Latest / Ministry Minded / How to Spot the Difference Between the Holy Spirit and the Circus of Deliverance Ministries with Eric Attinger

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How to Spot the Difference Between the Holy Spirit and the Circus of Deliverance Ministries with Eric Attinger · Ministry Minded

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Yep.
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SPEAKER_02: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Ministry Minded Podcast.
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SPEAKER_02: This is Pastor Brad Gray.
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SPEAKER_02: I'm the host of the podcast.
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SPEAKER_01: Also, I'm here with my assistant pastor, executive pastor, Eric Adler.
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SPEAKER_01: Eric, how are you doing, man?
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SPEAKER_01: Good.
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SPEAKER_01: Thanks for having me.
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SPEAKER_01: Always love it.
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SPEAKER_01: It's always a joy and have a lot of fun here.
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SPEAKER_02: Oh, we always have fun.
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The Ministry Minded Podcast is a show that seeks a marvel at
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the mercy of God that
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SPEAKER_02: meets us in our messy ministries.
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And today we are coming to you with sort of,
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I'll call it an impromptu show.
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SPEAKER_02: Yes.
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It's just been inspired by my recent Bible study,
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but also what I'm preparing to preach on.
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And I figured it would be something that's worth talking about
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only because it
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SPEAKER_02: seems to...
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SPEAKER_02: It's not like it's gone away,
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SPEAKER_02: this topic,
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SPEAKER_02: but it seems like it's more popular in recent years or days even.
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SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_02: Like a recent memory for me is filled with this topic of,
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SPEAKER_02: let's call them deliverance ministries.
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SPEAKER_02: And there's always a lot of like, what can we say?
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Skepticism,
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but then also fanaticism that is involved with some of these ministries.
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SPEAKER_02: And so I want to talk about some of that,
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SPEAKER_02: how we as Christians,
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SPEAKER_02: the church can understand,
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SPEAKER_02: discern,
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SPEAKER_02: what's going on with some of these deliverance ministries,
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SPEAKER_02: with some of these encounters with demons and evil spirits,
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SPEAKER_02: how can we as the church understand a lot of the hype surrounding that,
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SPEAKER_02: especially as it compares with Scripture?
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SPEAKER_02: Always,
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SPEAKER_02: always,
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SPEAKER_02: like you're a Solar Scriptura guy,
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SPEAKER_02: as am I.
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SPEAKER_02: The Scripture is always our baseline.
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SPEAKER_02: And of course, it would be so foolish of us to say,
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SPEAKER_02: And I know that there's been preachers that said this, right?
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SPEAKER_02: I'm not going to name names.
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SPEAKER_02: We don't have to do that.
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SPEAKER_02: We know who they are.
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SPEAKER_02: If you're listening, you probably know who they are.
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But there's been preachers in the past that kind of deny or
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outright disown any
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SPEAKER_02: notion of demonic activity in the quote-unquote modern world,
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SPEAKER_02: which I think is just a crazy thing to assume.
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SPEAKER_02: But then, as always, you and I have talked about this.
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SPEAKER_02: Yep.
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there's always this pendulum swing the other way,
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where everything's a demon.
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SPEAKER_02: And so I think this is going to be a healthy conversation,
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SPEAKER_02: only because if we're doing a comparison,
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SPEAKER_02: I'm probably more on the skeptic side than you.
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But even though I still 1,000% understand that there's demonic
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and spiritual
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SPEAKER_02: activity that is going on all around us.
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SPEAKER_02: So I think this is going to be healthy.
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SPEAKER_02: I also think it's going to be beneficial because...
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The TikTok algorithms,
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the Facebook real algorithms,
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what do they often give us?
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SPEAKER_02: These very hyped up ceremonies and services.
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SPEAKER_02: I don't even want to call them worship services, right?
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SPEAKER_02: But they show us the nth degree of deliverance ministries and whatnot.
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SPEAKER_02: And so I want us to kind of ascertain that, discern that.
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through the lens of scripture especially as it relates to I
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think a really pivotal
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scene in Acts chapter 16 which just so happens to coincide with
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what I'm studying
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I'm preparing to preach on this coming Sunday when this comes
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out it's probably
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already been posted but regardless I want to talk about that so
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just your initial
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thoughts just your initial sort of understanding not of Acts 16
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but some of like
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these popular deliverance ministries that go on like how should
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we understand all
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SPEAKER_02: this
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah, sure.
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SPEAKER_00: That's a really great question.
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SPEAKER_00: And a lot of people have come to me before,
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SPEAKER_00: especially because I'm,
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SPEAKER_00: again,
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SPEAKER_00: one of the few people,
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SPEAKER_00: sola scriptura,
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SPEAKER_00: but I also believe in the spiritual realm.
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And so people are definitely attracted to that side of it,
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which you kind of alluded to.
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SPEAKER_00: It draws this fanaticism.
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And a lot of times I did a whole series on angelology pointing
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out how Hollywood
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SPEAKER_00: and literature and all that kind of stuff,
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SPEAKER_00: the arts,
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have really gone away from Sola Scriptura and blown these
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things out of proportion.
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SPEAKER_00: And they're really exciting.
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SPEAKER_00: It's a really exciting topic to people.
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SPEAKER_00: But it's a real topic, and there's real things going on.
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SPEAKER_00: My problem,
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SPEAKER_00: again,
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SPEAKER_00: is with both camps,
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SPEAKER_00: the ones that say it's absolutely gone,
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SPEAKER_00: it's not here,
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SPEAKER_00: because Sola Scriptura doesn't really point to that.
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SPEAKER_00: But it also doesn't point to these things where –
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SPEAKER_00: I'll just say – I mean I don't know.
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SPEAKER_00: Maybe there's good deliverance ministries out there somewhere,
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SPEAKER_00: but the ones that I've been invited to partake in or sit in on are always
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SPEAKER_00: delivering Christians from demons,
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which doesn't seem to follow Sola Scriptura either because I
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always try to point
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SPEAKER_00: out to these people who are really – always seem to be well-intended.
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SPEAKER_00: that I never saw an example of a Christian delivered from a demon.
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And to have a demonic entity,
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having you in bondage doesn't seem like you're free in Christ.
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SPEAKER_00: So I think it's these things that go sideways, they get tilted.
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I do believe there are demonic entities that can inhabit people,
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possess people.
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SPEAKER_00: It says that happened in the Bible.
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SPEAKER_00: I'd imagine they're around today.
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My joke is they didn't pack their bags after the ascension and say,
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well,
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guys,
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it's over.
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SPEAKER_00: They won.
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SPEAKER_00: We're out.
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SPEAKER_00: I think it's clearly the opposite,
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SPEAKER_00: that evil reigns still here on the earth,
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SPEAKER_00: Satan still has his minions and things like that,
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SPEAKER_00: and they're still wreaking havoc.
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SPEAKER_00: But I'm just very quick,
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SPEAKER_00: or opposite,
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SPEAKER_00: I stop from being quick to make all these extra assumptions,
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SPEAKER_00: which when I run into the people of Deliverance Ministries,
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SPEAKER_00: they'll always add these extra characteristics,
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SPEAKER_00: I've noticed,
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SPEAKER_00: onto these spirits,
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SPEAKER_00: and they'll say,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: this is the spirit of Jezebel,
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SPEAKER_00: and this one does this,
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SPEAKER_00: this,
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SPEAKER_00: and this,
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SPEAKER_00: and
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SPEAKER_00: I do get there's—I mean, I believe in patterns of the Bible.
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SPEAKER_00: So,
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SPEAKER_00: I mean,
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SPEAKER_00: if there was a Jezebel human in the Bible that had these attributes,
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there will be humans that have these attributes maybe without
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spiritual demonic forces.
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SPEAKER_00: Maybe Jezebel is possessed by a demon.
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SPEAKER_00: I don't know,
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SPEAKER_00: but I'm not going to start adding,
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SPEAKER_00: like,
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SPEAKER_00: these are the things that will do this to the Christian whatever.
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SPEAKER_00: And, like, as we get into Python, you'll see, like, they—
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SPEAKER_00: they'll even assume like, well, this spirit chokes out people.
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SPEAKER_00: And it's like, that's not even anywhere in scripture.
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SPEAKER_00: So it sounds like,
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and what you'll find out is a lot of these people in the
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deliverance ministries,
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SPEAKER_00: depending on which one you go to,
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they'll have somewhat of a small basis of scripture where these
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things appear in scripture,
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but then like 90% of their argument and their thing is they
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start adding all these
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SPEAKER_00: attributes that I haven't seen in scripture.
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SPEAKER_00: And then you go to the next deliverance ministry guy,
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SPEAKER_00: Or woman.
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SPEAKER_00: And they have that little piece of scripture.
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And then a whole bunch of other different characteristics the
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other guy didn't include.
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SPEAKER_00: And that's when I start to realize, hmm, this isn't jiving.
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SPEAKER_00: It's not adding up.
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SPEAKER_00: And again,
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SPEAKER_00: why are you mostly—and maybe you guys,
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SPEAKER_00: if you're out there listening,
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maybe you know a deliverance ministry that actually deals with
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people that are nonbelievers.
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I'd be more interested in talking to those people because I've
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talked to enough
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SPEAKER_00: that work with Christians.
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SPEAKER_00: And again—
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SPEAKER_00: My concept of what the Bible actually says,
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SPEAKER_00: not even my concept,
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SPEAKER_00: what the Bible actually says is if you are free in Christ,
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SPEAKER_00: you're free in Christ,
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SPEAKER_00: you can't be possessed by a spirit.
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SPEAKER_00: I mean,
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SPEAKER_00: you can maybe run into them and have some encounters or whatever,
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but I don't think these spirits are chaining you up and holding
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you back because it
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SPEAKER_00: sounds like they would have overcome Christ then,
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SPEAKER_00: which is very against what Scripture says.
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SPEAKER_02: That's totally against what the bulk of Scripture tells us, right?
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SPEAKER_02: That we are possessed, we could say, by the Holy Spirit.
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SPEAKER_02: upon faith.
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SPEAKER_02: And it's not like a gradual thing.
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SPEAKER_02: No,
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SPEAKER_02: we are indwelled by the Holy Spirit,
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which I would say definitely resists any sort of notion that we
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have other quote
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SPEAKER_02: unquote demons that need to be expelled.
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And I think you touched on something that I've often considered
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and have tried to
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SPEAKER_02: meditate on,
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SPEAKER_02: chew on,
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SPEAKER_02: which is just this idea that
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SPEAKER_02: As a society at large,
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SPEAKER_02: we've become mostly inoculated to the idea of the spiritual realm,
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SPEAKER_02: probably because Hollywood has,
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SPEAKER_02: not just Hollywood,
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but we could say just the general swath of Hollywoodism has
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sort of put it in front
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SPEAKER_02: of our eyes so much.
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SPEAKER_02: So either A,
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we assume that quote-unquote Hollywood gets it right with their
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very creative and
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imagined ways in how do quote-unquote demons work and all that
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kind of stuff.
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SPEAKER_02: And I think that that is...
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one problem because then we're looking for that as if hollywood
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has gotten it right
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or also b they've put it in front of our eyes so much to where
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then we become
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desensitized to it right uh and that's where you get those
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notions of either like
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what you're saying either we're looking for it everywhere or b
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we don't even think
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it exists because we're just like oh that's just hollywood
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that's that's just fake
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SPEAKER_02: that's just those old fairy tales
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, exactly.
