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Trump's Triple Crown · Pod Save America

• 0:20
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau. Dan is
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: still on vacation, but I have a fantastic guest host
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: with me today. Hysteria co-host and my pal... Alyssa Mastromonica.
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: Fabs, I'm so delighted to be here.
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: It's so great to have you.
• 0:34
  Speaker 3: In person, no less.
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: Look, I dressed Trey California for you. Have on my
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: very old Led Zeppelin t-shirt from college.
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: You look like you've been here for years.
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: That's the whole plan.
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: All right, on today's show, Donald Trump's back in court
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: for his third indictment. His Republican opponents react to the
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: new felony charges. A New York Times poll has him
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: tied with Joe Biden. And later, Hallie Kiefer joins us
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: for another round of, well, well, well, looks like everyone's
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: a fucking lawyer all of a sudden. But first, instead
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: of us giving you regurgitated legal takes on the latest
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: Trump indictment that we got from listening to strict scrutiny,
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: we are joined by one of the show's hosts, the
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: brilliant Leah Lippman. Leah, welcome.
• 1:15
  Speaker 4: Thank you for having me.
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: So let's dive in. Donald Trump will be arraigned at
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: the federal courthouse in D.C. today. Obviously, right after we
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: record this, he's adding four felony charges to his growing collection.
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: These are the most serious, all related to his attempt
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: to steal the election he knew he had lost. Trump's
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: campaign has responded with a statement comparing the indictment to
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: persecution in Nazi Germany. And his lawyer, John Loro, has
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: been on cable news previewing his defense. Here he is
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: on CNN.
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: Mr.
• 1:44
  Speaker 5: Trump had the advice of counsel, Mr. Eastman, who was
• 1:48
  Speaker 5: one of the most respected constitutional scholars in the United States,
• 1:52
  Speaker 5: giving him advice and guidance. That's pure politics. You may
• 1:57
  Speaker 5: disagree with it, and people have spirited arguments about the
• 2:00
  Speaker 5: law all the time, and that's why lawyers are in business.
• 2:03
  Speaker 5: But we've never had a situation where a spirited debate
• 2:06
  Speaker 5: about the Constitution has become a criminal case. What's going
• 2:09
  Speaker 5: to happen when there's a Republican administration? Is there going
• 2:13
  Speaker 5: to be an effort to criminalize speech by Democrats? Is
• 2:16
  Speaker 5: there going to be an effort to characterize something that
• 2:19
  Speaker 5: a Democrat politician says that doesn't meet some kind of
• 2:23
  Speaker 5: truth standard at the Department of Justice, that that's going
• 2:26
  Speaker 5: to be the subject of a criminal indictment? We've now
• 2:30
  Speaker 5: entered a constitutional abyss as a result of this indictment.
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: Just a spirited debate about the Constitution that resulted in
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: flagpoles being stuck into police officers. That's usually what happens
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: with spirited debates. Leah, I heard two arguments there.
• 2:46
  Speaker 4: I heard zero, so I'm curious what you think.
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: Well, these are the two that have been floating around.
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: One is an advice of counsel defense where they plan
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: to argue that Trump was just listening to his crazy lawyers.
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: It's not Trump, it's his crazy lawyers. And two... this
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: free speech argument that seems to be getting a disturbing
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: amount of traction in the mainstream media. I saw a
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: New York Times headline that was like free speech versus,
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: you know, overthrowing the government. What would you say in
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: response to each of those arguments? Yeah.
• 3:15
  Speaker 4: So on the first one, I mean, it's true that
• 3:17
  Speaker 4: sometimes relying on the advice of counsel is a defense
• 3:19
  Speaker 4: to crimes, at least where the crimes have like a
• 3:22
  Speaker 4: specific intent requirement where you have to know that what
• 3:25
  Speaker 4: you're doing is illegal or you have to know that
• 3:26
  Speaker 4: what you're doing is false. The problem here is that
• 3:29
  Speaker 4: he's relying on the advice of, you know, Schor, his counsel,
• 3:32
  Speaker 4: who also happened to be co-conspirators in this entire criminal conspiracy.
• 3:36
  Speaker 4: And he also knew that he was getting the advice
• 3:38
  Speaker 4: of basically every sane person on the planet, including, you know,
• 3:42
  Speaker 4: sane Republicans in the administration, other lawyers in the administration
• 3:45
  Speaker 4: who were telling him all of this is bullshit and
• 3:48
  Speaker 4: you can't do it. And his response was basically no. well,
• 3:52
  Speaker 4: some other lawyers are telling me this, so I'm just
• 3:55
  Speaker 4: going to go ahead and pick the guys who are
• 3:56
  Speaker 4: telling me I can do a coup and stay in power.
• 3:59
  Speaker 4: And that's not really relying on the advice of counsel
• 4:01
  Speaker 4: so much as picking the thing you want to do
• 4:04
  Speaker 4: and finding some cover for doing it anyways. So that's
• 4:07
  Speaker 4: on the advice of counsel. I just have to note
• 4:10
  Speaker 4: that the fall from one of the most respected constitutional
• 4:14
  Speaker 4: lawyers in the United States to co-conspirator number two is
• 4:18
  Speaker 4: really quite impressive. You know, on the First Amendment defense,
• 4:22
  Speaker 4: I mean, this was predictable. You know, this has been
• 4:25
  Speaker 4: a favorite argument of a conservative legal movement that they
• 4:28
  Speaker 4: have used to basically dismantle. campaign finance regulation, as well
• 4:32
  Speaker 4: as attempts to regulate political corruption. So it's not surprising,
• 4:36
  Speaker 4: but it's bullshit. I mean, you don't have a First
• 4:38
  Speaker 4: Amendment right to overthrow the results of a democratic election,
• 4:43
  Speaker 4: nor do you have a First Amendment right to throw
• 4:46
  Speaker 4: out legitimately cast votes and deny other people their civil rights.
• 4:50
  Speaker 4: Like the Constitution does not give you a right to
• 4:52
  Speaker 4: violate the Constitution. That's not how this works.
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I just, like, And Jack Smith in the indictment
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: and like the first page or the second page is
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: basically like Donald Trump is free to lie about the
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: results of the election all he wants. And that's not
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: why we're indicting him. It's that he used those lies
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: to then try to throw out legally cast votes and
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: keep himself in power.
• 5:21
  Speaker 4: Exactly.
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: So resistance hero Bill Barr said on CNN last night
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: that– He doesn't think the advice of counsel defense would
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: work because he thinks that to make that argument, Trump
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: would have to take the stand. Why is that?
• 5:36
  Speaker 4: Because it speaks to his own mind and what he
• 5:40
  Speaker 4: thought he was doing and why he did what he did.
• 5:43
  Speaker 4: And because that's an element of the crime that Trump
• 5:45
  Speaker 4: would be basically disputing. If he said, well, I did
• 5:48
  Speaker 4: this because I relied on counsel, then he would need
• 5:51
  Speaker 4: to say that's why I did it. But that would
• 5:53
  Speaker 4: require him to take the stand.
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: And that doesn't seem like it's ever going to happen.
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: Seems perilous.
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: Seems perilous. It makes for real entertainment, though.
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: I mean, that's all he's about.
• 6:03
  Speaker 4: The fact that it seems perilous, though, I think is
• 6:06
  Speaker 4: another piece of evidence why this defense doesn't work. Because
• 6:09
  Speaker 4: even though Jack Smith in the indictment said, you know,
• 6:12
  Speaker 4: he has a right to lie about the election all
• 6:14
  Speaker 4: he wants— That's not actually true in all contexts. Like
• 6:17
  Speaker 4: he doesn't have a right to lie in court about
• 6:19
  Speaker 4: what happened in the election. That's called perjury. You don't
• 6:22
  Speaker 4: have a right to lie to federal officials. That is
• 6:25
  Speaker 4: a federal crime. So there are contexts in which you
• 6:28
  Speaker 4: cannot lie and using lies to, again, throw out the
• 6:33
  Speaker 4: results of a democratic election and legitimate votes just happens.
• 6:36
  Speaker 3: To be one of them.
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: You guys did a great bonus episode on Strict on
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: the indictment right after it dropped, which everyone should check out.
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: Now that you've had a little more time to sit
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: with the document, how strong of a case do you
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: think this is?
• 6:50
  Speaker 3: I think the.
• 6:50
  Speaker 4: Indictment is one of the stronger indictments I have ever read,
• 6:55
  Speaker 4: just in the overall theory it lays out, as well
• 6:57
  Speaker 4: as in the specific pieces of evidence that it marshals
• 7:00
  Speaker 4: in support of all of the elements of the crime.
• 7:03
  Speaker 4: But I also think that there are things that are
• 7:04
  Speaker 4: probably not included in the indictment that Jack Smith will
• 7:08
  Speaker 4: be able to rely on at any trial. In addition
• 7:13
  Speaker 4: to all of the things in the indictment, There have
• 7:15
  Speaker 4: been other reports about Trump telling people basically, I know
• 7:18
  Speaker 4: I lost and I'm embarrassed about that. And not all
• 7:22
  Speaker 4: of that is included in the indictment, but that too
• 7:24
  Speaker 4: would speak to whether he knew that what he was
• 7:26
  Speaker 4: saying were lies.
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: What's your best guess as to why Jack Smith hasn't
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: charged Trump's six co-conspirators yet?
• 7:34
  Speaker 4: My guess is he did a single person indictment just
• 7:38
  Speaker 4: for efficiency to try to get this case to move
• 7:40
  Speaker 4: along as quickly as possible. if he charged other people
• 7:44
  Speaker 4: together in the same indictment, then that could lead to
• 7:47
  Speaker 4: other delays and trying to coordinate between multiple defendants and
• 7:51
  Speaker 4: figuring out whether to sever cases and have different trials
• 7:54
  Speaker 4: for some of the charges. And so my best guess
• 7:57
  Speaker 4: is this is an attempt to streamline the case to
• 7:59
  Speaker 4: get it to proceed as expeditiously as possible, but that's
• 8:02
  Speaker 4: just conjecture.
