Latest / Nightmare Success In and Out / Honored Combat Veteran to Conviction: Jeremy Harrell's Battle with PTSD and the DOJ

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Honored Combat Veteran to Conviction: Jeremy Harrell's Battle with PTSD and the DOJ · Nightmare Success In and Out

0:00
What happens when your worst fear becomes your reality?
0:03
Hi, I'm Brent Cassidy, welcome to the Nightmare Success In and
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Out podcast where we explore how to overcome your fears and
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nightmares that set yourself free.
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We're going to be exploring this topic with guys that was in
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Leavenworth with and others who survived their own nightmare.
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These stories can be inspiring, sometimes sad, there's some
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humor, but hopefully you can come away with a nugget of
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something that'll help you knock down some of the prisons you
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built up in your own mind. All right, welcome back,
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nightmare success in and out, listeners, this is where you
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It's all very, very helpful to this show and I always
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appreciate it. So who we talking to today while
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we're talking to somebody, Jeremy Harrell, who he was
1:02
episode 154. And the unique part of this
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whole thing was is that Jeremy has become a good friend of mine
1:13
and I've been able to follow this thing through with the last
1:15
time that we spoke, we were lucky enough to interview Jeremy
1:20
before his sentencing. So he had gone through
1:23
everything up to that point. He went to trial, he lost crazy,
1:29
crazy, crazy thing that you'll have to pick up an episode for.
1:32
But I'm going to give you a little bit of summary of who
1:34
Jeremy is for those who he didn't listen to episode 154.
1:40
So Jeremy Harrell, he was AUS Army combat veteran who served
1:45
in the Operation Iraqi Freedom, the global war on terrorism.
1:50
Jeremy served honorably for nine years.
1:54
And he in 2017, he founded the Veterans Club, Inc, which is a
2:00
premier nonprofit that assists veterans in, in PTSD.
2:06
And, and I want to say, why is he involved with PTSD?
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Because years before, when he got back, he was diagnosed by
2:15
several different doctors that he had PTSD.
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And the final doctor said this is this is permanent.
2:19
So you're done. And so Jeremy was, well, I don't
2:22
feel done. So he went to work and really
2:25
became an expert on what PTSD was, how you can, you can make
2:31
different symptoms of this go away.
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And he became such an expert on it.
2:36
He became a national spokesperson and he was on
2:40
several different news stations that you would see.
2:44
And whenever something went out about PTSD, it was always Jeremy
2:48
and, and, and when I talk about the veterans club, it was a a
2:52
club that that was widely recognized and, and, and really
2:56
was doing incredible good for people awards that he got.
3:01
I just want to name a few of them because there's so many
3:03
here on this, but I wanted 2018 Kentucky Veteran of the Year,
3:06
2019 Patriot Award winner, National DC 2021 Community
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Ambassador Awards, Secretary of State Kentucky, 2021 Kentucky
3:15
Veterans Hall of Fame inductee, doing great work.
3:22
And so when I talk to you about the PTSD and being disabled, one
3:26
day he gets a knock on the door at his nonprofit and these guys
3:30
walk in from the government and say, Hey, we're investigating
3:33
you and we think you've committed a fraud with a
3:38
disability benefits. And over this course of, I don't
3:42
know, 10-12 years, it's $207,000.
3:45
And they're saying if you can do this with the veterans club, you
3:47
can't be disabled. Well, granted, just to make a
3:52
point, Jeremy wasn't the one that said he was disabled.
3:55
It was these doctors that diagnosed Jeremy.
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But that's a whole nother subject.
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So I talked to Jeremy the other day and he has, he's been in the
4:04
national news. His, him getting out and all the
4:07
things that happened. I said, why don't we just get on
4:11
and talk about this again. This is this is people want to
4:13
know this. It's a crazy story of how
4:16
everything, all the dots connected.
4:18
Aaron Harold deserves a Gold Star, an award plaque of, of, of
4:23
of wife of the year of what she did while while Jeremy was in.
4:28
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Autoplaza Direct telling Brent from Nightmare Success sent you
5:07
welcome Ben. Jeremy Harrell.
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How you doing my man? I'm doing well.
5:11
How are you? I'm doing good.
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I I just thought maybe what we should do when we, when we left
5:19
you after the last episode, you actually didn't even know what
5:24
your sentence was going to be. And no I.
5:27
Didn't it's So let's talk about that.
5:29
You go back in, take us from there, because you, you, you've
5:34
went and got sentenced and then went to prison.
5:37
Yeah, yeah. So, so my sentencing was back in
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December of 24 and and I didn't really know what to expect.
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You know, there's a guideline range that we all know and
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really what I was hoping for was probation at the most.
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I think that's all of our hopes whenever we're, we're going in
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front of the, a federal judge to be sentenced.
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But well, went in and, and we had about, I don't know, I want
6:06
to say maybe 150 people that supported me that showed up at
6:09
the courthouse and they started live streaming in different
6:11
courtrooms. But but when we got in there, we
6:15
were preparing to, for the judge to come in and, and you know,
6:19
just, it was just a very surreal feeling because I number one, I
6:23
didn't know if I was going to walk out of the courtroom again.
6:26
You know, there's always that possibility.
6:27
I know that we talk about self surrender, but that's, that's
6:30
kind of a privilege. And so and, and the way that
6:33
these prosecutors headed out for me, I mean, I didn't know.
6:38
And so, you know, I'm trying to get my mind right, right.
6:40
Because it had been quite some time between, you know, trial
6:44
and sentencing. And so the judge comes in and
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and the prosecutor right away gets started.
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He calls me all kinds of things, calls me a liar, says I'm two
6:53
faced. He takes some excerpts from the
6:58
over 50 character letters that I received from people around the
7:01
country. He reads them out loud and then
7:05
and then goes on to say that they're keyboard warriors, that
7:08
they're not attorneys, that these aren't sworn statements.
7:10
Just really trying to discredit what everybody had said about
7:13
me. And so that was a little bit
7:15
hard to listen to because I was, I'm the one on trial there
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essentially not, not everybody who supports me.
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So I didn't like that right. And then once he got finished,
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which seemed to have taken forever, that they tried to do
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like a little mini trial. I think sentencing was over 3
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hours long. Finally he got finished and the
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the judge just kept saying, Mr. Harrell, I really, really want
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to hear from you. I didn't testify in trial for,
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for a lot of reasons that we can talk about it at a later date,
7:44
but it's, it's really, you get punished for doing that.
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And I think a lot of people out there know that.
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But so after my attorney got up and he kind of gave his
7:53
arguments to the judge about what my sentence should be and
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how, you know, I, I, I should be probated at the Max and things
8:00
like that, I decided to get up and speak.
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And I'll tell you, you know, I do a lot of public speaking And
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so I'm usually pretty comfortable.
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But when you're sitting in front of a federal judge and your,
8:10
your livelihood's on the line, your legs start to shake a
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little bit, right? And, and and so I just, Jeremy
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did. You have anything prepared that
8:18
you were going to say or did you just get up and talk?
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So it's one of those things, I'm sure you probably, you know,
8:23
had, had had this happen to you, but I had something prepared and
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I just totally went off script because I just needed the judge
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to know why I did what I did, why I decided to serve, why I
8:34
decided to help. And, and also I wanted all the,
8:37
the people there that they were supporting me to, to know the
8:39
truth too. So I kind of went off script and
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I just said, you know, the first thing I, I, I did was I made
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sure that the judge knew that I, I regret nothing.
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I will always do the right thing, regardless of the cost
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for the people who need it the most.
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And, and I did say very respectfully, right?
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I said, I said, you know, with all due respect, no matter what
8:59
you do to me today, I will never stop doing this work that I do.
9:04
And he just smiled at me. And so I went through this whole
9:06
spill of, of, of why I did what I did.
9:09
And it wasn't about money because I didn't make any, I
9:11
didn't take any, right. It was just about, I had the
9:14
time and the opportunity to help people who were suffering the
9:17
way I was. That's basically what it boiled
9:18
down to. And after I was finished.
9:21
Jeremy, there was proof all around that that's exactly what
9:24
you did. I mean, you had supporters all
9:26
around. There was never any complaint
9:30
that what you did at the Veterans club wasn't something
9:34
that was heartfelt, that was working, that people were
9:37
feeling better and you had become an expert in this field.
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I mean, you, you had dedicated your life to it.
9:45
That's the thing. I mean, that nobody can argue
9:47
about that, that what you were doing, the community knew that
9:50
you were doing good things. And and that's why I think it
9:53
shocked so many people and it became such a big story.
9:57
Was this, wait a minute, How does this happen to him?
10:00
How does this happen to him? Because that scares people like,
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well, hell, that could happen to me if that happened to him
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because Jeremy is a good guy. What happened?
