Latest / Wealthy Woman Lawyer Podcast, Helping you create a profitable, sustainable law firm you love / Do You Want Information or Transformation?

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Do You Want Information or Transformation? · Wealthy Woman Lawyer Podcast, Helping you create a profitable, sustainable law firm you love

0:02
Unknown: Hi, and welcome to the wealthy woman lawyer podcast.
0:05
I'm your host, Davina Frederick. And I'm here today with Alan
0:08
McBride. Al is a coach, consultant and entrepreneur. And
0:14
he particularly specializes in strategic intervention coaching,
0:19
which is a an approach that really uses different schools of
0:24
psychology. And in helping him coach his clients and helping
0:30
them excel. I'm super excited to have him here today, all the way
0:33
from Dublin, Ireland, I assume that's where you are today. But
0:37
last time you and I spoke you were in Germany, that are you in
0:40
Ireland today.
0:41
I'm actually back in Germany, again, I'm back in Berlin, I
0:44
have been back in Dublin and because at the moment, I'm
0:47
working between a few projects in both places, so
0:54
corporations and other professionals, particularly you
0:58
and I talked about, you're coming on to the podcast,
1:02
because you work with litigation attorneys, and you really help
1:07
people learn how to become better negotiators.
1:11
Is that correct? That's correct. As I say, I usually give people
1:16
the, the psychological edge in negotiation, which is really
1:22
just how I put it in that sense of, often a lot of negotiators
1:25
or people who have to negotiate for a living. And as you say,
1:28
I've worked with litigators in particular, but not exclusively.
1:32
And they're usually very competent at negotiation,
1:36
Otherwise, they wouldn't really get too far in litigation. But
1:41
I've also found that then there's, they're very competent
1:46
at doing it. And usually, as I say, they're very successful,
1:49
but they have several select modes or ways of doing it, that
1:54
work a lot of the time until they don't. And when they don't,
1:58
then they don't have maybe a very good plan B nevermind, a
2:02
Plan C. So what I often give them is that even though they're
2:06
highly competent in the substance of what they're
2:09
saying, there can be these other ways of being the the other ways
2:13
of looking at the situation and dealing both with their own
2:16
client as well as with the other side, their counterpart that
2:21
allows them to open up and get on stock that allows them to see
2:24
more options and find more options with the other side.
2:28
Because even when we you know, with litigators, does that
2:32
situation, you know, are you negotiating? Or are you in that
2:35
maybe that further end where you're doing conflict resolution
2:39
of sorts and says litigation, right. And, but even in those
2:43
situations, as a good as an old colleague, and quite a good
2:47
friend of mine, one of my earlier clients pointed out to
2:51
me is that even though you're doing this conflict resolution
2:54
and things, and when there can be a lot of aggression and
2:56
friction there, you're still having to make a deal. And have
3:01
both sides happy enough with that deal. Because otherwise,
3:05
you go too often you end up in court, right? So that's always
3:09
the back of so that you're still in that same area of, of having
3:14
Actually, both sides being happy enough, or to a certain level of
3:17
contentment about the deal. But it's particularly tricky and
3:20
challenging with litigators. Because you're often starting
3:25
from from a position of high emotions. Usually one side is at
3:29
the very least slighted if not outright offended, but the
3:31
other. And so emotions can be running high, because they're
3:35
tied into whatever it is, you're litigating over. And so that you
3:40
find yourself in a situation where it's often not always but
3:44
often at least one side, or are what are aiming for if they
3:49
can't get what they want, they're aiming for a lose, lose,
3:51
or at least a win, lose, nevermind, win win. Because it's
3:54
like, as long as you're hurting, I don't mind I'll hurt as long
3:58
as you're hurting, you know. And that's, that's seriously
4:01
challenging for anyone trying to try to reach an agreement. So,
4:06
so Yeah,
4:07
are you I got lots of questions for you today. But before we
4:10
really would like to the audience to get to know you a
4:13
little bit better in terms of how, what led you to this, how
4:18
you got from where you were, to really kind of specializing in
4:23
helping people get a psychological edge in
4:26
negotiation and through having more tools in their toolbox for
4:28
negotiation. What, Where did you work? How did you begin your
4:32
career and what led you here?
4:35
Well, I mean, what to say is if there's a few main avenues that
4:39
are probably relevant to this, and that, you know, in
4:42
university, I did psychology with art history. And then after
4:48
I came out of uni, I initially went the art history route. I
4:51
was an art dealer, working galleries and then my own as an
4:53
art consultant. And so through both of those experience, I was
4:57
doing hundreds of deals, you know, it was just niggles.
5:00
seating all the time. And it's also in an area that's very
5:04
highly emotive. You know, even when people are trying to make
5:08
rational decisions, it's all about emotion. It's all about
5:11
how you're perceived, how the artists perceived. And then
5:14
other aspects of investment and all sorts of complications. So
5:18
very interesting area with a lot of egos. A lot of, as I said,
5:23
emotion, and very, very interesting, because a lot of
5:27
those deals were multi dimensional. So it wasn't just a
5:30
transaction. There's a lot of different parties going on,
5:34
because I particularly worked with, with businesses, I wanted
5:37
to work with businesses buying our supporting our hosts, that
5:41
kind of thing. And so I'd work with architects or internal
5:47
interior designers, architectural interior
5:49
designers, so I'd work with larger scale projects, as well
5:52
as large businesses with the businesses were trying to, to
5:56
build up an art collection for various reasons, some partly for
5:59
investment, but a lot of them were also for the purposes of
6:03
setting culture, within with the staff and with the employees,
6:08
but also then, projecting that outward almost had to be in
6:12
keeping with what they wanted their image and of
6:15
differentiation to be for their clients. So this is particularly
6:19
true. Also, again, law firms and accountancy firms, professional
6:22
bodies were in many ways, your scene is very similar to your
6:27
competitors, what I used to say, what differentiates you, from
6:30
your competitor down the street? Why should a client go with you?
