Latest / Rich Valdés: This is America! / Interview: Dr. Keith Ablow (The Third Rail of Trauma)

Transcript

Interview: Dr. Keith Ablow (The Third Rail of Trauma) · Rich Valdés: This is America!

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: This is America. He's got the best head of hair
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: and podcasting. This is America with Rich Valdez.
• 0:12
  Speaker 2: All right, fundy that welcome back. It's Rich Valdez, happy
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: to be here with you. And I want to get
• 0:17
  Speaker 2: into something really really interesting because there's a name that
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: you guys know that I talked about in the previous segment,
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: and you guys know the name, you know the work,
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: and he's got a new book. His name, doctor Keith Ablow.
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: He's an executive coach and of course he's the founder
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: of the Ablou Center. But he's also got a brand
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: new book. It's called A Matter of Life and Death,
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: The Importance of Being Cain, Doctor Keith Ablow.
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: Welcome, sir, Rich. Thanks for having me pleasure you bet.
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: I'm really looking forward to this because, of course, believe
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: it or not, I was part of an interview that
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: you were on some years ago. I was filling in
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: on Bernie and Sid in the morning when my good
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: friend Bernard McGirk was still around and I just happened
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: to be there and we did this interview with you,
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: I think, for one of your previous books, and it
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: was really interesting. You had a lot of wisdom to shareness.
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: It was a number of years ago, but I'm excited
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: to have this conversation with you. And part of what
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: I want to get into is the book. Right, this
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: is an interesting title to me, a matter of life
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: and death, the importance of being kin. And if you
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: don't mind, give me a little bit on the namesake,
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: because I just find it really interesting.
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: Well, the book is about somebody who comes to a
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: point in his life where he thinks he doesn't have
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: a life left, and he goes about remaking himself in
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: an extraordinary way. New name, new appearance, new town, to
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: see whether that can jump start a whole new existence.
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: And the name Cain just came to me. I just
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: liked the name for him. So Alex Kane is the
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: main character and comes to this point in his life
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: where he's reevaluating everything, and he happens to have a
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: buddy who can orchestrate this new life for him, an
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: anonymous life under a pseudonym in a new town. That
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: questions for a psychiatrist like me are myriad. Do you
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: become more yourself when you enter that kind of a
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: world or do you lose yourself entirely? Do you go mad?
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: There's another wrinkle, which is some folks in the town
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: have been cast. He's told their actors and actresses rather
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: than just townsfolk, but he won't know who's who, And
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: so that brings up questions about authenticity. Who are we today?
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: Are we really the people that we need to be
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: true to ourselves? Or as Ai and has Facebook and
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: the rest of it made us all a bit like
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: characters in our own existences.
• 2:55
  Speaker 3: You know, it's fascinating. It sounds like a lot that
• 3:00
  Speaker 3: so many people could live.
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: Right While it's a work of fiction, you know, I
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: think I sense that it leans heavily on a lot
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: of your experience as a psychiatrist and as someone who's
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: helped a lot of people executives in particular, from those moments, right,
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: we're life and whether you're running a company, or running
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: a family, or running a hardware store on Main Street.
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: I think everybody reaches these points in life, at least
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: from doing radio people call my show, and from all
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: walks of life, and they hit rock bottom at different times.
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: And this seems like kind of a story of that.
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: Unpack that a little bit because I think you know,
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: you more than most have had a lot of experience
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: of dealing with that.
