Latest / The MeatEater Podcast / Ep. 296: When Death Comes for You

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Ep. 296: When Death Comes for You · The MeatEater Podcast

• 0:08
  Speaker 1: This is me eat podcast coming at you shirtless, severely,
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: bug bitten and in my case, underwear listening podcast. You
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: can't predict anything presented by first, like creating proven versatile
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: hunting apparel from Marino bass layers to technical outerwear for
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: every hunt. First like go farther, stay longer. Alright, Pat,
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: we're discussing uh. Pat Durkin's here um and Pat writes
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: a lot about death, So this is the death episode.
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: It's like a Halloween special about death than Pat nearing
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: death himself. I was just sharing with us like an
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: old man's secret, laying honest, and my old man's secret
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: that seems to be impressing people here is I got
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: hearing aids for the first time about two and a
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: half years ago, and one of the thing that's cool
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: about them is it's run. They run off an app
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: on my iPhone, and so if I'm in the crowd
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: and the sounds a little bit too loud, I'm gonna
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: hit turning the app, sink my my hearing aids, and
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: then turn things down a little bit and you can
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: actually um then control it too. If there's certain pitches
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: that are bothering you, like from I have grandkids if
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: you can turn down a little bit, because you know,
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: grandkids have they make noises that really irritate my left ear.
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: So so that's really specific. So I'm trying to I'm
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: trying to get better at these things because I when
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: I walk into certain environments, now I'm learning before I
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: go in there. It's kind of like, you know, when
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: you have an allergy, like I do for dogs and cats,
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: I take a pill before I go into people's homes
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: that dogs and cats. So now I walked in my
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: grandkids settings, I just the hearing aid. So that's great. Man,
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: what brand you are? You like a brand evangelists for
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: what kind of you? I didn't know what I have.
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: One thing I found fascinating about those hearing ags was
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: yesterday Pat called me and he was like calling me
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: through his hearing age. Man, the man I was calling Seth's.
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: He let me in and then he answers the door
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: just just as my um my, my phone starts telling me,
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: you know, you can't connect to this guy, leave a
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: message that kind of thing. So ses talking to me
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: face to face. Meanwhile, I'm getting all this stuff on
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: my iPhone. Um, you know, how are you want to answer,
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: leave a message, all this kind of stuff. So somewhere
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: in my recordings is all this self background information. Yeah,
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: my phone, you left a ten minute long voicemail conversation.
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: This made me, This made me look forward to getting there.
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: I got the hearing loss you get from shooting gun.
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: That's what we just the left ear. It's the ear
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: like when you put your cheek to the gun. So
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: my right ears on left handed, and they could tell
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: what what frequency you lose and from being around Yeah,
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: and also like duck hunting with some dude rings one
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: off next to your face. The worst was back in
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: the nineties. Um, it was a common before people really
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: understood them. It was um muzzle brakes, and they eventually
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: got something you could turn them on and turn them off,
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: so it wasn't so bad. But I blasted my left
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: ear twice with those muzzle brakes without really realized when
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: I was getting into and it was like, um, I
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: knew when the rifle went off because all of a sudden,
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: the freaking world is collapsed. He's just no nothing going
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: on in my head, just shock. Yeah, I'm it's hard
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: for me to decide what to do about it. With
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: with my kids, because like we just had youth duck season, right,
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: So I took my boy out and my older boy
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: and my little boy went out with us, and um,
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: I put the big earphones on them. But then they
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: can't hear anything, right, So you're screaming, yelling at him
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: to do something and they have no idea. You're screaming
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: and yelling at him to do it. You know. You
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: know what Kelly I was about. He's like, I can't
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: I can't handle it, Like I don't like being around
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: him that much anyway, you know, But when they can't
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: hear you know what today's technology, they don't like those
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: what they don't like it? Somehow I put them on him.
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: They get they don't like it. You need to get yes,
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: well those like are those like a ear protection to
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: like an earpro No, you need to put ear protection
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: on too. But buddy, I don't know if you ever
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: met Tony Paul's kill. He's he's from Farm Family, Wisconsin.
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: He during the Golf War works over at Vortex Now.
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: He was a marine sniper during the Golf War. He
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: uh in a bunker shooting a bunker somehow like destroyed
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: his ears. Um and he wears some souped up here
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: in aids. But now what he does for hearing protection
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: when he's shooting. He was kind of not supposed to
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: do this, but he just turns them down when he's shooting.
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: He's like, I don't know if that's really making it worse. Hey,
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: let me say something. If we're talking about hearing, you know,
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: my are we what was my right here? I've lost
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: a significant amount of hearing to the point that it
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: affects my life, you know, like you're I can't hear
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: the direction dollars. So that that started happening when I
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: was in the ninth grade, and it's unknown, you know,
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: probably triggered by shooting guns. But but the hearing when
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: I went when I was like thirty five to you know,
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: just a few years ago, to the hearing specialists. They
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: told me if I had come when I was a
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: kid younger, that that a hearing aid would have helped.
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: But basically she was like, man, you're that part of
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: your brain is starting to shut down and you'll probably
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: never get it back. And so I actually have a
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: hearing aid that I never wear because it doesn't help.
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: So point, man, if you have hearing trouble, don't wait
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: until you're like you got you got a legitimate handicap
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: where you can't tell where your dogs are barking. Yeah,
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: if it affects my world, yeah, all my other senses
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: are extremely heightened. Though. That's because people say that, like
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: ship makes up for you read about that, You read
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: about that, Gal helen Keller. Yeah, before we leave, Pat
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: and old Man Wisdom talk, I was chatting with him yesterday.
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: I feel like I got a wedge of sim No,
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: go ahead. Pal was saying that you can't. We're talking
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: about running and arthritic knees and stuff like that, and
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: me being forty three, and how I was feeling a
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: little bit of my knees and all that. All this,
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna I'm gonna abridge the story a little bit.
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: But in the end he says, look, you can't stop aging,
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: which you can't fight it. And then he said, and
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna fight it to the bitter end, this guy. Yeah,
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: And I took that home with me last night, and yeah, exactly,
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: I was feeling super inspired. Yes, you have no choice, Yeah,
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: but you might be having like, no, you do somebody
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: who don't fight it at all. Well, part of the
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: fighting is having the Like I was jugging with Pat
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: before we started about I was like, man, that's some
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: legit old man stuff. To be able to control your
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: hearing aids on your phone, that would be a major
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: inhibitor for most people just technology. I mean, that's that's
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: that's fighting it to the bitter end, might be. And
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: he was getting tattoos, which is I feel like, Oh,
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: I don't know, he's like, he's like he looks like
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: a like a chef from Nashville. Man, go pack, No, No,
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: that's that's silly. I wouldn't do that. Those are right now?
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: Those are pats do you have? That's this guy right here? Pat?
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: Do you have plans for another one? Um? Right now?
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: The only one I get being my wedding ring because
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: I've been we're when we're in any like you've been
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: to jail? Man some more about the jail looking thing, man,
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: tear drops for every looks like you've been in jail.
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: A wedding ring looks like you've been to jail. Bad
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: So Steve, Steve Nixon, that idea Okay, Tracy Crane's here.
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: You have been on a long time a little while.
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: It's been a long time wait when when was the
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: last time the when you were on the turkey episode. No,
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: I think it was after my first deer hunt with
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: you two fine fellas. I believe so, yeah, because because
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: you even blocked it out. Yeah, Tracy got a sideline
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: by having a baby, but you um still sideline. You're
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: still feeling it a little bit. Life never returned so
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: the way it was before. At least I don't anticipate
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: it returning the show. I knew that before. You can
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: go watch Tracy on Netflix hunting turkeys, um crying, crying
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: on their ice fishing like her first ice fishing expedition,
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: crying there too that day, Tracy. Uh yeah, like antelope hunting,
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: your first antelope hunting trip, totally and then like vanished.
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: Well he's still down here, all yeah, if I was,
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: you be down here all the time. No, No, I
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: still work here. No, No, but you're not. You haven't
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: you haven't up mixing it up lately. No, No, not
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: with you guys. She has plans to that people. People
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: wouldn't know this. I wouldn't know it, and I mean,
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: maybe it's not something we want to talk about. But
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: Tracy is like the heart and soul of meat. Eater
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: for sure. I don't know that that's true. That's true
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: because you know, like people might assume that like, well,
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: she's been on the show. I mean people talk to
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: me about the meter shows and they're like or I
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: might say, hey, Tracy's my boss, and they'll be like, yeah,
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: I wouldn't you on the show, And they're trying to
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: connect like where she fits because people only see like
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: the faces of meat Eater there on the podcast, that's what.
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: But Tracy is the real deal. She's like a puppeteer.
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: Thank you. I don't know that way. Thank you, Tracy.
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: Can people can people find out I don't want to
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: say this, but can people find out where you live? Yeah?
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: I mean why would they give a ship where I
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: lived and talked about what my boy did in your yard? Oh,
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: certainly go and talk about that. So I want to
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: give people an idea. Well, I mean, go ahead. I
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: have no problem with that. And I told him he's
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: got to try to lock Did you lock up his
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: permission for this year? Sure? It did. I think he
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: arrived at my home maybe like two weeks ago. It
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: was like, hey, um, can I come back again? Have
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: you given away that spot to anybody else you trained him? Well, no,
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: what's that like? Got a waite till doll right in
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: your yard? Wow? Oh he was tickled. The only thing
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: that will be more challenging for him this year is
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: we took that little that little shack down before we hid. Yeah,
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: where you guys were leaning up against. I don't know.
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: I'm a better hunter. He listened. He did some hard hunts, man,
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: he did some hard hunts, and now his easy hunt.
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: He seem to really enjoy that one the most. It
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: was a good time, all right. Oh here's an interesting thing, man,
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: and it fits with the Halloween. The Halloween special is uh,
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: if you are you worried? This now seth Well, like
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: our new episodes, like we just we just put five
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: we have we launched five new episodes like like season
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: ten Part a UM on Netflix, and and there's one
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: we have a flint Lock episode and in the flat
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: I can't even believe it made the show. But in
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: the flint Lock episode we find a bizarre little haunted
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: snowman thing. I'm supposed it made a show too, but
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: I don't know why they Like I kind of forgot
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: about it. Then the editor found it, and we're like, oh,
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: that's funny. We leave it in there. And it's a
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: little snowman wearing Hunters orange. And I thought it was
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: like a little effigy. I don't know what. It was
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: like a warning. It was set in the middle of
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: the trail and he had blaze orange vast and a
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: blaze orange hat and little sticks for arms and he
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: was maybe like what eight inches tall. They're like little
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: pieces of grass or something. Weird as weird ask little
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: thing and and and it made the show where we
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: talked about it looks like it's like Blair Witch project
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: Snowman out in the woods. A dude yesterday rights in
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: that was his snowman and he was hunting elk. He
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: was hunting elk with his old man. They stopped, made
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: a little snowman, took a picture of it. He sent
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: us the picture and he says then that then they're
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: watching the show and there's their snowman. Yeah. Wow. He
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: had a cow elk tag. Snow here it is. And
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: I went back this morning and looked at the episode,
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: looked at the snow man in the episode, and then
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: looked at this because I was like, I'm double checking,
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: you are questioning. Yeah, he and yeah, I went back
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: and looked. It's identical. He thought he went out and
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: tried to make a snowman to match. Well, I don't know,
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: come on, I yeah, I just I checked. Did he
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: explain him like why they decided to make a little
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: snowman while they were hunting? No? No, you could write
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: him back, you could like do it follow up? Did
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: he cut a piece of his hunter's orange off his vest?
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: I guess I mean that's good? Yeah, yeah, the young
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: and he's open up a open up economy. Do this? Uh?
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: Sorrybody knows that Patsy were talking to him? Sass. Here
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: filled the engineer gran Chester. We're gonna preview Chester's new project.
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: She hasn't got the green light? Out at a confirmation
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: about he hasn't got the green light. He hasn't gotten
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: the green light. I don't want to be annoying, so
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: I don't keep asking me. But I got a lot
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: of good ideas. Tracy, once again to etiquette and uh honest,
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: Uh a quick news on item. This is pretty interesting.
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: We we did a whole episode on a guy that
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: got toxoplasmosis from wild Game, and a lot of people
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: get it from not a lot I mean, there's not
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: a lot of it out there, but people get it
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: from wild game. And toxoplasmosis, as we've covered extensively, is
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: a disease you get from if you're eating undercooked meat
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: and it passes. It has to pass through catship, but
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: a wide variety of feelines, wild feelines, domestic feelines can
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: carry it. They have to shat on a out on
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: a piece of grass. Let's say it makes contact with grass.
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: An herbivore and ungulate whatever can eat the grass can
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: eat the cheat and become infected with toxoplasmosis. So we
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: had a guy from Hawaii, Danny Bolton, came on the
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: show and talked about his trials and tribulations with toxoplasmosis.
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: Then we followed up and covered some interesting research. Um,
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: because this is weird ass deal with toxoplasmosis where it
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: reduces your inhibitions. Okay, So they were doing research in Africa.
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: They're doing research on hyenas and it was cram you
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: remember this. A hundred percent of hyenas who contracted toxoplasmosis
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: were killed by lions. I don't remember if it was
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: they were they got the toxoplasmosis from lions. They got
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: it through feeline. It was it was hyena cubs that
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: were positive for toxic. They all positive hyena cubs due
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: to loss of inhibition, fall prey to a feeline because
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: they got closer to lions and their normal behavior might otherwise.
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: Uh yeah, So it's like this weird parasitic result where
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: and it was brought up that like that at by
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: distributing toxo plasmosis around makes his own job easier because
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: his prey base becomes less afraid grooming them. Like you're like, yeah,
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: creating easier prey base. I guess there's no better way
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: to put it. Then we had to sing where there's
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: an article that someone sent us and we covered about
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: heightened entrepreneurial ship. Entrepreneur always say that word wrong ship,
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: entrepreneurial behavior. That's a good way to put it. Heightened
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: entrepreneurial behavior on people who have had toxico plasmosis risk common.
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: How did they How did they study this? I can't remember,
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: But here's the thing. There's a new article out National
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: Institute of Health. Oh, you guys know the that Movie's
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: Secret and nim H animated move mouse right? Yeah, is
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: nim the National Institute of Mental Health. It's about rats
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: to get like experiment in it on it becomes super
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: smart and somehow they don't explain the movie. They wind
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: up with a magic gemstone Nationalist. So this is National
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: Institute of Health and and I m H is the
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: National Institute of Mental Health. Yeah, that's a real thing.
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: That's a real thing based in the Pheasant, Maryland. That's
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: what my wife was telling my kids when we were
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: watching Secret and Him last night. But but just to
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: be clear, the institution has nothing to do with with
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: the movie. It's like a fantasy movie. It takes true
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: in the wood. That's who's experimenting on the rats, is it. Yeah,
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: they injected rats with a lime green with a lime
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: green serum, and one day the rats can read the
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: instructions of how to unlock the cage. Okay, deep, But
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: check this out, National Institute of Health. A report out
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: by them that increased risk of traffic accidents and subject
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: with latent toxo plasmosis. A retrospective case control study got
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: me and pat are turned it down. Our hearing aids worldwide.
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: Thirty scent of humans worldwide have latent toxoplasmosis. Huh. And
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: they're going to the methods and all that garbage. So
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: Danny bolt but with a weird deal about Danny Bolton
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: who got toxoplasmosis is he already has no inhibitions because
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: he he he teaches off road driving to Special Forces soldiers.
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: So now that dude, it's gonna be a hazard. He's
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: gonna be a hazard to himself and others. Where are
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: your seatbelt? Danny? Um? Another parasite news. Uh, we had
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: a guy right in to remind something about this, and
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: I want this is I'm taking dead serious, is when
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: Yanni and I had trigonosis. Um. We're doing a lot
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: of reading up on how long you it's not very
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: clearly understood how long you remain trick pause. Do you
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: still have your trick pose T shirt? I do. We
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: had these trick pose trick pose T shirts brought up,
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: made up, but then someone pointed out that there's a
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: venereal disease. What's it called. I don't know, there's a
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: trick venereal disease? So we had what we got trick
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: on nosis. We had trick pose shirts made, but then
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: someone could the wrong way. I know. That's why that's
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: second round that's the second. Because it looked like you
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: were announced into the world. People didn't take it the
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: right way. Maybe you should put those trick pose t
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: shirts in the auction house of odys. That's a great idea.
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I have made mine into the rag
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: bin man. No, we should resurrect it. By the way,
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: the sexually transmitted infection is called trickleman. Yeah, so you
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: run around, trick go down to the barn. A trick
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: pose t shirt man sends the wrong mess. But so uh.
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: Someone pointed out, like back then, that was six years ago,
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: be honest, and the literature at the time was unclear
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: about how long I even read in various like government things,
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: how that was unclear how long a human or how
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: long a pig. In fact of the it's like five
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: to ten, right, Yeah, And I was saying that at
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: the ten year mark, I wanted to find someone who
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: was curious about this, and I would happily submit an example.