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SPEAKER_00: And it's really interesting,
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SPEAKER_00: too,
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SPEAKER_00: because more recently up on my channels,
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SPEAKER_00: my trend and burning channels,
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SPEAKER_00: I've been doing a lot more video clips and putting them out.
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SPEAKER_00: And it's funny to me to see how I have,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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videos of all different shapes and sizes of what I talk about
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with scripture and stuff.
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SPEAKER_00: And I started to notice even recently,
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SPEAKER_00: I told my wife,
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SPEAKER_00: said,
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SPEAKER_00: I've noticed a trend with,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: I've put out maybe,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: 50 to 100 videos recently,
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SPEAKER_00: just little clips.
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SPEAKER_00: And I've noticed the ones that are based on scripture,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: they'll get good comments and they'll get like,
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SPEAKER_00: views.
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But once I start talking about the demonic or the Nephilim or whatever,
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the views spike.
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SPEAKER_00: And it's showing me,
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SPEAKER_00: again,
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SPEAKER_00: what's so true here is that people don't—a lot of these people,
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SPEAKER_00: and I should say people,
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SPEAKER_00: the people that are maybe not as involved in the church,
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SPEAKER_00: maybe are not as involved in Scripture,
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SPEAKER_00: and maybe they are even,
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SPEAKER_00: I don't know,
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SPEAKER_00: but they just are hungry for this
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supernatural they just want to be in the spirit all the spirit
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weird stuff all the
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time and i think it's just become a form of entertainment and
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which is the problem
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that i've noticed like i think that's what people view my
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tiktok as sometimes is
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like entertainment and uh when when i post scripture it always
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and i'm talking
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about scripture and doctrine and christ and stuff it always
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gets less views less
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SPEAKER_00: comments less hearts than my stuff on the demonic which i also keep in a
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SPEAKER_00: So I've noticed people are hungry.
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SPEAKER_00: So what I'm trying to do is without being in a negative way,
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SPEAKER_00: I'm trying to like,
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SPEAKER_00: how can I get these people in the door with this stuff,
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SPEAKER_00: I guess,
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SPEAKER_00: if they're going to watch this stuff?
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SPEAKER_00: And how can I gear them towards like,
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SPEAKER_00: hey,
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SPEAKER_00: come a little further and take a step into what this is really all about?
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SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_02: Isn't that fascinating?
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And I think it just kind of shows the human psyche or the human mind,
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we could say.
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SPEAKER_02: Like, we are so curious about
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SPEAKER_02: About the unknown, about the unknown realms, about the spiritual realms.
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Like I think we're like we grow up with that idea of like
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there's other worlds beyond our own.
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SPEAKER_02: And yet I don't mean to sound corny or hokey,
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SPEAKER_02: but then like we grow up and become kind of jaded as jaded adults.
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SPEAKER_02: And we're just like, ah, that's just old kid stuff.
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SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_02: And so I think that that kind of plays into it.
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SPEAKER_02: So then there's been,
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SPEAKER_02: though,
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SPEAKER_02: I think a resurgence...
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SPEAKER_02: Maybe this speaks to...
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SPEAKER_02: And I don't want to derail us from Acts 16.
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SPEAKER_02: I want to talk about that.
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But maybe this speaks to something that is deep within us as
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humans in the sense that...
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SPEAKER_02: And I think definitely it does.
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What's that verse in Ecclesiastes that we were made with...
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Eternity was planted in our hearts.
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SPEAKER_02: Eternity was planted in our hearts.
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SPEAKER_02: And I think that...
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obviously clearly there's an ache in the human soul that
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understands that we were
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made for a world that's not broken and that we are in a world
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that is broken
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something's off something is off kilter that makes us pine for
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something beyond
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SPEAKER_02: this world we could say or having this world rectified and redeemed and
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And I think all of that plays into this idea that we're looking
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for answers.
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SPEAKER_02: This is why people go off to some place in,
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SPEAKER_02: I don't know,
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SPEAKER_02: Montana,
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and they get all shroomed out because they're looking for
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answers in some sort of,
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SPEAKER_02: we could say,
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SPEAKER_02: experience,
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SPEAKER_02: existential,
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SPEAKER_02: spiritual experience.
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SPEAKER_02: They're looking for answers.
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SPEAKER_02: And of course, you and I would say,
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clearly the answer to that is the gospel it's the word but
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they're looking and so I
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think that when you open the door to the spiritual realm even
12:05
through a biblical
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lens people are going to pounce on that because they're looking
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for answers even if
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they're not like going to it for the right reasons I see kind
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of like what you're
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doing but also like um like other other people who are trying
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to explain this it's
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SPEAKER_02: not to equate like you with Jesus but
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SPEAKER_02: But you know,
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SPEAKER_02: when Jesus is performing miracles,
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not everyone who was healed by Jesus was going to him for the
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right reasons,
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SPEAKER_02: right?
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SPEAKER_02: And I think the same thing applies when we open the door to,
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SPEAKER_02: quote-unquote,
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SPEAKER_02: the spiritual world of the Bible—
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SPEAKER_02: People pounce on that because they're looking for meaning,
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SPEAKER_02: even if they're not going to it for the right solution,
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SPEAKER_02: which is always to bring us to Jesus.
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SPEAKER_02: Am I tracking?
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
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And I actually run into that quite a bit when I'd be at my
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music festivals and
12:50
SPEAKER_00: wanted to talk to these people that are essentially pagans today.
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They have crystals,
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which I do believe there's power in that kind of stuff.
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SPEAKER_00: Like, I don't take it lightly.
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I believe I've seen some weird things and met people who have
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seen some weird
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SPEAKER_00: things myself,
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SPEAKER_00: but they'll openly talk to me.
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SPEAKER_00: And I always love to always say, you're a true Christian, Eric.
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SPEAKER_00: Like, what does that even mean?
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SPEAKER_00: So just because I'll talk to you and not berate you.
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Like,
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there's a lot of other Christians out there that will talk to you,
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not berate you.
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But I would talk about the spiritual stuff and explain that
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there are angels and
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SPEAKER_00: demons in their spiritual warfare going on around us.
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SPEAKER_00: And they'd love that part.
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But then once you start to say in the gospel and you could be
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free from your sin,
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it's like,
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ah,
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SPEAKER_00: Ah, okay.
13:22
SPEAKER_00: Okay, enough of that stuff.
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Let's go back to the angels and the aliens and what I saw in
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the sky the other day.
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SPEAKER_00: And you can see it.
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SPEAKER_00: You'll be able to see.
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Some people really love—they'll go into the gospel and say,
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wait,
13:31
this makes more sense.
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SPEAKER_00: Like,
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SPEAKER_00: I had an experience this week,
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SPEAKER_00: and even just telling somebody—talking about some of these things,
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SPEAKER_00: and then—
13:37
SPEAKER_00: They'll hear the gospel and it'll affect them.
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SPEAKER_00: But a lot of the times,
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SPEAKER_00: if they're not ready for it,
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SPEAKER_00: they just want to talk about the supernatural thing.
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And I think it goes back to what you just said there that we do
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have eternity
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SPEAKER_00: playing in our hearts.
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SPEAKER_00: We do understand deep down,
13:49
SPEAKER_00: subconsciously,
13:50
SPEAKER_00: whatever it is,
13:51
SPEAKER_00: that there is something beyond this world,
13:53
SPEAKER_00: beyond this life,
13:54
SPEAKER_00: and the Bible explicitly says that.
13:57
SPEAKER_00: So it's that understanding that there definitely is something out there.
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SPEAKER_00: But then again,
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SPEAKER_00: if you're not a believer and you haven't accepted the gospel yet,
14:03
SPEAKER_00: you don't want to give up your sin yet.
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So you don't want to go down that path of really focusing on
14:07
the truth and dealing
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SPEAKER_00: with your sin because it's much more fun to talk about the supernatural.
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SPEAKER_00: And maybe I can pick up this crystal and see what it does.
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And if I can bring people into my life with these frequencies
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and all kinds of
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SPEAKER_00: things I've heard,
14:18
SPEAKER_00: and they may or may not work.
14:20
But even when they work for people,
14:21
their magic or whatever is pulled off.
14:23
SPEAKER_00: It usually ends in demise or some kind of bad thing.
14:26
SPEAKER_00: You can always tell these people really do have—I love them,
14:29
SPEAKER_00: and I wish they would accept the gospel.
14:31
SPEAKER_00: A lot of times when they're involved and wrapped up in these things,
14:34
SPEAKER_00: they usually have—they're depressed.
14:37
SPEAKER_00: They are looking for meaning in life.
14:38
SPEAKER_00: They feel like they have no meaning other than this thing or whatever.
14:41
SPEAKER_00: And on top of that,
14:42
SPEAKER_00: I do also think that the human brain,
14:44
SPEAKER_00: especially today and maybe while we're seeing another uptick—
14:47
SPEAKER_00: is that we are just consumers of entertainment and to avoid reality um
14:52
SPEAKER_00: entertainment is good and all like that i love entertainment we all need
14:55
entertainment now and again but people are trying to be they're
14:57
trying to entertain
14:58
themselves to death it's another version of escapism that's
15:01
right because they
15:02
don't want to tackle like all right well if this stuff's real
15:04
what does that really
15:05
mean it's like i don't care i want to watch another alien movie
15:07
you know what i
15:07
SPEAKER_00: mean
15:08
SPEAKER_02: That's exactly right.
15:10
SPEAKER_02: And we want to avoid the harsh realities of reality.
15:15
SPEAKER_02: And to do that,
15:16
we kind of inoculate ourselves to perhaps what is actually
15:19
going on all around us.
15:20
SPEAKER_02: So with all of that said,
15:23
I've been studying recently in preparation to bring a sermon on
15:28
Acts 16...
15:29
and initially it was you know it's so fascinating how the holy
15:31
spirit works right
15:32
you know we've talked about that so many times um initially i
15:37
was approaching act
15:39
16 to preach um and to focus mainly on the story of the jail
15:46
and paul and silas
15:47
singing but then also the jailer coming to faith you know that
15:52
amazing moment the
15:53
SPEAKER_02: earthquake happens
15:54
SPEAKER_02: and all of the things that transpire.
15:56
SPEAKER_02: He's about to commit suicide,
15:57
SPEAKER_02: and then Paul stops him,
15:59
SPEAKER_02: and then he brings the whole household of faith.
16:00
SPEAKER_02: Hey, what do I have to do to be saved?
16:02
SPEAKER_02: And he says, believe in God, of course, and so on and so forth.
16:06
SPEAKER_02: But it's fascinating.
16:08
SPEAKER_02: In order to get there...
16:10
SPEAKER_02: The preparation,
16:11
SPEAKER_02: of course,
16:11
as any good sermon preparer would do is to gather context to
16:17
understand what led
16:18
SPEAKER_02: Paul and Silas to that point.
16:20
SPEAKER_02: And so reading Acts 16 and really chewing on it,
16:24
SPEAKER_02: all of the events sort of culminate in that prison scene.
16:29
SPEAKER_02: But then there's so many important events leading up to that.
16:32
SPEAKER_02: Namely, I see it's just loaded.
16:36
The notion that Paul and Silas,
16:39
you know,
16:39
because Barnabas and Paul had that falling out.
