Latest / Babes, how did you get here / She Moved to South Africa to Find Peace—But Lost Her Closest Friends

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She Moved to South Africa to Find Peace—But Lost Her Closest Friends · Babes, how did you get here

• 0:00
  Now more than ever, people are not just rethinking where they live, but where opportunity actually exists.
• 0:06
  I am April Jackson, traveling the world, speaking with people who are building a life elsewhere.
• 0:12
  Carol Burns, entrepreneur, experiential strategist, and community builder, is shaping how brands show up in emerging markets.
• 0:20
  She's from Chicago, but she has lived in New York City for 14 years, and now Cape Town is her home.
• 0:26
  There is so much to cover, but first I have to ask,
• 0:29
  Babes, how did you get here?
• 0:32
  Music brought me here.
• 0:34
  Really?
• 0:34
  Yes.
• 0:35
  Ooh, tell me more.
• 0:37
  So I took my first ever trip to the continent in 2022.
• 0:42
  I went to Kenya and I was out with my girls at a club and I heard this music and I said, what is this?
• 0:51
  And she told me, it's Amapiano.
• 0:53
  It's a South African genre.
• 0:55
  And it reminded me so much of Chicago house music.
• 0:58
  And I said, I think I need to get to South Africa.
• 1:01
  So the following year, I planned a solo birthday trip, which is something I do every single year.
• 1:08
  And I came to South Africa.
• 1:10
  And within 24 hours, I fell in love with the country.
• 1:13
  And I said, this is the place.
• 1:17
  We're dropping new episodes every single week.
• 1:20
  So make sure you subscribe.
• 1:21
  You don't want to miss this, babes.
• 1:22
  And leave a comment and tell me, what do you want to hear out of my next conversation?
• 1:27
  Your support really helps this community grow.
• 1:29
  And if you know someone who's quietly been thinking, should they take that next big leap?
• 1:33
  Babes, send them the podcast.
• 1:35
  Yes, it was like definitely a reawakening for me.
• 1:38
  Do you think you would be here without COVID?
• 1:41
  I don't know.
• 1:43
  Probably not, because if COVID didn't happen, I would still just be going to my nine of five.
• 1:48
  I would still only do my one international trip a year.
• 1:52
  I would only give myself permission once a year to live instead of giving myself that permission every day.
• 1:58
  So when you decide that South Africa is the place for you, was it always Cape Town?
• 2:03
  Yeah.
• 2:04
  I spent some time in Joburg.
• 2:05
  Okay.
• 2:06
  You paused slightly.
• 2:07
  Yeah.
• 2:09
  Because I did, I did consider Joburg.
• 2:11
  Okay.
• 2:12
  But I always say if I could take the ocean and put it inside Joburg, it would have been there.
• 2:19
  Okay.
• 2:20
  But at the point in my life that I'm at now, Cape Town, I knew that Cape Town would be the place and I'm not going to lie.
• 2:26
  It's mainly because of the beach.
• 2:29
  The beach is my happy place.
• 2:30
  It's my calm place and,
• 2:32
  it's the place that if I just need to relax and think, it's the one place that I can go to.
• 2:38
  You said that initially you came, it was supposed to be two weeks.
• 2:41
  You get this opportunity and it's a sign that actually I'm going to make those moves.
• 2:46
  What does that entail?
• 2:47
  Does that entail giving in your resignation?
• 2:48
  Are you working in New York with a company at that point?
• 2:52
  And what are some of the adjustments or culture shocks that you're experiencing when it's now like, cool, this is going to be my new home?
• 2:58
  Mm-hmm.
• 3:00
  The main adjustment that I've had to make is being more patient because things move very slow here.
• 3:10
  I would say they move slower than they do in Chicago and New York.
• 3:13
  Right.
• 3:14
  So having patience, being more flexible with my time, which is very hard for me.
• 3:20
  I'm a very impatient person.
• 3:22
  I like things to be done now, now, now.
• 3:24
  Here, now, now means maybe tomorrow.
• 3:29
  That has been the biggest adjustment for me.
• 3:33
  Culturally, I would say luckily since I've been coming back and forth for the past few years, I've been able to just integrate into the culture pretty well.
• 3:42
  From a business standpoint, what has been very hard for me to adjust to is working with men.
• 3:48
  Okay.
• 3:49
  And the reason why is because I can meet a man and he is doing some really cool work.
• 3:56
  And I want to have a meeting with him and connect with him.
• 3:59
  And nine times out of ten, it turns personal.
• 4:01
  It turns into him trying to take me out on a date, him trying to sleep with me, to the point where I can't even work with this person because now I feel uncomfortable.
• 4:11
  And yes, maybe I can put my ego to the side and, you know,
• 4:16
  press his ego, whatever, but I choose not to.