6:34
And it's still a question I was writing about this the other
6:36
day, because someone was asking me about it. And this is why
6:39
it's relevant. And why should someone go with you? What is it
6:43
that you do different? And people can come up with the
6:46
usual corporate nonsense about oh, serve the client better say,
6:49
Yeah, but what does that look like? You know, how does that
6:52
what does that matter? So we always remember that, you know,
6:54
there were law firms in London, where one was founded in 1620.
6:59
So all their artworks were paintings or actions or
7:03
furniture was ancient. And the whole message was, we've been
7:08
here for 400 years, we're gonna be here for another 400. So
7:11
we're like, if you're into that more conservative, absolutely
7:14
solid, you know, slow to change, but absolutely dependable, they
7:18
were your people, right? Equally, there was a law firm
7:21
founded in the 60s, all about innovation all the time, always
7:25
on the cutting edge. And so they had artwork from every era, of
7:29
which they were the cutting edge. So their whole things were
7:32
always the cutting edge, long scale, not like cutting edge
7:35
from last year. So it's like we're not we don't just see the
7:39
trends, we lead them and all of that sort of good stuff. So they
7:42
it was a way for the art to speak to both hiring as in if
7:47
you okay, we're all the same, and you're all brilliant. But if
7:50
you want to work with us, we're about these values. And so for
7:53
me, it's an awful lot about values. And I think letting your
7:56
values come through in the negotiation. So we can talk
7:58
about later.
8:01
hadn't thought about artwork, your how your artwork is, it can
8:07
can help you communicate your core values? Because I get it,
8:12
you know, I'm work virtually. And I certainly think about it
8:16
in terms of website design logos, you know, a lot of people
8:20
think about in terms of website design and logos and colors,
8:23
palettes and schemes, what are the colors mean? And all that I
8:27
never really, it's nothing I've ever really thought about about
8:30
how I do no to core like I've worked here for a walk before I
8:35
became a lawyer, I worked for a law firm that was the venerable,
8:38
you know, traditional law firm that like to communicate, they,
8:41
you know, and they have their traditional sort of look in
8:44
their law firm. But you know, here, we're not 400 years old,
8:48
they're more like, you know, and that's the, you know, old,
8:52
right. And so they're decor communicated that sort of
8:57
traditional firm, and you're seeing a lot of young people now
9:00
are starting their firms. And they're doing it remotely.
9:04
They're doing distributed and if and there but their photography
9:08
that they're using is very modern, it's very, you know, it
9:15
looks brighter, lighter, and it conveys sort of this modern
9:19
current age sort of look, you're not seeing as many of the Blue,
9:24
Navy blue websites and muddy green, what sites you're seeing
9:28
things that are sort of different. So it's a
9:31
fascinating, it's very fascinating. And of course, as
9:33
artists, myself, I, I'm, I'm you and I'd love to have that
9:37
conversation with you. But I want to move you along to tell
9:40
you move from this high level negotiation around art with
9:46
corporations, to sort of the work that you do today. You're
9:50
working with a lot of different corporations and business with
9:53
regard to negotiation consulting, basically. So how do
9:57
you actually that transition
10:00
The transition was sort of forced upon me like some great
10:03
transitions are because, particularly in Ireland at the
10:06
time, though, you know, there was the recession, 2007, and
10:09
eight. And there was also a massive housing crisis and
10:13
whatnot in Ireland. And so property crash. And so people
10:17
just weren't buying if that wasn't gonna happen, luxury
10:19
goods were all time low. So I had to do something else. So I
10:23
moved in a different direction, and back toward the more the
10:26
psychological side, where I did various foundational trainings
10:31
and counseling and psychotherapy, and more so than
10:34
into the coaching side, I always knew that the coaching side was
10:37
more, more my more my beat. And I suppose just by doing training
10:42
and facilitating, both in organizations, often in and
10:48
around areas of resilience and performing under pressure, then
10:52
into areas of communications, how to communicate effectively,
10:56
and with impact. They were all going in and around the
11:01
negotiation, because I learned from when I was an art theater
11:04
that how to put it that, you know, I read a lot of
11:08
negotiation, and I realized more and more, this has a huge
11:12
overlap, the modern stuff has a huge overlap with coaching
11:16
skills. Right? So and modern communication, methodology, how
11:21
to communicate better how to gain rapport, how to grow
11:25
rapport, with complete strangers, often from an
11:28
adversarial position, all of this sort of stuff. So that was
11:32
really where it all started to come together, where a lot of
11:34
this previous strands that seemed separate started to come
11:37
together, as did you know, a lot of my experience with various
11:40
entrepreneurial projects over the years where, you know,
11:43
you're having to get out there, you haven't proposed a solution,
11:47
you have to propose essentially a sale, and how uncomfortable
11:51
that is, and how vulnerable you feel, and all of these sort of
11:55
things that, as I said it all we're coming together with this
11:59
this side of negotiation, because good colleagues of mine
12:02
used to give me training work, work started to give me people
12:06
who were quite competent negotiators that had many years
12:11
experience, sometimes decades, but they still feel they were
12:14
lacking something they still feel there was a whole area that
12:18
they weren't familiar with. So the new the standard negotiation
12:21
models for preparing and for executing their negotiations,
12:25
but they fail, sometimes I played sometimes, like they got
12:28
stuck or couldn't get unstuck, or just it wasn't a terribly
12:31
satisfactory outcome, that they felt they were leaving some form
12:34
of money or opportunity or something on the table that they
12:37
weren't grasping. And when I started working with them, it
12:40
was that the a lot of those coaching skills, and
12:45
communication and those sort of insights, help them unlock lower
12:52
some of their own ego defenses and being able to build that
12:54
rapport to actually open up the other side. So it's the classic
12:57
thing that we say easier said than done, of moving someone
13:01
from an adversarial position to an ally, more of an ally,
13:03
positioner. And don't forget, like an ally people, people
13:07
think you know, your best mates or something. No, you're not at
13:09
all, you know, written in America, in the Second World War
13:12
had huge disagreements over all sorts of things. But you had
13:14
generally this idea that you were solving this problem, you
13:18
are tackling this challenge together. And the more you can
13:21
get into that mindset, the more both of you are actually adding
13:26
value to this thing, rather than adding to the problem. Rather
13:30
than just scoring points off one another in that traditional
13:34
adversarial position. Now, as I said that, that's easier said
13:37
than done. But one of the things that a lot of people miss, and
13:41
this is the importance of trust, and there was some research done
13:44
on this. Where generally when there's high trust between the
13:49
two parties, they're going to make in and around 30 to 35%
13:55
more value in that deal that they come to where there's low
13:58
trust, then it's even less, it's far less than zero, basically,
14:02
they won't come to an agreement and things will go very, very
14:04
messy. And mid trust will be a little bit of a game, but it
14:08
will be very transactional. Right? They don't get beyond
14:12
just the IP you one side pays money and the other side gives a
14:16
service type of idea, you know, or, or a settlement in this way
14:20
of the barely acceptable level. But when there's an element of
14:23
rapport building into trust, then all of a sudden, there's
14:27
all sorts of interesting and unique situational additions of
14:31
value that create huge Well, let's be honest, huge wealth.