16:41
SPEAKER_02: So then now it's Paul and Silas and they get Timothy.
16:44
SPEAKER_02: And then they're wanting to go back.
16:47
SPEAKER_02: I think what's so fascinating,
16:48
SPEAKER_02: they're wanting to go back to the regions that they just spent time in.
16:51
SPEAKER_02: in their first missionary journey,
16:53
SPEAKER_02: bring the Jerusalem Council decision back to these churches,
16:59
SPEAKER_02: sort of encourage them,
17:00
SPEAKER_02: strengthen them in that decision.
17:02
There's no other way to be justified than by faith in Christ,
17:05
so on and so forth.
17:06
SPEAKER_02: But then they're prevented from doing that, right?
17:09
SPEAKER_02: Literally, the doors are closing on.
17:12
SPEAKER_02: The Spirit of God does not allow them...
17:15
SPEAKER_02: to go further north into what is sort of modern-day Turkey.
17:20
SPEAKER_02: It doesn't allow them to go that direction.
17:22
SPEAKER_02: They have to change directions.
17:25
SPEAKER_02: So they go into the Macedonian vision,
17:27
SPEAKER_02: the Macedonian call,
17:28
SPEAKER_02: whatever you want to refer to it as,
17:29
SPEAKER_02: and they end up going to Philippi.
17:31
SPEAKER_02: and they meet even more obstacles,
17:34
SPEAKER_02: more hindrances,
17:35
SPEAKER_02: chief of which there's no church there,
17:37
SPEAKER_02: there's no synagogue there.
17:38
SPEAKER_02: It's a Roman colony,
17:40
which is filled with lots of pluralistic ideas about religion
17:44
and mythology and spirituality.
17:46
SPEAKER_02: So they're there.
17:47
SPEAKER_02: There's barely a congregation.
17:50
SPEAKER_02: It's a group of women praying by the side of a river.
17:53
That constitutes the Philippian church,
17:55
if you want to call it that,
17:56
at the beginning.
17:57
SPEAKER_02: And then on top of all of that, obstacles.
18:00
There's a very real presence of evil there in the form of this
18:05
slave girl,
18:06
SPEAKER_02: it says,
18:08
SPEAKER_02: who is possessed,
18:10
SPEAKER_02: at least in the ESV.
18:12
SPEAKER_02: Let me see if I can bring it up.
18:13
SPEAKER_02: In the ESV, it says that she's possessed by a spirit of divination.
18:20
SPEAKER_02: And she's there.
18:21
SPEAKER_02: She's a slave girl.
18:22
SPEAKER_02: She's owned by these, we assume, two or more guys that...
18:26
who own her as a piece of property but more than that they are
18:29
exploiting her
18:32
horrible affliction of this spirit this evil spirit that's
18:35
inside of her as it says
18:37
to run their fortune telling fortune telling business which
18:42
just right there is an
18:43
SPEAKER_02: amazing like just an incredibly awful
18:47
sort of detail that's within this um beginning portion of act
18:53
16 which explains we
18:54
could say the world or the state in which paul finds the
18:59
philippians themselves
19:00
which i think is really fascinating that god wanted them to go
19:03
there with not much
19:05
SPEAKER_02: in the way of like ingredients to make a church
19:11
SPEAKER_02: And now they are confronted by this spirit of divination.
19:15
So to tell the story and then let's you and I kind of unpack it
19:18
a little bit.
19:19
SPEAKER_02: So they meet, they're there, they're starting to preach.
19:23
SPEAKER_02: They meet Lydia,
19:24
SPEAKER_02: they baptize her and perhaps other women,
19:26
SPEAKER_02: as it says in sort of the section like verses like 10 through 15.
19:31
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
19:32
SPEAKER_02: And then it says in verse 16 that Paul and Silas,
19:35
SPEAKER_02: they're going about,
19:35
SPEAKER_02: they're going back to that place,
19:37
SPEAKER_02: the place of prayer,
19:38
SPEAKER_02: which is by the river right there in Philippi.
19:42
SPEAKER_02: And this is when that slave girl kind of sees them.
19:45
SPEAKER_02: She kind of notices them.
19:46
We are inferring from the passage that the demon inside of her
19:51
notices Paul and
19:52
SPEAKER_02: Silas and starts crying out,
19:54
SPEAKER_02: as it says in verse 17,
19:56
"...these men are servants of the Most High God who proclaim to
19:59
you the way of
20:00
SPEAKER_02: salvation."
20:01
SPEAKER_02: And she is doing this for many days.
20:04
It says several days,
20:05
Luke tells us,
20:06
that this is happening to Paul and Silas.
20:08
SPEAKER_02: This girl is going around sort of crying out,
20:11
SPEAKER_02: yelling,
20:12
SPEAKER_02: shrieking,
20:12
SPEAKER_02: kind of causing a scene,
20:14
sort of pointing out these are preachers of salvation and so on
20:17
and so forth.
20:18
SPEAKER_02: And then it says...
20:19
SPEAKER_02: In verse 18, that Paul becomes greatly annoyed.
20:23
SPEAKER_02: He's annoyed,
20:25
SPEAKER_02: vexed,
20:25
SPEAKER_02: worked up,
20:26
SPEAKER_02: it kind of is in the Greek,
20:28
SPEAKER_02: and he turns to the girl,
20:30
SPEAKER_02: and actually it turns to the spirit,
20:31
SPEAKER_02: and he commands that spirit to come out of her,
20:34
SPEAKER_02: and it does that very right away.
20:36
He commands the spirit to come out of her in the name of Jesus,
20:39
and she's delivered.
20:41
SPEAKER_02: She's delivered from that spirit.
20:44
SPEAKER_02: And, of course, the rest of the story is the owners, they hate this.
20:47
SPEAKER_02: Their business model has just gone up in flames,
20:50
SPEAKER_02: which I think a point from my sermon,
20:53
SPEAKER_02: which I think is really interesting to note,
20:55
SPEAKER_02: is that this girl's liberation is this guy,
20:58
SPEAKER_02: these guys' loss.
21:00
SPEAKER_02: Which is just ironic,
21:01
SPEAKER_02: and it shows just how horribly sinful their hearts were,
21:05
that they were more concerned about their monetary gain or lack
21:08
thereof now,
21:09
SPEAKER_02: rather than this girl's existence and health and well-being.
21:15
SPEAKER_02: Regardless,
21:17
the real point that I think is really fascinating is what this
21:20
scene shows us,
21:21
SPEAKER_02: which is not only the very real presence of demons...
21:26
The very real ability of at least of the Apostle Paul,
21:31
we could say here,
21:32
to cast out demons.
21:34
SPEAKER_02: But then also this notion that Paul is annoyed at this demon for,
21:41
SPEAKER_02: we could say,
21:42
SPEAKER_02: technically preaching the truth.
21:45
SPEAKER_02: So there's so many little variables here.
21:47
SPEAKER_02: What's some of your first thoughts when you come across this passage?
21:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
21:50
SPEAKER_00: So,
21:51
SPEAKER_00: uh,
21:51
SPEAKER_00: it's really interesting cause that's,
21:52
SPEAKER_00: you know,
21:53
SPEAKER_00: when I've read this over,
21:54
SPEAKER_00: we've read it many times in my life,
21:55
SPEAKER_00: of course.
21:56
SPEAKER_00: And I always took it as,
21:57
SPEAKER_00: you know,
21:58
SPEAKER_00: that Paul's annoyed,
21:59
SPEAKER_00: almost like,
22:00
SPEAKER_00: um,
22:00
SPEAKER_00: almost like he was being mocked,
22:02
SPEAKER_00: almost like,
22:03
SPEAKER_00: Hey guys,
22:03
SPEAKER_00: come here.
22:04
SPEAKER_00: Look at, look at these guys.
22:05
SPEAKER_00: They're going to preach salvation.
22:07
SPEAKER_00: And there might've been, uh, some of that to it.
22:09
SPEAKER_00: Uh,
22:10
SPEAKER_00: but as I dove deeper as,
22:12
SPEAKER_00: you know,
22:12
SPEAKER_00: I was looking into,
22:13
SPEAKER_00: as we looked in,
22:14
SPEAKER_00: so on the Greek,
22:15
SPEAKER_00: it's the spirit of Python and,
22:17
SPEAKER_00: I started to realize,
22:18
SPEAKER_00: you know,
22:19
SPEAKER_00: now this was connected to the god Apollo,
22:22
SPEAKER_00: which is connected to the Oracle of Delphi.
22:24
And the Oracle of Delphi,
22:25
these priestesses,
22:28
would go there for these prophecies.
22:29
SPEAKER_00: And Apollos was known for prophecy.
22:32
SPEAKER_00: And music.
22:33
He's actually the leader of the muses,
22:35
which is where we get the term music from.
22:37
And there's obviously real things happening at the Oracle
22:39
Delphi with the spirit of Python,
22:41
SPEAKER_00: which is what this spirit is identified as being in this girl.
22:45
SPEAKER_00: And it says that people from all over the world would come,
22:47
SPEAKER_00: which the Greeks thought was the center of the world then.
22:50
SPEAKER_00: But as I got down to it more and started to really dive deeper into this,
22:55
there's more reasons to it that I think Paul could have been
22:58
annoyed and shut her down.
23:00
SPEAKER_00: One is when she actually says,
23:01
SPEAKER_00: I think the exact wording is,
23:02
SPEAKER_00: "'These men are servants of the Most High God.'"
23:06
SPEAKER_00: Notice that she never says,
23:07
SPEAKER_00: these are servants of the Most High God Yahweh,
23:10
SPEAKER_00: or these are telling you about how to be saved by Jesus Christ.
23:13
SPEAKER_00: She leaves these details out.
23:15
SPEAKER_00: And in Philippi,
23:16
SPEAKER_00: we know there's a big Greek influence,
23:18
SPEAKER_00: obviously,
23:19
and that's why the spirit of Python would have actually been
23:20
probably pretty well
23:22
SPEAKER_00: known there around these people,
23:23
SPEAKER_00: almost as a respected figure,
23:25
SPEAKER_00: a respected spirit where people were getting a lot of knowledge from.
23:28
SPEAKER_00: And perhaps...
23:29
SPEAKER_00: Paul kind of saw this as, well, wait a minute.
23:31
SPEAKER_00: If I don't stop her and clarify,
23:33
they're going to assume this is Zeus because Zeus in Greek
23:36
mythology is also known
23:37
SPEAKER_00: as the most high God.
23:39
SPEAKER_00: So there could have been a little bit of almost like,
23:41
SPEAKER_00: and it's a lot of times what,
23:42
SPEAKER_00: even when I run into spiritual people,
23:44
Going back to these people that I find out who are into magic
23:47
or rakey or other
23:48
SPEAKER_00: forms of the occult,
23:49
SPEAKER_00: there's all different variations I've found.
23:52
SPEAKER_00: Even there's this one—and I feel like God's prepared me to see this.
23:55
SPEAKER_00: I wouldn't have believed half this stuff.
23:57
SPEAKER_00: I wouldn't have run into some of these people.
23:58
SPEAKER_00: And I would have to tell myself, is this even real?
24:00
SPEAKER_00: But some wild stuff happened.
24:02
There was a woman that I knew who even would get some prophetic
24:05
things and would
24:06
SPEAKER_00: tell me things that would actually kind of sometimes come true.