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: Absolutely. I have talked with so many people, and I've
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: had my own reversals and good fortune and the rest
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: of it in my life. People do pretty well in life,
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: first of all, is just sort of a base case
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: if they have their true stories in hand. But that
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: isn't as common as you'd think, because a lot of
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: what we live through we live through as young people,
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: and therefore we remember these episodes which might be disappointing
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: or questions about whether we're loved, or traumatic things we
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: go through we remember it almost as kids. We store
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: that away, and so we think we better never go
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: near that. That's radioactive. Yeah, third rail, third rail. But
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: until you do, you're kind of living as though someone
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: were to hand you a book and say, hey, here's
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: a novel. Read from pages eighty to one ten or
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: one fifty, and then you write the ending. We'd say,
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I feel kind of unsettled by that, anxious,
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: maybe even a sense of depression, like, man, how am
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: I going to write something true to this character? Well,
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: when the character's you, that's a problem, and most people
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: live that way. I like to restore people to their
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: full story and have them realize, hey, I can write,
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: metaphorically speaking, the best chapters ever going forward now in
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: a matter of life and death, the importance of being
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: kan It's a different twist, right, because here's a guy
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: with vast wealth and he can arrange for this experiment,
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: if you will, of living in a new town, new appearance, pseudonym,
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: new role, and even interacting with people who might not
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: be genuine their actors and actresses. He's told. And so
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: that's a hyperbolic example of what I've experienced again and
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: again with people when they come in, which is half
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: of their minds are like, you know, I'd like to
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: leap out of this particular role in my life. But
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: when they're restored to a full sense of competency and
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: capability to write the next chapter of their life, that's
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: a whole new day because they don't feel panicked like
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: I've got to get out of this. They feel like, Okay,
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: like most of us, I've got to do editing here
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: to my life story. Like all of us. It's a
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: constant improvement process, you.
• 6:17
  Speaker 3: Know, doctor Keith Ablow, this is very interesting.
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: And I mean whether me as a friend, like just
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: having my friends call me or having listeners call me
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: over the years, or just stuff that you see in
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: the media. It all sounds so the same, right, like
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: we kind of talked about a minute ago. But when
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: you talk about editing your life, I think most people
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: who were stuck, they don't know that they can edit
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: their life, or they're wishing they could. How do you
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: get them to that point of restoration where they say, yeah,
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: I'm going to hit the lead on this and you
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: know the next chapter is going to be fantastic.
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: Well, okay, so first, it helps a lot to witness
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: with them what they've already lived through. Some of the things. Again,
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: they might be things that they've not want to look
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: at or they've literally almost forgotten that are really important
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: in terms of their backstory. You can't create a character,
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: even you as a character, without really embracing the backstory.
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: And then it's a sense of empowering people. And sometimes
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: metaphor helps. You know, if you go to a movie,
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: one thing you'll never see is folks throwing away their
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: popcorn when the main character is in a jam and saying, hey,
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: let's get out of here. Tom Cruise is screwed. No,
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: everybody sits there and says essentially the same thing. I
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: wonder what's going to happen? Now, if you can imbue
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: people just with that spirit. And by the way, it's
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: not easy, but that's what I right.
• 7:47
  Speaker 3: Nobody sees themselves as Tom Cruise.
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: No one sees themselves as Tom Cruise, and it's not
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: so easy saying I wonder what's going to happen. I'm
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: going to be patient here and other, But that is
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: one metaphor that works. Another realization is a sense of
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: mystery and admitting to yourself, I really don't know what's
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: going to happen now. That can cut both ways. But
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: I really don't know what's going to happen. Might mean
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: that God, the universe, higher power is actually moving things
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: in the direction they need to move. You don't know
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: whether three chapters from now in your life story, you're
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: going to look back and say, wow, I never would
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: have thought that those painful things I lived through were
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: setting me up for these better days. But that's very common.
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: In fact, that's the rule, not the exception. The combatting
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: right the comeback is an American story.
• 8:48
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's true.
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: Why why does everybody root for that? Because it's inherently human,
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: it's like in our psychological DNA. And you know, if
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: you and I were having coffee for a couple hours
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: and reviewing our life stories, we'd find parts of our
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: lives that called on us to do both things. To
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: number one to say, I wonder what's going to happen,
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: right number two to admit, I don't know what's going
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: to happen, but it could be setting me up for
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: something good. And denying the pain won't do because hey,
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: yes it's painful. Some of life is really painful, and
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: empathizing with people around that, by the way, is also
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: very important and very powerful in their lives. That's a miracle,
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: by the way. You know, people say oh yeah, you know,
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: I feel what this other person is feeling, or when
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: I work with someone and I connect at that level
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: and somehow they get better. Right, I never really know,
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: well what was that? You know, there might be reductionists
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: who want to say, well, you know what you did,
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: you stimulated their We are up anephern system. Listen, We're
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: not going to find the miracle of empathy under an
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: electron microscope. We're not going to find it on an
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: MRI or a PET scan. We're going to find it
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: by realizing it's immeasurable. And when you connect with someone
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: for real and you dispense with all pretense and you
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: talk at a basic human level and you're with them
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: in that, and you're like, what I like to say
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: is one plus one can equal eleven. When two people
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: are working on the life story of one of them,
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: all kinds of magic unfolds and we have no idea why,
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: And I just prefer to call it sort of a
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: miracle or inexplicable. When that happens, we're not going to again.
