Latest / Future Christian / Terri Hord Owens on building a connected Christian Church (Disciples of Christ)

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Terri Hord Owens on building a connected Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) · Future Christian

0:05
>> Paul: Welcome to the Future Christian podcast. Your
0:08
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your
0:11
church into the 21st century.
0:15
At the Future Christian podcast, we talk to
0:18
pastors, authors and other faith leaders for helpful
0:21
advice and practical wisdom to help you and your
0:24
community of faith walk boldly into the future.
0:27
Now here's your host, Lauren Richmond Junior.
0:35
>> Loren: Welcome to the Future Christian podcast. Today we're
0:38
welcoming Reverend Teresa Hord Owens to the show.
0:42
Reverend Hord Owens is the general minister and president of
0:45
the Christian Church Disciples of Christ in the United States
0:48
and Canada. She is the first person of color and
0:51
second woman to lead the denomination and the
0:53
first woman of african descent to lead a, uh, mainline
0:56
denomination. Elected in 2017,
0:59
Reverend Hort Owens was re elected to a second term
1:02
as general minister and president in 2023.
1:05
Her ministry actively reflects the disciples priority
1:08
of, uh, being an anti racist church, being a movement for
1:11
wholeness, welcoming all to the Lord's table as God has
1:14
welcomed us. Her exhortation to the church is,
1:17
let's be the church we say we are. It is in being who
1:20
we say we are that we actively bear witness to God's
1:23
limitless love for all. Reverend Horde Owens
1:26
earned her bachelor's degree from Harvard University
1:29
and her m div from a University of Chicago divinity
1:32
school, where she subsequently served as dean of
1:34
students for twelve years. Reverend Hord
1:37
Owen's resume includes more than 20 years of leadership in corporate
1:40
America, leading diverse teams in data management.
1:44
She serves on the National Council of Churches as the
1:46
treasurer of the governing board and is a member of the
1:49
World Council of Church's central committee.
1:52
Let's welcome Reverend Horde Owens to the show.
2:00
Uh, all right, welcome to the Future
2:03
Christian podcast. This is Lauren Richmond, junior, and
2:06
I'm m pleased to be welcoming today
2:08
general minister and president of the Christian Church, disciple of
2:11
Christ, Reverend Theresa Hort Owens. Thank
2:14
you so much for being here today.
2:16
>> Reverend Teresa Hord Owens: Well, thank you, Loren for having me. I'm excited to have this
2:19
conversation.
2:20
>> Loren: Yeah, looking forward to it as well.
2:23
So, anything else you'd like to share about yourself with
2:26
our listeners?
2:28
>> Reverend Teresa Hord Owens: Well, uh, the most exciting thing that's happening in
2:31
my life is I'm a, ah, relatively new grandma. I have an
2:34
18 month old grandson who
2:37
lives here in the Chicago area with me. I get to spend, uh,
2:40
time with him. So, uh, he sort of
2:42
rearranged my priorities for, uh, what I
2:45
do with my free time and a different
2:47
perspective, uh, on the world. I'm
2:50
also a very musical person. I'm married to a musician and gave birth
2:53
to one, uh, and, uh, so
2:56
our family is really into theater and all kinds
2:59
of classical, uh, hip hop. My
3:01
son produces k pop. So.
3:04
Gifted with a beautiful family.
3:06
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah. And I'll say, as a parent, we appreciate
3:09
grandparents involvement.
3:11
>> Reverend Teresa Hord Owens: Yeah, exactly.
3:14
>> Loren: Well, sure. If you would kind of your faith journey, what
3:17
that's looked like in the past and what that looks like today.
3:21
>> Reverend Teresa Hord Owens: Um, I grew up in a progressive,
3:24
uh, Baptist church where my grandfather was the
3:27
minister. Small town in southern Indiana.
3:31
Indiana, uh, at the time, and still is, some would
3:34
argue, um,
3:36
it's beyond a red state. For many years in the early
3:39
20th century, Indiana was sort of the republican party.
3:42
In Indiana was the klan. My grandfather was
3:45
active in, uh, helping to desegregate
3:48
public facilities, worked very closely, led
3:51
the NAACP in our town. Got, uh, several
3:54
threats and death threats as a result of that work. So for
3:56
me, I was baptized at an
3:59
early age, like five years old, vacation bible
4:02
school. And papa was the minister. So
4:05
what he said had great credibility. Um,
4:08
and so I always saw the model of church as
4:11
being faith, um, in
4:13
community. Um, our church was
4:16
the ground zero for a lot of
4:19
community work. My grandfather helped to build a
4:22
new community center, um, that still
4:25
stands the Charles T. Height community center. So
4:28
the kinds of things that I saw faith in action, along with Sunday
4:31
school and Baptist training union and vacation bible
4:33
school, I saw the church very active in the community, really
4:36
vibrant, um, ministry to
4:39
college students. Indiana state, Rose
4:42
Hellman Institute of Technology, St. Mary of the woods
4:45
college. Um, so it was a very
4:48
vibrant and well rounded ministry.
4:50
Uh, and my other set of
4:53
grandparents, uh, belonged to another baptist
4:56
church, sort of out in what we call the country, a small
4:59
church that had been founded in 1850 by a,
5:02
uh, community of blacks who came to that part of
5:05
the state in 1820.
5:07
>> Loren: Wow.
5:07
>> Reverend Teresa Hord Owens: Um, and so I'm descended from a really
5:10
historic african american community in Indiana. Always
5:13
knew about those roots from my grandparents and
5:16
my. So one grandfather's a minister, the other's a
5:19
deacon in the other church. Very active.
5:21
And so church was a big part of my life, but it was also
5:24
about community and justice from a very early
5:27
age.
5:28
>> Loren: Yeah. So if I heard you right then,
5:31
you're kind of a preacher's kid. Yes, technically.
5:33
>> Reverend Teresa Hord Owens: Yeah. PGK, preacher's grandkid. Yeah.
5:36
>> Loren: Okay. Okay. Gotcha, gotcha. Yes, yes.
5:39
Okay, great. Uh, and then share, if you would, kind of your
5:42
journey into the, uh, christian church, disciple of
5:45
Christ, and how that led to where you're at right
5:48
now.
5:49
>> Reverend Teresa Hord Owens: Yes. Um, my mother moved to
5:51
Indianapolis when I was in college. My parents had
5:54
divorced, um, and my mother did a
5:57
unique thing. She invited her three college age
5:59
kids to look for a church together.
6:03
Um, we had friends who were members of,
6:06
uh, the second christian church, as it was known now, light
6:09
of the world christian church. But my grandfather had been
6:11
a state leader in the baptist church. And so we
6:14
literally, I think, visited probably every black baptist
6:17
church in Indianapolis and kept coming back to second
6:20
christian doctor t. Garrett Benjamin junior. And
6:23
we finally made the decision as a family, my mom and her
6:25
three college age kids. The, uh, decision to join that
6:28
church, not really realizing at the time what it meant
6:31
for this church to be connected with the
6:34
christian church, disciples of Christ. Um,
6:37
but in my college years, being home
6:40
during the summers when I graduated from college,
6:43
I came back to Indiana and served that
6:45
church, um, on the music staff, part
6:48
time playing and working with, um, the
6:51
youth choir. Um, my career
6:54
led me away to Chicago and I
6:57
actually joined another church,
7:00
um, an ame zion church, met m and
7:02
married my husband, who was recruited back to my home
7:05
disciples church, uh, to be the minister of
7:08
music. And from that point, uh, I
7:11
discerned a call of ministry at my home church. And
7:14
we were there for about nine years, um,
7:16
and eventually, once I discerned that
7:19
call, wanted to go to the University of Chicago. We have
7:22
disciples divinity House affiliated with the divinity school
7:25
there, a really strong disciples community. And so that brought
7:28
us back to Chicago and we've been here ever since.
7:31
But I was, um, an
7:34
it consultant, it executive. Ah, I
7:36
was recruited away from my, um,
7:39
corporate career, which I was always, uh, working.