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: On that note of timing, what do you think the
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: chances are this trial happens before the election? And do
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: you think Trump's inevitable attempts to delay will work in
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: this case?
• 8:15
  Speaker 4: I mean, he's already booked in March, and he's already
• 8:18
  Speaker 4: booked in May with other trials. And there is a
• 8:23
  Speaker 4: real limit on how quickly you can schedule a trial
• 8:26
  Speaker 4: just because there has to be discovery conferences, there might
• 8:29
  Speaker 4: need to be settlement negotiations, there will have to be
• 8:32
  Speaker 4: disclosures of evidence. And so, you know, My best guess
• 8:38
  Speaker 4: is we're probably looking at summer or fall 2024. It's
• 8:43
  Speaker 4: possible he tries to squeeze it in between March and May,
• 8:48
  Speaker 4: you know, or who knows, maybe really try to go January. But,
• 8:52
  Speaker 4: you know, there's a reason we are still seeing sentencing
• 8:55
  Speaker 4: in the January 6th proceedings, right, in the same district court.
• 8:59
  Speaker 4: These cases take time.
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: You said something on the strict bonus episode that is
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: now keeping me up at night, which is that your
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: pals on the Supreme Court might end up weighing in
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: on this case. What's the argument you're worried about them making?
• 9:13
  Speaker 4: So they are the true elite strike force legal team,
• 9:16
  Speaker 4: and they're all capitalized, and they are not above, you know,
• 9:21
  Speaker 4: beaming down some conspiracy shit from the motherboard that is
• 9:24
  Speaker 4: the Supreme Court. You know, I think there are different
• 9:26
  Speaker 4: theories that they could embrace that we're worried about. One
• 9:30
  Speaker 4: is they could narrowly interpret some of the statutes, like
• 9:33
  Speaker 4: the general civil rights statute, to say, that what Trump
• 9:37
  Speaker 4: did here, attempting to throw out ballots, doesn't actually come
• 9:41
  Speaker 4: within the ambit of the civil rights statute, either because
• 9:45
  Speaker 4: casting a vote doesn't qualify as one of the civil
• 9:49
  Speaker 4: rights protected by the statute, or maybe because challenging these
• 9:52
  Speaker 4: ballots doesn't count as a deprivation under the civil rights statute.
• 9:56
  Speaker 4: I don't know what kind of hootenanny they will come
• 9:58
  Speaker 4: up with, but they have adopted really strange interpretations of
• 10:02
  Speaker 4: federal laws in order to narrow federal statutes dealing with
• 10:06
  Speaker 4: political corruption. And then the second argument is the First
• 10:09
  Speaker 4: Amendment argument. You know, it is possible that they will
• 10:12
  Speaker 4: narrowly construe the statute or say its particular application here
• 10:16
  Speaker 4: is criminalizing constitutionally protected speech. And if you think that's strange,
• 10:20
  Speaker 4: that hasn't stopped them before. They think that constitutionally protected
• 10:25
  Speaker 4: speech doesn't really include unions and fair share public fees
• 10:30
  Speaker 4: for unions, but it does include basically everything Republicans want
• 10:35
  Speaker 4: to do, like spend a ton of corporate money in elections.
• 10:39
  Speaker 4: So this is the danger.
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: Yikes.
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: Yikes.
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: Leah Littman, thanks as always for joining and for making
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: us all smarter. We appreciate it.
• 10:48
  Speaker 4: Thank you for having me.
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: Quick housekeeping note before we get to break. If you're
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: in the Los Angeles area, Love It or Leave It
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: is bringing the Errors Tour back to L.A. with a
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: show at Dynasty Typewriter tonight, Thursday, August 3rd at 7.30.
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: Check it out. The guests are Ife Nwadiwe, R.K. Russell,
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: Justin Simeon, and Luanel. Head to cricket.com slash events to
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: get your tickets now. We'll be right back. All right, Alyssa,
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: let's dig into the politics of Trump's third indictment. Because
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: apparently Republican voters are cool with a frontrunner who's 78
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: felony counts deep. And most of his opponents have no
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: idea what to do about that.
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: Well, and since he's 77, it's like 77 and one
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: to grow on.
• 11:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: I thought he was 70. We made a mistake on
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: the last pod. We thought he was 78.
• 11:47
  Speaker 3: No, no.
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: It's one to grow on.
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, one to grow on. I like that. So Ron
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: DeSantis' first reaction was actually a tweet that said he
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: hadn't read the indictment yet. He's seen reports. He hadn't
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: read the indictment yet. But he thinks that Trump should
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: only have to face a jury of people who voted
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: for him. This is the Ron DeSantis argument. Donald Trump
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: has now adopted this, too, is that, like, D.C. juries
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: don't count because there's too many Democrats in D.C. So
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: we only get to try cases now in red areas.
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: That's the only fair trial. So that's cool. Tim Scott, right,
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: he tells us he's running the optimistic, positive campaign. He's
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: the hope and change guy for this race, right? He
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: accused the Department of Justice of hunting down Republicans, hunting Republicans.
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: Vivek Ramaswamy said he would pardon Trump if he's convicted.
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: But maybe the most interesting response came from Trump's vice president,
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: Mike Pence. who provided damning evidence to Jack Smith and
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: will probably end up testifying against his old boss. Let's listen.
• 12:48
  Speaker 6: But the American people deserve to know that President Trump
• 12:53
  Speaker 6: and his advisors didn't just ask me to pause. They
• 12:57
  Speaker 6: asked me to reject votes, return votes, essentially to overturn
• 13:01
  Speaker 6: the election. Sadly, the president was surrounded by a group
• 13:04
  Speaker 6: of crackpot lawyers that kept telling.
• 13:06
  Speaker 3: Him what his itching ears wanted to hear.
• 13:08
  Speaker 7: The president ultimately... ultimately continue to demand that I choose
• 13:15
  Speaker 7: him over the Constitution, that I chose the Constitution, and
• 13:19
  Speaker 7: I always will. I really do believe that anyone who
• 13:26
  Speaker 7: puts themselves over the Constitution should never be president of.
• 13:28
  Speaker 8: The United States.
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: All right, Alyssa, before we get into the Republican reaction,
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: one of which we just heard, what was your reaction
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: to the indictment? I know it wasn't exactly a surprise,
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: but what were your thoughts when you read that thing?
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: Okay, so first, I think DOJ's got the goods. I
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: don't think that they're going to come out with this
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: if they aren't lock, stock, ready to go. That was
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: my reaction.
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: One... They're not going to Mueller this thing.
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: This is not a Mueller, this isn't Mueller-lite, right? And
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: the other thing, couple things, I mean, fabs, I just
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: feel so seen, you know? Like, we feel so gaslit.
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: We're like, no, no, no, we watched this happen on television. Like,
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: we watched this happen.
• 14:14
  Speaker 3: It happened.
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: And for the past how many years, people have been like,
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: but did it? But did it happen? And I think
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: what DOJ is telling us is that it did happen
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: and that Donald Trump did sit in the Oval Office
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: and not do anything for most of the day. And
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: so that was really, you know, and I think, you know,
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: politically it's going to be super disruptive to the Republican primary.
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: You know, I don't think it does much for Democrats.
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: I don't think it does much for, you know, public discourse.
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: But I think for the primary, I mean, think about it.
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: Every single time these guys are running, they're going to
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: be asked the question like Pence was yesterday. What do
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: you think? And the way that they parse their answer
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: is going to get dodgier and spicier every single time.
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: I will tell you that when I read it and
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: just now when Leah told us that her best guess
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: for when the trial happens could be the fall of 2024,
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: I got a bad feeling in my stomach.
• 15:10
  Speaker 3: You know, I always.
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: You and I always talk about the bad feelings in
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: our stomach.
• 15:12
  Speaker 3: Bad feeling, yeah.
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: Because... Pundits on cable, Twitter, whatever, they engage in a
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: lot of hyperbole around these things, right? Stipulated. But I
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: really do think this could be like the most important
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: trial in American history.
• 15:28
  Speaker 3: Absolutely.
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: Certainly in the last hundred years. And it really is.
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: I think there was a slate headline. It's like Trump
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: or democracy. And the fact that we are heading towards
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: another election with Donald Trump as a potential winner of
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: that election.
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: My God.
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: And right before that, he is going to trial. And
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: I was trying to imagine, not to keep everyone up
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: at night, imagine if he is acquitted in the fall
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: of 2024 as he's heading into the final month and
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: what that's going to look like.
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: And you know what I would think about that keeps
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: me up at night? What if the trial ends but
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: the jury is still deliberating around Election Day? I mean,
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: there's just– And it's like, I'm not, it's not funny.
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: It's not funny, but no. And, and, and we have
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: treated it in the last several weeks as like, you know,
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: plenty of jokes because you have to laugh. Right. But
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: it suddenly feels like we are back in a moment
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: that is, that is pretty high stakes.
• 16:22
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: The highest stakes and somewhat frightening. And it's like, look, he,
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: and watching, and we're about to talk about the Republican reaction,
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: but just watching these people try to defend this and, oh,
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: he was just, He didn't challenge the election results because
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: he thought he won. He tried to overturn the election
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: results because he knew he lost.
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: Also, if he thought that he won, if that is true,
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: he is too prohibitively stupid to be president.
• 16:48
  Speaker 3: Right?
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: Like, that's not a good argument either.
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: And to how you started this, like, if he is
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: either acquitted or he's not acquitted, but he wins the
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: election and then pardons himself... Oh my God, I.
