Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Talks to lovely Jim Allenby about his choice of Tomb of the Cybermen (1/4)

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Talks to lovely Jim Allenby about his choice of Tomb of the Cybermen (1/4) · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

0:23
None. A hamster with a blunt penlight
0:35
for doing quicker, quicker, quicker Bing Bong.
0:43
Hello, it's Joe here, about six months after this story was
0:48
recorded. Just to let you know that the
0:51
fabulous Jim Allenby who appears in this episode has recently
0:56
started his own podcast called What's In the Box.
0:59
Now that the first episode that hadn't been recorded when we
1:03
recorded to him in the Side Men. So this is just a recommendation
1:07
to go and check out Jim's fabulous new podcast What's In
1:11
the Box. Many of you would say.
1:15
Why do we need any more Doctor Who podcast?
1:17
There's not enough listening time and I've got enough in on
1:20
my podcast catches as it is. You listen to Jim in this
1:24
recording, he's fabulous. Go check him out.
1:27
Glorious. Welcome back to our hamster with
1:30
a Blump Penknife, the Doctor Who commentary podcast.
1:35
You are not having deja vu, even though I have already released
1:40
two of the Cybermen before. But that was just me banging
1:45
onto myself and who the fuck wants to listen to that?
1:48
Today I'm here with a superstar. Mr. Jim Allenby, How you doing?
1:53
Hi Joe. I am absolutely fine today Jim.
1:58
I mean, no pressure or anything, but you've chosen an absolute
2:01
stone cold classic to get your teeth into for your second hand
2:04
style. Yeah, absolutely.
2:07
It's it's one of my favourites. I've been there since I was.
2:11
Very little boy. Nine years old, I think 10-9 or
2:16
ten years old when I first saw this about 10 years ago, then,
2:20
yeah. I've just turned 41.
2:24
So fabulous. What you want?
2:28
How much do you feel? Thank you very much, 35.
2:32
Oh, you can stay. I'm 43.
2:36
Well, look, we're flowing, already recorded.
2:38
We're getting off a. Good start.
2:39
Oh, excuse me. So, Tomb of the Cybermen, I'm
2:47
going to ask you immediately, before we even get on to the
2:51
Cybermen, about your recent appearance on another podcast.
2:56
I've noticed there's a bit of a trend going on here.
2:58
You know, people come on to have some blood, pen enough, then
2:59
start hauling themselves out on every other podcast going what?
3:04
What? What were you on?
3:05
How was it? I was on Dave Rennie, the
3:09
fabulous Dave Rennie's A Kettle and a piece of string, doing the
3:14
wonderful Peter Capaldi series. 10 story.
3:17
Knock knock, David Touché. Yes, David Suchet.
3:23
A haunted house. Haunted house.
3:24
Not really a haunted house, but a house full of spooky things
3:28
and lots of Beatles and wood and tons of Pearl Mackie.
3:34
I mean, you can't really go wrong.
3:36
No, absolutely not. It's one of my favourites from
3:39
Steerers 10 and it's also I think it's one of those stories
3:44
that you could show a non fan. To try and hook them in, which I
3:48
did just recently. So what you showed showed them
3:51
not knock. Yeah, showed them Knock knock.
3:54
Did they listen to they watch more afterwards?
3:57
They wanted to watch more, so I watched Blink with them.
4:01
Oh, come on now. You're going for, like, absolute
4:04
classics, OK? And then you're going to show
4:06
them, slink them all. No, no, we we we then went to
4:10
Rose and we've gone from Rose onwards.
4:13
So, so yeah, yeah, I see that though I can see why that would
4:18
get there. It is like a nice stand alone,
4:20
isn't it? Horror troops.
4:23
Fun characters. And then burping wheelie bin.
4:28
Yeah, yeah. And lovely Dave Rennie.
4:32
He is the most unassuming man. I just loved going on to his
4:38
pocket. I mean, I was a bit as you can
4:40
imagine, I I kept going off on all these side tangents.
4:43
He's just there going no, no, off you go.
4:45
Go on. You did, Chris.
4:48
Did you do Christmas Invasion? Yeah, with Nathan when he was
4:51
here. Yeah.
4:52
Of course, and but he just comes like harm before these facts.
4:58
I know I was, I was, I was sat there and he was just sparring
5:04
off facts to me. I was like, wow, the the the
5:06
kind of. The detail that he goes into of
5:11
digging up, digging up this information about each episode
5:14
is amazing. It's it's insane.
5:17
Don't you expect any of that bibliographical information with
5:20
me? All right, I'll just dig it.
5:21
I'll just make it up. I want to say, when was the
5:30
first time that you saw Tomb of the Assignment and did you buy
5:34
it from Woolworths? I did well, or rather my dad did
5:40
because we I was. I was very lucky as a child.