24:09
SPEAKER_00: And then I'd talk to her about Jesus,
24:10
SPEAKER_00: and she'd say,
24:10
SPEAKER_00: hey,
24:10
SPEAKER_00: just leave the Jesus stuff out of this,
24:12
SPEAKER_00: but I really love this prophecy.
24:13
SPEAKER_00: You say a lot of true things.
24:14
SPEAKER_00: I say a lot of true stuff,
24:16
SPEAKER_00: like there's something going on here,
24:17
SPEAKER_00: and I'd say,
24:17
SPEAKER_00: whoa,
24:18
SPEAKER_00: whoa,
24:18
SPEAKER_00: whoa,
24:18
SPEAKER_00: whoa,
24:18
let's not muddy the waters here because there are different
24:22
sides of this.
24:23
SPEAKER_00: So as I meditated and studied this more,
24:26
SPEAKER_00: I realized that there was some real prophetic...
24:28
SPEAKER_00: Obviously,
24:28
SPEAKER_00: this girl had a real...
24:30
SPEAKER_00: She wasn't a con artist by any means.
24:31
SPEAKER_00: She had this demonic spirit working within her,
24:35
giving her real information that was actually really working
24:37
because I don't think
24:37
people would have kept giving money to her slave owners if
24:41
there was not somebody
24:42
SPEAKER_00: something getting things out of it or whatever.
24:44
SPEAKER_00: So I think what Paul might be doing here is,
24:46
SPEAKER_00: well,
24:47
SPEAKER_00: first off,
24:47
SPEAKER_00: let's clarify who the Most High God is.
24:49
SPEAKER_00: It's not Zeus, who you all think the Most High God is.
24:52
SPEAKER_00: Second off...
24:53
SPEAKER_00: You don't want to associate with somebody playing in the demonic realm.
24:57
SPEAKER_00: You definitely don't want to associate with demonic spirits,
24:58
SPEAKER_00: because as we know,
25:01
SPEAKER_00: that Satan parades around as an angel of light.
25:04
SPEAKER_00: So I always warn people about when you go into churches.
25:06
I mean,
25:07
there's a lot of good churches,
25:07
but there's a lot of bad churches.
25:09
And I used to say,
25:10
and I still do sometimes,
25:11
if I were Satan,
25:12
I'd start a church too.
25:14
SPEAKER_00: And I'd tell 90% of the truth,
25:16
SPEAKER_00: and I'd lie 10%,
25:17
SPEAKER_00: and the 10% would be really damaging lies,
25:19
SPEAKER_00: lies that would just corrupt the truth completely.
25:21
SPEAKER_00: And I think this could also be what Paul's getting at.
25:23
Like,
25:23
God forbid I let this girl stick around and say,
25:25
yep,
25:26
yep,
25:26
yep,
25:26
this is the most high God.
25:28
SPEAKER_00: And then she goes away.
25:29
SPEAKER_00: He doesn't deal with it and just keeps preaching and ignores her.
25:31
And then she goes back and says,
25:33
hey,
25:33
you know,
25:34
Paul and Barnabas,
25:34
and you know that?
25:35
SPEAKER_00: I have something to tell you, too.
25:36
SPEAKER_00: Come here, get the oracles at Delphi.
25:37
SPEAKER_00: This is what we're doing.
25:38
Come listen to the spirit of Python,
25:40
and I'll get you to Zeus and all these things.
25:43
And it's just really fascinating that Apollo,
25:46
the god,
25:46
is also associated with light as well.
25:48
SPEAKER_00: So it's like ironic music,
25:50
SPEAKER_00: light,
25:51
SPEAKER_00: false prophecy,
25:52
SPEAKER_00: prophecy that's true,
25:53
SPEAKER_00: but it's coming from a false spirit,
25:54
SPEAKER_00: basically.
25:55
So it's really interesting how this is so intertwined that the
25:59
spirit of Python,
26:00
SPEAKER_00: it lines up a lot with Satan,
26:01
SPEAKER_00: how Satan is described in the Bible.
26:03
And I think it's one of those things where,
26:05
like I said,
26:05
when we find people...
26:07
SPEAKER_00: You can just go on TikTok or go on any social media right now,
26:09
SPEAKER_00: and you can find a lot of people preaching a lot of things in churches.
26:11
And a lot of times me and you and I especially and some of my
26:15
other Christian
26:15
SPEAKER_00: friends will send somebody to say,
26:17
SPEAKER_00: get a load of this.
26:18
SPEAKER_00: And it's just some ridiculous,
26:20
SPEAKER_00: absurd sermon that is just completely twisting and distorting the truth.
26:24
But because there's a cross up front and they say Jesus every
26:26
so often,
26:27
people swallow it.
26:29
And deeper you go,
26:31
it's encouraging people to live in sin and try to earn their salvation.
26:35
SPEAKER_00: It's all these things that we've seen in the Bible.
26:38
SPEAKER_00: So I think just from this,
26:39
SPEAKER_00: as I dove deeper into this,
26:41
SPEAKER_00: I believe it had a lot to do with,
26:43
SPEAKER_00: first off,
26:43
SPEAKER_00: clarifying who the Most High God is.
26:44
SPEAKER_00: Don't get it twisted.
26:45
SPEAKER_00: Because people who are spiritual,
26:47
they will sometimes be kind to you as a Christian and want to
26:50
almost shake hands
26:51
SPEAKER_00: and hook arms and say,
26:52
SPEAKER_00: let's do this together.
26:53
SPEAKER_00: And it's like we are not supposed to work with demonic activities,
26:56
SPEAKER_00: demonic entities,
26:57
because what they're most likely to do—Apollo is also
27:01
associated with what these
27:02
SPEAKER_00: kind of things do is there's usually some kind of—
27:04
financial money system involved there's usually money making
27:07
going on which is when
27:07
you look into the stuff so that's why that's why paul and silas
27:11
they get the
27:12
treatment they do is because the gospel wrecks these things and
27:15
when you sometimes
27:16
are going to stop these demonic influences you're also going to
27:18
hurt somebody's
27:19
SPEAKER_00: pocketbook
27:20
SPEAKER_00: And that's literally the reason they go to prison.
27:23
SPEAKER_00: And you can see how that's what the gospel does.
27:25
SPEAKER_00: It shatters, it breaks strongholds.
27:27
SPEAKER_00: And a lot of these demonic strongholds that you see,
27:28
SPEAKER_00: especially here,
27:30
SPEAKER_00: was something that people were capitalizing on.
27:32
SPEAKER_00: They were causing confusion,
27:33
SPEAKER_00: creating lies,
27:34
and making it look magical because there was some truth to
27:36
these prophecies.
27:37
SPEAKER_00: And I'm telling you,
27:38
SPEAKER_00: you sprinkle a little bit of truth,
27:39
SPEAKER_00: you can get a whole lot of lies passed on a lot of people.
27:41
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's what was going on here.
27:42
SPEAKER_02: Definitely.
27:43
SPEAKER_02: And I think, just to point out too,
27:45
SPEAKER_02: And I thank you for clarifying the spirit of divination, Python.
27:50
I think it's not an accident that this is the only time where
27:53
this spirit is named
27:55
SPEAKER_02: in the New Testament.
27:56
SPEAKER_02: This is the only time where this Greek term is used.
27:59
SPEAKER_02: I don't think that's accidental.
28:00
SPEAKER_02: That's not happenstance.
28:01
SPEAKER_02: I think Luke,
28:03
SPEAKER_02: we could say,
28:04
SPEAKER_02: the writer of Acts,
28:05
SPEAKER_02: also the writer of the Gospel of Luke,
28:08
SPEAKER_02: is one of the most,
28:08
SPEAKER_02: we could say,
28:09
SPEAKER_02: well-researched New Testament writers.
28:12
SPEAKER_02: He kind of makes that point over and over again.
28:15
SPEAKER_02: within sort of the introduction to his gospel,
28:17
SPEAKER_02: but then acts as sort of like a volume two of his,
28:21
SPEAKER_02: we could say,
28:22
SPEAKER_02: writings about Jesus and the aftermath of the work of Jesus.
28:27
SPEAKER_02: It's not accidental that he's using that there.
28:29
SPEAKER_02: I'll just point that out.
28:30
SPEAKER_02: And I think it helps us understand...
28:33
SPEAKER_02: Not only the very real threat to Paul and Silas,
28:38
SPEAKER_02: but also,
28:39
SPEAKER_02: as you're saying,
28:41
we could say the region of the world that they're inhabiting is
28:45
filled with this
28:46
SPEAKER_02: type of animosity to the gospel.
28:48
SPEAKER_02: This animosity, we could say, to the truth.
28:51
SPEAKER_02: And it's filled with all this falsehood,
28:53
SPEAKER_02: filled with all this,
28:54
SPEAKER_02: as you're saying,
28:55
SPEAKER_02: false light,
28:55
SPEAKER_02: false hope,
28:56
SPEAKER_02: false teaching,
28:57
SPEAKER_02: false truth.
28:58
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
28:59
SPEAKER_02: falsehood in its very definition.
29:04
SPEAKER_02: And I think all of this helps us understand that,
29:07
SPEAKER_02: if I can say it this way,
29:09
SPEAKER_02: this is sort of the same world that we're inhabiting.
29:12
SPEAKER_02: As you just mentioned,
29:13
there are deliverance ministries still going on right now that
29:16
are doing similar
29:17
SPEAKER_02: things to these owners that we're doing to this slave girl.
29:20
SPEAKER_02: Maybe they don't have a demon-possessed slave girl in their congregation,
29:24
SPEAKER_02: but they're basically running racketeering ministries that
29:29
That are fraudulently profiting off of the so-called way in
29:35
which they can deliver
29:36
SPEAKER_02: people from demons.
29:38
SPEAKER_02: And so this brings us to that conversation.
29:42
SPEAKER_02: How are we able to discern...
29:46
SPEAKER_02: And maybe this is an unanswerable question.
29:48
SPEAKER_02: How are we able to discern what's real?
29:51
SPEAKER_02: Because they're profiting off this.
29:53
SPEAKER_02: There's other instances in Scripture, like we looked it up.
29:56
SPEAKER_02: Philip,
29:57
SPEAKER_02: in Acts chapter 8,
29:58
it says that he was delivering people in Samaria from their
30:01
unclean spirits.
30:02
SPEAKER_02: So this is happening in this early apostolic age,
30:06
SPEAKER_02: in that era of the apostles,
30:08
SPEAKER_02: but then also of that early era of the early church.
30:12
How are we able to discern between someone who's exploiting the
30:21
demonic world for
30:22
their own gain versus someone like Paul who's actually doing so
30:28
out of faith,
30:30
SPEAKER_02: genuine faith,
30:31
SPEAKER_02: a genuine true sort of interaction with the demonic,
30:36
SPEAKER_02: if I can say it that way?
30:37
And over my experience with dealing with these kind of
30:40
situations and people and
30:41
SPEAKER_00: even these,
30:42
SPEAKER_00: like you said,
30:43
SPEAKER_00: deliverance ministries,
30:45
SPEAKER_00: it's always of who they're pointing to.
30:47
SPEAKER_00: So you see Paul here is always pointing to Christ,
30:50
SPEAKER_00: pointing to Jesus,
30:50
SPEAKER_00: where you get to these deliverance ministries like,
30:52
SPEAKER_00: you've got to send it to this person.