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: You can talk about serotonin, but you're never going to
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: capture what that is.
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: Sounds like a god thing in many ways, where you
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: know what, it's people's faith, faith in them selves, faith
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: in God that really kind of get them through something
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: when they don't have faith in themselves.
• 11:05
  Speaker 3: Sometimes for sure, now.
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: You talk about it's not about being perfect, it's about
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: finding something real. Talk to me about that premise and
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: how A maybe somebody could apply that in their own life,
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: or b how can applies it in the book?
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: Absolutely well. Finding what is truly important for you is
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: life saving. It's life affirming. In life saving, you can't
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: really deny your core self if you live at a
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: distance from who you truly are. It opens up potential space,
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: which is the breeding ground for things like anxiety and
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: depression and the rest of the maladies that we give
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: labels to. But a lot of these labels in our
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: diagnostic manuals, what they're really talking about is this sense
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: of I am not myself. I don't feel it one
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: with myself. And so what do you have to do?
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: You have to do an inventory of when you feel
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: the most alive, maybe when you used to feel the
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: most alive. Sometimes people will almost forget, Oh my god,
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: that's true. I used to love to do this when
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: I was much younger, even a kid. Or hey, I
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: had this dream. I abandoned it because things went wrong
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: in my family and I thought I better not ever
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: take a risk. So you decode that and you say, well,
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: now you're free to pursue what really matters to you.
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: So when it's a process of discovery, what is that
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: When are you most alive inside? You'll know it, you'll
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: feel it. You might fear it too, but it's okay.
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: That's resistance, but it's okay, we can get through that.
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: And then the question is okay, so if you've identified
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: it just take a us step in that direction. Cain
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: does that in this book. Once he intuits wait a second,
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: this is more me, perhaps he starts taking smaller and
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: then more dramatic steps in the direction of who he
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: truly is now. Life does that in part for Cain,
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: because you can enter what you think is a stage
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: to drama. It doesn't matter in a sense because you're
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: in it right and you're bringing your whole life story
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: with you. That's we're method acting, and you know, one
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: of the characters in a matter of life and death.
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: The director, if you will, of this experiment says to Kane,
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: I don't think this is a good idea. We shouldn't
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: be doing this because when I direct films sometimes I
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: have to pull a guy off of another actor because
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: we've tapped into something so deep inside that it becomes
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: a real fight. And you don't know what's going to
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: happen here in this canvas or in this arena. Because
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: it could draw on things that are very deeply alive
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: inside you. You may think you're interacting with one of
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: the actors I placed in town, and not everybody is
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: only a handful of people, he says, But it doesn't
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: matter what you think. It can draw on things inside
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: you that you don't have complete control of because they're
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: so hardwired and they're so deeply felt. So that's true
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: for Cain in the book, and when those things happen,
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: he does come out of himself. What do we do
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: as human beings? It would be very good to notice
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: when we're moved, who are our heroes? What do we
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: admire in the world? When do we feel really energized?
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: Often by the way, you can do this for yourself
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: if you realize what you would do for one of
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: your kids, right, you'd never advise one of your kids
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: who you yearly love, to forsake their heart of hearts
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: and say no, I think you better get the bookkeeping
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: job and forget that that entrepreneurial spirit, forget that artistic spirit,
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: forget true love. You'd never do that. We tend to
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: do that to ourselves. We don't do it to people.
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: If we could literally say this is somebody I you know,
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: would give my life for well, give your life for
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: yourself also, right, like we only get this one. It's
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: hard to do it really is. It's hard to become
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: self actualized, but it is the work of a lifetime.
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: And that's what I'm trying to convey in the book.
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: This is our job, our path. Everybody's depending on it.
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: Like it's not just you. Like if which if you
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: were not in the seat you're in, if you were
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: not doing your life's work, a lot of things wouldn't
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: have up and for the good, like we need you
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: in that seat, we need you eliciting these stories. You're
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: a great interviewer. This is no accident. Like what if
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: you had said, no, I don't believe it, you know,
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: I don't know that, all.
