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Makeup · Why We Do What We Do

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: You're listening to why we do what we do? Welcome
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: to why we do what we do. I am your
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: made up host, Abraham, and I'm your.
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: Struggling to find a foundation that matches my skin tone
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: host Shane.
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: We are a psychology podcast. We talk about all of
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: the things that humans and non human animals do, and
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: sometimes we talk about stuff that we do to change
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: and augment our appearance for a variety of reasons.
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: Yes, and so today we are talking about makeup, and shockingly,
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: it is actually way more complex than simply talking about
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: what we apply to our face and skin.
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: Yes, there's an interesting history here and I'm excited to
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: get into it. And if you are joining us for
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: the first time, I would like to say welcome. I
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: really hope that you enjoy what you hear in this
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: discussion today. I will also notes that I think I
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: have allergies or something's going on with my nose, so
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: I probably sound a little weird, and I apologize to
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: anyone who is catching that, but hopefully I will come
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: through as articulately as I possibly can and still deliver
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: just the most stellar episode.
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: That's the goal. That's the goal. So and then when
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: we're all done, He's going to have some tea and
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: lay down and rest because we have to. We have
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: to rest, right, I don't know. Maybe you have tea.
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't know what you do for
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: your remedies. I grew I grew up drinking ginger ale
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: and watching prices right as my remedies for being sick.
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: So sure, sure, okay. Anyway, that was for people who
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: were joining us for the first time. If you were
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: a returning listener, then welcome back. We're happy to have you.
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: I hope that you continue to find some joy and
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: utility out of what we do in our discussions. And
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: either way, if you are in either of those groups
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: and you have not already supported us, you can do
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: so by joining us Over on Patreon. You can head
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: to our merch store and pick up some merch. You
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: can leave us a rating and a review like subscribe,
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: tell a friend or any of those type related behaviors
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: that I did not mention that are the same type
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: of thing, and then I'll talk more about that at
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: the end of this discussion. But I think I'm ready
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: to just start off by wishing everyone a happy Chambarazzo day. Yeah, chimbarazzo, chimbarazzo.
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: Not sure what that means, but happy day whatever that is.
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: It's also Impersonate Authority Day, so I don't know, dude,
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: with caution, I guess.
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, quite illegal most of the time.
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: Love conquers all day. Oh that's cute. Ah.
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: It's National Chocolate macaroon Day.
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: Great. It's National egg Day.
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: Really powerful structure in nature, really interesting stuff.
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: It is National itch Day. What a terrible thing to celebrate.
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: Right, yeah, who wants that? And it is repeat Day.
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: I said Repeat Day.
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: Ah, that's fun. I bet that's really cool for people
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: who like to hear things one time. It's also World
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: Bicycle Day.
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: It is World club Foot Day. Maybe also called Oedipus Day.
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: Maybe, I don't know. It's a bed Bug Awareness Week.
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: Ooh okay. It is Black Single Parents Week, will see you?
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, it is Canadian Environment Week.
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: It is n Mountain top Removal Week. Feels important?
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that feels important. Stop giving mountains haircuts. You know
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: what I'm saying. It's a National Migraine and Headache Awareness Week.
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: Oh I am aware, I have I'm sorry, month month
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: of month, like the entire month.
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, be aware they suck. It is National Portuguese
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: Heritage Month.
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: Ooh, it's National pollinators Month.
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: Oh thought we need those National soul food Month.
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: Growing up in the South, like there's nothing. There's nothing
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: like like just really good soul food, like really authentic culture,
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: like oh so good. Yeah, it's a National candy month
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: as well.
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  Speaker 1: Is that a soul food?
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: It fills my soul? I'll say, all right, But.
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: We don't just talk about dates. That's just a fun
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: thing that we list at the top of these discussions
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: because we can, you know, yes, And so as we
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: mentioned though, we are actually talking about cosmetics, makeup, the history,
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: the whys, the psychology if you will, around all of this,
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: and we often do a nice deep dive into the
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: history of things because often enough, that is where we
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: find a lot of the whys for the things that
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: we do, or the answers to why. I suppose is
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: illustrating where it came from to begin with. And although
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: those things do shift over time, and we will talk
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: about that today, it's just a useful exercise I believe
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: in walking through sort of the development of cultural and
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: social behavior patterns, particularly ones of this nature that have
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: endured for quite some time.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think when you start doing historic dives on
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: like certain behavior, you start discovering and that like maybe
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: originally it served a particular function and it carried on
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: as a tradition or took on a new function of
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: like you know, like a new purpose in the modern world,
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: or it just didn't ever evolve into having some sort
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: of modern function, and it's just something that we continue
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: to do regardless, Right, So I think that you'll see that.
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: That's I think that's my favorite thing about diving into history,
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: is that you know, something that was once functional and
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: practical for a society may no longer be, but we
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: continue to practice it anyway.
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So makeup is or cosmetics maybe more broadly, is
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: one of those I think interesting things that you could
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: consider technology, but a sort of ish low tech development,
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: although it's also super high tech in other ways, or
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: at least it's become that way, but as you said,
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: it's something that has persisted now for some time. But
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: before we even get into the history of makeup, I
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: think we need to spend a little bit of time
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: defining what we mean, like what does cosmetics or makeup include?
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: What is that category? Because for instance, you might even
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: include things like soaps, sunscreens, deodorants, all of those things,
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: and those as part of the sort of cosmetics line,
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: because these can be decorative as well as practical, right, right,
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: So you can imagine something like washing yourself not only
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: helps eliminate like bacteria and dirt, but also then like
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: that has health implications of you be less likely to
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: have an infection or develop a sore, or it might
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: help speed up the recovery of some kind of scar
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: or injury. So like there it is esthetic, but it
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: also has a practical sort of maybe even medical use.
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: Right absolutely, Speaking of different types of cosmetics and stuff,
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: one thing that comes up is tattoos. And oldest mummy
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  Speaker 2: discovered ever discovered, autzy Otzi was covered in tattoos. And
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: this is a mummy from about five three hundred years ago, right,
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: so it's really old mummy, like just the old old bones,
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: old bodies.