14:36
Right? So
14:37
you because I want to, I really want to give me so much to
14:42
unpack and questions been popping in my mind as you're
14:45
talking. One is I really want to bring this to our audience. Our
14:49
audience are women, law firm owners, and they own small law
14:54
firm, small to mid sized law firms. And I want to just share
14:59
a couple of things. with you from. So I was when I was in law
15:02
school, I took one class on alternate dispute resolution.
15:09
And the textbook for that was Who Moved My Cheese? Like, if
15:13
that tells me an indication of how unhelpful that was in
15:18
negotiation? You know, it was it was very simple sort of concept.
15:22
And then a very popular book a lot of attorneys read is never
15:26
split the difference, which was written by a guy who was like a
15:29
hostage negotiator, negotiator. So that's a whole different
15:33
level, and that he's coming from the standpoint of a hostage
15:36
negotiator. Like, how awful is that to think people were being
15:41
held hostage, and you have to negotiate it. So my clients,
15:45
our, our negotiation is such a huge part of what they do all
15:51
day, every day, whether they're litigator or not. They're having
15:55
to negotiate with their clients, they're having to negotiate with
15:58
their opposing counsel. And oftentimes, and of course,
16:03
obviously, you know, with other parties and opposing counsel,
16:07
and in court situations, oftentimes, one of the most
16:12
challenging aspects are, is negotiating with opposing
16:16
counsel, especially if you're dealing with people, men and
16:19
women have very different sort of styles and generally
16:21
speaking, right. And if you're dealing with men, men might come
16:27
in with a big ego, and a much more driven sort of approach,
16:31
women might come with something that's a little bit more, you
16:35
know, can we work through this and get along? Again, these are
16:38
sort of general statements, I know, there are women who are
16:41
really aggressive, and there are men who are much more, you know,
16:45
softer in their approach. But what kinds of what you're really
16:51
talking about here, we just have about psychological edge is
16:55
really about sort of understanding human behavior,
16:59
human behavior and human thought. Somebody else thinks
17:04
and really getting connected with what other people where
17:08
other people in the room are coming from and what they're
17:10
thinking, right. So isn't that sort of increasing your
17:13
perception of what is going on with other people in the room
17:19
and dialing yourself back? enough to be able to understand
17:25
that, is that kind of what you're talking about? That's,
17:27
that's
17:27
very much what I'm talking about. Yeah, absolutely. I mean,
17:29
I know, never split the difference. And Chris Voss
17:33
negotiate the FBI negotiator. And he writes great stories.
17:37
It's why it was such a successful book, because it's so
17:40
evocative with the storytelling, but again, you look at that, and
17:43
it's all about how to talk to people, it's all about not
17:47
rushing to conclusions, and actually having empathy, right
17:51
of what he calls tactical empathy, I disagree with him on
17:54
that point, it's, it's actually more strategic empathy, because
17:57
it's from your very, as I say, values, again, what you stand
18:02
for, and it's from your very approach, rather than just a
18:06
little tactical thing that you can do. But it is exactly that
18:12
it's having that level of empathy. And this is, we don't
18:16
want to Let's Get clear on what empathy is, at no point, are you
18:19
agreeing with the other side, or condoning any actions or from
18:24
the other side? All you're doing is trying to understand the
18:30
other side. Right? So this is a principle that I call things
18:34
like a shrink. So you know, how does it shrink or a coach or a
18:40
therapist, whatever you want to call them? Think? Well, they're
18:43
fully present. But emotionally, emotionally non manipulative.
18:50
That's the point that can't be manipulated. Right? So but
18:54
they're fully present or fully there, they can be sued, the
18:58
other side can be trying to sweet talk them and being
19:01
charming, and all of this sort of stuff, which is often harder
19:04
to spot, by the way, because everybody spots the super
19:06
aggressive ego person who's on the attack. And usually, you
19:10
know, you can It's unpleasant, but you can easily just deflect
19:12
it right. But it's the charming person who's often you know, Oh,
19:16
yeah. When, when and all of this sort of stuff. And yeah, we're
19:19
going to create a great outcome and all this is like, Yeah,
19:22
maybe. But you need as you said, it's fully present. So they feel
19:27
you're there. They feel you're fully hearing them, you're fully
19:30
taken on board what they're saying and reading all of the
19:34
lines underneath. That you're you're getting a sense of
19:38
context, you're getting a sense of, okay, this person needs to
19:42
be this super aggressive attack dog for their clients. This is
19:48
something that came across to me it was very interesting, as you
19:50
said that a lawyer isn't just, it's me versus the other side.
19:54
It's like, no, no, you're negotiating with your client who
19:58
you need to be in each engagement. You're negotiating
20:01
with the other side's client, you're negotiating with the
20:04
other side's lawyer, right? And then potentially, if there's a
20:08
judge or mediator or someone else involved, there's a whole
20:12
other element as well, that the other person you're negotiating
20:15
with that's often most overlooked? Is you? Which
20:18
version of you, are you going to turn up? Are you going to be
20:21
that attack dog? Are you going to be highly conciliatory? Are
20:26
you going to be charming and gentle and playful and warm? Are
20:30
you going to be ferocious, quite cold? How are you going to turn
20:35
up and that's a choice. And again, it's a choice. But most
20:39
people just act on habit. And again, it goes back to what we
20:41
talked about the start where people act on the few habits,
20:45
the strategies that work for them back in the day, and often
20:49
work for them until they don't. And this is the point that it's
20:53
the until they don't that we have other ways of emotionally
20:56
being. So for example, I had one of the old litigator, friends of
21:00
mine, colleagues of mine, a client of mine, you know,
21:04
saying, oh, this person just hates me. And I don't know why.