5:45
My my dad would buy each video release as it came out because
5:49
he was a fan. He'd grown up watching the show
5:51
in the 60s. He was a little and a little boy
5:54
in the 60s. So he's, he's seen Marco Polo.
5:58
He has. Yeah, he's told me about what he
6:01
remembers from it before. So I know, I know, I know how to
6:07
basically hate your dad without even meeting him.
6:10
Is that where your love for Doctor Who came from then?
6:13
Yeah, yeah, it was my dad's. Yeah, he he's got a lot to
6:15
answer for, isn't he? Oh yeah.
6:19
He has he Yeah. So we we I I grew up with.
6:24
Like Doctor Who and the Daleks. The Peter Cushing film and
6:26
Daleks and Page on Earth on video, Death to the Daleks and
6:30
Day of the Daleks. You know, you kind of you know
6:33
they were they were my kind of intro into Doctor Who.
6:36
But I also grew up watching the McCoy years as well.
6:42
So I you know, I remember I think my very first memory of
6:46
Doctor Who is probably Mel spinning around in the.
6:51
Bubble trap in time in the round.
6:53
What a great first memory to have I.
6:56
Know and then so yeah, he he would buy the he would buy the
7:00
videos each each each month that they were released.
7:04
And so it would have been was it early 92.
7:07
I've actually written it down May 92 it was released.
7:11
So I just turned 10. So you're telling me?
7:17
Hang on a minute. Not only did your dad introduce,
7:18
but he was also funding your Doctor Who experience.
7:21
Oh yeah. Oh yeah, I had to save up my
7:23
bloody pocket money or I hit the money.
7:28
Oh man, you have their experience.
7:30
Oh, he he he would buy, he would buy them each week.
7:33
And they were, of course, they were his.
7:35
But when when I was old enough, he kind of let me have them.
7:41
So yeah. And then the DVDs came out and
7:44
it was like, well, what do we do with them now?
7:46
So and do you get the Blu rays as well?
7:48
Have you got? Have you upgraded?
7:50
I do. I've been picking up a few of
7:54
the Blu-ray sets from I believe it's called Cex, but I keep
8:01
calling it the sex shop, which people tell me I can't call it,
8:04
but it's the best shop in my town, the sex shop.
8:09
So I've been picking up. I've been picking up picking
8:11
them up cheap. There, but if there's any any of
8:15
my favorite seasons being released, I will instantly, you
8:20
know, put them on pre-order. I saw you being a contrary
8:24
bugger the other day, asking people on Twitter which set
8:27
should I get? And when there was a consensus,
8:29
you went with the other set. Yeah, but I've.
8:33
I've got a confession to make. So I I I got season.
8:37
What? What was it?
8:37
I got season 19. So it's between season 19 and
8:40
season. 10 And I went back. What were you thinking?
8:45
I. Know, I know, I know.
8:47
I got season 19. However, I went back the next
8:51
week and bought season. I'll tell you what it could It
8:57
takes you just months to get through those extra features.
9:00
It does. It does.
9:01
I've been trying. I've been trying to start Season
9:03
10 this, this past week, but it's just finding the time to to
9:08
get through it all. It took a month to get through.
9:10
Season 2 when that came out. So yeah, it's there's a hell of
9:16
a lot of stuff on them. I was so happy when season two
9:20
came out, when they took the punt to do a black and white
9:24
season. So now we absolutely need some
9:27
Trouton. We do.
9:29
I think they'll probably go for six because that's that, you
9:32
know, so many existing episodes. But boy, could you imagine
9:36
watching two of the sidemen in HD.
9:40
Yeah I I mean I've always oh I know and I've always said to him
9:47
I said well said to myself said said to everybody my favorite
9:50
era is the is the black and white era don't know what it is
9:53
about it it feels very it feels very warm to me There's I get a
10:01
lot of maybe it's because. I saw a lot of the stories on
10:05
video as I was growing up. I don't know, but it's this, and
10:08
I think maybe because a lot of it is missing as well, there's
10:12
something quite magical about it all.
10:15
I just, I can keep revisiting these the Hartnell and Trout
10:19
stories over and over again. And I think maybe because you
10:23
know there's there's so variance, there's this, this
10:26
each season is so different. Yeah, I would.
10:31
So I've always said I will get the, the, the Blu rays of the
10:34
the black and white stuff. Absolutely I will.
10:38
Yeah, I mean, I'll have any of them, but I I'm particularly
10:42
hungry for those ones. But I'm doing AQ and A on the
10:44
60s very soon. I'll put out a Twitter thread
10:46
and bugger me if I didn't get like 50 questions on the 60s.
10:50
I'm like, I didn't think I'll get anyone asking questions
10:52
about this. But apparently, you know, in
10:54
fact the more of these I do because the 60s are the hamster
10:58
ones that have kind of are sort of going last.