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: Now, perhaps tattoos do count as a form of makeup,
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: and today we do use tattoos for makeup, like we
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: tattooed eyebrows, lipliner, eyeliner. You'll see that sometimes for cosmetic reasons,
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: not just for aesthetic reasons.
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: And even if we're talking about things that alter our appearance,
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: like and even if you want to limit it to
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: like skin, would that include things potentially like jewelry or piercings.
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: Would it include things that are like skin tight and
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: meant to look like skin, sort of like pantyhose often does, right,
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  Speaker 1: And so what sort of constitutes cosmetics and makeup in
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: this space is a little bit tricky to pin down.
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  Speaker 1: Now Here we're referring to substances that are applied to
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  Speaker 1: the skin or hair to create visual aesthetic alterations to
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: one's appearance. And I do think that we could more
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: or less consider tattoos to be kind of in that category,
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  Speaker 1: particularly because they are used in an identical way as
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: makeup in some instances. So, as I mentioned, like I
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: suppose you could include clothing and jewelry, But for this
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: discussion like that, it would be such a difficult task
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  Speaker 1: just to talk about the history of jewelry or right
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: alone clothing like that's a lot. So we're really sticking
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  Speaker 1: instead to the things you usually think of as makeup.
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: We're going to be talking about lipstick, blush, mescerra, eyeliner,
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  Speaker 1: those sorts of things. In describing the history of makeup here.
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  Speaker 2: Right, So thinking about those that you know, something that
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: we're applying to our skin, you know, types of paints, powders,
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  Speaker 2: you know, oils, things like that. Egyptians are often credited
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  Speaker 2: with kicking off the use of makeup. So besides all
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: the other contributions from Egyptians, yeah, you know, and Egyptian culture,
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: you know, makeup is also one of them now, with
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: dates ranging from about ten thousand years ago from some
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: sources to about seven thousand years ago from others. Both
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  Speaker 2: men and women in Egypt were scented perfumes to cover
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  Speaker 2: body odor and soften their skin, and might also have
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: been used in religious rituals.
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  Speaker 1: On top of that, they also use a substance that
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  Speaker 1: I think got it became relatively widespread. It was called coal,
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: and not the coal you're thinking of that you might
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: burn for heat, but kohl, like the department store chain.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, And this substance was a mixture of copper, lead, ash,
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  Speaker 1: and burnt almonds. And they use this as a dark eyeliner.
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  Speaker 1: And it was fairly thickly applied, like it wasn't like
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  Speaker 1: the pencil drawn on eyeline. And you're more likely to
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  Speaker 1: see today it was pretty obvious and how it was applied,
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  Speaker 1: and it was often right around the eyes, and it
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  Speaker 1: would sometimes extend slightly off past the eye, almost like
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: given the appearance kind of fake eyelashes. And if you
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: imagine what you might see in like Egyptian hieroglyphs, you
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  Speaker 1: might sort of picture what I'm talking about with like
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  Speaker 1: the line that sort of extends from the outermost corner
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  Speaker 1: of the eye kind of back a little bit in
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  Speaker 1: sort of a straight line.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, And they might also use various pigments as
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  Speaker 2: blush and eye shadows around their eyelids and under their eyebrows.
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  Speaker 2: And interestingly, and we aren't clear about how intentional this is,
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  Speaker 2: but this may have served a practical purpose. So the
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  Speaker 2: coal may have been thought to ward off evil spirits,
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  Speaker 2: but also it may have reduced swelling around the eyes
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: and may have had antibacterial qualities, which is really fascinating.
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: The eyeliner in the various other makeups worn by Egyptians
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: may have also served as sunblock, which would have been
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: quite practical in a desert sun. So, like in places
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: where you know you are exposed to sun perpetually, it's
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: probably quite useful to have something to prevent a lot
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: of sunburn.
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so I mean you've got these these makeups that
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: helped protect against real dangers like potentially insects which may
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: have been carrying diseases, against any other bacterias that you
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: may have inadvertently gotten in or around your eyes somehow
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: or other parts of your body, and a sun block
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: in a way that would then prevent you potentially from
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: developing like skin cancers or even just getting like dried, cracked,
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: worn out skin that can come from that. Now that
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: being said, like they were while they were potentially useful
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: and protecting against these real dangers, these were also like
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: simultaneously poisoning them with horrifically toxic chemicals. Right, you heard
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: us say, like copper lead, Like those were things in here.
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: So those are not things that are ultimately good when
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: being constantly applied to your body. Right, And there is
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: your We're going to see this in the history of makeup,
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: it would be a very very long time before medical
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: safety was even an important consideration in makeup and cosmetic manufacturing.
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, like thousands of years difference. So yeah, literally,
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: as we're kind of unpacking this, I think it's probably
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: important to recognize that. You know, we got to do
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: ads and hopefully this ad is a makeup ad.
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: You know, it's maybe lean, maybe it's Babe Lean. I say,
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: I'm sure I totally messed that up. There's like a
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: way to that. They think that, they say that is
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: what they're jingle, and I didn't say correctly.
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: So I think it's okay. I mean, you know, I
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: don't know how often you wear makeup, so it's perfectly fine.
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: It's outside of your skill set.
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: Or pay attention to ads. Speaking of that, we just
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: we just played will probably be name dropping a whole
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: bunch of major manufacturers because it's nearly impossible to do
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: if you want to unpack the history here, sure, sure,
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: all right, So we were talking about ancient Egyptian culture,
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: ancient Chinese cultures us things such as gum, arabic gelatin, beeswax,
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: and egg to stain their fingernails a bright color, so
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: it's like fingernail polish, but more like a deck stain,
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: if you will. And this was used often to indicate
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: social class, and only certain sort of stations or classes
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: were allowed to use certain color palettes at this point,
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: so silver and gold was reserved for the highest royals,
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: so the most elite, and then you might be able
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: to wear black or red for lesser nobles, although you
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: were still noble, and lower classes were totally forbidden from
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: applying color to their nails in a way that would
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: have them appear as if they were above their sort
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: of a sign and station if you will.
