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Transcript

Monkeybars · System Speak: Complex Trauma and Dissociation

• 0:12
  Speaker 1: Welcome to System Speak, a podcast about Complex Trauma and Dissociation. It's our story, our learning, and the ideas we've been working with as they've unfolded over time. Earlier episodes give context for where we are now, and current episodes may engage more advanced material, harder content, or reference earlier conversations. A few things to remember as you listen. The podcast is education, reflection, and storytelling.
• 0:41
  It's not therapy, and listening doesn't create a relationship. Although I am a therapist, I am not in that role here, and nothing that I share is individualized clinical advice. Every system, every internal world, all of your own stories are all different and you take up your own shape. What we share about ours won't translate directly to yours. It isn't meant to.
• 1:06
  We're all different, and all of our stories matter. As always, take care of yourself during and after listening, and we are so glad you're here.
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: You guys, I have had my intake and a couple of sessions with my new therapist, and I just wanna talk about how that feels good for a hot minute. Can I just say what a relief it is and that things are going really well and that it feels good to feel good about it? Is that okay? Is that a thing? Does that even make sense?
• 2:00
  Our new therapist has been very gentle and caring and yet also pushing me, but not in an overwhelming way. And also, I have not yet left a session where I did not feel better than when I got there. It's like a campsite, you guys. Like, you're supposed to leave it cleaner than you found it. Like, this is what therapy is working for me right now because I feel better than when I got there even though also there has been plenty of crying every single time.
• 2:53
  It has been plenty hard in lots of different ways. It has been so so good, and I cannot tell you. In fact, I told her today that I feel like I have said for so long, I feel like I'm on the Monkeybars, and I just keep going to the next one and the next one and the next one. And, like, I am so weary of just hanging in there and waiting for help to the point where I cannot hold on anymore. I cannot hang on anymore.
• 3:35
  I do not mean suicidality in that I have a plan or I'm going to do something or have any intent. I mean that I know I cannot survive this without help, and I know that I cannot keep going by myself. That is just accountability for myself. That is transparency with me and the world around me. That is just being honest and having the courage and the ovaries to say, I need help with this, and I cannot do it by myself anymore.
• 4:13
  In fact, that is part of what's retraumatizing is that I have always had to be my own parent. I have always had to be the one who's functioning. I have always had to do all the things on my own. I have had to hang in there, not need anything, not receive anything, and yet also somehow function in the world, and I'm done. I cannot.
• 4:41
  That is not okay for me. It is not healthy for me. It is not healthy for my relationships, whether that is with my children or partner or, like, anything, work. Like, no. I need healthy structure.
• 4:58
  I need support. I need good boundaries. I need all the things. Right? And so this is giving me that in that for the first time in four years.
• 5:23
  You guys, it has been literally almost to the day, four years since we left our previous therapist. Our first therapist. Well, not our first first therapist. Thank you, Trauma. But our first therapist on the podcast.
• 5:41
  Well, she was never on the pod well, she was on the podcast once. Oh my goodness. I can't even talk about all this. So the point is for the first time in four years, I don't feel like I'm on the Monkeybars anymore. I feel like I have landed, that it is safe to let go, that it is safe to land, that I am not going to be left sprawling on the ground.
• 6:08
  I can share pieces of me, and she is not going to spill them. My therapist is human. There will be things that happen. I know that. Therapy still sucks.
• 6:19
  I totally agree with that. Therapy is stupid. I hate therapy. And, also, it is so very helpful, and I need it. And this has been so good for me.
• 6:33
  I have been safe. I keep going. And in fact, today, I went in person. So that was a lot and yet also somehow manageable. I don't know why.
• 6:49
  What is this magic of this therapy office? I don't know. I couldn't tell you. If I could tell you, we would copy it and share it with the world. I don't know.
• 7:00
  But it's working and that feels good. So our first session, she asked a lot of questions about our history and different things, which is often part of the intake and assessment. Right? So we kind of knew that would be coming, got through that as best we could, and also felt safe enough and settled enough and landed enough that we spent the hours after that session in the afternoon answering the questions that we could not answer during therapy, at least a little bit. So those of you in the community or on Patreon know that we sometimes draw this profile picture of just an outline of a profile, like, not necessarily ours specifically, but a girl, a person, a body, like a human profile of, like, the face.