7:42
I was working full time and
7:45
going to school full time. Uh, it was a crazy
7:48
four years, actually. Um, with a nine year
7:51
old, my son and my husband serving
7:54
a large church in ministry. He took a job with the church so that
7:57
we come back, uh, and I served,
8:00
um, the University of Chicago divinity School for twelve years as
8:02
dean of students. And while I was doing that,
8:05
pastored, uh, a small congregation in the western
8:08
suburbs of Chicago, First Christian church
8:11
in Downers Grove. So that's the work I was doing. Very
8:13
fulfilled. And I say that
8:16
I was drafted, people, when it
8:19
was time for Sharon Watkins to end her term, my
8:22
predecessor, people said, have you ever thought about, um,
8:25
being considered for general minister and president? And I quite honestly had
8:28
not. Uh, and there were so many people that kept
8:31
asking me this and I allowed people to put my
8:34
name into nomination for the process and quite
8:37
honestly was not, um, that stressed out about it
8:40
because I was so, I was very happy
8:42
and content, um, being the dean of
8:45
students at the divinity school and, um,
8:48
serving the congregation. There are
8:51
parts of both of those things that I really miss.
8:54
Um, but, uh,
8:57
you laugh and say you have a plan and God has another
9:00
plan. So m I
9:02
just began the process and said, if it is
9:05
for me, it will be, and we'll see what happens. So
9:09
here I am, and just reelected to my second
9:11
term last summer at our general assembly.
9:14
>> Loren: Yeah. And I was fortunate to be a part of that, uh, election,
9:17
I think, you know, I think it was pretty safe bet
9:20
you were going to get there. But I'm glad to support
9:22
you. Share, if you would,
9:26
some things that sustain you spiritually,
9:28
uh, especially as you have this big
9:31
role of leading so many pastors and so many
9:34
people.
9:35
>> Reverend Teresa Hord Owens: Absolutely. I think one of the most important things,
9:38
and I've said this from the beginning when, uh, I was the
9:41
nominee, and I continue to say it everywhere I go, is
9:44
that, um, we are followers of
9:47
Jesus Christ. And so we have. There's a spiritual
9:50
person, Paul calls it the inner man, that
9:53
has to be fed and nurtured. Um,
9:55
and I firmly believe
9:58
in, uh, prayer, meditation,
10:01
spiritual practice. I practice centering prayer,
10:04
uh, which is simply being quiet
10:07
and allowing God to speak. Um, I lead an
10:10
intercessory prayer time whenever I can
10:13
on Facebook, live on Wednesdays. I started
10:16
that during the pandemic. Continue to do it, even
10:19
though I'm traveling more. I can't do it every week, but I continue
10:22
to do it because I enjoy inviting people into
10:25
that sacred space where we. I reflect a little on
10:27
scripture, whatever the lectionary texts are. I do just
10:30
a brief commentary on this text, and, uh,
10:33
then I pray for whatever people want
10:36
prayer for. Uh, I ask them to, let's
10:39
celebrate. Let's thank God. What are the, um.
10:42
What are the praise reports but my own
10:44
practice now that I'm not pastoring, um, and preaching
10:47
every week. I preach quite a bit on the
10:50
weekends, but when I'm not,
10:52
um, because I'm not pastoring, I study the lectionary
10:55
every week. And that's become my Bible study, sort of
10:58
my guide through the Bible. I have lots of
11:01
different, um, devotional texts that I read.
11:04
I'm always, uh, walking alongside our
11:07
denominational advent and lenten
11:09
devotionals. Um, I read a lot of
11:12
Howard Thurman. Um, so I
11:15
really believe you have to study. Fred
11:18
Craddock, one of our illustrious preachers,
11:21
said, the life of ministry is a life of study.
11:24
And so we can't really
11:27
grapple or wrestle with the text that
11:29
God knows that it's a hard text sometimes to deal
11:32
with and to preach and to teach, but you have to kind
11:35
of stay with it. And, um, that feeds me.
11:39
Uh, I spend time in prayer and meditation
11:42
and try to find, ah, quiet time for
11:45
myself. I travel a lot, so sometimes
11:48
time on the plane becomes
11:50
that quiet time where I just put earbuds in
11:53
and just am quiet and alone to myself.
11:57
Yeah.
11:57
>> Loren: Closer to God, we might say. Right?
11:59
>> Reverend Teresa Hord Owens: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's really important. And,
12:02
um, I find that when I don't do those
12:05
things regularly, I can feel a difference in myself.
12:08
And, uh, I think it's important for those of us who
12:11
serve, particularly who are, uh, faith leaders,
12:14
spiritual leaders, that if we're dry, you can, you know,
12:17
psalm one says, uh, that the one who
12:19
meditates on the word of the Lord day and night will be like a tree planted
12:22
by the rivers of water. His fruit will give fruit
12:25
in due season and his leaves, the leaves won't
12:28
wither.
12:29
>> Loren: Yeah.
12:29
>> Reverend Teresa Hord Owens: Well, if you're spiritually dry, if you've ever touched a
12:32
flower or, um, flower, uh,
12:35
arrangement, uh, that's brittle, it can cut
12:38
you and hurt you. So if you are spiritually dry,
12:41
I think as a spiritual leader, uh, you will either
12:43
damage yourself or worse yet, you can damage
12:46
people when you're not in a good place emotionally and
12:49
spiritually.
12:50
>> Loren: Boy, good lesson there. Good lesson
12:52
there. Yeah. Thank you. Well, I
12:55
appreciate you sharing all that. Uh, so for our listeners, I
12:58
had Terry on to talk about her
13:01
role, uh, leading our denomination, shared
13:03
denomination. The christian church, disciples of Christ. We're going to kind of
13:06
center some of our conversation based on her
13:09
presentation, uh, at the state of the church,
13:12
uh, as she led the general board and
13:15
ministry here. That was in April, if I remember correctly.
13:17
>> Reverend Teresa Hord Owens: In April, correct.
13:18
>> Loren: Yeah. Um, so let's begin just kind of
13:21
talking about some of the. This is going to be a little
13:24
inside baseball here, um, for. For
13:27
listeners who are our ecumenical listeners, so to speak.
13:30
But share, if you would, kind of what's happening around the
13:32
denomination with the Covenant project,
13:35
the narrative project, the proclamation project, those sorts of
13:38
things.
13:39
>> Reverend Teresa Hord Owens: Sure. Um, the Covenant project, ah,
13:42
represents a huge vote that the General
13:45
assembly took last summer to change two
13:47
things. The way our general board is,
13:50
uh, how it's comprised and how it's
13:52
selected, and then the cycle
13:55
and method, uh, by gathering our general
13:58
assembly, we're, I think, the only mainline
14:01
denomination that actually has a governance
14:04
process that allows every single congregation to
14:07
have voting, uh, delegates to make choices. So
14:10
the general assembly for us was like the top,
14:12
um, body. Yeah, that's the body that
14:15
elects me. And we you know, our moderators and
14:18
there's many decisions that could
14:21
be made by the general board, but ultimately have to go to the
14:24
General assembly because that's the people, those are the
14:27
congregations you can attend a general
14:29
assembly meeting. Um, and again,
14:32
we have to stress that the general assembly is actually the body,
14:35
it's the church. Our church's legal name is the general
14:38
assembly of the christian church, disciples of Christ,
14:41
um, in the United States and Canada. Um,
14:44
but we have to, um. In a
14:47
world where people are less able to
14:50
afford to attend in person only meetings.
14:52
Right.
14:53
>> Loren: Right.
14:53
>> Reverend Teresa Hord Owens: What it has meant over time is that the
14:56
participation in those key decision
14:59
making gatherings is going down.
15:01
I remember when there were eight, 9000 people at general
15:04
assembly. Uh, and the last two we've had
15:07
a little over 3000. Um, and so
15:10
that means that the people who are really making the
15:13
decisions and each congregation right
15:16
now gets two, uh, voting delegates.
15:19
And, um, anyone can attend.
15:22
Anyone can actually come to the mic and have voice,
15:25
but there are only a few people from each of those congregations
15:28
that are allowed to vote. Um, we've
15:31
changed. Um, so with the goal of this
15:33
connection and getting more people involved in
15:36
this very unique, um, my counterparts and
15:39
peers in the ecumenical world say every single
15:42
congregation gets a representative. It's like, yes,
15:44
every single congregation we have a little over
15:47
3000. The new rules would give every
15:50
congregation three voting delegates. So we could
15:53
potentially have a gathering of 9000 people.
15:55
So we've moved the in person event from every
15:59
two years to every three years. But in between, we're going
16:02
to start having virtual digital, uh,
16:04
gatherings at least once a year. Not just to
16:07
have a docket where we vote yay or nay on particular
16:10
topics, but to develop this
16:12
understanding of listening. It was like listening,
16:15
learning, discerning and deciding. Right.