30:54
SPEAKER_00: They have this great ministry,
30:55
SPEAKER_00: and if you just give them $1,000,
30:57
SPEAKER_00: they deserve it,
30:58
SPEAKER_00: all the things they're doing.
30:59
SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
31:02
I saw a clip the other day where this one was talking about how
31:05
they can come to a church—
31:06
SPEAKER_02: And do a weekend of deliverance, which is kind of funny to me.
31:12
SPEAKER_02: We'll just come and we'll deliver whoever.
31:14
SPEAKER_02: And the fee was $10,000.
31:15
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
31:16
And you could actually make the argument that it is Act 16 all
31:21
over again.
31:22
SPEAKER_00: The patterns continue.
31:23
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
31:23
SPEAKER_00: And they are doing the same thing.
31:25
SPEAKER_00: It's a racketeering system.
31:27
SPEAKER_00: Whenever there's,
31:27
SPEAKER_00: I'll just tell you this,
31:28
SPEAKER_00: whenever there's a requirement of money involved,
31:30
SPEAKER_00: usually a large sum,
31:31
SPEAKER_00: not like 10 bucks,
31:32
SPEAKER_00: but like these thousands of dollars,
31:34
promises of that it'll all work and you'll have these great
31:37
benefits of your life.
31:39
And then again,
31:39
pointing to this person as the anointed one that can do this.
31:42
SPEAKER_00: And it's always these particular people who,
31:45
I've even had people come to me because they know I believe in
31:47
the spiritual realm.
31:47
SPEAKER_00: This actually really happened recently.
31:49
And I do believe these people had a son who was dealing with
31:52
demonic entities.
31:54
I'm not sure possessed by any means,
31:55
but definitely gotten in some dark stuff.
31:58
SPEAKER_00: He said,
31:58
SPEAKER_00: hey,
31:58
I'd like to talk to you and have you do it because I need
32:00
somebody who has
32:01
SPEAKER_00: experience in deliverance.
32:02
SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, whoa.
32:03
Well,
32:03
first off,
32:03
I don't know if I'm actually a deliverance person by any means,
32:05
but...
32:06
SPEAKER_00: Again,
32:07
SPEAKER_00: when you start to point to people like,
32:08
SPEAKER_00: you're the only one that can do this,
32:09
SPEAKER_00: you're the one,
32:10
SPEAKER_00: not my pastor,
32:11
SPEAKER_00: it gets completely away from,
32:13
SPEAKER_00: I think,
32:13
SPEAKER_00: what the Holy Spirit is about.
32:14
SPEAKER_00: The Holy Spirit,
32:15
SPEAKER_00: anytime somebody—if you were to run into a real—it actually happens,
32:19
SPEAKER_00: it seems to happen a lot of times.
32:20
If you go out of America,
32:21
there's a lot more of this stuff than here,
32:23
but it still can.
32:24
SPEAKER_00: These demonic things can still take place, these possessions.
32:27
SPEAKER_00: I don't think they're frequent.
32:28
i think they're infrequent i think these spirits have you know
32:32
obviously they're
32:32
wreaking havoc on the music industry and hollywood and those
32:34
kind of things for
32:35
sure maybe not direct possessions but when you run you know
32:38
into these things
32:39
they're going to be very infrequent but it's the holy spirit
32:43
has enough power to do
32:44
this and and when you if somebody's going to get uh delivered
32:46
from a real spirit
32:47
first off they're not going to be a christian if they're
32:49
possessed it's going to be
32:49
something that doesn't believe uh like this slave girl uh i
32:53
don't think was a
32:53
SPEAKER_00: believer in christ until this moment when she's freed here
32:56
SPEAKER_00: So they're going to be a non-believer who's,
32:57
SPEAKER_00: if they're actually possessed,
32:58
SPEAKER_00: a Christian's not going to be possessed by an actual spirit.
33:01
SPEAKER_00: And when it gets done,
33:03
SPEAKER_00: you'll know it because the person will turn to Christ,
33:05
SPEAKER_00: will be delivered and turned to Christ,
33:07
won't be delivered and turned to this person and tell somebody
33:09
about this great
33:09
SPEAKER_00: deliverance ministry and you just got to give this money.
33:11
SPEAKER_00: So I think it's about who it's pointing to.
33:13
SPEAKER_00: And this goes for, let's just get away even from the demonic.
33:17
This also goes along with prophecy,
33:19
which ironically,
33:20
this is also a part of,
33:20
you can
33:21
find people that aren't even saying they're dealing with a
33:23
demonic that they are a
33:24
prophet and are there people that could maybe get words from
33:26
the lord here and
33:27
there yeah sure but when it's like hey i am a prophet i'm
33:30
prophet whoever and
33:31
whoever and just sow some seeds and i've got a word for you
33:35
today and they come in
33:36
and they can do it on command and it's so frequent like if you
33:39
think you have a
33:39
SPEAKER_00: spiritual gift
33:41
SPEAKER_00: Well, more power to you.
33:42
SPEAKER_00: I believe there's some effect to spiritual gifts or whatever,
33:45
SPEAKER_00: but if you think you can just on command do prophecies like that,
33:48
SPEAKER_00: that is so against what the Bible...
33:49
SPEAKER_00: John didn't even do that.
33:50
SPEAKER_00: He didn't say, hey, Jesus, give me a good revelation I can write down.
33:53
SPEAKER_00: It comes upon you.
33:54
SPEAKER_00: The Lord will bring it on.
33:55
SPEAKER_00: So if you see guys walking into churches saying,
33:57
SPEAKER_00: hey,
33:58
SPEAKER_00: donate to my ministry,
33:59
SPEAKER_00: and I'm going to give 10 people in here a word for their life,
34:01
SPEAKER_00: that's just not how it works.
34:02
SPEAKER_02: That's such a good point.
34:05
SPEAKER_02: And the thought that I had was just that, is that...
34:09
i'll say it this way the only thing the church has to sell
34:12
quote unquote is free
34:14
therefore which is the gospel it's you always see over and over
34:19
again like we could
34:19
go back to acts chapter three when um when peter and in james
34:24
right they they heal
34:25
the guy that's outside of the temple they're like hey we don't
34:28
have anything to
34:28
give you but what i can give you is christ like they're
34:30
literally giving away we
34:32
could say the only thing they have to offer which if you're
34:35
talking about business
34:36
SPEAKER_02: that's not a very good business model
34:38
SPEAKER_00: If you're trying to make a profit.
34:39
But that's the whole point,
34:40
is that the church isn't in it to sort of increase its bottom line.
34:45
SPEAKER_02: That's why Paul is here.
34:47
He's delivering her out of compassion and pity for her state,
34:52
for her state of affliction.
34:54
which you could say is an amazing mirror and reflection of
34:59
Christ himself who looks
35:01
SPEAKER_02: upon this world and in the epitome of humility,
35:04
SPEAKER_02: what does it say?
35:05
SPEAKER_02: He became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
35:07
He took upon all of our affliction on himself at really,
35:12
we could say,
35:13
no cost to us.
35:14
SPEAKER_02: He took it upon himself.
35:15
SPEAKER_02: And this is the heart of the gospel.
35:18
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
35:19
So this idea that we're putting a monetary barrier to what
35:24
Jesus and all of his
35:26
SPEAKER_02: constituents offer for free is clearly,
35:30
SPEAKER_02: we could say,
35:30
SPEAKER_02: a very blatant red flag when it comes to discerning,
35:36
SPEAKER_02: as you said,
35:37
SPEAKER_02: rightly so,
35:37
SPEAKER_02: not just deliverance ministries,
35:39
SPEAKER_02: but any ministry that claims to be part of,
35:42
SPEAKER_02: we could say,
35:43
SPEAKER_02: the Orthodox Church,
35:44
SPEAKER_02: that claims to be
35:46
a genuine ministry of the lord jesus christ as revealed in
35:51
scripture that's a
35:52
really big big red flag that we should always have um sort of
35:56
in the back of our
35:57
minds or maybe in the front of our minds like hey let's check
36:00
this absolutely and
36:02
it's like well there's even a passage in the scripture too
36:04
where that magician's
36:05
SPEAKER_00: like hey
36:06
SPEAKER_00: That's cool.
36:06
SPEAKER_00: I want, I want some of this.
36:07
SPEAKER_00: I want to make money.
36:08
SPEAKER_00: I want, it's like, whoa, this ain't for sale.
36:10
SPEAKER_00: This isn't about money.
36:11
SPEAKER_00: So you see like these people could not like,
36:13
SPEAKER_00: it's almost like,
36:13
SPEAKER_00: Hey,
36:13
SPEAKER_00: I see a good,
36:14
SPEAKER_00: really good business here.
36:15
If I can get this Jesus guy,
36:17
this Jesus power works,
36:18
we can make a lot of money.
36:19
SPEAKER_00: Like, this would be great to show me how you do it.
36:20
SPEAKER_00: And it's,
36:21
SPEAKER_00: That's the whole point.
36:22
If you ever have somebody tell you that they're in the ministry
36:24
to make money,
36:25
SPEAKER_00: again,
36:26
SPEAKER_00: red flag,
36:26
SPEAKER_00: especially what Jesus says.
36:27
SPEAKER_00: It doesn't mean you can't have money.
36:29
SPEAKER_00: That's not what I'm saying.
36:29
But when it's all about sowing seeds of $1,000 or any monetary
36:33
value with promises
36:34
SPEAKER_00: on the other end that aren't from God,
36:36
SPEAKER_00: it is a red flag.
36:38
SPEAKER_00: And it's no coincidence that I believe a lot of these things—
36:41
come from the same spirit that comes from the dark spiritual
36:44
realm it's those fault
36:45
like false prophecy where it can have some real things happen
36:48
but it's coming from
36:48
a bad spirit where it's again for financial gain you can even
36:53
see I've seen it
36:54
SPEAKER_00: before where an
36:56
SPEAKER_00: I'm a music guy.
36:56
I love music,
36:57
but where people can use music and have a really good band to
37:00
bring in people.
37:01
And it's really the preaching might be terrible,
37:02
but they have this musical aspect.
37:04
SPEAKER_00: And I do believe music can be good or bad.
37:06
SPEAKER_00: But I think, you know, a lot of this stuff is tied together.
37:09
SPEAKER_00: And it's actually no irony to me that at the,
37:12
SPEAKER_00: you know,
37:13
SPEAKER_00: when they get out,
37:13
SPEAKER_00: when Paul and Silas get out of prison,
37:15
SPEAKER_00: how do they,
37:15
SPEAKER_00: what are they doing?
37:16
SPEAKER_00: They're singing to the Lord.
37:17
SPEAKER_00: They're singing hymns.
37:18
It shows there's power in music the opposite way that a lot of
37:21
people use it.
37:22
SPEAKER_00: A lot of people will say stay away from certain music, and I agree.
37:25
SPEAKER_00: I love a lot of music,
37:26
but there are some you want to stay away from because it has
37:28
demonic influence,
37:29
SPEAKER_00: demonic language.
37:31
SPEAKER_00: And another big thing...
37:33
I think even at the Oracle Delphi,
37:35
they would actually use because Apollo,
37:36
again,
37:36
was music.
37:37
They might not sing songs,
37:38
but there's a lot of chants,
37:39
incantations to get you into trances.
37:42
SPEAKER_00: And those kind of things were taking place there.