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: Do you remember the epidemiologist that we had on that
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: we talked to with this about I tell this story
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: all the time because I think it's so funny when
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: you sort of proudly sprouted up in your seat and said, yeah,
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: you know the honest and I have trick on osis.
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: And he's like, really, when did you get it? And
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: we said, and he goes, now it's gone by now,
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: and I just remember your shoulders kind of slump. Yeah,
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: he no longer had trick a nosis. I don't want
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: to get your gut. You think he still would test
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: positive for it? Well, a guy was reminding about how
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: we ought to get serious about checking that out, and
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: Kran was reading up on it, and you can actually
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: there's a you can call the Infectious Disease hot line
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: at the c d C correct and you could submit
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: a biopsy and they'll run your test. So what I
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: want to do is get however you do that, we
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: could take him right here and mail them in to
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: see what happens. It's like a little hole punch. Oh
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: you gotta take a chunk of meat that they're saying
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: you can send you in. My am, I right, I'd
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: like to see that. I would love to do it.
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: The bear that gave us trick nosis when when we
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: when we went through the c d C because it's
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: a CDC reportable disease and they took some of our
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: bear meat. Uh five, I remember calculating it out to
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: five hundred thousands cis per pound, incredible because it was
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: hundreds per gram. Yeah, it was like eight hundred per
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: gram muscle tissue, five hundred thousand cysts has chickenhosi has
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: not got a little bit of a bad rap because
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: I think most people think they think it's worse than
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: it is. That's right, Like they think that if you
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: get it, you're I mean, it's just gonna like toast
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: your whole life. But I mean it's it's like you said,
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: you just kind of felt sick for a few days
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: and that was it, and then you would have got
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: over it and never even known you had it in
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: your natural over it. What happens of the time with
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: ricken nosis infections is it because you don't know. Nobody
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: cuts two and two together. If I didn't, if I
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: hadn't had if we hadn't been in communication, because we
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: worked together, and four of us hadn't gotten it, and
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: we hadn't been together in a month, and we all
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: got weirdly sick on the same day, and my brother
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: didn't drink beer. With the state epidemiologists in Alaska, we
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: wouldn't know that it happened that bad after all, had
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: a little light bulbit went off in her. Uh, inhibits No,
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: I would love to send it in. I think that's
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: an inhibitor for people psychologically for eating bear meat. It's
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: the thing, it's the question I get all the time,
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: what about trick? What about trick? And I'm just like, man,
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: it's a non issue. Number one, you'll probably never get it.
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: You'll eat bear meet your whole life and never get
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: it if you just practice general safe handling meat practices.
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: Tricking uses dies instantaneously in the low hundred and forty
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: degrees instantaneously, and so it's like, it's not that big
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: big deal. No, it's not. When I bought one of
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: those stupid pills, but I was too late to take it,
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: and the uh, the what do you call them? At
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: a drug store, the pharmacist she was saying, I'm not
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: telling you what to do here, but I sell you
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: know that that pill is seven dollars for a dog.
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: She says, but I don't know about the dosing all that,
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: but that's a seven dollar dan worming pill and uh.
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: And then she went on to tell me that when
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: she was in the Peace Corps, they were when they
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: were working in equatorial Africa. They would go into a
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: village and they would just d worm everybody, but without
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: even asking questions under the just knowing that everybody they
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: all had worms. So she just they just that was
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: like part of the course. Check your teeth, give your
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: d worming pill. You know, very widespread. Most people don't
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: like you get it. You don't know you had it.
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: So trick isn't like um line at goes in her
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: ground and comes backwards away. It goes away, and then
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: your meat stays infected for some period of time. You
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: carried the cysts for some period of time. Yeah, unless
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: something eats you know, your flesh, and then the process
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: begins again. We need to get a Yeah, we need
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: to get a little core thing that pulls out point
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: two to point five grams the human skeletal muscle tissue.
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: Maybe you should go to that. Well, hey, I'll tell
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: you I know how to like I had on your toe. No,
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: but listen to this. I had ah, I thought I
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: had a war in my hand one time, and this
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: dermatology just like kept freezing it and freezing it and
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: freezing it, and it wouldn't go away, and Eventually she's like,
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: I wonder if that's maybe not a war I still
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: have a little mark from And she took one of
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: those little cores in corded all out of there and
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: sent it to a lab and it was a foreign
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: substance was stuck in my finger, but zero pain. So
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: that that inspired you to maybe do it on your
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: own next time. Yeah, I definitely want to do it.
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: Uh E m T wrote into the interesting thing he
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: was writing, and you know when you like do a
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: joke to your kids and you like eat a bug
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: or a little minto or something like that. This guy,
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: he he's a paramedic and they get a call down
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: to a lake and it's because the guy is choking
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: on a whole live fish. Gets down to a popular
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: fishing area and he arrives on his senior as a
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: man standing next to the roadway and you can visibly
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: see a fish's tail sticking out of his mouth, coughing
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: up a red, frothy blood. Tried to swallow a bluegill.
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: His wife said he had been drinking quite heavily. Tried
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: to impress his kids by swallowing a five inch bluegill
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: in its dorsal spines got stuck in his throat. In
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: the emergency room, he gets to cough and finally hacks
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: up the fish lands on the cop five inch bluegill.
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: I think about that. Not very smart. Wow, at least
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: his kids are super impressed. Though, Yeah, here, this is
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: this is helpful that Tracy's here because this is part
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: of the reason tracys here's uh the book of Chatikit
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: So Chester, Uh, what has been offering to the audience
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: to produce a book of outdoor etiquette? He wanted to
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: do a book a fishing etiquette? Yeah, but I think
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: I think it could be just outdoor recreation. Hunting would
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: be even better. Specialize specialized. That's that's not even that's
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: not even remotely true. I mean me, eater specializes in
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: the greater outdoors. When it comes to a book like
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: a book like that, do not want to specialize? Well here,
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: well then okay, then you got to hear clay out. No,
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: you go first tell me specialized. Hey, I have made
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: I have made a living through niche niche however, we
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: want to say it through niche media. But the Honey
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: magazine would be very specialized. So I just think for
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: for Chester, I know Chester, I've been around Chester. I
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: feel like he's going to be a specialist more than this.
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: This broad market guy. It's just my it's just my interesting.
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: I would say, you're you have potential to maybe be
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: a broad market guy. Thank you, Tracy. I think you're
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: not looking at the right way. Here's here's why the
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: Book of Chatticutt should be broad based. Because if you
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: did Chester's Book of Fishing Etiquette and marketed that book, okay,
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: like if we self published this book, we market the
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: Book of chettict and it's fishing etiquette, and then you're like, oh,
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: then we'll do a whole bunch of more books down
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: the row where it's like Chester Round, this, Chester Round, that,
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: Chester Round, trail hiking, whatever the hell. I feel like
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: if we just did like the Book of Outdoor Chetticutt
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: and it covered all facets of outdoor etiquette, you would
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: sell a shipload more than if it was just Chester's
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: Book of Fishing Etiquette. Maybe not. I think that's inaccurate.
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: I think that's ever. I guess I need to get
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: dialed in on how serious we're actually being. Just might
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: wish it was a joke. DA Pipeline absolutely considered. I
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: brought it to Tracy Chester needs to advocate on his
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: own idea. I would like to just have a chance.
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: I can see the cover of the book. Okay, in
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: in the town I'm from originally in Arkansas, there's an
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: insurance agent that's real well known. He's an old guy,
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: real just inviting looking guy, and there's huge billboards of
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: him all over the town holding his hands out like this,
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: Like he just holds his hands out and he's kind
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: of got an awkward smile, like he's got insurance settlements
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: and welcome to the town. And then it tells his
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: insurance agency. I see a cover with Chester with his
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: hands out like cheiko fish in his hands, just just
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: just like listen to everybody. Everyone thinks this is a joke,
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: but I think that is a lot of people out
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: there that can benefit from it. You go to every trailhead,
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: every boat ramp, every hike in trail people don't know
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: what's going on, and they need something like a little
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: bible that tells him what's going on. And I think
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: it could really be awesome. On the first page, when
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: you're walking your dog and you're going up the hill
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: and your dog, uh, goes to the bathroom and you
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: bag it and you set it alongside the trail. I
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: know you're thinking that you're gonna grab it on the
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: way down, but you won't. Won't. A lot of people don't.
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: It'll live there in a bag on the side of
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: the trail. That's the most infuriating thing. Put that in
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: that damn book. I will let me just paint a
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: picture for this area really quick. So imagine you're floating
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: down one of the popular rivers in Montana. It's July,
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: it's five degrees, beautiful day, and it's a Saturday. We
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: got tubers floating down the river. We have recreational rafters,
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: we have fishing guides, and if for people that don't know,
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: you put in at a fishing boat ramp, you'll float
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: downstream and you'll take out at another boat ramp. That
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: could be five miles, that could be ten miles, doesn't matter.
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: So you're floating down the river having a great time,
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: and you pull up to the boat ramp and there
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: is a line of about six angry fishing guides waiting
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: at the boat ramp, and a bunch of tubers with
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: their cooler sitting out and beer cans and whatnot, and
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: everyone's upset. What do you think the problem is, Steve,
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: people are blocking the ramp, yes, so, and people are
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: pulling up to the ramp not prepared to do what
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: they need to do their getting there, pulling up and
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: then preparing. Yeah, so people really know what that means.
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: They're like, what, well, there's a loading and off floating
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: area at these fishing access points, so you should be
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: way a ways. I think you should just call them.
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: They're not necessarily fishing access points, right, they're just boat ramps.
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: They're just public access yes, right, boat ramps. He's trying
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: to get like an editor gig on this book. I
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: think anyways, you you load your boat up, you take
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: your boat. It's important because it's not like anybody has
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: more right to be there than anybody else. A fishing
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: guides on any more right to be there, because it's
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: not like a fishing boat ramp, and the tubers are like,
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: but if you won't go on next, it says fishing
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: access site. That's you pays for it. Fishermen pay for it,
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: not that it's just for the book. Can't be hierarchical, yes,
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: it can't be like if you're on a horse, you're
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: more important than a person on foot or whatever. But
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: let me finish really quick. I'll sum it up. So
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: you you load your boat up and there's a line
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: of people waiting. You pulling behind that line, get your
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: life jackets ready to get your kids in the boat,
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: get your cooler all set, get your plugs in, and
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: then you wait in line and everyone takes their turn
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: unloading and off loading. And you know, people just don't
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: know that, so little little bit a little bit. And
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: as we discussed lots of little things. When it was
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: a horse coming down the trail, what is proper etiquette
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: exactly when you have a backpack on when you have
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: a dog, you go down the trail, get off the trail,
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: but go downhill instead of uphill so you don't spook
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: the horses. Wait for him to go by. Yeah, Or
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: like when you walk into your duck hunting spot in
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: the morning and someone's there, what do you do? I like,
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: I like the ideation. I like the idea I think
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: would sell. But six years from now, ten years from now,
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: you still have six angry guides at that boat landing,
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: of course, and I just existential stuff into this, like
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: what does it really matter? I don't know. Book of
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: Outdoor Chetickotte. That might be a little long. We'll figure
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: it out, pat it might it might drop it down
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: to just four or five. What do you think, Tracey
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: canna green light this thing or not? Absolutely? Chester, you
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: don't need to wait. You don't need to go through
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: the normal process. You absolutely need to go through the
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: normal process. We make no exceptions. I'm I'm compiling some stuff.
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: Great news. Nobody think you just did a lot for yourself. Buddy,
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: Are you gonna have guest riders? I'd like to ride. Definitely.
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: I don't want to give away all my ideas here
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: because I've got some good ones, but definitely some some help.
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: You could do the horse or mule on a trail.
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: Absolutely get out of the way and don't and don't
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: forget me, because I'm sure I'll have some ideas perfect
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: ice fishing etiquette. And you've got just a regular employment agreement.
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: You're on contract over here. I mean, I'm assuming just
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: regular employment agreement. It really ended talking about employment agreements
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: on the show. Well, I don't want people having good
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: ideas and running off and doing them on their own. Um,
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: I'm not gonna agree over I don't like I don't
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: like this. Okay, Yanni's good, yis It's time for Yanni's
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: book report on play the tune, Play play the Yanni's
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: book report promo report. He's gonna do a book report
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: on an article which is the best kind of book
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: report and it is a exploration of animals and pt
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: s D. Yeah. But what what this book report is
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: gonna turn into is that I was gonna be discussion
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: about how some journalists and reporters treat wildlife topics um
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: and how they're like anti hunting bias shows through. But
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: the basic just this article which you can find on
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: Noble magazine. It's Noble magazine. But they're they're they're covering
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: are going. Um. Everybody knows the classic snowshoe hair and
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: uh links cycle that we talked about, right, Links populations
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: go up, snowshoe hair populations go down, and they sort
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: of follow each other. And for a long time, everybody
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: just thought that it was just based upon more predators
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: eat more rabbits hairs than they go down, and because
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: there's not enough food for the for the links to eat,
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: than their population crashes. Less predators the hair population goes
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: back up. Well, now they're doing some research and figuring
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: out that it's not quite that simple that there's this
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: basically PTSD in these animals is causing like just a
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: more nuanced version of the cycle where because and when
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: there's a high predator population, the prey not only are
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: they getting eaten a bunch, but they're so stressed out
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: and they're like living and hiding so much that the
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: females are producing fewer and lesser young So that in
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: itself is sort of increasing, you know, right, the lack
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: of um of the prey population and causing it to
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: go down. And so they're studying all this. Um, let
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: me own is a good minute for me to interject
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: something anytime. Um. A researcher in Fairbanks did some work
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: on snowshoe hair links cycles and they pointed to, you know,
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: plant toxicity. So willows being a primary food source, uh,
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: plants respond to grazing by increasing their toxicity. So they
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: had done a bunch of research about you have low
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: hair numbers and plants aren't putting as much willow doesn't
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: put as much energy. You ever bite a willow limb
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: that like that taste? They don't put as much energy
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: into producing it because it's not being heavily grazed, and
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: they put more energy into growth. Um. The low toxicity
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: allows snowshoe hairs to start consuming more willow. They consume more,
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: they have bigger broods, they become numerous, willow starts cranking
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: out shiploads of plant toxicity. It becomes a toxic food source.
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: That's what he says. That's part of why I felt
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: this was inexpertly reported. Well, I think it just points
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: to that it's like it's a there's it's more nuanced
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: than they thought it was, right, which is a great
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: thing about science where constantly you know, learning more and
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: more about it. But here's where it gets a little
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: like tricky. And what I didn't like so much about
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: the article is that they started talking about some elephants,
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: and they said that elephants were decreasing in numbers in
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: certain parts of Africa, and that it was basically due
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: to culling, um, habitat loss and and um poaching. Right then,
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: the next sentence, the writer said that a lot of
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: the young elephants had watched their family members being slaughtered. Right. Well,
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: that word is you can use it in a butchering sense.
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: He slaughter animals at like a butcher house. Or it's
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: like to slay or a massacre or to demolish completely
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: right those three things. Sure, poaching is a pretty bad deal,
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: but legal calling um is not that you know, it
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: is what it is, right, and habitat loss is certainly
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: not slaughtering. So that got my blood pressure up a
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: little bit. Um. The other thing I didn't like so
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: much is that they have a Are you looking at
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: the article now, Steve, Yeah, I'm skimming through and I'm
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: looking at the illustrations reviewed. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. The
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: last thing effected trauma, Clay. You can see this too.
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: It shows basically what's going on on in the brain
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: right as there's some trauma, and then there's like a
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: little flow chart that goes down and shows like how
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: much um uh oh yeah, the neurogenesis, what happens, and
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: then how much you forget like kind of correlates to
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: how bad the trauma was, right, and it sort of
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: shows down that like, the more there is trauma, the
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: more the animals remember this, and then you know, the
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: less they're feeding and the less healthy they are, and
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: in the end there's less offspring, right, Well, the their
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: versions of trauma are startling, sudden, sound like thunder, and
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: then the next two versions are a hunter and a
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: kneeling position. He's not really quite doing it right because
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: he don't have his elbow on his knee. He's just
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: another thing, right, How when did we become super predators?
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: Is that a thing? Are we like no longer the
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: equivalent of lions and alligators and now we're super predators?