16:18
So, uh, sometimes we have issues that come to the
16:21
floor of the general assembly and we don't even
16:24
know or understand the issue that's, uh,
16:27
at hand. Um, we had an emergency
16:29
resolution in Louisville in July that
16:32
just simply wanted to oppose, uh, the
16:35
anti trans legislation. It was causing so
16:38
much devastation to young people and their
16:41
families and taking away the rights of parents to decide
16:44
how they would care for their kids and their kids own
16:47
process. Um, some people don't even know
16:50
what the word transgender means or what that
16:52
actually means, and they're confused. So if you bring something
16:55
to the floor and we haven't had a chance to do education or
16:58
discussion about it, we create these sort of false
17:01
divisions that are simply there because we
17:04
haven't moved to the place where people understand well
17:07
enough to authentically disagree. And m. We also
17:10
have a situation where if you feel that the position
17:13
that's being taken, no one's going to hear you. Oh, uh, the
17:16
church is always going to vote along these lines. I can't
17:19
speak. That's not a situation that we want,
17:22
either. So, hopefully, within these
17:24
virtual meetings. And the virtual meetings are not
17:27
being construed as everybody in a Zoom
17:30
box. Right. And we've got thousands of people on
17:33
a zoom screen. We're thinking more communal
17:36
gatherings, like, we might have, um, churches
17:39
that have the ability to connect, you know, good wi
17:41
fi. Wi fi is weak in
17:44
certain parts of the country. Um, but maybe there's a
17:47
church that has space, almost like a mini regional
17:50
assembly, where people could come and gather. They could be sort of a
17:53
satellite hub and connect both the
17:56
visual and, uh, the ability to come to the
17:58
mic, um, and conduct
18:01
this sort of church wide, a virtual
18:04
meeting where the voting representatives still
18:07
have the ability to vote. We're looking at technology that will allow
18:10
us to vote remotely, but even people in the
18:13
congregations who are not voting
18:16
representatives would still be able to participate,
18:19
hear what's happening, contribute, speak,
18:22
and have a greater sense of being connected to, uh,
18:25
this wider church. So those are the changes that will be
18:28
happening with the general assembly, with the general board.
18:30
Currently, each regional ministry, that's
18:33
31 regions, and each general ministry, 13 of
18:36
those, sends a representative, and that leaves us with
18:39
17 at large. Well, just
18:42
because each one sends one doesn't necessarily mean that
18:44
the whole is as diverse as we want it to be.
18:47
And right now, those terms are like two years. So every
18:50
two years, you've got a new group of people, just as they're
18:53
figuring it out. You have to continually
18:56
educate people about the trajectory of where the church
18:59
is going. We also don't necessarily get
19:02
the kinds of skills that you would want on any board.
19:04
Um, financial, organizational
19:07
development, teachers, educators,
19:09
attorneys, as well as clergy. We always
19:12
try, uh, to have a good balance between clergy and laity
19:16
so that our laity are in good numbers.
19:18
Uh, so the general board is not dominated, uh,
19:21
by clergy, but there's an equal proportion of
19:24
laity. So instead of each one sending one,
19:27
people will now nominate, and the general nominating committee
19:30
will choose 50 voting representatives.
19:33
Smaller, uh, board, working board that will be
19:36
in participating, will be participating,
19:39
rather, with these, uh, virtual gatherings every
19:41
year with the general assembly will have the ability for the
19:44
moderator to call the general assembly into
19:47
session digitally. Um, so that's the
19:50
covenant project, really, trying to get people more plugged
19:53
in to the decision making and
19:56
discerning process of, uh, various issues
19:59
that are part of the church, and making it
20:01
possible for people to participate so that the
20:04
economics of being there in person for
20:07
travel is not a barrier. And even when we
20:10
do gather in person, creating a hybrid option
20:13
so that you can participate in all the business
20:16
remotely. Um, so that. And we're calling it covenant
20:19
project. Um, number one, because when you say
20:22
governance, people's eyes roll backwards in their
20:25
heads. Um, but because we're a
20:27
covenantal body, we don't have a hierarchical
20:30
structure. I don't have a big gavel where I can just say,
20:33
so let it be written, so let it be done. Right. So
20:36
our churches are really the foundation,
20:39
and they're really the highest pillar of
20:42
decision, uh, making that we have. So we have to be sure
20:45
that our congregations can participate, because one of
20:48
the things that we learned in this whole process is too many of
20:51
our congregations, they don't know how the general board works. They don't know what
20:54
happens at general assembly. They are the
20:57
crux of all of that. And so, connection is
21:00
really there. So this covenant, we, uh, had created a
21:03
curriculum, a six week video curriculum with a study
21:06
guide to really reinforce what does it mean to
21:08
be a church that lives in covenant. And so let me jump
21:11
to the church narrative project.
21:14
Um, church narrative project,
21:17
kind of. And I'm always trying to connect the dots between
21:20
these three. I started out, um,
21:22
setting a personal goal to say, we're a church
21:25
that's anti racist, pro reconciling,
21:28
and we've been doing this for decades, right? We've been training
21:31
for decades, and it feels like the training has only
21:33
gotten to the clergy level. Has
21:36
it really made it into the pews? How do we better live into that?
21:40
Uh, and consulted with doctor, uh,
21:43
David Anderson Hooker, who I had met at a national council of churches
21:46
event, and, um, thought, well, maybe he could
21:49
help us sort of assess reconciliation, uh, ministry.
21:52
What he taught me was that unless we change
21:55
the narrative that we're all living into training,
21:58
uh, won't matter. Uh, he calls
22:01
the narrative the highway, and the stories are our
22:03
cars. So we could let a whole lot of cars
22:06
onto the highway, right? Uh, but
22:09
if the direction in which they could move doesn't
22:12
change, then we're not
22:15
changing anything, really. Um, I often
22:18
say that the unspoken narrative of our church
22:21
is that we're really a predominantly white
22:23
denomination that has decided it wants to let some other people
22:26
come to the table. So as long as we're still acting and living
22:29
like that nothing will really change. M. You can even have a black
22:32
GNP, for heaven's sake. And if everything else
22:35
that you understand about who we are and where the real
22:38
power is and where the real opportunities are, that doesn't
22:41
change. Um, then nothing has really
22:44
changed. So the church narrative project is
22:47
region by region. We're having conversations allowing people
22:50
to sort of name what's the problematic, because
22:52
people aren't the problem. The problem is the problem. Let's name
22:55
the problem. We all probably have people that if we
22:58
could move them out of the way, our lives
23:01
would be simpler. But it's not that simple.
23:04
The problem is the problem. And so, region by region,
23:07
Doctor Andersen spends time with them. Um, and we sort of
23:10
map it out. And then we talk about, in the
23:13
midst of all of that, what are the things that you really
23:16
want the christian church, disciples of Christ to be and speak
23:19
to? What do you want people to feel and experience as
23:22
part of this church? So now we've done twelve
23:25
regions and we're starting to kind of compare notes.
23:27
And the hope is that we'll build
23:30
this common narrative, um, that we
23:33
all, uh, say, this is what we want to live into.
23:36
This is the narrative that we want to guide who we are. We have
23:39
a wonderful identity statement that says,
23:41
we are, uh, disciples of Christ. A movement for
23:44
wholeness in a fragmented world as part of the one
23:47
body of Christ. We welcome all to the table as
23:50
God has welcomed us. But the
23:52
narrative that we live into will really
23:55
describe what we want people to feel and
23:58
experience. No matter where you
24:01
go, uh, in our church, uh, different
24:04
geographies, different races and ethnicities,
24:06
different cultures, urban rule, um, some
24:09
places of the US and Canada, more diverse
24:12
and some less. No matter how we're different
24:15
as congregations, there ought to be some common
24:18
elements that one experiences when you come to our
24:21
church. And that's what we're trying to get at with the
24:23
narrative. And really by having the
24:26
experience of talking about the hard stuff and naming the
24:29
problems, uh, that's kind of building
24:31
capacity for people to participate in this
24:34
new general assembly world and general board world,
24:37
where we want you to come to the mic, we want you to speak, we want
24:40
more people involved. And, uh, finally, the
24:42
proclamation project. Uh, we were
24:45
awarded, uh, a Lilly grant as part of their compelling
24:48
preaching grant project. And,
24:51
um, so the Reverend doctor Lehal Moses
24:54
is, uh, running that project from
24:57
the office of general minister and president. And the goal is
25:00
to equip, um, primarily mid
25:02
career clergy
25:05
who, um, this became clear to us
25:08
in the middle of the pandemic. Uh, all of a sudden,
25:11
the joke was, everyone's a televangelist now,
25:13
right? Everybody's got a broadcast. But there were
25:16
people. Um, my seminary education
25:19
would never have imagined that I'd be setting up a
25:22
camera in my sanctuary, and nobody's there,
25:25
and I'm broadcasting. So the way in which
25:28
you conduct yourself on screen is very different than in
25:31
live. And at a certain point, you really kind of need
25:34
to refresh how you approach this craft of
25:37
teaching. Some of us are
25:40
no longer the young adults, you know, it's hard to.