• 16:15
  Speaker 3: Right, right, Yeah, that's not for me. It's not believe
• 16:18
  Speaker 3: or not. I did that. I didn't have those permitting beliefs.
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: I was trained from the school of Rush Limbaugh and
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: Mark Levin was my mentor, and he told me, you're
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: the show, Richie, You're the show. And I was always taught,
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: don't have a guest interviewing a guest.
• 16:31
  Speaker 3: Nobody wants to hear from them. They want to hear
• 16:33
  Speaker 3: from you. You're the show.
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: And it was very difficult to be quiet and listen,
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: to to share the space, to share the mic. And
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: as I mentioned earlier, off offline, I had an opportunity
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: to take over a really big show, and when I did,
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: I was very nervous and I was like, I don't know.
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: I've never really done a whole bunch of interviews. A
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: couple of fillains where doctor Keith Thablock called the Morning
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: Show once, but I didn't have a ton of experience.
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: Since then, I've interviewed presidents and secretaries of state and
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: all sorts of actors and really big people, and and
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: sometimes I surprise myself like a wow, actually it's made sense.
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: But I've always been rather critical of myself.
• 17:10
  Speaker 3: Truth be told in that arena.
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: That's interesting. I think sometimes that sort of self criticism
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: is a way to keep yourself evolving and getting better
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: and better and better. But you know, from my side
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: of the interview, I'm telling you you're a very good interviewer.
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: And it is not second nature to most people to listen.
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: That's basically, you know, if you want to be a
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: useful listener to people, an empathetic listener, you really start
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: to pull yourself and think, do I have the Do
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: I feel like I have the whole story? You don't
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: have to say that, but when you get the feeling like, hmm,
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: I'm not sure that's everything, right. You kind of lean
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: in and you're like, yeah, but wait a second, and
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: let's go a little deeper there. Now. If you do
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: that with people as their life coach, as their psychiatrist,
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: you help unburden them from the notion that there are unspeakables,
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: that they ought to remain at the surface. And sadly,
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: most people do stay on the surface with each other.
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: How are you, we say, I'm good.
• 18:24
  Speaker 3: Right, yeah, take care?
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: I thought you were married for twenty five years. Like,
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: things can't be perfect, right, but at dinner price. That's
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: why I don't get invited to as many dinner parties
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: as and but otherwise, sitting next to me is a thing.
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: But in fact, if we want to be kind to
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: each other, we would ask the next question and be
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: there to listen as you are. You know you're what
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: you're doing. Actually, people can learn from because being able
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: to sit and listen and ask the next question, the
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: next question that occurs to you instinctively right, requires self possession,
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: a quiet sense of observation of the other person. And
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: that's what partly heals and helps people because they feel
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: like I'm.
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: Safe, fascinating, never looked at it that way. But you
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: touched on something that I want to talk about. But
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: I want to take a quick pause right here. We're
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: going to come right back, fami yea. We are on
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: with doctor Keith Ablow, psychiatrist, executive coach, author of the
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: book Life or Death, and you make sure you got
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: to get that copy of that. But I want to
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: get into something you said, and we're going to come
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: right back. Don't go anywhere, all right, Famoa, Welcome back,
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: Rich Valdez. We're here with doctor Keith Ablau and we've
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: been having this pretty really. I'm going to say deep
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: talk on his book and drawing on his experiences as
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: a psychiatrist who's dealt with some of the biggest names
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: that are out there as as well as some of
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: the biggest executives that are out there. And doctor Abla
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: you mentioned something earlier. I just want to give you
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: what I got from it, and you tell me if
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: I'm right or wrong. But we talked about third rail, right,
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: things that people tuck away like the little kids and
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: don't touch that.
• 20:15
  Speaker 3: That was something you mentioned.
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: Then he talked about Kine, the character in your book
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: that was not sure who he was interacting with, and
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: you made this analogy to an actor, a method actor
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: that starts going in because it's hitting something real in
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: their own life. And in my head, I was thinking,
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: that seems like me dating somebody and she starts, you know, nicely,
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: and then all of a sudden, you get this crazy
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: response that's really outsized for the situation, and it's like, huh,
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: I think I hit a nerve there, and I had
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: nothing to do with me that had to do everything
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: with you, And I feel like that's at least one
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: way that I received that. And then they begin, you know,
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: fighting or whatever it is, or obviously these are those
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: childhood pains that you're talking about that were tucked away.