10:08
Right, yeah. And, and that's exactly right.
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And you know, when I got finished, you know, kind of
10:14
telling my side of the story there, he he said I was an
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admirable man. He said that maybe 5 or 6 times.
10:20
In fact, I, I have to admit that never in my life have I ever
10:24
been complimented so much at one time by one person.
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But then there was this. But right, we we get through
10:31
that and and I'm feeling good about things and he goes.
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But when there is a verdict of guilty by jury, I have to, you
10:40
know, I have to send it to you. And so the, the prosecutor, you
10:44
know, he wanted me to do, I think it was 15 months.
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My guideline was maybe 12, maybe 6 to, I don't know, 20-1,
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something like that. Well, no, it's 12 to 21, sorry,
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12 to 21. And, and the judge, he, he said,
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no, we're not going to do that. He said we're going to do the
11:02
split sentence, six months of prison with the Bureau of
11:05
Prisons and then six months on home confinement and then one
11:09
year at supervised release and of course forfeiture and the
11:12
restitution. You know, they want that.
11:13
They want the money and all that's involved, which which
11:17
doesn't get as much credit in my opinion, as the prison time.
11:20
But that's also very punitive and it's long lasting, right?
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And it and it just not only do they sent you to prison and
11:29
interrupt your life, but they bankrupt you in the process.
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So I think that's something that needs to be talked about more.
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But after he did that, you know, we're we're essentially
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finished. I'll never forget that the US
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Marshall who happened to be the US Marshall in the courtroom,
11:45
who happened to be a member of Veterans Club as a first
11:48
responder, but also he's a he's an Army veteran.
11:51
He comes up to me. I'm standing, I'm still standing
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at this, at this podium. And he comes up and he says, he
11:58
shakes my hand. He says, Jeremy, you have to
11:59
keep going. And I said, well, you know,
12:02
they're making it pretty hard for me.
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Look where I stand today, right? And he said, but you're the guy,
12:07
you're the guy man to, to, to keep it going.
12:09
And so I really thought in that moment that was kind of a, you
12:13
know, kind of a, a nod from God, right, that says, Hey, now, just
12:17
stay the course that all this will pass.
12:19
But but it was a very emotional time, obviously.
12:22
And, and, and, and so we, you know, we left, we left sentence
12:26
and I got 45 days until I had to surrender.
12:30
We all agreed on that, although the prosecutor did his best to
12:34
try to get me remanded that day. And of course my attorney said,
12:37
you know, you want to remand the same guy that you allowed to fly
12:40
to Florida because he helped with Hurricane Milton and
12:43
Hurricane Helene. And now all of a sudden you
12:46
want, you want him to go to jail.
12:47
It was just their overreach. I just for some reason, and I
12:51
may never know the reason. I'm sure there's a lot of other
12:53
people like me. I'll never know why they
12:55
aggressively pursued me and they still are.
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I mean, here we're, we're seven months outside of sentencing.
13:00
They're still trying to put liens on my house.
13:02
They're still trying to freeze my bank accounts.
13:05
I mean, they're just ruthless. It's the most venomous scenario
13:09
that I've ever seen. And so, so, you know, we, we
13:12
obviously left and, and I try to spend as much time as I could
13:16
before I self surrendered. And in January of 2025, January
13:20
28th, I self surrendered to Ashland, FCI Ashland.
13:24
Of course, I went to the camp, but there you surrender to the
13:26
low first get processed and then they walk you over to the camp.
13:30
And so that's that's kind of how that went.
13:33
You know the The funny thing about that is was nothing funny.
13:37
I mean, stranger odd that everybody who's got a camp and A
13:41
and a it's either a low or a medium there.
13:44
They process everybody through at the same place.
13:46
And, you know, in the back of your mind is is, you know, I
13:50
hope that they got this right and you don't.
13:53
Know you don't, yeah, I mean. You don't.
13:56
You're the guy knocking at the door saying I'm not supposed to
13:58
be here. That's that's that's not a good
14:01
defense. But yeah, so you get processed
14:03
through. Jeremy, Tell, tell me about
14:07
that. Yeah.
14:08
Well, well, first, let me tell you this to kind of go back to
14:11
where we're talking about doing good work. the VA actually had
14:15
asked me right before this indictment to be a consultant
14:18
for their executive leadership team and they were hosting their
14:21
town halls in our headquarters. So this is the VA was also the
14:25
complaint. So imagine how like in my mind,
14:28
I was going, wait a minute, you guys are partnering with me at a
14:31
high level, but yet you're complaining about me.
14:33
But, but I just wanted to make sure that point was known.
14:35
But when I first walked in to the president and it and I tell
14:39
you it was, it was it's very difficult to have your family
14:43
drive you to prison to check in. Like that is just a weird.
14:49
I mean, it's almost, I know it may not be better in the grand
14:52
scheme of things, but it almost seemed more natural to have been
14:54
arrested and then have been transported because I'm not.
14:59
I'm just thinking, what do I do? I just knock on the door and
15:01
say, Hey, I'm here to check in. It's like Hotel California,
15:04
right? But but anyway, that's a walk in
15:08
to the to the administrative building of the prison.
15:10
I look to my left. I see this flagpole, obviously
15:13
the American flags flying, but they have all the different
15:15
military branches. And I just remember thinking to
15:18
myself like, I served both of those flags honorably and I
15:22
continue to serve the people who are broken because they served
15:26
both of those flags. And now I'm going into prison
15:28
because of it. I just, I mean, mentally it was
15:32
just, I can't imagine anything more difficult at this point.
15:35
I mean, I've been to convey, yeah.
15:37
And so I'll walk in and, and there's a, you know, there's
15:40
there's the, the metal detectors and, and the the CEO sitting
15:43
there and I have a, a veterans club shirt on because we're
15:46
currently filming a documentary about this whole process.
15:49
And so when I walk in, he he asked me, he says, are you a
15:52
veteran? I said, yeah.
15:53
And and he said, well, what are you here for?
15:55
And so I'm briefly tell him, you know, I'm still kind of, I don't
15:58
know how much I should divulge. This is all very new to me.
16:02
I never had anything on my record but a speeding ticket,
16:05
right, from 2008, right. So he asked me if I'm a veteran.
16:09
I said yeah. And I tell him what I'm there
16:10
for. And he's like, are you shipping
16:12
me? And I said I'm not, I'm not
16:15
here. I am.
16:15
I'm not just, I'm not going to just walk in here because I'm
16:17
bored, right? Yeah.
16:21
And so we go through the metal detectors and, you know, we're
16:24
trying to get to the R&D. They're receiving a discharge
16:27
unit. And as we're going through these
16:29
doors, you know, obviously I'm thinking, wow, man, you just
16:32
hear the doors shutting. And again, I'm, it's not typical
16:36
of a camp, but I'm at a low and I'm, I don't know really what to
16:38
expect. So they're shutting and then
16:41
some of these C OS are coming around the corner.
16:43
Well, it just so happens that a lot of these federal C OS are
16:46
veterans or they're in the National Guard.
16:49
They come around the corner, they see my shirt and they go
16:51
out. I have some of those shirts and,
16:55
and I'm just going, I've been here less than 20 minutes and
17:00
there's all signs point that I don't belong here, right?
17:03
Like these, these CE OS have bought my shirts because this
17:06
organization means something to them, right?
17:10
And so they look at me and it takes them a minute because I
17:13
shaved my, you know, shaved my beard fairly close because I
17:15
didn't know how that was going to go.
17:17
And when they recognized me, they're like, well, what are you
17:19
doing here? And I'm just like, I don't know.
17:24
It's the million. Yeah.
17:26
It's the $1,000,000 question. So we go down, we have to do
17:29
that, you know, that terrible strip search situation and get
17:32
dressed out in these old battered up, beat up clothes,
17:35
you know, and, and, and do all the, the, the paperwork and the
17:38
mug shot, get your ID and, and all that kind of stuff.
17:41
And then, and then of course you sit there for hours 'cause
17:44
you're waiting for everybody to get through and, and then they,
17:48
you know, I thought this was unique.
17:50
So when we're finished, I guess, and receiving, we walk, we get
17:55
escorted to the front entrance at admin building, the same one
17:58
I went in and the the camp, the guy from the council, from the
18:02
camp says, Hey, you all just walk, walk over and and I'll
18:06
meet you over there. I'm going what like walk right,
18:11
because it's not very far. It's it's, it's like right
18:13
beside the the low. And he's like, yeah, just
18:15
walking. So some of the guys coming from
18:17
higher security, they're like, what do you mean walk like
18:21
without cuffs? And he's like, yeah, just walk
18:23
over. So I thought that was I'm like,
18:25
we're just literally walking in the community.
18:28
We're crossing roads. There's three schools right near
18:31
the prison. And I'm going, this is bizarre.