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: Him missing the deer is him missing the deer is
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: more trauma than the lightning. But then when he hits
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: this hear in the ass, which again you just like
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: portray hunters, just like it's terrible right that that is
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: their version of like the fear plus physical trauma, where
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: I mean they could have chosen to have a lion
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: or a mountain lion jumping on this uh what looks
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: to be a mule deer doze back, but instead they
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: chose to use a super predator shooting and hitting her
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: in the rear. End um that that caused a whole
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: bunch of trauma, a little bit of offspring. But just
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: like we talked about the hairs and like your willows,
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: what is cool is at the end, they're showing that like,
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: fewer offspring produces also not only less prey, but more
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: abundant vegetation um, thus allowing the population to have ventually
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: rebound uh, you know significantly. Do they get into in here,
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: do humans who suffer PTSD have lower reproductive rates? Well,
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: that's another thing they didn't get into. They start this
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: article is a tough one to do a book report
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: on because they start they start, you know, comparing this
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: PTSD and animals to human PTSD, and the sort of
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: the question is like, is it just is PTSD just
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: a human thing or can it be for animals too,
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: because you can't really ask the deer, hey, are you
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: how you feeling? You know, since Steve shot you in
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: the button you ran up um. And some people say, look,
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: it's just it's totally a human thing because you know,
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: we can talk about it and it's in your head
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: and it's it's not an animals but whatever. People are
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: going to continue researching and go on. But yeah, there's
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: a lot of things that they say are the outcome
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: in animals from this PTSD, but they never relate that
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: to the human likewise, and human Yeah, yeah, I was
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: kind of lying us that I read it, I skimmed it.
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: Did they get into dread? You know, like one of
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: the arguments I've heard from World War two dread that
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: were dread r E A D. They did not in
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: World War two. Um, after after the battles of Anzio,
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: this guy did some things, a doctor, it's really cool,
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: research into the wounded, the wounded men, and he found
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: that a lot of things they thought were pain while
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: they were riding around so much and screaming and hollering,
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: a lot they thought was physical pain they were um expressing.
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: And they found in some cases, many cases that just
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: by ministering a sleeping and drug making them sleep, they
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: quiet down and they get better, you know, they start
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: relaxing a little bit, and they started to realize a
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: lot of stuff that we think is pain is actually dread.
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: These guys knew what was happening, that that with their
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: leg gone, with any number of body parts missing, part
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: of their head missing, what they had to look forward
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: to the rest of their life and just just driving
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: them nuts. And that was agonizing. And then then this
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: doctor was saying, Chris, some people would argue today, you know,
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: eighty years later that that maybe animals had that capacity
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: to some degree, that to look forward with dread. And
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: that's the thing I've often wondered myself, But I think
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: I have a hard time believing a white tailed deer
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: with life expectancy in the wild of you know, even
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: even in an unhunted population of ten years, that they
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: could possibly have developed the kind of emotions and forward
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: looking things that we humans are capable of. So that's
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: what I when I hear a PTSD, I think, jeez,
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: I don't know, I can see it, because you know,
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: because there are there are things like in the in
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: the breeding world with the deer deer breeding world, the
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: deer farms, they do find that by put a fence
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: up with black backing so they can't see in the
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: outside world, so a coyote coming along the edge of
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: the fence line won't bothered them on the inside. That
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: they can generate bigger antlers when they reduced that stress
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: from the outside world. That that that researcher from University Wylming,
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: Kevin Monteth, remember that episode we had Landscape of Fear.
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: But he kind of like he he debunked that a
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: little bit. Was the idea that by bringing wolves into
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: the Yellowstone ecosystem, that you were creating a landscape of
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: fear kind of resimber with the top bother that you
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: were like inducing PTSD on this whole population of elk
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: and and behavioral changes and did he was he into that?
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: And I can't remember what the hell he said about that.
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: We even named the episode after the landscape of fear,
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: Like what that like inducing that amount of stress of elk?
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: Just watching like elk after Elk, after Elk, after elk
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: get killed, like after wolf, I mean, after wolves came
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: to Yelstone. You had elk herds declined by it's enormous
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: amount of death to behold. Wouldn't wouldn't that, though, be
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: a natural process of an animal adapting to predation That
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: would actually make them stronger, more able to survive. So
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: so I mean just no, But they're saying that's what
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: they're saying, that PTSD is natural and then it makes
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: a hyper village vigilant animal and those that it's it's
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: a good thing. It allows the species to continue on
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: because if you don't become hyper vigilant, then you end
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: up being holes. I was gonna say, grow up in
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: Pennsylvania where you they have like the highest hunter density
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: per capita out of any other state. Um, they're getting
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: shot at all the time. They have super high and
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: I most years does seem to have twins. I've seen
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: dose with up to five fonts and many times triplets.
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: Like I don't know. I would think those deer were
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: would have a high high amount of stress with the
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: amount of people out there shooting at him stuff. But
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: they're still pumping out pons. Hefflefinger quoted Stephen Gould, Um,
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: what does it remember? He's like, there's there's a lot
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: of stories that are just so stories where you think
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: there's like a thing going on, but there's actually not
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: and it's just a it's a just cell story. Alright,
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: Clay hit Us on the Old this is my favorite
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: news article to come out in six months. Have you
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: done have you looked at this? Oh? Yeah, man here
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: saying things that will happen, and like a lot of
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: people all texted to me and many people text to
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: it's fascinating man. Well, So in the White Sands National
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: Park in New Mexico, they found some new footprints. So
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: White Sands has the largest number of fossil lives human
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: footprints in North America prior to this. So it's known
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: that there are places where you can go see all
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: these human footprints, and they're on this ancient lake oh
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: tero O t e r O. And basically, in twenty
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: nineteen they decided to do some excavation over the top
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: of for whatever reason, they chose a site and they
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: excavated down deeper than they ever had and they found
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: this series of human footprints that are just beautiful human footprints,
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: and they believe them to be uh, teenagers and adolescent kids.
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: And so to give a broad overview of the story,
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: and then I'd like to dive in and and kind
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: of tell the significance of this finde. So we covered, uh,
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: we covered another White Sands foot they called ghost prints, right,
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: I hadn't heard that. We covered another set of footprints
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: came out of the White Sands where a woman they
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: believe was a woman based on the configuration the footprint,
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: was carrying a child her foot. When she had the
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: child on her hip, her I think herd like right
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: foot would go in deeper now and then she'd set
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: the child down the childhood walk aways she'd pick it
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: back up. She came back later down the same path
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: without the child, and in the time between when she
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: went and came back, a giant ground sloth had crossed
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: her trail. Wow. Incredible. So so these footprints pre date
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: her print by a lot. Yeah, And so basically they
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: it was two years ago that they discovered these prints.
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: Just in the last in September, they released their studies
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: of what they believed. And so the way that they
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: date these as they find these layers and inside these
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: layers of sediment and some of its Fossili's rock, but
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: apparently there's there's some where they were able to take
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: grass seeds from that same layer and carbon date those
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: grass seeds and basically that's how they understand the age
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: of these footprints. And so these footprints are believed to
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: be twenty one to twenty three thousand years old, which
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: now has become the oldest known huge evidence of humans
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: in North America to date. And there's a there's a
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: bunch and this is it like full academic consensus, because
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: you remember when they found that site in Chili and
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: the Monta Verda and they're like, this is the oldest
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: known side of human habitation in the New World, Okay,
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: And they everybody went down Like David Meltzer went down there.
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: All the anthropologists went down there, highly skeptical. They went down,
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: they did a site survey, and they came away and said, yes,
• 50:53
  Speaker 1: it just became like it became is established of a fact?
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: Is can happen? Man. That's what I'm learning with some
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: of the study I'm doing right now for some burglary stuff,
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: is how this archaeological these archaeological finds take sometimes decades
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: before it becomes consensus. Actually emailed David Meltzer about footprints,
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: and he he said, if they are what they say
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: they are, this is a very very significant find. But
• 51:21
  Speaker 1: there still is a question of if. But there's also
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: in all the articles out of whack the idea that
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: humans had to come down during these specific interglacial periods,
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: and so there's still some stuff to come. But they
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: it's pretty legit because there's other really legit archaeological people
• 51:40
  Speaker 1: that are deads you know, are saying they're putting their
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: stamp on it, saying this is for real. Um So
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: two years two years ago they discovered these, um they
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: they started knowing they found footprints and white sands like
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: eighty years ago. Uh, there's there's a whole series of
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: these footprints. There's footprints of a of a human stalk
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: what they presumed was stalking the ground sloth. Like there's
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: a ground sloth footprints with human footprints inside of them,
• 52:12
  Speaker 1: or was at least following the path of a ground sloth. Um.
• 52:16
  Speaker 1: So here here's this is what helped me understand it.
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: And Steve, tell me if you followed this line. But
• 52:21
  Speaker 1: prior to nineteen seven, they thought that humans arrived in
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: North America like two to three thousand years ago. This
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: was prior to so that was like in the nineteen twenties,
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: le's and a hundred years ago they thought Native Americans,
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: indigenous people have only been here for like three thousand years,
• 52:37
  Speaker 1: and there was there is talk that that was a
• 52:40
  Speaker 1: mentality that was propagated to kind of justify manifest destiny,
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: you know, yeah, okay. And then in nineteen seven is
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: when the Fulsome site in New Mexico became stamp to
• 53:00
  Speaker 1: buy the archaeological world as legit. And that Fulsom site
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: in New Mexico, I mean, we can talk about that
• 53:05
  Speaker 1: for forever. But stone spear points stuck inside of an
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: ice age species, and you couldn't argue with it, and
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: so they dated that back to ten thousand years. So
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: all of us n it was like, holy cow, humans
• 53:22
  Speaker 1: were here when it was a bison and tick with
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: skull or a bison tick was kill site. They found
• 53:28
  Speaker 1: these stone points they now call them fulsome points, but
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: that rewrote history that they've been here ten thousand years.
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: But what's interesting, Chase either man, they corralled them into
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: a box canyon and them all on the head of
• 53:39
  Speaker 1: the canyon. Yeah, yeah, so they they what's wild though,
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: is that there were multiple other sites that had bison
• 53:47
  Speaker 1: antick with bones with human artifacts inside of it that
• 53:51
  Speaker 1: were not legitimate because they didn't they mishandled them. There
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: were two other sites during that time period, so that
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: that shows you the archaeological world, like they found probably
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: legitimate sites in Texas, Oklahoma, and Nebraska during the same
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: same time period, and we're not legitimized box. Some dude
• 54:07
  Speaker 1: picks up the point and throws into his pocket. He
• 54:09
  Speaker 1: takes you know, it takes a picture of exactly okay,
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: and then can take take some advice from Taylor Keen
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: maybe yeah, yeah, so ven we believe we've been here
• 54:23
  Speaker 1: ten thousand years in the nineteen thirties is when they
• 54:25
  Speaker 1: found the Clovis site, which is in Clovis, New Mexico,
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: is a similar situation. They found this whatever they water
• 54:33
  Speaker 1: draw you've been to, that type wouldn't hadn't been there.
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: And Clovis dated human arrival in the America's back to
• 54:40
  Speaker 1: around thirteen thousand years. That's what I read, is that
• 54:43
  Speaker 1: what you would have said, I've heard man, it was
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: a man with kill site, So eleven to thirteen thousand
• 54:48
  Speaker 1: years Okay. Stepping it back monte Verde in Chile, which
• 54:53
  Speaker 1: was is wild because if if well, that site basically
• 54:59
  Speaker 1: date human arrival into this part of the New World
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: quote unquote to fourteen point five thousand years ago. So
• 55:07
  Speaker 1: that's monte Verde. You only make a sandwich down there.
• 55:10
  Speaker 1: It's like rolls beef sandwich with French cut green beans
• 55:12
  Speaker 1: on it. Holy sh it, is that good man? They
• 55:14
  Speaker 1: call it in Chile or they call it no I
• 55:17
  Speaker 1: had it down there. Um, I could think yesterday about
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: making some of those which is monte Verde. They they
• 55:23
  Speaker 1: ain't they ate ancient potatoes and seafood they found and
• 55:27
  Speaker 1: they had they had, they had rawhide and made out
• 55:30
  Speaker 1: of massidin leather, tighter out of tent steak, didn't they? Yeah,
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: I think, okay, so I'm walking us back. So now
• 55:36
  Speaker 1: we're back to fourteen point five thousand years So in
• 55:39
  Speaker 1: tw seventeen they came out with this with a with
• 55:42
  Speaker 1: a I A. They released stuff on Cooper's Ferry on
• 55:47
  Speaker 1: the Salmon River in Idaho, which dated human arrival in
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: the America's back to sixteen thousand years ago, which that
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: would have been a water and that you know, you
• 55:57
  Speaker 1: could have a whole podcast on this, Steve, but we're
• 55:59
  Speaker 1: going back to the white hands thing. But the Cooper,
• 56:02
  Speaker 1: the Cooper's Ferry site and on the Salmon River in
• 56:05
  Speaker 1: Idaho indicated a water travel arrival because they basically would
• 56:10
  Speaker 1: have come from you know, Camp Chak in Japan and
• 56:13
  Speaker 1: all over there, come around the coast and then basically
• 56:18
  Speaker 1: past Steve's cabin, took a laught on the Colombian River,
• 56:21
  Speaker 1: up the Calambian River, up the Snake River. So that's
• 56:24
  Speaker 1: why um and and so so this these these footprints,
• 56:35
  Speaker 1: if they're they say they're twenty one to twenty three
• 56:37
  Speaker 1: thousand years old, basically date back human arrival and an
• 56:41
  Speaker 1: additional five thousand years. And here's the crazy thing about Like,
• 56:45
  Speaker 1: here's the crazy thing about it is in Uh, it's
• 56:48
  Speaker 1: not the oldest place. Like what are the chances they
• 56:50
  Speaker 1: found the footprints of the oldest What that's like the
• 56:55
  Speaker 1: first person there's all the junk you'll never find. Yeah,
• 57:01
  Speaker 1: I was at I was just the oldest they've found
• 57:05
  Speaker 1: was at the Fulsom site. And I don't want to
• 57:07
  Speaker 1: go into a tangent. Just this week in New Mexico,
• 57:11
  Speaker 1: the Fulsome dig site is probably fifty feet by fifty feet.
• 57:17
  Speaker 1: I'm sitting there with a guy and I said, why
• 57:19
  Speaker 1: how do we not know that there's another bison kill
• 57:22
  Speaker 1: and a whole village like right there? And they go,
• 57:26
  Speaker 1: we don't know. I mean when I was in that
• 57:30
  Speaker 1: it's was it wild Horse Royal? Yes, yeah, I was
• 57:32
  Speaker 1: standing there in the royal mood a little bit and
• 57:35
  Speaker 1: I'm standing there with the archaeologist and there's a bone
• 57:38
  Speaker 1: sticking out of that bank. I wanted to pull that
• 57:41
  Speaker 1: bone so bad. Man, that dude like that was no way.
• 57:45
  Speaker 1: He took a point, he took a GPS cord on
• 57:47
  Speaker 1: and took photographs, and I was like, let's just think,
• 57:49
  Speaker 1: get out of here. I was not gonna pull that
• 57:52
  Speaker 1: bone out of that bank. Oh I would have ripped
• 57:54
  Speaker 1: that thing out of there if you look the other direction.
• 57:57
  Speaker 1: I was just killing me that you couldn't. You couldn't. Yeah,
• 58:00
  Speaker 1: Steve stopped me. If I'm going too long here, but
• 58:02
  Speaker 1: there there now, So so that dates is back to
• 58:06
  Speaker 1: twenty one thousand years or twenty three thousand years. But
• 58:10
  Speaker 1: away now that there and this is all news to me.
• 58:12
  Speaker 1: These are things I'm learning and you probably know more
• 58:15
  Speaker 1: about when you knew about it well, but away now
• 58:19
  Speaker 1: that they're trying to understand how long we've been here.
• 58:24
  Speaker 1: It's based on genetics of indigenous people. So I've got
• 58:28
  Speaker 1: a quote here. Genetics now calculate based on mutation rates
• 58:32
  Speaker 1: and human DNA that the ancestors of the Native Americans
• 58:35
  Speaker 1: parted from their Ken Than East in the in their
• 58:38
  Speaker 1: East Asian homeland sometime between twenty five thousand and fifteen
• 58:42
  Speaker 1: thousand years ago. Um So basically, so they're able to
• 58:47
  Speaker 1: take the DNA data from indigenous people in North America
• 58:53
  Speaker 1: today and say, well, they left their cousins back in
• 58:58
  Speaker 1: Asia maybe twenty five thousand years ago, and they had
• 59:02
  Speaker 1: to go somewhere and they came this way. So now
• 59:04
  Speaker 1: they're more than just like finding stone points in the ground.