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, oh, weird a thing reserved for the rich and
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: only for the rich. Like, right, it's weird that shows
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: up in history all the time. We'll talk about that
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: more as we go too. So now, ancient tribes around
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: the world would have also applied makeup during wars, and
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: some believe that this may have originated with Nordic traditions
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: among the Vikings, while others dispute this claim, and American
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: indigenous peoples and other cultures around the world at some
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: point did start applying makeup for battle, sometimes called war
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: paint if you will. Yeah, there's lots of different terms
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: for it. So they would apply makeup for battle, which
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: may have been intended as camouflage as a sort of
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: uniform to tell which warriors belong to which tribe or
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: which side, or to appear intimidating, and most of the
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: information we found on this was actually pretty speculative. We
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: don't have a lot of really apparent information on this, and.
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: To be fair, I could have done more digging, and
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: I plan to maybe do a follow up on this
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: issue of like war paint and how that might have
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: been used. But you can see the parallels like that
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: this is a thing that you put esthetically on your skin,
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: has some particular color and it's meant to serve some
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: purpose in a specific setting, in this case battle. But
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: moving on, So fifteen hundred to three thousand years ago,
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: fifteen hundred years ago, maybe I said that backwards Chinese,
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: Japanese and Greek cultures were applying mixtures of light or
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: even white face paint Grecon Grecian Greek women, I'm not
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: sure I.
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: Say that Grecian, I think is the way.
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: I think Grecian. Yeah, I think that's how it hurt
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: it as well. So these women would use white lead
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: paint mixtures sort of paint if you will. This is
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: like face makeup type stuff, and would apply mulberries as
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: rouge to their cheeks. So they would paint their face
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: as this like lead based white paint, and then would
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: try and redden their cheeks a bit, and they might
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: also use oxen hairs to thicken their eyebrows, so they'd
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: like sort of get an adhesive and sort of stick
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: oxen hair in there. You want those nice, thick, ox
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: like eyebrows. Cot very attractive. Asian women were using rice
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: powder to whiten their faces and would also shave off
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: their eyebrows and might also paint their teeth black or gold.
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: Interesting. Now, in India, various decorative skin augmentation colors were used,
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: but one of the most popular was hennah tattoos, which
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: were particularly popular during important ceremonies such as weddings and
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: in religious rituals. Henna tattoos are really fascinating as well,
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: because it's like it's like a dye. It's not like
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: a straight up like makeup like you would apply, Like
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: it's a dye that stays in your skin for quite
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: some time.
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I looked up a decent amount about hennah for
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: this discussion or for this episode, and yeah, it's like
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: a combination of a whole bunch of different chemicals that
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: they sort of figured out would leave long lasting sort
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: of stains in your skin. They would eventually go away,
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: but like you might get a couple of weeks or
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: more out of them, and they would do these just
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: really intricate patterns for the which is really cool. Yeah,
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: they're really beautiful. I love seeing the really neat art
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: people came up with in their use of hennah to
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: sort of create these these intric patterns. So anyway, there
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: was sort of a common theme starting to emerge in this,
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: particularly with the Greek and the Chinese and Japanese, and
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: this carried over in a lot of different places, and
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: we will see more of that, which is this use
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: of white or very light skin here, painting the face
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: white light to the point of being almost blindingly white
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: skin was often seen as this pinnacle of beauty, like
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: that was really what you were trying to achieve. Sometimes
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: there was religious significance here, or it was used to
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: indicate your again being upper class. This was also used
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: among sex workers at various points. It was used for
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: actors at various points. It might have been used to
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: sort of cover over things like blemishes and whatnot. And
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: I think it just generally create a very homogeneous sort
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: of texture of the face. And then there are lots
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: of other reasons that people would have turned to this
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: and using these heavy face paints. But yeah, this idea
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: of like very very light colors became very calm and
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: a pretty large number of places, particularly in the Northern
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: hemisphere really for those people who are looking for what
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: they sort of considered beautiful.
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: Right now, in ancient Rome, makeup was actually not very
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: popular everybody. I mean, to be fair, I think it
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: was a pretty like a the vibe was pretty chill
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: in Rome, except for all the I guess murder. I mean,
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: everybody was wearing bunch sheets and stuff like that. So
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: what they did, though, is they put mixtures of flour
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: and butter on pimples to cover them, and they also
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: used mixtures of sheep's fat and blood to stain or
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: paint their fingernails. And apparently they may have also found
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: a way to bleach hair to create a blonde hair look,
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: which was more popular among men than women.
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they wanted to get that sweet frosted tip look.
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: Bunch of sugar rays running around out there.
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: Yes, agent all right. During the Elizabethan era in Europe,
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: women often wanted to emulate royalty, and Queen Elizabeth had
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: this bright red hair and she painted her basically everything
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: you could see she painted her face, her neck and
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: a visible chest this like pale white color. You look
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: up pictures of her and you're going to see someone
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: who looks like they're made of porcelain, right, Yeah, So
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: because this is how she looked, women would dye their
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: hair to try and create that red color. They and
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: just like with Queen Elizabeth, they would paint their faces
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: and their necks in their chest this very very light color.
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: And this again lead based paint is the again what
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: we're getting at to here. And famously Elizabeth had this
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: very prominent forehead, which may have been in part due
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: to the fact that lead paint would have caused her
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: hair to fall out. So she was painting her forehead,
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: she'd have to like paint further and further back because
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: her hair is basically receding because of all the leads
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: she is exposing her hair to.
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, pretty much like like everybody's putting on makeup, but
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: they're just poisoning themselves, right So, like and they don't know,
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: they don't know that they're doing that because they don't
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: realize that lead is incredibly toxic for people. Yeah, Now,
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: the PRUDESI and morally righteous Europeans during the Victoria Araa era.
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: What they saw was heavy makeup, light face paints, lipstick,
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: and fingernail paints as belonging to actors and sex workers.
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: Shocking that the morally righteous would have a problem with
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: people doing things and not hurting anybody. Now, these actors
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: were definitely lower class folks. They were identified as lower
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: class folks in Queen Victoria publicly called makeup improper. So instead,
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: most women preferred natural makeup looks that only suddenly affected
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: their appearance, covering blemishes, tweezing eyebrows, stuff like that, to
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: have uniform shapes. So they really only did minor cosmetic
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: alterations and not really major the kind of more theatric
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: looking makeup style.