• 4:20
  I choose not to.
• 4:21
  So it's been really hard for me to work with men.
• 4:24
  I find it a lot easier here specifically working with women because we're about our business and I don't have to worry about the additional side quest.
• 4:35
  In the States, would you have experienced the same thing?
• 4:39
  I have experienced it in the same thing.
• 4:40
  I don't necessarily think it is specific to South Africa.
• 4:44
  Sure.
• 4:45
  I don't.
• 4:46
  But I've experienced it a lot less in the States.
• 4:51
  And I also have experience where when I put my boundaries down, most of the time they're respected.
• 4:57
  Here, I don't always get that same respect.
• 5:00
  Right.
• 5:00
  So I have to choose to cut the relationship.
• 5:02
  Yeah.
• 5:04
  When you were telling maybe your family and your friends that you were moving to South Africa, did they view that as career progression or were they nervous that perhaps from a professional perspective you were going backwards?
• 5:17
  They don't even know what I do.
• 5:18
  Oh, yeah.
• 5:20
  They don't even know what I'd do.
• 5:23
  They were really excited for me.
• 5:25
  Okay.
• 5:25
  Before we continue, make sure that you join our community by clicking the link below.
• 5:30
  You will get to choose thumbnails before the episodes go live, pick our next destinations, even recommend guests.
• 5:37
  I really cannot wait for you to help me shape where this podcast goes.
• 5:42
  How is dating in South Africa?
• 5:43
  Hell.
• 5:44
  Oh, shit.
• 5:47
  Dating has been the hardest part of my South African journey.
• 5:49
  Like I know so far I've been making it sound like it's like doves and rainbows.
• 5:53
  It really has been like I feel like everything has been aligned and working out.
• 5:57
  Dating has been the hardest part of my journey.
• 6:01
  And the reason why is.
• 6:02
  Oh.
• 6:06
  I feel so unchosen.
• 6:07
  In South Africa?
• 6:09
  In South Africa.
• 6:10
  I feel so unchosen.
• 6:12
  And that's a trigger for me, something I'm going through therapy for.
• 6:15
  Sure.
• 6:15
  But one, I feel that there are so many gorgeous, beautiful women who have it going on here.
• 6:24
  And there's only there's a very, very small pool of men who meet the standards that I'm looking for.
• 6:31
  And then, you know, I feel like I get overlooked here a lot.
• 6:35
  So it's something internally that I have to work on.
• 6:37
  But also when it comes to how relationships are viewed, I feel that no one respects the sanctity of marriage here.
• 6:43
  The men or the women.
• 6:45
  Okay.
• 6:46
  Where as in we're cool having our side partners, even with our relationship, even with our relationships and the men and the women.
• 6:53
  So there are the women open about it.
• 6:55
  I was talking about this yesterday with a guy and he, I was like, I think women are better cheaters.
• 7:00
  Much better.
• 7:01
  Because men just, they're just not sophisticated enough in the cheating and they get caught too easily.
• 7:06
  Whereas also I think that there is a,
• 7:08
  societal expectation and not just here I mean yeah there's the expectation that oh your man's probably going to cheat on you whereas I think most men are perhaps falsely confident that their woman would never step out on them very falsely and therefore it makes it easier to do so yeah so when you're saying that they don't but I I don't know why I thought that they would be into marriage the sanctity of marriage well for the cultural aspect right absolutely I'm
• 7:34
  But day to day.
• 7:35
  But day to day, no.
• 7:37
  The amount of married men that have approached me.
• 7:41
  Has skyrocketed.
• 7:42
  And we know that they're married.
• 7:44
  I don't know.
• 7:45
  Okay.
• 7:45
  It comes out later on.
• 7:46
  It may come out later on.
• 7:47
  Okay.
• 7:48
  Or if I see a ring.
• 7:50
  No.
• 7:50
  It's an absolute no.
• 7:51
  Right.
• 7:51
  But it's gotten to the point where I have to ask and I even have to be a private detective to make sure that they're not lying to me about it.
• 7:58
  Okay.
• 7:59
  Yes.
• 8:00
  So the pool being small, like in Thailand or something, the pool is actually small.
• 8:04
  As in statistically, it's really small.
• 8:06
  Yeah.
• 8:07
  Here, is it that what you're looking for is small?
• 8:10
  What I'm looking for is small.
• 8:12
  What are we looking for?
• 8:13
  I am... What am I looking for?
• 8:18
  I am looking for a man who is in the space where he wants a life partner.
• 8:22
  Mm-hmm.
• 8:23
  Baseline, first and foremost.
• 8:25
  He wants a life partner.
• 8:26
  He's done with whatever the single life has to give him.