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: Didn't even think about the fact he could pardon himself.
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: Oh, of course, of course.
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: You're totally right.
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: And so if that happens after what we all saw
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: on TV that day, like, I don't know what happens
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: with this country. Like, we're not a democracy anymore, I
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: don't think.
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: No, no, it would be catastrophic.
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: And I don't think that's an exaggeration.
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: No, it'd be catastrophic.
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: So most Republican voters seem to be supporting Trump despite
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: or because of these indictments, which is probably why we
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: have candidates like DeSantis and Scott who can't even bring
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: themselves to say that trying to overturn an election should
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: disqualify you from being president, let alone land you in prison, right? And,
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: you know, Mike Pence, he didn't want to weigh in
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: on the indictment itself, and before he's been like, I
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: don't know if it's criminalized, or he took that right out.
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: But at least, at least Mike Pence said, of course
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: someone who did this should never be president again. And
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: if you don't want to weigh in on the indictment
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: and the legal process itself, for whatever reason, and there
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: are plenty of good ones, you can at least say,
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: If you are a fucking Republican. Yes, of course. He
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: tried to throw out people's votes. Right. Of course he
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: shouldn't be president again. But they can't do that. We
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: do have Chris Christie, Asa Hutchinson, Will Hurd, and now
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: Mike Pence making that argument. Do you think it could
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: start changing some minds if a few more candidates join in?
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: Or are these guys just going to do the right thing,
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: the ones I just mentioned, and end up getting 1%? No.
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: So here's the problem with all of this is that
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: they were such chicken shits for the past, you know,
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: since since January 6th happened.
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: Since hang Mike Pence was being chanted. It took him
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: if I'm a Republican who is low key MAGA. Right.
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: Like I'm like maybe a little on the fence.
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: MAGA curious.
• 18:43
  Speaker 3: I'm MAGA.
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: I'm MAGA adjacent. I think that to me, I'm like, OK,
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: profiles encourage you came out now that you're a candidate.
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: now that you personally benefit from him having done the
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: wrong thing, right? And so it seems smarmy. It seems like, okay,
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: good for you. I think that for them, I don't
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: know that there's a lot of upside to being honest
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: at this point. I think if someone had taken on
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: Trump a year or two ago, they might have been
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: able to change hearts and minds. But now I think
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: they're just picking up whatever low-hanging fruit there is for
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: them in the fundraising world.
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: I do agree that a lot of this sudden, you know,
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: burst of courage here is self-serving for these folks. You know,
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: and motivations are complex. I could buy that they are
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: ashamed of how they kept quiet in the past. And now,
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: you know what?
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: Right, cool.
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: Not on us to judge.
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: Talk to your therapist.
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: Who knows what's going on in their heads, right? I
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: like the fact that there are some Republicans out there
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: making this case.
• 19:47
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: Because I do think that our attention spans and memories
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: are as short as they've ever been because the Internet
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: has broken our brains. And so there are probably a
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: lot of people who I mean, even me.
• 20:00
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: Like I I'm a political news junkie. I read that
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: indictment and you're like, oh, yeah. A lot of this
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: was in the January 6th committee report. We saw it
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: on TV, but I forgot how bad it is.
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: That's true. That's a really good point.
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: And so I do think if you have a bunch
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: of Republicans and, you know, Bill Barr last night was
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: on CNN and he's like, yeah, this indictment is the
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: right indictment.
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: Here's my question.
• 20:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: Don't you think that the arguments they're making. are more
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: compelling to us than they are Republicans.
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: Oh, for sure.
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: That we're sitting here giving them credit for, you know,
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: a little bit, a smidge, a smidgen, a morsel of credit.
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: But that to people who are maybe not so pro-Biden,
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: they're like, you know, that Chris Christie's got something to say.
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: And he's right about this. And, you know, also worth remembering,
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: all of these people were for the travel ban and
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: everything terrible. And that this president stood up and was like,
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: bleach can cure COVID. And they were silent.
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: I know.
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: So I would like them to remember that, too.
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: I was thinking about that one specifically with Chris Christie
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: as I was listening to his interview with Lovett. Lovett
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: did a great job. Which is terrific. It was terrific.
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: But I was like, wow, what were you thinking when
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: he did the drink bleach to cure COVID thing?
• 21:13
  Speaker 6: Right.
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: Is that something that you like? But no, I take
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: that point for sure. I just think that like there,
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: we talked about this Tuesday, but there's like, we see
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: in the New York Times poll that There's like 37
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: percent of the Republican Party was like Trump ride or die.
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: They like the indictments. They like January 6th.
• 21:33
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: They're like, take my money for your legal. Right.
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: They're like they should have. He should have overturned the election.
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: He won. That's all great. So those people, obviously, their
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: minds are made up. Then there's like a group of
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: I'm not going to vote for Trump. There's like 25
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: percent of the party. Then there's like these this group
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: of persuadable voters in the middle. Right. Who probably have
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: some pretty, in our view, shitty conservative positions on a
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: lot of issues. But may think that like, yeah, you
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: know what? The election was rightfully decided.
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: But here's my question. There is such a delta in
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: polls anyway between where Trump is and where, you know,
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: DeSantis is, for example, that even like I feel like
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: so much would have to change for it to really matter.
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: That's totally right. And it has to. And that change
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: starts with one of these fucking people opening their mouths. Right.
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: Saying something.
• 22:20
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: Right. There is this chicken or egg problem. where if
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: you're Ron DeSantis and you're his dumb strategist, you're sitting
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: around and you're like, you know what? Here's the polls.
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: Here's what people believe about Trump. They think that he
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: was right. They think he won the election. They're behind him.
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: So you can't talk about, you can't criticize him for
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: these indictments because the base will not be with you.
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: And Ron DeSantis is like, well, I want to be president.
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: So of course, I'll follow that. And if everyone does that,
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: then what information are those voters consuming? They're consuming a
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: bunch of people who are like, you know what, Donald,
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: those indictments are trash and Joe Biden's going after Donald
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: Trump and it's a two-tiered system of justice and blah, blah, blah.
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: And so, like, if no one ever says anything because
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: they're worried about the base, then the base is going
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: to continue to think what they think.
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: Well, right, but also the base isn't really going to
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: change what they think.
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, that's true.
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: You know, for someone like DeSantis, I am shocked that
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: he's not trying to go out. They're so.
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: Dancing on the head of a pin with everything they're saying,
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: that it's like, you're not going to get the people
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: who are giving their life savings to Trump so he
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: can pay his lawyers. But if he were honest, he
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: might get some people who are like, you know what?
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: Ron DeSantis believes all the crazy shit I believe, but
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: he's not going to go to jail.
• 23:31
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: Right? Like, don't they want someone... who, like, might not
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: go to jail. Like, if I'm Ron DeSantis, that's my campaign.
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: I'm Trump, but I'm not going to prison. That would be,
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: pay me, Ron DeSantis. That's my strategy.
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: But you are absolutely right that for these cases that
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: they're making now against Trump, to the extent that some
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: Republicans are, for them to carry any weight, it would
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: have been a lot better for those cases to be
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: made right after January 6th, when, you know, a couple
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: of Republican senators voted to convict. And that was about it.
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: And Mitch McConnell said, well, we're not going to vote
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: to impeach because there's the legal system to take care
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: of that. Well, here we are. Here's the legal system
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: taking care of it. I wonder what Mitch McConnell says
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: about that. I wonder what all the other Republicans say
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: about that who are like, oh, let the legal system
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: take care of it. We don't want to impeach him
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: right now. All right. So we have talked on this
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: podcast a few times about the scheduling issues that might
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: arise for a presidential candidate who may be facing three
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: or four criminal trials in the But you are the
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: perfect person to ask about this since you are the
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: mastermind behind several presidential campaigns. How do you go about
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: planning a campaign when it's possible that the candidate might
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: be in court as a criminal defendant for weeks or
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: even months? Like, what do those scheduling meetings sound like?
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: Favs. Okay, you and I have been in so many
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: planning meetings together. My eyes are tearing up right now
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: just at how funny these meetings would be. Let's start
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: top line before we get into mechanics.
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: Okay, the planning meetings. Imagine, my eyes are tearing, if
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: you and I were sitting around a meeting and we're like, okay, look,
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: Obama's on trial. And, okay, here are the beats for
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: the day. All right, what's the walk-in picture look like? Like,
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: what's the perp walk? How are we going to get
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: him in through a basement? How, okay, they're going to
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: be releasing the sketch artist photos. How are we responding?
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: Is he going to do a press conference after the trial,
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: after the date concludes? How are we going to raise
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: money off of this? Like, okay, these are the things,
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: like the macro questions that you're answering.
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: And then— Is there going to be an OTR outside
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: the courtroom somewhere?
• 25:38
  Speaker 3: Are we going to.
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: Stop by and throw paper towels at people who don't
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: need them? You know, like, what are we doing? And
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: then you get into, like, how the campaign actually functions.
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: And the thing about Trump that I think is so
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: sad for him, really— is that something that will be
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: so critically important to him will be surrogates, right? Now,
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: loathe as I am to say it, the best surrogate
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: he ever had was Ivanka, right? Well, she's done the
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: Homer Simpson, like, backed into the bush, like, I never
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: did anything, I'm not political, blah, blah, blah. But then
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: you have, you know, you have I am the eldest boy,
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: and you have I am the lesser eldest boy, and
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: they're just, like, not that persuasive. But then for sexual Republicans,
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: if you're doing the surrogates, it's like, who are the
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: people who'd really go out there and walk the plank
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: for him, right? You've got Matt Gaetz, you've got Marjorie
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: Taylor Greene, but like even sort of like kind of
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: intense Republicans think they're fucking awful. So who's out there
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: making the case for him when the whole point, right,
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: is this period between now and election day is like,
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: how are you persuading It feels like he has a
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: real ceiling, right? It's going to be incredibly hard for
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: him to get past. And as a campaign, who are
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: the people who can help you bring another fringe into
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: the tent? And I think that they don't have that.