21:07
I mean, we I don't know what I said. And it's just one of these
21:10
things that we looked at, we analyze that was one of these
21:12
for they jumped straight into business, like, okay, here we
21:15
go, this is how I see it, how do you see it? And this person was
21:19
just like, Nope, you need to treat me like a human being
21:22
first. And he came back. And then he sort of said, okay,
21:25
look, I think we got off on the wrong foot, I have to apologize,
21:29
since I'm far from perfect at this, you know, and just that
21:32
human element of a pilot, a simple apology and genuine,
21:37
everything was fine, then it's like, oh, that's perfectly fine.
21:39
Thank you so much. They're able to talk in a human way, and then
21:42
get into the business.
21:44
There's a woman that I spoke with who studies a nonverbal
21:50
communication, I've studied non verbal communication from the
21:53
same teacher. And she's She helps trial lawyers do jury
22:00
selection. And she talks about how she can come across to
22:03
people. And so with her, it's all about your nonverbals and
22:07
messenger, Cindy. And she says, if you're having somebody who
22:10
comes into view with you, who's all business, you need to meet
22:13
them where they are, if you started, you have to find
22:16
parking. Did you? Was everything okay? Yeah, they're not they're
22:20
gonna get, there's going to be an irritation there. You need to
22:24
come in and find a law and then you can shift things, but it's
22:29
and then the opposite. If you're coming in with somebody who
22:31
needs the who needs to, to make sure to say good morning, and
22:35
how should you know, how's the parking, weather's beautiful.
22:39
And you, and they're giving you those clues by their what
22:43
they're saying and by their nonverbals, then you need to
22:46
leave the why what you're talking about sounds like is
22:49
really assessing where people are, and being able to pick and
22:55
choose from your own arsenal, of how to, to meet with them, so
23:00
that you can begin to kind of align where the two of you are
23:04
working at problem.
23:06
Exactly. And that's precisely it is that, you know, people, like
23:09
people work with people that they like, you know, people will
23:13
do deals with people that they like, if they win, the hardest
23:15
thing to do is do a deal with someone who doesn't like you.
23:21
You know, it's this idea of the substance versus the process
23:25
versus the people, particularly people who are in expertise
23:29
based professions, like as you say, like to whether it's it or
23:33
law, that are all about the substance, it's all about the
23:35
skill in my arguing, you know, in my all of us. In fact, when
23:41
unless, you know, a negotiated deals, the most important thing
23:45
by far 55% of success on negotiated deals is the people
23:51
side. Now that doesn't mean that you need to be best mates, as I
23:53
said, or they need to like like you like want to go for a beer
23:57
type of thing. It's that they like slash respect you so that
24:02
again, that you don't have to be friendly, friendly. No, some
24:06
people do want that. But others. Yeah, they're this person is
24:09
competent, they're on the ball. We're straight in where you
24:12
know, if that's what they want, that you're able to maneuver is
24:16
notice the cue and maneuver because as you say, it's a lot
24:18
easier to move people to where you want to go when you meet
24:21
them where they are, not where you are. And it's knowing that
24:26
you were virtually never at the same place, particularly when
24:29
you're on other sides of the table. So but as you said, to
24:32
listen for those cues to meet them where they are, and then
24:35
it's easier to maneuver them. Because either you're in that
24:38
kind of yet we're down to business to talking about some
24:41
of the issues, even though you can still turn it to them, make
24:44
them feel heard. Okay, what's your position on this? What's
24:46
your position on that? Okay, well, we have to completely
24:49
disagree on that. But, but you know, you're going straight into
24:52
hearing them out. You can play them at their game. What we call
24:57
it is is directing not dictating is one of The most underused
25:02
forms of communication were, again, like a shrink, who's
25:06
doing the talking in that room, the shrink or the coach, the
25:09
shrink the code, or the client, it's always the shrink, right?
25:12
They they're doing so little talking, but they are completely
25:15
directing the flow of that conversation, but making the
25:19
other first person feel listened to heard, understood, respected,
25:22
regarded, etc. And that's what builds a rapport with the client
25:27
with the coach. Whereas it can be very similar in, in any form
25:33
of conversation. One side is doing the talking, the other
25:36
side is learning. Right, right. Because then when you're putting
25:41
your either your counter points, or indeed your counter
25:44
suggestions to them, you can fit them much more accurately in
25:48
with the worldview of the other side. And it's also, as I said,
25:52
knowing what one of the great things you can do. And it's some
25:56
ways it's quite easy, in some ways is a bit more tricky. But
25:58
is what are the other side's KPIs? What are the key
26:01
performance indicators? How are they judged? How do they judge a
26:04
success or a win? Now some parts of that will be quite easy, some
26:10
more, maybe more tricky. But you, you start with a hypothesis
26:14
and you're taking that into that room into that conversation.
26:19
Where you're then testing the hypothesis like a scientist,
26:21
you're getting that new information and updating it to
26:24
make it more accurate. So you're wanting to move from right, to
26:28
accurate. This is a key differentiator, the ego wants us
26:31
to be right, and is looking for information when the biggest
26:34
most you know, comprehensive bias and human thinking error
26:40
that we have is the confirmation bias. Basically, we look for
26:43
information that confirms what we already think or believe or
26:47
know to be true, right? Whereas when you are doing the opposite,
26:51
when you're trying to be accurate. You're looking for
26:55
information that makes you more accurate. Not that makes you
26:58
right and what that what that means is one of the ways to
27:01
think of, okay, if I was to bet on this, would I bet $100,000
27:06
that I'm right, whatever that might be that you know, whoever
27:08
will win, you know, the NFL the Super Bowl next year? Yeah, you
27:13
can say it, but someone says, would you bet $100,000 on that?