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, very much so. All right, Then Americans got involved,
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: and Americans led a vast, rapid and expansive development in
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: the cosmetics industry. In the eighteen eighties, the California Perfume Company,
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: which was actually located in New York for some reason,
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: started selling perfumes and other products and rapidly rapidly grew
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: selling millions of units. Later, they would package together toothpaste,
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: powdered cleanser, and a vanity set, and they called this
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: package Avon. Huh so yeah, if that name stands out
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: to you. The company would then later rebrand themselves as Avon,
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: and I want to say the early nineteen hundreds, like
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: nineteen twelve or something in there.
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: Yep, And here we are, so Avon still exists and
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: people still get invited to Avon parties, which is fun. Now,
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: there were many small women owned cosmetic companies starting up
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: during this time as well, but for the most part,
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: what you're going to find is that most of the
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: cosmetic industry is run by men. Yeah weird.
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the Avon was there were some women who were
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: fairly successful, but either what they would do is like
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: run the sort of mom and pop shop operation where
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: they were primarily the entrepreneur who was running a lot
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: of things, or else they would be sort of eaten
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: up by these larger companies and form the sort of
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: conglomerates that way. Now, so we're in the sort of
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: late eighteen hundreds here, right, And there were at this
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: point photography, I mean, photography had been around for a while,
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: but like people were starting to get their photograph taken
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: more and more often, and it was becoming an industry.
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: And so when people would spend if people were going
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: to be getting their photograph, they would spend time very
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: carefully applying their cosmetics and makeup to look their best
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: so that like that one time they got a picture,
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: they would show up in a very particular way in
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: that picture. And obviously they had no idea that photography
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: would ever be easy as it is today. But at
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: the time, you can imagine if you had only one
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: photo ever taken of you in your whole life, you're
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: going to do your best to ensure that you look
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: your best for that photo. Probably it would be my guess.
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: Sure. At the same time, you know, we're starting to
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: see movies being made, and so actors, like stage actors
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: of old, would wear makeup as part of their costuming
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: for films or even for like lighting on film. So
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: when they started kind of figuring out how lighting and
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: different colors show up on film, they would use makeup
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: for those effects as well. So a lot of times
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: they would use you know, like really pale paint to
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: make sure that their skin showed up, or in some
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: situations they would use different colors. And we still see
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: this happening, right, So we saw this on WandaVision where
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: for the black and white portions of the show vision
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: was actually painted blue and not red because blue shows
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: up better when it's black and white versus red red makeup.
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: So some interesting things like that.
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, very interesting for sure. And yeah, so this also
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: meant then that like there was some amount of increasing
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: in popularity and makeup because with movies came sort of
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: celebrity status, which was not the case for actors in
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: the past, and so people started to want to kind
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: of look how these people who these actors looked. To
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: some point, that being said, the country was still pretty
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: conservative and makeup was often seen as sort of garish
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: and improper, at least sort of early on in the
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: nineteen hundreds that was kind of initially felt that like
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: where in makeup was not really necessary in borderline inappropriate.
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: Right, And now you have, you know, people like the
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: Kardashians who are just like, you know, hawking makeup all
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: over the place and usually do that through ads. So
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: we're still continuing down the path on the history of
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: makeup and where it came from and kind of how
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: it sorted the steamroll a little bit. We're at the
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: place where movies are being made celebrity is a big deal.
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: And what we're starting to see is that a very
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: common name starts to come up at this point, and
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: that name is Max Factor, which is maybe the coolest name, right,
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: maybe the second coolest name behind Max Power. So Max
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: sold wigs to movie productions in Hollywood, and he eventually
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: developed a novel grease paint foundation that would not crack
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: or cake up when applied and as had been with
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: like the issue with other makeups that existed, and actors
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: much preferred this makeup and used it in their personal
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: lives as well. So it started to become more popular
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: in the public as a result of kind of this
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: this this really useful and long lasting makeup that like,
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: for me, I've I've worn Greece paint. I can't stand
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: the way that it feels like it makes me. It
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: makes me uncomfortable. Sure, but I get like why people
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: would want that versus something that is more cakey and
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: dries out.
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I would say, compared to what was available, it
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: was probably quite luxurious to have that.
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: And so yeah, he found a lot of commercial success
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: in the cosmetics industry from the production of this. In Factor,
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: who we didn't mention before, but he was a Polish
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: American cosmetician who had worked as the cosmetics expert for
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: the Russian royal family WOW earlier in his career before
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: immigrating to the United States. He went on to develop
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: such famously well known tools that you might know now
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: as the eyebrow pencil and lip gloss. And he's actually
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: the person, like the person who's credited with coming up
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: with the term makeup. So up until this point, like
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: people may have referred to things as cosmetic or like
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: powders or paints, but the broad category of makeup didn't
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: really have a very clear name until Max I was
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: gonna say max power max factor came up with this
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: term that we all now know and love.
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Now, women had been attempting to augment their eyelashes
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: using various strategies for some time. And on a quick
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: side note, we want to point out the current trend
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: right now that like dudes that identify themselves as alpha
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: males are now shaving off their eyelashes because they're basically
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: deeming that they're too feminine, which is one very ridiculous Yeah.
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: So this made me think of it because we're talking
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: about women in their eyelashes and you're like, okay. So
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: people were augmenting their eyelashes in quite a few ways,
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: but it wasn't until nineteen fifteen that chemist T. L.
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: Williams developed a mixture of petroleum jelly and cold dust
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: to help his sister Mabel, who wanted some color augmentation
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: for her eyelashes, and which was eventually called mascara. He
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: went on to a little brand called Mabolene, named for
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: his sister. So isn't that fun?
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: Yes? Yes, indeed. And not the same coal kohl dust
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: as before. This is the coal as in the coal
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: you had burned in a fire. Coh charcoal? Yeah, charcol Yeah, exactly.
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: There had been various attempts to get something like mescara
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: before this, But this is where mascara came from. Is
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: this nineteen fifteen CHEMISTL. Williams who founded Maybolene.