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: So it's sad that Ivanka ditched him.
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a great point because it's funny as you
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: were saying that we think about surrogates first. Yeah. because
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: we have run democratic campaigns and we have run those
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: campaigns without a giant propaganda media machine on our side.
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: So I do think when you ask that question, I
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: don't think, I think all the people you mentioned are
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: like sort of, you know, but he's going to have
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: Fox and he's going to have Ben Shapiro and he's
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: going to have the entire conservative movement and the right-wing
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: media machine on his side. And what they're going to
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: be doing is Poor Donald Trump was persecuted in court
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: again today. Right. And there's Joe Biden and he stumbled
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: over a word and he's too old to be president. Meanwhile,
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: his Department of Justice is like attacking Donald Trump. That's
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: probably what they'll do. The timing thing is interesting because
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: I'm trying to figure out like, I guess the best
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: case scenario for Donald Trump is that he wraps up
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: the nomination in February after South Carolina or Super Tuesday
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: in early March. And then that period, which is sort of,
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: I don't want to call it the dead period because
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: we were all very busy during that period all the time.
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: But there's a period between then and the conventions in
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: the summer where the campaign's a little bit quieter. And
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: then he gets all the trials done in that period,
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: I guess.
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: But it's like, how does this happen? You know, like,
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: are they talking to the presidential commission on debates? Like, hey,
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: so let's work out the dates provided he agrees to
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: a debate, of course.
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, may not.
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: But are they sitting around being like, OK, well, imagine
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: not even the Trump campaign, but like the Presidential Commission
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: on Debates being like, OK, guys, so we've got Trump's
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: in court these days.
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: What about the RNC? What about the convention?
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: It is.
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: How are they going to plan a Republican convention if
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: the guy who's going to give the nominating speech is
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: in court that day?
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: Well, the funny thing, think about it. It's like, are
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: they going to? Just be like, OK, planes waiting at Dulles.
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: We're flying him straight. He will literally coming to you
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: live from the courthouse steps potentially, you know, for his speech. Actually,
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: it's kind of a genius idea.
• 29:09
  Speaker 3: I know. I know.
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: Well, you and I were talking about when he when
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: he was arraigned in Florida. Yeah. And then he went
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: to Versailles afterwards, which is a very famous Cuban bakery restaurant.
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: And he did an OTR, which is an off the
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: record stop, meaning that they don't announce it to the
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: press so that you can go in if you're the
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: candidate with less security. And we were both like, this
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: is bullshit. But also as professionals, as political professionals, pretty smart.
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: I was into it.
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: And I do think what he's going to. do, and
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: he's going to have to figure out how to calibrate this,
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: but he's going to do the whole, like, go to
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: a rally after his day in court and be like,
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: I was just there fighting the deep state and there
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: I was. And look, that's going to work with his people.
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: In a general election setting, or like, rando normie voters
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: who just casually turn into the news going to be like, okay,
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: there he is in court and now he's doing a rally,
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: joking about his court thing. How is that going to
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: land with them?
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: Like normie voters, as you call them, I think they
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: kind of start getting real down to brass tacks.
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: Like, could you say in the fall?
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: I think this is when people start asking questions, you know,
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: at the grocery store among their neighbors, like, can he
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: be president from jail?
• 30:21
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: And is that a good idea?
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: That seemed bad.
• 30:24
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: You know?
• 30:24
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: And I don't know that it's I don't think that
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: that argument or that line of questioning gets people to
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: vote for Biden. I think it just keeps people from voting.
• 30:32
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: Well, that's well, let's talk about that. So our buddy
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: Dan is on vacation, but he's still writing message boxes.
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: I got my message box in my inbox and I
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: was like, go on vacation, dude. But then I was
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: glad he wrote it because he always clarifies my thoughts.
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: He's on a family vacation. The kids are there. I
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: think he's got Holly's parents and his parents there. He's
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: got a lot going on. He's writing message boxes still.
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: God love him. His latest argues that not only will
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: this indictment hurt Donald Trump in a general election, but
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: that it will hurt the entire Republican Party as well,
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: basically because this indictment is different. The documents didn't really
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: implicate the rest of the party. The hush money didn't
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: really implicate the rest of the party. Those were like
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: Donald Trump crimes. This is one where quite a few
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: Republican senators and members of Congress who voted to overturn
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: the results as well and are still defending him. What
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: do you think of Dan's argument? Are you as... optimistic
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: as Dan famously is.
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: I was like, Dan had some Mai Tais before he
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: wrote this. No, I'm just kidding, Dan. No, I think
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: that he is right that the big lie is an
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: anvil around the neck of these people. I think that
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: this hurts in general. I think that Trump suffers less
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: than House, Senate and local candidates, Republican do, because I
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: think that If you bring things down, like, look, I love,
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: I go to the local debates up in my area.
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: I love to listen to a good town hall.
• 32:01
  Speaker 6: Nice.
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: And I think that things are still local-ish. And I
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: think that when people start debating local issues and, you know,
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: people have, a Democrat has a good answer and maybe
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: a Republican has a good answer. But then a local
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: news broadcaster asks a Republican, so tell me, we all
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: saw people storm the Capitol. Were they really on vacation there?
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: I think that it gets harder and harder to answer
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: those questions with a straight face when you remove the
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: questions from a Trump versus Biden on Fox News debate.
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: You know, I think that locally it gets harder and
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: harder for them to answer questions and they just start,
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: you know, I think it starts falling apart.
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: A little bit. Yeah, I have been of two minds
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: on this because I had this experience leading up to
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: the midterms in 22 where where I did all these
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: focus groups for the wilderness.
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: Right, right, right, right.
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: And I sat down with all these voters of, like,
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: different backgrounds, beliefs, demographics, all over the place. And they were,
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: you know, some independent swing voters, Democrats. And I would
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: always ask about what bothers them, and they'd talk about inflation,
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: they'd talk about health care, all the issues that you
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: would expect. And then I'd ask about, you know, what
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: is the media paying too much attention to, and what
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: are they not paying enough attention to? And too much
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: attention to, they always said January 6th stuff. And there
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: was this big thing about like, we got to move
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: past that. We're tired of that. So I was like, oh, God,
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: we got to really talk about economic issues. And then
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: turns out in the fall, you know, the Democrats, the
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: one six committee and President Biden himself made an issue
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: of defending democracy. And they made Trump's behavior an issue,
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: even though he wasn't on the ballot. And they and
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: they made the election a choice between. big lie believers,
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: election deniers, and people who are defending democracy. And it worked.
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: It did work.
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: And now look, how did it work? Abortion was obviously
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: a huge factor in that race. So maybe that did
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: it in a lot of different places too. But there's
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: a lot of data, and Dan puts it in the
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: message box, that big lie believers, election deniers, fared worse
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: than non-election denying Republicans in that midterm. So I start
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: to wonder, I do think that there Most people in
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: this country probably do want us to move on from
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: January 6th and don't want to relitigate the entire 2020
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: election in 2024. But with that said, if you are
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: reminding them all the time of what happened, like the
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: January 6th committee did, when tens of billions of people
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: tuned in and now we have a trial and that's
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: in everyone's face, then maybe that does have an effect.
• 34:37
  Speaker 8: Maybe.
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: We'll see. I mean, the one the one variable I
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: think that's different than 20 than the midterms 2022 is
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: that it's this is now literally about Trump's honor.
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: This is about like, will Trump like in like to
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: his real hardcore base people is like, you know, when
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: it becomes Trump versus Biden, I think it gets a
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: little different. But it's the same thing. It's like, yeah,
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: like the local it is hard for them to defend it.
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: It is easier. It's not easier for them, but it
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: is like. I do think that when you have Trump
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: himself on television, and this is about, like, a lie
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: he has fed them, and this is the final moment
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: they can show their fidelity to him, maybe it's a
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: little different. But I do think that Dan's right. It's
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: probably better for everybody than it is worse.
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I do think for, again, the normie voter
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: who consumes headlines once in a while, scrolls through their
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: phone once in a while, but is not paying attention
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: to the news, for those voters... It really is about like, look,
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: there's all these indictments. Donald Trump's in trouble. Is it political?
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: What is it? The January 6th indictment, I do think,
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: is maybe the easiest to explain and the highest stakes.
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: Totally agree.
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: Because we were all there. We all saw it unfold.
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: It was a big, horrible moment for the country. And
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: I think that, even more so than the documents case,
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: which I think is a pretty open and shut case
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: in itself, and certainly the hush money case, that is...
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: I do.
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: And I also think we still have Georgia to contend with. And,
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: you know, I think that is things like one of
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: the things that I thought was so compelling is like
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: Rudy Giuliani saying yes, that he defamed the the two
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: election workers whose lives were uprooted. And I do think
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: that for the normie voter, they're like, that's not cool.
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: That was, you know, I like wept.
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: During that part of the hearing. I wept. It was
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: devastating because we know what happens if we say something
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: and the MAGA get upset.
• 36:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: That is nothing compared to what they faced.
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: And like you can only, yeah, you can only, you know,
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: amplify in your brain what it was like for them
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: living through that, still living through it today.
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: So Trump's potential opponent in 2024, President Biden, has said
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: nothing about this indictment or any of the indictments. He's
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: on vacation. He was off to watch Oppenheimer when the
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: news broke. That was funny. And yesterday he biked past
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: the press pool and waved. White House put out a
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: statement referring all questions to the Justice Department. Democratic leaders
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: in Congress put out some statements. They called the charges
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: serious and consequential. We saw something from Schumer, from Jeffries.