18:33
Is this a setup? But we walk over to the to the
18:36
camp and then go into the camp. And of course, security is a
18:38
little bit, you know, it's a little bit less secure.
18:42
And then we, they have someone there waiting for us.
18:45
It's another inmate that they kind of call the mayor who comes
18:48
up and kind of introduces itself and kind of takes us around,
18:51
gives us a tour of the compound and then takes us to our unit.
18:56
And I just remember going into the unit and everybody stares at
19:00
you, right, Because you're the new guy.
19:02
Yeah. They're like trying to fill you
19:03
out. That's.
19:03
The one thing, Jeremy, you know, you see in movies, like when
19:10
somebody gets paraded in, yeah, it is really that way that, you
19:14
know, you're walking into their world.
19:17
Now you're. The new guy and so they they
19:19
really are checking you out. You know what's he like is.
19:21
He going to be. Cool.
19:22
Is he going to be somebody I hang out with is whatever it is,
19:25
or do I know him? If I seen him on TV, all those
19:27
different things happen right then, right there.
19:31
Yeah, yeah. So you know, we got this green
19:33
jumpsuit on you. You first get a jumpsuit.
19:36
And so everybody know that's you stick out, everybody knows you
19:38
got these what we call Jack outfit.
19:41
That's the first 2448 hours, right?
19:44
And then and then you got the Jackie Chan shoes is what we
19:47
call them. They're like a little slip on
19:48
shoes and we're walking. Yeah, yeah, they're tearing.
19:53
No. Shoelaces none at all yeah so we
19:56
we walked through I finally get to my to my you know cell unit
19:59
whatever you want to call it and and then all of a sudden I just
20:03
remembered or I just I just acknowledged like a lot of guys
20:06
coming over handing me things right because they.
20:09
Contrary to popular belief, they didn't, they didn't have things
20:12
ready for me, like they didn't give me the things I needed once
20:15
I got there. And so the, it was the other
20:17
inmates who come with, hey, here's a brand new bar of soap.
20:19
Here's a brand new toothbrush, toothpaste, deodorant, socks,
20:23
you know, some clothing items, some sweats, things like that to
20:25
kind of get you going. And, and I'll never forget how
20:28
that made me feel because, you know, there's a lot of people
20:30
out there and I was, I was guilty of this, right?
20:33
Who just thinks that everybody in prison are a bunch of people
20:37
deserve to be there, that they're bad people, right?
20:40
In reality, I learned very quickly that that was the case.
20:43
In fact, Now, don't get me wrong, there are certain people
20:46
there that that are that, but just like in in society, right?
20:50
But the generosity of people like these people have nothing,
20:56
right? And I've been in rooms full of
20:58
millionaires who wouldn't give you a dollar to get you
21:02
something to drink. And now I'm here with these
21:03
inmates who have nothing and they're giving me what they
21:06
have. And I'll just never forget that.
21:08
I thought, man, I'm right away. I thought we got it all wrong
21:10
here. But you know, I'm trying to get
21:13
settled in, trying to make the bunk up.
21:15
I guess it's what you want to call it.
21:17
Very, very small, very uncomfortable.
21:20
And, and I just remember laying down for the first night, you
21:23
know, after, after the 9:00 count and just looking up and
21:27
going, how did I get here? Right?
21:30
How how did helping thousands of veterans stay alive in their
21:35
darkest moments where they wanted to take their lives or
21:37
the ones that that that that were leaving their families
21:41
because they couldn't handle the family life and and couldn't,
21:44
you know, didn't have a place to live.
21:45
We got them a place. But how did all this turn into a
21:47
federal prison sentence? You.
21:49
Dedicated your life to it. My whole life, man, and, and I
21:52
never and they did, they did a forensic and I think this is
21:55
important because I later found out that some of the jurors come
21:59
back with a guilty verdict because they thought I took
22:01
money from the organization. Never.
22:03
They did a forensic audit, never found a single dime that I got
22:08
from the organization. But yet still I go to prison and
22:12
yet still they have this restitution.
22:13
But but yeah, it just took me, it took me a good probably 3 or
22:17
4 days just to get over that. I was angry.
22:19
I was just frustrated like, and what good is this going to do to
22:23
have me in here? There's nothing that I'm going
22:25
to that I need here as far as rehabilitation.
22:30
And you're, you're stopping progress from the people that
22:32
need us out there. Now, I will, I won't say that I
22:36
didn't learn anything while I was there because I learned so
22:39
much and I learned some lessons. And I'm sure you can agree that
22:43
that we probably would have never learned any other way.
22:46
And and what do you think? What do you think are some of
22:48
the things? I mean, obviously you spoke
22:50
about one of them, just the generosity of welcoming someone
22:54
in giving you stuff when you don't have anything that that
22:58
was a huge surprise to me. What what were some other things
23:01
that that changed your perspective, Jeremy?
23:06
Well, I mean, one, one of the big things was respect, the
23:09
level of respect that people have for each other and they're
23:12
now I understand why and there's consequences when you're not
23:17
respected. Yeah, it's a primitive society.
23:19
Yeah, and, and it doesn't matter your socioeconomic background.
23:22
I mean, you know, I met gang members, right, who are
23:25
respectful. And so there's this, there's
23:28
this false thought that, that, that these people are just wild
23:32
and dysfunctional and they have no, no morals or no, no code, I
23:36
guess, of conduct. And, and, and while there were a
23:39
few of those, for the most part, everybody had mutual respect.
23:42
It doesn't matter what what race you were, where you come from,
23:46
what you did, how long you're going to be there.
23:48
Everybody was respectful. And I just thought, man, if and
23:51
we could take a note from this and and apply it in society,
23:54
we'd have much less violence, right.
23:58
And, and, and so I, I did acknowledge that very quickly
24:00
also that, you know, my relationship with, with God
24:05
improved and increased and, and I recognized that, that there,
24:10
that suffering will, there's an art to that, right?
24:14
And that, that we do have the ability to suffer well to, to,
24:18
to take the, the hand that we've been dealt and to use it for
24:22
good, right. And, and it's not like that was
24:24
a foreign concept to me, but I never really had to put it in
24:28
practice in such a profound way as I did there.
24:31
But, but man, there were men there that, that I mentored that
24:34
gave their life to Christ. I LED Bible studies.
24:37
I, I taught Sunday service until we got a chaplain.
24:39
We didn't have a chaplain for a while.
24:41
But throughout all that, I learned also that there's a lot
24:45
more to these men's stories. Yes, they may have absolutely
24:48
made a mistake and, and yes, they have to pay for that.
24:51
I, we all, we all can agree with that.
24:54
And, and if I was guilty of what I'm done, I would have said I
24:57
got the best deal on the planet, right?
24:59
And, and all this would have been much easier to deal with.
25:03
But also there's a lot of foundational issues from some of
25:06
these men. They, they didn't have guidance,
25:08
they didn't have a father, they didn't have what they needed.
25:11
They were neglected, they were abused.
25:14
Some of them were addicts. There was a lot of addicts that
25:17
I met, recovered addicts that that they went to prison because
25:20
they had drugs, right? Not, not necessarily that they
25:22
did something wrong to somebody. It just so have they got caught
25:26
with, you know, so there was just a lot more to it.
25:28
And my hope is, is that when, before people judge going
25:32
forward, that they'll take an opportunity to really research
25:35
some of these things that I'm talking about now, because
25:38
they're, and I met a lot of great men in prison.
25:42
And, and we all got to remember that we're all just a small
25:44
mistake away. I mean, I use this example a
25:47
lot, Brett, like if, if you're on the phone and you call your
25:50
family or call somebody or friend and says, Hey, can you
25:53
run by the house and get my mail, open my mail, Let me know
25:56
what that letter says. Technically that's a felony,
26:00
right? And so we just have to do a
26:02
better job of, of not being self-righteous and, and just
26:07
understanding that we're all flawed humans just trying to do
26:09
the best we can. And a lot of us have more
26:11
opportunity than others. And instead of when we do have
26:14
those extra opportunities and that extra support system, use
26:18
that share that with the ones who don't instead of beating
26:20
them down, right. And so I think that's why I
26:23
earned so much respect in there. It's because I never asked a man
26:25
what he did. It didn't matter.
26:27
It's about what are you going to do now?
26:29
What's your plan? You know?
26:30
Jeremy, that's interesting that you brought that up.
26:33
I think surprisingly, that is something that doesn't happen a
26:36
lot in prison. You would think that there's a
26:39
whole bunch of people sitting around talking about their cases
26:43
and it's more like we're, we're just getting to living present
26:48
in the moment, trying to get by. And you know, whether you're
26:52
going for walks or you're working out or you're reading or
26:54
you're doing your prison job, whatever.