27:17
Well, well, why? Because suddenly, if you're asked to put
27:20
skin in the game, whatever that might be that this company,
27:23
you're literally putting you know someone else's skin in the
27:26
game. So this is what you're doing. Maybe the payout is say
27:29
$250,000, or half a million dollars very major client,
27:32
right. That's what you're doing. That's what's at stake. So think
27:34
of it in those terms. So what is likely that you think it's this?
27:41
That's fine? What, how confident? Are you put a
27:44
percentage on it? I'm 90% Confident, that's how that's the
27:48
answer. Oh, you're 90 Great. This is how we get away from the
27:51
confirmation bias. So you're 90% confident, that means you're 10%
27:54
not confident, confident. So what's the 10%? Let's explore
27:58
that. So you go in there, and you see the issues, and then you
28:01
can mitigate or D risks. And you can also talk to colleagues, you
28:05
can talk or whatever. Once again, I talked about this when
28:07
we're talking about leadership development, which was another
28:10
area I do as well, because the leadership is a part of that
28:13
internal negotiation is saying, well, first we lead ourselves,
28:16
right? So is that same thing is the difference between imagine,
28:21
you know, you're speaking to a colleague, and they say, I owe
28:24
80%? Certain this is the right way to go. But I have a few
28:28
reservations, what are your thoughts? Should? Do you think I
28:31
should be more certain or lesser? It leaves this versus
28:36
this is where I think we should go? What do you think? Right? So
28:40
one opens the space. It opens the space for that collaboration
28:46
of ideas of adding value new perspectives. So I think this
28:49
element you're missing out on all I think this is actually not
28:53
as high risk as we thought, blah, blah, blah, and so on. But
28:56
this is where we get away from that dominant idea of my
29:01
interests, I don't really care about your interests, or being
29:04
overly appeasing, where I'm concerned more about your
29:08
interests and less about mine. Compromise being that 5050 We're
29:13
both barely getting enough of what we need to be content.
29:18
Whereas collaboration, collaboration starts with the
29:21
question, how do we both get as close to 100% of what we want?
29:27
How do we both get as close to 100% of what we want? What an
29:29
amazing question
29:31
within negotiations thinking, How do I get 100% of what I
29:35
want? Exactly. We both come out of this and we have a say in
29:41
basically in family law or in the law here that like if you if
29:45
you come out and both parties are unhappy, then you're
29:48
successful. Because you because nobody's gonna get 100% of what
29:53
they want right at first. I want to so I don't I don't want to
29:58
take sides on politics. Although anybody who knows me knows, I
30:01
have real strong opinions about politics, but it is a huge issue
30:04
here in the United States. And we're seeing it, you know, all
30:07
around the world and other countries as well in our, in our
30:10
national elections and our local elections, where there's this
30:13
kind of conservative progressive, you know, push and
30:17
pull and the United States is become a really challenging
30:22
issue, because you have such extreme beliefs on either side.
30:28
And people are having a hard time. Even having discussions
30:33
with people with different viewpoints anymore, because it's
30:38
good, because it feels so much like everything is a deal
30:41
breaker, like you seem to people are so far apart in their
30:46
beliefs in their political beliefs, that it's getting to a
30:51
point where people are cutting people out of their family, you
30:53
know, they're like, I'm blocking all these people that are my
30:57
friends in real life on my social media, because I'm
30:59
finding out who they are and what they really believe what
31:02
they really stand for. And so that is a huge thing that sort
31:08
of going on culturally, as well. How can we? How can we no matter
31:16
where we are on the spectrum, start to make changes and use
31:20
the use of these negotiation strategies to be more open to
31:26
conversation, and maybe be able to have conversations that might
31:32
bring people more to the middle in talking with how, yeah, I
31:39
want to say without the expectation that we are going
31:47
to, you know, I don't know like change people's mind. I think
31:54
it's it's difficult.
31:55
That's the first point. Yeah. Well, but that's what most
32:00
people are trying to do. They're trying to call the other side an
32:03
idiot. And you're wrong. So again, it goes back to this
32:06
wrong versus accurate. So Park being right or wrong for the
32:10
moment. Not not forever, but just for the moment, and
32:14
actually try and look under what's going on. So one of the
32:18
one of the key attributes, is ascribe positive intent. So even
32:25
if someone says, I hate you, and I want you to die, and Avella
32:28
and all these horrible things that people say, what's going on
32:30
underneath that? So again, do you think like a shrink? Let the
32:37
actual statement wash over you, you know, off a duck's back?
32:41
What's the, what's the request beneath that? You know, is it
32:46
something like, I'm fearful that things are changing? And I don't
32:50
like it is often, you know, yeah, for example, one of the
32:52
things that might be being communicated under this tirade
32:56
of abuse, right? But it's, it's, as I said, getting to this idea
33:01
of actually having someone on the left and letting them speak,
33:04
how often do we let someone that we don't agree with speak, we
33:08
tend to cut them off, we tend to interrupt them with arguments of
33:11
how they're wrong. And they're probably trying to do the same
33:15
to us. And this is why there's, there's a breakdown of dialogue.