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Maybolene invented mascaro, which is wild.
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, right, claim to fame for sure. Interestingly, or to
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: talk about cars for a second, because in the nineteen twenties,
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: Ford and other car companies were experimenting with quick drying
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: lackers for car paints, and although Ford initially had the
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: edge on this, other manufacturers started coming up with their
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: own quick drying paints to compete with them. The reason
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: this is related to makeup is because the cosmetic industry
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: was watching this play out and they decided to borrow
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: that same technology, this quick drying lacquer, and started manufacturing
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: liquid nail polish. There is a story about a I
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: forget what his profession was. His name was, I want
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: to say, Charles Ravaughan or something like that. He went
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: on to eventually found what became the company that became
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: Revlon So Wild.
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there are various cultural shifts among that brought different
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: attitudes and trends in like kind of the use of
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: makeup and different styles. The Flappers in the nineteen twenties
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: tended to adopt heavier makeups and more overt use of
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: makeup as part of their rebelliousness and flamboyant self expression.
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: And styles continue to ebb and flow with the times,
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: and they still continue to eb and flow with the times.
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: Like I think of like when we were like the
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: let's say, like late two thousands or like late nineties,
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: early two thousands, where everybody thought really like really thin
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: eyebrows were the style. Yeah, and now it's a little
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: bit different, Like just like there's all sorts of styling
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: that happens across decades. It's pretty fascinating.
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's true.
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: It was.
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: I think we're at a time now where it seems
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: like things are maybe the most eclectic. Like there are
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: still trends like that are more popular for a while
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: and we see them a lot, and then they kind
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: of go away. But it seems like we're at the
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: most sort of eclectic that it's ever been in the
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: most individual like people can try to choose whatever, which
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: you know, more power to them.
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure.
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: So we were talking about the ebb and flow of
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: sort of makeup over time. There is a name a
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: lot of people might recognize. Coco Chanel began to popularize
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: the notion of tan's skin as beautiful, because again, up
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: until the early nineteen hundreds, this idea of sort of
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: washing your face out with very light colors, which was
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: much more common now. One source that I found claimed
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: that what happened was Coco Chanell had been traveling for
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: something I don't know, if it was photography or it's
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: a leisure trip, I don't remember, but had sort of
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: naturally acquired a deep tan just due to regular sun exposure.
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: And then when she came back to the United States
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: and sort of shows up and is like this really
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: sort of tan look, this was seen as a fashion statement,
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: and soon people wanted to emulate the same look for
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: sort of aesthetic reasons. And so you get this industry
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: around pigmentation that would influence tanning, or like special things
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: that are meant to encourage tanning, and of course the
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: scourge of tanning beds that plague us now.
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: Sure, and the tax breaks you get for having them apparently,
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: which is like a whole different conversation. Now. The early
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: nineteen hundred saw various manufacturing and consumer advocacy groups develop
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: in that time, and these pushed for more safety testing,
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: regulations and guidelines on makeup production, because, as we mentioned before,
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: we're talking about makeup that you're applying to your skin,
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: that you're applying to the largest organ in your body
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: that is absorbing everything that you put on it. And
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: so when you have lead based or like radioactive paints
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: or tools that you're using and you're absorbing that into
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: your skin, it's probably not the most healthy situation you
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: could be in.
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So there was some early attempts at this early
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: in the nineteen hundreds, but then like it really wasn't
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: until the mid nineteen hundreds, like we're in like the
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: fifties and stuff, that you saw actual regulations start to
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: happen around like what could and could not be in makeup.
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: It's just wild to think that it's like less than
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: a century old that we have cared about like the
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: level of toxicity of things that we put on our
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: skin every day, right even when like it was known
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: to some point that some of those things were dangerous,
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: that it took that long. There's a similar trends that
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: I wasn't really planning and talking about in here, where
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: how much of the chemicals and products were derived from
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: animal based sources, and then also the testing that was
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: done on animals with these chemicals that has moved further
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: and further away from animals being used in any capacity
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: in cosmetics. So they are still in some way, but
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: it is significantly reduced from what it was sure, and
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: there are many places and regulations now that make it
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: straight up illegal. So like some of the companies took
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: this on themselves, there have been some like volunteer sort
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: of initiatives towards this. Some of them were sort of
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: forced into it and then claimed they were like, oh yeah,
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: look at this new thing that we're doing. We're so good,
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: which you know, they would not have done had they
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: not been forced. But nevertheless, the trend has been a
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: move away from exploitation of animals, either like deriving products
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: from them or testing products on them, right, which I
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: think generally most people are pretty pleased with that. That like,
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: I think most people would be happy to here that
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: that's been the trend, although I'm sure there are some
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: of those alpha men who were irritated by that.
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah for sure, Yeah for sure.
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: All right, let's cover this next part here. During World
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: War Two, there are many women who entered the workforce.
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: There's like a whole thing about this. A lot of
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: people know that that's what happens. Men were shipped off
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: to war and left a whole lot of women behind,
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: and they needed people to fill jobs, and so women
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: were entering the workforce for the very first time, and
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: for a variety of reasons, they might cut their hair
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: short or keep it up in buns, possibly because it
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: was a danger, possibly because of esthetic reasons, but whatever
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: the case, that was one of the things going on,
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: and so some people suggested that use of makeup was
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: a way to express and maintain the air of femininity,
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: Like as part of their identity, they showed up as
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: being very feminine, and further, they were expected to present
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: themselves in a particular way that was feminine, and it
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: helped them get hired, like if they were more feminine
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: up here, and they were more likely to get hired
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: for certain jobs. So they would wear carefully applied lipsticks, rouges,
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: eyeshadows and mascaras for getting hired and then working these jobs,
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: which I find quite interesting.
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean even in some of the marketing too,
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: Like if you look at Rosy De Riveter, like you
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: can tell you like her eyebrows are carefully curated, she's
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: got long eyelashes, like she's wearing maskara, and she has
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: like it looks like a blush under on her cheekbones,
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: so like it looks like she's even like in that
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: type of advertising to get people like, you know, rillied
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: up in that propaganda for the war, they're still even
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: using makeup as an example there.