26:56
Surprisingly, there's not a ton of conversation about what
27:00
happened to me and what happened to my case and all it's, it's a
27:05
lot of guys I was with, I never knew really what their case was.
27:09
Which is to some people that sounds really odd, but it's,
27:13
it's the dynamic of the place that you're in, I think.
27:17
Yeah, yeah, I think that, you know, I, I think all we're
27:19
trying to do in that moment is, is because we're all suffering.
27:23
Yeah. Survive, but also to try to find
27:26
some sense of normalcy. I mean, especially the guys
27:29
that's been down for 20-30 years.
27:31
You know, you get to the 10 year mark, you can go to a camp if
27:34
it's nonviolent and, and, and they're doing their best to try
27:38
to make it as normal as possible.
27:39
And it's, it's, it really, it bothers me because I hate that
27:44
they have to do it, but I understand why they do it
27:47
because there really is nothing normal about prison.
27:52
And yet here they are trying to make it that way.
27:54
You know, I, I remember guys that's been down, you know, 30
27:57
years saying, hey, Jeremy, it's the weekend.
27:59
Turn your alarm off, man. So we could sleep, right,
28:02
Because I always, always got up at the same time, right, to, to
28:05
read the Bible and to get ready for visit on the weekend.
28:08
Well, to them it was a weekend, right?
28:10
And, and they work unicore jobs or something throughout the
28:13
week. And so they really looked at it
28:15
was this is our time to relax. And I and my mind I'm I'm going
28:19
nothing about this is like a weekend.
28:21
It's like a it's like, it's like a month of Monday.
28:24
It's. A month that.
28:27
Is so funny. That you say that because I had
28:29
a job Fort Leavenworth was behind this huge campus of
28:35
Leavenworth prison. So Fort Leavenworth is a big,
28:38
you know, there's probably 25,000 people in that Fort and
28:41
they have a golf course and that golf course is maintained by
28:44
prisoners. And the, the, the last year and
28:48
a half that I was there at Leavenworth, I got that job.
28:50
There's only four guys that went over there every day at 6:00.
28:54
He came back at 3:00. And they gave us the opportunity
28:57
about six months in to my to work in there, ask us if we
29:02
would mind if to work on the weekends.
29:05
And I was like, yeah, 'cause I mean, you got, you get, you're
29:10
out of prison, you know, you're over at this golf course.
29:12
And I work seven days a week just because I love being out
29:16
there, you know, on that place instead of being inside the
29:20
prison. There's a lot of guys that do it
29:22
differently, but there's a lot of guys do their time
29:24
differently. And that's another thing you
29:25
don't really mess with how people do their.
29:27
Time, right? I think the main thing the the
29:30
real message, and I think you're saying this to Jeremy, you don't
29:32
want to lose yourself in prison. You want to.
29:35
Continue to try to. Maintain who you are.
29:37
You don't want that taken away from me.
29:39
And that's however you do. That is is whatever you do.
29:43
Yeah, and then that's what it was, that they wanted some sense
29:46
of identity and, and, and I, I get that.
29:50
And and unfortunately for me, like I, I tried to get jobs but
29:54
because my students were. Short because you were.
29:56
There. Yeah, yeah.
29:57
Six month sentence. They're like, by the time we
30:00
train you, we'll. Have to hire somebody else?
30:02
Right. Yeah.
30:03
And it's, and it's so bizarre when you get there, right,
30:05
because they tell you that everybody has to have a job,
30:08
right? And so I remember asking the
30:10
counselor said, so, so where's the postings for these jobs?
30:16
He goes, what postings? There's no postings.
30:19
And I said, well, OK, so we're we have to get a job.
30:21
We don't know where the jobs are.
30:23
He goes, what you do is you walk around and you ask people who's
30:26
hiring. And I'm like, what?
30:29
And he goes, yeah. And so I couldn't.
30:31
So eventually I had to come back and I'm like, you know, I can't
30:34
find anything. I went to Unicorn.
30:36
I'm too short. I went to the garden.
30:37
I'm too short. I went like, there's nobody
30:40
wants to invest and, and he goes, he goes, well, no, there's
30:44
something. And I said, OK, what's that?
30:45
He's like, he's like, I'll make you a compound orderly.
30:48
And I said, OK, what, what's that mean?
30:50
So for folks that don't know what an orderly is, it's
30:52
basically a fancy term for a janitor, right?
30:54
And I said, OK, what's that mean?
30:56
He said, well, if you see paper when you're walking on the
30:58
compound, you just pick it up. And I said, OK, great.
31:02
So I make $14.82 a month doing that and, and then, you know,
31:07
just just in my mind, I'm going, oh, now the government's OK with
31:11
me working. Funny how that works because
31:14
because now I'm at a prison working.
31:16
But, but you're, but you're right.
31:18
So, so if you don't have a certain amount of time it, I
31:21
think it's it's harder in the sense that in a.
31:24
In a. Yeah.
31:25
Position. Jeremy.
31:27
Very boring. Yeah, very boring.
31:30
And you know, for me, one of the things to to kill time was
31:34
having a job that that I could do.
31:36
Like I worked in the food warehouse and we did a lot, you
31:38
know, we you. Know we've.
31:39
Had 2200 people a day. There's a lot of food and
31:43
there's, you know, there were forklifts and, and, you know,
31:46
all kinds of pallets and all kinds of stuff that you're doing
31:49
with inventory and it kept you busy.
31:51
Plus we had the garden that they do stuff and then I had to count
31:55
all that stuff out and then we give it away to these nonprofits
31:59
that would pull up and you had to inventory all that.
32:02
So that kind of kept me busy. But I, I would have gone
32:05
absolutely Zulu nuts if I was in your position and I wouldn't
32:09
have any, you know that because every, you're exactly right.
32:13
The reason why they won't, they won't take you is not because
32:16
they don't want you is they don't want to train you and they
32:18
got to train somebody else in, you know, 5 or 6 months.
32:22
Yeah, that's right. So then, so then you go, OK,
32:24
what am I going to do now? So essentially I read a lot.
32:27
I read over 20 something books in just that short amount of
32:30
time. I tried to teach a class about
32:32
how to start a non profit but but they wouldn't let me do that
32:35
because they thought it was part of my case, right?
32:38
They thought you know exactly. How to?
32:41
Do it. That's another thing that's
32:41
crazy. And I'm like, well, these
32:43
there's some guys in here that have learned from, you know,
32:46
from their charges and they want to set up a non profit.
32:50
So other young people don't you know, it didn't matter.
32:53
They were like, no, yeah, we're not, we're not going to do that.
32:55
So essentially, you know, I would, I what end up happening
32:59
is I would go out to the picnic tables.
33:01
I guess that's what they are kind of like these little
33:02
Octagon tables out in the the the yard and, and step there and
33:06
guys would come up and talk to me.
33:08
And as they got to know me, other guys would come up and
33:11
talk to me. So I felt like I gave a lot of
33:13
like free advice. I gave a lot of like
33:16
encouragement. I spent time in the Bible with a
33:18
lot of men. So it wasn't wasteful, but it
33:21
just it just, and I think God absolutely did that on purpose.
33:25
I really believe that in his in his sovereignty, because I am a
33:28
man of faith. I believe that he set it up to
33:30
where I can pour into these men and remind them who they are and
33:33
him not what they are according to the Department of Justice
33:36
website, right? And so, so that was fruitful and
33:39
I liked that. But man, I sure was getting to
33:41
the point where it's like that. The hours, I'll never forget.
33:44
The hours go so slow. It's like an hour at home.
33:51
I'm just like, what? Oh, it's already that time
33:54
there. I'm going, man, we're not even
33:55
close to 4:00 count yet, you know, so, but again, it was
34:00
just, it was an opportunity though for me to be
34:03
introspective and to reset. And I just tried to, I just
34:06
tried to make the best of it the, the best that I could.
34:09
And I had my moments right. Because while I'm there, the,
34:13
the, the financial litigation unit, the flu, they're viciously
34:19
coming after me for money and things.
34:21
And, and we don't have a whole lot of that right now, if any.
34:23
And so they, I get, I get a phone call and from my wife or I
34:29
don't get a phone call. I get an e-mail that I call her
34:32
from my wife and I and, and the flu, the financial prosecutor
34:36
'cause they have them too, gave, gave me 3 days ordered by the
34:41
judge to come up with $52,000. I'm in prison.
34:45
He gave me 3 days to do it. And so initially I'm going,
34:49
well, that's impossible. I can't do that.
34:51
Well the problem is is they they knew because whether they want
34:55
to admit it or not historically I'm a rule follower so I'm going
35:00
to do everything I can to be compliant.
35:02
They also knew that my wife had the ability to to make this
35:06
happen on my behalf which I feel like it's unfair because they
35:09
essentially treat her like a Co defendant.
35:12
She shouldn't even be considered in any of this.