• 8:30
  I'm someone who has a great character who is open to loving and being loved and learning how to love me specifically.
• 8:41
  And of course, someone who's tall, brown, handsome, you know, all the things, all the things.
• 8:46
  And someone who's flexible, they have a flexible schedule.
• 8:49
  If we want to travel together, we can do that.
• 8:53
  We don't have to be stuck in, you know, whatever it is with work.
• 8:56
  We have that flexibility with each other.
• 8:58
  And I would say baseline, those are the things that I'm looking for.
• 9:02
  How long have you been here now?
• 9:03
  Permanently a year.
• 9:05
  Are we, when do we start getting concerned?
• 9:09
  I've been concerned.
• 9:11
  And you know what?
• 9:11
  Before I moved here, I knew that dating would be a challenge.
• 9:14
  Oh, you did?
• 9:15
  I knew it.
• 9:16
  But I think... Just from your travels?
• 9:18
  Just from my travels here.
• 9:19
  No, from my travels here.
• 9:22
  But I didn't expect it to be on this level.
• 9:25
  I knew from just like the minute I've interacted with, the way that I've seen people move...
• 9:29
  just being in South Africa.
• 9:31
  But I knew it would be a challenge.
• 9:33
  I didn't know that it would be this hard.
• 9:36
  To be honest, you're not the first person to say.
• 9:38
  Like everybody that I've asked this question has said that it's difficult.
• 9:43
  Do you want children?
• 9:44
  I do.
• 9:45
  So is it, what do we think?
• 9:47
  Cause like this lady I was speaking to in Thailand, she said that Bangkok is B-Y-O-M.
• 9:52
  I was like, what?
• 9:53
  She said, bring your own man.
• 9:55
  And she's like, because the landscape is as such.
• 9:57
  Should I have done that?
• 10:00
  Because she was just saying it's very much a...
• 10:03
  The landscape of dating in Bangkok is very much in favor of the man.
• 10:07
  Because of the numbers, but also because of culturally, there's this idea that American men are gonna come to Thailand and the woman is gonna bend to their every need, right?
• 10:19
  And the passport rolls.
• 10:20
  Exactly.
• 10:21
  And so I'm like, again, if I was thinking from my perspective, I'm like, oh, damn, I want a family, I want this.
• 10:30
  I think I'd be concerned because it doesn't seem to be an individual experience.
• 10:34
  It's one thing for you to be like, okay, cool.
• 10:35
  This is just my experience so far, but I've spoken with other people and maybe I just need to be a bit more patient.
• 10:41
  But this seems to be an actual thing.
• 10:43
  Yeah.
• 10:45
  Um, what was the question?
• 10:46
  Do you like, are you worried that South Africa is not going to bring you that aspect of?
• 10:52
  I'm a little worried that South Africa won't bring me that aspect.
• 10:56
  But if I get a man who's flexible, I, as much as I don't necessarily want to do long distance, at this point I could.
• 11:06
  Okay.
• 11:06
  Not for eternity, of course.
• 11:07
  Sure.
• 11:08
  But at this point I could.
• 11:10
  How often do you plan on, on going back to America?
• 11:15
  at least once a year.
• 11:16
  Okay.
• 11:17
  And in that time, is that also an opportunity for you to keep those professional connections that you were saying?
• 11:22
  Absolutely.
• 11:23
  Okay.
• 11:24
  You said that you started therapy, sort of around COVID time.
• 11:27
  Were you always open and
• 11:29
  The reason I say this is because I went through a stage where before therapy, I thought therapy was just for mad people.
• 11:34
  And then I got to a stage where I was like, well, actually, I need something.
• 11:37
  Right.
• 11:38
  Like I was so low that I just needed anything.
• 11:41
  I was willing to try anything.
• 11:42
  And then having been through therapy in different forms with different people, I appreciate that, you know, if your finger is broken, you go to a doctor and fix it.
• 11:50
  But why should we not use the same principle to address like mental health?
• 11:55
  And I'm just wondering, were you always in your family?
• 11:58
  Was it always an open thing?
• 11:59
  Because there's also the stereotype for Americans that everyone goes around and speaks about their therapist.
• 12:04
  However, I've noticed within the black community in America, that's not necessarily the case.
• 12:09
  Yeah.
• 12:10
  So actually, I was forced to go to therapy when I was a teenager.
• 12:13
  Okay.
• 12:14
  And I shut off completely during the few sessions that I had.
• 12:19
  And so since then, I had been, I thought I was anti-therapy, but I was really anti being forced to do something.
• 12:27
  When you say forced, your parents said that you had to go?
• 12:29
  Made me go.
• 12:29
  Yeah.
• 12:30
  What happened?
• 12:30
  They made me go.
