Latest / Martyr's Row / Ep. 40 - Does The Christian Diet Include Dragon?

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Ep. 40 - Does The Christian Diet Include Dragon? · Martyr's Row

0:00
This week on Martyrs Row, how does Cookie Monster
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stay so thin? He never actually swallows the
0:05
cookies. Are you hungry for knowledge? Leviathan,
0:09
it's what's for dinner. Three, two, one. St.
0:30
Alban, the first martyr of Britain, was in the
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days of the Roman persecutions a pagan soldier
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dwelling at Verilamium. When a Christian priest
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fleeing his pursuers sought shelter with him,
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Alban received him into his house, and beholding
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the consistency of his prayers, he was moved
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to faith and believed in Christ. When the soldiers
0:55
came to seize the priest, Alban, clothing himself
0:58
in the man's garments, gave himself up in his
1:02
stead, brought before the judge and commanded
1:05
to offer sacrifice to the gods of Rome. He confessed
1:09
boldly that he was now a Christian and feared
1:12
not their threats, for this he was condemned
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to die. As he was led forth to death upon the
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hill of execution, the waters of the river parted
1:25
to make way for him. And the executioner, seeing
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his courage, cast down his sword and declared
1:32
himself a Christian also. Another was appointed
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who struck off Alban's head, and the first executioner,
1:40
refusing the deed, was himself slain and fell
1:45
at Alban's side. Thus, Alban who sheltered a
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stranger for Christ's sake, became the first
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to shed his blood for his name in the land of
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Britain. Anno Domini, 304. I saw, you okay? I
2:14
dozed out for a second. I couldn't tell if you
2:16
were talking or not. I was like, my brain was
2:20
going somewhere else and I was like, yep, let's
2:22
bring it back. Let's do it. And I said it out
2:24
loud. You ever mean to say something and it just...
2:30
Didn't come out. Yeah, or you didn't mean to
2:32
say something in it That's what just happened
2:36
Oops Meant for that to be my inside voice So,
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um, you know how like pastors just end up with
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clips on the internet And then other people like
2:54
get over in the bottom corner and then they're
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like Hey, watch this. I bet you never thought
2:58
about this before and it's someone else and then
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there's like another guy that's on top of it
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That's like hey watch this guy that talked about
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this thing that and there's like so many faces
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like floating around the oh, yeah It's like everyone's
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just using the original content. Yes. It's wild
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Anyways, I saw one of these the other day and
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it's this church this pastor out of Atlanta if
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I mentioned who it was You probably know who
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it is because he's like all over the place right
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now. Just like really an extremely charismatic
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pastor, but He said something and it was clearly
3:39
like a passing concept not the main topic of
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his message Okay, but it was just this part of
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it that was clipped and I thought huh Interesting
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idea fun more for maybe a podcast idea on Martyrs
3:59
Row between Paul and I versus it being like in
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the middle of this guy's message. Because let
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me just, okay, so let me just break it down and
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kind of loosely the way that he did. So I'm not
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gonna give you the punch line, I'm gonna walk
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us there. So in Genesis chapter 1, it says that
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the earth was without form and void and darkness
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was over the face of the deep and the spirit
4:30
of God was hovering over the waters there. And
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then jump down to verse 7, and God made the expanse
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and separated the waters that were under the
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expanse from the waters that were above the expanse.
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And it was so. And God called the expanse heaven.
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and there was evening and there was morning the
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second day. All right, so God doesn't part the
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waters here. He separates and moves them into
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the heavens and then below. So there's this interesting
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like, if you've ever stopped to think about it,
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it's like, well, wait a minute. So there was
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water. and then it's separated into two different
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expanses. But it seems more vertical than horizontal
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in separation. So we're going up and down versus
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left to right. And I think a lot of times we
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think of like Pangea. Like the world is being
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separated and the earth is all of a sudden, or
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the land is starting to come up into the waters.
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And you're like, well that's not really what
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it's describing. It's not the separation of waters.
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left to right or horizontally, but rather vertically.
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So then jump over to Genesis chapter two. In
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Genesis chapter two, so one chapter later, in
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verse five it says, when no bush of the field
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was yet in the land and no small plant of the
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field had yet sprung up. For the Lord God had
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not caused it to rain on the land, and there
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was no man to work the ground. And a mist was
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going up from the land and was watering the whole
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face of the ground. And at that point, you start
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to get into the forming of man, right? So it's
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this idea that there was no rain in this iteration,
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in this moment on earth. Instead the mist and
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the dew in the morning is what actually watered
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the ground in order for there to be life Because
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don't we actually see that again echoed? With
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the flood account so that's what I'm getting
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to oh, okay, so I jumped so then you go So this
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pastor goes okay, so you have this you have this
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expanse and the expanse it and there was no rain
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because it said that the mist comes up, right,
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in Genesis chapter two. But then you ever wonder
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where the water comes from? In the flood. If
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there was no rain, how does water come from the
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sky now, where there was mist on the ground?
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And he goes on to explain that maybe if we've
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thought about it, or if we think about it a little
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bit, that when the waters are separated, vertically
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that there was a shield or a covering or a layer
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of water that surrounded the earth and protected
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the people on the earth as an atmosphere of water
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that protected us where people probably lived
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longer because environment was controlled more.
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and thus being part of the firmament. Yes. And
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this being this space. And then when the flood
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happens, where does the rain come from? First,
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the atmospheric bubble of the waters that were
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separated and that water comes down and it hits
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the earth, floods the earth. And so in other
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words, the separation that happens in Genesis
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one. That is undone and the waters come back
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together. Yeah, and in that the earth loses its
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atmosphere and people start to be affected by
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the atmosphere or the lack of atmosphere that
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was originally designed Yeah, and people start
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living less. Yeah, or not as long Yeah, and then
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there are all these effects of with the ground
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and different things like that. Yeah, and I'm
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like Okay, that's cool. Yeah I can see how we
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would unpack that in an episode of Martyrs Row.
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I'm not sure that's going to be part of a Sunday
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morning sermon. No. That's quite a topic to take
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on. Isn't that pretty wild? Yeah. But the thing
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is, I love the idea of the guy who just got into
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church. Well, that was my thought. He's like,
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I just got five kids dressed up, fed, dressed.
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They finally stopped screaming. Now they're in
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their children's church. Yeah. Now it's time
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for me to sit down and listen to the sermon.
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So check this out. You're like, what? So there
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was basically a water bed that the earth was
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in and God just popped it one day and all the
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water fell down. And now we don't live to 900
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years old anymore. Cool. OK, I guess that's how
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it works. By the way, Jesus loves you. But I
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love I love the because the clip is he's like
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and then guess where the water came from he's
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like it comes from the sky all that stuff all
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that water came down and it lands on the earth
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and now there's no atmosphere and so people don't
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live as long and it's like he's like really getting
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into like very like In such a way where I'm like
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you could be saying anything right now And I
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would be fired up. That's awesome. You know what
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I mean? It's like one of those things where it's
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like, wait, let's think about what you're saying
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right now. Because here's what would be my question.
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I love that idea and conversation. And I could
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see how. in one of our conversations in an episode
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where we could unpack that in a way where it's
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like, actually, I could see parallel themes here.
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Yeah, for sure. And I could see how these things
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could line up and I could see how this could
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be an echoing theme throughout scripture. In
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the ecosphere? In the ecosphere. But I'm also
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a little bit like, do we have any record of any
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early church fathers talking about this concept?
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Is this part of, like, Judaic tradition at all
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like is this in the Talmud somewhere because
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I feel like if that is what's happening in Genesis
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It would be for sure in the Talmud Yeah That's
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I guess that's my point. That's my takeaway from
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I see I see is like a fun idea Let's let's talk
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about it. But just to say with authority that
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that's what's happening You're taking some liberty.