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and fun note, because pantyhose was sometimes in short
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: supply during the war, they started releasing this leg paint
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: makeup to serve the same function as pantyhose. Like, I
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: found an advertising image of them that like it was
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: specifically make up for your legs. You're meant to like
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: paint it on to look like pantyhose would look, which
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: I think is very funny and kind of silly.
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: That's yeah, that's interesting. So also a fun side note,
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: because looking feminine was so important during the war, the
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: federal government actually carved out specific exemptions for rations that
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: would have prevented access to makeup, So like they made
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: sure that people could access makeup during the war.
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they were like willing to sacrifice money because they're, like,
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: it is very, very important that women look in line
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: with a particular framework of beauty that we've more or
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: less just agreed is the way that femininity should look
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: right now, And so they sort of carved out these exemptions.
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: And I forgot to mention this earlier, But as another
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: sort of fun side note regarding the government here is
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: that like during prohibition initially caused I, manufacturers were kind
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: of screwed because a lot of their products contained some
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: form of alcohol, and prohibition just limited alcohol. So the
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: manufacturers like actually went to Congress and said, this is
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: not potable alcohol. You need to be clear in your
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: language that this is exempt from prohibition, and they were
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: able to get that law changed to allow them to
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: continue to use alcohol to create their manufacturing products. Incredible
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: because it was so important that that industry sort of exists. Yeah,
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: it's wild.
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: Oh, meta contingencies. So, during the nineteen sixties and seventies,
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: manufacturers began catering to women with darker complexions, so you
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: started seeing more quote unquote natural cosmetics that were coming
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: into vogue. However, the colors were more matt and closer
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: to natural skin tones, and so you know, I think
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: it's really important. I'm sure you've heard this flavor as
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: we go through this is that a lot of what
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: we're talking about is like there are systems of sexism
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: and racism inside of all of this, like and there's
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: going to be and like we we are going to
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: kind of unpack that a little bit. But you know,
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: at this time when we're talking in the sixties and seventies,
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: when they're doing these more natural cosmetics, the criterion that
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: cosmetic manufacturers must need to call their product natural is
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: this they want to, and that's it. Yep, there's no
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: criterion to call something natural looking and cosmetics the word
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: natural is not regulated at all and organic barely is.
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: So when you're going to purchase makeup and purchase products,
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: just remember that, Like, there's no rules on how they
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: market this. They can call it whatever they want whenever
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: they want.
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the word natural one hundred percent up to them.
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: If they want to call it natural even though it's
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: one hundred percent synthetic, they can absolutely do that. Yeah,
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: there is no rules that say that they can't. But yeah,
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: and I sort of failed to mention this earlier too,
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: but there was very little interest at all in the
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: sort of cosmetic industry about providing similar makeups to people
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: with darker skin. They saw it as essentially a non
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: viable part of the market and just didn't want to
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: bother with it. And that did start to change. There
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: were various attempts earlier on in the nineteen hundreds where
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: you'd actually have black owned companies who like did create
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: makeup for people with darker skin. But this started to
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: become more systematized during the sort of sixties and seventies.
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: And I would argue it feels like it's still not
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: quite where it needs to be, but it does seem
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: like it's gotten better from what I've sort of seen
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: and read.
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think there's definitely some folks that are fighting
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: against those systems and really trying to make a difference,
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: which is which is great. So the thing is, though,
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: is when the eighties hit. The thing you have to
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: know about the eighties, And for those of you who
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: don't know what the eighties looked like, maybe you're too young,
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: or maybe you've only seen pictures. Everything was neon, everything
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: was bright. Something was invented called hypercolor. Life was very strange. Lasers.
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: There were lasers everywhere and lots of people thought they
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: were from the future, but they were not. Lots of
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: shoulder pads in suits. Like, it was a very strange time.
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: That was the thing.
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: And so when it comes to makeup, the eighties went
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: in kind of opposite direction where they started looking at bright,
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: garish colors and very sharp line. It's very angular. Everything
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: in the eighties was very angular.
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the Tim Burton effect.
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. Just watch an episode of American Gladiator and
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: you'll see what we mean. Like, everything was grids and
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: computers and all that now Today, many people use makeup
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: in a wide variety of socially acceptable ways. Some simply
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: homogenize their appearance, cover blemishes, add subtle accents to create
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: an intentional presentation. Others where you know, maybe they're heavily
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: caked with extreme makeup, mask like appearances, lots of colors,
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: lots of variation. There's a lot of expression in makeup
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: today compared to what it used to look like.
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think that we could. We would
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: not be all that surprised to see someone wearing no
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: makeup at all, and we would not be all that
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: surprised to see someone wearing just a ton of makeup.
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: I think we could go out and expect to see
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: any of those things and not have a particularly strong
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: reaction to either. Matter of fact, I don't even know
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: most of the time if I'm seeing people who are
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: wearing makeup at all, that they might be, but they
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: also might not be. Yeah, and I wouldn't necessarily be
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: to tell. And then I will see people who have
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: got like just very bright, sharp, colorful, generously applied quantities
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: of makeup that also I don't really bat an eye
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: at because who cares.
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, why is it a big deal? Like, I
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: don't I but I guess people really have a hard
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: time with this.
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess they can. Another thing that happened a
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: lot during the eighties was ads.
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: Oh so many?
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: All right, we're back. Arguably ads are significantly worse now
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: than they have ever been. Yeah, as evidenced by the
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: amount of ads that we shove into this podcast.
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: But that's true.
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like on Ready Player one, the goal is
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: to fill ninety percent of space with ads.
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: Right right right without making somebody go crazy.
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, or like have a seizure or something.
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So Abraham, I have a question for you.
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, why because Yeah, And we sort of have alluded
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: to a lot of the various reasons for makeup as
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: we were talking through the history, because and that's one
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: of the reasons it's useful to unpack the history is
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: that gives some of the context there. And so the
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: reasons for makeup are quite varied. We mentioned many along
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: the way, But you could sort of broadly clump makeup
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: into two categories of motivation, if you will, One in
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: which people use it regardless of their interactions with others.