11:02
But the more I'm realising there is massive love for Hartnall and
11:05
Trouten out there, and with good reason.
11:09
Oh, absolutely, Absolutely. Well, before we skip into
11:12
episode one, I've got a big question for you.
11:16
OK. Because I think the sort of big
11:21
discussion point around whom the Cybermen is, it was missing.
11:24
It came back, was it a disappointment or why was it a
11:31
disappointment for some people? OK, so when two of the Cybermen
11:37
came out, I wasn't. I wasn't old enough, really, to
11:42
know what a missing story was. So when I read the Doctor Who
11:51
Magazine where it said Tomb of the Cybermen has been found, I
11:55
was like, oh, OK was it, was it missing, You know, because I
11:58
didn't. I I didn't.
12:00
I was with no Internet back in those days.
12:02
So you kind of. And I was only just getting into
12:05
the kind of the fandom side of it.
12:07
Before that, it had been. You know videos that I had and
12:10
everything and then I started getting DWM around about that
12:14
time. So I didn't really have any idea
12:16
of there being any stories that that that were missing.
12:22
So it never felt like a a missing story to me.
12:29
I I I kind of got a bit of an inkling of.
12:34
Of it, of it being a missing story.
12:35
When I think a year later, they released the they released the
12:38
soundtrack narrated by Jon Pertwee, which my friend had.
12:43
I had the video, he had the soundtrack and I remember
12:45
listening, listening to it in the in the car, going to
12:49
somewhere. I can't remember where we're
12:50
going now. But it was kind of it was.
12:53
I suppose it was my first opening to finding out about the
12:57
missing stories. I don't know if I remember
13:02
reading. Anything negative about it at
13:05
the time, about people being disappointed in it, coming back,
13:11
not coming back, but disappointed in in in in the the
13:15
story after it had been seen, I don't know.
13:17
So it's always, it's always perplexed me a little bit
13:22
because I've never experienced it being missing.
13:26
It's always been there. I I mean, I I read a lot of.
13:30
Sort of fan opinion in the 90s. And yeah, there was a a big wave
13:39
of like, oh you know, it's all built up to be this all
13:41
conquering classic. And sometimes I do wonder, you
13:44
know, people are just being fucking contrary, you know,
13:47
because clearly this is good. Like, it is beautifully
13:52
designed. The the direction is very
13:54
strong. It's Trout and Heinz and Deborah
13:57
Watling, You know, it's got fun characters in it.
13:59
The Simon are at their best. Clearly this is a strong Doctor
14:02
Who story and I think some fans just like to stir the pot a bit,
14:06
you know? Yeah, I think so.
14:09
I don't know. You know.
14:10
I mean, whenever I watch it, I just look at it and I think,
14:13
yeah, you can see you, you can see.
14:16
It's a 60s Doctor Who story. It is a 60s Doctor Who story,
14:20
but I don't know, there's something very.
14:23
Filmic about it as well. It feels, you know, from right
14:27
from the start. It feels very big and I think
14:33
you know the the sets as well. I don't think you because I
14:37
think they filmed it in Lime Grove, didn't they?
14:40
The, the, the tiny studio. But I never, I never get the
14:43
sense of it being filmed in a in a in a small studio.
14:47
It always seems to be a big story for me.
14:50
I think it's the perfect length. I think it's I think there's a
14:54
few stories that possibly could do with losing some episodes So
14:59
two of the Cybermen is is is the is the perfect length really.
15:04
I just yeah I've it's you know it's got it's got a few.
15:09
You know you can see wires and splits in Cybermen's suits and
15:14
you know and you look at you look at any of those sort of
15:17
prestige stories from the 60s. You know the crusade's got
15:21
blackface in it. You know the games is 10
15:25
episodes long. You know, they can clearly be
15:28
probably about four episodes shorter, but there's there's
15:30
deficiencies in all of them. But well, I'll see what.
15:34
Look, should we go in and watch it, because we've already talked
15:36
about this for 10 minutes. You know, we have.
15:37
We have you get myself queued up, actually.
15:42
Oh oh, my word. There's so much film in the 1st
15:45
10 minutes. I mean, the whole thing looks
15:47
like a movie for 10 minutes. Oh no.
15:50
The TARDIS set on film. Oh, it's really sounds echoey,
15:54
doesn't it? It's like it's like a vast
15:56
space. Feels so different, doesn't it?
15:59
Then you I'm going to press play and then we'll keep it all.
16:02
Right. I knew we'd have lots to say.
16:04
Oh, go on then. Count this in.
16:07
OK, so in 54321 2. Off we go.
16:15
I think it's now a lot of people have a lot of things to say
16:19
about Morris Barry in the documentary that's on the DVDI.