• 8:04
  Right? And the question from the therapist is on the outside. And then on the inside, there's nothing filled in. It's not even, like, a whole head, just the face profile. And in the the back, like, the head, we do all the drawings or all the quotes or the things that I hear in my head or that parts one to add or share, and we did that and, like, gave it to her, like, off.
• 8:35
  You guys, it's like a baby box. You know those you know you know those places at the fire station where you can drop off your baby? This is terrible. That's what it feels like though. There's a cabinet at her office.
• 8:53
  I can go anytime and just leave presents. Leave my baby. Not really and not all the time and not actual presents. It's not like a phonic thing. It's very appropriate boundaries.
• 9:08
  I mean therapy, like we dropped off a painting. We dropped off a notebook. Just leave them there. They're safe. Allegedly, they get to the right person.
• 9:16
  I don't wanna know who sees them between me and my therapist or if my therapist is just able to get it. I don't know. I'm just saying that it is working. All the things, it is working. So we were able to do those drawings, and not only that, but the remnants of the notebooks, the things that we had left that did not make it into the books, we were able to also give to her.
• 10:00
  We have not done that with any other therapist, but we dropped them off. We haven't talked about it yet. That would really just be too much. But we did it. We gave them to her, left them there, and she acknowledged receiving them, which I think we needed, and I didn't know we needed that.
• 10:21
  But she did say that in session. But, otherwise, there's no contact between sessions. So I'm just learning the rules and the boundaries and all the things. Today, she also this is completely random and off topic, but today, she also asked, in context, like, in conversation, it led to the question. So it wasn't just startling, except also it took me by surprise of, like, how I reference other parts of myself, of us.
• 10:56
  And I didn't know how to answer that because, like, do I say parts? Do I say self states? Do I just reference the others? I was like, well, they have DID. I don't have DID.
• 11:12
  I don't know what you're talking about. But, also, I've learned so much about myself, and I wanna have space for myself, and I wanna include myself that sometimes it just feels like especially with blending, like, know that this is just me. It's just that I cannot yet contain all of it by myself or control all of it by myself. And I don't like control because that sounds very oppressive, and I don't mean controlling. I just mean I don't choose who is doing what where.
• 11:50
  Like, that is not yet intentional. But I am working really hard on being inclusive and including everyone and what that looks like and expanding that. So I don't know what to say or how to say it. So I wasn't very good at answering that question. And I I and I don't know that I did answer a question.
• 12:19
  Maybe I did, maybe somebody did, maybe not. I'm not really sure, but it brings up the question, how do we talk about it? And part of what's tricksy about it is that is that sort of to make light of it and yet also acknowledge it. One thing we talk about with is like shirts. Like, you just put on this shirt or you put on that shirt.
• 12:43
  And so when I talk with her about it, sometimes instead of parts, we say shirts. Like, I don't know. Like, I don't know how to explain it. So how do I talk to my therapist about putting on shirts? That's not appropriate.
• 13:00
  So I'm not talking about that. So how do you say that? I don't know. But I didn't find words for it, but we talked about that. I also talked about the podcast and the book only in that I did listen to the podcast with the one therapist that I do know about the book and the outline of the book and how that happened with the notebooks and sort of told that story.
• 13:32
  But also that those are just postcards from time. Right? Like, there are things I have not processed, things that I need to, I wanna say clean up, but that also sounds like what is there is bad and I need to get rid of it. And I don't mean that. I don't mean that.
• 13:49
  I need to tend to those things, to those parts of me, to those shirts. I need to tend to those. And so see, here's the thing about shirts. Let me go back to shirts for just a minute. Here's why we say shirts.
• 14:10
  Because it's not the same as a mask. Like, you're not necessarily hiding something or trying to put on something false. It's literally this presentation, especially with blending. It's literally this presentation that gets put on. Like, you wear one thing to work, and you wear another thing to play with the kids, and you wear a different thing to chill on a Saturday morning.