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: That is, their entirely practical reasons, and then you have
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: entirely social reasons. So for practical reasons that might include
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: using things like sunblock that is generally considered in the
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: realm of cosmetics, you could arguably make the case that
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: it is a form of like makeup or cosmetic because
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: it does do things like support your skin and prevent
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: sun damage in that sort of thing, so it does
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: create a specific look. It also might create a certain
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: smell to help cover up smells or to just create
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: an experience or smell that people prefer. It might be
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: for skin cracks, so healing or just skincare in general,
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: healing cracks, attending to wrinkles, or trying to prevent wrinkles,
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: which again is one of those things like the ultimate
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: goal is an esthetic one in a way, but a
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: lot of times like it has like a practical application blemishes.
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: And then another important one that I think I mentioned
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: later is like scars, Like you're gonna imagine that like
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: people with a lot of scarring might try to use
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: some forms of skin care to help with the scarring,
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: to help potentially reduce the scarring or to make it
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: less noticeable, less dramatic, or again, even if we're thinking
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: about entirely practical uses. If there are things where a
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: deep scar would maybe make it difficult to wear certain clothes,
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: or it might be more susceptible to I don't know,
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: I guess it depends on the type of the scar,
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: but like even get caught on things and maybe torn
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: into again. So I could imagine there being situations in
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: which just that aspect alone has practical utility, where there
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: is some kind of cosmetic applied.
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and some other examples of like functional approaches or
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: practical reasons would be to reduce swelling some folks, Like
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: there's some makeup compounds that have medicinal value to like
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: salves and you know, things like that. Sure, antibiotics as well,
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: Like there's some arguments that, like some makeup applications do
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: include antibiotic factors. And then insect repellent, right, the idea
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: that some makeups will prevent insects from biting you or
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: scratching you or approaching you, even like they may be
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: they may repel those mosquitos, those pesky pesky mosquitos here
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: in Florida, the ones that carry off your children because
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: they're so big. Sometimes makeup can help repel those creatures
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: as well.
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and we saw that with the We think that
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: was possibly an effect and reason for some of the
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: makeup with the Egyptian cultures right back in time.
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: All right.
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: Then the other category, as we said, are these social reasons,
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: things like status. When we mentioned upper class and royalty,
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: you could also think about things like people who are
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: lower class status. So the sex workers and then actors
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: it was very common to use makeup as part of
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: their costume, and even things like self esteem. We could
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: I think broadly categorize in this idea of sort of
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: social motivations that would influence our choice to use makeup.
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the choice to use makeup can also improve people's
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: competence confidence not competence, don't. You can't go out and
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: put it on foundation and all of a sudden you
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: know everything, right, So, like by at least you're confident
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: in that regard. It can help express your personality, right,
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: The idea that, like, you know, makeup expressions are just
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: another way to help you kind of identify with your
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: personality and your preference youthfulness, So people like to look
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: really young looking attractive to some folks. People will apply
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: in engaging lots of cosmetics, right, like cosmetic surgery and
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: stuff like that, to have what they would describe as
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: and what they aspire to be, which is an attractive appearance.
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: So you'll see a lot of that with the use
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: of makeup as well.
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: Now, some of these you might hear and think that's
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: not really social, like self esteem or confidence, but I
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: would actually very much argue these have exactly to do
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: with interactions in a social community. Like, for example, status
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: is only relevant when one compares themselves to others in
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: terms of power, respect, or wealth or some other factor
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: that's related to that. But even when we look at
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: self esteem, personal expression, confidence, looking young, or attractive, that
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: has to do essentially with how one wishes to influence
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: how they are perceived by others around them. They're sort
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: of trying to craft a stimulus that will evoke or
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: elicit a particular response from an audience, and that only
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: matters if you have an audience, right, Right, So, even
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: though it feels like it's a very personal, sort of
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: internal thing, it's internal because it relates to our interaction
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: in a social community.
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: Right now, we're gonna do a little bit of a
• 43:48
  Speaker 2: challenge for you listeners out there. I want you to
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: be able to pin down. We're gonna call this find
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: the bias in these studies. Okay, so let's see how
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: this goes. So, researchers looked at how men and women
• 43:58
  Speaker 2: reported their perceptions of women in makeup. On average, men
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: perceived women wearing makeup as being more prestigious. That is,
• 44:06
  Speaker 2: makeup gave them the impression that the women were wealthier
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: and higher class in general. Now, women perceived other women
• 44:13
  Speaker 2: wearing makeup as being or like as showing dominance, and
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: also as being more promiscuous. So kind of knowing that
• 44:21
  Speaker 2: about well, like listening to that and hearing that about
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: what we view perceptions of makeup, I would love for
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: you to write in and let us know what you
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: think that bias is. I mean, you'll have to. We
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: can hear you screaming it through the speakers, because it's
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: pretty clear that you know, those researchers did not really
• 44:35
  Speaker 2: look at men wearing makeup, and the perceptions of men
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: wearing makeup also didn't account for internalized biases related to
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: women in general.
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: Also, it divided gender up into there being only two
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: when we know that there's like a spectrum of different
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: types of genders and like personal expression and orientations and
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: stuff that do not easily separate into a binary pattern. Right,
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: But that was sort of the general trend observed. And
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: I was kind of curious in your thoughts on this too,
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: because I would say that I actually I agree with
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: that experience for myself, where when I see someone wearing makeup,
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: my immediate thought, or particularly when it's obvious, like I
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: can tell they spent time on it. Yeah, my immediate
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: thought has to do with, like, this person has the
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: wealth and resources to do this sort of thing. Sure,
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: so it does strike me as being prestigious. I don't
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: know that I've looked at it and interpret it in
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: any way that implied things like I don't think I've
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: ever thought of it in terms of like promiscuity or
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: dominance or anything like that. It really did strike me
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: as personally being more of a prestige thing.