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: And Politico has reported, they reported this back in June,
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: I think, that the president has ordered the DNC and
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: the reelect to not talk about the indictments. Obviously, Biden
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: himself can't be out there commenting on a case that
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: his own Justice Department is bringing against his potential opponent.
• 37:33
  Speaker 3: Totally.
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: Stipulated. But do you think the whole party should stay
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: quiet about the fact that the Republican nominee is a
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: criminal defendant?
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: Okay, Fabs, I hope the Democratic Party is listening to
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: us right now.
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: Okay, great.
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: Because I have some advice. So here's what I would do.
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: I think that that they need to keep it tight, right?
• 37:53
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: Don't opine. I don't care if you're a fucking lawyer.
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: Don't go be lawyerly. Don't talk about what's happening. Don't
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: talk about the machinations of everything. I think that if
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: I am a Democrat running, I refer to Donald Trump
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: as Donald Trump, comma, who has been indicted on 78
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: criminal charges, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But like, that's it.
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: You keep going. Just the facts. Just the facts, nothing else.
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: Because the biggest problem I think is You know, I
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: know we have social media, but I still love local TV.
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: And if you have a soundbite, do you want the
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: soundbite being, if you're on local TV, do you want
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: the soundbite being you opining on Trump's indictments? Or do
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: you want people explaining Bidenomics? You know, and it's a choice.
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: That's the choice. And so I think that they should
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: not be out there. I don't think people should be.
• 38:43
  Speaker 3: I hate personally.
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: When you get the fundraising emails that are like, Trump's
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: been indicted. Give me money.
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: Shut up. No, I don't think that's it.
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: That's not helpful. I don't think any of that's helpful.
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: So I agree. I think people should largely be silent
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: on it except for just the facts. He is indicted. Like,
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: that's it. He's indicted.
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think I agree with that. I think it's
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: just the facts. I also think I think that the
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: Democrats need to make the case that they have made before.
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: These indictments ever happened. Right. Which was still a pretty strong,
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: sharp case about Donald Trump. So like the New York
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: Times today ran a story about this and it says,
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: you know, Biden campaign officials and allies believe they can
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: focus on topics with a more direct impact on the
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: lives of voters, economic issues, abortion access and extreme weather
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: without explicitly advocating.
• 39:30
  Speaker 3: Mr.
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: Trump's issues. So again, I am have always been the
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: person who's like, you got to talk about what matters
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: to people's lives, what impacts them. So like, of course,
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: but we know you win a reelection as an incumbent
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: if you make it a choice between you and your opponent.
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: And if it's a referendum on you, even if the
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: economy is getting better, even if people are cranky, they
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: don't want to do a referendum.
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: And they don't feel like the economy is getting better yet.
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: And you know what? Just voters for the last decade
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: now have just been cranky. Right. And they're cranky towards
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: people who are in power, Republican or Democrat. Again, these
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: are the normies. The normies, right. So I get that
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: you have to talk about those issues and you have
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: to make the election a choice that is about those issues.
• 40:14
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: I also get, and Dan has made this point too,
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: that like, look, we don't have to bring up the
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: indictments because it's going to be all over TV all
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: the time. And of course it is. It absolutely is.
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: But we also can't trust the media to tell the
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: story about the indictments in the most effective, compelling way.
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: Because what they're going to do is, again, that New
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: York Time headline, and I don't want to beat up
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: the story because the story was quite good, but the
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: headline was like, is it free speech or is it
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: overturning the election? And that shit's going to happen. Trump's
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: defense is, is going to get into the news cycle.
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: And so I think Democrats at some point, maybe not now,
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: at some point are going to have to make a case.
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: And if I'm Joe Biden, I think you can go
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: out there and be like, I'm not commenting on any investigation.
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: That's not my role. But I will say what I
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: have said many times before. Donald Trump is a reckless liar.
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely.
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: Who tried to throw out your votes in order to
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: stay in power. He is a threat to democracy. He
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: is dangerous. And he should not be president again.
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: That's the truth.
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: That is the truth. And Biden said that in the
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: fall of 2022.
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: He's been saying that for a long time.
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: And he should keep saying it.
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: And he should keep saying it. And I think that
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: it is more about some of the people who aren't
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: the most, who aren't the most sort of, you know,
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: strict messengers.
• 41:34
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: You know, I think that as a rule to people
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: running saying do not make Trump's indictment the center of your,
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: the focus of your campaign is correct.
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: Oh, yeah. Because, you know, the. You know, the comms
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: director of the Arizona State Democratic Party is going to
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: be like popping off a tweet that's like, lock them up,
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: lock them up, and then we're all fucked.
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: Exactly.
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: I don't know who that is, by the way.
• 41:56
  Speaker 3: We're just joking.
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: We're just making fun.
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: The North Carolina, whoever it is. Any state.
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: All the states. But it is.
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: Some field organizer in Iowa is going to do it.
• 42:04
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: Like, I just think that if I'm running right now
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: and I'm a Democrat... I'm not releasing a press statement
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: every time an indictment has come down. I am not
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: sending emails that are flooding people's inboxes with just that. Like,
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: I think it is fine to talk about it when asked,
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: and I think you have to make the contrast and
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: remind people that this is very bad. But I think
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: that it should not be this, like, you know, when
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: you first land in Las Vegas and the lights are, like, blinding. Like,
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: they can't do that to our inboxes with all of their, like,
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: Trump was indicted again. Here's the, like. You know, just
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: let it be. Just keep it straight.
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: Just keep it straight.
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And make and make the larger case. Yeah, I
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: agree with that. The Republicans have made a decision to
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: call Joe Biden a criminal, even though all their investigations
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: haven't found any evidence that the president did anything wrong,
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: let alone illegal. He does have a son who a
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: Trump appointed prosecutor in Biden's own Justice Department charged with crimes. Right. And,
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: you know, he may have said hi to a few
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: of Hunter's shady business associates.
• 43:04
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: But the January 6th indictment has seemed to make Trump
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: and Republicans in Congress even more determined to do the
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: Biden crime family thing so that, you know, I guess
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: swing voters, normie voters will think both of them are corrupt.
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: Trump and Biden. Does that worry you or do you
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: think voters can tell the difference between the Hunter stuff
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: and the Trump stuff?
• 43:25
  Speaker 2: Haven't people realized that Democrats aren't sophisticated enough to commit crimes?
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: We can't commit crimes.
• 43:34
  Speaker 3: It's like too hard.
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: We're too earnest. We're like, no. I mean, look, I
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: think that I think the Hunter Biden stuff has been
• 43:41
  Speaker 2: around long enough that it's baked in. You know, I
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: think that for the most part, even look, if again,
• 43:48
  Speaker 2: if you're a hardcore MAGA and you're nothing's going to
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: change your mind, you already believe what they're trying to sell.
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: It's fine. But for the normies, I think you kind
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: of look and you're like, I think Hunter's maybe had
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: a troubled life.
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: And there is nothing about Joe Biden that says he
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: is– there is not a whiff of criminality around him.
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: And so I think that more than anything, it's maybe
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: kind of– it's sad, you know, and it's hard. And
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: I think that– but I think in terms of like
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: trying to convince people– that Hunter, you know, that this
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: is like the Biden mob family. I don't think that
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: that works. I think that the story's been around too
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: long and people largely know everything there is to know.
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And look, I am cognizant of like how this
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: started with Hillary and where it ended up, which is like,
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: what are you grilling her about Benghazi for? It wasn't
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: her fault. And then that leads to the emails and
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: the emails become something and it just grows and grows
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: and grows and grows and grows. So I get that
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: that could happen. And so that that part does worry
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: me that just like the steady drumbeat of saying it
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: over and over and over is their strategy of keeping
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: something in the news that's bad about Biden. But I
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: do agree that it is largely baked in. And, you know, they're.
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: Their craziest charge, right, which is Joe Biden took a
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: bribe is like complete bullshit. No evidence for that whatsoever.
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: Wouldn't he have a better car?
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: You know, the guy puts out his fucking tax returns
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: every single year. He's taking the train home to Dell.
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: What are you talking about? He took a five million dollar.
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: That's crazy.
• 45:22
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 45:23
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: If the best they can do is that Hunter was
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: clearly out there trading on his family name to make money,
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: which it sounds like he certainly was. Yes. And that.
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: Every once in a while, he had his dad say
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: hi to some guys and Biden didn't even know what
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: was going on. Like, was that is that like, yeah,
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: that's it. But again. That Donald Trump tried to overturn
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: the election. What the fuck are we talking about?
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: This isn't apples to apples.
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: He literally tried to throw out the votes, stay in power.
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: He had a fucking guy that he just appointed as
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: attorney general say like, oh, that's okay. We have the
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: Insurrection Act. If people protest the fact that we are
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: not allowing for the peaceful transfer of power, we'll just
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: use the military to put them down. Mike Pence, you'll
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: get hung if you don't fucking throw away the votes.
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: What are we talking about? There's no comparison.
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: There's no comparison.
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: It is.
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: It's silly season. Haven't heard that one in a while.
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: So either way, this is going to be another close
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: race that will probably take years off our lives. We
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: talked about the New York Times-CNN Republican primary poll on
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: Tuesday's show. Then they released their first general election poll.
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: Trump 43, Biden 43, tie race. The other 14 percent
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: said they would vote for someone else or wouldn't vote
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: at all. Yikes. What's your take on the poll? Any
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: numbers stick out to you?
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: OK, so I thought it was so funny we were
• 46:43
  Speaker 2: going to talk about this because, you know, for as
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: long as we've known each other, I'm like bad polls,
• 46:46
  Speaker 2: polls or lies. And that unlike you nuts, I am
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: not super great at reading crosstabs, but I did just
• 46:55
  Speaker 2: for you. OK, so here's what I think. Here are
• 46:59
  Speaker 2: the things that stuck out to me. One, a majority
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: of Americans believe Trump committed serious federal crimes and is
• 47:06
  Speaker 2: a threat to democracy.