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Yeah without going like there's thousands of
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years of like rabbinic tradition of people actively
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studying what happened in Genesis. And I mean,
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I haven't read anybody that has this idea. Yeah.
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But I've also, I don't think I've ever seen any
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myths in other cultures that talk about anything
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like that either. Or any stories. I don't know,
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man. Tidalik and the frog? That's true. Tidalik
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the frog? That is true. Because the frog in Australia
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swallows up all the water. He did drink all the
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water. Yeah, and they had to tickle him. They
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had to tickle him. And then he throws it all
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back up. So maybe that's what this pastor's talking
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about. That's actually exactly what he's talking
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about. Well, I encourage you to look it up. And
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I actually am going to try and search it in the
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Tao mood, like see if there's something written
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about it. That would be kind of interesting.
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Because I can see how it can unpack. and be part
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because of the vertical element of it and less
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of a horizontal dividing of waters. I feel like
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we need a scientist for this. I agree. I think
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it'd be awesome. Let's go find a scientist. And
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also, if you find any frogs, make sure you give
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them a little tickle. Tickle your frogs, people.
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They might be taking up too much water. Three,
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two, one. Shadows dance, and soft candlelight
12:44
Wings are caught, deep in every stone You walk
12:52
the path, you walked alone A march of the faithful
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Through fire and fear, the whispers of courage
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We still hear hearts unbroken. Voices rise, saints
13:19
of the road. Beneath the skies, chains may rattle.
13:29
Swords may fall, face to steady. The desert sands,
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the city's flame The witness shines, still speaks
13:50
our name The march of the faithful, the fire
13:56
and fear Whispers of courage, we still hear All
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that's unburdened Voices rise, saints of the
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road, beneath the skies Through the ancients,
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the story's green Guiding the lost, inspiring
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the trained We sing the praise Keep them here
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The light remains Forever clear The march of
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the faithful Through fire and fear Whispers of
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courage We stand here Hearts unbroken Voices
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rise, saints of the road. Deep the skies, hearts
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unbroken. Voices rise, saints of the road. I'm
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hungry, Paul. What are you hungry for? Honestly,
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anything and everything. Okay. I'm hungry for
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knowledge. I'm hungry for... I was expecting
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the first word to be food. That's why I went
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a different... That's like classic joke setup.
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And then... Tastes like books. Yeah, kind of
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volley it up to you and then take a different
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direction. Is it weird that... Maybe it's just
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me that does this. We'll find out. When I think
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of like, oh, I'm hungry for knowledge. I just
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think books. Okay. Why is that bad? No, I don't
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think it's bad. I just think it's like, it's
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interesting. You said it like it was bad. Oh,
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no, I didn't mean it to be bad. It's like you
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don't think, oh, me on the computer researching.
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It was like, no, it's like books. Yeah. I'm surprised
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you don't think thirst. Thirst for knowledge
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hunger for knowledge hunger for no thirst for
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knowledge. I think is the actual I think it might
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be but That's a phrase that's on like a weird
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poster that I bought in my library when I was
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in elementary school That had like a book open
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with like a cat in it Do you know what I'm talking
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about? No book fairs. Yeah, that's what I'm talking
16:48
about Like a book fair that you had like in your
16:53
library in your elementary school and there would
16:55
be like posters of like But I was homeschooled,
16:58
so they looked a little different. I forgot about
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that. So I didn't have the same ones you did.
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Yeah, your book fair was just going to a library.
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You had all the Got Milk posters. Yes, that's
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exactly what it was. And I had to milk the cow.
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That's awesome. No, I think... If you said like
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hungry for knowledge, it would be funny now to
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be like I'm hungry for knowledge and the first
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thing you think of is like Cookie Monster just
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devouring books or like a spiritual being offering
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you something Would you like some knowledge?
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Perhaps an apple Did we already get to Disney
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I think so Snow White is the is it the witch?
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Yeah who offers the apple she's not a i guess
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she is a witch but isn't she also like the queen
17:53
or something yeah well uh yeah they're always
17:57
a witch the queens are always witches queens
18:01
are always witches yeah that's how it works that's
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just it that's well that actually is how it works
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is it really the queen is always a witch oh in
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the disney yeah but also like in real life yeah
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what is it life imitates art that is true or
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art imitates life life imitates art other way
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around. I think it's meant to be reciprocal.
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Yeah, I think you're right. Never mind. I think
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inherent in the phrase is that it's reciprocal.
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Yeah, that makes sense. But yeah, no, I am hungry.
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And I had this thought. I had this thought, like,
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is there a Christian diet? Paul is there a Christian
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diet? I know Daniel had his fast. Yeah Is that
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part of is that part of Christian living? I think
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so Daniel's fast no pork Okay, well, okay. Well
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Yeah, no You know what we're just gonna get into
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it because I want the knowledge So here's my
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question, okay Is part of the Christian diet
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dragon? Is dragon part of the Christian diet?
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I just love to start with you going, I'm hungry.
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I'm hungry, Paul. I'm hungry. I could go for
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some dragon. Oh, that's why you ate Cookie Monster.
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That dragon tasty also love that like Cookie
19:34
Monster is a puppet has no hole in his mouth
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Yeah, so like the way all the cookies not being
19:40
eaten He's just chomping them and spitting them
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out. Yeah, like if I ate cookies like that people
19:46
think I was insane Which I also love because
19:52
like The force, I guess it's the guy's hand in
19:55
his mouth. Yeah, he's just crushing the cookies.
19:57
Because that grip strength has got to be insane.
19:59
That's a good point. Or the cookies are very
20:01
powdery. That's so true. It's like the sugar
20:04
glass that people break through the glass in
20:06
movies. And it's like a really thin glass. Yeah.
20:09
I wonder if those cookies are just like, you
20:11
could just like hit them like this and it would
20:13
just go pow. Yeah, because you think like just,
20:16
that's got to hurt after a while. Yeah. He has
20:18
strong fingers. Yeah, you have to. Grip strength.
20:22
I want to audition for Cookie Monster. It's like,
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all right, take this grip test. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
20:27
Shake my hand. You're hired. That's hilarious.
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But it is kind of funny because Cookie Monster,
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I don't know. I keep going back to if I ate cookies
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like Cookie Monster. It's not even the motion.
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I want to see it now. But it's not even the motion.
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It's the fact that the cookies are not staying
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in my mouth. Yeah, you'd have to do it in a way
20:47
where they don't actually go in your mouth. Like,
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they go in, but they don't stay. Like, you bite
20:53
down, and then as you let go, the recoil shoots
20:56
the cookie back out of your mouth. You have to
20:57
spit them as you bite them. That would actually
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be difficult to do. Yeah. I feel like I'd just
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breathe in cookies. Well, also, like, Cookie
21:05
Monster is an actual monster. Yeah. And that's
21:08
just what monsters do. And I think that's part
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of why he's a monster, because he doesn't actually
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eat the cookies. True. Like, his whole goal is
21:15
to destroy cookies. Yeah, good point. Is part
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of the Christian diet dragon? No, we spent most
21:25
of this on Cookie Monster. That's what the episode's
21:29
about. Cookie Monster. Cookie Monster. I like
21:31
that. It's good. Dragon. So dragon, which is
21:35
another kind of monster. It is a monster. Yeah.
21:38
Along with many, many monsters. So it's an interesting
21:41
question. And I think it's a little confusing
21:44
to me, to be honest. It's confusing, right? Yeah.
21:47
I'm glad you asked it. Thanks. So it's interesting.
21:53
So the dragon in that situation. Yeah. And that
21:57
is Leviathan. Okay. Who, to listeners of this
22:02
podcast, is a familiar character. Yes. To people
22:05
that aren't listeners, welcome. This is not a
22:07
familiar character, probably. I also feel like
22:11
going to Leviathan is not the first thing that
22:14
I would think of. Oh interesting. Because when
22:16
you say dragon, I often think of like the Satan
22:20
himself. Like Revelation 12, yeah. Because Leviathan
22:24
I think more of is like sea monster. Oh, yeah,
22:27
yeah, yeah. Right? Which is interesting because,
22:29
yeah, sea monster, which is a kind of dragon.