37:44
SPEAKER_00: So you can see how these chants,
37:46
SPEAKER_00: like when people do those chants or those mantras,
37:48
SPEAKER_00: that's a form of music.
37:49
SPEAKER_00: That's a cadence.
37:51
So it's that musical spirit that people will use to manipulate
37:54
people and all kinds of things.
37:55
SPEAKER_00: But it goes both ways.
37:56
SPEAKER_00: What evil uses, again, they're falsifying it.
37:58
SPEAKER_00: They're using music in an evil way,
38:01
SPEAKER_00: whereas Paul and Silas are singing to the Lord on high,
38:04
SPEAKER_00: and there was some power to it there.
38:06
I think it did have some effect,
38:07
and it's not the only place in Scripture.
38:09
SPEAKER_00: You can even go,
38:10
SPEAKER_00: was it Elisha,
38:11
SPEAKER_00: I think,
38:12
SPEAKER_00: says,
38:12
SPEAKER_00: before he can even give a prophecy,
38:13
SPEAKER_00: bring me a musician.
38:14
SPEAKER_00: Like, well, what was that about?
38:15
SPEAKER_00: That's in the Scripture.
38:16
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
38:16
SPEAKER_00: Bring me a musician.
38:17
SPEAKER_00: What does that do?
38:18
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
38:19
SPEAKER_00: I'm not going to dive into it.
38:20
SPEAKER_00: Does it clear the frequencies?
38:21
SPEAKER_00: Does it clean spirits out?
38:22
SPEAKER_00: I'm not going to even dive into it,
38:23
but there's some aspect that says when you are truly worshiping
38:26
the Lord and
38:27
SPEAKER_00: revering Him and playing music,
38:29
SPEAKER_00: there is some power to it,
38:30
SPEAKER_00: right?
38:31
SPEAKER_00: Now, I don't mean to get emotional.
38:32
SPEAKER_00: I don't mean to,
38:33
because there's also manipulation tactics where people use
38:35
worship music to
38:37
SPEAKER_00: manipulate emotions.
38:38
SPEAKER_00: That's a whole other, I think, demonic kind of twist to it.
38:41
SPEAKER_00: I've seen it myself before, but there's definitely this power.
38:44
SPEAKER_00: So it's really interesting how...
38:45
SPEAKER_00: You almost have to toe a fine line.
38:47
SPEAKER_00: The Bible gave us the prophecy of the Lord.
38:49
SPEAKER_00: It's all the prophecy you really need is in Scripture right there for it.
38:53
SPEAKER_00: The music, you can sing the hymns.
38:55
SPEAKER_00: You can sing Scripture.
38:56
SPEAKER_00: You can go to the Psalms.
38:57
SPEAKER_00: Psalms literally means songs.
38:59
And you can go there and repeat those over in your heart,
39:01
and those have power.
39:03
SPEAKER_00: But where there's good, these can also be manipulated for the bad.
39:06
This technology,
39:07
I say,
39:07
it's a neutral technology that can be used for good or for evil.
39:10
SPEAKER_00: And I think we're seeing a case here where in this passage,
39:13
SPEAKER_00: you're seeing a lot of the spiritual stuff used for evil.
39:16
SPEAKER_00: And then Paul Silas are freed spiritually for good through music,
39:19
SPEAKER_00: which is really fascinating to me.
39:20
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think that's a really good point.
39:23
SPEAKER_02: And I think it's also important to note,
39:26
SPEAKER_02: so kind of as you explained,
39:28
SPEAKER_02: or we could summarize,
39:29
SPEAKER_02: that Paul is,
39:31
SPEAKER_02: we could say,
39:31
SPEAKER_02: greatly annoyed,
39:33
SPEAKER_02: to return to Acts 16 for a moment,
39:35
that he's greatly annoyed by the announcement of this demon
39:39
that he's a preacher of salvation.
39:41
SPEAKER_02: He's annoyed by that, not just, I would say, because of...
39:46
SPEAKER_02: This notion of association, which it is.
39:48
SPEAKER_02: That's definitely there.
39:49
I also think,
39:50
as we were kind of chatting before,
39:52
I think there's also a notion of distraction.
39:56
SPEAKER_02: I think a theme throughout Scripture,
40:00
SPEAKER_02: especially in the New Testament,
40:01
SPEAKER_02: is this notion of distracting from what is essential.
40:07
SPEAKER_02: And I think this is very early on.
40:08
SPEAKER_02: I always,
40:10
SPEAKER_02: I love that scene in Mark chapter two,
40:13
SPEAKER_02: where,
40:14
SPEAKER_02: you know,
40:14
SPEAKER_02: Jesus heals that guy,
40:15
SPEAKER_02: but what does he do beforehand?
40:17
SPEAKER_02: He forgives him.
40:18
SPEAKER_02: And there's this notion of like,
40:19
SPEAKER_02: what's easier to,
40:20
SPEAKER_02: you know,
40:20
SPEAKER_02: say forgiving of sins or to heal this guy.
40:23
And everyone's so caught up on the healing and Jesus is doing
40:27
those amazing
40:29
SPEAKER_02: supernatural miracles.
40:31
SPEAKER_02: Why?
40:31
SPEAKER_02: Why?
40:32
to to prove it's always a proof of who he is proof of truth and
40:38
the same carries
40:39
forward in the apostolic era whenever there's miracles going on
40:42
it's not just a
40:44
miracle for the sake of a miracle it's not just a deliverance
40:47
for the sake of
40:47
deliverance no it's always for the furtherance of and the
40:52
corroboration of
40:54
SPEAKER_02: The gospel, it's always in service of saying that, see how this is true?
41:00
That's because Jesus really rose from the dead and he died for
41:06
your sins and he was
41:07
SPEAKER_02: resurrected for your justification.
41:08
SPEAKER_02: It's always in the service of that.
41:11
SPEAKER_02: And I think that that's what is so key,
41:14
SPEAKER_02: I would say,
41:15
SPEAKER_02: in terms of understanding the book of Acts,
41:17
SPEAKER_02: is that these aren't just happening for the sake of happening.
41:21
They're happening to corroborate the greater truth,
41:24
which is that Jesus is alive,
41:27
right?
41:28
SPEAKER_00: Amen.
41:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
41:29
SPEAKER_00: and that's the thing,
41:29
SPEAKER_00: and I like what you said there,
41:30
SPEAKER_00: because I think that was a big piece of it,
41:31
SPEAKER_00: too,
41:31
SPEAKER_00: the distraction component.
41:33
SPEAKER_00: Because even if we have people coming in here like,
41:35
SPEAKER_00: oh,
41:35
SPEAKER_00: hail Jesus,
41:36
SPEAKER_00: let's get the demons out of here,
41:38
SPEAKER_00: let's free the people—
41:39
SPEAKER_00: Are all those things true?
41:40
SPEAKER_00: Can Jesus free you from demons, other demons around here?
41:42
SPEAKER_00: Could he get them away?
41:43
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, he definitely could.
41:44
SPEAKER_00: The Spirit's with you.
41:45
SPEAKER_00: But when that is magnified over things,
41:48
SPEAKER_00: it becomes a distraction,
41:49
which is why I'm always careful when people invite me to
41:52
deliverance ministries.
41:53
SPEAKER_00: They always want me to get involved and come see what they're doing.
41:56
SPEAKER_00: But it's always like a big circus in a way to me.
41:58
SPEAKER_00: It's like a circus around Jesus.
42:00
SPEAKER_00: Like Jesus just wants the clowns to go away.
42:02
I think sometimes how I feel is like – and I'm not saying – I
42:04
think these people
42:05
SPEAKER_00: are really well-intended.
42:06
SPEAKER_00: I think they think they're having big spiritual impacts.
42:08
SPEAKER_00: Maybe some things really do happen.
42:11
SPEAKER_00: But again,
42:11
a lot of ones I've seen focus like an error on Christians being delivered,
42:15
SPEAKER_00: which is really bizarre to me.
42:16
SPEAKER_00: That's a really bizarre take for me to get my handle on.
42:19
SPEAKER_00: But again, of who's being magnified, who's being glorified.
42:23
SPEAKER_00: Is it this person's so-and-so's ministry, deliverance ministry?
42:26
You really need to follow them because they're delivering
42:28
people left and right.
42:29
SPEAKER_00: And praise the Lord, spiritual warfare is going on.
42:31
SPEAKER_00: And it's like it can get sideways really, really quickly.
42:34
And I think that's why we have people who are so full-blown cessationists.
42:38
I was almost even raised to almost ignore the spirit realm
42:42
because you just want to
42:42
SPEAKER_00: stay away from the nonsense.
42:43
SPEAKER_00: Honestly, I hate to say it's almost safer in certain aspects.
42:47
SPEAKER_00: As much as I think it's incorrect to say that it's all gone,
42:50
SPEAKER_00: it does keep you away from a lot of nonsense,
42:54
which is why I have to almost pray to the Lord for bravery to
42:57
get involved in these
42:58
SPEAKER_00: kind of things.
42:59
SPEAKER_00: And I've seen a lot of things for the Lord to validate that it's true.
43:01
SPEAKER_00: But even then, every time I see these things, I'm careful.
43:05
SPEAKER_00: Even over the weekend, I had some weird situation.
43:08
Me and my friend are,
43:09
again,
43:09
me and Kyle,
43:10
we were out there playing music.
43:12
We want to use music as a tool to bring people to the gospel
43:14
and the Lord.
43:14
SPEAKER_00: And it was our first time.
43:15
SPEAKER_00: We were like, should we be in these places?
43:17
SPEAKER_00: These places aren't churches.
43:18
There's going to be some things going on that we might not want
43:20
to partake in.
43:20
SPEAKER_00: I said, we're just going to steer clear.
43:22
SPEAKER_00: We're going to go out and we're going to see what happens.
43:24
SPEAKER_00: And the Holy Spirit fell upon a guy like I'd never seen before.
43:26
SPEAKER_00: A big guy started tearing up and it was all about the gospel though.
43:29
SPEAKER_00: We pointed to the gospel.
43:30
I didn't give him my,
43:31
it wasn't about my name or Kyle's name or our music ministry.
43:34
SPEAKER_00: It was about the Lord and getting him into scripture,
43:36
SPEAKER_00: getting him into prayer and trusting that he has to have faith.
43:39
SPEAKER_00: He can't earn his way anymore.
43:40
SPEAKER_00: And that's what brought this about.
43:41
SPEAKER_00: And
43:42
SPEAKER_00: I would love for the Lord to do that every single time,
43:45
but the Lord doesn't have to do that every time I go play a
43:47
music show hoping to
43:48
SPEAKER_00: get the gospel.
43:49
SPEAKER_00: I see these kind of things.
43:50
SPEAKER_00: I would put that as,
43:51
SPEAKER_00: now I know somebody's arm didn't grow and whatever,
43:54
SPEAKER_00: and somebody didn't come back from the dead,
43:55
SPEAKER_00: but I saw that as a personal miracle for myself.
43:58
SPEAKER_00: This guy breaking down in tears like he uncontrollable,
44:00
he even said I'd never expect in this kind of place to have an
44:03
encounter with the
44:04
SPEAKER_00: Lord here.
44:05
SPEAKER_00: I see that as a confirmation of getting the gospel,
44:08
and I took it as I need to get this music out to more people
44:11
out there and point
44:11
SPEAKER_00: them to the gospel.