25:43
And so we're preaching to a different generation. The world has
25:46
changed. So the goal is to create, uh, preaching
25:48
resources, uh, for clergy across
25:51
the life of the church. Right now, we have four separate
25:54
cohort programs, one that's focusing on
25:56
storytelling and other, uh,
25:59
types of, uh, expression, one that's working
26:02
on media and technology. We have a couple of
26:05
groups that are focused on language.
26:08
So, um, group of clergy whose first language is
26:10
Spanish, another group whose first language is Korean.
26:13
And building these. And so this is the first of a three
26:16
year program. So these are our first cohorts. We have some
26:19
other. These cohorts will meet in person, and some other
26:22
cohorts that are meeting online. We've had some
26:25
online preaching seminars featuring people
26:28
like Leah Shade at Lexington theological Seminary,
26:31
who has a great book called Preaching in the Purple
26:34
Zone. How do we preach and talk in
26:37
this completely polarized society?
26:39
Um, we had New testament professor
26:42
doctor Stephanie Crowder, who is on
26:45
the faculty at Chicago Theological Seminary, helping
26:48
people prepare to preach during advent.
26:51
Uh, we're going to have a retreat in October in,
26:54
um, Arizona, where we're bringing in just really good
26:57
preachers to kind of inspire the preachers. All
26:59
right. All of those things. And really, for
27:02
clergy, that's job one, right? Effectively, like you
27:05
said, uh, proclaiming the gospel of Jesus Christ. So
27:08
those are the three we call the big three in
27:11
our office. And they're all connected, really, to
27:13
strengthening, um, both spiritual
27:16
connection and practice, but strengthening the
27:18
connections, uh, that we have across the
27:21
life of the church and helping us to
27:24
not be afraid to deal with the hard questions and the.
27:27
And the hard problems. If the church doesn't deal with it,
27:31
then who can? So that's my real prayers,
27:34
is not only connection, but building this capacity
27:37
to deal with the tough things as we decide,
27:39
um, how we will live as church in a new world.
27:42
>> Loren: Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned that building capacity. I hope to
27:45
talk more about that here in a few moments. Share, if you would just
27:48
about Alix, the kind of denominational data
27:51
gathering tool. I know data is all the rage right
27:53
now. Some of it, obviously, in mainline
27:56
world, is not super optimistic, but share
27:59
more, uh, some m lessons that can be gleaned
28:02
from the tool.
28:04
>> Reverend Teresa Hord Owens: You have to first know that I spent most of my
28:07
it career in data warehousing and
28:10
database management, and, uh, my IBM days,
28:13
my days. This is the kind of work that I did.
28:15
And I spent several years at Anthem Blue Cross and Blue
28:18
Shield is the, uh, director of corporate data management,
28:21
leading, um, that,
28:25
uh, institution. And that was
28:27
my career, was understanding data and helping
28:30
organizations to understand data and the power
28:33
of information. Um,
28:35
when I came to be GMP, of course, the yearbook
28:38
is our census. We're a
28:41
501 organization. We have a group tax exemption.
28:44
So one of the important things we have to do is have a
28:47
census, right, of who is affiliated with our
28:50
church. And even we have a ministry directory in that who
28:53
are the recognized, uh,
28:55
which allows clergy, uh, other, uh, tax
28:58
benefits. And so there might be a few,
29:01
um, hard copy reports in that
29:03
book, but the book is, you know, yea thick, a small
29:06
phone book kind of thing. Uh,
29:09
I'm
29:13
almost flabbergasted to think about
29:16
my initial reaction. There were no
29:19
online reporting tools or capabilities
29:22
in. People were filling out online
29:24
PDF's that were then printed out and really formatted just
29:27
so that you could print a book.
29:28
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah.
29:29
>> Reverend Teresa Hord Owens: Um, most of our other, um, I
29:32
even approached the Lilly endowment about
29:35
funding something like this, and it turns out
29:38
they didn't consider this to be leading edge or.
29:41
It's like everybody else. Most of our other mainline,
29:44
um, peers had such a
29:46
tool. So we've created what we call Alex, short
29:49
for Alexander Campbell, one of our. The founders of
29:52
our movements. People actually ask me, so what's the Alex? What
29:55
does that stand for?
29:56
>> Loren: Yeah, now, I love that here.
29:57
>> Reverend Teresa Hord Owens: That's actually not an acronym. It's a nickname for
30:00
Alexander Campbell. Um, but
30:03
congregations use Alex. It's a free web
30:06
based tool. They use that to enter in
30:09
their attendance and giving data. And all the other questions they
30:11
would, uh, answer on the yearbook, they can answer
30:14
via Aleks. In addition, week to week, they could
30:17
enter weekly giving and weekly attendance, enter, ah,
30:20
information about who their pastor is and other things, other
30:23
census kind of things, and keep that and update that
30:26
week to week, or they can just enter it once a year.
30:29
Uh, we now take that data and it moves into,
30:31
um, a database from which we're now able to do
30:34
reporting. So we're actually getting ready
30:36
to work, um, on Aleks 2.0
30:39
and change the interface a little bit. Um, but at
30:42
this last general board, we were able to do
30:45
some nice infographics, uh, some posters
30:48
on easels, um, to share with
30:51
folks. One of the interesting phenomena that I always
30:54
sort of, uh, thought and understood, even
30:57
from a back of the envelope kind of calculation, is
31:00
that we have about 3000, a little
31:03
over 3000 congregations. Only about half of them even report to
31:06
the yearbook in 2020.
31:08
317 76. That's an easy number
31:11
for me to remember. Yeah, 1776 actually
31:14
reported the yearbook. Of those, only
31:16
about 60% actually give to our
31:19
unified giving system, disciples mission fund, or any of
31:22
our other special offerings. Another thing that we've
31:25
learned is some of our congregations
31:28
were ashamed to report because, oh, we're
31:31
small. We don't want people to know that we're small. Well,
31:33
67% of our churches worship.
31:36
They have a larger membership, but they worship about
31:39
50% or less. So we're a denomination
31:42
that has a lot of smaller congregations.
31:45
That's who we are. And we need to understand who we
31:47
are as we plan strategies, uh,
31:50
for moving forward, uh, and how we serve
31:53
those congregations. And really giving congregations
31:56
hope that, um, it's all, it's not just
31:59
the disciples, as you named, it's all of the
32:02
mainline. Even, um, evangelical non
32:05
denominational traditions are seeing a
32:07
decline. The pew foundation, uh,
32:11
has all this interesting data about the nuns,
32:14
right, people who don't claim any kind of religious
32:17
or spiritual connection. So this is
32:20
the world that we live in. And since the pandemic, we
32:22
have people who don't even physically want to come to the building
32:25
anymore. Uh, they've gotten comfortable watching at
32:28
home. You have to get the kids ready. It's easier to
32:31
do all these things. So we're, um,
32:34
really trying to continue to,
32:37
uh, think about even our funding system.
32:39
If congregations aren't connected enough and they don't know enough about
32:42
what's happening and they're not giving, that's impacting our
32:45
funding. So how can we get them better connected? How
32:48
can we improve the communication? And, uh, so
32:51
region by region, we can sort of slice and dice this
32:53
information. Our regional ministers are
32:56
really, uh, starting to get excited about the
32:58
ability to examine and do analysis,
33:02
uh, based on the congregations in their region. We're
33:04
working on being able to identify, uh,
33:07
churches that are african american,
33:10
predominantly hispanic, an asian
33:13
little flag there. So the leaders of those ministries
33:15
can see those congregations that are
33:18
affiliated there, um, looking at the
33:20
ministry, uh, directory, the information that our regents
33:23
keep on ministers, how can we better
33:26
understand who those folks are? What's a good
33:28
demographic? Like, right now, we don't even have good information
33:31
about age. Um, because some
33:34
people felt, oh, it's a violation of privacy to capture somebody's
33:37
birth date. Uh, I, right now, couldn't tell you where
33:40
the clergy are who are under 40. That's a problem.
33:43
And so the other conversations that we have to have, once you have
33:46
a question, you have to decide, am I collecting the data?
