Latest / IB Unplugged / Nobody Left Behind: Inclusion in Practice w/ Nunana Nyomi

Transcript

Nobody Left Behind: Inclusion in Practice w/ Nunana Nyomi · IB Unplugged

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For our students,
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if we get to end of that journey that we're going through,
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if we could say that we've really moved the needle as we see people pouring out
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from Ecolint and seeing the differences that they're making out in our society,
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then we know that we are on the right track
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in terms of where we want to be.
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Hi, everybody.
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Welcome to IB Unplugged, a special episode
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because Courtney and I are on the road in Geneva right now
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at the International School of Geneva at the campus de Nations.
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Today we're talking with Nunana Nyomi, who is the secondary
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principal there, and we're going to be talking a little bit about inclusion.
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Yeah, this is a great topic and Nunana is amazing,
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really bringing all of his life experiences.
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He was a boarding international student,
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kind of growing up in all these different places.
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And I think that his experiences growing up have really shaped
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the way that he approaches leadership and the way that he builds school culture.
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So for those of you interested in how we can build a little bit
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more feeling of family or how we can build this idea of like,
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nobody gets left behind, this is going to be a great episode.
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We're so glad you're here.
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Let's dive into it with Nunana Nyomi.
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So, Nunana, welcome to IB Unplugged.
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We're so glad you're here. Thanks for joining us.
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Thanks for having me. Looking forward to this.
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Absolutely. Yeah.
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We're going to talk about some cool stuff today.
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I know, and really kind of getting into this idea of togetherness,
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more than more than belonging,
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but before we get there, let's give our listeners
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a chance to get to know you a little bit.
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I understand
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you couldn't wait to go to boarding school after reading Role Dahl's book “Boy”.
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Did it live up to the hype?
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Oh, absolutely.
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I really enjoyed my boarding school experience.
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It was really a formative moment for me because, you know, at an age
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that I was, it was a time where, you know, you're entering into teenage,
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you're surrounded by all the young adults and your parents aren't there.
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Oh my gosh. Yeah.
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But it was just about the right structure.
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But as well, you know, the right level of independence
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for me to be able to grow into that sense of autonomy and adulthood,
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ultimately, lots of opportunities for leadership,
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and just to, yeah, character development.
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It's the best way to put it.
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So really enjoyed my experience.
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I work at a boarding school as well.
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I know that sometimes it's about the pranks too.
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There's that independent growth.
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Did you ever pull off a prank that would be worthy of putting in that book?
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Oh, I hate to disappoint.
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I was definitely one of the good kids, quote and quote.
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That’s what we like to see.
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One of the rule followers.
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You know, I really, you know, for me, I tried to do things,
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but very early on learned the shameful experience
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of what it feels like when we break rules or when we try different things.
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So I didn't really enjoy that.
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I once skipped study hall
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and said we were going to the library, but then we went somewhere else.
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That was the extent of it.
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We got caught and after that I was like, oh, this is way too uncomfortable.
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So I hate to disappoint, but no, I wasn't quite
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at the level of some of the stories in the “Boy” book.
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Okay. Fair enough.
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You've lived in Ghana, Kenya, Switzerland, the UK, the US
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and the Netherlands. You've done the world tour.
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Which countries food do you miss the most?
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Oh, I love food to begin with.
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So, there's lots of aspects of the cuisine and all these places I love,
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but I have to say Ghana.
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So Ghana is my cultural home.
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That's where my parents are from.
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This is what we would eat at home.
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Now I haven't been back to Ghana for several years now, getting on a decade.
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And so I think that's got a lot to do
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with my longing for Ghanaian cuisine.
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I have to give a shout out to jollof rice.
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If you know anything about West Africa, there's a huge rivalry
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about the different types of jollof and which ones are best.
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Ghana jollof is the best.
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You just need to know.
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So jollof rice,
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fufu, which is like a pounded cassava, pounded yam,
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kenkey, which is fermented cornmeal.
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So, you know, these meals I'm really looking forward to having again
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this Christmas, actually, I plan to be going to Ghana, so I'm excited
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to try all those delicacies.
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Amazing.
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It's great when you're back with family and friends, of course.
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But then also the food is one of those key things.
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It's like, oh, I'm actually home now.
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Now I'm back where I belong.
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So I understand what you're saying.
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No offense to the Netherlands, but I didn't think
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that was going to be your choice. Yeah. That's true.
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Oh, shots fired.
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You know,
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they could use to spice things up, that's for sure.
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But there are some interesting cuisine options in the Netherlands, too.
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They've been heavily influenced by the Indonesians.
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Yes.
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And that has rescued them a bit.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Your Thai article opened with a quote from Lilo and Stitch.
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In fact, it's right here on the candle as well,
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spotted during family screen time, which we'll dive deeper into later.
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But what's a film or a show that's really stuck with you lately?
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So I have to preface this by saying I have three young children,
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so watching movies is like,
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(it's a different experience now)
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a different experience
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and also the chance to get out
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doesn't really happen that often or to just have entertainment to myself.
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Yeah.
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But thankfully I did have a plane journey recently, which seems to be the time
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that I tend to catch up on movies.
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And I watched Michael, which is the biopic about Michael Jackson.
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I really like biographies, biopics, things like this, because they
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teach us a lot about the human condition,
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about the fact that anyone who's just like you and me,
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maybe with humble upbringings, is able to achieve
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greatness just through hard work and a little bit of luck as well.
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So to hear his story was interesting, but to illustrate that further
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from an educator lens, what really struck me about that movie, was
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looking at the young Michael Jackson
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and how much he just couldn't sit still.
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He would just love to fidget.
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He'd love to dance, move around.
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He was in the recording studio and being told, you know, hey, Michael,
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could you just stay still?
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You just need to record.
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And just the hyper sense of focus that he had to really perfect his craft,
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these things started to get me to think about, from an educator lens,
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I wonder if he has, or had a special educational needs.
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You know,
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maybe he had ADHD or maybe autism or both.
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And how he was able to harness those traits in himself
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to actually focus them on strengths that he had
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and changed the world through music is truly remarkable.
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And it makes me think about the students we have in our schools day in, day out.
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You know, who's the next Michael Jackson that's out there?
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What's the next talent that they might have?
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And how do we make sure that we're looking out for them, regardless
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of how much they might fidget or how much they might be challenging for us?