35:14
But that's not how that works either.
35:16
And many of you all that watch this have been through this
35:18
know, well, you know, I, I initially I'm like, I can't do
35:22
that. I mean, there's nothing I can do
35:23
here. I can't go to the bank.
35:25
But my attorney was concerned that if I didn't do it, in the
35:28
event I get on supervisor release, that they would violate
35:31
me and send me back. So here we are having to try to
35:34
figure that out in three days. We, we do that.
35:38
It was crazy. We ended up doing that and yet
35:41
that wasn't enough. So when it was time for me to be
35:44
released, they come back and said, we know that the judge put
35:49
a judgement in that Mister Harrell would not have to pay
35:51
any restitution until March 1st of 2028.
35:55
But there's a small loophole that we're going to use that
35:58
makes it do immediately. And and because it's due
36:02
immediately, if you don't have it, we're going to put liens on
36:04
the House and we're going to freeze your bank accounts.
36:07
Never once that's. Just a lot to to to take in
36:10
while you're in prison because you feel right.
36:12
Completely powerless when? You're when.
36:14
You're in custody. So, you know, we get 15 minutes
36:17
at a time on the phone, right? That's the so, so I'm trying to
36:20
sort this out. I get off the phone.
36:22
I have nobody like I have nobody there that I can run this by.
36:27
You know, I'm the guy who gives out the advice.
36:30
I don't have anybody who can. So I feel you're right.
36:33
It's the most helpless feeling I've ever felt on the planet.
36:37
Here my wife is in, she's stressing out.
36:40
She's into rest my kids as a man, right, who whose sole job
36:45
is to provide and protect. I can do neither.
36:48
I mean, it's the most that was the worst part about prison for
36:51
me. Yeah, but I can't do anything
36:54
about anything. And you know that.
36:56
Yeah. That's the real prison.
36:59
It's what it does to your mind while you're there going man,
37:03
I'm supposed to be able to to do these things.
37:05
I'm supposed to be able to help with this and.
37:06
And here so I I don't understand the purpose of and that that's a
37:10
different conversation, but I don't understand the purpose of
37:12
camps because of that, because they let you go out work in the
37:14
community. But but nonetheless, it was a,
37:17
you know, that even though it was a short sentence and and I'm
37:21
never going to pretend it was like a lot of people who do a
37:23
lot of time, but it didn't feel short to me at all.
37:28
I think, I think Jeremy, you know, I talked about this when
37:30
we were talking on the phone after you got home, whether
37:34
you've gone for a week or whether you've gone for 10
37:38
years, that feeling of being processed, the feeling of, of
37:42
that freedom being taken from you, the, the, the ability to
37:48
not be heard in the way that you can be heard when you are out
37:53
and all those different things that you just feel as a human
37:56
when you have the freedom taken away.
37:57
Freedom is something you feel, you know, and, and it's you were
38:04
in for six months, but you got a, a full dose of it and heaped
38:08
on. So I there's no doubt about
38:10
that. Yeah, yeah.
38:13
And then so you know, so my, my, I'm getting closer to, I think
38:16
the time where I'm going home now.
38:18
Nobody told me this, right? I had only had one team meeting,
38:22
which you all know. You know, you get a team meeting
38:25
if it's if it's over a year, you get it every six months.
38:27
If you're under a year from the Senate, you get every 90 days.
38:31
So I only had the one team meeting.
38:32
They didn't know anything at that point.
38:33
That's the first 30 days you're there.
38:35
So I'm getting closer and I'm going, man, I should be
38:38
according to FSA and all that, right?
38:40
I should be getting out of here. I should be home.
38:43
This is like the end of April, beginning of May.
38:46
And so I can't get any like I can't get any information.
38:49
The, the counselor there and, and the case manager, they had
38:54
this thing called open house. So for two hours a week, inmates
38:59
were allowed to come in and ask questions.
39:01
There's 206 of us when I left in Ashland.
39:05
How in the world is that enough time for anybody to get anything
39:07
done? Now, if you you couldn't just
39:10
walk in there, even if you saw them, you couldn't really bother
39:12
them, right? Which I think is just asinine
39:15
considering what their job title is.
39:17
But yeah, so I call, I call my wife and I'm like, Eric, can you
39:22
call the RRM, which is the regional RE entry Management
39:25
Center in Cincinnati and ask them when my out date is?
39:28
I don't know what's going on. So yeah, so she calls, she calls
39:32
on a Monday and she talks to someone who says, Oh, well, he's
39:37
eligible to, to, to leave the end of April, beginning of May
39:41
and. What's the date now when you're
39:44
when she's making that call? So that that is I think at the
39:47
beginning of April when she made the call.
39:51
And so, so the very next day, I found this interesting.
39:56
The very next day I get called into the secretary's office.
39:59
Now I don't know how it was at Leavenworth, but there when you
40:02
get caught in the secretary office, it's only for one day
40:05
and that's for you to get ready to leave, right?
40:07
So I get called in, we do the thumbprint, right?
40:10
And he says, you're going to a halfway house on May 20th.
40:16
And I said, well, OK, you know, I said, I said, but I'm I'm
40:19
supposed to go directly to home confinement.
40:22
He's like, well, let me check. He gets back into the computer.
40:25
He goes, no, you're, you're going to a halfway house.
40:28
I'm going it makes no sense for me to go to the halfway house.
40:30
And then he says, well, here's what'll probably happen.
40:33
You'll go to the halfway house and then they'll give you a
40:36
monitor and send you home. All right, OK, we handle that.
40:41
So you know, I I may, May 20th comes, I get caught up, I go
40:45
home out process. I'm to go directly to this
40:47
halfway house in Lexington. I get there and, and I didn't go
40:52
straight home. I get there, I get, you know,
40:55
processed and, and so then I call the RRM again.
40:59
This time I call and I say, Hey, what's, what's the deal?
41:02
What's? Going.
41:03
On yeah. And so now they tell me, well it
41:06
says that you're eligible for home confinement on May 25th and
41:11
I'm like, this is crazy. I I should have never got here,
41:14
but hey, it's five days I'll knock it out and go home.
41:18
May 25th comes, nothing happens. So I called the case manager at
41:23
the halfway house to talk to her.
41:25
And I say, listen, I'm eligible for home confinement.
41:28
I'm I'm essentially taking the beds from somebody who really
41:31
needs it. I don't really need it.
41:33
I went down so long. I mean, my my ID is still valid.
41:36
My license is like, there's no point in me being here.
41:40
Yeah. And so, so she's she's like, OK,
41:43
well, I'll do a home visit and then we have to do the home
41:46
visit. And then I said, OK, no problem.
41:48
So the next day, she goes and does the home visit, comes back.
41:51
I don't hear anything for several more days.
41:55
So then I call her again. I said, I said, here's the deal.
41:57
There are people out there who know that I'm supposed to be
42:00
going home that are going to be concerned.
42:03
And so I called Aaron and told her.
42:06
Aaron gets on X, formerly known as Twitter.
42:10
She's putting this post out. She tags Savannah Chrisley in
42:14
the post. I mean, my wife, man, she's a
42:21
hero, right? But, but, but I want to
42:24
encourage people because I know people focus on how many
42:27
followers they have. Like, I don't have a lot of
42:28
followers. My wife was very new to X and
42:32
she really didn't even know how to post it initially.
42:34
She had maybe 20 followers. She sends this out, Savannah
42:38
picks it up, right? She goes, wait a minute.
42:41
So she calls the director of the Bureau of Prisons, William
42:44
Marshall, also known as Billy, right?
42:47
And she tells him what's going on.
42:49
And he's like, oh, no, thank you.
42:51
Yeah, six, six weeks, maybe, maybe 7 weeks.
42:54
Now he's like, no, this can't happen.
42:56
Like, this ain't the way this works.
42:58
So collectively, they get a hold of the the halfway house and
43:03
say, hey, he's going to leave today at about 3:00 PM And then
43:09
they get, well, there's, there's a lot of paperwork that we have
43:11
to do. No, no, that there's no
43:13
paperwork. The director says that he's
43:15
leaving today, you know, at 3:00 PM.
43:18
Now, I'm lucky enough to have that happen.
43:19
There's so many that fall through the cracks that don't
43:21
have that right. And it breaks my heart.
43:22
There's still people there right now that need to be home.
43:25
So anyway, they call me up all of a sudden right now.
43:28
Funny how that works. All of a sudden, they streamline
43:31
it, call me up to the case, mayor's office, put a bracelet
43:33
on me and they say, hey, you're you're going to leave today, but
43:37
you have to come back June 11th to get this bracelet off and
43:40
then you'll be turned over to probation.
43:42
OK, good. I'm going home.