33:18
So it's very difficult, particularly when there are
33:20
emotions at stake, to get beneatha. But it is this idea
33:26
of, as I said, managing our own mental and emotional states I
33:29
how what we think and how we feel our emotions, to be able to
33:33
be in fully present, but an emotionally non manipulative
33:38
space. So we're not trying to manipulate them, per se. And
33:41
when they're certainly not going to be manipulating us, they're
33:44
not going to rise to the fight, so to speak, and just hear them
33:48
out. What's their argue? What is their position? But what's
33:52
beneath their position? What's the need? Is it security? Is it
33:57
is it ideas of some concept of freedom, some concept of, of, I
34:04
don't know of? What are the values that are trying to
34:09
express here? Now, we don't need to agree with that, again,
34:12
there's no agreement that you're going to come to, but for
34:15
example, I had a conversation with a guy in a bar in London
34:19
several years ago, when I lived in London. And he was a little
34:24
bit of a controversial figure, and he was annoying some people
34:26
around us, but, you know, I wanted to talk to this guy. And
34:29
he was a Brexit supporter. So a few people were like, oh, you
34:33
know, I don't want to hear I don't know, wow, you know,
34:36
hideous, you know, fascists, you know, whatever. Racist. And all
34:41
of these things may or may not have been true. But it's like,
34:44
okay, well, I wanted to talk to this guy. So I just talked with
34:47
him. And long story short, again, whether you agree with
34:50
him or not. He talks about how he feels like he didn't fit in
34:56
anymore. He felt unwelcome in the town that he grew up in. He
34:59
felt afraid. In a lot of places where I used to feel very safe,
35:04
and that was the underlying need, there was an old man who
35:07
was now afraid. And things that were familiar were now scary.
35:11
And again, was it the way to handle it? No, of course not.
35:15
Was that a you know, but could I empathize with an old man who
35:20
suddenly felt fear? Yes, you can. So this was the point but,
35:24
and he actually he was kind of very grateful. At the end, they
35:27
said, I think you're the first one who actually ever asked me
35:31
why I voted the way either people agreed with us like,
35:34
yeah, you know, and slogan stuff, or people disagree with
35:37
them. And when, yeah, instant judgment and slogan stuff. And
35:41
it's getting beneath the slogans getting beneath that. Because
35:44
sometimes, you know, people haven't thought this thing
35:46
through. And it's just basically a slogan that they fit in within
35:49
their tribal leanings, where they feel accepted. But other
35:54
times, there's, you know, often there's a real value is caused
35:57
there that we don't like this because it threatens this other
36:02
thing that we care about very much. And again, you don't need
36:05
to agree with that you can fundamentally disagree with
36:08
that. But you can at least understand the human need that's
36:11
at work here, you know,
36:14
which might have some sort of advancement, if you can think of
36:18
a way for that help. Right.
36:23
Exactly. I mean, it's called just so it's called the movable
36:25
middle finding that that area where you kind of both just
36:29
about agree on, and then being able to just move, cause people
36:34
are able to move slightly further, you know, sort of,
36:37
again, the NFL, if you're near the goal line, you know, moving
36:40
up to the halfway line is a big leap. But if you're, if you're
36:45
near that halfway line, moving them over the halfway line is a
36:48
good bit easier. So because you can find this move a middle. The
36:51
other thing is presuming that you're fully right. Have a bit
36:55
of humility, maybe there's a few things that you're inaccurate on
36:58
Oh, my God, you're actually off on and willing to update your
37:02
schema, your worldview, that may or may need updating here,
37:06
right. So again, it's it's we presume, when we're going into
37:10
these conversations that we are clearly right, to a moral level.
37:15
And they're clearly wrong for all sorts of factual and then to
37:19
a moral level. And I'm suggesting that maybe if we're
37:23
willing to move and update or idea, maybe they are, too,
37:26
which leads me to my next question, which is about, and I
37:30
probably could have sparked some people off on both sides in that
37:33
comment. But which leads me to my next question, which is about
37:37
facts. I think a lot of people come into negotiations,
37:42
thinking, Well, here's the facts. Here's the law, you know,
37:45
like attorneys facts loss is very clear. Right? Here's the
37:49
facts that I have. And yet, we know from plenty of research has
37:55
been out there is that facts aren't the most persuasive. Same
38:00
thing sometimes, like, Absolutely. what the facts are.
38:05
So going to negotiation? How can you give like percentage, like,
38:11
how important is what you know, like what you think, you know,
38:15
right?
38:16
This kind of thing? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Again, it goes back to
38:22
that idea of substance. That's where the facts and your legal
38:24
arguments and all the rest of it come into it. But the, you know,
38:29
that only describes what 7% or something of the outcomes,
38:33
whereas 38%, you know, are the process 55% of the people. So
38:41
the process being, you know, what we're focusing on that's,
38:44
again, like the framing, it's like, we're going to focus on
38:47
this and not that we're going to talk about it. In these terms,
38:51
we're going to look at it through this lens. So when you
38:53
have more influence on the process, is that I was already
38:57
framing how we're going to view the thing. But then, but first
39:01
and foremost is the people because if they don't have some
39:03
regard and respect for you, they're not going to hear you.
39:07
They're not going to actually hear your argument to wait us.
39:10
They've already judged your argument if they don't like you,
39:14
and don't respect you. And this was the problem, for example,
39:16
with the Brexit thing was that people were giving all these
39:20
facts. Oh, well, look at all this money that we make from the
39:22
EU. And yes, we put money in where we get our money out and
39:25
blah, blah, blah. And people were like, Yeah, but you're
39:28
telling me this, and I don't like you. That was the problem.
39:30
The people didn't like the people telling them this fact.
39:34
So they disregarded or they saw the facts, even if they heard
39:38
them through this lens. Have you ever I don't like you? And I
39:43
they either didn't trust them or they're like I actually am
39:45
diametrically opposed to how you do things, you know, so, so
39:49
again, it's that sort of thing that they won't even hear the
39:53
arguments. If they don't have some level of respect for you or
39:58
feel that you're in some way I have an under a potential for
40:02
understanding.
40:03
You've mentioned that several times. So let's talk about that.