33:49
That will allow us to answer the question. And in some cases,
33:52
we're not yet collecting the data that we need. So
33:55
it's a constant reiterative loop of saying,
33:58
okay, now I have this question. Do I have the data? If not,
34:01
then I go get it. So if, uh, I weren't GMP,
34:04
I'd be the consultant trying to make this happen for
34:06
you. Um, but we've, uh, got some
34:09
really brilliant people, uh, working alongside
34:12
our team and, uh, trying to get to a point
34:15
where we're starting to publish, uh, via
34:17
PDF, some statistical summary, uh,
34:20
information instead of printing a book.
34:22
>> Loren: Yeah. And what a wonderful gifting that you bring
34:25
to the position, uh, having that background,
34:28
um, I know it'll be a benefit, uh,
34:31
for clergy and church leaders and
34:33
also researchers. I remember
34:36
summer or two ago, Ryan Burge, who's done a lot in this
34:39
world, was thinking, asking about, hey, where's the data
34:42
on the disciples?
34:44
>> Reverend Teresa Hord Owens: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
34:45
>> Loren: I know he'll be happy for one. Um, let's
34:48
shift gears here a little bit and kind of talk about just
34:51
we're, as we're recording this, what we're in the end
34:54
of May, obviously, I'm looking forward to
34:57
summer and slowing down with my kids, but
35:00
also, in the back of my mind, I'm thinking about
35:03
the fall and in the states,
35:06
at least, uh, what's going to be most
35:09
likely a brutal election season.
35:14
One of the things that I appreciate about this
35:16
denomination is that we are, uh, a
35:19
diverse, theologically diverse, uh,
35:23
denomination. I say that we're
35:26
theologically wide and deep,
35:29
so we have a wide theological diversity. We
35:32
also have some were
35:35
purple denomination in that way, too.
35:38
Politically.
35:41
Uh, talk to leaders now, if you would, just
35:44
about how you'd encourage
35:47
them to speak to their congregations during
35:50
this upcoming season. I'm thinking especially about the importance
35:52
of table in our tradition and the importance of
35:55
staying together at table.
35:57
>> Reverend Teresa Hord Owens: Yes, yes. Um, and as you said,
36:00
the really, the heart of
36:03
disciples theology is the importance
36:06
of the covenant that's established at that table
36:09
where Jesus invites any who would come, and
36:12
that it's not our job to say who gets to be there,
36:14
but simply to make room for anyone who wishes to
36:17
come. Um, and Barton Stone
36:20
and Alexander Campbell, our founders, didn't agree on
36:23
everything, but they felt it was the most
36:26
important witness that we could make as the church
36:29
to walk together even when we disagree.
36:32
And that they didn't want to see, uh, fractures
36:34
and splits, uh, within the body, because that
36:37
just, um, cut away at
36:40
the validity, really, of the gospel
36:43
that we preach. Um, and that's who
36:46
I think we are as disciples. As you say that the
36:48
theological diversity is both deep and
36:51
wide, um, and being able to stay at the
36:54
table. I think one of the. I've been involved in a lot
36:57
of, um, um, moral
37:00
movements from the poor people's campaign,
37:03
um, which is trying to, um, empower
37:06
poor and low wealth people to get engaged in the
37:08
political system, to an organization
37:11
that is a, um, consortium of
37:14
mainline and, uh,
37:16
evangelical churches called faiths united to
37:19
save democracy. Um, and the focus
37:22
of all of that work and I think,
37:25
uh, what Leah Shade, who talks about preaching in
37:28
a purple zone, what anybody, uh, will tell you is
37:31
that, first of all, we must ground
37:34
this morally and theologically. Right.
37:37
Um, the biggest challenge we have is people who think, oh,
37:40
don't talk politics in the church. We're not talking partisan
37:43
politics. Um, but we have to
37:45
recognize that as, um, the imago
37:48
dei, that we're created in God's image.
37:52
Uh, and everything that God created was good.
37:54
Um, the Matthew 25, um,
37:57
exhortation to feed the
37:59
hungry, uh, clothe the naked, care for the sick,
38:02
visit those who are in prison. I would argue that you have to go
38:05
beyond that and address the systems that allow people
38:08
to be poor, hungry, and,
38:11
uh, the horrible situation of our criminal, uh, justice
38:14
system that's resulted in mass incarceration.
38:18
But we have to focus people on understanding
38:20
in the church that as followers of Jesus Christ,
38:23
this is our call, our mandate, our mission.
38:26
Jesus, when he reads from Luke 418, uh,
38:29
says, the spirit of the Lord, he's reading from Isaiah, the spirit of the Lord is
38:32
upon me, uh, to set at liberty those who
38:35
are captive, to bind up the brokenhearted,
38:38
uh, to preach the acceptable, uh, year of the Lord
38:41
Jesus own mission. And if you watch and pay
38:44
attention to what Jesus did and whom he hung out with,
38:47
Jesus, uh, was about the
38:49
inclusion of the poor, the inclusion of people on
38:52
the margins, uh, justice, um, in
38:55
society. So that's the perspective that
38:58
we take. And as human beings who have
39:01
dignity and worth, part of our
39:04
society allows us to express that
39:06
humanity through participating in elections and
39:09
helping to make the decisions and choices. Just as
39:12
we would vote at our general assembly, we have to
39:15
vote, uh, in the wider, uh,
39:19
uh, elections that govern the societies in
39:22
which we live. That's how we have the impact.
39:25
And we do that by thinking about,
39:28
um, who are the people and what are the
39:31
policies that we think will further that.
39:34
Now you can make the argument that you have
39:37
the moral majority and the religious right
39:40
who have for years organized and
39:43
put a whole lot of money behind that. But then you
39:46
have to ask along some of those policies.
39:49
Are those policies reflecting the limitless love
39:52
of God? Are they, um. There are a lot of
39:55
people, our denomination took a stance
39:57
against christian nationalism, um, to
40:00
even say that there are some policies and some
40:03
approaches that actually aren't
40:05
Christian because they deny the humanity of
40:08
certain people and that they are actually
40:10
harmful to the human dignity and
40:12
flourishing of certain people. So it must first of all
40:15
be a moral argument and we must
40:18
frame it morally and theologically.
40:21
Um, and then this, uh, we need to
40:24
practice how we have these conversations, right.
40:27
We tend not to steer away from them. Right.
40:30
We don't want to have the conversation. I would argue,
40:33
as I said earlier, we had to build capacity for
40:36
being honest and learning how to respect people, even
40:39
when we disagree with them. Yelling and
40:41
screaming. I can yell and scream with the best of
40:44
them. I thank God for the holy spirit. That has
40:47
cooled my jets a little bit as I've gotten older.
40:50
Um, but we have to respect the fact
40:53
my home, uh, pastor, doctor t. Garrett Benjamin,
40:55
they used to have a preschool program called the respect
40:58
academy, and this was the mantra. We do not have to agree,
41:01
but I must respect you and you must respect
41:04
me. Uh, and that, to me, is what
41:07
staying at the table really is. And
41:10
I really do believe that, um,
41:13
it is the best way to bear
41:15
witness to the gospel of Jesus Christ. Uh,
41:18
to say that I'm not here to reject
41:21
you, you're welcome at the table. I may
41:24
disagree with you to the hilts,
41:27
but I'm not going to allow our disagreement
41:29
unless you're doing, unless you're causing destruction to
41:32
life or limb. Uh, um, you
41:35
know, your disagreement doesn't give you
41:38
sanction to destroy me. You don't get to do that.
41:42
But if we disagree, let's talk
41:45
and better understand and figure this out,
41:47
because the last thing we want is for people outside
41:50
the church to look at the church and say, oh my God,
41:53
why would I want to be a part of that Jesus thing
41:56
when they can't even hold it together, when they treat each other
41:59
that way? Why would I want to be a part of that. If they're
42:02
hateful and discriminatory to other
42:05
people, why would I want to be a part of that? Um,
42:08
and I think it's all wrapped up in the
42:10
moral, uh, and the moral
42:13
arguments, the teachings of Jesus and the witness
42:16
that we say we want to make that witness.
42:19
Um, as I say, let's be the church we say we are. We got
42:21
to do that work, and we need practice, we need to
42:24
learn, we need to build capacity to have those hard
42:27
conversations. But we can't walk away from the table,
42:30
even if we think the other answer is that. I
42:33
don't agree with that. So I'm leaving the table.
42:37
That's not helpful, either.
42:38
>> Loren: Yeah. I'm so glad you've highlighted the importance of
42:41
that. Practicing hard conversations
42:44
and, uh, writing that down. Can't walk
42:46
away from the table.