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: That's helpful.
• 47:08
  Speaker 2: I'll take it.
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: That's good. And probably why he's sitting at 43%.
• 47:12
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: I mean, not as great. The economy actually is getting better,
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: but Biden's approval is still at 39%. Yeah. Room for
• 47:19
  Speaker 2: us to grow because the truth is the economy is
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: getting better. Now, 18 to 29-year-olds stress me the fuck out.
• 47:27
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: OK, this was what was not good. So the one
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: one of the crosstabs that blew my mind is that, quote,
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: if you are a this was from the poll. If
• 47:35
  Speaker 2: you are a Democrat and the election for Democratic nominee
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: for president were today, respondents aged 18 to 29 said
• 47:43
  Speaker 2: as follows. 34 percent said they would vote for Biden. 34,
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: a third of 18 to 29 year olds. 27 percent
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: said Marianne Williamson. 13% said RFK Jr., and 26% said
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: they didn't know. Now, upside, seems like we got more
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: ground to mine there. Okay, that's good. But in general,
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: the thing that scared me a little bit about the
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: poll is that I saw RFK Jr. doing better than
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: I think I would have ever thought at this point, right? Like,
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: that was concerning.
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: I will say that the two focus groups of voters
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: that I did for the Wilderness last time that most
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: concerned me were the young voters I spoke to in
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: Orange County and the youngish black voters that I spoke
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: to in Atlanta. They were like in their late 20s, 30s.
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: The Orange County group was a mixed race and it
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: was like, you know, probably 20s. And they're just, it's
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: not anything specifically against Biden. They're just so sick of politics.
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: They don't think it's speaking to them. They don't think
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: it's improving their lives. They're very worried about climate, abortion access,
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: rent more than anything else, owning a home, making a living.
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: And when they talk about politicians, they talk about Biden,
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: they talk about him with everyone else who just seems old.
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: And it's like, he's old. We got Trump. We don't
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: like Trump. We got all these other old people in
• 49:13
  Speaker 1: Congress and there's no new generation. And so I can,
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: in that crosstab, yeah it would not surprise me if
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: they're like a lot of young people are looking around
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: like what are my other options right the question is
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: because then the midterms happened and youth turnout was great
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: we had a great margin among young people in the
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: midterms so the question is if it comes down to
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: biden and trump will they be like oh I still
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: think Biden's too old and I'm not that excited, but
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: Trump is scary and I'll pull the lever for Biden.
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: That's my hope. But that's why fucking Cornel.
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: West on the Green.
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: Party and this no labels bullshit is so scary.
• 49:48
  Speaker 2: That no labels stuff.
• 49:50
  Speaker 6: Go.
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: Stop.
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: Stop trying to make fetch happen. Nobody wants you. You're
• 49:57
  Speaker 2: raising money to pay yourselves.
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: It's terrifying.
• 50:01
  Speaker 2: Joe Manchin, boy. Come on now. Just because West Virginia
• 50:05
  Speaker 2: doesn't love you that much anymore doesn't mean you need
• 50:06
  Speaker 2: to inflict yourself on the rest of us.
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: I saw some story today that he wants Schumer to
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: throw some money into West Virginia for his campaign to
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: see if he can get his numbers up because he
• 50:19
  Speaker 1: wants to see if he can win in West Virginia.
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: Because if he thinks he can win, then he'll back
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: off maybe. That guy's... He's a piece of work.
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: He's not helpful.
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: Like you said, Biden's numbers have improved slightly since the
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: last poll, but he's still 39 percent. He's getting about
• 50:35
  Speaker 1: 87 percent of his 2020 voters.
• 50:38
  Speaker 6: Right.
• 50:38
  Speaker 3: Which is great.
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: But losing the rest to he's losing two percent to Trump,
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: but Trump's losing two percent of his voters to Biden.
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: So that's a wash. But he's losing some of his
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: 2020 voters to the I'm not voting for either of
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: them crowd, which is the danger. And that mostly seems
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: about it's either about age or the economy. Knowing all that,
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: everything we've talked about, if you were mapping out this
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: re-election campaign for Joe Biden, what would it look like?
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: What's your advice to the campaign here?
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: Because people love advice.
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: I know they love advice from us podcasters.
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: They're going to be like, okay, why don't you come
• 51:09
  Speaker 2: back to D.C. and do some work?
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, why don't you sit in these fucking three-hour meetings
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: with us?
• 51:12
  Speaker 2: And to that I say, we gave.
• 51:14
  Speaker 3: It the office.
• 51:14
  Speaker 1: Instead of doing your 30-minute pod and then peacing out.
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: Listen, I can't help but tan and looking good. Okay,
• 51:20
  Speaker 2: so if I'm Biden, look. Okay. I think that one,
• 51:26
  Speaker 2: he will always have the advantage of being more spry
• 51:29
  Speaker 2: than Trump. You know, like the age argument when you
• 51:31
  Speaker 2: actually put them up on stage together, I think falls
• 51:34
  Speaker 2: apart a bit. Right. So I think that's good. I
• 51:37
  Speaker 2: think that he needs an optimistic but realistic message. That's like,
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: you know what? Here's where we were. Here's where we are.
• 51:43
  Speaker 2: But I know we still have more to do. We
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: have more to go. I think like what you were
• 51:49
  Speaker 2: saying before, um, You know, the fact that the 18
• 51:53
  Speaker 2: to 29-year-olds are a little uncertain right now, I think
• 51:58
  Speaker 2: they have to figure out what's attracting them to Marianne
• 52:01
  Speaker 2: and RFK Jr. And, you know, I'd love to think
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: that if, you know, Taylor Swift endorsed Biden, we'd all
• 52:09
  Speaker 2: be fine. But I think they're tougher than that. The
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: planet's on fire. They don't have good-paying jobs. The gig
• 52:15
  Speaker 2: economy is crushing them. I do think that Biden... has
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: a lot more ability to persuade than Trump does, right?
• 52:22
  Speaker 2: So if I'm Biden, what's his strength? He's not someone
• 52:25
  Speaker 2: who comes alive on a stage in front of a crowd.
• 52:28
  Speaker 2: That's not his vibe. And that's fine. But they should
• 52:31
  Speaker 2: find ways that real people He should go out and
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: talk to normie voters.
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: Art piece.
• 52:37
  Speaker 2: And the real people, this is, it's like we're writing
• 52:40
  Speaker 2: for an episode of Veep right now. He should go out,
• 52:42
  Speaker 2: find the real people, and they should find ways to
• 52:45
  Speaker 2: let the country see those conversations, right? I don't think
• 52:49
  Speaker 2: it's necessarily, it could be a town hall. Town halls
• 52:51
  Speaker 2: are okay. But you do find that then you have
• 52:55
  Speaker 2: the person who's asking the question, sometimes a little performative,
• 52:58
  Speaker 2: and they want to stick it to them or they
• 53:00
  Speaker 2: want to, you know. But I think figuring out ways
• 53:02
  Speaker 2: to show those conversations is, You know, Trump will always
• 53:05
  Speaker 2: go have his big rallies, but those aren't going to
• 53:07
  Speaker 2: persuade people and they're only going to be on Fox News.
• 53:10
  Speaker 2: And he can only do those big rallies in certain cities.
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: And those people are already voting for him.
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: And also, I think those big rallies sort of in
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: many respects reinforce Trump's worst instincts because he's getting all
• 53:22
  Speaker 1: this adulation from the crowd. And that's when he says
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: his craziest shit. And then he's like he's getting into it.
• 53:27
  Speaker 1: He's getting lost. And then he's like way off message.
• 53:29
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: So I do think those are not as helpful.
• 53:31
  Speaker 2: No, but I think that like Biden has to just
• 53:33
  Speaker 2: look like he's hustling, that he is, you know, taking
• 53:36
  Speaker 2: no vote for granted. You know, as Plouffe would say
• 53:39
  Speaker 2: that he's low to the ground, you know, that it's
• 53:41
  Speaker 2: like this real sort of guerrilla campaign, like person to person,
• 53:43
  Speaker 2: door to door. That's what I would do if I
• 53:46
  Speaker 2: were him. It's like, look, the world is so problematic
• 53:50
  Speaker 2: right now. And you have a lot of people out
• 53:52
  Speaker 2: there who need empathy. And Joe Biden has so much
• 53:56
  Speaker 2: empathy and and many members of his cabinet are empathetic
• 54:01
  Speaker 2: and helpful. And so I think that using all of
• 54:03
  Speaker 2: that in contrast to a person who thinks there is
• 54:06
  Speaker 2: only one victim on this planet and it is him.
• 54:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: You know, and so I think that that showcasing, you know,
• 54:12
  Speaker 2: when we worked for Obama. empathy was always one of
• 54:15
  Speaker 2: our greatest weapons. And so I think that for him,
• 54:18
  Speaker 2: that is something that could really work to his advantage.
• 54:22
  Speaker 2: I think there are a lot of people in this
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: country who don't feel heard or seen. And if he
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: can figure that out. You know, someone else who I
• 54:29
  Speaker 2: think has always been good about making people feel heard
• 54:31
  Speaker 2: and seen is Bernie. You know, get Bernie out there. Like,
• 54:34
  Speaker 2: take everybody, listen to people. I mean, look, like Bernie
• 54:36
  Speaker 2: and Fran Drescher doing their, like, their, like, SAG-AFTRA, you know, like,
• 54:41
  Speaker 2: crossover episode. It's just a reminder that, like, you know,
• 54:44
  Speaker 2: Bernie does understand the plight of working people. And I
• 54:48
  Speaker 2: think that that's, as much as we as the party
• 54:50
  Speaker 2: can get that out there from now until Election Day
• 54:53
  Speaker 2: is vitally important.