• 59:07
  Speaker 1: They're able to understand. And yeah, they don't know where,
• 59:10
  Speaker 1: you know, they don't know the journey, they don't know
• 59:12
  Speaker 1: what happened, but just like they parted genetic tracks, maybe
• 59:16
  Speaker 1: as far as twenty five years ago. And when you
• 59:18
  Speaker 1: start digging through all this stuff, what's so confusing is
• 59:21
  Speaker 1: that there is a ton of places that are not
• 59:27
  Speaker 1: are not stamped by archaeology, is legit. You know, there's
• 59:30
  Speaker 1: a place in California that they claimed for a while
• 59:33
  Speaker 1: was a hundred and thirty thousand years old evidence, and
• 59:36
  Speaker 1: you know they're pretty much like no um. But there's
• 59:41
  Speaker 1: these ancient sites down in South America, like when we're
• 59:44
  Speaker 1: trying to decide where people came from to get to
• 59:46
  Speaker 1: the New World, you know, I mean you heard Taylor
• 59:50
  Speaker 1: Keene on Burgrease podcasts saying that the Cherokee, the Cherokee cosmology,
• 59:58
  Speaker 1: I think they call it just their stories of how
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 1: their people got here as they came from the South,
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 1: you know, and uh and and so just it's it's
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 1: a convoluted world. And it's why I absolutely love it
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 1: because in a day where we think we know so much,
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 1: we really know so little. We just humans get so
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 1: hyped up about all the stuff they know, but really nothing,
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: we know nothing. On that Bargreas episode. One of the
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 1: more interesting things that you were talking about with the
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 1: Cumberland Gap, as we think of, like coming from a
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 1: Euro American perspective, you think of that you went west
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 1: east the Cumberland Gap, and that you went west on
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 1: the Oregon Trail. But if you look how the Western
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 1: hemisphere was populated the first people to do the Oregon Trail,
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 1: we're probably the other way. Yeah, they're headed east. They
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 1: headed east through the first humans to that gap. Most
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 1: likely other directions came from east to west. Uh. One
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 1: of the biggest things about these tracks that fast states
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 1: because there there there barefoot and maybe if you're not barefoot,
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 1: it doesn't hold up well. But I spent some time
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 1: in Arctic Alaska with some anthropologists and they were talking
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 1: about that one way the time they felt that the
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 1: time human migrations through Siberia and into the Western hemisphere
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 1: um would be that they felt that it had to
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 1: be it had to correlate to the invention of the
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 1: eyed needle that you had to have tailored clothing because
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 1: these people were spending generations in an arctic landscape. Um,
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 1: but then you find like barefooted individuals in these tracks,
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 1: and it's like, do they were did that boots in
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 1: the winter? Do you mean did they prefer to be barefoot?
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 1: Did they? Did they like insulate their feet? That Ozzy
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 1: dude they found in the Italian Alps, he had he
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 1: had some sweet boots made out of three kinds of hides.
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 1: Lowers and souls are made from three different contents. They
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 1: wore boots when they had to. And can I tell
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 1: the story about your daughter and her dream? Okay, So
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 1: my daughter, she's now in her late teen, she's eighteen.
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 1: When she was young, she did not wear shoes, Tracy.
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 1: I'm looking at Tracy because Tracey is a mother. Now. Yes,
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 1: she she did. She just we could hardly make her
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 1: wear shoes, you know. And when you don't wear well,
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 1: I guess, I guess not at all. She And when
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 1: you don't wear shoes, your toast spread out. Shoes make
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 1: your feet narrow. And so the track of a human
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 1: that wears shoes all the time is your toes are
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 1: like this tight together. Those white sands tracks you can
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 1: see air between their toes. You're honest. So okay, I
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 1: was at you honest's house eating dinner with his family
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 1: and his two little girls. I was telling them about
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 1: my daughter and because they kind of reminded me of
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 1: my girls just running around, and I said, my daughter,
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 1: she when she was little, she wouldn't wear shoes and
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 1: her feet looked like an indigenous person with river nukele
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 1: made a foot track on the ground, you'd be able
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 1: to see gaps in her toes. And uh the girls
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 1: just kind of listened to me, and they didn't say
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 1: a thing, like they didn't seem that impressed with my
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 1: story of Rivers Toast. The next day, Yannese uh Or
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 1: messages me and he says, Clay, my daughter woke up
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 1: this will you tell her? You tell him what she said? No,
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 1: I think you're gonna remember better, But I'm said, his
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 1: daughter came in and said, Daddy, I had a dream
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 1: and I and and I was barefoot and you could
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 1: see the ground between my toes. The story in factors
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 1: so much that she's out there dreaming about having feet
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 1: like this. So Jannice messages me the picture and he says,
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 1: look at the gaps between those toes. That's how I
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 1: found out about this was through you, honest. That's good. Um. Yeah,
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 1: Mabel's quite the runner, so she was probably like thinking
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 1: subconsciously as she slept if maybe, you know, wider footprint
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 1: would make her faster. While we were talking about a
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 1: doctor had written into us about removing the guy's leg
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 1: or bones out of his leg and the guy wanting
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 1: the bones to make stuff out of and I think
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 1: he thought that he was fixing to make a truck
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 1: like the shifter knob on his truck. Well, that guy's kid,
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 1: A Purse wrote in, thinking I'm pretty sure that my
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 1: old man is the person you're talking about, and what
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 1: he ended up doing is making a little robot. So yeah,
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 1: it's like a robot paperweight out of his own leg bones.
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 1: So sow's that mystery? Uh? All right? Pat? Like where
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 1: I want to get into all the like the death
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 1: articles you've been writing. Um, do you feel that? Do
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 1: you do you feel that? Have you were you interested
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 1: that when you're young? Or do you feel like it's
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 1: like being in the autumn of your life? Or what
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 1: is it something I love about coming on your podcast?
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 1: I never know what the hell are you gonna ask me? Um? No? Um.
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 1: First of all, I wanted to say that before you
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 1: even touched on that, that I'm not I'm not a
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 1: person who likes horror movies. I don't. I can't watch
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 1: scary movies. They just really do not agree with me.
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 1: So that is not part of my makeup. You know,
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 1: people ask me that quite a bit. But to get
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 1: to your question, UM, I think about that, and I
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 1: trace it back to it does go back to the
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 1: fact I'm sixty five years old now, and I know
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 1: I'm no now I'm in the final season, you know,
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 1: and and um and what what the connection I make?
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 1: Where I realized this is something that's fast to me
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 1: all my life is that my um written about this.
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 1: Media has published at least one of my articles about it.
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 1: That I grew up in the home I grew up in.
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 1: My grandmother, my dad's mother lived with us, and so
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 1: when I as a kid, when I became of an
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 1: age where I could start interacting with her and having
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 1: memories of her, I was about now where she was
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 1: then and what always struck me about hers. She was
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 1: always aware of the fact she was on her final
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 1: final in the final season. And but she was not morbid,
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 1: she was not fatalistic. She was just a matter of
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 1: fact about it. And one of the things that one
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 1: of my memories of that time was we would on
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 1: Sundays after Mass, often not often, but every now and
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 1: then she'd take us to her her future grave site,
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 1: just to show us this is where she'd be. And
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 1: and one of the things that a little kid I
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 1: used to ponder was she'd say, the view from a
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 1: pure is so spectacular. It's west to Madison, looks toward
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 1: mass in Wisconsin. You see the state capital of from
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 1: the distance. And of course my little mind would think,
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 1: but Granny, you're in the ground. You know how you
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 1: can't see you know, you know you'll be able to
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 1: appreciate this scene. It's a good point, man. I remember
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 1: having that little thought for a little periscope. But maybe
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 1: maybe the view wasn't for hers, for the us. That's
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 1: that's true. And and that's another thing. She was a
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 1: kind of person who would think, I think things like
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 1: that besides herself. But she um but she had that
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 1: that awareness. And I always liked the idea that you know,
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 1: a theory never knew it's the final season but are
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 1: you gonna make it to Um Columbus Day, Helloween, Thanksgiving
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 1: or Near's Eve. She didn't know, if she didn't care,
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 1: she just you know, went on with her life. It
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 1: was just kind of a cool thing. Is a little
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 1: kid to have that perspective that I've never forgotten. And
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 1: that the thing a little tangible things that that stick
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 1: with me is she built in this garden. She's a
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 1: gardener to weigh late in life till she got physically
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 1: where she could not move around in their gardens, and
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 1: she was still every time she got a new tool,
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 1: always painted the handle of red, so when when when
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 1: she laid it down, she always find it dinner to
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 1: look around. So to this day, I still have some
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 1: of her tools out in my garage, those red handles,
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 1: and I think, here's a woman, you know, eighty five
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 1: years old at some point, these little claw rake things
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 1: that she used in these these holes, the red handle
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 1: thout I still have that. It's kind of cool then. Um.
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 1: But another thing from my youth that I remember was, UM,
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 1: I was always when I was seven years old when
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 1: Kennedy was killed John Kennedy or President Kennedy, And how
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 1: old seven I was in second grade when when the
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 1: teacher came in and told us I was done in
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 1: art class. So I have a real every memory of um,
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 1: John John Kennedy's death and one of the things that
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 1: struck me going home was, you know, like they left school,
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 1: so it's kind of like, hey, cool, we've got to
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 1: go home. Then you get home and everyone's crying. My
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 1: dad's crying and my my mom's crying and I and
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 1: I am really hit me that God, I don't never
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 1: see my dad cried before. This is fascinating ship. And
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 1: but I still couldn't. I couldn't understand what was what
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 1: the big deal was. Man, knew it was a death,
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 1: but I still don't really comprehend it. And then as
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 1: I got older, I started reading these. Um I used
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 1: to love reading biographies, and I said, I still do.
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 1: And I read these biographies when I was like in
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 1: middle school. There's still a little more adult now. UM.
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 1: And I've reading about John Kennedy and one of the
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 1: things he was haunted by was people dying in their
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 1: prime and even before they're prying himself that he was
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 1: really something that really um lived in him, that he
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 1: I'm really worried about it. And thought about a lot.
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 1: And now I think it's probably because he was in
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 1: War War two. He fought in the p T boats
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 1: up in the Pacific and had life and death experiences.
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 1: People died in his boat when they Jeffanese trayer cutting
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 1: the cutting in a half, which when I was a kid,
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 1: these great war stories that you knew. Every kid my
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 1: age knew that the Gihnt Kennedy and pt one on
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 1: nine story. So anyway, the thing that only struck struck
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 1: me with me all these years later is that when
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 1: he was in the White House, Um he became aware
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 1: of this. This poet named Alan Seeger, He was a
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 1: Harvard graduate like in nineteen ten, and Allen Seeger um
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 1: wrote this poem, I should I should back up a
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 1: little bit. Allan Seeger when he came in to college,
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 1: Um he was, I said, nineteen ten. Yeah, any Um,
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 1: when World War One started, he thought it was immoral
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 1: that our country, the US, wasn't over helping France. And
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 1: he was so taken by that and thought was so
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 1: immoral that our country wasn't helping France that he joined
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 1: the French Foreign Legion and he wanted to join the
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 1: regular French army, but he but he couldn't because he
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 1: wasn't wasn't from France, so he joined the French Foreign Legion.
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 1: Well he when he was at war then in like
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 1: in nineteen fourteen, fifteen and sixteen, he started writing war poems,
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 1: and Kennedy so much loved this one poem called I
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 1: Have a Rendezvous with Death, and he loved it so
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 1: much that he made his didn't make He asked his
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 1: wife Jacqueline, if she would memorize the entire poem. And
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 1: it's about as long as I mean, well, I can
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 1: show you real quick to see you have an idea.
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 1: It's like that long. Um. He had her memorize it,
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 1: and then every now and then he'd had that get
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 1: that mood mood come over him, and he'd asked his
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 1: wife to recite it for him, and she memorized it,
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 1: and she recite it for him, and and just a
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 1: real haunting poem that you know, stuck with this guy.
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 1: And the final four lines go something like, UM of
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 1: a rendezvous with Death at midnight in some flaming town
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 1: when spring trips north again next year to I my
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 1: pledge word am true. I will not fail that rendezvous.
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 1: So this guy knew, he had a really good feeling
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 1: he's not die in that war, and sure enough, when
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 1: he was twenty eight years old nineteen sixteen, gets killed
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 1: in this battle over in France. Yeah. And and then
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 1: another fascinating about Allen Seeger. If you know your music,
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 1: nineteen fifties, Peter Seeger, Pete Seeger, Walt these famous songs
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 1: that to this day we still sing, like if I
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 1: had a hammer, um line a year land as line
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 1: as my land. That was Peter Seeger was his nephew,
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 1: Allen Seeger's nephew. And this is but I know what
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 1: you're talking about. Yeah, So that's those those two stories
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 1: I think always um resonated with me and and I
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 1: always saw it later in life and became a newspaper
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 1: reporter in ashcoh, Wisconsin, back in the nineteen eighties. I
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 1: always I wanted to be an outdoor writer, and that's
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 1: where what I became. But looking back at times when
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 1: I thought, you know, like, I think it's probably have
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 1: been a pretty good crime crime and police reporter. Because
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 1: I I was looking back gotten I was an old guy.
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 1: I think I could picture myself being that reporter. Froho
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 1: the cops got to know and trust and say, hey,
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 1: come over here, this is you gotta you gotta work
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 1: on this one because I find it fascinating. Is it
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 1: true that I think it is? Uh JFK's girlfriend died
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 1: in your prime? Yeah? Well yeah, um tell everybody about
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 1: how you almost weren't a person. Oh yeah, yeah, that's
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 1: not great. Nice? Great? Straight My grandmother brush with death,
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 1: yeah before I was even a twinkle. Yeah, and turned
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 1: my hair and ate up on this one. Listen to this.
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 1: It's harrowing. Pause. We came into having no Pat Durkin
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 1: nip and tuck. Let me before you tell this one.
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 1: I want to remind you of uh, we had a
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 1: thing UH used to right obituaries. Yeah, remember you you
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 1: wrote a collection. Pat wrote a piece about hunters obituaries
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 1: like he collected. You wrote a piece about this right,
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 1: how the way hunters are remembered, And you found an
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 1: obituary of a hunter that said, like the guy died
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 1: at hunting camp but and then it ends with but
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 1: otherwise it was a successful I think I was one
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 1: of the first pieces we like shared, so we passed
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 1: around that obituary piece was great. So those kind of
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 1: stories do do stick with you? Yeah, um yeah, the
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 1: story about how I didn't almost I hear today, Um
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 1: in nine, this had been like January nine, So this is, um,
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 1: keep in mind, this is the this is right before
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 1: the depression. Um, my grandmother, the one I just talked about, Um,
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 1: she was pregnant was my came to be my father
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 1: and and nine was also your prohibition. And my my
• 1:14:50
  Speaker 1: dad's father wasn't too keen on the idea of having
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 1: a fourth kid. You know, they were at the time
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 1: of one income family, like everybody was back in and
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 1: he just he was He was a firefighter in Madison, Wisconsin,
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 1: my grandfather, and so he had this idea that they
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 1: really couldn't have a fourth kid. And this is the
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 1: day before this is an era before abortion clinics and
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 1: all the modern madisine and stuff. So he took her
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 1: down Tom in Madison. I think it's on East Washington
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 1: Avenue or maybe West Washington Avenue when these roads heads
• 1:15:22
  Speaker 1: up to the capitol in Madison, Wisconsin. And one of
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 1: the parts I like about the story is that the
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 1: outside of the of the building it said, um, something like, um,
• 1:15:33
  Speaker 1: news stand, some guy's new stand. And but then when
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 1: you get inside and that was just kind of a front.
• 1:15:39
  Speaker 1: Inside was a speakeasy, know when they served drinks. And
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 1: this is uh during the year a prohibition, so there's
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 1: no no drinking allowed. So my my grandfather took my
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 1: grandmother in there and they had a few drinks. And
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 1: then while he was trying to get her basically get
• 1:15:55
  Speaker 1: her not not ship faced drunk, but drunk. And then
• 1:15:59
  Speaker 1: one he had in the right mood, he explained to
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 1: her as thinking that they really shouldn't have had this
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 1: fourth kid, and maybe it's time, you know, by just
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 1: by a matter coincidence here, you know, I'm making this
• 1:16:12
  Speaker 1: this part up. But um, he suggested to her that
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 1: they take a little walk to the back end of
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 1: this building. In the back corner of that building is
• 1:16:19
  Speaker 1: basically a back door, um abortion clinic, and he wants
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 1: her to abort what was my father, Chris, They had
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 1: no idea was my father, but um, they wanted to
• 1:16:29
  Speaker 1: abort the personally, damn right I do. And and my grandmother, Um,
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 1: she's a good German Catholic. You know, that was not
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 1: just not something that she would ever agree to. And
• 1:16:44
  Speaker 1: she basically I don't know if I get she would
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 1: have told him to f off, but she she would
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 1: have probably said something like that and just left and refused.
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 1: And one of the parts of the story I've always
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 1: how did they get passed down to you? Though I
• 1:16:57
  Speaker 1: can tell you that. Let me finish my story and
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 1: I can tell you the story. Um um So then,
• 1:17:05
  Speaker 1: so that was January, and then my dad was born
• 1:17:07
  Speaker 1: in July. My dad, asked, was born in July four.
• 1:17:10
  Speaker 1: You know you always liked the factor in the fourth
• 1:17:11
  Speaker 1: of July, um being Yeah, sometimes sometimes I think it's
• 1:17:16
  Speaker 1: like in August. So it's me like a month old er. So, um,
• 1:17:20
  Speaker 1: granny's house burned down. And she always told the story
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 1: about how I always thought if that, if I had
• 1:17:28
  Speaker 1: a boarded your father, I would have always thought it
• 1:17:31
  Speaker 1: was God punishing me bringing my house stone. Yeah, and
• 1:17:35
  Speaker 1: I and I didn't have the didn't have enough sense
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 1: at the time to ever ask her while she's alive,
• 1:17:42
  Speaker 1: what did you tell yourself? Then? You know what? What?