42:49
I, um, know that's been a topic. Go
42:52
ahead.
42:53
>> Reverend Teresa Hord Owens: I was going to say, a woman I greatly respected, who's no longer
42:56
with us, was the first woman, ah, from
42:59
Africa, to be the moderator of the world council of churches,
43:02
Doctor Agnes aboum.
43:04
Aboum. And she. I saw
43:06
this quote, uh, after she passed away, and I thought,
43:09
she's saying exactly what I want to say. So I quote her
43:12
now all the time. It's okay to disagree. It
43:15
is not okay to disengage.
43:18
Um, and that, for me, is, you know, staying at the
43:21
table is really, uh, the work that
43:24
we're called to do as followers
43:27
of Jesus Christ, no matter what tradition.
43:30
Uh, and I'm so proud to be a part of a church that really
43:33
tries to. That kind of defines us.
43:36
Right. Um, right. That really defines us. But we have
43:39
to do that. We really have to be the church we say we
43:42
are and not be caught up in what's swirling
43:45
around us, where we think that there's only one way
43:48
to be Christian, that's being a certain kind of American,
43:50
or to be a good american. That means you have to be a certain kind of
43:53
Christian. That's just a lie.
43:56
It's not true. It's not faithful
43:59
to the scriptures. It's not faithful to
44:02
the teachings of Jesus. Uh, and so we have
44:05
to find a way to do the hard work.
44:08
>> Loren: Yeah. I appreciate you sharing all that. I think that's very
44:11
helpful. As we think to the future and
44:13
look ahead again. My podcast is future
44:16
Christian, so we tend to try to do some future
44:19
thinking here. One of the things,
44:22
uh, that stood out to me from your conversation, or,
44:25
excuse me, your presentation, your message
44:28
was about the importance of
44:30
imagination before implementation.
44:34
>> Reverend Teresa Hord Owens: Uh, mhm.
44:34
>> Loren: Talk more about that importance.
44:37
>> Reverend Teresa Hord Owens: Yes.
44:39
Um, that, uh, comes from
44:42
a quote from, ah, an amazing
44:45
book that's close to probably 50, probably 50
44:48
years old now. Uh, prophetic imagination by Walter
44:51
Brueggemann, who is a hebrew bible
44:53
scholar. Um, Walter Brueggemann has
44:56
in past years come to the general, uh, assembly to preach
44:59
these things.
45:00
>> Loren: You have the book right here to my. Right here.
45:02
>> Reverend Teresa Hord Owens: Yeah, yeah. And, um, he says in that
45:04
book that, um, the
45:07
prophet is engaged in what he calls futuring
45:10
fantasy. And that our
45:12
society is equipped to implement
45:16
anything. We could implement anything, but
45:18
imagine almost nothing. Uh, and
45:21
that he talks about the empire, and any
45:24
institution that's grounded in a certain kind of
45:26
authority is not interested in you thinking
45:29
differently about things. Because if you're
45:32
imagining, uh, the artist or somebody
45:35
who's thinking differently, um, you
45:38
can rattle. When we build structures,
45:40
sometimes we get really comfortable in how
45:43
things are, because as we grow, we learn
45:46
how to, uh, navigate and manipulate the
45:49
structures to our own benefit. Right, as human
45:51
beings. Uh, and that
45:54
sometimes creates problems. So the empire doesn't want us
45:57
thinking differently. And by empire, those
46:00
are those structures that are intended to privilege
46:03
only a few people. Um, and
46:05
so he talks about the prophet needing to
46:08
create or paint the vision of what the alternate
46:11
reality would look like. Because if we can at least
46:14
help people think, it could be different. It doesn't have to be this
46:17
way. And let's imagine together, as
46:20
I say, who we must be as a new generation church, uh, for a
46:23
new world. We can get there, but we have to first
46:25
imagine and be free to think,
46:28
um, and not be afraid of what happens when we
46:31
change. Not be afraid of what we have to let
46:34
go in order to change. And not be
46:36
afraid even of the people who will, uh, oppose
46:39
it, because we will affect
46:42
their particular power platform.
46:44
>> Loren: Right, right.
46:45
>> Reverend Teresa Hord Owens: Um, and create a
46:47
culture where we're always thinking about
46:50
what's next and we're always
46:53
imagining where we go from here. One of the things
46:56
that the disciples did when we created our
46:58
denomination, uh, in this process
47:01
we called restructure in 1969,
47:04
um, the first two general ministers and presidents
47:07
regretted they didn't get as far as they
47:10
wanted because they had to compromise a lot just to make
47:13
the first thing happen. And my hope is with the
47:16
changes that we're making with the, uh,
47:19
covenant project, with the general board and general assembly,
47:22
that we've got to build in a culture
47:24
at the church that says we must always be
47:27
okay with doing things differently,
47:30
we don't have to do it the way they did. In 1969,
47:33
years from now, um, I don't want people
47:35
to say, oh, that was just a project we did when Terry was
47:38
GMP. I want just to look
47:41
back and say, oh, we actually are empowered.
47:45
Our forebears wanted us to understand
47:47
that we're always able to do something
47:50
differently. We're always able to imagine and
47:53
do church in a way that makes sense for the world we live in
47:56
today and not for the world that our grandparents
47:58
inhabited. Um, and that's, uh,
48:01
to me, the really important thing.
48:04
And for those of us who leave, we're not just here to manage
48:07
things. We have to create that
48:10
capacity so that people can
48:12
imagine what, uh, might be
48:15
possible. Um, I talked about that in
48:17
February of 2020 at general board, and three weeks later, we were
48:20
all in lockdown. So the new world, like,
48:23
landed in our laps. But the prophet
48:26
is engaged in futuring fantasy. And that
48:29
fantasy is not silliness.
48:32
Uh, it's something that doesn't yet exist. And
48:35
we have to help people see and feel and believe,
48:38
um, that that future is possible. That's the real work of the
48:41
prophet. Because nine times out of ten, that
48:44
imagination is intended
48:47
to dismantle systems
48:49
that keep, uh, people from being able to
48:52
flourish. The empire doesn't want you to dismantle the
48:54
system, but you have to be able to see it.
48:57
Because human beings with the power of God,
49:00
we can do anything. I really believe that the resources will
49:03
come, but we have to imagine it first and be willing
49:06
to let go of what is, uh, in order to move
49:09
in that direction.
49:10
>> Loren: Something else you said, uh, stood out to
49:13
me. You talked about the past is
49:16
not coming back. And
49:19
I've served in older congregations.
49:21
Demographically, many of our congregations in
49:24
our denomination have been around a long time with older
49:28
members, uh, and demographics. How do you
49:31
speak to congregants and members
49:34
who really, for good reason, appreciate
49:37
the past and what was when great ministry
49:39
and vitality happened,
49:41
uh, while also seeking to help them
49:44
build a new identity in our tradition together.
49:48
>> Reverend Teresa Hord Owens: Absolutely. Um, I'm
49:51
old enough to know, old enough to
49:54
get to the point where I'm even a little nostalgic
49:57
about even the music, right? The gospel music
50:00
that I listen to as a kid or as a child.
50:02
Sometimes I'm listening on the radio, it's uh,
50:05
like, ah, uh, that's too, you know, it's too
50:08
contemporary. I want the, you know, I want the old stuff. We all have that,
50:10
right? Um, I was a
50:13
teenager in the seven, in the late seventies.
50:16
I listened to seven on seventies, uh, on
50:19
seven radio, because that's the music that. The music
50:21
of my youth. Right. That speaks to us. So we all have
50:24
that. But we have to
50:27
remember that what the heart of the church is, is not our
50:29
buildings. And it's actually not even our
50:32
liturgy.
50:32
>> Loren: Mhm.
50:33
>> Reverend Teresa Hord Owens: It's not our organizations. It's this community that
50:36
we create to both worship and
50:39
serve not only each other, but to serve our communities.
50:42
So if our communities are changing, in order to
50:44
be relevant, we have to change.
50:47
Um, we cannot
50:51
be, um, so tied to. And this, to me, is
50:54
a spiritual problem, too, because if we're not
50:57
spiritually, uh, deep and
51:00
developing, um, then we see ourselves as just
51:03
a club that meets at 1030 on Sunday morning,
51:06
and we have coffee afterwards. Well, I can find
51:09
coffee a lot of places.
51:10
>> Loren: Yes. Better coffee, probably.