• 21:02
  Speaker 3: Did I A Did I get it right? And be
• 21:04
  Speaker 3: how do you deal with that?
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: Well, first of all, I think you absolutely got it right.
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: In a clinical situation, we would call that transference. Right,
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: So we say, you know what is transference? It's when
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: you react to someone generally your counselor therapist or someone
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: in a healing position, in an outsized way and it
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: seems inexplicable, like, Okay, I was two minutes late, but
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: you're saying you're quitting the coaching because of that. Tell
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: me who was late in your life other than me. Oh,
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: my dad was always laid at the bus stop. Okay,
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: got it. We never would have gotten to that if
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: there hadn't been sort of a mirror me. In your case,
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: you brought up dating. Yeah, Hey, people do this in life.
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: They don't just do it in counselor's offices. They do
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: it in life. And so somebody on a date with you,
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: they're bringing every relationship they've ever had in their whole
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: lives with them, the baggage, so to speak, the baggage,
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: the great stuff and the tough stuff, and the stuff
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: that they'd never imagine that they're bringing along with them
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: to this date with the great rich Falde's right. So
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: in any case, and by the way, because you're who
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: you are, because you're somebody who is a public figure
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: that has its own impact, Right, what does that mean
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: to someone? How do they account for that? Psychologically? Having
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: dinner with you is a different experience than maybe having
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: dinner with somebody else. And so what's the kindest thing
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: you can do is to realize this is not about me.
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: I've done my personal inventory. I really don't think that
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: I said anything or did anything to elicit this kind
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: of outsized response, and so you go into your semi
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: doctor Keith Ablomode, and you say, you know, I this
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: feels like a really big deal for your really emotional thing.
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: I'm not sure like that I said anything or did
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: anything to make it happen, but I'm just wondering, like
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: what does it mean to you? Like, yeah, I picked
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: you up a little late for this date and it
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: threw you for the whole time we're together. And I understand,
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: yes I was I was late, but hey, I'm just
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: wondering about you, Like, have other people not shown up
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: for you? Okay? That question can open up such intimacy.
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: So what are you doing? You're basically opening the door
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: for someone to say, you know, it's almost like they relaxed.
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: Ooh yeah, man, I got to tell you, you know,
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: a couple times this person didn't show up for me.
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: It was really painful for me. I don't know why
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: I reacted the way that I did. Now, that won't
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: happen every time, but it can happen quite a lot,
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: and allowing it to happen is a masterful moment, a
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: kind moment, a loving moment where you're allowing someone to
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: sit the opportunity to do a bit of reflection and
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: people want to do it, they just don't know if
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: they're safe to do it.
• 24:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: You mentioned earlier that restoration is something you described as
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: a miracle, right you. So that's when the miracle happens,
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: and that seems like the first step in the miracle.
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: And it's almost a T shirt that you should probably
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: be selling it. Leave space for the miracle, right, that's
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: what you got to do.
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: Let's do it together. We'll start the business sounds or
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: wherever we do, it doesn't matter. But yeah, exactly. But
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: you know, in a matter of life and death subtitle,
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: the importance of being Kane, the importance of being Caan
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: means like you've got to be yourself. Right, he has
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: these moments, There are miracles that unfold, inexplicable moments in
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: this experiment that bring him closer to himself. He's not
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: doing it. The question is how does that happen and
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: why does it happen? Well, we don't know. Why would
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: he bump into somebody who elicits a memory for him
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: or who moves him further along toward his real gifts
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: in the world. Why? Well, because the whole of life
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: is a bit of a miracle, and synchronicity really does
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: exist in the universe. Like it's hard to deny that
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: there aren't moments where you feel like, wow, that feels
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: like it was meant for me. Yes, it was. I
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: don't think there's any use in denying that. I think
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: rather celebrating it. And again, I don't know. I mean,
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: I've seen people. I've been very fortunate to be in
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: the presence of people, my clients, who remake their lives.
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: Do I think that they taught me something in school
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: to make that happen. They taught me to be quiet
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: and listen and ask the next question. But there are
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: bigger forces in play than me, and I've always and
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: I'm just happy to be part of the process.