• 1:17:44
  Speaker 1: What was God punishing you for then to burn your
• 1:17:46
  Speaker 1: house stone? You know that wasn't then because to her
• 1:17:51
  Speaker 1: kind of thinking, that was always kind of that there's
• 1:17:54
  Speaker 1: always retribution with with her and my and my other
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 1: my maternal grandmother the same way. I remember a bunk
• 1:17:59
  Speaker 1: of my head and i'd door one time I was
• 1:18:01
  Speaker 1: like four or five years old, Me like smashed my
• 1:18:02
  Speaker 1: head into a door that was standing open. And as
• 1:18:05
  Speaker 1: I'm standing, the ball in my head off and her
• 1:18:07
  Speaker 1: comfort to me about against her breast, she says, that's
• 1:18:10
  Speaker 1: God punishing you. He must have done something wrong. That's
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 1: where my mother grandmother was to you know, you got
• 1:18:15
  Speaker 1: God's always punishing you for something. But the story how
• 1:18:18
  Speaker 1: I got passed down my dad, My dadd nan gonna
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 1: make this joke in front of all of us that, um, yeah,
• 1:18:24
  Speaker 1: if your grandmother listening to my dad, you guys wouldn't
• 1:18:27
  Speaker 1: be here, and then that he never My dad was
• 1:18:29
  Speaker 1: never a storyteller though, and so I didn't really hear
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 1: the whole story until later when um a cousin of
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 1: my Peggy, who you guys have met on her farm. Yeah,
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 1: she she's kind of the family historian whom his grandy
• 1:18:43
  Speaker 1: was getting older. She'd sit down with her and have
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 1: her um tell a lot of the stories and kind
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 1: of filling all the backgrounds of these stories. Yeah, one
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 1: of my favorites. That seems like such a thing that
• 1:18:52
  Speaker 1: would be slept under the rugs, under the family rug,
• 1:18:54
  Speaker 1: you know what I mean. Yeah, but it wasn't. It was.
• 1:18:57
  Speaker 1: It was pretty common knowledge. I don't know a lot
• 1:18:59
  Speaker 1: of details about that. Didn't know all about this, this
• 1:19:01
  Speaker 1: three tier building where it went from a news stand
• 1:19:05
  Speaker 1: to drinking to a backdoor abortion Clinton And I wonder
• 1:19:08
  Speaker 1: what the fourth section was, just the street. But but yeah,
• 1:19:13
  Speaker 1: it was, it was. It was an interesting thing. But um,
• 1:19:18
  Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't I I always thought that,
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 1: you know, and it wasn't either that. Um. Abortion wasn't
• 1:19:25
  Speaker 1: the topic that came up really a lot in our
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 1: family discussions. I mean I remember my mother, my um,
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 1: my mother, and my grandmother, paternal grandmother discussing it, but
• 1:19:34
  Speaker 1: never in heated terms, never real emotion. Is kind of
• 1:19:37
  Speaker 1: matter of fact that you know, this is one of
• 1:19:39
  Speaker 1: these things that would happen quite often in the old days. Yeah, okay,
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 1: walk everybody through um with Dirk and on death. We're
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 1: going to review a bunch of articles. So walk everybody
• 1:19:51
  Speaker 1: through the one called the Savage Murder of Warden Neil.
• 1:19:56
  Speaker 1: How's he pronounces the Savage Murder of ward Neil? The faith?
• 1:20:02
  Speaker 1: This is if I was gonna tell um, give advice
• 1:20:04
  Speaker 1: to aspiring young journalists, writers, any kind of writer, relay
• 1:20:10
  Speaker 1: the importance of getting out of your damn office and
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 1: going out and doing things and meeting people face to face,
• 1:20:15
  Speaker 1: and that's where your stories A lot of times come
• 1:20:18
  Speaker 1: from his face to face discussions and phone calls and stuff. UM.
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 1: I was duck hunting two years ago, and I've kind
• 1:20:24
  Speaker 1: of forgotten about Neil A. Fave's case because it happened
• 1:20:28
  Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy one when I was maybe have been
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 1: fifteen years old, and I kind of had a vague
• 1:20:33
  Speaker 1: recollection of it. Um. But what I happened to by
• 1:20:35
  Speaker 1: Green Bay, Wisconsin, and I'm from Madison, Wisconsin, was about
• 1:20:39
  Speaker 1: a hundred forty miles to the southwest, so I was
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 1: just kind of vaguely aware of it, and kind I
• 1:20:43
  Speaker 1: had forgotten about it into my adult life. When I
• 1:20:46
  Speaker 1: was duck hunting a couple of years ago, I we
• 1:20:48
  Speaker 1: wrot this um boat landing. After we got done hunting,
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 1: I was reading one of these placards that you often
• 1:20:54
  Speaker 1: see him parks because it's near a piece of advice
• 1:20:56
  Speaker 1: from the old guy. Went stopping reading those historical markers.
• 1:20:59
  Speaker 1: They're fast the things that we just blow past all
• 1:21:02
  Speaker 1: the time. So I was reading this kind of kind
• 1:21:05
  Speaker 1: of came back to me that I kind of I
• 1:21:06
  Speaker 1: can't remember that, but I didn't know there grew some
• 1:21:09
  Speaker 1: terrible details of it. But um the story. I did
• 1:21:13
  Speaker 1: this two part series on about the UM about Neil
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 1: la Faye's murder and Neil la Faye in that era,
• 1:21:20
  Speaker 1: and it's kind of it's all what fade of the
• 1:21:22
  Speaker 1: way now. But in that era, it wasn't uncommon for
• 1:21:25
  Speaker 1: um um biologists wildlife biologist in the Wisconsin din R
• 1:21:31
  Speaker 1: to also carry warden credentials. They get a little extra
• 1:21:34
  Speaker 1: training so they could be law enforcement people. And Neil
• 1:21:37
  Speaker 1: Neil la Faye was one of these guys who was,
• 1:21:39
  Speaker 1: you know, doing the double duty as a wildlife biologist
• 1:21:41
  Speaker 1: and uh in a conservation warden. And apparently he had
• 1:21:46
  Speaker 1: he had run into this this guy a number of
• 1:21:48
  Speaker 1: times over the years. And um one night, UM, one afternoon,
• 1:21:52
  Speaker 1: they think he was out posting the end of this
• 1:21:55
  Speaker 1: wildlife area and heard shooting back in the wildlife area
• 1:21:59
  Speaker 1: a twenty too and I thought that was he probably
• 1:22:02
  Speaker 1: thought that was unusual to be here. In two Roland's
• 1:22:05
  Speaker 1: going off back in a Marshy area, which is duck
• 1:22:07
  Speaker 1: hunting in hunters and all that. People don't shoot shoot
• 1:22:11
  Speaker 1: twenty trees at ducks. It's a shotgun activity. So you
• 1:22:14
  Speaker 1: want to investigate. And they think they think this Neil,
• 1:22:18
  Speaker 1: this Neil la Fave was murdered by a guy named
• 1:22:20
  Speaker 1: Brian who's song who was I think twenty eight years
• 1:22:23
  Speaker 1: old at the time, and he lived called Seth. You
• 1:22:29
  Speaker 1: just look at Seth, try to picture that. Yeah, the
• 1:22:32
  Speaker 1: guy looks nothing like No. No, I actually did not
• 1:22:36
  Speaker 1: look like Um. But apparently they think this Um who
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 1: saw it was back there intentionally trying to lure Um
• 1:22:44
  Speaker 1: the faeve in there because he he has to grudge
• 1:22:47
  Speaker 1: against him because he decided him for shooting a pheasant
• 1:22:50
  Speaker 1: offseason the year before, and they had other confrontations, and
• 1:22:53
  Speaker 1: they think he's just a sick son of a bitch.
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 1: And I was laying for the guy and they when
• 1:23:00
  Speaker 1: a had of my story. But when when Um, when
• 1:23:03
  Speaker 1: LaFave went in there to investigate, then they think her
• 1:23:06
  Speaker 1: song ambushed him, was shot him repeatedly in the face,
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 1: just shot him. Is a brutal close range killed the
• 1:23:14
  Speaker 1: guy and he didn't didn't stud him once and they face.
• 1:23:17
  Speaker 1: He basically unloaded you know, his twenty to smite on
• 1:23:20
  Speaker 1: mac rifle into the guy's face and you assume he
• 1:23:23
  Speaker 1: probably shotim wise fell backward, you know too. And then
• 1:23:27
  Speaker 1: he goes back out of the marsh and his grandmother
• 1:23:30
  Speaker 1: lived on the side of the marsh. And when went
• 1:23:34
  Speaker 1: back there, retrieved the thirty six. His thirty six came
• 1:23:38
  Speaker 1: back into the march of the thirty six, and the
• 1:23:40
  Speaker 1: shovel proceeded to this is grew some stuff. Um. He
• 1:23:43
  Speaker 1: proceeded to blast away at Lafave's neck area until the
• 1:23:48
  Speaker 1: neck area is pretty much just um meat, and then
• 1:23:52
  Speaker 1: sliced off the head, carried the head about sixty I
• 1:23:55
  Speaker 1: think it's like only like sixty seventy ft north of there,
• 1:24:00
  Speaker 1: buried the head face up, then buried it, and then
• 1:24:03
  Speaker 1: buried the body back where he had fallen, or he
• 1:24:06
  Speaker 1: dragged him off low waist I think, to the south
• 1:24:09
  Speaker 1: and then buried him. And the sad poignant parts of
• 1:24:15
  Speaker 1: that story is that, um. Meanwhile, after this had taken
• 1:24:18
  Speaker 1: place that evening, this was Neil la Fave, the warden's
• 1:24:22
  Speaker 1: thirty second birthday. So back home at the right, Oh,
• 1:24:30
  Speaker 1: he's yeah, he's more like the killer, the killer cleanly
• 1:24:39
  Speaker 1: kind of kind of like you know, you don't look
• 1:24:40
  Speaker 1: like him either though. And so back at back at
• 1:24:43
  Speaker 1: Neil la Pace home, his wife and his two I
• 1:24:46
  Speaker 1: think he had two daughters and they're like four years
• 1:24:47
  Speaker 1: old and two years old. We're setting the house up
• 1:24:51
  Speaker 1: for a surprise party for him. So they had guests
• 1:24:53
  Speaker 1: over everything else waiting from to come home. Guy never
• 1:24:55
  Speaker 1: comes home, of course, and when they all find just figured, well,
• 1:25:00
  Speaker 1: you know he's not coming back, muscle, you know, break
• 1:25:03
  Speaker 1: up the party. So um, this Peggy la fave I thought,
• 1:25:09
  Speaker 1: why he's missing, This isn't like him. I bet she
• 1:25:13
  Speaker 1: ran had a running with this Brian Who song because
• 1:25:15
  Speaker 1: it is he. She knew about the guy, and then
• 1:25:17
  Speaker 1: the confrontations they had. So as you went back to
• 1:25:20
  Speaker 1: the wildlife area, found his truck, started looking for him,
• 1:25:23
  Speaker 1: and finally about ten o'clock gave up, summoned um Sheriff's
• 1:25:27
  Speaker 1: department and they started looking for him. That night, they
• 1:25:29
  Speaker 1: got people together, a law for some people started looking
• 1:25:31
  Speaker 1: for him, didn't find him. Some of the guys worked
• 1:25:33
  Speaker 1: searched all night to find them, never to find him.
• 1:25:36
  Speaker 1: That night. Next day they reconvened at dawn started um.
• 1:25:40
  Speaker 1: They basically up a skirmish line. People are a few
• 1:25:43
  Speaker 1: feet apart and start colombing the wildlife, breaking it down,
• 1:25:46
  Speaker 1: gritting it out, just like you would do when you're
• 1:25:49
  Speaker 1: looking for a lost animal when you're hunting. And a
• 1:25:53
  Speaker 1: bowl hunter showed up just to shoot his bowl and
• 1:25:56
  Speaker 1: practice as bowling. I thought what was going on and said,
• 1:25:59
  Speaker 1: you wall, he helps, so he joined instart helping. Well,
• 1:26:02
  Speaker 1: he happened to be the guy that came across a
• 1:26:04
  Speaker 1: freshly beat up area and he likened it to finding
• 1:26:07
  Speaker 1: a fresh scrape at a bucket made. It was kind
• 1:26:10
  Speaker 1: of circular, kind of fresh dirt and things have been
• 1:26:13
  Speaker 1: moved around, and I felt, that's weird. And he started
• 1:26:15
  Speaker 1: scooping into his hands and it's it's this, you know,
• 1:26:17
  Speaker 1: marshy soil, you know, sandy sand, sand based um muskeg
• 1:26:22
  Speaker 1: type stuff. And right away found ran in the belt
• 1:26:25
  Speaker 1: buckle of the phase belt buckle. Realized heck, that's here
• 1:26:30
  Speaker 1: it is, and here he is, and they so they
• 1:26:33
  Speaker 1: all gathered and then they got and they got the
• 1:26:35
  Speaker 1: serious people and there the dirt uncovering the body. While
• 1:26:37
  Speaker 1: I'm as they've worked their way up, they realized the
• 1:26:41
  Speaker 1: head's not there, so they stopped, and then they summoned
• 1:26:44
  Speaker 1: the crime lab for Madison to come up to forensics people,
• 1:26:47
  Speaker 1: and then they didn't arrive till Um, like in the dark,
• 1:26:51
  Speaker 1: resumed all the work and right away that the law
• 1:26:56
  Speaker 1: for some people really went to work and interviewed every
• 1:27:00
  Speaker 1: unter that everyone in that area that they could find,
• 1:27:04
  Speaker 1: and started giving out light taking some assigning people to
• 1:27:08
  Speaker 1: do light detector tests. And of course the only hunter
• 1:27:11
  Speaker 1: they came across that refused to take the test was
• 1:27:13
  Speaker 1: this Brian who saw it. You know, he lugged it
• 1:27:16
  Speaker 1: up right away and was not cooperating at all, and
• 1:27:19
  Speaker 1: they're pretty sure he did it. And what I the
• 1:27:22
  Speaker 1: way I led my article that I did for me
• 1:27:24
  Speaker 1: either about this was I thought it was fascinating that
• 1:27:26
  Speaker 1: the lead prosecutor Um, I can't pronounce the name Zeidmiller
• 1:27:32
  Speaker 1: and don Zeidmiller, I think his name is Um. He
• 1:27:36
  Speaker 1: was a hunter himself and he realized it away, he said,
• 1:27:40
  Speaker 1: he says to me, and he's still he's still around.
• 1:27:42
  Speaker 1: He's actually a circuit judge in green By, Wisconsin, in
• 1:27:45
  Speaker 1: his late seventies now probably close to eighty years old. Now, UM,
• 1:27:49
  Speaker 1: but he remembered it, thinking that, you know, the key
• 1:27:53
  Speaker 1: to this crime, selving this crime and making a conviction
• 1:27:55
  Speaker 1: here is finding that thirty at six. He said that
• 1:28:00
  Speaker 1: twenty two or a half past twenty two, and that's
• 1:28:02
  Speaker 1: probable long prior through it in Green Bay. For all
• 1:28:04
  Speaker 1: you know, never find that gun. But no one's gonna
• 1:28:07
  Speaker 1: throw away a thirty at six year rifle. And so
• 1:28:10
  Speaker 1: he UM. They went to work and they this is
• 1:28:14
  Speaker 1: V one, remember, and this wasn't an era before. This
• 1:28:18
  Speaker 1: is up being the first time Wisconsin got UM wire tap.
• 1:28:25
  Speaker 1: Up until at time, wire taps pre much has been
• 1:28:27
  Speaker 1: been a federal government U S. Attorney General type stuff
• 1:28:30
  Speaker 1: where you you know, like FBI could use it and UM,
• 1:28:33
  Speaker 1: but Wisconsin passed a law just just recently that they
• 1:28:36
  Speaker 1: could UM in in real specific terms, you could use
• 1:28:40
  Speaker 1: a wire tap. So they they set this wire tap up.
• 1:28:44
  Speaker 1: Then on on on Brian whose songs girlfriend, and because
• 1:28:49
  Speaker 1: he didn't really have a place that he lived on
• 1:28:51
  Speaker 1: his own, he lived this girlfriend and eventually UM put
• 1:28:55
  Speaker 1: the pressure to him by getting this wire tap and
• 1:28:58
  Speaker 1: then starting to step a series of UM visiting his grandmother,
• 1:29:03
  Speaker 1: visiting his aunt, all these people I knew he was
• 1:29:05
  Speaker 1: close to and and doing search warrants to smoke him out,
• 1:29:09
  Speaker 1: hoping he would call one of them and let them
• 1:29:12
  Speaker 1: know that, hey, you know, they're up to something. And
• 1:29:15
  Speaker 1: they even put a d n R ward and to
• 1:29:16
  Speaker 1: follow him around and basically pop up everywhere he showed up,
• 1:29:20
  Speaker 1: to pop up make his presence felt, and eventually who
• 1:29:23
  Speaker 1: saw made the mistake where he um He called his
• 1:29:28
  Speaker 1: grandmother and said, don't you know, you know they're they're
• 1:29:31
  Speaker 1: they're doing, they're up to something. Don't let him find
• 1:29:34
  Speaker 1: that gun. Don't let him find that rifle. And she said,
• 1:29:37
  Speaker 1: and they got her on top tape saying you know
• 1:29:39
  Speaker 1: they won't find you won't they won't find your rifle.