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How do we make sure that we take time
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to honor them and help them find that niche
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that really could be world changing?
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What Nunana is describing here reflects what researchers call
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third culture kids, a term developed by Ruth Van Reckon and David Pollack.
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culture kids, a term developed by Ruth Van Reckon and David Pollack.
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Research shows that internationally mobile children often develop remarkable
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adaptability, cross-cultural awareness and communication skills.
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At the same time, many also wrestle with a recurring question of identity
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where do I really belong?
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What's important is that this isn't simply a challenge
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for a handful of internationally mobile students.
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In many international schools,
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large numbers of students are navigating exactly these questions.
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Understanding that tension between adaptation and identity
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can help educators move beyond simply helping students fit in, and instead
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help them develop a secure sense of who they are.
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What an excellent transition into our episode today
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and what we want to be talking about.
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Because, you know, when you have individuals like that
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who maybe display differences than what we're used to,
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they can really feel othered.
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They can really feel like, oh, I don't belong here.
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This isn't my community, this isn't my home.
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And we want to talk about that,
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talk about this idea of, you know, fitting in versus belonging.
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And I guess, to start things off, I know you've described yourself as a chameleon.
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You know, obviously, Courtney mentioned you've lived in all these
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different places and experience these many different cultures.
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Somebody who adapts to nearly every place you've been.
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So when did you start questioning that identity and what it had been hiding,
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or kind of who you were with in all those different cultural backdrops?
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Yeah, it's interesting.
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In a way, I don't feel my identity is something that
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I was hiding as much as it was
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just the outcome of the experiences that I was in.
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So because I had to move around a lot,
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I was forced to have to adapt and change the settings that I was in.
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Just by virtue of being in different places,
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you have to deal with that sense of being an other,
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even in cultures that I would claim as my own.
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So if I go to Ghana, for instance, and I say, hey, I'm Ghanaian, first thing
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they're going to ask is, you know, well, do you speak any local languages?
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I don't, I'm not very fluent in my own
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local language, which is Ewe.
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And so that's definitely a marker there.
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If I go to the US,
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which is another one of my passport countries, and I say I'm American,
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then there are all these
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cultural references and social norms and things that I didn't grow up with,
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the people are going to say, well, actually, no, you're not really one of us.
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So regardless of where I ended up, I would always have to think about, okay,
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how do I adapt to that setting, knowing that people at face value,
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you know, might just pass a judgment and say, well,
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actually, no, you're not really one of us.
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And so that kind of forced that chameleon like nature.
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I would say in terms of
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coming to terms with my identity, really, my university years were pivotal.
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That was a time where I got introduced to the work of Ruth van Reken, Michael Polak.
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They did this seminal work on third Culture kids.
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I definitely highly recommend their book.
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And it was the first time that it put words
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to the experiences that I had felt,
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that sense of, okay, you know, I don't really have
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a strong sense of roots, but I do have all these other
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rich cultural experiences and adaptability
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that I've gained, that I can take pride in.
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And I also got to meet lots of other third culture kids during that time as well.
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So finding those spaces in common was really huge for me.
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And in a way, I've been able to then draw from that to the work that I do
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on a regular basis now, with a lot of other third culture kids in school.
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Yeah, because I mean, you moved to Switzerland when you were 12, right?
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And then you started going to school.
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That's obviously relevant for teaching in an international school
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in Switzerland now. How have you shaped the culture
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and the kind of ways of working in this school to reflect
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maybe some of the ways that you were feeling
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when you were in that place for these kids?
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You know,
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it's such a poetic thing for me to be here in this space.
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We are literally across the street from the office where my father worked
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when we were here in Switzerland, when I was younger.
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So every day I'm reminded, I can literally look out of my office window
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and see the same building.
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And I'm always reminded of my own beginnings
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and what it felt like coming to a new country,
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and trying to experience it for the first time
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and trying to understand what does it mean to be in Europe.
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To be, for me, the first time,
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really in a minority setting in terms of my own,
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my ethnicity compared to others, and how people treated us.
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So I remember people assuming things like, you're here because you're a refugee,
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because at the time there was an influx of refugees that were coming in,
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or other various assumptions, and then therefore,
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the connotations that that meant how they would then treat us.
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And so I'm always conscious of that
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when I think about the students that are in our school now
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experiencing Geneva, some of them coming to Geneva for the first time,
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some of them have been here for a while, and how they're navigating
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their sense of identity and how do we make space for that,
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and how do we honor all types of identities.
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Because, you know, Switzerland as a country has also had its journey.
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It's neutral.
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It's a place that welcomes lots of people traditionally,
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but it's also been a country
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that has struggled with the sense of nationalism versus
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the kind of global pool of all the different places.
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I recall being in the country at the time where we had
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election posters with a black sheep being kicked out of the country
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of Switzerland, implying this idea of anti-immigration.
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And those sentiments are still very much alive.
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So how do we then
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create a community here
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that helps students understand what their role is here within this
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kind of cosmopolitan place
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and how they can bring their own identities that they feel valued,
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regardless of
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whatever nationality, background, identity types that they're thinking
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through and exploring.
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So for me, it's a poetic experience,
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and one that I feel very much fits to my core,
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in terms of my mission and wanting to connect with these students
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and help them feel that sense of that belonging
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from which they can then become hopefully, changemakers themselves.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Is there anything specifically that you've implemented
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with the way that you either do, maybe introductions and orientations
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or kind of ways of working in the school that you feel like
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there's been a big impact?
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Yeah.
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So I think for me, one thing I would say is it's not just down to me,
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you know, to make the big differences within our community.
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And what I love about the team that we work with is
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a lot of us are coming with that lens of how do we make sure
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we create that sense of belonging, that sense of welcome.
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I think about when students arrive at our school,
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we always make sure we have this strong buddy program
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called “For You”.
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Our students come together, connect with other students
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who are just arriving to help them understand
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what is the culture of our place, let alone all the other aspects
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of understanding Switzerland and all the rest of it.
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So let's say that this group of students
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do a fantastic job of creating that sense of welcome.
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And I would say beyond that,
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it's about fostering opportunities
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for our students to also have that voice, to be able to know
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that I'm accessible, to know that if there are issues that can bring those up.
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So, for instance, we've had a long standing tradition
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before me of having an anti-discrimination committee that student led,
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and it's making sure that they know that they can come to me with challenges,
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issues, and I see myself as very much trying to create,
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try to be that snowplow, to kind of break through bureaucracy, to try to address
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and understand the challenges or issues that they may have.