22:34
Oh, that's true. It's how he's described. Yeah.
22:36
The Loch Ness monster? Yeah. Isn't that a dragon?
22:39
I think so, yeah. I feel like the depictions
22:42
are more like Diplodocus. Good work. I wasn't
22:48
expecting that. It's a name. That's good. I have
22:53
small children. They know dinosaurs. Well, so
22:57
actually, on a quick, brief aside. Is Leviathan
23:00
a dinosaur? Yeah. Are you familiar with this?
23:03
I can't remember the year. It's like 18 -something.
23:05
There's a dictionary. Okay. It's a Webster dictionary.
23:08
Got it. 1860 -something, I think. 56? Maybe.
23:12
Do you know this? No. So the word dinosaur didn't
23:16
exist. I do know this. OK. And so my mom owns
23:20
the dictionary. No way. Only for the only reason
23:23
is because it doesn't have that word in it. That's
23:26
like the main draw to buy this dictionary. And
23:29
it's like wild. It's because the word was invented
23:31
in the late 1800s. Yes. And so what's interesting
23:35
about that is because everything that we now
23:37
call a dinosaur would have been called a dragon.
23:41
Oh, that was the That was what it was called
23:43
before him. Like that was the term. Yeah. That
23:45
makes sense. It's a dragon. Yeah. And we've started
23:49
since the late 1800s calling them dinosaurs.
23:51
You know what's crazy is I never even asked that
23:53
question. Because I've heard before, like, I've
23:56
heard the idea that, like, hey, Thomas Jefferson
23:58
didn't even know what a dinosaur was. Oh, yeah.
24:02
Because that name was not a name when he was
24:08
alive. Right, right. And you're like... Wait,
24:11
what? But I never stopped to ask the question,
24:13
then what did they call them? Right, because
24:15
they obviously were still like the idea was around
24:18
for the most part. Yeah, and seeing large skeletons
24:22
was actually more frequent back then than it
24:24
is now. Oh, sure. And not necessarily like in
24:27
the frequency of people finding them, but in
24:29
the passing of knowledge. Yeah. So like it feels
24:33
like if we find a large set of dinosaur bones
24:36
or large set of bones. No one talks about it.
24:41
Which is wild. It's kind of interesting. That's
24:44
a whole thing. That is a whole thing. It breeds
24:49
on conspiracy. 100%. So you're saying up until
24:53
about 150 years ago, any large creature was called
24:59
a dragon? Yeah. For the most part. This is a
25:01
hideous monster. It's a dragon. It was as generic.
25:04
to them as dinosaur is to us. At least to my
25:07
understanding, that's what I would say. That
25:09
makes sense. Yeah, which is, especially when
25:11
you look at just like old writings. Yeah, yeah.
25:15
Or, you know, myths and stuff. It's like, oh,
25:17
dragon this, dragon that. It's like, there's
25:18
a lot of dragons around here. Yeah, good point.
25:21
And it's like, oh, yeah, they're killing dinosaurs.
25:27
Why isn't that talked about more? It's weird,
25:29
right? It is weird. I feel like we should be
25:33
saying that because people automatically go to
25:36
fire breathing. Well, to myth, it's like that
25:39
actual thing, the whole thing didn't exist. We
25:43
make it, that's the fantasy is what we make it.
25:46
That was just their word for it. Yes. Well, no,
25:50
because what we say is, I think what we would
25:53
naturally lean into in that story would be like,
25:56
Well, there wasn't actually a large beast at
25:58
all. Oh, I see. That was just a physical representation
26:02
of what was going on in their coming of age moment.
26:06
So the individual had to overcome a large obstacle.
26:09
Let's call it a dragon. Sure. Instead of going,
26:13
no, they actually fought a beast. Well, so that's
26:17
actually kind of the interesting thing. I'm glad
26:18
you brought that up. Yeah. Because that's even
26:22
where some of the discrepancy even with this
26:24
question comes in. OK. of like, is it symbolic
26:29
or is it literal? I gotcha. Metaphorical or is
26:32
it literal? Gotcha. Because I think there are
26:35
in some, in some, especially like knights, it's
26:39
like, I'm not going to say they didn't fight
26:41
a giant real monster. Yeah. But also it's like,
26:44
it could have just been metaphorical. That's
26:48
true. For like that coming of age moment. That's
26:50
true. Depending on what... I'm not in a place
26:52
to say it is or it isn't real. Well, and also
26:55
depending on what literary avenue it arrives
26:59
to us at. Yeah. I wasn't sure how to get to the
27:03
end of that sentence. But it's like, is this
27:07
something that someone was just sitting down
27:09
writing a fun story to tell people? Or is this
27:12
an account of something? Yeah, because the the
27:16
other part of that too is even saying that oh
27:19
This is just like a metaphor for them overcoming
27:21
something big in their life sure like well that
27:24
also you saying that comes from a pre -supposition
27:27
Right when it's the pre -supposition that those
27:29
things aren't real. Oh, correct when it's like
27:32
wait, hold on Where'd you come up with that?
27:34
Yeah, you're starting with dragons are not real
27:36
Yeah, so when so that answer makes sense based
27:39
on your your Presupposition to this right so
27:43
what you're saying is in order for us to say
27:47
Dragons in old ancient stories are not actual
27:51
beings We would have to also conclude that dinosaurs
27:55
never existed yeah in some ways yeah because
27:58
that that could be an equivalent of And then
28:02
they fought a t -rex Which and that's either
28:06
part of it too. It's like so we we see that these
28:09
things did exist. Yeah So, why are we so confident
28:13
to say they didn't see them? We're also finding
28:15
out all kinds of things about the structure of
28:18
them putting together dinosaur bones. Oh, yes.
28:21
And being like, I don't think that's actually
28:23
how it was shaped. I think you guys put it together
28:27
wrong. Which is, I think, didn't they wipe out
28:30
three or four different dinosaurs as a whole?
28:33
They're like, actually, it's the same thing.
28:34
We just mixed it up. Well, as a dad with small
28:38
boys. Oh, yeah. I have found that the newer book
28:42
you get that has dinosaurs in it, the more feathers
28:46
there are. I have, so actually you know it's
28:50
funny. Which is really weird. That was something
28:52
that I heard when I was like nine or ten. That
28:57
they were, that they had feathers. That they
28:58
were like oh they're actually like chickens or
29:01
descendants of dinosaurs. And I was like. Well,
29:04
that's interesting. And then now it's like that's
29:07
becoming more of a mainstream idea that's like,
29:09
but these are just birds. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just
29:13
massive beasts. Yeah. But like imagine like a
29:17
huge like crow. Yeah. That was like the size
29:21
of a school bus. Yeah. That's horrifying. And
29:25
I think it is. But imagine if it was a hawk.
29:28
Right. Like a crow would be kind of annoying,
29:30
but a hawk. That's like you're like that giant
29:35
hawk again or that giant crow just flew by and
29:38
ate the whole village in one sweep That's crazy
29:43
It's literally the size of a school bus. It's
29:46
stomach. Yeah, and I think that's the thing.
29:48
It's kind of showing though at least with We'll
29:51
see where it ends up going in the next ten years.
29:53
Yeah It's like yeah, we're kind of fine. It's
29:56
like these aren't just like giant dragons. These
29:58
aren't oh, we'll end it back Don't worry. It's
30:00
like these aren't these probably aren't just
30:03
giant lizards, they're also just giant things.
30:05
Yeah, true. And so it's like, okay, where'd all
30:07
these giant things come from? You know what I
30:09
mean? Yeah. Yeah. But anyway. That's my segue.