• 1:29:42
  Speaker 1: And so then when they had that and they took
• 1:29:44
  Speaker 1: that to a voice identification expert and said, yeah, it's
• 1:29:47
  Speaker 1: definitely his voice. And they then basically you know, when
• 1:29:54
  Speaker 1: they went to the grandmother's, went back to the grandmother,
• 1:29:56
  Speaker 1: played the tape for she. She said, yeah, his aunt
• 1:30:00
  Speaker 1: was here this morning and she she hasn't no, so
• 1:30:02
  Speaker 1: they quick drove over to her place. I think they've
• 1:30:05
  Speaker 1: even brought the grandmother along and said enough enough, you know,
• 1:30:08
  Speaker 1: you know, give us that rifle and she went in
• 1:30:12
  Speaker 1: the back and I think, I think, um, she hadn't
• 1:30:14
  Speaker 1: reburied it yet. It was still like in this plastic case,
• 1:30:18
  Speaker 1: plastic bag. It was still dirty and stuff, but it
• 1:30:21
  Speaker 1: was all taking apart, placed real carefully into this plastic bag.
• 1:30:25
  Speaker 1: So then they did different the blue sticks test on
• 1:30:28
  Speaker 1: that rifle. It's definitely the rifle that blue you know
• 1:30:31
  Speaker 1: Voorden Lafave's you know, neck apart. So and then they
• 1:30:35
  Speaker 1: prostituted them and um and got him. And then so
• 1:30:39
  Speaker 1: that was part one of my piece. Look the crazy
• 1:30:42
  Speaker 1: thing about the savage murder of Warden Neil fail Faive,
• 1:30:47
  Speaker 1: Did I say L five that football player guy Neil
• 1:30:50
  Speaker 1: LaFave is there's a part two. There's a part two.
• 1:30:53
  Speaker 1: In part two, you know, ten years later he escapes
• 1:30:56
  Speaker 1: from prison, big chase, big shootout. Death not over. It's
• 1:31:01
  Speaker 1: more death to come. We're gonna keep talking to Pat here,
• 1:31:06
  Speaker 1: but to find that part two and to find everything
• 1:31:08
  Speaker 1: Pat writes about and Pat writes but all kinds of
• 1:31:10
  Speaker 1: stuff beside people dying, he writes a lot of news items. Uh,
• 1:31:13
  Speaker 1: you just go find him and all of his work
• 1:31:15
  Speaker 1: for us at the Meat Eater Dot com and search
• 1:31:20
  Speaker 1: up pat, You'll just find You'll find him in there.
• 1:31:21
  Speaker 1: He's floating around all over. When you're a journalist and
• 1:31:34
  Speaker 1: you spend your whole life as a journalist or your
• 1:31:35
  Speaker 1: professional life outside of being the Navy, when you go
• 1:31:38
  Speaker 1: to like when you go to dig up and you're
• 1:31:40
  Speaker 1: just reporting on these kind of forgotten stories of wilderness
• 1:31:45
  Speaker 1: murders and mayhem and whatnot. Um, do you feel that
• 1:31:48
  Speaker 1: there's not do do you have an obligation where you
• 1:31:50
  Speaker 1: need to do to contribute original work to it rather
• 1:31:55
  Speaker 1: than just like rehashing crazy to people, like you're rehashing
• 1:31:58
  Speaker 1: crazy ship that happened, but not doing anything right. Yeah, definitely,
• 1:32:02
  Speaker 1: I am. I am. I try not. I mean I
• 1:32:06
  Speaker 1: still do a lot of Google searches and everything I write,
• 1:32:09
  Speaker 1: But I still think there's nothing as good as a
• 1:32:11
  Speaker 1: face to face or a telephone interview. Got you know
• 1:32:14
  Speaker 1: like this Dale Morey Warden that I had talked about
• 1:32:17
  Speaker 1: in the article. Um, the stories like that where a
• 1:32:20
  Speaker 1: man sleeps the pillow a gun under his pillow for
• 1:32:24
  Speaker 1: months and months and months and then find puts the
• 1:32:26
  Speaker 1: gun away when he knows the guy is dead. Those
• 1:32:29
  Speaker 1: are the kind of stories you don't get from Google,
• 1:32:31
  Speaker 1: you know. And and I just you know again, you
• 1:32:34
  Speaker 1: sound like the old fart talking about in the good
• 1:32:36
  Speaker 1: old days and ship. But um, you know the idea
• 1:32:39
  Speaker 1: of making phone calls and driving over knocking on doors,
• 1:32:43
  Speaker 1: that's so crucial to being a good reporter and being
• 1:32:46
  Speaker 1: a good storyteller, a good good, good writer, you know.
• 1:32:48
  Speaker 1: And I I think, But the thing is, I've spent
• 1:32:53
  Speaker 1: most of my career behind the desk doing freaking phone interviews.
• 1:32:57
  Speaker 1: You know. I don't get out from behind my desk enough,
• 1:33:00
  Speaker 1: and every time I do, you're walking you never That's
• 1:33:03
  Speaker 1: the fun thing about what I do for a living.
• 1:33:05
  Speaker 1: And I'm not kidding around this. I get I've gotten
• 1:33:08
  Speaker 1: some my best stories over the years. In the bathroom.
• 1:33:10
  Speaker 1: You walk in the men's room. You've been covering a meeting.
• 1:33:15
  Speaker 1: People are saying it back and forth, and they see
• 1:33:17
  Speaker 1: a stand that the urinal. They walk over next to
• 1:33:19
  Speaker 1: you and say, Dirk, and if you want something on this,
• 1:33:22
  Speaker 1: talk to so and so. Yeah, well you're just standing
• 1:33:25
  Speaker 1: there taking a leak. Yeah, yeah, I don't know what
• 1:33:30
  Speaker 1: it is, but you know, it's just But I don't
• 1:33:33
  Speaker 1: think it's just because it's a men's room. But I
• 1:33:34
  Speaker 1: think part of it is the fact it's it's off
• 1:33:36
  Speaker 1: the beaten path, it's it won't be seen talking to
• 1:33:39
  Speaker 1: you because you know a lot a lot of your
• 1:33:40
  Speaker 1: best sources over the years, and it being people don't
• 1:33:42
  Speaker 1: want to be seen talking to you because I have
• 1:33:46
  Speaker 1: just enough hatred among my fellow hunters in Wisconsin don't
• 1:33:50
  Speaker 1: like me for various things I've written over the years
• 1:33:53
  Speaker 1: where they don't like they want They'll say to me,
• 1:33:55
  Speaker 1: I don't want to be seen with you in this
• 1:33:56
  Speaker 1: in this public meeting, and so they'll they'll call me
• 1:33:59
  Speaker 1: later and talk to me then. So but to get
• 1:34:03
  Speaker 1: there back to your he gets hate mail about about
• 1:34:06
  Speaker 1: covering wildlife politics in Wisconsin, get fired up. It's horrible stuff.
• 1:34:10
  Speaker 1: But but but but that's what's funny about though, is
• 1:34:14
  Speaker 1: that I save all that I don't I don't read
• 1:34:17
  Speaker 1: it over and over again. But um, I save all
• 1:34:20
  Speaker 1: those kind of things fueled by haters patent na the thing.
• 1:34:25
  Speaker 1: But the thing is I phone. One time I got
• 1:34:28
  Speaker 1: a farmer in Salt Dakota a couple of years ago,
• 1:34:31
  Speaker 1: left me and known on my windshield was Matt Me
• 1:34:33
  Speaker 1: because where I had parked and it was in December
• 1:34:35
  Speaker 1: and there were harvesting the corn out there, and this
• 1:34:38
  Speaker 1: guy left me I really, um, we don't want your
• 1:34:41
  Speaker 1: cheese heads out here hunting in Salt Dakota. You're blocking
• 1:34:44
  Speaker 1: the rods over doing this harvesting and you know we're
• 1:34:47
  Speaker 1: feeding the country. You're that's all you're having fun in
• 1:34:49
  Speaker 1: our dear and really touched the nerves. Yeah, and I
• 1:34:52
  Speaker 1: really pissed me off. And he didn't bring him some
• 1:34:54
  Speaker 1: cheese cards and spotted cow after what. I don't know
• 1:34:56
  Speaker 1: who he was. I mean, I saw this big combine
• 1:34:58
  Speaker 1: out there and and they went went out. I didn't
• 1:35:01
  Speaker 1: know it had stopped at my truck, you know. But
• 1:35:03
  Speaker 1: I don't know if you wrote it, wrote it in
• 1:35:04
  Speaker 1: the you know, while I'm still in the field, and
• 1:35:06
  Speaker 1: then left it on the run as he went out
• 1:35:08
  Speaker 1: or what. But but you know, it was kind of
• 1:35:11
  Speaker 1: what I was referring to it. What I found funny
• 1:35:13
  Speaker 1: about myself was that I toward the letter up this
• 1:35:16
  Speaker 1: note of pisted so piste off that you asked whole
• 1:35:18
  Speaker 1: and I chucked into the in of the wind. And
• 1:35:21
  Speaker 1: then I thought and what I got. And then when
• 1:35:23
  Speaker 1: I got home back to Wisconsin, I thought, kind of
• 1:35:26
  Speaker 1: save all that stuff. That's kind of like my little um,
• 1:35:29
  Speaker 1: you know, mentors of my career is you know I
• 1:35:32
  Speaker 1: have I have a big sign in my office at
• 1:35:33
  Speaker 1: home where they had they put my name with the
• 1:35:36
  Speaker 1: ghostbuster um cross across you know, well that was my
• 1:35:42
  Speaker 1: that's from my sports freighter days. I really column one time,
• 1:35:47
  Speaker 1: piste up in the local sports people and they picked
• 1:35:50
  Speaker 1: me when the basketball games years ago. Isn't it funny
• 1:35:52
  Speaker 1: that electronic communications don't have the weight that like I
• 1:35:56
  Speaker 1: still have files. I have files of like early respondence.
• 1:36:00
  Speaker 1: I became I'm friends with you largely because I'm friends
• 1:36:03
  Speaker 1: with Doug drn I became friends with Doug drnks. Dug
• 1:36:05
  Speaker 1: during wrote me a letter mhm he might emailed, I
• 1:36:09
  Speaker 1: can't remember how it was. That kind of that kind
• 1:36:11
  Speaker 1: of like goes against my point, but I have so
• 1:36:14
  Speaker 1: skipped that part. I have files at home of like
• 1:36:16
  Speaker 1: physical correspondence that someone would go through the hassle and
• 1:36:22
  Speaker 1: I would say, and I still have it like all saved,
• 1:36:24
  Speaker 1: and I have like all the notes from my books
• 1:36:26
  Speaker 1: and no all my like kind of records, and then
• 1:36:29
  Speaker 1: you can enter the electronic age. It just ends. I
• 1:36:32
  Speaker 1: don't save any correspondence, none of that stuff. Don't say
• 1:36:36
  Speaker 1: hate mail. Like if you wrote me a hate mail
• 1:36:38
  Speaker 1: in the mail, dude, I would totally put that in
• 1:36:40
  Speaker 1: my files. But I hate male email. Zero thing. Now
• 1:36:45
  Speaker 1: that we work on books through drive Google Drive, I
• 1:36:48
  Speaker 1: don't have any but I have all my old drafts
• 1:36:50
  Speaker 1: of books, all my notes of books. And now it's
• 1:36:53
  Speaker 1: like information is valueless, like that ship. It just has
• 1:36:58
  Speaker 1: no there's no there's the thing that feels like something
• 1:37:03
  Speaker 1: to hold onto with it. But at one time we
• 1:37:05
  Speaker 1: had like a really we have like a death threat.
• 1:37:07
  Speaker 1: I had a threat against me and my kids and
• 1:37:10
  Speaker 1: it was an email. And man, the FBI doesn't look
• 1:37:13
  Speaker 1: at it that way, right, that dude could have written
• 1:37:16
  Speaker 1: it in blood and mailed it to me. Man, he
• 1:37:17
  Speaker 1: went to his garbage. Yeah, they took the email like
• 1:37:21
  Speaker 1: real serious. But I can't take them that seriously. I
• 1:37:23
  Speaker 1: feel like it was too easy for you to send
• 1:37:26
  Speaker 1: me the note. Anybody can send it, stupid ass. No, Yeah,
• 1:37:30
  Speaker 1: I am. I've gotten threatened. You know, I've had a
• 1:37:33
  Speaker 1: couple of guys way fist under my nose at public meetings.
• 1:37:35
  Speaker 1: But you know, I think I'm five ft eight. Most
• 1:37:39
  Speaker 1: of these guys for me, like you know your honest's
• 1:37:40
  Speaker 1: size and like gonna you out run themselves a bit?
• 1:37:43
  Speaker 1: You can, but if you can get at the door,
• 1:37:46
  Speaker 1: I'd be gone. Um, here's here's an I got our
• 1:37:49
  Speaker 1: question for you about how you're gonna handle this, Like
• 1:37:51
  Speaker 1: you want to do a thing about the Edmund Fitzgerald. Yeah,
• 1:37:55
  Speaker 1: what's there to say? Oh god, there's so much to say.
• 1:37:57
  Speaker 1: If you're a geek. It's like if you're Kennedy assassination
• 1:38:00
  Speaker 1: buff like I used to be, you could I could
• 1:38:02
  Speaker 1: write about that stuff all day. So there's like more
• 1:38:04
  Speaker 1: ship has gone on with the Edmunds captured in Gordon Lightfoot.
• 1:38:09
  Speaker 1: You talk about you know you'd like the expression um,
• 1:38:12
  Speaker 1: that expression um making his own Gravyn FitzGeralds just such
• 1:38:17
  Speaker 1: a rich, rich story. Yeah, it's just for some reason,
• 1:38:21
  Speaker 1: you know, people I was I've always thought it would
• 1:38:24
  Speaker 1: be fun to interview Gordon Lightfoot about the whole thing.
• 1:38:26
  Speaker 1: But um, he's still kicking. Oh yeah, yeah. I saw
• 1:38:30
  Speaker 1: him in concert just two years ago. I've seen him twice.
• 1:38:32
  Speaker 1: I've seen him at least twelve times. You've seen twelve times.
• 1:38:36
  Speaker 1: At least I want to see Gordon Sue Saint Marie, Ontario,
• 1:38:39
  Speaker 1: and everybody there just watch him do, especially in that town.
• 1:38:44
  Speaker 1: It's like when you go to see like Marshall Tucker Band.
• 1:38:47
  Speaker 1: You know, he just like everybody wants to hear him do.
• 1:38:49
  Speaker 1: Can't you see if it's like Hetty East, they want
• 1:38:51
  Speaker 1: to hear same, you know, So everybody's sitting there waiting
• 1:38:55
  Speaker 1: for him to do Edmond Fitzgerald just like you know,
• 1:38:57
  Speaker 1: buying New Time, right. You might get a little excited
• 1:39:00
  Speaker 1: about sundown, right, but most of you there for that.