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So I'll probably point to the “For You” club and then as well, just my own posture
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of trying to be, you know, accessible to students and trying to be student
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focused on the issues that we try to address at school.
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There's actually a substantial body of research
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supporting what Nunana is describing.
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John Hattie's work on visible learning consistently identifies teacher student
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relationships as one of the strongest influences on learning.
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Students are more likely to engage, persist through challenges, and take
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academic risks when they feel known and supported by adults in their school.
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What's particularly interesting is that this applies
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just as much to school leaders as it does to teachers.
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When students believe that leaders know them, listen to them, and care
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about their experiences, trust grows,
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And trust often becomes the foundation
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for both well-being and academic success.
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You brought such an important, and I think, really complex point
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of international schools.
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International schools,
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I think all across the globe, and some more than others, do have this
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like amalgamation of people who come from many different places, maybe different
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backgrounds and cultural identities and, you know, your experience there.
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But I think also, especially as we talk about teachers and
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educators in these spaces,
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so many students have that experience of assimilating
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to kind of a new, larger culture that isn't necessarily theirs.
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What can we as educators, what can teachers
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be doing to kind of be one, I guess a bit more sensitive to that,
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and two help to not necessarily have somebody lose their cultural
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background, their identity, but at the same time, this is who we are,
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this is what this place is about.
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This is a really complex tension, I think.
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How do we navigate that?
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What do teachers maybe get wrong? What do we get right?
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How can we make that work?
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Yeah, I think again, I'm very fortunate to be working with a strong team
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of teachers who are, you know, really looking out for students
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and trying to make sure that we're creating that sense of belonging
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and that acceptance.
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To do it well,
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we really have to interrogate ourselves.
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The curriculum that we're providing, what's the hidden messages
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that we're sharing?
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Who's not being represented?
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All of these things.
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And it's something where we often hear from educators, you know,
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that the social sciences will thrive at or English or things like that,
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but it isn't limited just to specific subjects.
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I see it in our maths team where they've,
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you know, decked out and decorated our space with different
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forms of how maths is being accessed by different cultures.
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And that opens up conversation so that you can say, okay, well,
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how do you do it in Japan
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when you calculate this issue versus how we do it in Russia or how we do it,
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you know, here in Europe, in Western Europe.
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And trying to compare contrast.
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Think about things like the history,
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you know, here at Ecolint, we have a series
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that had been created some years ago around decolonizing
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the maths curriculum, where teachers really talked about the origins of maths
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and how they ensure that students get that sense of understanding that it's
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not just something
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that just appeared here in the West, but actually there's a whole origin story
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that goes through the Middle East and goes through India and all kinds
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of other places that shaped the ways in which we think today.
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So it's about broadening that conversation and showing that representation,
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and it can be done,
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you know, not just within humanities type subjects, but also, you know,
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across the whole gamut.
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And also returned back
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to the question you had before,
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which is about that idea of building that sense of connection with students.
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One thing I've tried to model as well is,
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I've been a mentor within our school setting.
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So what I try to do is create some strong contacts with students.
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And a number of our teachers also act in this role as well.
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And so these create these one on one opportunities where
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we're checking in with students a few times a week,
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as well as delivering our socio emotional programing.
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And that's again creates opportunities to kind of go into identity
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and those types of topics.
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So that's been key for me.
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So I did mentoring with our year eight students.
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Ironically, 12 year olds, you know, around the same age
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where I came into Geneva myself and did that for a couple of years.
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And now I'm helping, you know, co-teaching with our international relations class,
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as well as a model UN enrichment class that I'm doing.
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Again, the model UN class is aimed at those year eight students again.
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So it's giving that opportunity again to say, let's build those connections,
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let's create that openness, so that hopefully
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you see yourself reflected within the subject matter.
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Or if you're from a more dominant culture, that you get to learn something more
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about what the world is truly about, really, that global citizenship
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that we aim for,
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really being truly represented
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rather than sometimes what
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the pitfall can be for some educators is falling into that more Western trap.
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I appreciate that a lot.
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I appreciate the, you know, scrupulous sort of valuation of the curriculum.
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What are we putting on our walls? What are we talking about?
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But I guess what I also really heard a lot of is role modeling, right?
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You've got your mentors and you get people who
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then if we are looking for people to appreciate their own identities
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and what it means to be part of this, then we are living that too,
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is what I'm taking from this.
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I also like, this is no question, just a reflection
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is something that we always, when we talk to school leaders of like,
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what do you think that you could do to be most connected to your school?
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Whatever they always talk about.
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Like how can you be really directly connected with the students?
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Like, how do you get yourself in the spaces
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where you actually have meaningful connection with students?
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And it seems like a lot of what you're saying here is like,
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you are so present directly with the students.
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And I think that's also
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seems to be shaping a lot of the way that you're running the school.
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And it's just a nice thing to see.
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Yeah, I feel it's really important.
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It's easy in this role to get pulled away,
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(exactly)
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and get into the bureaucracy and staff issues and other challenges,
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which we obviously still need to do.
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But you got to keep that connection with students as well.
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How do you balance that, though?
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Let's just kind of go into that for a moment,
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because that's what I think of when I think of, you know,
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if you're a senior leadership team or something like this at a school, you're
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often doing the bureaucratic stuff, you're not very frequently student facing.
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How are you balancing that?
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Yeah. So to me, I actually see it as
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gained time, if you think of it this way.
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Because, for instance, my being in the classroom now
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means that when I am talking to teachers about a new way in which we might
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want to do reporting or, you know,
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ways in which we want to give feedback or,
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strategies we want to implement in the classroom,
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it's a lot less pushback because
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(because you're doing it, too)
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because it's like, well, actually, yeah, I'm doing this.
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You know, we're in it together. I'm experiencing this.
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No, you don't understand my world.
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You're not dealing with the, you know, kind of the administrator over here,
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and then the teachers over here.
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So there's some game time that's there.
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And same thing with the students.
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At the end of the day, we're here to serve the students.
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That is you know, if you look at the Latin root of administration
22:25
or administrator, it's administer, to serve is what it actually means.
22:30
So we're here to serve them.
22:32
And so if we're not spending the time understanding what the issues are
22:35
that face them directly, then we have issues.