30:16
I feel like that is a succinct idea, is like,
30:19
consider that everything that talked about dragons,
30:23
and it's funny because when you say that, I think
30:25
of like Shrek or like - Yeah. You think of those
30:29
things and you're like, oh, this is just some
30:30
mythical thing. Those beings didn't exist. But
30:33
as soon as you replace it with dinosaurs, now
30:35
it becomes a children's story. Right. It's like
30:38
there is no middle ground. If you say dragon,
30:39
it's fantasy. If you say dinosaur, it's for kids.
30:42
Yeah. It's like adult fantasy is like dragons
30:46
and mighty warriors. Yeah. And then turn them
30:50
into dinosaurs and it's for your kids. Well,
30:52
so that was actually, I remember when I was young.
30:54
It's propaganda. So we're being brainwashed,
30:57
we're being lied to. Bring back the dragons.
31:00
Where's my tinfoil hat? Wait, should we say that
31:02
as Christians? Bring back the dragons? No. Fair
31:07
enough. So, Ethan? I don't need to wake up in
31:09
the morning and be like, ugh, you know, just
31:11
crawl out of bed and be like, oh, there's a dragon
31:12
in my front yard. Well, there is a dragon. Can
31:16
you shoo them away? Throw gold? I don't know.
31:20
There is a book about how dragons love taco parties.
31:23
Do they really? It's a fantastic book. But they
31:26
do not like spicy salsa. You know, I also love
31:29
taco parties. Me too. If you're throwing one,
31:31
you can invite me. But dinosaurs don't like spicy
31:34
salsa. Sorry, dragons. Just because? It upsets
31:39
their stomach. That makes sense. It's like breathing
31:45
fire. Exactly. They get indigestion, start spittin'
31:50
fire. That's what happens. And then in the book,
31:52
they destroy the kids' house. Oh, that's terrible.
31:54
But then they build it back up. A bunch of dragons
31:57
rebuild the house. They're like, hey, sorry,
31:58
bro. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I love it. I didn't
32:03
say it was a good book, but it's enjoyable. You
32:05
did say it was a good book. OK, fair enough.
32:07
I like it. I'd read it. Yeah, it's like dragons
32:12
love tacos or something. Yeah. I don't know.
32:14
I think everyone loves tacos. So then should
32:16
we eat dragons? If we don't want dragons, should
32:19
we eat them instead? Well, you know what's interesting?
32:21
The Bible in some ways alludes to the fact that
32:24
they were given for food. Okay. Interesting,
32:28
right? Actually, it actually says that. That
32:30
dragons were given for food? Yeah. Or at least
32:32
one dragon. Paul, chapter verse me. I love the
32:35
fact that you said that. Let's turn to Psalm
32:39
74. Okay. In my digital Bible. Please. Please
32:43
turn your digital pages. I figured we were either
32:45
going to Genesis or Psalms. We'll end up in Genesis,
32:48
don't worry. Because actually, Psalm 74, for
32:53
those that haven't listened too much to the podcast,
32:55
it actually is, in a way, another creation story.
33:02
And so, 74, starting in verse 14. It really kind
33:10
of gets to the meat of where we're at. Actually,
33:16
I'm going to start. Yeah, give us some context.
33:18
I'm going to start in verse 12. Do it. That's
33:22
the context. Do it. And it says in ESV. Yes.
33:28
Yet God, my King, is from of old, working salvation
33:33
in the midst of the earth. You divided the sea
33:36
by your might. You broke the heads of the sea
33:39
monsters on the waters. You crushed the heads
33:42
of Leviathan. You gave him as food for the creatures
33:45
of the wilderness. You split open springs and
33:49
brooks. You dried up ever flowing streams. Yours
33:51
is the day. Yours is also the night. You have
33:54
established the heavenly lights and the sun.
33:57
You have fixed all the boundaries of the earth.
33:59
You have made summer and winter. So like this
34:03
is A creation story. Yeah But what's interesting
34:08
about this is it also includes which we've actually
34:11
talked about this with Genesis and the the correlation
34:15
or the not correlation but the kind of poking
34:19
that it does to The Mesopotamian myth. Yes. Yeah.
34:22
Yeah, and we were kind of seeing that here as
34:25
well Yeah, we're it's saying oh you crush the
34:27
head of the Leviathan You killed the sea monsters.
34:31
It's echoing the creation story. Yes. Yes. Yes.
34:34
And then it's saying, you gave it as food for
34:37
creatures of the wilderness. That's wild. Which
34:39
is interesting. Other translations say people
34:43
of the wilderness. OK. Which is also interesting.
34:47
That is interesting. And so there's a lot of
34:50
debate on what or who that is. The people. What
34:55
are the creatures? Some people are like, oh,
34:59
it's animals. Some people are like, it's people
35:01
that lived in the wilderness. It's actually King
35:04
James. Thou breakest the heads of Leviathan in
35:08
pieces and gaveest him to be meat to the people
35:13
inhabiting the wilderness. It's interesting,
35:16
yeah. Pretty interesting. But the King James
35:20
didn't have the Dead Sea Scrolls, so. That's
35:22
true. What do they know? They don't know anything.
35:26
All they had was that pesky Septuagint. But,
35:31
you know, you have little faith. Nevermind, I
35:38
won't say that. Continue on. Anyway, so what's
35:42
interesting... But the ESV says creatures. It
35:46
does say creatures. So are people accounted for
35:48
as part of creatures? That's a good question.
35:52
What type of people are accounted for as part
35:55
of creatures? Well, so it's also interesting
35:58
because in that chapter, it's talking about him
36:04
splitting the waters. Yes. And in the same breath,
36:07
it's saying you killed the sea monsters. You
36:10
cut off their heads. And it's like, OK, well,
36:14
what is going on here? So yeah, because in some
36:18
ways you could take it as a literal thing and
36:20
be like, oh, he's literally killing sea monsters
36:23
But then when you go to Genesis account of creation,
36:26
okay, you don't see that language there necessarily
36:29
true, but what we do see is So in this it's talking
36:34
about the waters and splitting the seas killing
36:38
monsters that live in the seas and I'll say this
36:44
first and then I'll show some of my work. Which
36:47
is, there's a very metaphorical thing that we
36:49
see consistent throughout scripture where waters
36:53
and chaos beings inside of waters, they are chaos.
36:58
So it's like, it talks about them in a way that...
37:01
doesn't really say that these are literal actual
37:03
things, but it does say, hey, these represent
37:06
just chaos and destruction and evil. Right, exactly.
37:09
And so one thing that's interesting is we see
37:11
that with, in creation, where it's like, okay,
37:17
well, when God said, in Genesis 1 .1, it says,
37:20
in the beginning, God created the heavens and
37:21
the earth. It's like, okay, well, what did he
37:23
create? Right, right. Because he didn't create
37:25
land yet. He just created the earth in the heavens,
37:27
but it's like, let's focus on the earth. Yes.
37:29
And it's like, well, what did the earth look
37:30
like? Yeah. And it says, oh, it was formless
37:32
and void. Yeah. What does that mean? Right. It
37:35
was like, oh, he created this thing and it was
37:36
nothing. It's like, what? It wasn't nothing.
37:39
And so we actually get our answer. I mean, you
37:43
can extrapolate it from looking at what he created.
37:46
Yeah. Where it says like, then he split the water
37:49
from the waters. Like, where'd the waters come
37:51
from? Yeah. He never created the waters. Right.