• 12:32
  My dad was a madman.
• 12:34
  He's a mad man.
• 12:35
  I think that I was dealing with the things that a teenager deals with, a teenage girl deals with.
• 12:41
  And my dad didn't know how to handle it.
• 12:43
  So he thought that the best course of action was to force me to go to therapy.
• 12:48
  And because of that, I just shut down.
• 12:50
  And I had real issues that I needed to work out.
• 12:53
  You know, my mom didn't raise me.
• 12:55
  I was raised by my dad and my grandparents.
• 12:57
  Okay.
• 12:57
  So I was I was just shut off to it.
• 13:01
  But luckily, because mental health in the black community had been spoken about so much during that time that I started, it made me open to it again.
• 13:11
  And I think I just needed that moment to say, Carol, you really need to talk to someone.
• 13:17
  There are some things that you're dealing with internally that if you don't work them out, you're going to continue to repeat these cycles.
• 13:23
  Yeah, I think that's really helpful for also people who perhaps haven't had that experience.
• 13:29
  Yeah.
• 13:29
  And they, because as much as we do hear about mental health being spoken about more in a general sense, I do think that sometimes it's helpful for people to understand that you can start from a place of resistance and still through the process, find close, closer to, I don't want to resolve, but closer to a space where.
• 13:52
  You feel good.
• 13:53
  Yeah.
• 13:54
  In very basic terms, right?
• 13:55
  Like you feel good.
• 13:57
  Do you think that this move has helped work through some of the things that you've been carrying?
• 14:02
  The funny thing is it actually brought out more things that I've been carrying.
• 14:06
  Really?
• 14:07
  It brought out more things.
• 14:09
  I will say when I made the move, I checked in with myself daily to make sure that I wasn't running away.
• 14:15
  Okay.
• 14:16
  Because I didn't want to do that.
• 14:18
  I didn't want to run away to another country and still deal with the same thing.
• 14:21
  Right.
• 14:22
  Right.
• 14:22
  So I was very happy to realize that I wasn't running away.
• 14:25
  I was very happy and at peace with where I was.
• 14:28
  I just really wanted something different.
• 14:30
  And I was excited for something different.
• 14:32
  But being here, it actually brought out some of the things that I've worked on, but they're still a process.
• 14:40
  Um, such as abandonment.
• 14:42
  Okay.
• 14:43
  So it's like, it's brought that out where I really, I have to continue working through that so that I don't continue that cycle in relationships.
• 14:51
  When I do have a kid, I don't want to act out of survival in these certain areas that I'm still struggling in.
• 14:57
  Yeah.
• 14:58
  Yeah.
• 14:59
  It's a lot.
• 15:00
  I know.
• 15:01
  It's a lot.
• 15:02
  You know, it's funny because, again, healing looks very different for each individual.
• 15:09
  And from my perspective, I don't have a relationship with my mother at all.
• 15:13
  I came home one day, the helper told me she was gone and that was that.
• 15:17
  But the point is that I went through denial at first, right?
• 15:21
  Like I lied to my best friend.
• 15:22
  I said that my mother was just traveling.
• 15:23
  Wow.
• 15:24
  I was just because we hear about the mother child bond and it's supposed to be inseparable.
• 15:28
  And although you can be a child and be like, well, it's not my fault.
• 15:32
  At the same time, you do feel like it's your fault.
• 15:34
  Yeah.
• 15:34
  It just is what it is.
• 15:36
  But for me, healing, I knew that I was.
• 15:40
  healed if you like and I say in quotes because what the fuck does healed me exactly you know but yeah but when the story didn't feel like my own right so if I tell you the things that happened during my childhood I could have been telling you a movie right like it's the same kind of relationship in the sense that I'm just telling you a story I don't have this emotional deep connection it doesn't ruin my day it doesn't you know affect my behavior or feelings and I'm just
• 16:09
  I'm still figuring it out.
• 16:11
  Yeah, I'm still figuring out what healing looks like for me.
• 16:14
  I know that I'm going through the process.
• 16:15
  Yeah.
• 16:16
  But what it looks like, I don't know.
• 16:19
  And I'm in a similar spot with you where there are certain things that I can talk about.
• 16:23
  I don't cry about it.
• 16:24
  I don't feel triggered about it.
• 16:26
  So I know that I don't necessarily have the same emotional connection to it.
• 16:30
  But I don't always see not having an emotional connection to it as healed.
• 16:35
  Okay.
• 16:36
  I believe that, you know, it's just that.
• 16:38
  Right.
• 16:39
  You know, it's not necessarily affecting that emotional piece of you, but it may still show up in different ways.
• 16:46
  And the way that you move in relationships and the way that you make decisions, it may still show up in other ways.