43:43
This is great, right? So around 2:00, all of a sudden
43:49
these news channels, right? And I'm texting someone on the
43:54
phone whose news channels come and they want to, they're all
43:57
setting up for my for me to leave.
44:00
And so the directors in the halfway house come out and they
44:03
look at me and I'm like, I'm not, I told you, were you?
44:06
Wondering, Jeremy, how all the news people knew that you were
44:09
getting released out of there? I wasn't.
44:12
I'm surprised. Because I don't want to back up
44:15
a little. Bit, Yeah, yeah, go ahead.
44:16
You have been a person who's been recognized in the media and
44:21
you're you. You've.
44:21
Been on the big? Shows and that so I I wouldn't
44:24
think that it would be a gigantic surprise that this had
44:27
been something they've been following.
44:29
Maybe they heard that something was going on, but still, it had
44:32
to be somewhat of a shock to see news people out there on the
44:36
sidewalk. Yeah, so.
44:38
So when they pulled up, I wasn't surprised.
44:41
I knew somebody probably would have tipped them off, you know,
44:43
and, and that's, that's, that's what happened.
44:45
But but some of the guys at the halfway house were like, watch
44:48
the news here, you know, what are the And then so the director
44:51
comes out, looks at me and I'm just like, I, I don't know,
44:56
right. I've been in here.
44:57
I didn't call them, but I did warn them a week ago that people
45:02
knew when I was when I was, people knew when it was time for
45:06
me to leave. I can't be responsible for that.
45:08
But anyway, so I get out and, and that was kind of chaotic
45:14
and, and you know, it took a took a while for the, the
45:17
halfway house folks to understand what was happening
45:20
with BOP and they had to communicate and they end up
45:23
getting that sorted out. And then when I walked out of
45:26
prison, I had a phone call waiting on me and it was
45:29
Savannah Chrisley. She had called and I got on the
45:32
phone with her and, and she just said, hey, you know, I'm very
45:35
sorry this happened to you. Now for those who don't know,
45:39
Savannah, like her parents Todd and Julie just was pardoned a
45:44
week before that, so a couple weeks ago and they had this
45:47
huge. Part in that oh absolutely
45:49
dedicated her life to figure out how to make the connections and
45:54
do the things to to meet with the right people.
45:57
She spoke at the convention to make all kinds of connections
46:01
with people in the White House. I mean, she it's amazing what
46:05
Savannah was able to do and and you know, as far as a re entry
46:09
community, there's a lot of admiration for someone like that
46:12
that just, you know, puts their nose to the grindstone and just
46:15
goes just full tilt see what can get done.
46:18
Yeah, it's hard. It's.
46:19
Hard. It's hard.
46:21
Yeah, I mean she, she had been fighting for 2/2 plus years,
46:24
right, for her parents and I think she did and.
46:27
I think her parents, one had 14 years and one had 12 or 10, I
46:31
can't remember, but it was yeah, 2 long sentences.
46:34
Yeah, very long sentences. And and she had learned this
46:36
stuff. I mean, they had a reality TV
46:39
show too. I mean, she obviously had fame
46:41
from being a reality star, but there's so much more to Savannah
46:44
than that. In the in the BOP and and yeah,
46:47
who was in the BOP and who to get in time trying to get in
46:50
contact with anybody. And that orbit is is.
46:54
It's a magic act. It's it's very difficult, but I
46:57
will say that she is fierce when it comes to criminal justice
47:01
reform. Her heart is in that and, and,
47:04
and, and it's proof because once her mom and dad were pardoned,
47:08
she could have just said, OK, I'm done.
47:11
But I was the next guy. Yeah, Yeah, I was the next guy
47:16
that that she, that she, you know, got behind and, and you
47:19
know what was cool? One of the things she said in
47:21
that conversation that meant a lot to me, especially after the
47:24
reason why I was sent to prison, is she gets on the phone and she
47:27
says, you know what? I first just want to thank you
47:30
for your service. And man, that meant a lot
47:33
because I didn't feel like I was thanked for the service.
47:37
I felt like I was, I was penalized and criminalized for
47:40
my service. And so it was real nice to hear
47:42
that from someone else, someone outside of my, my, my major
47:46
support system and my, my family.
47:48
And, and to hear it from her that she recognized that so
47:51
quickly. And she just said, you know, I'm
47:53
committed to, to, to fighting injustice.
47:55
I'm committed to, to, to fighting this with you.
47:57
And we're here for you. And, and man, it was, it was
48:00
100% authentic. And I think sometimes people
48:02
underestimate her because she's young and, and she was, she grew
48:06
up on TV and, and, and, and, and she's a Pretty Woman and, and
48:10
they just think that that's, that's all that she, she is much
48:12
more than that. And I'll tell you, I wouldn't, I
48:14
wouldn't want to go toe to toe with her.
48:15
But, but it's not just me or it's not just her.
48:18
It's not just the people who are not, who are, are well known.
48:21
It's, it's she stands for criminal justice as a whole.
48:25
She doesn't want this to happen to anybody.
48:27
And, and I, I still, I'm in communication with her.
48:31
She's still very much doing what she has been doing.
48:35
Again, she's, she's highly committed to doing it.
48:37
So that was interesting. And then I talked to the media
48:40
for, for a minute and then I had to, obviously I had to hurry up
48:43
and get home because now you're, you're on the, you're on the
48:46
watch. And so I got home and when I
48:48
when I pulled up in my driveway, I had a a couple news channels
48:51
here from from another city. You know, Jeremy, I, I one of
48:55
the things I'm thinking is, is that your head is spinning
48:59
anyway when you get out of prison. 100%.
49:02
You're just trying to figure out how to jump back into society.
49:05
Yeah. And then you've got all this
49:07
going on. What?
49:09
What? How did you like?
49:10
Was it just like you were in a fog?
49:13
Yeah, I just, I, I remember thinking this is way too much
49:17
stimulation too soon, right? I mean, and there's a lot of Tik
49:21
Tokers and people that that have prison Tik Toks and things and
49:26
they get so much, so much traction.
49:28
And I'm going it's not that interesting.
49:31
Like it was the most mundane, boring, lifeless, oppressive
49:37
place on the planet in my opinion.
49:39
And now, and now all of a sudden I'm getting asked all these high
49:44
level questions. I have, I have Savannah calling
49:46
me, I have the director calling me.
49:49
And, and he did, he called me when I got home and, and, and he
49:53
got on the phone and said, how are you doing?
49:55
And I said, well, Sir, I'm, I'm better now.
49:56
He's good, you're better now. And, and he just told me, he
50:01
said, he said I'm still developing my leadership team.
50:04
But I will tell you that that I am committed to carrying out the
50:08
first step act consistently and thoroughly as well as a second
50:12
chance act. And we are looking at cases like
50:15
yours. So this wasn't just Jeremy
50:18
Harrell. He's looking at cases like mine.
50:20
And I will tell you that that they just brought on a deputy
50:23
director, Josh Smith, who is also have been incarcerated.
50:28
Yeah. Inmate which I think obviously
50:31
it's never been done. They had talked about it being
50:34
done both at the the director of prisons and then then they that
50:39
didn't happen. Then they made this the direct
50:41
director, deputy. And I tell you, when we're
50:46
talking about things like the BOP in an organization that
50:50
everybody from the guy that runs the Bureau of Prisons to Josh
50:55
Smith, they would all agree that it's broken.
50:58
Doing things like this, like that have never been done
51:01
before. And actually giving someone a
51:03
seat at the table that has been in the system, those are the
51:06
things that could change certain things because it's just a
51:12
different way to communicate about what's going on inside the
51:16
walls of the prisons. Yeah, I mean, it's, it's unheard
51:20
of #1 it's unheard of for a director to call an active
51:24
inmate once they leave. Yeah, because I think everybody,
51:29
you know, anybody I've talked to, everybody's thought is what
51:33
is Director Billy Marshall like you had a direct conversation
51:38
with him. Yeah.
51:39
So, you know, he he's, he's very serious about the changes that
51:44
need to be made within the the Bureau of Prisons.
51:47
In fact, he's exposing his own agency.
51:51
And, and, and, and Josh Smith, same thing.
51:53
Josh Smith has already been the deputy has already been
51:56
traveling to these prisons. They're very much transparent.
52:00
I think that's their, their major, you know, motivation is
52:04
to be more transparent, to let people know that, hey, we
52:07
recognize that we have these problems and this is what we're
52:10
going to do to fix it. And you know, for him to call me
52:13
directly and then to hire a guy who is a, who was a was a felon
52:16
before he was pardoned back in the the first Trump
52:19
administration, that tells a story that he doesn't see folks
52:24
like us, you know, the way that others may have seen us.
52:29
He knows that we're people we have, that we deserve to, to do
52:31
what we have to do to fulfill our obligation to do our
52:34
sentence, but to be able to come home when we're supposed to.