37:53
It was like, oh, he actually did. He created
37:56
them in the beginning. And so Formless and Void
37:59
is showing it's chaotic, it's water. And to make
38:03
that more concrete, we actually get that in 2
38:05
Peter 3, I believe. I don't remember what verse
38:08
it is off the top of my head. Yeah, we'll pull
38:13
that up so we can make that more concrete. That's
38:18
that is an interesting piece where it's like
38:20
when you actually look at the Hebrew and what
38:22
it's referencing and to what it's speaking to
38:26
the myths and the creation stories that already
38:30
exist when Moses is writing this down and Yahweh
38:33
specifically speaking to the idea that yes You
38:38
thought that these were there. This is how creation
38:41
happened. I'm saying I made those creatures that
38:44
you say created. Yeah Creation. Yes. Yeah, and
38:48
there's um, I think we've talked about this on
38:50
the podcast before but there is that tease in
38:52
the Hebrew language in Genesis Yeah, when it
38:55
talks about the deep Yes in the Hebrew word there
38:59
which is to home Which is the Hebrew equivalent
39:04
to Tiamat which ties right back into the Mesopotamian
39:08
myth about Marduk and Tiamat Yeah, we have an
39:12
episode called, Is Tiamat Leviathan? Yes. That's
39:17
where you find this. And so we're kind of seeing
39:20
that language, and then it echoed again in Psalm
39:23
74. But here we are, 2 Peter 3. I'm just going
39:26
to start in verse 1. Yeah, go for it. It says,
39:29
this is now the second letter that I'm writing
39:32
to you, beloved. In both of them, I am stirring
39:35
up your sincere mind. by way of reminder that
39:37
you should remember the predictions of the holy
39:39
prophets and the commandment of the Lord and
39:42
Savior through the apostles, through your apostles.
39:45
Knowing this first of all, that scoffers will
39:48
come in the last days with scoffing, interesting,
39:52
funny, scoffers come with scoffing, weird, following
39:57
their own sinful desires, they will say, where
40:00
is the promise of His coming? Forever since the
40:03
fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing
40:06
as they were from the beginning of creation.
40:09
For they deliberately overlook this fact that
40:12
the heavens existed long ago and the earth was
40:15
formed out of water and through water by the
40:19
word of God. And that by means of these the world
40:23
that then existed was deluged with water and
40:26
perished." Yeah, so speaking of the flood. Yes,
40:31
but it's also speaking of creation. Right. So
40:34
it's kind of this interesting thing where actually
40:36
it even continues on there, which we'll get to
40:38
in a minute, which is like, okay, so he created
40:43
the earth out of the water. So he created order
40:47
from chaos. But then it became chaos and then
40:53
he destroyed it again and started over. And he
40:55
did that by basically was like pulling up the
40:58
chaos again and then sinking it down. It's just
41:01
weird that like Verse five, for they deliberately
41:05
overlook this fact that the heavens existed long
41:08
ago and the earth was formed out of water and
41:12
through water by the word of God. When's the
41:15
last time you heard a sermon preached that talked
41:18
about the importance of water? Yeah. So when
41:22
we go Darwinian evolution, you go, where does
41:26
life come from in Darwinian evolution? It came
41:29
out of the water. Yes. Where did they get that
41:31
from? Everyone in history, apparently. Well,
41:34
if you read the Bible, it actually, like that's
41:39
actually where life comes from. Yes. In the Bible.
41:43
And that's not a crazy statement. I just read
41:46
2 Peter. Yeah. I mean, that's the thing. It's
41:49
like all it does is, in a way, it kind of just
41:53
makes it more concrete what Genesis is already
41:55
telling us. Yeah, the earth was formed out of
41:57
water and through water by the word of God. and
42:01
that by means of these, the world then existed
42:03
was deluged with water and perished. So it was
42:08
formed out of water, through water, and destroyed
42:12
by water. Yes. So is water good? It doesn't seem
42:19
like it. It seems like water is chaos. Yes. Which
42:24
is... Kind of the whole point right? Yeah, and
42:27
that's that's kind of the interesting thing about
42:29
this and I'm gonna speak I'm just gonna let myself
42:33
go here go for it. Then I'll ground it again.
42:36
Yeah. Yeah, it kind of maybe contradict myself
42:38
Okay, but it's like in some ways. It's It the
42:41
way he talks about it and the way we see it through
42:43
Genesis it to me It's like okay initially when
42:46
I read that it's like wait, so are all these
42:49
things just metaphorical? They didn't actually
42:51
happen, but they're just a symbolic way to talk
42:53
about them. Got it. And now we're back to, I
42:56
can't remember the famous knight right now, but
42:58
it's like him and the dragon. Shrek? No. But
43:03
yeah. Sir Shrek. King Arthur? I don't know. King
43:08
Arthur. I can't remember. There's a famous story.
43:13
It doesn't matter. But anyway, a night. Sleeping
43:16
Beauty? Killing a dragon. And then we're like,
43:18
oh, actually, this is. Beowulf? All metaphorical.
43:22
That is a good story. It is. And it's like, oh,
43:27
yeah, this is all just metaphorical. It's them
43:29
overcoming this extreme obstacle. Yeah. And we're
43:32
like, OK, cool. But then we have the story of
43:35
the flood. Yes. And it's like, wait, no, it's
43:37
telling us that this actually happened. Yes.
43:40
But it's also. It's double layered. It's like,
43:43
yeah, they are overcoming this chaos and creating
43:47
order. God is doing that thing. Yeah. And it's
43:50
like, yeah. And so this isn't just metaphorical,
43:54
but it's also a metaphor. Yeah. You know what
43:58
I mean? I do. Well, and to be fair, the way that
44:02
God consistently through the Bible tames chaos
44:06
is through way of water. So what I mean by that
44:12
is if you look at the casting out of demons,
44:20
the casting out of spiritual things, Jonah in
44:25
the whale, everything is going through the portal
44:27
of water in order to be bound or tamed or to
44:32
meet their destruction. So how does the earth
44:36
meet its destruction? Through the flood. Yeah.
44:41
Right. So then how is it formed is it was shaped
44:46
by water. Yeah. And then the waters were divided
44:50
in order for there to be order. Yes. And then
44:53
they were undivided in order for there to be
44:56
destruction divided once again for there to be
45:00
order. Yes. So God is taming water and by like
45:09
through it, creating order and what is good.
45:12
Which is interesting. It's very interesting.
45:15
Because then is the water itself a being, or
45:18
does it contain creatures and beasts? Yeah, so
45:23
what's interesting with that, I'm gonna take
45:25
a quick sidestep. Go. Because, and this also
45:27
ties back into second Peter, is because then
45:32
after the flood, he says, hey I'm not gonna do
45:34
this ever again. Right. Then second Peter says
45:37
yeah, he's not gonna do it again next time. It's
45:39
fire Yeah, true, which we didn't read that part,
45:42
but that's what comes next. Yeah And so he's
45:45
like, yeah, so this this water thing. I'm not
45:48
doing this anymore. Yeah, I got a new gimmick.
45:50
Yeah Not that guy has gimmicks Yeah, and so he
45:55
doesn't tend to do the same thing twice the same
45:59
way Yes, but he is thematically consistent. Yes,
46:03
that's correct, which is kind of cool So like
46:05
how he's gonna do it quite literally is almost
46:08
always different. Yes. But thematically in the
46:13
tools he uses are almost all the same. Yeah.
46:16
Which I think is intentional. For sure. And I
46:19
think it's not like... It shows order is what
46:22
it shows. It shows that things were created for
46:25
a unique and specific purpose. Yes. By him. Yeah.
46:29
so he's gonna use them for their original purpose.
46:32
And I think what's cool about it on the other
46:34
side of it is it's also a way of showing that,
46:37
hey, this isn't like a formula that you follow.
46:38
Right. Like, I'm actually the one doing this.
46:41
Yeah. And I know every way to do it. Yeah. Yeah.
46:45
So then, do we eat dragons? Yeah, so we'll jump
46:48
into that now. Okay, yeah. Which is kind of the
46:51
fun bit. Because, so now we've... we've basically
46:54
set up the idea that, hey, all this Leviathan
46:57
talk in the chaos, it's just a metaphor for chaos.