51:13
>> Reverend Teresa Hord Owens: I can find good music and I can connect with my
51:16
friends. You know, I have a 33 year old
51:18
son. He's even. I
51:21
have to deal with him and how he's thinking about
51:24
raising his son in a different way, because he's not
51:27
interested in raising his son in the same kind of church that
51:30
he grew up in, actually, because it's a different
51:33
world, a different adult. You know, we want to
51:36
pray with our grandson, do all the kinds of things, but that little
51:39
boy is going to be part of a different kind of
51:41
spiritual, uh, scenario. And it's
51:44
not about the buildings, um, churches that have
51:47
sold their buildings and created other more practical
51:49
structures. We want beautiful things. Yes.
51:52
And in some cases, we can
51:55
save and repurpose and create
51:58
new ministries inside of those things. But we have to
52:00
imagine, to go back to
52:02
1980, when we had 100 or
52:05
200 people here, and we had all the same things going
52:08
on. Denies, uh, the reality of
52:10
how, ah, society has changed.
52:13
And the numbers are even telling us
52:16
that people don't want the kind of
52:18
institutional, uh, gatherings that they've
52:21
had. I was at the naval base in Newport,
52:24
Rhode island, this, uh, past weekend. The naval
52:27
chaplaincy school is there, and we have, um,
52:29
three chaplains who were there, one of whom is an instructor. The other
52:32
is sort of the commanding officer of the chapel. So
52:35
he's like the pastor of the local chapel. I preached
52:38
on Pentecost Chapel, full of
52:41
young people, recent college graduates, who
52:44
are in officer candidate school. They're getting ready to start
52:47
or in the middle of chaplaincy school,
52:50
choosing to be there on Sunday,
52:53
fully engaged. Everybody's up singing.
52:56
They're with me during the sermon. Young
52:58
people are seeking after God. To say that they
53:01
don't want anything spiritual is not
53:04
true.
53:05
>> Loren: Yes.
53:05
>> Reverend Teresa Hord Owens: What they're seeking is our
53:08
constructs and contacts that speak to
53:11
how they engage in the world. Uh, and
53:14
we wanted that. When we were young people,
53:17
um, I rubbed up against
53:20
tradition in my own church as a young person and a young
53:23
adult, and so young people are doing that. So
53:26
we can never say that we want it the way it was,
53:29
because nothing is ever coming back in that way.
53:32
And, uh, when people say that, I'm like, oh, you're trying
53:35
to restore your club, and you want. You're more concerned about
53:38
members and how many buts you have in the seats
53:41
than you are about lives that are being changed or even
53:43
people don't want to join things. I had, uh, folks
53:46
who were very active in all the ministry that my congregation
53:49
did. These people were in their seventies. They just didn't want to
53:52
join anything. They gave, they were generous
53:55
givers. They were there for everything. They just didn't want
53:58
to join anything. So what, we're not going to let people
54:01
be active in ministry because they don't want to be a
54:04
member? Um, these are things
54:06
that we have to open ourselves up to
54:09
hear from people, why they
54:12
don't want to belong to these institutions,
54:15
but also recognize that it's not God
54:18
who has failed them. And it is not God that they
54:21
don't want. It's the institutions, it's the
54:24
human structures that we have created that are failing
54:26
people. People are seeking, they
54:29
just don't want what we've created. And
54:32
they need to create, and we need to move with them
54:35
to create other ways of being.
54:38
Church, um, that matter and
54:40
are relevant, uh, to future generations.
54:43
>> Loren: Yeah, thank you for sharing that. I, uh, know Ted
54:46
Smith and others have some great work on that. It was privileged to have,
54:49
uh, him on recently. Uh, last question
54:52
before we take a break. I want to give you an opportunity.
54:55
This is a podcast. Listen to it. Listened to by a
54:58
diversity of audiences. So give
55:01
your best. Like why disciples? Rah rah.
55:04
Go team speech here, if you would.
55:08
>> Reverend Teresa Hord Owens: I think the beautiful thing about disciples is that we
55:11
do recognize that we are
55:14
christians, but we're not the only christians. Uh, that
55:17
the covenant that Jesus established at the table, that
55:19
welcomes all to the table, is one that we must take
55:22
seriously. And so, therefore, we allow
55:25
for a wide range of theological
55:27
diversities. And we do believe that
55:30
we, uh, are better as
55:32
witnesses when we can walk together, even when we
55:35
disagree. Uh, we don't have, uh, a lot
55:38
of orthodoxy. We're not anti credal.
55:41
We just don't have a creed that would be a test
55:44
as to whether or not you belong.
55:45
>> Loren: Yes.
55:46
>> Reverend Teresa Hord Owens: Uh, we simply confess that Jesus is a Christ, son of the living
55:49
God. Proclaim him lord and savior of the world.
55:51
And we can wrestle with interpretation of
55:54
scripture, but we're the people that want to stay at the table
55:57
because we believe that kind of unity is not
56:00
unanimity, but it involves and allows more people
56:03
to be a part of this thing that we call the body of Christ.
56:06
And we take that very seriously. And, uh, we take
56:09
ourselves to the table as often as we can, most of us
56:12
every week, to remind ourselves of that
56:14
covenant that Jesus gives. So you may hear that
56:17
disciples have communion all the time. It's not just a
56:19
ritual. It's really a reminder,
56:22
um, that we really, uh, it's not
56:25
our table. We want all who desire to be
56:28
there to come.
56:29
>> Loren: All right, I'm fired up. Hopefully, our audience is
56:32
too.
56:32
>> Reverend Teresa Hord Owens: Good, good.
56:34
>> Loren: Uh, let's take a quick break here, and we'll come back with some closing
56:37
questions.
56:41
All right, we're back with general minister and President
56:43
Reverend Terry Hort Owen. So thank you so much for your
56:46
time. I, uh, always tell folks these closing questions.
56:49
You can take these as seriously or not as you'd like
56:51
to. Uh, this is the question, actually, I'm m most
56:54
excited about, because you are, to this point, now, the
56:57
highest denominational official I've
57:00
talked, uh, to and closest to what we might call a
57:03
pope. Uh, so if you were pope
57:06
for a day and you can interpret this however you'd like
57:09
to, what might you want to do with that day?
57:13
>> Reverend Teresa Hord Owens: It's kind of funny that you say that, because many disciples,
57:16
when they're trying to explain who we are and who I am, they will
57:19
say, well, she's our pope, GMC is our pope,
57:21
but with none of the authority that the pope has.
57:24
M. We're very much a covenantal church. So
57:27
if I don't have a certain level of direct
57:30
operational authority over the whole church, if I did,
57:35
we would have some sort of,
57:37
um. And I won't call it
57:39
catechism because I would
57:42
not want, um, there to be sort of
57:45
an intentional thing that would be taught, but I would
57:48
encourage, uh, and almost require
57:51
people to have some form of spiritual
57:53
practice in some form of Bible study. I really
57:56
feel that, uh, we're so biblically illiterate, and
57:59
as christians, that is devastating.
58:02
Um, I'm not arguing for a,
58:06
ah, dogmatic interpretation of the Bible. I
58:09
just want to equip people to even wrestle with it.
58:12
We can't talk ecumenically or even from
58:15
it on an interfaith basis unless we understand
58:19
what our text is saying and what Jesus
58:22
taught, what the hebrew prophets say, because
58:24
Jesus refers to them, that's what
58:27
shaped and grounded him. Without, uh, that
58:30
we're spiritually just weak as christians. And so I
58:33
would. I would want to find some way to insist
58:36
that there be some form of Bible study
58:38
and prayer, meditation, some form of
58:41
spiritual practice, uh, that starts
58:44
with our kids, right. Um, we send our
58:47
kids to camp, and that's one of the. Now all cultures
58:50
are into the outdoor camp, and there are many years
58:52
when black kids couldn't come to disciples
58:55
camp, years, uh, back. But that notion
58:58
of spiritual formation happening, uh,
59:01
within camp, that's really important. So we have to
59:03
find some way to do that spiritual
59:06
formation that, uh, would involve prayer and Bible
59:09
study. Um, that's one of the most important things
59:11
that a church can do. Um, and as just
59:14
simple believers, we're passing along a great
59:17
tradition, right, the stories of Jesus. It's
59:20
important, uh, not to get dogmatic or to
59:23
hem in anybody's theological imagination,
59:26
but there is a tradition of the stories of
59:29
Jesus. There is some, uh, and
59:32
even as disciples, there's something about us that we
59:34
want, that we want to remain
59:37
after we're gone. So I think that's probably the thing I would
59:40
do. And I would, um,
59:43
require people to
59:45
do conflict, um,
59:48
resolutions.