52:37
And he's very committed to trying and making sure that all
52:40
these prisons, all these facilities, they are consistent
52:43
with with the First Step Act. And so I really got that
52:46
authenticity when I was talking to him.
52:48
And I've talked to a lot of people and I don't always get
52:50
that, but I did with him. I like that, Jeremy and and you
52:53
know, that commitment that he's talking about with the first
52:55
step back and then making sure that I mean, that law was passed
53:01
in I think 2017. So, right, it still isn't fully
53:05
implemented and they still have had all kinds of problems for
53:08
getting people home that are supposed to be home.
53:12
And the second chance act, those things are things that they have
53:18
to have systems put in place to make sure that it runs properly
53:21
and the trains leave on time. And I and I feel like that these
53:25
are things that can be done if they're right.
53:27
People have their mind around it and, and, and put, you know,
53:31
the, the effort and the heft behind it to get it done because
53:33
there's so many different people just sitting there in prison
53:36
that really actually should be home from the first step act.
53:39
Oh, yeah, very much so. And, and again, I, I firmly
53:43
believe that of course it's, you can't do everything overnight,
53:47
but I firmly believe over time that that people will start to
53:50
see that. And, and, and they're very aware
53:53
that that this has been said before, right?
53:55
That there's been these talking points, but, but I've, I've
53:58
already seen them carry out some of the.
54:01
Yeah, I've already seen action. And he, and, you know, he was a,
54:03
he was a state trooper in West Virginia and he also ran the
54:06
West Virginia prison system. And, and, and so he has had
54:10
interaction with, with, with felons and, and folks in, in
54:14
prison. And, and he, I think he's
54:16
realized that not everybody there are bad people.
54:18
They made mistakes. And I think he's committed, you
54:21
know, because one thing he said to me, he said, you have earned
54:24
your right to go home, right? Because I, I, I, I did my, I
54:29
fulfilled my commitment to the VOP.
54:31
And you shouldn't be kept a single second later than that,
54:35
right? Because they're very good about
54:37
getting you there on time. That's right, right.
54:40
Nobody shows up late. They need to be just as good as
54:44
sending you home. And I think that's what their
54:46
commitment so far, and that's what I've seen them do.
54:49
So, Jeremy, you know, one of the things that we've talked about,
54:52
you and I have privately talked about, but I feel like we talk
54:55
about it here is that, yeah, you've been such a strong,
54:58
impactful voice going into this whole PTSD thing with the
55:03
veterans and, and, and, and became a leader, a spokesperson,
55:08
someone that people would listen to and wanted to hear from.
55:13
I have believed it is awful and horrific and what a nightmare
55:17
this has been for you as an individual and getting to know
55:21
you. I am confident that you are
55:24
going to be one of the most powerful voices for change in
55:30
this system and be able to speak about it in a way that people
55:35
understand it. Because that's why you've been
55:37
so good at being a communicator on something like PTSD that a
55:41
lot of people don't really understand very well.
55:42
But you're, you've been able to talk about it in a way because
55:45
it's, it's a lived experience, same as this experience.
55:48
This is a lived experience for you.
55:50
You've walked it, you've lived it.
55:51
You went to trial, which very, very few people get the the, the
55:56
elephant sized balls to do that which you did.
56:00
What do you think about going forward?
56:02
What's your what's, what's in your mind right now about what
56:06
Jeremy Harrell sees as your next frontier?
56:11
Well, you know, I think this is a new line, a new path of
56:14
advocacy for me. The same way that I love people
56:18
who have been traumatized from combat experience.
56:21
Also have a heart for the, for the men that are in there that,
56:24
that aren't terrible men that, that, that should be going home
56:27
when they're supposed to go home.
56:29
And, and what was interesting about that, while I was there,
56:31
there were guys who were writing stuff down to give me, right?
56:33
And they'd say, Hey, we're going to give this to you.
56:36
And I'd say, I don't know why you're giving it to me.
56:37
I'm in the same uniform you are, We're all in the same boat here.
56:40
But it's like, it's like they saw something.
56:42
It's like they, they just knew that, that I wouldn't be able to
56:45
leave that place and, and not say anything.
56:47
And, and, and since I've been out, you know, I'm still
56:50
considered under home confinement, but yet here I, you
56:53
know, I still have an opportunity to advocate for
56:57
these people. And, and there's not one day
57:00
that goes by that I don't think about those men that are still
57:02
there. And I just think that that's,
57:04
that's profound that way, right? That I I just want them to to
57:08
do. I kind of think, well, you and I
57:10
talked about last week, right, there's a feeling I wasn't in
57:14
the military, so I, I, I only analogized it to this is it you
57:18
get close to some people in there.
57:21
You know who they are, You know, they're they're kind of some of
57:24
the background story of how they were grown, how they grew up as
57:29
a kid and all those different things.
57:31
And it's like you're leaving them on the field and you're
57:33
going and they're staying. And that that does stick with
57:38
you. It does.
57:40
Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, you know,
57:43
spending time in prison, you know, getting, getting charged,
57:46
committing a crime, making a mistake shouldn't be a life
57:48
sentence. And right now, you know, the
57:51
prison, the prison time is kind of the easy part of it in a
57:54
sense, because you know, you, you got the felony, you got the,
57:57
the, the restitution that, that lasts forever.
57:59
You got the, the stigma that's attached to it.
58:02
It's not, that's not how it's supposed to work.
58:03
You're supposed, you know, you pay for your, you pay your debt
58:06
to society and then you should be free and clear.
58:08
And, and currently I'm working with a dear friend of, of both
58:10
of ours who is on this federal expungement initiative.
58:15
And I've been asked to, to, to come in on that and to help with
58:18
that. But, but we, we just got to get
58:21
out of the, the, the mindset that that these people deserve a
58:24
life of punishment. That's simply not the case.
58:27
Sure, I'm not saying that we should condone bad behavior.
58:31
We should break laws. But once someone pays the price
58:33
for that, they should, they should be able to go in with
58:35
their life and be productive and, and, and spend time with
58:38
their family and, and have another, another opportunity.
58:41
And this administration is an administration of second
58:43
chances. I mean, look at it.
58:45
I'm sorry. No, go ahead, Sir.
58:47
I didn't mean to interrupt her go.
58:48
Ahead, No, I was just going to say, you look at Alice Marie
58:50
Johnson, who's the pardon czar, spent a life sentence in prison.
58:54
You look at the deputy director of the BOP.
58:56
This is an administration who gets it.
58:59
President Donald Trump's real big on, on, on reform.
59:02
I mean, he's been through, he's been through it too, right?
59:05
So this is an administration that that cares.
59:07
And I and I believe we're going to see some dramatic change from
59:10
this, this group of leaders. So where you stand now you've
59:17
you've been in this world when you finally got home.
59:21
Yeah. I asked you back on episode 154
59:26
what your biggest take away was. Do you do you as far as going
59:31
through the prison part of it? Has any of that changed for you?
59:35
I mean as far as your take away through all the all the stuff
59:41
that you've got to to this point.
59:46
No, I mean, I, I would just, I would just word it different.
59:48
You know, I like to say that, that we're all 100% successful
59:53
at overcoming everything that we thought would kill us, right?
59:56
When we get, when we reach these, these hardships and we're
59:59
like, oh, this is going to be it.
1:00:00
Like I'll never recover from this.
1:00:02
And you know, I'm still in the middle of it.
1:00:03
I think it's important. I, I still, I'm still being
1:00:06
pursued and attacked, right? And, and I don't know what
1:00:09
tomorrow's going to look like, But what I do know is that that
1:00:12
this prepares us this this makes us stronger and it creates an
1:00:16
opportunity for us to look outside ourselves.
1:00:19
And humble ourselves and realize that, hey, we don't have a
1:00:22
monopoly over suffering, that there's a lot of people out
1:00:25
there in the same boat we are. And there's people who've
1:00:27
overcome it and went on to do great things.
1:00:29
In fact, you have a lot of those folks on your show who have
1:00:31
overcome this and went on to do great things.
1:00:34
That should be enough to get us to put 1 foot in front of the
1:00:37
other and just to take it, you know, step one, one day at a
1:00:40
time, right? One day at a time trying to get
1:00:42
better and, but, but don't, don't not take what you've
1:00:46
learned and, and, and, and utilize it to make this world
1:00:50
better. That would be the worst thing
1:00:51
you could do right, is to to take the the lessons learned and
1:00:54
just get rid of them and and put them away and not use that to
1:00:57
better this place and to encourage others in our same
1:01:00
situation. I 100% agree with you and I
1:01:03
think the and, and I'm going to enjoy working with you going
1:01:09
forward on some of these things too, Jeremy, because re entry is
1:01:13
something you just expressed about it shouldn't be a life
1:01:16
sentence. It's, it's strangely enough,
1:01:20
it's the one thing that's legal left, that's legal to
1:01:25
discriminate against. And, and we need to eliminate
1:01:29
that, that you to, to be able to discriminate against somebody
1:01:33
who has a record should be eliminated.