47:01
It's like, that's all it is. And so Psalm 74,
47:05
Genesis, I think even Revelation kind of brings
47:08
it up. Second Peter, it's like, even Isaiah 27,
47:11
I think, kind of talks about this. And it's like,
47:14
yeah, all these things, they're just, it's a
47:16
metaphor. But then we've got Job, where God describes
47:21
Leviathan and behemoth in pretty vivid detail.
47:26
So you're like, wait, how do you describe something
47:28
that's a metaphor? Right. Where in Job? Is it
47:33
chapter 31? Sure. Job's final appeal? No, it's
47:39
not that one. It's when God starts talking. That
47:41
was the first number that came to my head. I
47:44
always forget which chapter. Did you want to
47:45
read it? Does it matter? It could be fun. I wish
47:51
I remembered the reference right now. Okay, yeah
47:54
keep going I'll find it. So I mean it's um, so
47:59
it's interesting because it's like, if you find
48:01
it we can read it out. But it's like, okay so
48:05
if this thing is just a metaphor, well how do
48:09
you vividly describe, like if I'm like, oh yeah
48:12
this dog, like dogs, but dogs aren't real. it's
48:16
just a metaphor for, you know, meat, I don't
48:18
know. And then it's like, okay, this dog has
48:22
fur, it has four legs, it has a tail. It's like,
48:25
wait, how does meat have all those things? You
48:28
just told me it's a metaphor, but now you're
48:30
saying it's a real thing. And so for me, it begs
48:34
the question of... Is it real or is it metaphor?
48:39
And I think there's a place to say it's both.
48:42
It depends on the context. Sure. Where in some
48:46
places I think that it literally is talking about
48:49
a real ferocious being that existed in Rome the
48:53
Earth. Because even with Job he's not shocked
48:55
when God's telling him about it. Right. And we
48:58
see this in other myths too where they talk about
49:00
similar things. Where it's like these beings
49:03
just kind of existed and they're like, oh yeah.
49:06
That makes sense. But what he also gets is, oh,
49:12
this is an instrument of chaos. Yes. And so there's
49:17
a larger meaning to what he's also talking about
49:19
when he's referring to this real creature. Yeah.
49:24
Does he name Leviathan? He does. Yeah. OK. Yeah.
49:34
yeah that's that's and that's like one of the
49:37
big things that i think about and this is i found
49:40
it this is what makes it like kind of problematic
49:43
and like it makes it problematic for us meaning
49:47
we tend to brush these things off because the
49:50
older the story gets the more fantastical it
49:53
seems to our current and modern reality And that's
49:57
difficult because that's always gonna happen.
49:59
It's like when your grandmother, your great -grandmother
50:02
tells you a story, it feels fantastical to your
50:05
reality. Like the idea of like, just like silly
50:12
tropes of like, I walked up the hill, both ways
50:18
to school in the snow with no shoes. And you're
50:22
like, well that's not real. And it's like. No,
50:25
but it felt that way. It felt that way to them
50:29
and those things are real things like a hill
50:32
is real, snow's real, like school's real, hills
50:35
are real. You can imagine all of those things.
50:38
Yes, but it's like, was it an optical illusion
50:41
that they were actually walking uphill both ways?
50:44
No, it's just that one way was uphill, then the
50:47
other way was exhaustion. Yes. So there's like,
50:51
it's taking a concrete idea and extrapolating
50:55
it into, extrapolating it, exaggerating it into
51:01
a mirrored metaphor. Yeah. And that's one of
51:05
those things where the further back we go, the
51:07
more fantastical things get. Because to be honest
51:12
with you, it's funny how with a book like Job,
51:18
we, like Christians, are so quick to be like,
51:21
yes, God spoke to Job. No question. Okay, but
51:26
why isn't that as fantastical as what God is
51:35
expressing as literal things? Do you see what
51:38
I mean? We're like, yeah, I've never experienced
51:42
the skies opening up and God talking to me. I've
51:45
never experienced... let's say an angel of the
51:49
Lord interacting with me directly in a physical
51:53
way. And we don't know that if, we don't really
51:57
even know that in the Job conversation that it's
52:00
not a prayerful consciousness exchange. Where
52:05
maybe Job is in a state of vision or he's in
52:09
a daydream or he is by himself communicating
52:16
to God internally. That God is speaking to his
52:22
consciousness. Like we don't know necessarily
52:26
how God is speaking, but in that way we would
52:28
go, yeah, God speaks to people and he does it
52:31
through the Bible. Cool. That's fantastical.
52:35
In a similar category as saying what God is saying
52:39
is and can be true actual things. We just tend
52:45
not to. They're on the same level and same category,
52:51
like they're together. Yeah, yeah. So it's weird
52:54
that we would be non -questioning one and throwing
52:59
out the other altogether. And I think some of
53:02
it weighs on... And I think that's why some people
53:04
do just throw the whole thing out. Yeah. I think
53:06
that's why most people throw the whole thing
53:07
out. That's true. Because they go... That's ridiculous.
53:10
Yeah, yeah. Well, if Leviathan's not real, then...
53:14
why would Job have even talked to the God who
53:18
created him? It's like, okay, fair point. You
53:21
know what I mean? So I think I'd be on the side
53:24
of both of them are real. And I think that's,
53:29
we're often times, because this is kind of how
53:32
we're taught and then we've kind of tried to
53:36
harmonize the two things, which ends up just
53:38
creating problems, which is like in theory, I
53:43
think a lot of Christians are spiritual. Yeah.
53:47
Like we believe in spiritual things. We believe
53:49
in a spiritual God. Yeah. But in practice, we're
53:51
actually materialists. For sure. And it's because,
53:55
well, okay, God's real. Okay, this miracle happened.
53:58
Did it? Right. Hmm. Yeah, God's real. He spoke
54:03
to this guy. That's cool. I believe that. Yeah,
54:05
he said Leviathan's real. Yeah. Right. I don't
54:09
know. Yeah, it's also a dualism of life. Meaning
54:13
like, most of life is mundane. Most of life is
54:17
like, I gotta go to Walmart, and who knows what
54:22
I'm gonna run into, and all I'm trying to do
54:25
is get more ketchup. You know what I mean? It's
54:28
like, I need more, I don't know, I need milk.
54:33
It's like, all right, I gotta go do this thing.
54:35
Well, that seems so mundane and annoying and...
54:41
very like surface level material, practical five
54:45
senses, and then you go, and then I'm gonna go
54:49
to church and interact with the creator of the
54:51
world. And like these two things feel, I think
54:56
we've side -loaded them in a way that's not beneficial
55:00
to our ability to understand and allow the supernatural
55:04
space to be invading our every fiber and every
55:09
moment. You know what I mean? So then it's easy
55:12
to go into a conversation like this and go, yeah,
55:14
most of the Bible doesn't feel like it's actually
55:16
real. It's like, yeah, that's because the only
55:19
place that you interact with the creator is in
55:22
a siloed building. And in that siloed building,
55:26
all those people in there think that every other
55:28
siloed building is wrong. And it's like, everything
55:32
is so sectioned off. that it's hard to pull it
55:36
all together and go, actually there's something
55:37
bigger going on and everything is connected and
55:40
all working together. And that's kind of what
55:42
God's saying to Job. Hey, this is all connected
55:47
and working together. Yeah, it's just a lot bigger
55:49
than you. So I was so close. Only because I got
55:55
one... Number out of the two, right? Oh, it's
55:58
job 41. There you go I said 31 and I brought
56:01
you to like 38 or something. You did I was like
56:03
There it is So starting in verse one, okay ESP
56:10
It says can you draw out Leviathan with a fish
56:14
hook or press down his tongue with a cord? Can
56:18
you put a rope in his nose or pierce his jaw
56:20
with a hook? Will he make any pleas to you? Will
56:23
he speak to you soft words? Will he make a covenant
56:27
with you to take him for your servant forever?