22:38
I recall in my mentor class, for example, that my best feedback
22:42
about how school was running would come from my mentor group.
22:45
Yeah, right?
22:46
They'll be candid with you.
22:47
Exactly.
22:48
They would just tell me right away.
22:49
Hey, you know, the lunch queues are really long today, you know?
22:53
Can we address that? I'm like, yeah, okay, cool.
22:56
Good to know that that's an issue that's really facing you right now.
22:59
And so that instant feedback again it's bought time.
23:02
So you can always reframe things.
23:05
It's about being judicious with your time.
23:09
But understanding that this is valuable time too, because it's going to help
23:12
in the long run
23:13
to point out issues and eliminate issues that you might take a lot longer to get to
23:17
that might blow up in your face in the meantime.
23:20
Yeah, yeah.
23:21
Because you've been prioritizing this other piece.
23:23
I got to communicate in this way, but instead let me just get involved in it.
23:27
I wanted to move into our next piece where we're talking about togetherness
23:30
as a leadership job, and you've built your thinking around
23:33
togetherness and back to the Lilo and Stitch “Ohana”
23:37
and nobody gets left behind or forgotten,
23:40
why that word instead of inclusion, which I think is one that comes up a lot
23:44
in another spaces?
23:45
So the article you're referring to that I kind of expounded on this.
23:51
A couple of years ago,
23:52
when I was starting here as principal, and I was thinking about how do I get
23:56
inclusion to make sense to my community, particularly students.
24:01
Okay? So that's where it started.
24:03
And the particular inspiration came from
24:05
just being with my own kids and watching the movie and,
24:09
you know, just seeing how often this phrase kept being repeated
24:14
and how essential it was for that family
24:17
in the film to really be together.
24:21
And so I took that inspiration to say this is actually what we need
24:26
as a way to simplify the concept of inclusion.
24:29
So, just to be clear, we are talking about inclusion.
24:33
I'm not talking about something else or something different.
24:36
Right, right.
24:37
It is still inclusion.
24:38
It's just a way to make it more accessible.
24:40
And, yeah, once I introduce the concept students definitely,
24:45
you know, really really connected with it.
24:49
And that's been a joy to watch, and really see them
24:53
kind of repeat that mantra about nobody being left behind or forgotten.
24:58
It really is a powerful way to say
25:01
how do we frame what we do,
25:03
whether you're an educator,
25:04
whether you're a student, whatever role you play in the community?
25:08
Have you made sure in your actions,
25:12
is there anyone who's been forgotten?
25:13
Is there anyone who's been left behind?
25:16
You know, just really taking that time to ask those questions
25:19
goes a long way to creating the community we want to see.
25:22
I love that framing, actually.
25:24
I really, really appreciate it because yeah, as you say,
25:26
inclusion can be a little bit less accessible.
25:29
You know, when I think about that from my educator hat on,
25:31
it's like, okay, what am I doing to remove barriers to the curriculum?
25:35
And how am I making sure that they've got equal access to,
25:38
yeah, this assessment or whatever structure it is.
25:41
And so it's easy to just think of
25:42
that almost, almost through just the lens of the curriculum.
25:46
But what I love about that idea of the togetherness and Ohana
25:49
for that matter, you know, this is our family,
25:51
you know, and as a family, nobody gets left behind kind of thing.
25:53
And I think that that definitely speaks better to all ages.
25:58
And I think it communicates a much better message too, actually.
26:04
It includes, I guess, are we making sure that things are fair for everybody?
26:08
But it's not just that. And I like that a lot.
26:11
I think that's great.
26:12
And with that I think, you know, you argue that togetherness doesn't mean
26:16
unanimous agreement.
26:17
It doesn't mean we all agree with the same thing.
26:20
We all act the same way,
26:21
you know, as principal, how do you make sure every voice is heard,
26:25
(yeah)
26:25
and still have to make sometimes the calls that people don't like?
26:30
That's living in community, right?
26:32
You have to still move forward.
26:33
We can't just spend all the time in discussion.
26:36
Right?
26:37
And it's not just about singing Kumbaya and coming together and holding hands
26:42
and saying, okay, this is, you know,
26:44
we all need to have some unanimous agreement before we can do anything.
26:48
It's impossible for communities to function that way.
26:50
So, it's about making sure
26:53
that you have processes where voices are heard.
26:57
So, you know, I think about, you know, some of the changes
27:00
that we've implemented, for example with our behavior management.
27:04
When I came in,
27:05
this was an area that was brought up that
27:07
we wanted to address and tighten up a bit on.
27:10
So we took people's feedback.
27:12
We then you know, compiled what people had to say
27:16
first, had some discussion within the staff to give everyone
27:20
the chance to share their perspectives on it,
27:23
sent out a survey as well, so that people had the chance to share
27:26
if they didn't feel comfortable raising voices,
27:29
you know, in the more interactive setting,
27:31
and just collect as much data as we could, perspectives as we could
27:35
in order to inform the process and then roll out something to say, okay,
27:40
here's what we've heard, here's the direction we're going,
27:43
and then create some feedback loops.
27:45
So we've had to revisit that a few times,
27:47
you know, through the time that I've been here
27:49
where we just checked in on here's the process, here's what we agreed to,
27:53
you know, challenges, questions.
27:55
How do we address it?
27:55
We're nowhere near perfect.
27:57
We're still making refinements.
27:59
But it's that idea of saying we're going to try
28:02
something, we're going to hear everybody else around it.
28:07
We then implement what we're doing,
28:09
and then we create some opportunities for feedback loops
28:12
to help refine the process, so people know that they're with us
28:15
every step of the way, and there's a sense of ownership within it.
28:18
There's no opportunity for someone to say, well,
28:22
I wasn't part of this. It's like, no, actually you were.
28:24
Maybe we didn't follow your desired pathway.
28:28
But we definitely heard you, you know, that's important.
28:33
What stands out here is the distinction between having a voice
28:36
and getting your way.
28:38
Fielding's 2011 research on student agency shows
28:41
that people don't need every decision to go in their favor.
28:45
What matters is whether they feel genuinely heard
28:47
and respected in the process.
28:49
Studies of effective schools
28:51
show that trust grows when leaders explain how decisions are made,
28:55
demonstrate that feedback has been considered
28:57
and remain open to refining decisions over time.
29:00
In other words, participation isn't just about collecting opinions.