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I get that right, happy to be here for
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: the ride.
• 26:28
  Speaker 3: You mentioned talking to clients, and.
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: This is something that you have a ton of experience,
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: And give me a couple of examples, whether it's personified
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: through Caine in the book or you know from just
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: you know, your memory. But talk about some big changes
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: and you don't have to mention who they were if
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: you can sure, but talk about some big stuff where
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: somebody came you know whether it's somebody significant or somebody
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: well known that I think the audience might relate to,
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: because I think oftentimes what you said people do feel
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: safe to share. I think oftentimes people think they're the
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: only one going through what they're going through. And what
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: I find in life is I've talked to a lot
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: of people, all sorts of things, very famous psychiatrists, you know,
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: not so famous callers that are driving a truck down
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: a highway, and the problems are the same problems.
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: The problems are the same problems. And once you realize that,
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: and once you become open to hearing and seeing in
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: a new way, it allows you access to say and
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: do things that might allow people to tell you who
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: they really are. So here's an example. Somebody who came
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: in I won't say who it is, was a well
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: known person and very tough like every mannerism was semi threatening,
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: like when I looked at a move when I heard
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: his tone of voice, so I said sit down. When
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: he came in, I have a seat. He said, no,
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: I'm not. That's not my name Tony. I said, no, no, no,
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: I mean Tony soprano. What are you getting at, I said, dude,
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: every single mannerism, the way you're dressed, the way you're moving,
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: your tone of voice. It's like you're going to war
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: every second of every day. What happened a gangster type? Yeah,
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: what happened to you? What happened to you? Were you bullied?
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: Were you beaten? Now this is right out of the gate, right.
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: I've known you for forty seconds and you're asking me
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: all these things.
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: And the guy really kind of dissolved and said, yeah,
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: you know, he said, yeah, my dad, this this, this,
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: this right now. You'd never get there. If you just
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: backed up and said, this guy's threatening, let's get out
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: of the way, right, you'd never get there if you
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: bought the act.
• 29:03
  Speaker 3: You got to you got to be to call people
• 29:06
  Speaker 3: on their bs.
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: You got to call it, and you got to register it.
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: You got to listen to yourself as you're listening and
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: watching other folks and think, huh, here's someone I wouldn't
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: mess with. Okay, good. That's the beginning of a thought, right,
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: or an interaction. The question is if you're a healer
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: or you aspire to be one, or an interview or
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: a journalist questions why why would he give that impression?
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: Right off? The bat, what value is there for that
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: for that person? And very often the issue is the opposite.
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: There's a vulnerable person who has to telegraph to the
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: world that he or she's not that vulnerable person. Tough,
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: you thin, tough, tougher than you, tougher than you think
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: or write, a lot, more fragile in fact than you think.
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: And the truth is we're all fragile. Why are we
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: all fragile? We're all fragile because we don't know what's
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: going to happen tomorrow. We're all mortal. We love others
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: in our life. Everybody seems to have that experience where
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: that we cherish certain people in our lives. That means
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: we're not to give people bad news, but it means
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: we're dangling from a thread kind of at all times,
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: because we can be deeply hurt at all times. If
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: God forbids something and I'm knocking on with we're to
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: happen to someone that we love even more so than
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: to ourselves often, which is another miracle. We don't know
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: what that's about, but we celebrate it, and we should
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: so the fact that we are in that position should
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: make us. As Charles Bukowski, the Great poet said, you
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: know should make us kind to one another. But it
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: but we should, so we should. We should endeavor to
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: become better listeners, and people should listen to themselves. I
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: guess that's the point of the book, is one way
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: or another, listen to yourself enough to become yourself. And then, yes,
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: it takes some bravery and courage, and it might take
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: teaming up with someone in order to achieve it, whether
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: it's a coach, a partner, a therapist, a friend, as
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: someone who can help you take those steps that feel risky.
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: But there's no greater risk than not becoming the person
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: you were meant to be. There's no greater risk.
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: Listen to yourself, be yourself. Excellent advice from doctor Keith Ablo.