56:31
Will you play with him as with a bird? Or will
56:35
you put him on a leash for your girls? Will traders
56:38
bargain over him? Will they divide him up among
56:41
the merchants? Can you fill his skin with harpoons
56:44
or his head with fishing spears? Lay your hands
56:48
on him. Remember the battle. You will not do
56:50
it again. Behold, the hope of a man is false.
56:54
He is laid low even at the sight of him. No one
56:57
is so fierce that he dares to stir him up. Who
57:00
then is he who can stand before him? Who has
57:03
first given to me that I should repay him? Whatever
57:06
is under the whole heaven is mine. I will not
57:09
keep silence concerning his limbs or his mighty
57:13
strength or his goodly frame. Who can strip off
57:17
his outer garment? Who would come near him with
57:20
a bridle? Who can open the doors of his face?
57:24
Around his teeth is terror. His back is made
57:27
of rows of shields. Shut up closely as with a
57:31
seal. One is so near to another that no air can
57:34
come between them. They are joined one to another.
57:37
They clasp each other and cannot be separated.
57:40
His sneezings flash forth light and his eyes
57:43
are like the eyelids of the dawn. Out of his
57:46
mouth go flaming torches. Sparks of fire leap
57:49
forth. Out of his nostrils come forth smoke.
57:53
As from a boiling pot and burning rushes. His
57:56
breath kindles coals and a flame comes from comes
57:59
forth from his mouth. In his neck abides strength
58:03
and terror dances before him. The folds of his
58:06
flesh stick together, firmly cast in him and
58:09
immovable. His heart is as hard as stone, hard
58:13
as the lower millstone. When he raises himself
58:16
up the mightier are afraid, at the crashing they
58:19
are beside themselves. Though the sword reaches
58:22
him, it does not avail, nor the spear, the dart,
58:25
or the javelin. He counts iron as straw and bronze
58:29
as rotten wood. The arrow cannot make him flee.
58:33
For him, sling stones are turned to stubble.
58:38
Clubs are counted as stubble. He laughs at the
58:40
rattle of javelins. His underparts are like sharp
58:44
potsherds. He spreads himself like a threshing
58:48
sledge of the mire. He makes the deep boil like
58:51
a pot. He makes the sea like a pot of ointment
58:55
Behind him he leaves a shining wake one would
58:58
think the deep to be white -haired on Earth there
59:02
is not like his a creature without fear. He sees
59:05
everything that is high. He's king over all the
59:08
sons of pride So I just read the entire chapter.
59:11
Yeah It was all about him, but well by the end
59:15
of that you start to go wait is Leviathan the
59:19
ancient serpent. Right. Like, whoa, whoa, whoa.
59:23
But also the idea of like being like potentially
59:26
is Leviathan the ancient serpent cast to the
59:31
earth tamed by God in the waters and then pushed
59:35
down through the waters and chained in Tartarus?
59:40
Which is interesting. Which that goes into a
59:48
whole timeline thing too. I know even that we've
59:50
already talked about of like all right. When
59:52
does this happen right? Yeah, that's and it's
59:56
like that could be one of sure because I think
59:59
that's the other thing we we can't ignore in
1:00:02
this or can't leave out is He could just be talking
1:00:05
about a spiritual being sure that is on earth.
1:00:10
It was cast down to earth. Yes Or it could just
1:00:14
be a physical being that he created in creation.
1:00:16
But here's the other thing, pulling all the way
1:00:18
back out and going, okay, Genesis, when it's
1:00:21
talking about this, it is hinting at a Mesopotamian
1:00:25
god. Yes. Right? Job is potentially living in
1:00:30
Mesopotamia. Yes. And Job is written pre the
1:00:35
books of Moses. Correct. Yeah. So the story of
1:00:38
Job, is very much within the Mesopotamian world.
1:00:42
Yes. Yeah. So when we go back to anything that
1:00:48
interacted with the Mesopotamian culture, we
1:00:51
start to get the language of a Leviathan. Yeah.
1:00:55
Or a sea creature who ruled the earth. Yeah.
1:01:02
Right? And that being was tamed by God. Also,
1:01:08
God says he created him. Yeah, so that's the
1:01:12
whole thing is like is that the ancient serpent
1:01:17
in Revelation hmm or to your point is it just
1:01:22
a Serpent yeah one of potentially many that's
1:01:30
because that's the part with or different because
1:01:33
I don't know if we read this far in Psalm 74
1:01:36
but it talks about like, oh, I think this was
1:01:39
in the beginning, it's like before you laid the
1:01:40
foundations of the earth, you crushed these monsters.
1:01:44
So it's kind of like, oh, there was stuff that
1:01:46
was going on and God tamed it, he created the
1:01:51
order from the chaos. He took the beings that
1:01:54
were there and was like, yeah, you're defeated.
1:01:56
And that gets back to our discussion about the
1:02:00
timeline of when did Satan fall and helps elevate
1:02:04
the concept of pre Genesis 1. Yes. Pre Genesis
1:02:09
1, 2. Yeah. That like this taming of the waters
1:02:15
is potentially the idea echoed in these other
1:02:21
passages like Job where it's saying this is all
1:02:24
happening as part of creation that in some ways
1:02:28
creation wasn't a everything from nothing, but
1:02:32
rather a taming of chaos into order. Yeah. So
1:02:39
taking what had been created and bringing order
1:02:44
to it. Right. Which is what God is doing. Yeah.
1:02:49
And He's doing it by His words. Yes. But, okay,
1:02:53
let's back all the way out. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:02:57
So Ezekiel 29 .3, I'm going to read this to you.
1:03:00
Have you read this? Not recently. Ezekiel 29
1:03:04
3 because there's something about this that I'm
1:03:05
that I'm interested in because we're we're kind
1:03:07
of kicking off of Psalm 74 yes passage so Ezekiel
1:03:12
29 verse 3 it says Thus says the Lord Behold
1:03:17
I am against you Pharaoh king of Egypt the great
1:03:20
dragon that lies in the midst of his streams
1:03:23
that says My Nile is my own I made it for myself
1:03:29
I will put hooks in your jaws and make the fish
1:03:32
of your stream stick to your scales. Sounds a
1:03:35
lot like Job. It does. And I will draw you up
1:03:38
out of the midst of your streams with all the
1:03:40
fish of your streams that stick to your scales.
1:03:43
And I will cast you out into the wilderness.
1:03:47
You and all the fish of your streams. You shall
1:03:50
fall on the open field and not be brought together
1:03:54
or gathered. to the beasts of the earth and to
1:03:57
the birds of the heavens I give you as food.
1:04:01
So tying all of this stuff together, this Ezekiel
1:04:04
passage, Ezekiel 29 .3 is basically echoing the
1:04:08
sea beast mentioned in Job, mentioned in Psalm
1:04:12
74, and then talking about the ripping apart
1:04:15
of this. and scattered along the land. So it's
1:04:20
this sea beast that says this water is mine.
1:04:23
He literally says the Nile is mine in Egypt.
1:04:27
And God says, I'm gonna pull you out of there.
1:04:30
I'm gonna put a hook in your jaw, pull you out
1:04:32
of the water, rip you apart, and throw you across
1:04:36
the land. So I'm removing you from your safe
1:04:40
place. I'm pulling you apart, destroying you,
1:04:43
and then I'm feeding you to the... to the animals,
1:04:46
the creatures, and the birds of the air. And
1:04:48
that's the similar idea. Yeah, because it's that
1:04:52
idea of... Like the destruction of Leviathan
1:04:54
was a removal from the waters and the scattering
1:04:58
into the wilderness. And the creatures of the
1:05:03
wilderness and of the land would feed on that.
1:05:08
Because the metaphorical language in that...