29:04
It's about building a culture where people believe their perspectives matter.
29:09
I think that the idea of the feedback loops, but also acknowledging
29:13
what people have said, it's like you can't run a school
29:16
based on just, oh, we did what everyone said
29:18
because like we said before, they're not going to agree.
29:21
But I think just by saying, here's what all of you said, here's what we decided
29:26
and here's how we have the chance to evolve,
29:30
if the decision we took wasn't the best one
29:33
makes it that people don't feel like I'm filling out this survey,
29:37
but they're not going to listen to it anyway, or
29:39
like they're making this decision because they don't understand my point of view.
29:43
It's, okay,
29:45
my point of view contributed to this.
29:47
And even if they went in a different direction, there's a chance
29:51
that it might get revisited if it doesn't work.
29:54
And I think those are the really important pieces
29:56
to make it feel like you said, there is this joint ownership there.
30:00
That's the buy-in piece that I think has to be there from every different group,
30:04
you know, from your students, from your teachers, from your parents,
30:07
your board.
30:09
I think there's got to be a level of trust that says, I have shared my voice,
30:13
and I
30:14
believe that they have taken that on board and now they're going in this direction.
30:18
That wasn't my choice, but they're going in this direction.
30:20
I still trust that.
30:21
I feel like that's a fundamental piece here.
30:24
How have you guys cultivated that trust across
30:27
all these different groups so that people can agree with you here?
30:29
Yeah.
30:31
This is such a fun and dynamic community to be part of
30:34
because from my experience, our students are very, very vocal.
30:38
Our parents are very, very vocal.
30:40
I love that you're saying that this is really positive too.
30:44
As our stuff,
30:45
and I say that in a really, truly, in a positive way because you hear
30:50
right away, you know, if there's a group that hasn't been involved in the process,
30:54
(they’ll let you know)
30:56
you’ll know.
30:57
And I appreciate that because that keeps me on my toes
31:01
and makes sure that I am being held accountable
31:04
and how we are progressing together as a community.
31:08
And so, yes, we do try as much as we can
31:12
to create those opportunities to get that voice from the
31:16
different stakeholders and perspectives that we have within our community.
31:21
But yeah, I would say in the journey that I've been on,
31:23
there have also been times where people have had to let me know.
31:26
Groups have let me know and said, you know, actually,
31:29
with this particular issue, we're not particularly, we're not on board.
31:33
We didn't feel consulted or whatever have you.
31:35
And then we try to find ways to then ensure that that happens
31:39
and that we are able to then refine our processes better as we move forward.
31:44
All right, I like that.
31:45
You draw upon Ubuntu.
31:47
Now, I'd come across this phrase
31:49
a little while ago when we did one of our first episodes.
31:51
And of course, we got the chance to go to South Africa and learn a little bit more.
31:54
There was like theme of the African Education Festival then.
31:57
But the general idea that, you know,
31:58
we are human through our shared humanity, or I am because we are.
32:03
A lot of things that you're talking about here
32:04
seem to be drawing upon that too.
32:06
What does Ubuntu look like on just an ordinary school day?
32:10
Sure.
32:12
So as you said, it's the concept of I am because we are.
32:16
So it's trying to make sure that’s, it's again connected
32:19
to this concept of the, you know, nobody being left behind or forgotten,
32:24
that decisions can't be made just on an individual basis,
32:28
or, you know, as we're going through our days,
32:30
you know, we're really thinking about everyone in our community.
32:34
So another way to put it is, you know, if people are suffering,
32:37
if there's challenge in our community that we can't really be fully whole,
32:43
this is the challenge that we still have to then address.
32:46
So every day it's me waking up saying,
32:49
you know, which groups
32:52
are still feeling a challenge or an issue,
32:55
and then how do we address that.
32:57
It's having the courage to
32:58
then ask those critical questions of who's being left out in this situation,
33:02
and how do we then make sure that those people
33:04
have had a voice and spoken
33:06
into the process that we're going through.
33:08
Or acknowledging
33:09
if they haven't been included, then, you know, what were the reasons why
33:13
and how do we then address those, you know, moving forward?
33:17
And then trying to be good models for our students
33:21
as they they also go through their days around
33:25
how do they practice that sense of inclusion.
33:28
I think about the student who is maybe socially isolated
33:31
and struggling, maybe with friendships and things like that.
33:34
You know, we have,
33:35
of course, our student support groups that are looking out for these students.
33:39
And it's about, you know, hey, we've been pointed this individual,
33:43
how can we make sure that there's a trusted adult around that person?
33:46
How do we make sure that we can maybe identify a couple of students
33:49
who might be able to act as ambassadors to help support this person?
33:54
So it's about really being mindful about each and every member
33:58
of the community and helping them see that they all have value.
34:02
What I love about what you
34:03
just said is it seems to really oscillate
34:06
well, include the human experience with this systems thinking of what are the
34:12
what are the structures we have in place here that are either
34:15
allowing this person to recognize the contributions
34:18
they're making to our whole
34:19
school community, or what are the ways in which they're feeling like
34:22
I'm not part of this community itself.
34:24
And so I think maybe that's a dynamic, or maybe
34:27
is that something that you feel in principal
34:30
or in administration, as you mentioned before, to serve others,
34:33
it's that dynamic of am I, one, connecting with people, but two,
34:37
thinking about the specific systems and structures
34:40
and how we can expand on these or be more dynamic
34:42
to them to make them work for everybody here?
34:43
Absolutely.
34:46
At the end of the day, inclusion work is systemic work.
34:50
You know, that's what we're talking about with systems.
34:52
How do we then, you know, harness those to make a difference.
34:56
If it's just on the kind of feel good side, it's very easy to make these
35:00
kind of one shot changes or,
35:04
you know, things that maybe help one person,
35:06
but you're not really looking at it from a systemic lens.
35:09
So for us, it's really important to examine our structures and what we do.
35:14
You know, like a lot of schools, we practice
35:16
this whole multi-tiered system of support kind of practice.
35:21
So we have a student support group that comes together
35:24
that really goes through all the students in the specific year group,
35:27
and it's filled with pastoral staff that look after the year group as well as,
35:33
you know, our system principals.
35:35
Yeah.
35:36
(coordinators)
35:37
coordinators, others, you know, exactly learning support others
35:39
so that we can really then hone in on those specific students
35:43
and bring up the issues.