16:22
Don't know if you watched it, but I watched it tonight before
16:26
we did the recording. But I think that sort of sense
16:30
of scale, that vastness to the story, a lot of it comes down to
16:34
Morris Barry and how he shoots those sets.
16:36
Yeah, I mean you never, I mean you kind of you look at the the
16:42
model shots of the two and. Maybe it's because it's so
16:47
ingrained into my memory from when I was a child, but I never
16:50
see it as a model. I always see it as something
16:52
that's that's actually there, you know?
16:55
And I just, yeah, I the only bit that makes me laugh is is when
17:00
someone's clearly got like an aerosol can and they're spraying
17:03
the snow and then they've done it because you can sort of see a
17:06
spray pattern that you do with an aerosol.
17:10
It's funny. Oh OK, well, we cannot possibly
17:13
go into the story without talking about the marvellous
17:16
Patrick Trouten illuminating Victoria about the TARDIS here.
17:22
Isn't he fantastic? Oh, he's amazing.
17:25
And I think, you know with each new discovery of stories he's,
17:31
you know, he just, he seems to climb higher and higher in
17:34
people's rankings. I think he's, I think he's one
17:39
of those. The doctors that you have to see
17:43
and I think as you know the the animations are fantastic but you
17:48
can't fully capture trout and you know you can't.
17:53
The little things that you don't that you you're probably not
17:56
seeing. You know, I remember the
17:59
watching Enemy of the World and his.
18:03
Reactions. He's kind of the way he was
18:07
flattered by Astrid in that story.
18:10
He's flirting like mad for in episode one, isn't he He?
18:13
Is he is and you just you would you know you know you have no
18:17
idea getting that on on on all audio and you that wouldn't have
18:21
been translated in animation. So you know you just think about
18:24
what else of of of Troutons. You know four families are
18:28
coming around when he had now ten families that he had really
18:32
Patrick Trown and you watch him flirting with her and old Gemma
18:36
Corwin in the Weed in space and you're like, Oh yeah, I can see
18:40
why now he's got. I cannot let that shot go by
18:46
without talking about it. That spaceship shot where it
18:49
pulls away from the spaceship and then zooms in on Tobin Man.
18:53
Now there should scale there. Yeah, the the whole thing.
18:56
I mean, you know, look at it. It just looks it looks so.
19:01
Well made. It looks like the beginning of
19:03
the film, you know? What's sad though is is you see
19:07
the the colour pictures, there's all this glorious sort of
19:11
reddish sand, whereas there just looks like another grey quarry.
19:19
It does. And I was going to say, do you
19:22
think they do you think they should have gone back there for
19:25
Attack of the Cybermen Because they filmed it in the same
19:27
place, didn't they? Well, the annoying thing about
19:29
that is it's got this lovely reddish look to it and they
19:35
grade it to make it look as if it's black and white.
19:37
I'm like, are we ever going to see the colours of this fucking
19:40
quarry? God bless.
19:43
I mean, it's beautiful. That's just me being a pedantic
19:48
Doctor Who fan. Jim, I need to talk about every
19:52
single one of these characters throughout this thing.
19:54
All right? They're all glorious in
19:56
different ways. Oh yeah, but this is leaning
20:03
into, isn't it? It's so sort of, I don't know
20:06
how my film's out at this point. You know, that sort of horror
20:08
films, the curse of the mummies tomb.
20:12
Yeah, I think you had. I think there was a lot of
20:14
Universal monster movies that had been around at that point.
20:18
You've seen it. I can't say that I've sat
20:22
through and watched the whole film.
20:24
I've probably seen bits of things, but I can't say that
20:28
I've sat and watched the whole thing.
20:31
Do you know what's shameful is I've never seen any of those
20:35
glorious old horror movies, right?
20:36
You know, You know Hollywood movies.
20:40
And yet I've got a whole shelf over there of B movies that were
20:43
made on about 15 pence. I've got one of my shelf
20:45
nymphoid barbarian in dinosaur hell.
20:47
I've seen that. I've never seen curse on a
20:50
mummy's tomb. No, no, I'm the same.
20:53
I'm the same. It's, you know, you just, it's
20:56
one of those things that I never dipped into.
20:59
I probably should, but it's getting around to it.
21:04
Shirley. Is it Shirley Cookson that plays
21:06
Kaftan? Yes, I think so.
21:08
Yeah. She says this was a baking hot
21:10
day and you can see it. She goes on.
21:13
We're having so much fun climbing up that dirt mound.
21:16
I think she was being sarcastic and we're into we're into the
21:21
studio now, I believe. If you can notice the transition
21:24
between film and the studio, suddenly all the rocks are very
21:27
2D. Well, I was, I was actually
21:31
going to ask you a question about that because when this was
21:35
first out on DVD they didn't do the vid fire process on it did
21:38
they? I think it was the 1st black and
21:42
white story to be released on DVD and it they hadn't perfected
21:48
the vid fire process at that point.