1:05:11
is um and even going back to even creation yeah
1:05:15
it's the idea of like all right who are the creatures
1:05:17
of the wilderness that feed on this it's like
1:05:19
well it's everything that takes part in god's
1:05:22
order yes so when god first created the earth
1:05:25
as we know it today yeah or as i guess we did
1:05:29
know it then yeah um it's like oh so all the
1:05:33
creatures that fed upon leviathan the chaos yeah
1:05:36
those are the ones that are now partaking in
1:05:38
the order that God created from chaos. Yeah.
1:05:43
And so what's interesting with that... Wait.
1:05:46
Go ahead. Okay. Say what you're gonna say. No,
1:05:49
no, I'll finish. Okay, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:05:53
And so what's interesting about this is... So...
1:05:58
And this is going back into the original question.
1:06:01
Okay. Because I have a question to end your question.
1:06:04
Okay, I like it. Is that... later in some Jewish
1:06:12
texts, actually we see it specifically in, I
1:06:15
think the Talmud actually talks about it like
1:06:17
very vividly, and then even in like second temple
1:06:22
literature, other second temple literature, Enoch
1:06:26
being a part of that, we actually see it kind
1:06:30
of explicitly say like, oh no, the righteous
1:06:32
will feed on the Leviathan in the end. And so
1:06:36
that ties into, I think we even see some language
1:06:38
in that in Revelation, but it's referring to
1:06:41
the bridegroom being united and finally given.
1:06:46
And it's like, oh, then it's like part of the
1:06:48
feast is Leviathan is the assumption in there.
1:06:51
And so it's interesting is that there's the metaphorical
1:06:55
side of it that it seems like we're getting from
1:06:58
scripture that's saying, oh, the righteous will
1:07:02
partake in God's order. But then there's the
1:07:08
other side of it where people have taken it literal
1:07:11
and said, we will literally eat a dragon. Oh,
1:07:15
okay. Well, it does also make me think of, you've
1:07:19
prepared a table for me in the midst of my enemies.
1:07:23
And then it also makes me think, and this would
1:07:26
be my maybe this is like yeah maybe this is the
1:07:30
the question i like that idea that like leviathan
1:07:33
in the end is the feast that the groom has prepared
1:07:39
for the bridegroom yeah and because when you
1:07:41
look at it conquering because when you look at
1:07:44
it in that way it's like we're looking at here's
1:07:46
the culmination of god's establishing order yes
1:07:51
and now we're all conquerors with him Yes, because
1:07:54
he did it in the beginning. Yes. And he comes
1:07:58
and brings us into and sets a table, a place
1:08:02
for us to partake in his victory. Yes. Over not
1:08:09
the end point, but all the way from the beginning.
1:08:15
Yeah, yeah. And that's like, I mean, there's
1:08:18
echoes of Genesis 1 in the beginning. And then
1:08:23
John won in the beginning. The word was with
1:08:28
God and the word was God. And that idea that
1:08:31
like it's the tying together of all these things
1:08:33
that what happened in the beginning was speaking
1:08:37
to what will happen in the end. And the beginning
1:08:39
spoke to the solution all at the same time. That
1:08:43
it's all interconnected. That there was always
1:08:46
going to be a table for the righteous to partake
1:08:49
in the victories of Yahweh. Which means that
1:08:55
from the the taming of the waters in Genesis
1:08:59
1 We're already speaking of the victory of Christ.
1:09:03
Yeah. Yes, which is awesome. It's pretty cool
1:09:05
It also makes me think this and this is the question
1:09:08
that maybe we should end with I like it is Was
1:09:14
the destruction and the tearing apart of Leviathan
1:09:18
and the spreading out onto the earth the original
1:09:24
Five fish and three loaves Multiplied to the
1:09:29
5 ,000 Is that a glimpse of the marriage stuff
1:09:33
is that you also actually can I say this real
1:09:36
quick? Yes How many chapters are there in John
1:09:39
is it 31 chapters? I don't know. It's either
1:09:42
21 or 31. Okay I'm getting my numbers. Is it
1:09:45
a significant number? Not necessarily I'll find
1:09:48
out in two seconds. I'm perfect. So what's interesting
1:09:51
is so that's It's 21. Okay. I keep wanting to
1:09:57
say 31. You added 10 and then you subtracted.
1:10:00
I subtracted. Oh no, both times you subtracted.
1:10:02
I just went in the middle. So what's cool about
1:10:08
that chapter is, so this, that is the third time
1:10:12
that Jesus appeared to the apostles post resurrection.
1:10:17
And so in that chapter, that's when they're out
1:10:20
fishing. and then this figure, they didn't know
1:10:23
it was him at the time, says, hey, cast the net
1:10:25
on the other side. And then that's when they,
1:10:28
I think it says 153 fish they find, and they're
1:10:30
like, and the net didn't break, but we pulled
1:10:33
up all these fish, and they all know it's Jesus,
1:10:36
but they're like, we didn't ask because we already
1:10:38
know it's him, even though we didn't recognize
1:10:39
him. And so what's interesting is that's, again,
1:10:44
it's another point of showing he has authority
1:10:47
over all of these things, including the water.
1:10:50
Because then even in that, that's where it ends
1:10:52
with him asking Peter, he says, do you love me?
1:10:56
He says, yeah, of course. He's like, okay, then
1:10:59
feed my sheep. He's like, do you love me? He's
1:11:01
like, yes, I just told you that. He's like, okay,
1:11:04
I can't read the second thing. He's like, okay,
1:11:06
do this to my sheep. And then he asked him again
1:11:09
a third time, he's like, do you love me? And
1:11:11
Peter's like, goodness gracious, yes. And he's
1:11:15
like, okay, guide my sheep. Right. Yeah. And
1:11:18
it's this calling into like, hey, I have authority
1:11:21
and I'm giving it to you. Now, lead my people.
1:11:23
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And a restoring of the three
1:11:26
times that Peter denied him. Yes. Which is a
1:11:29
cool reversal. Also, you go, why was it important
1:11:32
that it was 153 fish? Because I think you're
1:11:35
right. I think that is the number. Yeah. I think
1:11:38
because, and correct me if I'm wrong, anyone.
1:11:44
But the number 153, because the Hebrew alphabet
1:11:48
is also their numeric system, there is a number
1:11:51
equivalent to every word. And I believe that
1:11:58
153 spells out like I am. Or it spells out like
1:12:07
the name of the Lord. Because after they know
1:12:10
the number, then they knew it was the Lord. Yeah.
1:12:14
So there's a correlation between the number itself
1:12:17
and their recognition of who it was. Oh, that's
1:12:20
cool. Because Peter jumps from the boat. Yes.
1:12:23
So that's the thing is like they count the fish
1:12:25
first and they don't know who the guy is. Yeah.
1:12:29
They count the fish and then they go, oh, it's
1:12:32
the Lord. Yeah. And then Peter jumps in the water
1:12:35
and swims back to shore. Yeah. And gets there
1:12:37
before the rest of them. And Jesus is just like
1:12:40
Cooking fish. He's just cooking Leviathan He's
1:12:44
gonna serve them the dragon. I hope you guys
1:12:46
are hungry for dragon. Yeah see monsters on the
1:12:49
menu. I love that so I guess the Christian not
1:12:55
diet, but maybe banquet buffet the the Marriage
1:13:00
feast what will be served at the Christian buffet?
1:13:05
Leviathan Leviathan three three one How does
1:13:23
Cookie Monster stay so thin? How does Cookie
1:13:31
Monster stay so thin? Why can't I talk? He never
1:13:34
actually swallows the pears! Did you know that
1:13:36
Cookie Monster... He never actually swallows
1:13:39
the cookies! Can you believe it? This week on
1:13:44
Mario's World... How does Cookie Monster stay
1:13:47
so thin? He never actually swallows the cookies!
1:13:51
Are you hungry for knowledge? Leviathan, it's
1:13:53
what's for dinner. Three, two, one.