• 1:39:02
  Speaker 1: And he knows it's coming, man, and he knows that's
• 1:39:04
  Speaker 1: why people are there. And he doesn't do it right
• 1:39:06
  Speaker 1: away because everybody's gonna leave. But towards the end he says,
• 1:39:09
  Speaker 1: um something the effect of he was, you know, it
• 1:39:12
  Speaker 1: was twenty one years ago this November. If people just
• 1:39:14
  Speaker 1: stand up, man, the whole place goes ballistic, their cheering
• 1:39:20
  Speaker 1: before they heard the song. They're just here to remember
• 1:39:22
  Speaker 1: that Edmund Fitzgerald because people from that town died. Yeah,
• 1:39:26
  Speaker 1: Oh definitely. It's um one of the things that I
• 1:39:32
  Speaker 1: always give him credit for and kind of irritase when
• 1:39:35
  Speaker 1: people say you weren't for Garden Lightfoot seven Fitzgerald song
• 1:39:38
  Speaker 1: no one to know about the men. Fitzgerald, I think
• 1:39:40
  Speaker 1: that's true. That's true, I think, but give Gordon Life
• 1:39:43
  Speaker 1: for credit. That guy put a masterpiece there. I mean
• 1:39:47
  Speaker 1: he tapped into something very much in the human psyche,
• 1:39:51
  Speaker 1: that humans are haunted by that kind of stuff like
• 1:39:53
  Speaker 1: Michigan stea beautiful stuff and wonderful, wonderful images. And I think, yeah,
• 1:40:01
  Speaker 1: you know, about twenty years before that, UM, this ship
• 1:40:05
  Speaker 1: called Carl Bradley went down to Lake Michigan and they
• 1:40:08
  Speaker 1: even had I think two survivors in that when they
• 1:40:10
  Speaker 1: had like thirty three guys dieing and two survived. When
• 1:40:13
  Speaker 1: no one wrote a song about the Carl Bradley I'm
• 1:40:16
  Speaker 1: from there. Yeah. And then and there was actually a
• 1:40:18
  Speaker 1: Carl Bradley park up up in Munising, Michigan, up on
• 1:40:21
  Speaker 1: top of the lake. And then UM then also like
• 1:40:25
  Speaker 1: in nine six on Lake Huron, a ship called the
• 1:40:28
  Speaker 1: Daniel J. Morral went down with UM. I think one
• 1:40:32
  Speaker 1: guy survived that, and it was really a sad story
• 1:40:35
  Speaker 1: because the guy UM went out there and he realized
• 1:40:39
  Speaker 1: the ship's breaking up, and there was a life raft
• 1:40:42
  Speaker 1: and he jumped in with four other guys and as
• 1:40:44
  Speaker 1: a ship broke up, a big wave kind of washed
• 1:40:48
  Speaker 1: over this thing. I might be getting the story rob
• 1:40:51
  Speaker 1: and I'm sure someone will look look at my wikipedie
• 1:40:53
  Speaker 1: and correct me on this. But ended up with only
• 1:40:55
  Speaker 1: two guys left on the life raft, and the one
• 1:40:57
  Speaker 1: guy survived was out there for like for over thirty
• 1:41:02
  Speaker 1: six dollars. I think they know the ship was down
• 1:41:04
  Speaker 1: for the longest time. Um, it's like thirty three. Yeah.
• 1:41:10
  Speaker 1: So the moral, the moral, the coolest, A cool story
• 1:41:13
  Speaker 1: about the moral. I want to know the moral of
• 1:41:17
  Speaker 1: the story. I pronouncing it's it's spelled Um, it could
• 1:41:21
  Speaker 1: be pronounced morale for all I know. M R R
• 1:41:25
  Speaker 1: E L L. Well that was the boat. Yeah, that's
• 1:41:27
  Speaker 1: a that's a show. They're gonna tell me the moral
• 1:41:29
  Speaker 1: of the story about. I'll probably get back to that
• 1:41:33
  Speaker 1: at some point. I'm rambling here. But but the Daniel J.
• 1:41:35
  Speaker 1: Morral went down. Morale went down in six No one
• 1:41:38
  Speaker 1: wrote a song about that. But those are the three
• 1:41:40
  Speaker 1: biggest ships to sink on the Great Lakes. But we
• 1:41:43
  Speaker 1: don't even know about them, if it's true, because you know,
• 1:41:45
  Speaker 1: it was a big song right now, hating my kids
• 1:41:49
  Speaker 1: like that. I mean, I remember in the Navy that
• 1:41:51
  Speaker 1: That song came out when I was in my first
• 1:41:53
  Speaker 1: year in the Navy, and it came up in summer
• 1:41:55
  Speaker 1: seventy six. And I remember when when that song came out,
• 1:41:58
  Speaker 1: I listened on because I was like light as a
• 1:41:59
  Speaker 1: light foot geek. I bought almost all his albums that
• 1:42:02
  Speaker 1: he's ever put out. But when that song came out,
• 1:42:05
  Speaker 1: came out Summertime Dream in nineteen seventies, six Eyes. When
• 1:42:07
  Speaker 1: I leave, I bought in downtom Madison brought back, played
• 1:42:10
  Speaker 1: it that song came on. Holy shit. I remember that
• 1:42:14
  Speaker 1: because I was watching the news that night and it
• 1:42:16
  Speaker 1: was the next night and they had a segment on
• 1:42:19
  Speaker 1: the evening news about this ship going down in Lake Superior,
• 1:42:22
  Speaker 1: and so I thought I started reading the lyrics through
• 1:42:24
  Speaker 1: it because he had the lyrics, and inside the album,
• 1:42:27
  Speaker 1: I thought, holy shit, he's wrote a song about this.
• 1:42:30
  Speaker 1: And then I started playing masterpiece. Man, there's a masterpiece.
• 1:42:33
  Speaker 1: Does anyone know where the love of guy? God? That's
• 1:42:35
  Speaker 1: that's those lines there When people say I want to
• 1:42:41
  Speaker 1: hear the song, I did not imagine the pot it
• 1:42:49
  Speaker 1: turning into a Gordon Lightfoot. Well. I admired, I admired
• 1:42:53
  Speaker 1: good writing and that that song is good. Yeah, he
• 1:42:55
  Speaker 1: was visited by an angel or something when he wrote
• 1:42:58
  Speaker 1: because the rest of the stuff is good. Is that
• 1:42:59
  Speaker 1: that good man up love is kind of annoying, like
• 1:43:01
  Speaker 1: Don Quixote song his I love it all. I'm a
• 1:43:05
  Speaker 1: I'm a real, I'm a real Gordon Lightfoot Sundown's beautiful
• 1:43:09
  Speaker 1: song because all about it unfaithful people and you know,
• 1:43:14
  Speaker 1: having affairs going around. Danny warhol Is covered record the
• 1:43:17
  Speaker 1: Dvan Fitzgerald Yeah sht version. Yeah the time when I
• 1:43:21
  Speaker 1: listen to people do the song, I think you need
• 1:43:23
  Speaker 1: you need Gourdon Light from his prime singing that song right.
• 1:43:26
  Speaker 1: But U But you know when people act like they'll
• 1:43:30
  Speaker 1: they'll read about the Fitzgerald or hear about the Fitzgerald
• 1:43:33
  Speaker 1: and say, yeah, I went down so fast they didn't
• 1:43:35
  Speaker 1: have time to to send um an SS and so
• 1:43:39
  Speaker 1: it happened to well suddenly, So these guys probably didn't
• 1:43:42
  Speaker 1: know what was going on. I thought, Man, if you
• 1:43:44
  Speaker 1: think that you've never been a ship, because when you're
• 1:43:48
  Speaker 1: a ship, you feel every freaking little thing that that's
• 1:43:51
  Speaker 1: going on. And I remember laying I racked the navy
• 1:43:54
  Speaker 1: acrossing the North Atlantic. You feel that big ship, right,
• 1:43:57
  Speaker 1: riding up these big waves and then when it's coming
• 1:44:01
  Speaker 1: down on their side and you just sit there and
• 1:44:02
  Speaker 1: you're act wait for it, wait for wait for it,
• 1:44:06
  Speaker 1: and they're just you can just picture the spray coming off,
• 1:44:10
  Speaker 1: you know. So those guys in the fifth Yirald that
• 1:44:12
  Speaker 1: you think those guys live in that ship for months
• 1:44:15
  Speaker 1: that time, back and forth across the lakes, and they're
• 1:44:18
  Speaker 1: out there in the worst storm the captain's ever seen,
• 1:44:21
  Speaker 1: you know. And and they knew the ship had a
• 1:44:24
  Speaker 1: history of having a weird twist in heavy seas where
• 1:44:28
  Speaker 1: it would have its nosewood bow wood twist and creek
• 1:44:32
  Speaker 1: and it was commented known thing about that. Yeah, apparently
• 1:44:36
  Speaker 1: the captain knew about it, and I'd scared him, and
• 1:44:41
  Speaker 1: so I could go in the whole thing about why
• 1:44:42
  Speaker 1: I think if you'd been if you'd survived, why if
• 1:44:45
  Speaker 1: they had if they have a court martial system for
• 1:44:48
  Speaker 1: form Great Lakes captains, you should have been court martial,
• 1:44:50
  Speaker 1: you know. And but m the old cook came to
• 1:44:57
  Speaker 1: I mean, this ship, this ship had enough things wrong
• 1:45:00
  Speaker 1: if the guys knew about it, and yet that guy,
• 1:45:04
  Speaker 1: that captain drove it into the freaking storm, that he
• 1:45:07
  Speaker 1: should have known better, and other captains knew better. The
• 1:45:11
  Speaker 1: captain that left port two hours after him, who who
• 1:45:15
  Speaker 1: was um took his job seriously knew how to do
• 1:45:18
  Speaker 1: knew how to do weather reports, analyze weather information coming in.
• 1:45:23
  Speaker 1: He knew this was not a starting to funk with.
• 1:45:25
  Speaker 1: You know that this is a storm. You go up
• 1:45:27
  Speaker 1: and you hugged that north western corner of that lake,
• 1:45:32
  Speaker 1: and and even anchor if you have to drop the
• 1:45:34
  Speaker 1: hook and anchor. And why there's a song about that guy.
• 1:45:37
  Speaker 1: That's human nature right there, a song about the guy
• 1:45:40
  Speaker 1: that didn't go into the storm. The you know in
• 1:45:45
  Speaker 1: the song he says that they would have made Whitefish
• 1:45:47
  Speaker 1: Bay if they put fifteen more miles behind her. We
• 1:45:50
  Speaker 1: used to spear Whitefish and Whitefish Bay. And in the
• 1:45:52
  Speaker 1: winter when it's frozen, you know, nice always sit you
• 1:45:55
  Speaker 1: can see quite a ways. You know, it's all iced over.
• 1:45:57
  Speaker 1: You know, we sit out there. And when I wasn't
• 1:45:59
  Speaker 1: like busy doing whatever you're doing, fishing and stuff, I
• 1:46:01
  Speaker 1: always kind of look out thinking of that tune. You know,
• 1:46:04
  Speaker 1: it's kind of like it's haunting man. I can tell
• 1:46:06
  Speaker 1: you about that. I'll David. The one thing I want
• 1:46:07
  Speaker 1: to make sure. I tell you that I came across
• 1:46:09
  Speaker 1: when I was reading about the fifth zero, because I'm
• 1:46:11
  Speaker 1: I'm working on a piece right now for meat either
• 1:46:13
  Speaker 1: about UM November gals, and that this UM you know
• 1:46:18
  Speaker 1: last year Spencer neat piece about armistic stay storm kill
• 1:46:22
  Speaker 1: all the duck hunters, and that was November eleven. Well,
• 1:46:24
  Speaker 1: that fift Gero went down November. UM that the Dad,
• 1:46:27
  Speaker 1: the Carol Bradley went down November. The um the Morrell
• 1:46:32
  Speaker 1: went down November twenty nine. There's Halloween storms. I mean
• 1:46:36
  Speaker 1: you can go through and find a storm at the
• 1:46:38
  Speaker 1: storm of a storm that comes through that time of year,
• 1:46:41
  Speaker 1: and and they're they're meaning real gals, and they generate
• 1:46:44
  Speaker 1: forces of UM like fifty mile winds up the ninety
• 1:46:47
  Speaker 1: mile hour winds and ways up THETT and the Fitzgerald
• 1:46:52
  Speaker 1: when the little known pieces. But what destroyed it was
• 1:46:55
  Speaker 1: that um it had been given this given permission to
• 1:46:58
  Speaker 1: carry I think, um, three extra feet of iron ore
• 1:47:02
  Speaker 1: pellets and it's in its cargo holds and so I
• 1:47:05
  Speaker 1: drove it down to is laying about eleving feet of
• 1:47:07
  Speaker 1: a freeboard, you know, water above space, above the water level.
• 1:47:12
  Speaker 1: And so when this thing was crossing the lakes and
• 1:47:13
  Speaker 1: the storm. It was, you know, sitting three ft lower
• 1:47:16
  Speaker 1: in the water than what it was actually built for.
• 1:47:19
  Speaker 1: And these these ore carriers, to people should realize, they
• 1:47:22
  Speaker 1: weren't built like navy ships and passengers ships where there's
• 1:47:26
  Speaker 1: all these watertight bulkheads inside the ship. It was basically huge,
• 1:47:31
  Speaker 1: huge cargo areas. Three huge cargo areas filled with these
• 1:47:36
  Speaker 1: there's like twenty one hatch covers on top. There's like
• 1:47:39
  Speaker 1: a wheelbarrel froating around full of ship exactly a great description.
• 1:47:42
  Speaker 1: And that's all they had in between is based with
• 1:47:44
  Speaker 1: a monster freaking screen like we have here in the room.
• 1:47:48
  Speaker 1: You know, I mean it's metal. Bit's not going to
• 1:47:50
  Speaker 1: stop water from coming into aug its compartments. And then, um,
• 1:47:53
  Speaker 1: the other thing that where I blame the captain for
• 1:47:55
  Speaker 1: it was that they didn't that they were not serious
• 1:47:58
  Speaker 1: about keeping the hatch covers um clamped down um as
• 1:48:03
  Speaker 1: in the navy. So like our old guy again, but
• 1:48:05
  Speaker 1: there are certain hatches on a ship that are always
• 1:48:09
  Speaker 1: dogged down, always dogged on, never opened, you know, for
• 1:48:11
  Speaker 1: water tight integrity. And this this ship they went out
• 1:48:15
  Speaker 1: there there they had sixteen clamps around each those twenty
• 1:48:18
  Speaker 1: one openings holding down a five sixteen inch piece of metal.
• 1:48:22
  Speaker 1: And these hatches, these hatches are about I think they're
• 1:48:25
  Speaker 1: eleven feet wide and forty eight ft long, and they
• 1:48:31
  Speaker 1: only had two clamps holding those down instead of all
• 1:48:34
  Speaker 1: sixteen all clamped down in this. And the investigations came
• 1:48:38
  Speaker 1: out later that they said this, surely the captain hadn't
• 1:48:41
  Speaker 1: been good about maintaining the gaskets on those on those
• 1:48:45
  Speaker 1: hatches or the combing on those on those hatches, and
• 1:48:50
  Speaker 1: then they common to go to sea with only two
• 1:48:52
  Speaker 1: things clamped down, which is not just that ship. A
• 1:48:55
  Speaker 1: lot of those ships didn't do that, so it's real,
• 1:48:57
  Speaker 1: it's real lack stuff. I wonder why gorda why Gord
• 1:49:00
  Speaker 1: didn't take any pot shots at the cat that he
• 1:49:03
  Speaker 1: actually did, you know, like later in in this is
• 1:49:06
  Speaker 1: really geeky hiding in the song. No no, there's a
• 1:49:09
  Speaker 1: part of the song though he rewoked about the hatch
• 1:49:12
  Speaker 1: covers for some NPM the main main hatch quake caved
• 1:49:15
  Speaker 1: in and the hook says fellas has been good to
• 1:49:18
  Speaker 1: know you well. Lightfoot felt guilty later in life because
• 1:49:21
  Speaker 1: that was never really um. Some investigations the initial Coast
• 1:49:26
  Speaker 1: Guard investigation pretty much blamed the hatch covers that they
• 1:49:28
  Speaker 1: caved in and Lightfoot. Um either a knew either knew
• 1:49:32
  Speaker 1: about that or but he wrote his song before the
• 1:49:35
  Speaker 1: all the investigations. But Um he felt guilty about this
• 1:49:39
  Speaker 1: was implying blame on the crew and me, I, look
• 1:49:44
  Speaker 1: as that's not the crew. The crew might not have
• 1:49:46
  Speaker 1: done their job bettening down the hatches, dogging down those hatches. No,
• 1:49:51
  Speaker 1: that's on the captain. The first thing you learned in
• 1:49:54
  Speaker 1: the Navy is that everything stops the captain. Yeah, if
• 1:49:59
  Speaker 1: they have if they have a clue Asian and the
• 1:50:00
  Speaker 1: captains in his rack the middle of the night, they don't,
• 1:50:03
  Speaker 1: They don't throw out the incident that was on deck
• 1:50:06
  Speaker 1: that that night. They threw out that. They go on
• 1:50:08
  Speaker 1: and get the captain and he's done because they figure
• 1:50:10
  Speaker 1: he did not he did not Um put the discipline
• 1:50:15
  Speaker 1: into his his crew to do things right every time.
• 1:50:19
  Speaker 1: And I think that's one thing. Um, if you're if
• 1:50:21
  Speaker 1: you get drilled in the idea that there's a right
• 1:50:23
  Speaker 1: way a wrong way in a Navy way, you never
• 1:50:25
  Speaker 1: forget that these kind of jobs are tedious. Bettening down
• 1:50:29
  Speaker 1: sixteen sixteen clamps on twenty one hatch covers. It's probably
• 1:50:35
  Speaker 1: all day is probably tedious as hell, but but damn it.
• 1:50:38
  Speaker 1: It keeps the ship more stable, more watertight, and it
• 1:50:41
  Speaker 1: should have been done and it wasn't done. So plus
• 1:50:44
  Speaker 1: the ship to the final geeky thing this is these
• 1:50:47
  Speaker 1: are ships to that are built before the days of
• 1:50:49
  Speaker 1: modern computers where they could put a ship model on
• 1:50:52
  Speaker 1: the computer subjected to waves, computerized watching the ship twists.