44:12
SPEAKER_00: I didn't get it as,
44:13
SPEAKER_00: like,
44:14
I need to get out here and start doing ministry and deliverance
44:16
to get people to
44:17
come down in tears and get hit with the Holy Spirit and slain
44:20
in the Spirit and all
44:21
SPEAKER_00: these kind of things that can get attached to it.
44:23
SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, I'm somebody probably in the middle ground.
44:26
SPEAKER_00: I don't think, you know, all these spirits are gone by any means.
44:29
SPEAKER_00: Wow.
44:30
If you hear me talk about aliens,
44:31
I think it's a lot of demonic deception again.
44:33
SPEAKER_00: I think that there's a lot of deception going on,
44:37
SPEAKER_00: but I'm not going to eliminate it by any means,
44:38
but I'm also not going to go full-blown and make my whole life
44:41
about these
44:42
SPEAKER_00: supernatural entities that I'm going to go out and fight.
44:45
And I do believe that the reason you see demonic entities more
44:48
in the New Testament
44:49
SPEAKER_00: and the Old Testament—
44:51
SPEAKER_00: It wasn't because they just showed up in the New Testament.
44:52
SPEAKER_00: Some people make the argument that,
44:54
SPEAKER_00: oh,
44:54
SPEAKER_00: where were the demonic things going on in the Old Testament?
44:57
SPEAKER_00: Well,
44:57
SPEAKER_00: I think they're around,
44:58
but I think the reason we see them so big in the New Testament
45:01
and then even into
45:02
SPEAKER_00: Acts here is because they're trying to stop the gospel.
45:06
SPEAKER_00: The gospel has finally arrived.
45:07
SPEAKER_00: The mystery has been revealed, and now it's danger zone.
45:10
SPEAKER_00: It's almost like an all-out war.
45:11
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
45:12
SPEAKER_00: All around the world today,
45:14
SPEAKER_00: anywhere you go,
45:14
SPEAKER_00: there's some fighting and some skirmishes,
45:16
SPEAKER_00: but there's some big outbreak.
45:17
Now what you see in Ukraine or Russia or Israel or Gaza,
45:21
now there's these high-volume wars.
45:24
SPEAKER_00: And I think the spiritual realm worked the same way.
45:26
When you see the gospel go forth,
45:28
I think even today when you see the gospel go forth—
45:30
You're going to see demonic influence try to distract you,
45:33
try to push back on you.
45:34
SPEAKER_00: I'm not saying you're going to possess people,
45:36
SPEAKER_00: but you'll see these forces rise up against the gospel.
45:38
I think that's what was happening here and why you see in the
45:41
New Testament when
45:41
SPEAKER_00: Christ comes around all these demons being delivered.
45:43
SPEAKER_00: Why?
45:44
SPEAKER_00: Because it was their last-ditch effort to stop what he was about to do.
45:48
SPEAKER_02: That's right.
45:50
SPEAKER_02: I don't want to use this.
45:51
SPEAKER_02: I know that Matthew 14 and Peter walking in the water is not about this,
45:55
SPEAKER_02: but I'm just going to use this as sort of a good analogy.
45:59
SPEAKER_02: And that's sort of an analogy for the ministry of the church.
46:04
SPEAKER_02: Focus on Jesus.
46:06
And when you get distracted by all these other things,
46:08
that's when you start to sink.
46:10
SPEAKER_02: Now,
46:10
SPEAKER_02: I preached on this passage,
46:12
SPEAKER_02: that's why it's fresh in my head,
46:13
SPEAKER_02: which is just to say,
46:14
SPEAKER_02: that's not to say that the storm isn't real.
46:16
SPEAKER_02: Right.
46:17
there's very real things happening all around us there's very
46:20
real waves very real
46:21
wind very real rain that peter was feeling but the point was
46:25
his eyes were to be
46:27
gazing only on the christ who was already standing on the water
46:31
in front of him and
46:32
similarly let's like we could say let's transpose that to the
46:35
church the focus is
46:37
SPEAKER_02: on jesus the focus is on the cross in his empty tomb
46:40
SPEAKER_02: And these other things,
46:42
SPEAKER_02: while they may happen,
46:43
SPEAKER_02: while they can happen,
46:45
we can't summon them as if the Holy Spirit and the word of
46:50
deliverance is like a
46:51
SPEAKER_02: vending machine that we just plug in this little thing,
46:53
SPEAKER_02: and then we get this little thing,
46:55
SPEAKER_02: and then now we can go out and deliver people willy-nilly.
46:57
SPEAKER_02: No, that's not how it works.
46:58
SPEAKER_02: God's not a divine vending machine.
46:59
SPEAKER_02: All right.
47:02
SPEAKER_02: It's not that we can just summon it whenever we want.
47:04
SPEAKER_02: The focus is on the Word and the Spirit.
47:06
That's the way that God reveals himself always is through the
47:10
Word of God,
47:11
SPEAKER_02: the Spirit of God,
47:12
SPEAKER_02: which always lead us to Christ,
47:14
SPEAKER_02: right?
47:14
SPEAKER_02: That's the whole point.
47:16
SPEAKER_02: And so whenever we're distracted by something else,
47:20
or whenever we're focused on something else,
47:22
it's because we've gotten our eyes off of Jesus.
47:24
SPEAKER_02: We've gotten our eyes off of the one who we should be focusing on.
47:29
SPEAKER_02: Return again.
47:30
SPEAKER_02: It's a passage that keeps getting beaten into my head, you know,
47:36
set your eyes on jesus the author and finisher of our faith
47:39
hebrews 12 um that's
47:42
where all of the ministries of the church no matter what they
47:46
look like no matter
47:47
what they are that that's where they are supposed to return to
47:51
that he's the
47:51
central hub he's he's the fulcrum he's the axle whatever
47:56
whatever metaphor you want
47:57
SPEAKER_02: to choose he's the focus
47:59
SPEAKER_02: And I think that's at play in Acts 16,
48:03
SPEAKER_02: which,
48:03
SPEAKER_02: again,
48:03
SPEAKER_02: as you've explained so well,
48:06
I think that's the key sort of lens by which we can discern
48:13
deliverance ministries,
48:14
SPEAKER_02: other ministries that are happening.
48:17
SPEAKER_02: You've seen the TikToks.
48:18
I've seen the TikToks of these just wild bananas services,
48:24
church services,
48:25
quote-unquote,
48:27
SPEAKER_02: where just people are hollering and hooting and they're running around,
48:30
SPEAKER_02: they're jumping on pews,
48:31
SPEAKER_02: and I've seen them.
48:33
And again,
48:33
go back to the,
48:35
take the whole counsel of God,
48:38
take the full scope of Scripture.
48:40
SPEAKER_02: Paul has a word for that too.
48:41
SPEAKER_02: 1 Corinthians,
48:42
SPEAKER_02: he talks about the orderliness,
48:43
SPEAKER_02: the way in which ministry,
48:46
SPEAKER_02: the ministry of the Word and the Spirit unfolds.
48:49
SPEAKER_02: It doesn't look like that.
48:51
SPEAKER_02: Right.
48:52
SPEAKER_02: He's out of order.
48:53
SPEAKER_02: We are enamored by that.
48:56
SPEAKER_02: Like you've mentioned,
48:58
it kind of speaks to this part of us that can get caught up in
49:02
this very emotional
49:05
SPEAKER_02: and very just ecstatic sort of experience.
49:09
SPEAKER_02: And I think that's why Paul says what he says here,
49:13
SPEAKER_02: why he expels this spirit of divination,
49:15
SPEAKER_02: but also why this passage is preserved for us.
49:18
SPEAKER_02: Because the whole focus of this passage,
49:22
SPEAKER_02: if you take it in full,
49:23
is the start of this Philippian church through all of these
49:28
very incredibly evil
49:32
SPEAKER_02: and very real obstacles.
49:35
SPEAKER_02: It comes back to what?
49:37
SPEAKER_02: What he tells the jailer, believe in God, belief, faith in the gospel.
49:42
SPEAKER_02: That's what it's all about, and I think that's the heart of Acts 16.
49:45
SPEAKER_02: It's the heart of the church, and that's the lens, we could say.
49:49
That's the glasses,
49:51
our spectacles by which we can discern anything is that message.
49:56
SPEAKER_02: It's the message of Christ alone, right?
49:58
SPEAKER_00: Yes,
49:58
SPEAKER_00: and I believe that's where,
49:59
SPEAKER_00: like,
49:59
SPEAKER_00: you know,
50:00
SPEAKER_00: people rip on the mainstream media and stuff for,
50:02
SPEAKER_00: of all sides,
50:03
from taking only a part of the story and running with it and
50:05
leaving out important parts.
50:07
SPEAKER_00: And that's almost what you see here with these delivered mentions.
50:09
SPEAKER_00: Like,
50:09
SPEAKER_00: imagine,
50:09
SPEAKER_00: like,
50:10
SPEAKER_00: it's almost they treat these kind of things like if Paul,
50:12
SPEAKER_00: you know,
50:13
SPEAKER_00: delivered the spirit and then Paul did great things.
50:16
SPEAKER_00: Like, you know what I mean?
50:16
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
50:16
SPEAKER_00: But it's like, no, keep reading the rest of the chapter.
50:18
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
50:19
SPEAKER_00: How does this end?
50:20
SPEAKER_00: He goes to jail for it,
50:20
SPEAKER_00: and then he's really pointing people to Christ,
50:23
SPEAKER_00: like you said,
50:23
SPEAKER_00: just to believe.
50:24
SPEAKER_00: There's no extra thing.
50:25
What I love also about Paul here and what I have problems with
50:28
when people want me
50:29
SPEAKER_00: to come and talk to them about these spiritual things or whatever,
50:31
SPEAKER_00: and they want me to do some exorcism or whatever,
50:33
I think they're expecting me to be like a Catholic priest and
50:35
have this whole process,
50:36
SPEAKER_00: and I had to go to school.
50:37
SPEAKER_00: Did you train for this?
50:39
SPEAKER_00: It's like, did Paul train for that?
50:42
SPEAKER_00: You never see this ritualistic thing,
50:43
SPEAKER_00: and then he got the Holy Oil,
50:45
SPEAKER_00: and then he went down and he said five Hail Marys,
50:48
SPEAKER_00: and then he did these things.
50:49
SPEAKER_01: He spoke in Latin.
50:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
50:52
SPEAKER_00: The original language of the demons.
50:54
which I don't know why they all speak Latin,
50:55
but I guess,
50:56
I don't know,
50:56
yeah.
50:57
SPEAKER_00: But it's interesting that you see here that,
50:59
SPEAKER_00: you know,
50:59
SPEAKER_00: and I do believe it can happen,
51:01
SPEAKER_00: again,
51:01
SPEAKER_00: rare,
51:02
SPEAKER_00: but it can happen out there,
51:03
SPEAKER_00: depending on where you're at,
51:04
SPEAKER_00: too,
51:05
SPEAKER_00: that there's no process,
51:06
SPEAKER_00: there's no studying you've got to do,
51:08
SPEAKER_00: it's just you have to have the Spirit of the Lord,
51:09
SPEAKER_00: and you've got to be pointing people to the Lord,
51:11
SPEAKER_00: delivering them by pointing them to Jesus,
51:13
SPEAKER_00: right,
51:13
SPEAKER_00: whatever that is,
51:13
SPEAKER_00: and you're speaking to them,
51:14
SPEAKER_00: there's nothing crazy about it.