35:45
And what I love is we do have quite a multicultural,
35:50
you know, set of perspectives within those groups as well, which really helps.
35:55
I remember situation where because students were being looked at by
35:59
maybe by most of the group through a certain lens,
36:03
everyone maybe missed a certain aspect, and this person
36:06
was able to pipe up and say, well, wait a second.
36:09
Have you noticed that most people of this particular group,
36:13
we quickly assume that they need, you know, a certain type of learning support?
36:17
Yeah.
36:18
And just asking that critical question of like,
36:21
why is it that we went straight to that,
36:23
you know, with this group, with another group, we don't go there?
36:26
Yeah.
36:27
And then that enriches the discussion for all of us in terms of checking
36:31
where our biases might be
36:33
and making sure that as we're doing these systems approaches, we're not
36:36
creating systems of themselves that become systems of oppression,
36:40
but actually are systems of empowerment for everyone.
36:43
I love that.
36:46
You're touching in hidden curriculum kind of ideas here.
36:49
And there's reason it's called hidden.
36:50
Even the people with the best intentions
36:52
don’t realize the things that they might be creating here.
36:54
And exactly as you say, you need those people in the room
36:57
who are going to have
36:58
a different style of thinking,
36:59
that are going to approach this from a different way,
37:01
are going to look at it critically and notice that stuff.
37:03
I've noticed that we talk about this group of people this way.
37:06
Have we all noticed that as well?
37:08
That's so powerful.
37:11
I think that we've done some really great work
37:13
here on the kind of full school side.
37:15
And then I love that you also are still teaching in the classroom, too.
37:18
It’s international relations, you said? Yes.
37:21
So I want to talk a bit more about what's happening inside of the classrooms
37:24
at the school.
37:24
And kind of one of these systems is
37:27
the organizing of who goes into which classes.
37:31
And one of the things that you talked about is kind of
37:34
the bottom set of students and how sometimes we can then,
37:39
like you were saying before, make assumptions about the group or kind
37:42
of set themselves into a certain track by being that bottom set.
37:46
And I think in the IB one obvious space is like, who goes into HL,
37:51
who goes into SL for the different classes,
37:53
and how do you even have those conversations around it and how,
37:57
I mean, from your perspective,
37:58
how do you make sure that we don't set those kids up to be
38:02
oh, I'm a bottom set kid kind of thing, or however it is?
38:06
Yeah.
38:06
It's about belief is the key.
38:10
You have to show that level of belief in students and the potential.
38:14
And we should never lose that, regardless of how student might be placed.
38:18
It's important for me to note. I wrote this article a couple of years ago.
38:22
Yeah, yeah.
38:23
And I've had some experiences since then.
38:25
And again, the good thing about it is, you know, being in a rich community
38:29
where you get to learn perspectives and as literature
38:33
comes out, it challenges your thinking in many different ways.
38:36
I would say I'm very much a social constructivist kind of end of things.
38:40
If you're asking my educational kind of inspirations,
38:44
you know, the duties of the world, or Vygotsky or,
38:50
you know, Paulo Freire or the
38:52
people like that, who really believed in this idea of democratized learning.
38:56
Yeah.
38:57
So with that comes, you know,
39:00
mixing groups together,
39:03
and that way you create that sense of, you know, if there are late bloomers,
39:07
that opportunity for students to be inspired by what other students
39:10
are doing, to be able to then, you know, attain much,
39:14
you know, much more than what perhaps they might be at today,
39:19
or for a talented student to actually lend their talents
39:23
to help support,
39:24
you know, which actually helps them reinforce their own learning,
39:27
because they're teaching and growing as well within that.
39:30
There's some benefits to that.
39:32
At the same time, there's also lots of literature out there to that's
39:35
coming out around certain subjects, where you can see
39:38
the benefits of grouping students based on certain levels of attainment.
39:42
Maths being an example of that was recent study
39:45
from UCL that addressed this, for example.
39:48
And so we take a fairly mixed approach here at our school.
39:52
Generally in the lower years, the middle year program,
39:55
in most of our classes, tend to be more of a mixed access,
39:59
maths in the last couple of years of the middle year program.
40:02
We do have more of a kind of an extended
40:06
class, as well as more of a standard level class,
40:10
depending on where the students might be.
40:13
And we're also
40:13
experimenting a bit with adding some extra periods in our
40:18
year nine class as well, to do some more specialized and targeted
40:21
learning that's going to really support students where they are.
40:25
And so those things are really important too, I want to acknowledge that.
40:30
But to get to your question about, you know,
40:32
how do we then approach that
40:34
when we get to the diploma years or a career related program,
40:37
when you're taking these subjects where they say
40:40
to you, okay, this is a high level, this is standard level, or
40:43
why do you want to choose this subject versus not that subject?
40:47
We certainly like a lot of schools.
40:49
We source our teachers.
40:51
We have them give advice to students around
40:54
what would be recommended pathways based upon
40:58
what they've been achieving so far.
41:00
And that's important.
41:01
It's important to give students the opportunity to make
41:04
informed decisions about which direction they might want to go in.
41:08
That being said, one thing we pride ourselves on is
41:11
we are actually quite open access in terms of students
41:15
accessing the type of curriculum that they feel they're ready for.
41:19
So we have strong, you know, really good conversations
41:23
with our guidance team, with teachers
41:27
and ultimately then having those conversations with the families,
41:32
where the family really is in the driver's seat,
41:34
you know, they are going to say, okay, you know what?
41:36
We've heard all the different perspectives,
41:38
and we still feel our child needs to be in the higher level.
41:41
or the child says, I really believe I can do this.
41:46
Then it's that belief that I started with, with my response to this question,
41:50
we have to show that level of belief in them and say, okay,
41:54
you said you want to do this.
41:55
We are going to give you a shot.
41:57
Yeah.
41:57
And, we found for our students,
42:01
if you look at our outcomes, we're doing really well.
42:05
If you look at, you know,
42:06
IB results, comparing them to the world average, you know, comparing them,
42:10
you know, to most metrics, we are certainly leading the way.
42:15
And it shows, how much can be achieved when you put that belief behind students.
42:21
And also it says a lot about our educators and how much we invest in those students
42:26
in terms of supporting them along the way
42:29
towards that path of success.
42:31
So I think it's about that balance.
42:34
It's not just saying, I've looked at you and I've passed judgment on you.