1:01:37
And we should be able to move forward from that and let that
1:01:39
person go live the best way they can live with the best
1:01:43
opportunities that they can provide for themselves and and
1:01:47
not put a stranglehold on them the rest of their life with the
1:01:51
ex felon tag that that limits them to housing, limits them to
1:01:55
jobs, limits them to joint groups, limits them to all the
1:01:58
different clubs, all these things.
1:02:00
It shouldn't be legal to do that.
1:02:03
Right. And that and what you just said,
1:02:05
that's that's the real way to reduce recidivism.
1:02:08
That's it. Get rid of the stigma, get rid
1:02:11
of the felony. I mean, here's the deal.
1:02:13
If if you've been a drug dealer and you've done wrong, you went
1:02:15
to prison and you get out and you can't get a job at
1:02:18
McDonald's and then, but you're going to, you're going to feed
1:02:22
your family. Well, then what's going to
1:02:24
happen? You're going to fall back into
1:02:25
the ways where you know you can get enough money to do that.
1:02:27
I'm not saying that's right. I'm just saying that that's,
1:02:30
that's what happens. That's what recidivism is.
1:02:33
We have to I, I really believe and I don't know how we can do
1:02:35
it, but I'll never stop trying is once you've fulfilled your
1:02:38
your your sentence, your obligation, you should be free
1:02:41
and clear. You should not Yeah, right.
1:02:44
Yeah, right. You should not carry this felony
1:02:48
on your record for the for your whole life.
1:02:51
I mean, I think that's the only way that we get ahead of
1:02:54
recidivism. Otherwise, we're going to keep
1:02:56
saying and, and you know what, in some aspects, not in this
1:02:59
administration, but before, I think that's, that's part of the
1:03:01
business. You want repeat customers,
1:03:03
right? That's how you get repeat
1:03:04
customers. And it's very sad because, well,
1:03:06
these are people's lives, you know, and.
1:03:09
And the numbers are so crazy, you know, 2/3 in three years,
1:03:12
3/4 and five recidivate so that that number doesn't make any
1:03:18
sense. And the reason why is because
1:03:20
there's way, way, way too many barriers in the way of people
1:03:25
just trying to get a job, just trying to get a house.
1:03:29
And if you're not able to get a job, a house or be able to open
1:03:31
up a bank account, try try to see how long you can last.
1:03:36
Unless you've got somebody that's really helping you out,
1:03:39
that's giving you a lifeline. A lot of those people don't.
1:03:42
Yeah, well, I mean, the bank thing is something I've had to
1:03:45
deal with, right, Because mine's considered quote UN quote, a
1:03:47
financial crime. I've been kicked out of banks
1:03:50
and things like that. But but the other, the other
1:03:52
part of that is, you know, when you think about once you get out
1:03:56
of prison and you do your home confinement or your halfway
1:03:59
house, then maybe you have five years in probation.
1:04:03
Technically, depending on the probation officer, hopefully
1:04:06
they don't do this. But if you got 1 speeding
1:04:08
ticket, that could be enough to send you back to prison for the
1:04:11
remainder of your term. That's that's insanity.
1:04:15
I mean, there's. A There's a huge percentage I
1:04:17
can't, I don't have in front of me what that percentage is of
1:04:19
the percentage of people that are in prison that have violated
1:04:23
their probation and some technicality that that sent them
1:04:26
back. Yeah.
1:04:28
So my hope is that I can be part of that solution, that I can
1:04:30
bring ideas and I can testify before Congress and talk, get in
1:04:34
the get in the meetings with these directors and deputy
1:04:37
directors and say, hey, come on, let's be real here.
1:04:40
Let's be realistic and and you can't have that expectation of
1:04:44
perfection, especially if you're not giving anybody the tools
1:04:46
they need to to attain it. And so, so yeah, I hope, I hope
1:04:50
I get a seat at the table and I, I think I will.
1:04:52
I think we're on our way. I I think you will too.
1:04:54
And I want to we got talking here so I I forgot to mention
1:04:57
the white collar support group. Yeah, yeah.
1:05:00
It's sponsored by this this podcast sponsored by the White
1:05:04
Collar support groups. First support group, devoted
1:05:06
people navigating the white collar criminal justice system.
1:05:09
I'm a member of the white collar support group.
1:05:11
I've got Jeremy there and I can tell you this is a bunch of
1:05:13
people who help each other through the criminal justice
1:05:15
journey for free. Whether you're just starting
1:05:17
your journey, you've made it through to the other side, this
1:05:19
is a great space for you. Join us on Zoom, 7:00 PM Eastern
1:05:22
Time, 4:00 PM Pacific. And a lot of people, you and I
1:05:26
haven't talked about this, Jeremy, but a lot of people
1:05:29
don't like how they show up online because when they get
1:05:31
out, they have Google to deal with.
1:05:34
Well, Drew Chapin, both of us know part of the white collar
1:05:40
support group. He's got a company that's called
1:05:42
the discoverability company. And whether you're building your
1:05:45
reputation from scratch, repairing your search results
1:05:47
after a negative news story, discoverability can help you
1:05:51
with this. It can also help you how you're
1:05:53
portrayed on popular a a services like ChatGPT.
1:05:56
It's called discoverability. Go to discoverability.co,
1:05:59
not.com.co. They've even got a do it
1:06:03
yourself SEO option, of course, for individuals who want to make
1:06:07
do their search results on their own budget and speed listeners a
1:06:10
nightmare success and take $100 off the DIYSEL course with
1:06:14
coupon code nightmare success. So Jeremy, I really appreciate
1:06:18
you coming on. Yeah.
1:06:20
And and and doing this second round and maybe we'll be doing a
1:06:25
third round. Once you get into the world.
1:06:26
Where you're you're, you're the. The.
1:06:28
Spokesperson that's going out there and making these meeting
1:06:33
in front of Congress and meeting with the directors and and we
1:06:35
start seeing these different changes going on and.
1:06:38
Yes, Sir. And, and you mentioned
1:06:40
expungement, that's, that's something that you and me and,
1:06:42
and a, a bunch of other people are, are going to work on for,
1:06:45
for the federal side, which there's a lot of work going on
1:06:48
on the state side on that. That's made some, some big
1:06:50
progress. So hopefully we can make some
1:06:52
work happen on the, on the federal side because it would
1:06:54
make a big, big change. And pardon, Pardon's a big deal,
1:06:58
but expungement would be even bigger.
1:07:00
Yes, 100%. Anything else Jeremy we left
1:07:04
out? No, this was a good
1:07:06
conversation. It's always good.
1:07:08
I love, I love coming here and talking with you.
1:07:10
And you know, I'm just taking it day by day and seeing what the
1:07:14
what, what comes, what comes next.
1:07:16
Of course, you know, we are actively seeking a pardon.
1:07:19
I've been told I'm a top candidate from 1:00, but but
1:07:22
that's, that's a rare thing. So we'll see how it goes.
1:07:24
But no matter what, whether I get it or whether I don't, I'm
1:07:27
going to continue this effort. And at least people out there
1:07:30
watching this that are just as impacted, just know that that
1:07:33
you have me on your team, that I, that I got your back.
1:07:36
And I come from a long line of, of culture in the military where
1:07:39
when we say we got your six, we got your six.
1:07:41
So just know that you you have somebody willing to fight for
1:07:44
you. So if anybody has any questions,
1:07:45
they can reach me and they can reach out to me, send me an
1:07:49
e-mail or something and I'd I'd love to chat with him.
1:07:51
I I'm glad you got our six because you're you're a good man
1:07:54
and I'm I'm proud to know you and I know you're going to do
1:07:58
great things. Jeremy talking about grateful
1:08:00
stuff. I want to thank homestead
1:08:02
financial for all this podcast set up in here.
1:08:05
If you got home mortgage needs go to Greg after you have he
1:08:07
knows all of his stuff. If you're looking for a book out
1:08:10
that you need to you need to find one out there to read to
1:08:12
kill your time. I've got one nightmare success.
1:08:15
Go to Amazon, Barnes and Noble. If you want to know anything
1:08:19
more about what I've got going on, go to brentcassidy.com.
1:08:21
I spell it wrong. I spell it with ATY, not a DY,
1:08:25
as I used to say, as I was writing my emails back and forth
1:08:29
from Leavenworth. Stay strong.
1:08:31
I'll do the same. Jeremy Harrell, you are a good
1:08:34
man. Keep doing good stuff and.
1:08:36
We'll be in touch. All right.
1:08:38
Sounds good. Nightmare success in and out.