21:51
So what it was it was re released few years later I
21:55
believe with it being vid fired. But I as much as I I love the
22:02
restoration that goes into it. But I sometimes miss that kind
22:06
of film, like quality. I agree.
22:11
I didn't like the vid fire efforts and I I get it was a new
22:15
bit of technology and it did scrub things up and made them
22:18
look cleaner. I saw that vid fired Mind rubber
22:22
and I could see that cyclorama thing that they were walking
22:25
around well on VHS it was all fuzzy and marvellous and like a
22:28
white void all of a sudden I could see they're in a studio.
22:31
It's OK, yeah. And I think it it's you know it
22:34
it you can see the the transitions differently between
22:38
studio to film vice versa when now it's all cleaned up and
22:44
yeah, I suppose you're getting you're getting the story as it
22:47
as it should be and absolutely fantastic job to the people who
22:51
do these restorations. But I I often miss that little
22:56
bit. I remember watching the Aztecs
22:59
after it had been cleaned up, and I just, I mean, it needed
23:01
cleaning up, but I kind of missed that kind of filmic look
23:05
that it had before that fire was put onto it because, you know,
23:09
it's in the studio now. Yeah, absolutely.
23:13
Oh, that's nice. Did you see his hand there?
23:15
Yeah, that's awful. That's really nasty.
23:19
Would would. We had a very quick moment of
23:21
trout on Heinz and Watling on location there.
23:23
I don't really think where they needed to go, really, but I
23:26
think they are. We're not missing out on the
23:27
catering. We're coming to Dorset with you
23:31
just for one little scene. Sorry you couldn't say something
23:34
then when I was being facetious I was just going to say would
23:36
you open the doors for £50? £50?
23:40
No way. I'm not Tom Baker.
23:43
I don't care. I bet for less than 40 grand if
23:49
Deepak was just worth a bit more back then, wasn't it?
23:51
I don't know how much £50 worth in 1960.
23:53
Odd. I think I was re watching it
23:56
with the production subtitles the other day and I think it was
23:59
this is something like 700 pounds or something like that.
24:01
So maybe. Then I've done less than £700.
24:04
I'm honestly, what's all this stenciling about this now?
24:11
I mean, they talk about advertising your presence.
24:17
Yeah, I think it again, that's tying into your kind of Egyptian
24:21
motif a little bit, isn't it? It's it's it's kind of stuck as
24:27
well, that symbol of the Cybermen.
24:31
I mean is, you know, straight away.
24:32
Then you get a fabulous reaction from Trawan, like oh God, the
24:35
sidemen are here. You know, we we've got to stay
24:37
and we've got to see this through.
24:40
But like, have you ever seen any of these sort of car adverts I
24:44
do these days, where it's like 2 minutes of very cinematic?
24:48
Theme that's occurring, and at the end you're like, well, what
24:51
the fuck was that all about? And then Peugeot comes up at the
24:54
end. You're like, OK, whereas this is
24:57
exactly what it says on the tin, you know, Cybermen are here,
25:02
without a doubt. And is it?
25:06
Is it? Is it telos or is it telos?
25:10
Well, I'll say Telos. Does anyone say telos?
25:12
Oh, I think that's don't he? He says.
25:14
Telos, Yeah, which I think the 8th Doctor may have mentioned in
25:22
an old Big Finish story. Have you ever listened to Return
25:28
to Telos, the Big Finish adventure?
25:31
No, I haven't. Our buffer is ghastly.
25:34
Really. Oh, it's.
25:36
Just it's basically a knock off of this.
25:39
Just all the same sound effects and everything.
25:41
And recently on 1/5 Doctor set, they they did a story.
25:47
This is this is how desperate Big Finish are these days.
25:50
I love Big Finish. It literally is set on Captain
25:55
Hopper's ship as it's leaving Telos and 5th Doctor, Tegan and
26:00
Nyssa land on the ship. It's like, oh, I think I've been
26:02
here before, you know? Oh, my word.
26:05
Actually, it wasn't too bad. Actually, it was really creepy.
26:10
I yeah, I've kind of, I've kind of lost my way a little bit with
26:13
Big Finish. I may have mentioned it last
26:15
time I was on there's there's so much I want to listen to, but I
26:18
just don't have the time, don't have the time for it at the
26:21
minute that that that sounds wrong.
26:23
I just don't have the time to listen to anything.
26:26
It's. Because you're listening to 900
26:28
episodes of How Through a Blunt Penknife.
26:29
That's why. You know, that's really good
26:31
time. Stitch that podcast, listen to
26:33
big finishes. Yeah, that door does look big,
26:36
doesn't it? It does, yeah.