42:38
You are not worthy of whatever class.
42:41
But actually this is an informed decision.
42:43
This is what the statistics are telling us.
42:46
You tell us what you're experiencing, and then together,
42:49
we'll find a way forward to support you on your path.
42:52
Does that resonate with your school?
42:55
Yeah, to a certain extent, yes.
42:56
I mean, what I'm hearing a lot of
42:58
is you're focusing in on the student trying to draw out
43:01
their specific strengths and allow them to have some choice
43:04
and have some ownership here as well.
43:06
And as I was listening to you there, I'm thinking,
43:09
I think most educators want to believe in students.
43:12
And there are some, yes, who would say, well,
43:13
if you don't get this grade, you can't get into my course kind of thing.
43:15
And there's a little bit of that restriction.
43:17
But, you know, I think in general we want to try to draw the best
43:20
from students as well.
43:21
Now we did an episode,
43:25
I think in our first season, about the Ecolint learner passport.
43:28
And I know this is what you've got going on here too.
43:30
And what I love about that
43:32
is that it really allows students to highlight their specific strengths,
43:35
the things that they're really great at and give some verification on it too,
43:38
of course, and, and allows it to be a substantial thing
43:41
more than maybe a reflection portfolio or something like this.
43:45
You know, as you mentioned just a moment ago, kids are succeeding.
43:47
They're doing really well by all these different metrics.
43:51
Help me unpack that a little bit.
43:52
Is that mainly due to belief in the student?
43:55
Is that because they've also got this learner passport
43:58
that allows them to show their strengths and have those recognized?
44:01
Is it because of the rigor or the international mindedness idea of the
44:05
IB diploma program itself, or career related program for that matter?
44:09
Where's that mix there?
44:10
Because I think a lot of schools want to be in that position.
44:13
We want to say, hey, all right, we trust you.
44:15
You say you can do these courses, show us.
44:19
And then maybe we're unable to close that next gap.
44:23
What's going on here?
44:24
Yeah, it's obviously a multitude of factors.
44:28
And you've touched on a couple of interesting example that I'll get to.
44:32
But perhaps I'll start with just kind of our support
44:36
and what teachers are doing day in day out,
44:40
as well as our learning support teams to come around students.
44:44
It's been quite remarkable if I look at, you know,
44:48
the level of students, the numbers, if you look at our some of our statistics
44:52
around students who are looking for testing accommodations,
44:55
who qualify for those, within this campus.
45:01
It’s on the higher end,
45:02
I would say, you know, easily
45:04
way more than a third of our students are in that boat.
45:09
And so what that means then, is if we just infer
45:13
is that our teachers then are having to do a lot of differentiation,
45:18
a lot of trying to ensure that students are accessing content
45:21
based upon, you know, the qualities that they're bringing into the classroom.
45:26
As well as, you know, with our learning support teams as well,
45:29
surrounding those students,
45:32
whether it's executive functioning support,
45:34
which if you know anything about the IB diploma
45:37
and trying to get through that, there's going to be a lot of executive functions.
45:44
Exactly.
45:44
A lot of those skills that need to be put into place.
45:47
Certainly the IB itself, with its ATL’s that it tries to embed,
45:52
that encourages educators to embed in the curriculum,
45:55
goes a long way towards giving the students that the skills
45:58
that they need in terms of critical thinking and research skills
46:01
and communication skills and whatnot, that they need to be successful.
46:04
So certainly the IB curriculum itself is useful.
46:08
And then,
46:09
the learner passport for us really adds another dimension,
46:14
which is seeing the student as a whole person.
46:17
Not just what they do in the classroom, which is certainly part of what we value
46:20
in the Learner passport, but also
46:24
looking at them as sports players,
46:26
as musicians, as whatever else they might be engaging with
46:30
and how that's going towards developing their own character.
46:35
It's really looking at this concept of competence based education.
46:40
It was done through a study, research that was done with Unesco to identify
46:45
specific competencies, things like transdisciplinarity, multiliteracies,
46:51
you know, interacting with diverse tools, interacting with the self,
46:54
interacting with others.
46:56
You know, these skills we know are going to be essential,
46:59
especially now with our changing world, everything rapidly advancing around AI.
47:05
With the polarization, with a
47:06
variety of different challenges that we have in our world.
47:09
These competencies are going to be really essential.
47:12
And so we want to tell a different story with our students,
47:16
not just the story of what's happening in the classroom, but really
47:19
who they are as full human beings.
47:21
And that's what the Learner Passport truly enables, is
47:25
that recognition of who the student is
47:29
and then being able to then package that to whether it's a university
47:33
career or whatever it might be, to say, this is what makes up
47:36
me as an individual and the contributions I can make to society.
47:40
And that's the piece that matters a ton as well.
47:43
And that's, you know, I'm enjoying a conversation so much.
47:47
And one of the main reasons is we haven't mentioned AI really.
47:49
You know,
47:52
but the reason I bring it up now is just because
47:56
the way we've spoken about AI is because it's been threatening
47:59
what we've identified as meaningful in education multiple times.
48:02
And I don't mean it from like,
48:04
this is what we think is the only thing that matters.
48:06
But often whatever we're assessing tends to be the thing that we talk about.
48:09
And we know that many of the ways that we're assessing
48:11
learning is under threat through AI.
48:13
And therefore we see this as like a what are we going to do with this?
48:16
But what I love about the learner passport and this piece here
48:20
and what you just mentioned there, the recognition of it,
48:22
it's putting weight behind
48:26
these executive functioning, these ideas that we want
48:29
to be drawing out of students and that they now see this is
48:33
measured in whatever way that it is.
48:35
It's recognized.
48:36
It says something about me more than this particular score.
48:40
And I'm wondering I think that's actually connects
48:42
then back to what you're talking about with your students
48:44
succeeding so well, is because now
48:46
they're starting to see where not everything comes down to my point,
48:50
it doesn't come down to the total scores that I get at the end of this.
48:53
Lots of other pieces of who I am as a person are being recognized,
48:57
are being highlighted, and therefore I'm allowed to,
49:02
you know, enjoy those strengths as opposed to constantly worrying about,
49:06
am I earning my value in this community by the points that I've given to it?
49:11
No, I'll definitely say, or echo, exactly,
49:14
you know what you're talking about here.
49:17
At the end of the day,
49:19
we need to be going beyond points.