• 14:40
  And so it's more like that, like, Except also I know that it's more than roles as well because self states. Right? Like, experiences and emotions and affect. Like, there's so many there's so many nuances to it, but shirts feels way less clinical. That's where shirts came from.
• 15:00
  So, anyway, we talked about all of those things, which feels good. Here's why it feels good because it feels like even though she doesn't yet know everything about me like your therapist eventually does, I feel like she knows enough of an outline with me, and I know enough of an outline of me that we're actually kind of on the same page about what we need to dig into and where even if we're also gonna pace that out and it will take a long time and a lot of hard work. Does that make sense at all? The other thing that feels really good is not just the pacing, but that I am able to talk about things happening in now time and memory time because there's a lot of complication. Let's just be honest.
• 15:58
  There are a lot of complicated things in my now time life right now and not even bad. But, like, for example, in just this week alone, just this week alone, we have closed out the Oklahoma house. Nathan and two of the boys have moved in with his parents to care for them. Nathan and the boys have driven up here across the country to bring the rest of the things from the girls and to visit for a week or five, like, don't even know what's happening. We have moved out of our deployment house into the new house that used to be an Airbnb and came with furniture and a full pantry and a new fridge that they also filled.
• 16:45
  So, like, so many things have happened just this week, and this is like like, it's hard to catch up to myself in the present next week. We start the new job. It is hard to catch up with myself in the present and address memory time things. So I know that we're just getting started. I know that in some ways we're starting over and also in lots of ways we're not.
• 17:17
  Like, I do get to bring to therapy what I already know. I do get to bring to therapy what I have already learned, and I can speak to that. And so for example, when I started therapy with what I call my first therapist, that I mean the first therapist I talked about when I started the podcast, my previous Kelly, right, When I started with her, part of what was so scary and disorienting and confusing was that I didn't know what was happening to me or why, and I couldn't make it stop. Now I still can't make it stop. I'm not that far along in therapy, and I don't know that I want to make it stop.
• 18:10
  Like, make it stop. That feels like so oppressive again. Right? And also, I no longer I do have some anxiety sometimes, of course, and there's other trauma responses for others. I get that.
• 18:25
  But I don't I'm not like a walking panic attack like I used to be. Not like I was, like, ten years ago. Because even when these things happen, I understand what is happening and why it's happening. I may not always know who or, like, why now, but, like, oh, that's because of another shirt. That's because of dissociation.
• 18:55
  That's because of a trigger. Like, even when I don't know the details, generally, I understand what's happening and can be more gentle with myself about it. Does that make sense? So going into therapy now is like, okay. I already know what dissociation is a little bit.
• 19:14
  I've learned a lot about trauma. I've learned a lot about how the brain works. So I even am going into this with compassion for myself, which means I can answer even a little bit harder questions because when I feel those responses even somatically, meaning, like, in my body, I can tolerate it differently because I understand what is happening. So let me think of an example from therapy today. She asked me something about my faith tradition and the church I joined.
• 20:02
  And because we had we were talking about how I did not have consent to get married. And we talked about how, like, I had only seen him for less than two weeks in person, a week in June and a week in August, and then we got married in October. And each of those weeks was only, like, three days. So I only saw him, like, six or seven days in person before I ever got married. So Nathan and I Nathan was living in New York writing musicals.
• 20:34
  Right? So he was living in New York. I was in Oklahoma because that's where I was assigned back for my doctoral internship. So I was in Oklahoma. He was in New York.
• 20:47
  I began working for the church. I think I already shared this story. I began working for the church in the counseling office and it was his cousin who was like, I have a cousin, you should marry him. And I have all this trauma fawning, other trauma responses, and also he was my boss and also a leader in the church. So all these questions about, like, how much consent did I actually have in the process?
• 21:14
  And also because he was good and kind, that felt safe enough that, like, I did consent to his kindness. I did consent to his friendship. Right? Because he's a great guy. You guys know him.
• 21:29
  He's a great guy. He's very kind. He's very lovely. Good conversation, those kinds of things. So those pieces we could get long distance, like emailing back and forth or writing letters or something.
