partner. So how how does it work when you communicate with them? So so first off, it is a process. And so at first, yes. even after I had implemented the parallel parenting, which I would say the number one thing to do ⁓ if you're looking for a concrete. thing to do is really implement a system for messaging where you use one platform, preferably like a a co-parenting app, everything is in that one platform. Don't let them email you and text you and do all these other things. One message per topic, right? So there's not this like long email where you're talking about all the different topics, one message per topic, because then once that message, once that topic is done, you can put that away. And only communicate when necessary. ⁓ and again, this kind of goes to the the difference of co-parenting versus parallel parenting. Do not email what they had for dinner and the new thing that they liked. And, you know, like a lot of and I did this because I wanted this information back. I mean, I was the primary caregiver. I miss my kids so much. It was torture to be away from them. And so I would give the information that I wanted back. Right. I would send pictures and I got jack shit back. Like, you know. and when I did get things back, it would be weaponized, or you gave them lollipops, and now they need to go to the dentist. And now all of a sudden I'm getting like this long email about why I'm a bad mom. And no, one message per topic, only things that are truly necessary. Where's the drop off going to be? I would like to switch days with you. But other than that, like as little as possible and then recognizing when they're trying to bait you into an argument. And a lot of this is learning like it does not matter. When he e emailed me about, you know, me being a bad mom because I let our son dress up with his sister or eat a lolly or none of it matters. Like and just being able to truly have faith in myself, a little bit of faith in the court system. If you were to bring this, no judge is gonna care. They're they're gonna be pissed that they're being brought there for this topic. And truly just I am a good mom. I'm doing the best for my son and my daughter. And either not responding or my canned phrase is the children are well cared for during my time. And ended at that. And not engaging. And it is so hard. Because sometimes you got a really good comeback, or you've got a really good way of justifying yourself, or you want to because it's fucking infuriating. And you can't. And you gotta just nope and move on. And that's just in writing. Then there is the actual times where you have to see this person. You have to understand your ex and your relationship with them. There's a lot more variety in this one, I think, because for For me, if I am alone with my ex, I used to have panic attacks. I used to be so nervous. It's really doctor's appointments were the only times because he insists on being at the doctor's appointment. And it was, I would be so incredibly stressed. He hates me. He knows I know exactly who he is. There was a power dynamic switch where I his face looks different. Like he, he. no longer has that mask on. It is it is bizarre because his face legitimately looks different. And it is like he is no longer trying. And you can see the hatred like when we are together. Thank God our kids don't see it. Cause I'm able to, you know, but it it feels it feels like I now, I'm the more comfortable one. You know, he's sitting there on his phone and he'll like angrily like send me a couple of messages or something like while we're in the doctor's appointment together. And And it's it's empowering and also kind of like sad because it doesn't need to be like this. I don't care. If you turned around tomorrow and decided to be a decent human being, I I would have no problem. But I know for a lot of people, that flip where all of a sudden you feel more empowered than the narcissistic person does. Sometimes it will never happen. Sometimes it takes a ton of time. We are ⁓ slowly moving towards the ⁓ ending of this episode. And ⁓ thank you for the listeners ⁓ to ⁓ hearing and to the viewers for watching us ⁓ until now. If you could go back and talk to yourself on the hardest day in your life, what would you say? This this is such a hard question because I feel like I was so stubborn as a young person that I could have gone back and told myself anything and I would have been like, yeah, whatever, and not listen. I am almost grateful for all everything that I have gone through because I don't think I would be the person I am today if I had not gone through my my marriage with my ex. Leo and I say it all the time like if we had met our like if We were each other's first marriage, I don't think we would, I don't think we would have gotten together. Vehemently did not like nice guys and only apparently liked assholes. He he actually probably, I mean, he's just been a ridiculously nice human being his entire life. He actually would have been fine. But ⁓ I really feel like I had to go through this because I did not know what self-love was. I did not know what self-advocacy was. And if I had gone back and told myself, Faith in yourself. You know what's right, or stop or even stop stop dating assholes, Jen. Like just stop. ⁓ I I think somebody could have told me anything and I don't think I would have listened. Like I I had been part of a narcissistic system for so long that I don't think I would have been able to really have understood without truly living through it. That being said, if I could go back. The day after I got pregnant with my son and say, yeah, get a divorce now. And let me give you some tips on putting some money away and some things to avoid during the divorce, 100%. I would have prepped myself a little bit, which on the divorce thing, if anyone is thinking about divorcing someone who is a narcissist, have a plan, figure out your priorities and put money away. I don't care if you feel bad about it, whatever, put it away in a separate bank account now. Like So yeah, that's Yeah. ⁓ We have always two questions that we ask our guests at the ending of the episode. ⁓ the first question is if someone listening or viewing this episode today and they are struggling, what would you say to that person directly? The only person who knows the right answer is you and you need to have faith in yourself. Very beautiful. Amazing. And the last question that I love the answer to most is what is one a story, a movie or even a personal experience that you will never forget and change how you see people? ⁓ man. You know, I I actually think so. It would be becoming a a step parent. Actually, ⁓ as I mentioned to you guys before we start recording, my ⁓ my future stepsons, ⁓ we are engaged, which is very exciting. ⁓ but they're nine and thirteen year old boys, and they have what I would probably call a toxic mom relationship, and really looking at their life. through their eyes. And I will always say to people that the most important thing you can give your children or the most valuable thing is to give them the belief that they have a healthy parent for as long as possible. They're gonna find out. You don't want them finding out when they're four. Like you just don't. Like as long as you can kind of give them that faith and that belief and that feeling of safety, the better. And being able to see that in an adolescent and and see the importance of his mom to him. And that has just really for me changed. How I see narcissistic parents because it's so easy to look at them and be angry and hate and like be angry at the things that they're doing to their kids. But when I look at it and look at those boys and say, what do you need right now? You need reassurance. You need safety. You don't, you need you need me not to be angry at your mom. and That is, I mean, like legit when I see her and we have interactions, I actually am perfect like I perfectly happy to see her. I know how to get out of those situations very quickly and keep boundaries. But I then I am doing that for the child. Like I am doing that like because I want them to feel safe. And that has been something that has really changed me. And even with my own ex has helped me say, like, there's daddy. And then there's this asshole that files shit against me in court. Daddy is a different person. And like when you talk to me about daddy, that is a different person than the person I'm dealing with after you guys go to bed writing motions. And and I think that bifurcation in my mind was truly from from those boys. ⁓ Livy, thank you so much for ⁓ sharing your story and your experience with us today. it was it was really amazing. It was very interesting. Conversations like this remind us that healing isn't about forgetting the past. It's about finding the strengths to move forward and creating a better future for ourselves and for those we love. If today's conversation spoke to you, then we would love for you to follow up, leave a review, and share this episode with someone who might need to hear it. And if you like to continue exploring stories of resilience, then you can also watch I Love You My Narcissist along with other ⁓ remarkable independent movies that we have on the stream platform all of seen a stream, you can visit the website acminus stream dot com. Thank you for spending your time with us. Every story begins on the screen, but it continues within us. Thank you for joining us and we'll see you next time on Beyond Our Stories. A new episode of Beyond Our Stories comes out every Thursday. Subscribe to be part of the next conversation and if this one stayed with you, we'd love to hear your thoughts in the comments.