49:22
We have to be thinking about what is the actual impact that you can make.
49:27
We have so many issues that we're trying to address in our world today,
49:31
and we have such a gift in education to have these young people in front of us.
49:35
Yeah.
49:37
You know, let's not waste that on the points and on, you know,
49:42
kind of rote learning, even though I know the IB goes beyond that,
49:47
but really spend
49:49
more time on that character development and,
49:52
you know, being able to prepare them to meet those challenges of today.
49:56
No, I think that that makes perfect sense.
49:57
And I know that Ecolint’s strategic plan really puts human
50:01
flourishing at the center.
50:04
And I think that the learner passport is a great example
50:07
of how you can really put the systems in place for that.
50:10
And I'm wondering for you, a few years from now, if you're looking ahead,
50:14
what would be other kind of elements that are core for success for your school?
50:19
It's probably just, you know, echoing a little bit of what we just discussed.
50:25
First and foremost,
50:26
we want to make sure that our students are really
50:30
being those change makers, those difference makers within our world.
50:34
We talk about here educating global citizens, with the courage and capacity,
50:39
to create a better tomorrow together.
50:42
That's really our mission statement ultimately.
50:46
And so that's what we are
50:50
focused on day in, day out
50:53
and in the strategic initiative that we're working towards,
50:58
our goal is when we get to
51:01
the horizon that we hope to see, that we will see
51:04
that our students are equipped with the right level of competencies
51:10
to be able to address the challenges that we see.
51:14
So, you know, whether that might be.
51:18
Seeing AI,
51:19
to mention it again, not just as a negative, but actually
51:23
how do we harness what we're seeing and how do we look at it ethically?
51:29
We know that
51:29
what's happening in that world, it's going to require us to think critically.
51:33
It's going to have to require us to think creatively, in order
51:39
to harness the technologies that we're seeing.
51:41
And also think ethically about the world that we want to build.
51:45
So it's going to be about that.
51:47
It's going to be tackling the polarization that we're seeing
51:50
more and more in our world.
51:52
It's about climate change and trying to address the issues of sustainability.
51:58
So, for our students, if we get to the end of that journey
52:01
that we're going through, if we could say that we've really moved
52:04
the needle, as we see people pouring out from Ecolint
52:07
and seeing the differences that they're making out in our society,
52:11
that we know that we are on the right track,
52:15
in terms of where we want to be.
52:18
Of course, that's all underpinned through
52:21
this whole concept of inclusion that we've been talking about today.
52:25
And so if we can create a community here, where they're seeing that
52:30
we're modeling that for them, there's only gain to be found in our world.
52:35
Nunana, I'm so inspired by our conversation right now.
52:38
There's so many things that I'm taking from this, whether it's the,
52:42
you know, being involved in the classroom as well, being the mentor as well as,
52:46
you know, observing different systems, how we can create
52:49
Ubuntu and Ohana kind of philosophy in our schools itself.
52:53
So I know that this is one I'm going to go back
52:56
and listen to a few times just for that constant inspiration.
52:59
But I'm wondering maybe as we kind of come to a close,
53:03
is there one idea or something that you feel like if educational leaders out there
53:08
forget everything we've said so far, what would be the one thing
53:12
you really hope that they leave with?
53:14
For me, as somebody who came into this work
53:17
as a practitioner around inclusion,
53:22
one of the key pieces is to make inclusion
53:25
a central aspect of one's decision making framework.
53:31
So we need to have a framework where you are thinking about
53:37
who is being left out when we make decisions.
53:41
Whose voices aren't being heard.
53:45
Where are resources being deployed and why
53:48
and where are they not.
53:50
And making sure for each and every decision that we're making
53:54
those intentionally
53:57
taking those moments to pause.
53:59
That goes for any leader,
54:01
that goes for any educator if you're planning your curriculum,
54:05
even goes for our students and how they engage with each other.
54:10
So in a way, it's bringing us full circle to some of the things
54:13
I talked about in the article,
54:16
that idea of nobody being left behind or forgotten.
54:20
If we start there in how we make our decisions,
54:25
we will go much further.
54:27
Nunana, thank you.
54:28
Thanks for taking the time to chat with us. Thanks for sharing these perspectives.
54:30
It's super inspiring work that you're doing here.
54:32
And obviously the proof is with students and the families
54:36
that are coming through this place. So congratulations
54:38
on doing some great stuff and thanks for sharing with us.
54:40
Thank you John. Thank you Courtney.
54:42
Thank you for the work that you do and amplifying voices.
54:45
Wishing you all the best.
54:50
All right.
54:50
I can talk to Nunana all day.
54:52
Same. I was gonna say I was not ready for that conversation to end.
54:55
Yeah.
54:56
He obviously brings so much compassion and so much care to what he does.
54:59
I think his history and his experiences
55:02
that he's had throughout his life obviously inform a lot of this.
55:05
But you really, genuinely got this impression of
55:08
we worked together here to make sure that young people succeed
55:11
and not just young people, but that everybody in that community
55:13
feels like I belong here.
55:15
This is who I am, and this is a part of what I can do
55:18
to help improve the lives of others around me as well. Yeah.
55:21
And I think that's something that always stands out for me with leaders that I have
55:24
a lot of respect for is how involved they are on every level of their school.
55:29
And I think that it came out so clear that he is so ingrained
55:34
in the school culture
55:35
by being so ingrained in the lives of the students, the fact that he's still
55:38
mentoring students and having these direct connections, he's still in the classroom
55:42
and doing all of that with a lot of intentionality,
55:45
not just because you have to, but because I want to,
55:47
to make sure I really have a pulse on what's happening at the school.
55:51
Yeah, yeah.
55:52
I think he exemplifies so much what we're hoping for within educational leadership.
55:56
And yeah, I just really appreciate getting the chance to speak with him.
55:59
So we really hope you enjoyed the episode as well.
56:02
And we look forward to seeing you at another episode of IB Unplugged.
56:06
IB Unplugged is a Kognity podcast for IBDP educators,
56:10
helping you teach with more confidence, creativity, and joy.
56:14
Our show is hosted by Courtney Marline and John Patton
56:17
and produced by Katilina Gaffney, edited by Damir Zvekanov,
56:20
and supported by Karla Cetina.
56:22
If you have a topic or question for us to explore, please reach out
56:26
on kognity.com/ibunplugged.
56:29
See you next time.