• 21:42
  But literally, he came from New York to visit his parents for Father's Day weekend. I saw him, like, two of those days, three maybe, and then he flew back to New York, was there all summer. In August, they sent me to New York to visit him. I stayed with his bishop. I visited him two or three days there in New York, flew back to Oklahoma.
• 22:08
  And then in October, he flew to Oklahoma, and we got married, and then he flew back to New York. You guys, my therapist is like, it's not really a normal thing in 2012. Like, she's so funny in, like, this super subtle way. Like, let's talk about that for a minute. So so we were talking about this, but in this context, she asked about my faith tradition.
• 22:39
  I mean, she knew what the faith tradition was. She wasn't asking what it was, but we're talking about how, like, how was that even a thing. Like, if I had already come out in college and aside from dissociation, which plays into it, I know. But if I already knew I was gay and if I had already come out to my family, then how did I get myself into a situation of joining a church that is like, no. You should not be gay.
• 23:08
  That's bad. So we were talking about this. And in the past, if I had felt anything, like when I first started therapy, if I had felt anything in response to just her question, I would not have been able to tolerate that. So then it makes it hard to even do the therapy work because I'm also having to stay safe in the moment. I'm also having to learn to tolerate my feelings and all of that.
• 23:35
  But I did that work during the pandemic. Right? Like, the pandemic for us, you guys who have listened to the podcast know that story, it was brutal. It was so brutal, but it gave me the muscles because I survived that, because I did that work so intentionally even though it was brutal and even though there were so many circumstances I could not control. Because of this, I grew the muscles and the capacity to tolerate my feelings.
• 24:09
  So when she asked me that, I began to cry. I felt anxious, and also I could keep talking. It was kind of amazing. You guys, I saw the evidence of that work finally happening, not just in real life that continues to be hard, but in therapy. And so I could sit with her question and it's like, well, I mean, some of it's obvious, right?
• 24:35
  Like there's a reenactment later where I already had been exposed to religious trauma. So what's some more? Let's do some more. Part of it is fawning. I thought if I could get good enough at being good, and this church is really hard to get into, so if I could be really good at being good, then maybe I would be good enough that my family would love me.
• 25:00
  Well, that's false. That didn't work at all. At all. That did not work at all. So what it's this, oh, I'm not betraying myself.
• 25:12
  I'm just being good at being good, which is improving myself and progression. So so then I'm not betraying myself. I'm making myself better so it counts. I can do it. That's what the thought process was if we're gonna break it down really simply.
• 25:28
  And then there's the third layer, which I've talked about before, that because my family was not a member of this church, they actually could not get into it. And so, like, literally could not go into some of the buildings. And so I could be there safely in a way that I had never been safe before. Does that make sense? So we are talking about these layers, and I was able to hold space with that and keep going and keep talking about it and feeling it, which by the way, parts or shirts or self states aside, that is integrative.
• 26:09
  That is inclusion. The fact that I could think, remember, and feel all at the same time, you guys, that was healing. That is healing. That's what I'm talking about. It was amazing.
• 26:23
  Now this was a tiny, tiny little sliver of a tiny, tiny little aspect of a tiny dot in the timeline of everything, but it counts. And it's practice for harder things. Like, I am so stinking proud of myself, and it feels good even though it was hard because I can tell, okay. She's gonna help me regulate. She's going to support.
• 26:53
  And, I'm doing the work myself. It is my ship. I can pass anytime I want. I don't have to answer anything. And also, when I do feel feelings or have a flash of a memory, I'm still safe whether we deal with it right then or not.
• 27:14
  You guys, that's why I landed safely. I I don't even know what to say. It was so good. And I am so grateful, and I am so relieved. There are not even words, except I guess I just found like a lot of words.
• 27:48
  So see, I'm learning. I'm learning to see what there is to see and to know what there is to know and to speak my truth for myself even if a little bit at a time. And that feels good.
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for listening to us and for all of your support for the podcast, our books, and them being donated to survivors and the community. It means so much to us as we try to create something that's never been done before, not like this. Connection brings healing, and healing brings hope.