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: I'm so glad you said that because that's what I've
• 54:57
  Speaker 1: been thinking, too, is that just like we remember the best. Look,
• 55:01
  Speaker 1: I was not I was not a big like Biden
• 55:05
  Speaker 1: supporter in the primary. I love Joe Biden. I've always
• 55:07
  Speaker 1: loved Joe Biden. But like I was looking at other candidates.
• 55:10
  Speaker 1: But then the moments in that primary when he would
• 55:12
  Speaker 1: like give someone a hug.
• 55:14
  Speaker 3: Oh, my God.
• 55:14
  Speaker 1: Connect with someone at a town hall. You're like, this
• 55:17
  Speaker 1: is a good, decent human. Totally. And that. was his
• 55:21
  Speaker 1: best contrast with Donald Trump in 2020, and I think
• 55:24
  Speaker 1: it remains so in 2024. And it's harder, right, now
• 55:29
  Speaker 1: that he's president, to, like, go do those events. What
• 55:32
  Speaker 1: do you think about that? Because, like, we know what
• 55:34
  Speaker 1: a reelect is. We were both in 2012 riding around
• 55:36
  Speaker 1: on Air Force One with Obama. It's not like you
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: can just pop in somewhere and, like, you know, hug someone.
• 55:42
  Speaker 2: Well, it's like, look, this is– I'm going to say something.
• 55:46
  Speaker 2: It's not super popular.
• 55:47
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 55:48
  Speaker 2: I think there was always such a phenomenon around Obama
• 55:51
  Speaker 2: that it was hard for us to do those things.
• 55:54
  Speaker 2: I do think that in some ways Biden has a
• 55:56
  Speaker 2: smaller footprint, which will greatly benefit him, you know, in
• 56:00
  Speaker 2: this next stage of the campaign. Because I do think
• 56:04
  Speaker 2: that even so much, even if it's like they have
• 56:07
  Speaker 2: their social media team, right? All you need is an
• 56:10
  Speaker 2: iPhone to catch Biden having private conversations.
• 56:13
  Speaker 3: Not private.
• 56:13
  Speaker 2: I don't want to exploit anybody. But having those one-on-one conversations.
• 56:17
  Speaker 2: that aren't these, you know, in an arena with bright lights,
• 56:20
  Speaker 2: which makes even me nervous, right? Like if I wanted
• 56:23
  Speaker 2: to ask Joe Biden a question, I might trip over
• 56:25
  Speaker 2: my words. And so I think that there are ways
• 56:28
  Speaker 2: to set moments like that up that remind people, shit,
• 56:32
  Speaker 2: he's just a good guy. Like, and not just, I
• 56:35
  Speaker 2: don't mean like, well, let's just let grandpa. I mean,
• 56:37
  Speaker 2: we all know he's fucking smart and that he can
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: do the job. But I think that for people who
• 56:41
  Speaker 2: feel like the world is passing them by, I think
• 56:44
  Speaker 2: Joe Biden's the only person who can remind them That
• 56:47
  Speaker 2: he sees them. Yeah, I think that's... And that he's
• 56:49
  Speaker 2: fighting for them.
• 56:50
  Speaker 1: I think that's great advice, Alyssa.
• 56:51
  Speaker 2: Thanks so much.
• 56:52
  Speaker 1: I hope everyone's listening. All right, when we come back,
• 56:54
  Speaker 1: Hallie Kiefer joins us for another round of Well, Well, Well,
• 56:58
  Speaker 1: Everyone's a Fucking Lawyer All of a Sudden. Okay, we're back.
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: Before we go, Hallie Kiefer is here. And she is
• 57:17
  Speaker 1: ready to walk us through some of the best takes
• 57:22
  Speaker 1: over the last couple days since this indictment has hit. Hallie?
• 57:25
  Speaker 8: Congratulations. I'm sorry, gentle man and gentle woman.
• 57:29
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much.
• 57:29
  Speaker 3: You did it again.
• 57:31
  Speaker 8: Time to wrap this up again. Pod Save America got
• 57:34
  Speaker 8: Trump indicted again.
• 57:35
  Speaker 3: No, no, it was you guys.
• 57:36
  Speaker 2: You guys did it.
• 57:37
  Speaker 3: Just like you did it twice before.
• 57:38
  Speaker 1: We got him.
• 57:39
  Speaker 3: That's right.
• 57:40
  Speaker 8: Donald Trump is maybe hypothetically going to see some repercussions
• 57:43
  Speaker 8: for some of his actions at some point in the future.
• 57:46
  Speaker 8: And I personally get to feel less bad about all
• 57:48
  Speaker 8: those soaking wet document boxes I have in my bathroom, okay?
• 57:52
  Speaker 8: There are no classified documents in those bad boys, mostly
• 57:55
  Speaker 8: just old cover letters.
• 57:56
  Speaker 3: Remember cover letters?
• 57:58
  Speaker 1: That's so weird.
• 57:59
  Speaker 3: Remember the rule of law?
• 58:01
  Speaker 8: Anyway, what better way to celebrate Trump's triple crown than
• 58:04
  Speaker 8: with a game we're calling, we've called it this before,
• 58:07
  Speaker 8: now we're calling it again, well, well, well, looks like
• 58:09
  Speaker 8: everyone's a fucking lawyer all of a sudden. The way
• 58:13
  Speaker 8: this game works, you tell me who wrote this tweet,
• 58:15
  Speaker 8: which I'm about to read, about Trump's arraignment.
• 58:17
  Speaker 3: Was it a legal expert or was it just some
• 58:19
  Speaker 3: fucking guy?
• 58:22
  Speaker 8: You will receive a bonus point if you could correctly
• 58:24
  Speaker 8: guess the profession of the person who tweeted it.
• 58:26
  Speaker 3: Oh, wow. Are y'all ready? Okay.
• 58:28
  Speaker 1: So ready.
• 58:30
  Speaker 8: Biden's DOJ is now criminalizing the First Amendment and anyone
• 58:35
  Speaker 8: who dares question the results of an election. Now, was
• 58:39
  Speaker 8: that a legal expert or just some fucking guy?
• 58:41
  Speaker 2: Some fucking guy.
• 58:43
  Speaker 1: I feel like I'm sad to think it was a
• 58:45
  Speaker 1: legal expert.
• 58:46
  Speaker 8: No, it's just a fucking guy. Congressman Wesley Hunt.
• 58:50
  Speaker 3: Wait, you didn't.
• 58:51
  Speaker 2: Let me pick. I was going to say I knew
• 58:53
  Speaker 2: they were a member of Congress.
• 58:55
  Speaker 3: Well, I have great news because we have some more
• 58:57
  Speaker 3: of them. Okay, great.
• 58:59
  Speaker 8: Apparently now it's a crime to make statements challenging election results.
• 59:03
  Speaker 8: I mean, if a prosecutor decides those statements aren't true. Yeah, again,
• 59:07
  Speaker 8: that's how law works. When should we expect indictments? of
• 59:10
  Speaker 8: the Democrat politicians who falsely claimed Russia hacked the 2016 election?
• 59:14
  Speaker 3: Was that a legal expert? Was that just some fucking guy?
• 59:17
  Speaker 1: I know this one.
• 59:17
  Speaker 3: Go ahead.
• 59:18
  Speaker 1: That's some fucking guy.
• 59:19
  Speaker 3: And which guy was it?
• 59:20
  Speaker 1: That's some fucking guy named Marco Rubio.
• 59:22
  Speaker 3: Damn! Little Marco. Little Marco.
• 59:26
  Speaker 1: Little Marco. Just debasing himself yet again.
• 59:28
  Speaker 3: And it is.
• 59:28
  Speaker 8: Funny to hear them, like, how wide they have to
• 59:31
  Speaker 8: go to be like, oh, I guess it's a crime
• 59:32
  Speaker 8: to commit crime.
• 59:33
  Speaker 3: It's like, yep, 100%.
• 59:34
  Speaker 1: Oh, now it's a crime to overturn democracy?
• 59:37
  Speaker 3: Wow.
• 59:38
  Speaker 8: Oh, I'm sorry.
• 59:39
  Speaker 3: Wow, guys.
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: Oh, now we can't attack the Capitol?
• 59:42
  Speaker 8: All of a sudden, the people bringing this count they
• 59:46
  Speaker 8: have here, conspiracy against rights, they should be indicted for
• 59:49
  Speaker 8: conspiracy against rights for bringing this indictment. It's a conspiracy
• 59:54
  Speaker 8: against his First Amendment rights.
• 59:56
  Speaker 3: Now, is that a legal expert? I think it's a
• 59:59
  Speaker 3: legal expert. Unfortunately, it is. And what legal expert is that?
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 2: Trump's lawyer.
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 3: I mean, which of the millions of them?
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 1: Give us a hint. It's a former lawyer. Is it
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 1: a co-conspirator?
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 3: It is a co-conspirator. Eastman? Nope.
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 1: Giuliani.
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 3: It's Giuliani, baby.
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 8: Rudy. And that's the problem with this game is that
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 8: eventually you realize, oh, but the lawyers on their side
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 8: are also just some fucking guys.
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 2: That's right.
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 3: They don't give a fuck. That is, it's just hard
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 3: to realize, you know.
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 2: Wait, Hallie, I actually have a question.
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 3: Yes, please.
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 2: Giuliani was disbarred, wasn't he?
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 3: That's a great point. So yes, he's not, you're right,
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 3: he's not.
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 1: He is just some fucking guy.
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 4: He's just some fucking guy.
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 2: Sorry, I did, I literally.
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 3: No, no, no, you're absolutely right.
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 2: I did myself in with that one.
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 1: That's pretty good.
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 2: But I had to be honest.