51:16
SPEAKER_00: Also,
51:16
SPEAKER_00: you have to remember,
51:17
SPEAKER_00: two chapters before Acts 16,
51:19
SPEAKER_00: it's Acts chapter 14,
51:21
SPEAKER_00: and I believe that is the chapter...
51:23
SPEAKER_00: where he's called Hermes and Zeus.
51:26
SPEAKER_00: Barnabas is called Zeus.
51:27
SPEAKER_00: And so what's going on here?
51:30
That's probably why you don't see it as much with Peter and the
51:32
other people
51:33
SPEAKER_00: because when they're talking to the Jews,
51:34
SPEAKER_00: the Jews were not so much into the occult,
51:36
SPEAKER_00: right?
51:37
Whereas the Greeks and the people and the Gentiles were just
51:40
living in this occult-like world.
51:43
SPEAKER_00: So you have a couple chapters before.
51:45
They're getting called these Greek gods because they think
51:47
these are these spirits
51:48
SPEAKER_00: involved in all these things.
51:50
SPEAKER_00: And now you have it here in Acts 16.
51:51
SPEAKER_00: They believe in the spirit of Python.
51:53
SPEAKER_00: If you ever find these demonic entities,
51:56
SPEAKER_00: what you're going to find them is people who are into the occult.
51:59
SPEAKER_00: That's where they're at.
51:59
SPEAKER_00: It's not in the everyday people.
52:01
SPEAKER_00: You're not going to find this.
52:02
SPEAKER_00: What I've found in my own experiences,
52:04
SPEAKER_00: and I could be wrong a little bit,
52:06
but I found out that the people that tell me they are seeing
52:09
these UFOs or whatever,
52:10
SPEAKER_00: You dig deeper,
52:11
SPEAKER_00: and they were involved in some seance or some Ouija board,
52:14
SPEAKER_00: or they've been practicing some new religion,
52:16
SPEAKER_00: or they got a magic book with rituals and spells,
52:18
SPEAKER_00: and it's an invitation in.
52:20
SPEAKER_00: And I believe these people had invited the spirit of Python in.
52:24
SPEAKER_00: So where you're going to find these kind of things,
52:25
SPEAKER_00: and it's usually,
52:26
SPEAKER_00: again,
52:26
SPEAKER_00: like the most I've heard of is in Africa.
52:28
I was in East Africa,
52:29
and there are some bizarre things that happen,
52:31
but why?
52:32
because they have witch doctors and they don't send people to
52:34
the hospital they do
52:34
witch doctors and they get into all this occult stuff so of
52:37
course when you invite
52:38
these things in weird things will happen but if you're going to
52:41
walk down the
52:42
street of your town and see people demon possessed all over the
52:44
place I don't think
52:45
SPEAKER_00: that's so is there going to be demonic activity?
52:47
SPEAKER_00: sure it's all over our culture I do actually believe that I do believe
52:51
SPEAKER_00: There's demonic influence,
52:52
SPEAKER_00: but it's very different than what you're seeing here,
52:54
SPEAKER_00: very different than what deliverance ministries are pointing at,
52:57
SPEAKER_00: and again,
52:57
I don't think it's all focused on your generational curse of
53:00
what your father and
53:00
SPEAKER_00: your grandfather,
53:01
SPEAKER_00: you've got to break these stronghold curses,
53:03
SPEAKER_00: because again,
53:04
SPEAKER_00: it seems to leave those people there,
53:05
SPEAKER_00: and it's always focused on these hurts,
53:07
SPEAKER_00: and it almost kind of reminds me of a glorified psychologist,
53:10
SPEAKER_00: is how sometimes they take it,
53:11
SPEAKER_00: and they just sprinkle in a little bit of Jesus,
53:13
SPEAKER_00: and to tackle these things.
53:15
SPEAKER_00: But I found out where you're going to find these things,
53:17
SPEAKER_00: just like you found them here in Acts 16 or Acts 14,
53:19
SPEAKER_00: are people that are
53:20
SPEAKER_00: heavily involved in the occult.
53:23
SPEAKER_00: If I'm getting called by...
53:25
SPEAKER_00: Seriously,
53:25
the last time I remember somebody calling me and saying they
53:27
had spiritual activity
53:28
SPEAKER_00: in their house,
53:28
SPEAKER_00: I actually believe,
53:29
SPEAKER_00: I went there.
53:31
SPEAKER_00: First question I asked, what's going on here?
53:33
SPEAKER_00: What have you done so far?
53:34
SPEAKER_00: Well,
53:35
SPEAKER_00: it started with this Ouija board thing,
53:36
so we went down to the holistic shop and got crystals and
53:38
started putting...
53:39
SPEAKER_00: I go,
53:39
SPEAKER_00: well,
53:40
SPEAKER_00: you're just pouring gas on this fire.
53:43
SPEAKER_00: You invited something in here,
53:45
SPEAKER_00: and I don't have to do any ritual other than pray the name of Jesus here.
53:47
SPEAKER_00: I'm going to pray over you guys, pray for you, and...
53:50
SPEAKER_00: And that's it.
53:50
SPEAKER_00: Like, that's it.
53:51
SPEAKER_00: And I didn't see anything magical happen there.
53:53
SPEAKER_00: The people said that nothing happened.
53:54
SPEAKER_00: I didn't see some spirit fly out or anything like that.
53:57
SPEAKER_00: But I think when those kind of things happen,
53:59
SPEAKER_00: when weird things are happening,
54:01
SPEAKER_00: it's always,
54:02
SPEAKER_00: in my experience,
54:03
SPEAKER_00: that the occult was involved and that they were inviting them in,
54:06
SPEAKER_00: which I say is exactly what we do with the Holy Spirit.
54:08
SPEAKER_00: Just like the Holy Spirit, he doesn't just come into your heart.
54:10
SPEAKER_00: Why isn't everybody saved by the blood of Jesus?
54:13
SPEAKER_00: Because they haven't invited him in yet.
54:14
SPEAKER_00: You actually have to admit your sins and invite him in.
54:17
SPEAKER_00: Same thing, I think, goes with these demonic spirits.
54:19
SPEAKER_00: So if you're going to run into this kind of stuff,
54:21
SPEAKER_00: it's usually people that are practicing the occult.
54:23
SPEAKER_00: They're practicing magic, and they've invited this evil in.
54:26
SPEAKER_00: And they're not always possessed.
54:27
SPEAKER_00: It's just an influence around them by some means.
54:29
SPEAKER_00: But again...
54:31
SPEAKER_00: If it's Jesus Christ that everything needs to point to,
54:33
SPEAKER_00: and if you ever run into some weird spiritual situation,
54:35
SPEAKER_00: which I think is rare for most people,
54:37
SPEAKER_00: but if you run into these things,
54:39
SPEAKER_00: remember to point people to Jesus Christ.
54:41
Don't get caught up in the magic of the miracles and all these
54:44
kind of things,
54:45
SPEAKER_00: because like we've said before,
54:46
SPEAKER_00: the Bible has miracles.
54:47
SPEAKER_00: They're all true.
54:48
SPEAKER_00: I think miracles can happen today.
54:50
But if they're going to happen,
54:51
it's going to get people saved,
54:52
point people to Christ.
54:53
SPEAKER_00: It's not be like, wow, look what I can do.
54:56
And I think that's where,
54:57
again,
54:57
the entertainment thing starts to blend in.
54:59
Like,
54:59
this is really cool to see people do deliverance and stuff like that.
55:02
SPEAKER_00: It's like, no, no, no.
55:03
SPEAKER_00: If we're doing deliverance, this person has to come to Christ.
55:05
SPEAKER_00: That's why I have a problem again.
55:07
And I'm sorry if you're really in deliverance ministries
55:09
because I know the spirits
55:10
SPEAKER_00: are real and stuff.
55:11
SPEAKER_00: But like...
55:12
If you're trying to deliver Christians,
55:15
just think about this for a second.
55:16
SPEAKER_00: What are you going to point to?
55:17
SPEAKER_00: Christ where they're already apparently pointed to?
55:20
SPEAKER_00: Maybe there's another issue here beyond what you think it is,
55:23
SPEAKER_00: and maybe you're projecting the spiritual realm upon them.
55:26
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think that's such a good point.
55:28
SPEAKER_02: It comes back to the word.
55:30
There's a reason why God told his people in the Old Testament
55:33
not to dabble in this stuff.
55:35
SPEAKER_02: It's because not only is it dangerous,
55:37
SPEAKER_02: but I think the other sort of like the twin pillars of this,
55:40
SPEAKER_02: that if we want to like give the gist of this at the hour mark,
55:45
SPEAKER_02: the gist of all of this is it's dangerous,
55:48
SPEAKER_02: but it's also distracting.
55:49
SPEAKER_02: And it just it takes you away from Christ.
55:52
And that's why,
55:53
you know,
55:53
the simplest truth is often the truest truth,
55:57
which is.
55:58
SPEAKER_02: Fix your eyes on Jesus.
55:59
SPEAKER_02: He's going to be the one to fill you.
56:01
He's going to be the one to satisfy you and sustain you,
56:05
not something else.
56:06
SPEAKER_02: So the analogy of Peter walking in the water, fix your eyes on Jesus.
56:11
SPEAKER_02: Hebrews 12, fix your eyes on Jesus.
56:13
SPEAKER_02: That's really the through line and thread of Scripture.
56:16
SPEAKER_02: And it is always what we come back to.
56:20
And so hopefully,
56:23
if you've been listening to this so far,
56:24
hopefully you've found this...
56:27
It's enriching but also enlightening and also encouraging
56:32
because there's lots of
56:35
SPEAKER_02: places and forms and areas where we can be distracted as the church.
56:41
And hopefully this can help you discern and have some wisdom
56:45
whenever you see these
56:46
SPEAKER_02: things pop up in your algorithm.
56:48
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
56:48
SPEAKER_02: Pop up in your news feed, right?
56:51
SPEAKER_02: Do you have anything else you want to add?
56:53
SPEAKER_00: No,
56:53
just if you've been involved in looking out for these extra
56:58
spiritual kind of things,
56:59
SPEAKER_00: just be careful.
57:00
SPEAKER_00: Make sure, like Brad said, keep your eyes on Christ.
57:03
SPEAKER_00: That was some stormy waters there, and we're in storms of life.
57:06
SPEAKER_00: Don't turn to the magic, the miracles.
57:08
SPEAKER_00: Turn to Jesus, and if that stuff happens, so be it.
57:11
But again,
57:12
if you're involved in these kind of things,
57:14
point people to Jesus Christ.
57:15
SPEAKER_02: That's right.
57:16
SPEAKER_02: Well, thanks so much for listening.
57:17
SPEAKER_02: I hope you've been blessed by this episode.
57:19
SPEAKER_02: Make sure to subscribe to Ministry Minded wherever you get your podcasts,
57:22
SPEAKER_02: Apple,
57:22
SPEAKER_02: Spotify,
57:23
SPEAKER_02: wherever.
57:24
SPEAKER_02: But also, I just appreciate all of your encouragement and support.
57:27
SPEAKER_02: Thanks for listening and commenting and subscribing.
57:30
SPEAKER_02: I'll see you on the next episode.
57:32
SPEAKER_02: Blessings.