59:49
>> Loren: Yeah, that would be good. That would be
59:51
good.
59:52
>> Reverend Teresa Hord Owens: Um, because I think we did
59:55
a session with a group called crucial conversations
59:58
about how to have hard conversations with, uh, the leaders
1:00:01
of our general ministries. And more and more,
1:00:04
I find that my experience in doing some of
1:00:07
that in the corporate world, and also as
1:00:10
a dean of students who often had to have really hard conversations
1:00:13
with people and do it from a,
1:00:16
you know, I did need to make people
1:00:19
feel horrible about giving them bad news or trying
1:00:22
to move them to a different, uh, way of
1:00:25
being or a different way of thinking. Um, but
1:00:28
I think we need to learn how to have those hard
1:00:30
conversations and deal with conflict,
1:00:33
uh, in healthy ways. And I think clergy would
1:00:36
be well, and congregational leaders,
1:00:39
even lay leaders, um, that's one of the
1:00:42
biggest challenges I see, is that people don't know how to
1:00:45
manage conflict. We think that, oh,
1:00:48
that's the pastor, or
1:00:51
that's, you know, I can't say. And so when we
1:00:53
have misconduct or we have problems, nobody
1:00:56
wants to put the person in check who's causing
1:00:59
the problem, and we don't have healthy ways of doing that.
1:01:02
And so we suffer because we don't find a
1:01:05
way to root out and resolve conflict.
1:01:07
>> Loren: Well, I am comforted to know that
1:01:10
should our autonomy or voting, uh,
1:01:13
structures change, these are very reasonable.
1:01:17
The resolutions you would implement here.
1:01:20
Um, who is a theologian or
1:01:22
historical christian figure you would want to meet or bring back
1:01:25
to life?
1:01:28
>> Reverend Teresa Hord Owens: Oh my, there's so many. But I think I would
1:01:31
really like to meet Howard Thurman.
1:01:34
>> Loren: Mhm.
1:01:35
>> Reverend Teresa Hord Owens: Um, he is a self described
1:01:37
mystic. He's the person that
1:01:40
Doctor King carried his
1:01:43
work with him, um,
1:01:46
all the time. And,
1:01:48
um, usually lent
1:01:51
advent. Usually lent. He has some good
1:01:54
advent stuff, too, but I find that when I read
1:01:57
him, he is somebody who spoke from who
1:02:00
he was as an individual, as an african american,
1:02:03
but also,
1:02:05
um,
1:02:08
just spoke to that deep inner spiritual need that
1:02:11
people have to connect with God. And I would love
1:02:14
to learn how his life
1:02:16
experience came together in his ministry
1:02:19
and in his study. He's just got some profound things.
1:02:22
And I, as a leader, I would just love
1:02:25
to, I'd love to be able to write in a way
1:02:28
that moves people the way he moves.
1:02:30
>> Loren: Absolutely. Absolutely. What do you
1:02:33
think history will remember from our current time and place?
1:02:39
>> Reverend Teresa Hord Owens: I think history will remember
1:02:41
how divided this nation was.
1:02:44
M and
1:02:46
sadly, I think
1:02:49
history and our descendants will
1:02:52
ask, why didn't we do more
1:02:54
m to
1:02:57
counteract
1:03:00
some of the
1:03:02
injustice and inhumanity that we have
1:03:05
seen perpetrated? Why did we stand
1:03:08
still and, uh, not
1:03:11
do more to insist that,
1:03:13
um, to name the truth
1:03:16
and call a thing what it is? Uh,
1:03:19
and I think the pivot point, we talk
1:03:22
about the 1918 spanish flu.
1:03:25
Um, people will remember the
1:03:28
aftermath of the 2020, uh,
1:03:31
pandemic and how it changed all of our lives, and
1:03:33
how we even think about, you know,
1:03:36
airborne respiratory,
1:03:39
uh, viruses and changed the way we work.
1:03:41
It changed. And to have been alive
1:03:44
during this time, I, uh, think is, you know,
1:03:47
things really are different. Uh, we
1:03:50
see work differently, we think about our mental health
1:03:53
differently, we think about our physical health differently.
1:03:56
And so I think future
1:03:58
generations will lament the fact
1:04:02
that we didn't do more to address some of the injustice that
1:04:04
we have facing us in that we allowed
1:04:06
polarization to dominate.
1:04:09
>> Loren: Yeah, well, I usually ask the
1:04:12
final question, what do you hope for the future of Christianity? Let me
1:04:15
localize, uh, this a little bit. What do you hope for the future of the
1:04:18
christian church, disciples of Christ?
1:04:21
>> Reverend Teresa Hord Owens: Um, what I hope is
1:04:24
for a more connected church where
1:04:26
congregations understand they are part of,
1:04:29
we have congregational polity and you're free to call your
1:04:32
own pastor and do all the things, but we are
1:04:35
stronger together. And my prayer is that our
1:04:38
congregations understand that
1:04:41
by being connected there is space for
1:04:43
everyone and that we can do more
1:04:46
together. And that connection, uh,
1:04:49
will come, I think, from
1:04:52
deeper spiritual foundations, uh,
1:04:55
and, uh, that the church will prioritize,
1:04:59
uh, and seek to build, uh,
1:05:02
within itself stronger, uh,
1:05:04
biblical literacy and more
1:05:07
consistent spiritual practice. And I think those things
1:05:10
will allow us to be more connected. We're not going
1:05:13
to do much good in the world, just as little scattered congregations.
1:05:16
But, uh, when we come together, we
1:05:19
still have the freedom to be who we are at home and address the needs at
1:05:22
home, but then leverage our power
1:05:25
and our resources to really do good,
1:05:27
um, around the world, quite
1:05:30
honestly. Um, yeah, well,
1:05:32
I pray for a more connected church.
1:05:34
>> Loren: Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing that. Thank you so
1:05:37
much for your time. I appreciate the conversation
1:05:40
and your insights here. Uh,
1:05:43
uh, share, if you would, just how can people connect with
1:05:46
you, uh, if they want to get to know you better, connect
1:05:49
with the denomination, all those sorts of things.
1:05:51
>> Reverend Teresa Hord Owens: Sure, sure. Uh, you go to
1:05:53
disciples.org, comma, that's our website. And you go to
1:05:56
disciples.org ogmp. And you'll
1:05:59
get to my office, but you'll also get to all of
1:06:02
the 13 general ministries and our 31
1:06:05
regions. If you're looking for a disciples congregation
1:06:08
in your area, there's even a little search function that allows
1:06:11
you to do that. I'm on all the socials
1:06:14
except for TikTok. Um, I'm on
1:06:16
Facebook. I have a personal page, Teresa Horde Owens,
1:06:19
but my public page is Reverend
1:06:22
Terry Hord Owens. I
1:06:25
am on
1:06:27
Instagram, and I'm also on
1:06:30
LinkedIn as, uh, Teresa Horde Owens, but
1:06:34
I'm on m. I'm on threads
1:06:36
as Terry Hord Owens, I think is Terry Horde
1:06:39
Owens. And I'm on Twitter, but not on
1:06:42
Twitter's kind of gotten a little bit
1:06:46
more, migrated more over to threads at Terry
1:06:49
Horde Owens. So if you search t horde Owens or Terry Horde
1:06:52
Owens, you will find me on most social media.
1:06:55
>> Loren: Well, again, thank you so much for your time and conversation.
1:06:58
Uh, I always leave folks with a word of peace, so
1:07:01
may God's peace be with you.
1:07:03
>> Reverend Teresa Hord Owens: Thank you so much, Lauren. God's peace with you.
1:07:05
>> Paul: Also, thanks for
1:07:08
joining us on the Future Christian podcast. To learn
1:07:11
more about Lauren or the podcast, visit
1:07:13
future dash christian.com. one
1:07:16
more thing before you go. Do us a favor and
1:07:19
subscribe to the podcast. And if you're feeling
1:07:22
especially generous, leave a review. It
1:07:25
really helps us get the word out to more people about the
1:07:28
podcast. The
1:07:31
Future Christian podcast is a production of torn curtain
1:07:33
arts and resonate media. Our episodes were
1:07:36
mixed by Danny Burton. And the production support is
1:07:39
provided by Paul Romaglevitt.
1:07:41
>> Reverend Teresa Hord Owens: Thanks.
1:07:42
>> Paul: And go in peace.
1:07:47
>> Reverend Teresa Hord Owens: Um, shake up.
1:07:51
>> Loren: A pepper.