40:06
How do we, if people are coming in and they, they don't respect
40:12
us fundamentally to begin with? How do we shift that? Because we
40:15
certainly have, we have that going on in our city. So let's
40:22
say we put it in that, let's put it in a negotiation room where
40:24
you have somebody who looks like somebody that you automatically
40:30
make assumptions about. You know, I remember when I started
40:34
in my career, you know, people would say I was a feminazis,
40:39
because I had, I was various, my first husband, I had a
40:41
hyphenated last name. And so I would have older white men who
40:46
saw me younger woman, married to somebody from different
40:50
ethnicity had a hyphenated name. And they would say, You're a
40:53
feminazis. So they immediately I mean, could there be anything
40:57
more offensive than calling somebody and honestly, I mean,
41:00
except for two people who identify as Nazis, but like,
41:03
they immediately come in with a lack of respect because of who
41:08
they thought I was. Right. And I do think that a lot of because
41:16
we have, you know, in the United States, we have such a
41:19
culturally diverse, and there's a lot of tension between people
41:23
in different groups. There are those things where you walk into
41:28
a room and you feel like you're immediately not respected by
41:33
other person that and that may be an age thing. I know, a lot
41:37
of young women attorneys have reported that they, you know,
41:42
get treated a certain way by older attorneys. I know when I
41:46
first started out in my career, I had people play, try to play
41:49
mind games and fall sanctions against me for no reason. And
41:52
there was no nothing sanctionable just to mess with
41:55
me because I was a young, a trans new attorney, right? So
41:59
what do you do when you know somebody because of your because
42:03
of who they think you are, automatically doesn't respect
42:07
you. And maybe there are several people in the room. Look at you
42:11
that way. I know that there have been a lot of young women,
42:14
attorneys of color, or women attorneys of color who've gone
42:17
in to a courtroom. And people, other people in the courtroom
42:21
think that they are not an attorney, that there are a court
42:27
reporter or even a defendant in some cases. What do you do when
42:32
you go into a situation like that? And you immediately know
42:37
that there are people looking at you thinking that they know who
42:39
you are, and they don't respect you. So how do you? How do you
42:45
get that respect? And in a moment, very quickly, like how
42:52
do you let them know like, what are some techniques or something
42:58
you can do that gets you it gets people to really go wait a
43:01
minute, I need to back up a little bit here? Well,
43:05
there's obviously there's a few different approaches you can
43:07
take. So and this depends on your personality as well. In
43:12
that, the first thing is to know your stuff, obviously, when you
43:15
come in, be ready to do the business. Now you can be playful
43:20
as in, you can actually cut some of that tension. If you're that
43:25
sort of person who can actually either be playful with yourself,
43:29
or about yourself or the situation. Some people that
43:32
works very well, you know, I've known quite a few people who've
43:35
been able to, they literally use it as a tactic to break the ice
43:39
to break nervousness, you know, they can be quite playful. And
43:45
as I said, that just lightens the mood. It's like, oh, a few
43:49
kind of moment, you know, when there's a lot of tension with
43:51
this situation, playfulness, maybe less appropriate, you
43:54
know, particularly depending on the room that you're walking
43:56
into it right? So it's, you know, it's very different. If
43:59
it's, you know, with the other lawyer of both clients or their
44:04
versus in a courtroom, whatever, it's radically different
44:07
situation. But one of the ones is to just act in a totally
44:12
professional, competent manner. You know, because then you're
44:17
playing with the schema. So they're thinking, Oh, I thought
44:20
you'd be shrill feminist lawyer. Simpson says, you know, shrill
44:24
feminism, as a service is used to you know, play with that
44:28
stereotype. And instead you're not, you're highly competent,
44:32
you do want to turn to them and this based on this, this person,
44:36
and so everything is nice and orderly and in a row just as
44:39
professional as anyone else would we expect to be? It's
44:43
harder for them to keep this schema than idea, the original
44:48
idea. Another is, you know, to kill them with kindness. Be
44:52
extremely pleasant and polite. It's very hard for them to then
44:56
again go oh, you're a terrible person. You're this than the
44:59
other because you're not sure if they will see what you're they
45:06
will see your behavior still through a different lens. But
45:09
it's harder and harder when the experience doesn't match the
45:13
initial assumption to keep that assumption. Whereas when you
45:18
burst into this is the unfortunate thing when you burst
45:21
into this isn't fair, or how dare you are this than the
45:24
other. That can work sometimes. And it can backfire. And others
45:27
in the sense of they think they're having their view
45:31
confirmed. Whereas an actual fact is not so much just to say
45:37
sometimes you need to stand up to the bully. So if someone
45:39
says, How dare you even think to ask, How dare you blah, blah,
45:44
blah, and then you're back on facts, but you're pushing back,
45:47
as in, I will give as good as I get. And you can even say, you
45:51
know, you push me I'll push back in a nice way and kind of a
45:55
look, if we want to play it that way. We can play it that way.
45:58
I'm highly flexible and adaptable as to how this whole
46:02
negotiation goes, if you want to be shouty. Maybe I'll share it
46:05
back, maybe I'll just not, you know. So it's that choice of
46:10
being able to think, what is this person trying to be? What
46:13
is their usual way of being. And you can either go with us with
46:18
that pattern for as long as it suits you, or pattern interrupts
46:24
you know, you can do the pattern, shatter their pattern
46:27
by the pattern, interrupt. Yeah. But just to say, there's no one
46:31
way of doing this, and it has to be authentically you. But what I
46:34
would say is that, you have the freedom to run experiments, you
46:39
have the freedom to try ways of being that maybe you do already
46:42
very well, or maybe that you haven't tried out as much.
46:48
So that's a lot of what you're talking about when you're
46:50
talking about sort of a psychological edge is really,
46:54
the more you understand yourself, the more you
46:58
understand how other people behave, and that there are
47:02
underlying things underneath it. One of the first one of the
47:05
great books is The Four Agreements, a lot of people
47:07
reference that book, I've recommended that book and one of
47:10
the things that I go back to over and over again, in that
47:12
book is not to take things personally. And when you realize
47:15
that somebody else's behavior is not about you as a person,
47:19
because they don't know you as a person. Exactly. them it is
47:23
about them, and their whatever they've got going on in their
47:27
head, right? Past experiences don't have anything to do with
47:31
you, then it it shifts the power a little bit.