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: Make sure you check out the book A Matter of
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: Life and Death, The Importance of Being Kine and Doc,
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: I want to talk about you, right. A lot of
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: times we start with the biographic. I figure we'll end
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: with it. The late great Larry King would oftentimes say,
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: you know, how does a nice kid with a great
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: haircut like that end up becoming one of the most
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: prominent psychiatrists? And the ups and the downs and everything
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: that comes along with it and being an executive coach.
• 32:15
  Speaker 3: Tell us a little bit about that story.
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: Okay, well, first of all, I have one skill. That's it.
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: I have a sixth sense for narrative. I don't know
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: where it comes from. I have no idea. I'm very
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: glad to have it. It got developed through writing coaches
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: and psychiatry training and the rest of it. But really,
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: when you think about it, is what we've been talking about, Oh,
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: I did my trump thing. Really, when you think about it,
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: it's the same thing whether you're writing a novel or
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: similar counseling a client working with a company to perfect
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: what their story, their narrative, what's the next chapter? What
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: can we learn from the past chapters. I love having
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: that sixth sense so that when I feel like that
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: is not it, that is not the next chapter, or
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: that's not two chapters ago. You guys are withholding things
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: from me, I can get a little irritated, but generally
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: what I get is I double down. I'm a borrower
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: right for the truth. So how have I expressed that
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: in my life writing trying to help people out as
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: a psychiatrist, now as a life executive coach and trying
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: to get the narrative, right, And I've done it with
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: a lot of interesting and some very famous people, Cabinet members,
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: first family members, actors, sports figures. Doesn't matter what their
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: politics are, doesn't matter from where they've come, because in
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: the end, people are fascinat people are worthy. I don't
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: think anyone's born evil, right, And we're very powerful in
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: one another's lives, very powerful. One tiny anecdote, I met
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: with a guy in prison who had almost killed a
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: woman beaten. This that a horrible case, but he hadn't
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: killed her. And so I'm done with the interview evaluation,
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: and I thought, I got to ask. I said, you know,
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: I have one more question, and he said what I said,
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: you didn't kill her? And she identified you. Why didn't you?
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: Why didn't you kill her? Just wondering. He said it
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: doesn't matter. I said, I know, but tell me anyhow.
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: That's ridiculous. He said, tell that it's okay, just tell me,
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: he said, you know, this is the weirdest thing, he said.
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: I was in third grade and one of the teachers
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: there said to me, hey, I know what everyone's saying
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: about you, because he had add and this and that
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: was me too. Kid, there you go, I'm sure I
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: do too. I know what they're saying about you, but
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: I think you're a good kid. He said. I don't
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: understand it, but I heard her say that again when
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: I was going to kill that woman. So there's a
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: third grade teacher who you know, who will presumably not
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: know that something she said to a young boy saved
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: a life when an adult male whose life had spiraled
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: into darkness decided I'm not going to kill this woman
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: because somebody believed in me back then and thought I
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: was a decent human being. So when you're interviewing people,
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: or when I'm working with people and thinking about their
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: narratives and their stories, we have a beauty, a full
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: opportunity to say or do things that people can take
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: with them, whether they whether it's a guest of yours
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: or you yourself, or listeners. But you know you're the maestro here, right,
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: So you're listeners. You have a big audience and you
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: can reach not just reach that audience, but reach that audience.
• 36:22
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: Wow, Wow, that's an amazing opportunity and you do it,
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: which is well darn good.
• 36:33
  Speaker 3: You're the man, doctor Keith Ablow.
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: Let people know how they find you, how do they
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: get the book, how do they learn more about the
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: Aablow Center?
• 36:39
  Speaker 3: How do they hire you to be their executive coach?
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: So it's easy, just go to Keithablow dot com. You
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: can email me info at Keithablow dot com. As to
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: the book A Matter of Life and Death, The Importance
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: of Being Kane, Amazon dot com, Barnesannoble dot com, local
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: bookshops mostly online to pick up the hardcover, the paperback
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: or the ebook. And again, it's that's just another way
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: that I like touching people. Touching down with people is
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: the books. I think of them reading them, and I think, man,
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: I hope it registers. I hope they're changed by it. That's,
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: you know, That's what I think I'm here for.
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well it sounds like a good story to me,
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: doctor Keith Ablo.
• 37:31
  Speaker 3: I want to thank you for being here. Folks.
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: Make sure you check them out. You are a gentleman,
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: a scholar, and a patriot. I appreciate you, sir.
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: Thanks