26:39
Did you hear about Morris Morris Barry in the set?
26:43
Have you heard that story? Not sure so.
26:48
The set was put up wrong and nobody could hit their marks
26:52
properly where the cameras were. So instead of this is how to the
26:56
letter, he was instead of moving the cameras 2 foot to the left.
27:01
This is Deborah Watlin saying this on the documentary.
27:04
He had the entire set moved. So over an hour, he broke for
27:09
lunch early and had the set moved.
27:11
So the cameras were in line to shoot everybody.
27:15
Oh wow. And that's a that's a director
27:18
for you. Didn't he used to?
27:20
Didn't he used to have a music stand with the script on?
27:25
And like one of those sort of conductors, yeah, I, I, I love
27:32
this bit with them, with them helping Vic.
27:38
Well, of course. This is our first adventure,
27:39
isn't it? So yeah, she's, yeah, Victoria's
27:45
an interesting, an interesting one.
27:47
I'm not, I'm not a massive fan of her, but I do kind of like
27:52
this little journey that she goes on through the series,
27:55
through the season. She's she's she's kind of never
28:00
very comfortable and that kind of so ahead in fury from the
28:06
deep so. It does make you I do like that
28:09
journey that she goes on. If Trout and Stockton was a
28:13
little more tuned in to people's feelings, because he's not
28:16
really. I think at the end of the
28:18
stories he also sort of chip off back to the TARDIS rather than
28:20
everyone. Thank you, you know.
28:23
If if maybe after, like this story, he didn't just go do you
28:26
know what? Would you like us to take you
28:28
somewhere and you can have a nice life, you know instead?
28:32
No, come on, we're going to be menaced by Ice Warriors and
28:35
yetis. And come on Victoria, no one can
28:39
do what we're doing. It's shitless every 5 minutes
28:44
and that's and and that's it. I mean she's you know and she's
28:46
kind of she goes on this journey of I almost see him as the the
28:49
the companion that that shouldn't have been you know
28:52
she's it's you know it's not it doesn't stand out as that of of
28:59
her being that kind of character.
29:01
But I always that's how I always see her and how I always kind of
29:06
look at her because I'm not I I am I aren't a massive fan of her
29:10
but if I look at it in a way of this this is a girl that
29:13
shouldn't have ever travelled with the Doctor.
29:16
I can kind of appreciate her character a little bit more.
29:20
She's just like you say. She's been scared shitless.
29:24
Do you know what sells it though?
29:25
OK, I'm going to say something now that ain't going to make me
29:28
any fans. I don't think Deborah Rotley is
29:30
a particularly good actress. I think she it's like Caroline
29:35
Ford. There's a couple of of and I
29:38
think Janet filled in when she started, but actually she got a
29:40
bit better. There's a few companions where I
29:43
just think the performances ain't great, but the chemistry
29:48
with. The with the Doctor and the
29:51
other companion, I think the 2nd Doctor, Jamie and Victoria, They
29:54
have so much care which when they're all in the things
29:57
together, it's fucking gold. Yeah.
30:01
And that's that's that's you know how it how it works
30:05
sometimes. You know, I think and I think as
30:09
well, you know, if you, if you look at Caroline Ford and Susan,
30:12
I think she sometimes get by because of what she is, you
30:16
know, being the Doctor's granddaughter rather than
30:20
actually being a very good character, you know.
30:23
But yeah, you're right, the chemistry between between the
30:27
three of them is just it's fantastic do.
30:31
You know, the only other thing I've seen Caroline fall in aside
30:34
from playing Susan is Zorrel in Shakedown Return of Sontarans,
30:38
DreamWorks production in the 90s.
30:40
And honestly, it's even worse than her.
30:42
Susan. Absolutely dreadful.
30:45
She's just drunken old vamp. Oh, it's terrible.
30:49
I haven't watched that for years.
30:51
What's this all about? Trout's there.
30:54
He's sort of shaking his hands, going.
30:55
I love seeing all the experts at work.
30:57
Now, he could have put a stop to all of this.
31:01
So why doesn't he? I don't know.
31:06
Is it a case of him wanting to explore himself but allow others
31:13
to to do The Dirty work? That's a that's a sort of
31:18
morally muddy area then, yeah. Or is it just because I can't?
31:26
I don't know. I have no idea why you would
31:30
allow them to do it. It's such an interesting 1
31:32
trout, isn't it? Because or not Trouts are the
31:34
2nd Doctor because he's one of the most amiable portrayals.
31:40
And yeah, he's pretty dark in some of the stuff that he does.
31:44
Yeah, there's there's something, there's something a little bit
31:46
sinister there. You can see how how McCoy, kind
31:50
of because McCoy, McCoy grew up watching Trouton, I think, or
31:56
maybe not grew up, but watched him when he was younger.