47:35
Absolutely. And that's the shift and the power that you need,
47:39
that you don't need their respect. That's the first
47:42
awareness that you have, because they don't know you. They and
47:46
it's sad, to the point of the Senate, but it's also
47:49
frustrating because you're the one having to deal with it, is
47:52
that they don't know you. They're dealing with a concept
47:56
they have in their head, which is outdated, outmoded,
48:00
inaccurate, you name it. And it's not fair. Fairness is a
48:04
human construct. You know, it's not fair, you know, that one
48:09
animal eats another. But on the flip side of one animal eating
48:13
another is another animal gets, you know, the kids get to eat
48:16
not die out, right. So, you know, it's where you put the
48:19
lens on that fairness. And that's not quite the right
48:22
analogy. But it's the point that fairness is a human construct
48:25
that we bring the fairness, you don't need to be respected
48:29
outside of the gates, because you respect yourself. And you
48:33
know, better than they do, as, just as you said that they're
48:37
dealing with a concept of you, not you, but you have to be you
48:42
whether that's being hyper competent, whether as I said,
48:44
being playful, or highly aggressive back, or a mix, this
48:49
is the thing that often my clients say is that it opens up
48:52
the full spectrum of possibility. So that you can be
48:55
a GRE highly aggressive back down into being assertive, you
49:00
can be compromising on this point that you know, it's
49:02
important to them, even then being kind over here. And then
49:07
up to being collaborate collaborative of, of trying to
49:11
bring them further on side, and to solve this problem that
49:14
you're working on together. So that you can do all this in a
49:18
sentence, essentially, right? And maybe it's a long sentence,
49:20
but the point is the same that you can change your emotional
49:24
resonance, to see what they're responding to. How do they
49:29
respond to being pushed back? How do they respond to being
49:31
considered how do they respond to being treated like a human
49:33
being? So it again, it goes back to this thing? It's a more
49:36
serious version that goes back to the earlier point. But what
49:41
is this where is this person when you meet them? And then
49:45
decide where to take them from there. So if they're being
49:48
highly aggressive, you can go multiple directions with that.
49:52
Do you need to push back or do you try? Do you actually be more
49:55
collaborative with that or do you just be playful? You know,
49:59
call out the tact Uh oh, wow, bully boy tactic interesting
50:02
does that normally work for you? Now that's a very brave thing to
50:04
say. But it does highlight the the strategy that they're using.
50:09
Let's say, you're really rampaging bulldozing through the
50:12
room there, you know, does that usually get results for you? And
50:14
I mean, you don't want to sound like a smartass. But you know
50:17
what I mean, you can even highlight that the tactic you're
50:21
saying you are you can even just say very calmly, you know,
50:24
you're being very aggressive, you know, is that so it usually
50:27
the successful, can you be slightly more conversational,
50:30
perhaps. Because I'd prefer that, if that would work for
50:34
you, or something like that, where you're you can you can
50:36
spotlight what's going on and bring them down and make a
50:39
suggestion, you know, there are multiple ways, again, it has to
50:42
fit you to a certain degree, but you get to experiment. But the
50:48
point is, you control your emotional, if they they're not
50:52
making you angry, they're being prejudiced, or daft or stupid in
50:57
their attitude toward you. And you're angry, you get to decide
51:01
what makes you angry, or it can make you empowered, because
51:06
they're underrating. You they're underestimating you. Right. So
51:10
are they suddenly? Are they yes, they're under evaluating you.
51:14
But what's the advantage of that? How do you turn all of
51:17
these things to your advantage? That's the question. And always
51:20
the question of where do you have choice and how you view the
51:23
thing, how you have choice and how you wish to turn up and how
51:26
you wish to respond and be in that situation, how you choose
51:30
to act, how you choose to behave. You can't, you can
51:35
control their behavior, you can influence it, you can control
51:38
you can control how you behave. And so it's always that flipping
51:42
of the power, they only have taken the power away if you let
51:46
them if you allow them too, but you can choose to take it back.
51:51
No. And it starts with a question
51:53
here. Now, but I want to I just want to want to throw out a
51:57
sorry to interrupt you. But we do need to end or just want to
52:01
also say too, I think a lot of times people are they you can in
52:07
your personal life, if somebody offends you, you can block them
52:12
and shut them out and choose to be around other people and all
52:16
those things. But when you're representing clients, in
52:20
matters, and you are there to get the resolution of some kind,
52:24
whether that's in a negotiation, a settlement, or whether that's
52:27
going to court and getting a resolution, you can't abdicate,
52:31
you can't, you can't say well, I don't have the power, you're
52:36
there to do a job and to get the job. So that's why I think it's
52:39
so important. Because in your personal life, you may be able
52:42
to avoid and that may be your strategy. And I would submit
52:46
that that is going to leave you with a less rich life, then if
52:51
you choose to, you know not do that. Because it's difficult to
52:56
find, you know, five people that are on the same page with you on
53:00
everything, right? Doesn't happen. everything right? So to
53:05
get through life, you do need to have negotiation skills,
53:08
personal or not. But when it comes to being a lawyer, it's
53:11
not really an option. If you're whatever you're doing anything,
53:14
whether you're doing transactional work, and you're
53:16
negotiating in that forum, or with or you're just negotiating
53:20
with clients, or whatever. I do think this is incredibly
53:25
necessary skill in life in general, but certainly in our
53:28
business. So I want people to be able to reach out to you if they
53:32
want to get to know more about you what you teach. Where can
53:35
they connect with you?
53:37
Well, they can go to Alan mcbride.com Quite simply. And I
53:42
also have a podcast, the Goliath dealing with Goliath podcast,
53:47
helping all the all the David's in the Goliath struggles out
53:51
there. And I also have a resource, which is a
53:56
psychological edge negotiation mini courses, an email mini
53:59
course. And you can get that at Allen MC rider comm slash mini
54:03
course. So there's on that page, you'll see there's a cheat sheet
54:06
preparation, cheat sheet and email mini course there. So
54:09
there's a few different options where you can reach out to me on
54:12
LinkedIn, hopefully, you'll have a health of my LinkedIn somehow
54:16
linked to this podcast so you can reach out and say hello from
54:19
there.
54:20
Yeah, we'll definitely include all those links in the show
54:22
notes of this podcast so you guys don't have to search for
54:24
them. They'll be there for you. Thanks so much out. I really
54:27
enjoyed this conversation a lot. As you can tell I'm very, I find
54:32
it very fascinating. And so I appreciate you bringing some
54:35
insight and expertise to help us. Thank you.
54:39
You're very welcome. Thank you. Cheers Davina.