• 1:50:57
  Speaker 1: But you know, they get back to your comment about
• 1:50:58
  Speaker 1: the sux locks. They built the ships to fit the
• 1:51:01
  Speaker 1: sux locks, not the other way around. And so they
• 1:51:05
  Speaker 1: built these ships. They're too long for the for the
• 1:51:07
  Speaker 1: width of them, and so they created this weakness in
• 1:51:10
  Speaker 1: these ships. And so like they they one of the
• 1:51:14
  Speaker 1: um Fish real sister ships. They think they put it
• 1:51:16
  Speaker 1: on a commission like um later that year because they
• 1:51:19
  Speaker 1: thought they had lengthen the more because the Fisheral was
• 1:51:22
  Speaker 1: was for a long time the biggest ship on the
• 1:51:24
  Speaker 1: Great Lakes. It subsequently got it wasn't the biggest, but
• 1:51:28
  Speaker 1: still the biggest ship to have sunk on the Great Lakes. Uh,
• 1:51:32
  Speaker 1: titilate me real quick? Hit me? Was titillation on the
• 1:51:34
  Speaker 1: you're working on the I don't even know what they are.
• 1:51:36
  Speaker 1: Bullhead murder murder. Yeah, um hit me with some quick.
• 1:51:44
  Speaker 1: A guy was a commercial bullhead um fisherman. That's the
• 1:51:47
  Speaker 1: thing back then that was I go into that in
• 1:51:50
  Speaker 1: the article that that um like he fished bullheads for
• 1:51:52
  Speaker 1: commercial meat markets. They that they seeing them, they hook
• 1:51:55
  Speaker 1: and line. He bought from commercial fishermen. Uh, not just
• 1:51:59
  Speaker 1: commercial fisher but they day in Dale fisherman he'd buy
• 1:52:02
  Speaker 1: bullheads from. Then they had had like people would come
• 1:52:04
  Speaker 1: in and clean them. And this is in southern southern Minnesota,
• 1:52:08
  Speaker 1: real in Minnesota. Yeah, and so there was a market,
• 1:52:12
  Speaker 1: there was a market bullhead, bullhead bullhead market. Well, I
• 1:52:15
  Speaker 1: don't know if there's even flazest on the meat. And
• 1:52:17
  Speaker 1: then you know, they got them and take the heads
• 1:52:19
  Speaker 1: off and skin them. It's nineteen so on July twelfth,
• 1:52:24
  Speaker 1: and they had been investigating this guy because Minnesota had
• 1:52:29
  Speaker 1: had a law my bag limit on bullheads in that air,
• 1:52:33
  Speaker 1: because they were being hit so hard by the commercial market,
• 1:52:35
  Speaker 1: they started kind of clamping down on this and they
• 1:52:39
  Speaker 1: had a possession limit of fifty. Well this guy was
• 1:52:42
  Speaker 1: obviously going way past fifty, but you know, but it
• 1:52:44
  Speaker 1: was still It was one of those things you get
• 1:52:46
  Speaker 1: dodged because other lakes they weren't subject to that same size,
• 1:52:48
  Speaker 1: same bag limit, like up in the Canadian border, the
• 1:52:51
  Speaker 1: lakes of the Minnesota weren't subject to that, but down
• 1:52:53
  Speaker 1: here they were. Over here they weren't. So this guy
• 1:52:55
  Speaker 1: was kind of playing with that, you know that this
• 1:52:58
  Speaker 1: commercial fisherman, well, they find UM tracked down in him.
• 1:53:04
  Speaker 1: They had enough evidence to go in there and start
• 1:53:06
  Speaker 1: putting the screws to him. One day. UM. Three guys,
• 1:53:09
  Speaker 1: three wardens showed up to show him earlier in the
• 1:53:13
  Speaker 1: day and they didn't have a search warrant, and he
• 1:53:15
  Speaker 1: just basically told him to get lost. And in that era,
• 1:53:18
  Speaker 1: the game wardens did not have they did not have
• 1:53:21
  Speaker 1: uniforms of the Minnesota UM Conservation Department. They did not
• 1:53:24
  Speaker 1: curry UM state issued firearms. One of the guys had
• 1:53:28
  Speaker 1: had had his own personal handgun, but he was not
• 1:53:32
  Speaker 1: UM displaying it. He had tucked away some place. Well, UM,
• 1:53:36
  Speaker 1: so two guys go over there, he chased them out.
• 1:53:38
  Speaker 1: They come back later with their basically the lead ward
• 1:53:42
  Speaker 1: and the lead investigator in this in this case, who
• 1:53:45
  Speaker 1: had run ins at times with this commercial fisherman and
• 1:53:48
  Speaker 1: they started putting the screws to him, and one of
• 1:53:51
  Speaker 1: them asked him, what do you can we see your
• 1:53:53
  Speaker 1: your license, you know, commercial license. He said, yeah, I'll
• 1:53:56
  Speaker 1: go get it. So he left this this barn he
• 1:53:58
  Speaker 1: had a barn that he did all the fish processing in,
• 1:54:01
  Speaker 1: walked across the yard to his house. When his house
• 1:54:04
  Speaker 1: came back out the twelve gage, some atomatic twelve gauge,
• 1:54:07
  Speaker 1: and the one warden says to him, there's no one
• 1:54:09
  Speaker 1: need to get smart with that thing. And he says,
• 1:54:12
  Speaker 1: I'll show you who's smart, and he quickly shouldered his
• 1:54:14
  Speaker 1: gun shot the lead warden right in the chest at
• 1:54:18
  Speaker 1: like twenty ft away, knocked him across into his garden,
• 1:54:21
  Speaker 1: his flower garden. He fell dead, swung instant. The next
• 1:54:24
  Speaker 1: guy who Kenny had him to turn yet shoots him,
• 1:54:27
  Speaker 1: kills him on the spot. The third warden was now
• 1:54:31
  Speaker 1: trying to turn and get on there, and he just
• 1:54:33
  Speaker 1: bang shoots him in the back, kills him. Yeah. The story, Yeah, well,
• 1:54:40
  Speaker 1: I always say the power of meat eater, Steve. You
• 1:54:42
  Speaker 1: read a good story and meat eater people read it.
• 1:54:45
  Speaker 1: And I got people right in the spencer, you know,
• 1:54:48
  Speaker 1: telling them about this. This nineteen story remind you of
• 1:54:51
  Speaker 1: old murders. Yeah, yeah, so they they sent the story
• 1:54:54
  Speaker 1: to UM, sent the story to Spencer. Spencer contacted me
• 1:54:57
  Speaker 1: and I started working on it. And if on all
• 1:55:00
  Speaker 1: the old principles and whatnot, that's that's the sad thing.
• 1:55:03
  Speaker 1: All those guys are so long gone. That's right, I
• 1:55:05
  Speaker 1: end up doing. I interviewed um uh fisheries guy about
• 1:55:11
  Speaker 1: the bullhead angle and talked to him about the bullhead
• 1:55:14
  Speaker 1: angle and how why we don't have bullheads in that
• 1:55:17
  Speaker 1: kind of quantity these days. And that's an interesting story
• 1:55:20
  Speaker 1: in itself, good story. And then UM also one of
• 1:55:25
  Speaker 1: the guys who's like a descendant of this word and
• 1:55:28
  Speaker 1: whip where I mentioned talked about in the story. The
• 1:55:30
  Speaker 1: first to lead investigator talked to him a little bit,
• 1:55:33
  Speaker 1: but he was he's probably like a great grandson or grandson.
• 1:55:36
  Speaker 1: I didn't didn't really know anything unique to it. So
• 1:55:39
  Speaker 1: I but a guy in nineteen and I got in
• 1:55:42
  Speaker 1: two thousand twelve though, wrote a page book about it,
• 1:55:47
  Speaker 1: and it's not a long book. He used type that
• 1:55:49
  Speaker 1: you see, like a elementary school type for reading. Yeah,
• 1:55:54
  Speaker 1: well that's true too. It might be for all guys
• 1:55:56
  Speaker 1: like me to read that book. But um, I set
• 1:55:59
  Speaker 1: my doc and on so I can read it without
• 1:56:02
  Speaker 1: my glasses. That's exactly. So that so that that's what
• 1:56:05
  Speaker 1: that was tilting enough, But that that's that story. But
• 1:56:07
  Speaker 1: then the guy killed himself and and they don't really
• 1:56:11
  Speaker 1: ever know for sure why he did that and why
• 1:56:13
  Speaker 1: he killed himself why. The only thing they can speculate
• 1:56:16
  Speaker 1: is that, um, he knew he was losing his his
• 1:56:19
  Speaker 1: empire basically is no longer going to be the bullhead. Yeah,
• 1:56:23
  Speaker 1: shoot a few people. Your bullhead empire is gonna suffer.
• 1:56:27
  Speaker 1: Oh man death with Dirk dude, Thank you. I'm glad
• 1:56:33
  Speaker 1: things went the way they did in that old speak,
• 1:56:35
  Speaker 1: easy deal all them generations ago. Man, you wouldn't be
• 1:56:37
  Speaker 1: sitting here with us, well you know, I wouldn't know what.
• 1:56:39
  Speaker 1: You wouldn't know what. So that's a good point. We
• 1:56:42
  Speaker 1: might be talking to. Something more interesting could be. Can
• 1:56:47
  Speaker 1: I tell the New York Times? Can I tell you
• 1:56:48
  Speaker 1: New York Times story? Real quick? You want to tell
• 1:56:50
  Speaker 1: me a New York Times story? Yeah, real quick, because
• 1:56:53
  Speaker 1: we're done um talking about things that you save. Back
• 1:56:57
  Speaker 1: around nineteen three d four, my um, my late father
• 1:57:03
  Speaker 1: in law, said he had good contact at the New
• 1:57:06
  Speaker 1: York Times, and to get me a job there. All
• 1:57:08
  Speaker 1: I do is put together a little packet of my
• 1:57:11
  Speaker 1: material and and my resume and send it out to
• 1:57:13
  Speaker 1: New York Times, and they'd get me a job. And
• 1:57:16
  Speaker 1: I thought, I want to do that ship get a
• 1:57:19
  Speaker 1: chance works of the New York Times. Sure, you know.
• 1:57:20
  Speaker 1: So I did my package, send it out there, and
• 1:57:23
  Speaker 1: about a month later I got this like a one
• 1:57:26
  Speaker 1: or two sentence letter, and they got my name wrong.
• 1:57:29
  Speaker 1: He said something, my dear Mr Duncan, no jobs. We
• 1:57:32
  Speaker 1: have no jobs for you and prospect and the guy
• 1:57:35
  Speaker 1: sent his name. I had a guy there tonight. This
• 1:57:42
  Speaker 1: is the last story, so you know. You know McCormick
• 1:57:46
  Speaker 1: Carthy is a famous recluse. UM doesn't like talk to anybody,
• 1:57:49
  Speaker 1: won't do interviews. UM. I heard a story the other
• 1:57:53
  Speaker 1: night when I was in Chicago for I was doing
• 1:57:55
  Speaker 1: a fundraiser event for Theodore Roles about conservation partnership, like
• 1:57:59
  Speaker 1: a meat and great type yea. And the guy was
• 1:58:02
  Speaker 1: telling me his story because he knew. He knew I'm
• 1:58:04
  Speaker 1: a great admirer of the work of Corn McCarthy. And
• 1:58:06
  Speaker 1: he told me a story about some guy he knows
• 1:58:10
  Speaker 1: that was going to Santa Fe where Corn McCarthy lives.
• 1:58:13
  Speaker 1: He's going to Santa Fe and wants to meet him,
• 1:58:16
  Speaker 1: but he knows he doesn't like to meet anybody, so
• 1:58:17
  Speaker 1: he writes in this letter saying, like, I know you
• 1:58:19
  Speaker 1: don't like to talk to anybody, um, but you know
• 1:58:23
  Speaker 1: if I could just talk to you for ten minutes? Right?
• 1:58:26
  Speaker 1: No reply? I don't know this true? Does the story
• 1:58:29
  Speaker 1: the guy told me? No reply? He goes and does
• 1:58:32
  Speaker 1: his trip to Santa Fe, comes home, time goes by,
• 1:58:35
  Speaker 1: and eventually he gets a postcard from Corne McCarthy and
• 1:58:39
  Speaker 1: the postcard says fuck you. He's sends a humor about it.
• 1:58:46
  Speaker 1: All that's great. I know it's true or not. All right,
• 1:58:52
  Speaker 1: we'll keep it. You're not gonna retire, are you? Plan
• 1:58:56
  Speaker 1: sixty six? In January social Security kicks in there. Well
• 1:58:59
  Speaker 1: it has been IM gonna claim it yet? Really? Yeah,
• 1:59:02
  Speaker 1: I'm waiting till I'm seventy suing Max off. You're gonna
• 1:59:04
  Speaker 1: dig in though, yeah? Yeah? Like yeah, says I mnna
• 1:59:07
  Speaker 1: fight this to the end. You paid in man, Yeah? Yeah,
• 1:59:10
  Speaker 1: my wife's are you don't get tattoos on medicating all
• 1:59:13
  Speaker 1: that day? They don't pay for that. And you know,
• 1:59:19
  Speaker 1: we could talk all day about my ideas on tattoos. So, oh,
• 1:59:22
  Speaker 1: Spencer new Heart, I don't know if he's really gonna
• 1:59:24
  Speaker 1: do this or not. But is he doing this? I
• 1:59:26
  Speaker 1: don't know this idea. Spencer says that in our auction
• 1:59:29
  Speaker 1: house of oddities to raise money for our land Access initiative,
• 1:59:32
  Speaker 1: Spencer says he's going to auction off the right to
• 1:59:38
  Speaker 1: pick a one inch tattoo on him. You can pack
• 1:59:42
  Speaker 1: whatever you want it to be. Yeah, I told my
• 1:59:45
  Speaker 1: I told my joining him, I said, if you if
• 1:59:47
  Speaker 1: you do that, we can do it side by side.
• 1:59:49
  Speaker 1: I'll do that. Oh you'll get one too, so we
• 1:59:51
  Speaker 1: can auction that off. Yeah that's great. So we gotta
• 1:59:56
  Speaker 1: go there. So let's just say they're like a hundred
• 1:59:58
  Speaker 1: thousand bucks want it, but we're gonna put a little
• 2:00:02
  Speaker 1: one by one inch penis and balls. You're gonna you're
• 2:00:07
  Speaker 1: gonna have to just gonna say an anus. But yeah,
• 2:00:09
  Speaker 1: we'll go with that. Well, if I could, if I
• 2:00:11
  Speaker 1: could to choose a spot, but you would do it
• 2:00:14
  Speaker 1: for conservation, for conservation, but I add to choose a spot,
• 2:00:17
  Speaker 1: it would be someplace visible. Yeah, I went from these
• 2:00:20
  Speaker 1: pencil size arms. I won't put him on my arm.
• 2:00:24
  Speaker 1: You could hide it in your butt cheeks that be sensitive.
• 2:00:33
  Speaker 1: The e spencer tell you what a second tattoo was.
• 2:00:35
  Speaker 1: I don't want to blow his spot up, but it's
• 2:00:37
  Speaker 1: so good. He got the Ham's mascot carrying a giant
• 2:00:41
  Speaker 1: Morrel mushroom. How old is he? Yeah? I think he's thirty.
• 2:00:49
  Speaker 1: Can we just start a hold another one right now
• 2:00:51
  Speaker 1: and start in with tattoos? If you have something to add?
• 2:00:54
  Speaker 1: They were closed. No, we hadn't started. We had to
• 2:00:57
  Speaker 1: start it and hold another podcast right now. No I can't.
• 2:01:00
  Speaker 1: I can't next time. Next time, Pat, thanks for coming on. Man. Oh,
• 2:01:05
  Speaker 1: we'll have to have you back out like he came out.
• 2:01:07
  Speaker 1: Probably a year ago. It's been two next years already
• 2:01:11
  Speaker 1: since we talked about that sonar enthusiast to found all
• 2:01:13
  Speaker 1: the Dead People. We never talked about him. What no, no, no,
• 2:01:16
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I'm confusing by sonar experts. Yeah, that was
• 2:01:19
  Speaker 1: that was. That was That was because that's what I've
• 2:01:24
  Speaker 1: written for Meat Eat about an our guy that's phone
• 2:01:26
  Speaker 1: to get more people like that doing that. Yeah, I
• 2:01:30
  Speaker 1: have um. That was two years ago. We did that
• 2:01:32
  Speaker 1: podcast about but Rick kreeger Mass and finding finding the guys.
• 2:01:36
  Speaker 1: That was a good one. Yeah, that was guys from
• 2:01:38
  Speaker 1: the bottom of Lake Lake Wing grow Lake Wisa Laibsa
• 2:01:42
  Speaker 1: for forty six years in the bottom of that lake
• 2:01:44
  Speaker 1: in that car. Yeah, that was two next years ago. Already,
• 2:01:47
  Speaker 1: Ladies and gentlemen, Pat Durkin on deaf, Thanks Pat, coming on,
• 2:01:52
  Speaker 1: Pat making the trip alright, buddy, see you soon.