31:59
And you can kind of see that kind of mischievous side in the
32:03
7th Doctor. I don't think it.
32:06
I think it's a lot more subtle with the 2nd Doctor, you know,
32:13
but it yeah, he's he can be very dark and I know it was early on
32:17
in in the series, but I always remember him in the Highlanders
32:21
slamming that guy's head. Yeah, Jesus Christ.
32:25
Or, like, you know, it's bloody hilarious in the Seeds of Death
32:28
when he's got that massive lash up on those two lamps in his
32:31
hands, but he's literally going around murdering all the it's
32:37
like Matt Smith Dr. You know, he's got this sort of veneer.
32:42
Of amiability, which means he kindly gets away with where
32:46
someone like Colin Baker who's just in your face, he's going to
32:49
frap face. You know, you go, oh, I don't
32:51
like him, He's he's horrible and violent.
32:53
And you look at Mass and Patrick Trout, they're getting up to far
32:56
worse stuff. They do it with a smile, you
32:59
know, and a bit of charm. They get by.
33:05
But then, so I wonder if it's one scientific curiosity that.
33:11
That he just two is because he knows the side men are there and
33:15
he wants to see what they're up to.
33:17
Or three, he just thinks all this bunch of people, I don't
33:20
care if they all die. They're really annoying, isn't
33:22
they? Yeah, I mean, maybe he's just
33:29
trying to be the the observer, you know, to to to the human
33:36
history, because this is kind of, I suppose, history for him,
33:40
really. I suppose that would be that.
33:42
That's the Hartnell approach, isn't it?
33:44
Sort of. Step back.
33:46
Let them do it. You won't get involved, do you?
33:49
I do. Kind of like that.
33:50
Trial was a little anarchist though, isn't it?
33:52
He's there. You're right.
33:54
I mean that lever there and that'll get you down that hole.
33:58
Yeah, I mean exactly. And that the the way he said to
34:01
Cleek. You know, I wouldn't, I wouldn't
34:03
do it. I really wouldn't do it.
34:04
It's like. You kind of.
34:06
You're the one who showed him. Yeah.
34:12
I've been in a few situations like that, you know?
34:14
I wouldn't do it. I wouldn't do it.
34:15
Oh. Oh, no.
34:15
It's like, OK, I'm going to shut up.
34:16
I'll shut up. I'm sorry.
34:20
It's it's it's a it's a, you know, it's it's manipulative,
34:24
you know, making people think that they're doing it for
34:28
themselves when they're actually not.
34:29
They're being pushed into doing it.
34:31
Listen to Victoria here. Mercy Simon must have been
34:35
absolute giant, wasn't he? Oh my God, when she gets shoved
34:41
in that box, Debbie Watling says.
34:45
She got very claustrophobic. She couldn't do the same.
34:47
Someone else had to go in there and do the knocking.
34:50
Oh really? So she's in there 2 minutes.
34:52
Jesus Christ. Oh dude.
34:58
I do want to say that. You know, I have heard.
35:00
I have heard this. Poor boy.
35:00
I have heard wonderful things about Deborah Watling.
35:03
Away from the show that she was an absolute lark, you know, a
35:07
total piss head and a, you know, a scream at conventions, all
35:13
accounts her sort of her presence perhaps, was more
35:16
impressive than her performances.
35:19
Yeah, yeah, yeah. She went before a time, didn't
35:21
she? Do you know who this fellow is
35:24
here? Which Amy this is.
35:28
Oh, what's his name? Bernard.
35:30
Bernard. Holly Bernard.
35:32
Polly. Yeah, Axos.
35:34
Falling off, do you know, I will say is if you and I went into a
35:41
room, right? And yeah, suddenly there was a
35:42
pair of glowing boss eyes on the wall.
35:44
I'll say, Jim, let's get out of here quick.
35:47
All right? Nothing good is going to happen
35:49
in this room. He's going to go.
35:51
I'm just going to pull this lever.
35:52
He deserves to die. Love you, fella.
35:58
Oh dear, he does. Look at Drash in the back of
36:02
this scene. Do you notice him just just sort
36:05
of slyly popping into the room? Yeah, yeah.
36:09
The way he moves behind that machine, he's so again, you
36:13
know, I'm starting to see the 2nd Doctor in a in a more
36:18
sinister light. It's it's quite nice when you
36:21
come to Enemy of the World, you know?
36:22
And finally he's playing a nice guy.
36:24
Yes, Amanda. Oh man, the accident in the
36:31
world is out. It's What is it?
36:33
Oh, wow. This is just a form of
36:38
comprehensive insurance. Every phrase I was like, you're
36:44
really going to play it like that.
36:48
You try, you fail. The moon doesn't fall out of the
36:53
sky. Sit down, have a drink.
36:57
Did you think we were going to go here today?