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 1: That's good.
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 3: No, I thank you so much for pointing that out.
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 8: And yeah, again, so if Giuliani approaches you out of
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 8: a dark alley at office's legal.
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 2: Just some fucking guy.
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 6: Run.
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 1: Just some fucking guy.
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 8: The Trump indictment is their feelings masquerading as facts.
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 3: It's criminalizing thoughts. Now, is that a legal expert?
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 8: Or is that just some fucking guy?
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 2: Some fucking guy.
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 3: And what guy do you think that is? I'll give
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 3: you a hint. He's the king of late night, unfortunately.
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 1: Oh, no. It's Greg Gutfeld.
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 3: It is Greg Gutfeld.
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 2: I was going to say MyPillow.
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 1: It was either him or Jesse Waters. I don't know
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 1: who's the king, but I think it's Greg.
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 8: Where's the MyPillow guy? Well, probably face down in a
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 8: gutter somewhere.
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 3: And then finally, just one more.
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 8: This is like lawfare, they call it. Legal warfare. If
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 8: this was political, this would be like a political war crime.
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 3: This is overkill. This is political germ warfare. These are
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 3: political war crimes. It is an atrocity. It's like not
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 3: dropping one atomic bomb, you drop 15 dozen.
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 1: Come on.
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 3: Enough is enough. Now, is that a legal expert?
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 1: Some.
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 2: Or just a fucking guy? I think it might be
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 2: some fucking lady.
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 1: That's gotta be some fucking guy.
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 3: It is a gentleman.
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 4: Oh.
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 1: Oh.
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 3: We did just mention him.
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 1: It's Rudy Giuliani again?
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 3: No, no, no.
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 1: Oh, is it.
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 3: You just mentioned him.
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 1: Johnny Smith? No, what I.
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 3: Fox's own.
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 1: Oh, is it Jesse Waters?
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 3: Jesse Waters.
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 8: 15 fucking atomic.
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 3: That's how crazy this is.
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 2: I thought for sure that was Marjorie.
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 1: That was my first thought, too.
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I was like, this is so hyperbolic, it can
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 2: only be Marjorie.
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 1: Or Matt Gaetz.
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 3: I think Marjorie, she's cooking up something. She's writing a
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 3: whole novella.
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 2: She does have a novella.
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 8: Now, it turns out there weren't a lot of actual
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 8: legal experts who did weigh on this, presumably because there's
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 8: a lot of evidence.
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 3: And they're like, well, it's kind of there.
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 2: They're like, I still want other clients.
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 8: And let us move on to a celebration of the OGs,
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 8: of course, the Resistance Libs. Hope those aging knees are
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 8: holding up as you take yet another victory lap. Time
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 8: to kick back with a glass of adaptogen hop water,
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 8: because wine during the week at this point, your sleep
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 8: gets all messed up. Give yourself a little pat on
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 8: your aching back before again we all return once again
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 8: to the 24-hour toxic churn of anti-trans, anti-queer, anti-abortion rights, anti-black,
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 8: anti-labor profanity. The right continues to vomit into America's open
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 8: screaming mouth.
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 3: But for right now, Let's have fun. Give yourself a
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 3: minute of a breather. Gentlemen and women.
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much.
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 8: I'm going to read you some mouth-watering resistance libs tweets,
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 8: and you're going to rank them on a four-tiered scale.
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 3: Okay. Level one, Notorious RBG. Level two, Cheeto and Chief. Okay.
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 3: Level three, Dumbledore's Army. That takes you back. Okay.
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 8: And then finally, four, Occupy Democrats.
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 3: Okay. Okay. All right. Here's one.
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 8: And if you want, you can also guess who tweeted this.
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 3: That's what wants to be an element.
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 8: We're coming towards an inflection point and a fraught moment
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 8: in the history of our democracy.
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 1: Oh my God.
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 3: But frankly, considering the interests.
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 8: Of justice and the rule of law, it's about damn time.
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 3: Who do you think tweeted that?
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 4: Oof.
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 1: That's a real crossing the Delaware moment.
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 2: I'm not on Twitter anymore, really.
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 3: Thank God for your brain.
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 2: I am not, but I do feel like it's only
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 2: a two.
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I was going to say, is that the Cheeto
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 1: God or something?
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Cheeto and Chief. Cheeto and Chief.
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 2: That was Cheeto and Chief.
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree with Cheeto and Chief.
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 2: But who said it?
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 3: It was Adam Schiff.
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 1: Oh, wow.
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 2: Shifty Schiff.
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 3: You got to go big, though.
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 8: You only get an afternoon before we move on on Twitter.
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 8: Election deniers, never, and never is all, is capitalized. Prosper,
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 8: who do you think tweeted that?
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 1: Prosper.
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 2: Oh, it wasn't Trump.
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 1: Is that Midas Touch?
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 3: This would be Occupied Democrats.
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 1: Oh, it is, I'm so close.
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 3: One of their less zany.
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 1: Ones, I would say. That's why I didn't, that's why
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 1: it was Midas Touch, yeah.
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 3: Election deniers never prosper. Where are we putting this? Is
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 3: this a notorious RBG?
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 2: It's a notorious RBG.
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 1: I think it's a notorious RGB.
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 2: It's not that fantastical.
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 1: Well, yeah, for them, too.
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 3: Especially.
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 8: Even Fidel Castro, Hugo Chavez, and Adolf Hitler never carried
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 8: out a plan like Trump's choice of acting Attorney General
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 8: Jeffrey Clark proposed to use the Insurrection Act to hold
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 8: power by force by turning the U.S.
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 3: Army against the people of America rising up against their coup.
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 1: That is, first of all, that is a full-on Occupy Democrat.
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 1: Full Occupy. That's the craziest one we've ever heard.
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 2: Is it RFK?
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 8: Now, this is Grant Stern, who is the executive editor
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 8: of Occupy Democrats. Oh, okay.
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 2: All right. Well, then he's like representing.
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 1: Hey, dude, that is fucking kooky. I just want to
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 1: tell you.
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 2: That's why I thought it was RFK.
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 1: And again, don't use Hitler in your comparisons. Just don't
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 1: do it.
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 2: Hitler's name, Addie Amat.
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 3: Finally, somebody said it.
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 1: No Hitler.
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 3: Ha ha.
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 8: You will never be president is trending now because salty
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 8: ass Trump supporters are letting former VP Mike Pence have
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 8: it for the part he played in making today possible.
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 3: So delicious. And then sort of like the smiling, laughing face.
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 5: Emoji?
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 2: Emoji.
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 3: And I, again.
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 2: Someone used an emoji?
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 3: Favreau, I feel like you know these.
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 1: Oh, no.
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 2: This is terrifying. I think you do know these.
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 1: First, I'm going to do the rating. This is a three,
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 1: and three was.
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 3: Three, of course, was Dumbledore's Army.
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 1: Dumbledore's Army. Yeah, this feels like a Dumbledore's Army. Who
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 1: would this be?
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 2: Who uses emojis?
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 3: Individual.
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 2: Individual.
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 3: He has a location, a role within his family.
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 1: A role within his family.
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 3: Oh, oh, oh.
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 1: Is it a Krasenstein?
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 3: It is Brooklyn Dad Defiant.
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 1: Oh, Brooklyn Dad Defiant.
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 2: You guys, I'm not going to lie. I'm feeling good
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 2: about myself that I don't know any of these people.
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 3: You should.
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 1: You should.
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 8: Being on Twitter this week, I think the last couple weeks,
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 8: I'm like, this might be, I might be breaking.
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 3: I don't know what it is. The whole experience is bad.
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 1: Brooklyn Dad Defiant. First of all, just what a name.
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 3: I mean, truly. And then we'll just do one more.
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 3: Just the word karma, period.
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 2: So that's a one.
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 1: That's a one. Victoria's RBG.
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 2: RBG.
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 6: Hmm.
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 3: Karma.
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 6: Hmm.
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 3: Who's Karma?
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 1: That's a tough one.
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 2: Give us a hint.
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah. It's also Brooklyn Dead Defiant.
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 8: I got a lot of those from him. Thank you
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 8: for playing.
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 3: Thank you.
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 8: I'm going to wait for him to get indicted a
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 8: fourth time and you can have me back on to
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 8: play again.
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 2: In Georgia, right?
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 1: Did you bring a Jack Smith bobblehead doll for the winner?
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 1: Or are we going to light the votive candle later?
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 4: You know what?
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 3: The battle hat is a candle. So actually, we'll bring it.
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 3: We'll have a whole thing. We'll have a nice sit-down meal.
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 1: Hallie Kiefer, thank you for those fantastic games. Alyssa Mastermonaco,
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 1: thank you. for being the guest host. This was so
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 1: much fun.
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 2: Please have me back all the time.
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 1: Anytime.
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 2: It's like you and me back in that horrible Carrie
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 2: campaign office in 03.
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 1: And here we are.
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 2: 20 years we've been together.
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 1: Have we moved forward? I think so.
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, but we're still the same.
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 1: And thank you to Strict Scrutiny's Leah Lippman. Everyone have
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 1: a great weekend. We will talk to you next week.
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 1: Pod Save America is a Crooked Media production. The executive
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 1: producer is Michael Martinez. Our producers are Andy Gardner Bernstein
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 1: and Olivia Martinez. It's mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick.
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 1: Jordan Cantor is our sound engineer with audio support from
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 1: Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis. Thanks to Hallie Kiefer, Madeline Herringer,
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 1: Ari Schwartz, Andy Taft, and Justine Howe for production support.
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 1: And to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Phoebe Bradford, Mia Kelman,
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 1: Ben Hefko, and David Tolles. Subscribe to Pod Save America
• 1:08:22
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• 1:08:25
  Speaker 1: community events. Find us at youtube.com slash at Pod Save America.