37:00
Do you know, that's the thing about these conversations.
37:03
You never not quite know where you're going to end up.
37:05
No, you end up going off on the tangent, don't you?
37:07
It's just Doctor for you though, isn't it?
37:09
Come down and put Victoria in that machine there and in the
37:13
revitalizing machine. Well, what on earth was going to
37:15
occur to her if the Doctor didn't come in?
37:17
Yeah, she would. Have come out with a lovely tan.
37:23
Yeah, if this had been season 3, Victoria would probably be dead
37:28
now, soon as though they had to. What's this Historical
37:33
companion? No Killer The beginning of
37:35
working episode. I don't listen.
37:39
I don't think we can make it work with historical companion
37:41
so. No, look, we're coming up to
37:47
towards the end of episode one. I can't believe it already.
37:51
I can't even think we've scratched the surface on this
37:53
story. You guys just told me to shut up
37:56
every now and again. All right, let's just stop being
37:58
stupid. You keep being you, Joe.
38:02
That's. What?
38:03
That's like you. Do you just quite cheating you?
38:07
But I think this is a really fantastic cliffhanger.
38:12
Oh, with the Cyberman coming out.
38:14
Yeah, it is. Yeah, it is.
38:16
I think it's. I think I read the originally
38:20
they were going to have a Cyberman coming out, an actual
38:22
live Cyberman coming out of a cupboard or something and
38:26
shooting. Shooting instead.
38:28
Which, I don't know if that would have worked because, you
38:31
know, why would there be a Cyberman still hanging about
38:35
when the rest of them were all frozen?
38:36
But it's just. So weird the way he just sort of
38:39
slides in, yeah? But do you know what makes it
38:43
really work? Is the way that they don't cut
38:46
away from it. As the credits start and there's
38:48
this pulsing light on the side man's face, right?
38:51
You watch it and as it gets darker and darker and phase into
38:54
the credits, it looks like a skull.
38:56
As it starts getting darker, it's really creepy.
39:00
Yeah, they they did start experimenting with with the end
39:04
credits a little bit, didn't they?
39:05
During this this period, The web in the web of Fear pulsating in
39:12
the background. I mean, oh, oh, that's it.
39:18
But it's Holly's out. He makes a joke that 6 million
39:24
people watch episode one and 6.4 million people watch episode
39:27
two, he said. So more people watched him dead
39:29
than alive. Yeah, look at this as as it sort
39:34
of goes into the credits. Yeah, he thinks like a.
39:37
Like a skull. I just think it makes that sort
39:39
of curse of the mummy's tomb within quite explicit.
39:42
It does, Yeah. There we are.
39:45
Episode one. OK, So what do you think of that
39:48
as a scene setter? I think it's, I mean, if I'd
39:54
seen that as a child, which I did, but I would be wanting to
39:58
come back the next week to see it.
40:01
That was exciting. It's got everything you need.
40:07
It's got the the kind of the anticipation of the monster.
40:14
It's got the mystery, it's got the the peril.
40:18
And yeah, it's, I think it's, it's a great first episode.
40:24
In terms of sort of setting your stall about what it's all about,
40:29
I mean, it doesn't really. Like mess you around does it?
40:32
It's like we are, we're heading into this God awful base, we're
40:36
going underground and we're going to meet the sidemen and
40:39
it's doing that fabulous termination thing, isn't it, Of
40:41
like, wait until the end of the episode and then we'll open.
40:44
Them out. Yeah, I.
40:46
Want to watch this as a kid? You know I'll slept for a week.
40:50
He's too scared. The side man is going to come
40:52
sliding out of my cupboard, you know, at the end of the bench.
40:55
Yeah. And.
40:56
And they were. I mean, we'd probably talk more
40:58
about the Cybermen design on the next episode maybe, But they
41:02
are, they are, for me, the possibly the creepiest Cybermen
41:06
next to next to the Mondassians on 10th Planet.
41:09
But. I agree with you there, those
41:10
Mondassians, Cybermen with the where you can see the actor's
41:14
eye inside the holes. Yeah.
41:16
I mean, yeah. Well, enough of Time and Doctor
41:18
Falls. Got that?
41:20
Yeah, Yeah. Spot on.
41:22
Absolutely. Perfect.
41:23
And far bit from me to say anything kind of out of Steven
41:26
Moffett. No, no, he they literally were
41:31
The Walking Dead in that. Yeah.
41:32
Yeah, that's. Well, I'll tell you what.
41:36
I had a marvellous time of episode one, and I hope you did
41:38
too. But I think now we should try
41:40
and chip into episode 2 and see where it's going to lead us,
41:43
because I think we might see one of the most iconic sequences in
41:46
all of Doctor Who. I think we might do.
41:49
It's the bit where Victoria shoots the cyber mat.
41:55
I'm going to cut it there.