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I've definitely had that thought, And you know, I
• 45:43
  Speaker 2: think that I will say, you know, admittedly, I have
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: an implicit biases that show up when whenever I see
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: people like you know, a variety of people wearing makeup,
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: I will, you know, like I think, you know, growing
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: up in the nineties where homophobia ran rampant as a
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: result of you know, like some of the stuff going
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: on in the eighties and whatnot, like with any kind
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: of the different you know, the different societal commentary about
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: folks that you know. So if I see if I
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: see men wearing makeup, like, I have an implicit bias
• 46:11
  Speaker 2: where I go, oh, this person must you know, must
• 46:14
  Speaker 2: be attracted to the same sex partners like, And that
• 46:16
  Speaker 2: is an implicit bias that I do have that I
• 46:18
  Speaker 2: actively work on because like, I know, that's not what
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: it is, I know logically, but like every now and again,
• 46:23
  Speaker 2: and that's kind of how implicit bias shows up. Is
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: like you have no control over what you think. It's
• 46:27
  Speaker 2: just you have to recognize that you think and move on,
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: you know, Like it can be. It's tough. It's tough
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: to recognize. But yeah, I have those those thoughts all
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: pop up and I'm like, that's not helpful, and I
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: don't believe that, but it's it's one of those things
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: that those thoughts do show up every now and again.
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no, I think that makes a lot of sense.
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: I completely agree. Another I think related issue here that
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: ties into this is where does this fall in like
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: how people think about feminism and like how would feminism
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: sort of approach the idea of makeup? And I found
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: this really interesting story. So in twenty ten, there was
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: a sex journalist and blogger named Rachel rabbit White who
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: I thought had a very fun name.
• 47:04
  Speaker 2: That's great.
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: She sort of did this whole seven day no makeup challenge,
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: if you will, and she really it was self imposed,
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: but she invited people to do it with her if
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: they wanted to, and she reported that she had noticed
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: that she was like often scrambling to put on makeup,
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: even if she was just meeting someone for coffee, and
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: she said it wasn't fun and it didn't even feel
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: like it was a choice. It was like it was
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: something she had to do, she was required to do.
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: And so she did this whole thing where she's like,
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: I'm just gonna do one week where I just don't
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: wear makeup because part of it, and that she sort
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: of mentioned was like I want to feel like I'm
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: making this choice for me sure, and then I'm doing
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: it because I think it's fun or because I like
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: the way it makes me feel or something else, instead
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: of feeling obligated to do it. And to sort of
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: reclaim her experience of makeup as being a personal one. Yeah,
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: a lot of people had very strong reactions to this,
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: many of them, you can imagine. There were some chauvinist
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: reactions from some men and then weaned on this, and
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: then there were also some women who sort of chimed
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: in saying like I could never like, there's an under
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: no circumstances am I going a week without putting on makeup?
• 48:10
  Speaker 1: While others did join her and did attempt this and
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: would send her photos that she would then post to
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: her blog as well. Yeah, so I just kind of
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: an interesting little experiment that came out of this, But
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: it does tie in pretty closely to some of the
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: other thoughts on this with respect to feminism.
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think right now there's a big discussion and
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: I've seen this criticism come up a lot with Pamela Anderson,
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: who has more recently showed up at like public events
• 48:32
  Speaker 2: with not wearing makeup and anything like that. Oh nice,
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: And the commentary around pamel Anderson, who was known was
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: as like a sex icon in the nineties and through
• 48:40
  Speaker 2: two thousands, is you know, now being criticized for having
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: a natural look and not wearing makeup, and that is
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: such a big discussion, which is like, I feel like absurd,
• 48:50
  Speaker 2: you know, that's that tells you all you need to
• 48:52
  Speaker 2: know about how people view women in our society, right.
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, very much so.
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: So for feminism, it's complicated, right. So feminists may argue
• 48:59
  Speaker 2: that using makeup to appear a certain way to men,
• 49:02
  Speaker 2: which is a whole host of different conversations, but who
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: do not have the same social pressures. Because men don't
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: have the same social pressures or to display their status,
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: it's devaluing their worth by suggesting that their natural appearance
• 49:13
  Speaker 2: is not good enough and that therefore they aren't good enough,
• 49:16
  Speaker 2: And that is a big argument and a big discussion
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: around the use of makeup for women in general.
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like is your worth tied to your appearance?
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: And like who is this for? That sort of thing?
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: And at the same time, they there's also the stance
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: of women being empowered to make this choice for themselves.
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: They choose to wear makeup as a form of their
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: own self expression because they can choose to control how
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: they look and how they want to present themselves. So
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: there is an aspect of this that's like we can't
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: tell you what to do or we don't want to
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: tell you what to do, but we also don't want
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: other people to tell you what to do. And it's
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: sort of like the issue being how are women's behaviors
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: being dictated by people because their value is linked to
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: how they more or less appear esthetically and that being problematic?
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: And I agree with that. I think that that's exactly right. That, like,
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: it's very bothersome to me that people feel like they
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: need to even comment on how people are dressed or
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: how they look, right, Like, yes, it's just so asinine.
• 50:19
  Speaker 1: I'm like, this is like not your place at all. No, exactly,
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: you should not be worried about the choices other people
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: are making about how they look, Like if you want to,
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: if you want to give them a compliment, I'd go nuts.
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: Like people love to hear that sort of thing. And
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: if you don't have anything nice to say, then just
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: don't say anything at all, because like appearances is one
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: of those things that like unless you're sporting hate speech
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: propaganda like swastikas and an other sort of anti other
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: community stuff, like what you wear is nobody's business. Like
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: just I just cannot even begin to wrap my head
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: around how you can justify commenting on someone else's appearance
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: in that way.
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a little a bit ridiculous, but I mean
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: when it comes to women wearing makeup in general, and
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: like feminism in general, Like, I think it comes down
• 51:06
  Speaker 2: to motives, Right, are you doing this for you or
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: are you doing this for somebody else? And those in
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: the feminist movement seem to push for accepting yourself however
• 51:13
  Speaker 2: you choose to present yourself, So do it for you,
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: whatever you choose to do. I think it's really important
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: to know that people have choices, and they have their
• 51:21
  Speaker 2: own motivations for making choices like that.
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: There is sort of an issue in here around the rules,
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: thoughts and considerations around this for young girls. As we
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: sort of mentioned before, like makeup is often intended one
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: of the things that's intended to do is convey a
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: sense of youthfulness. Well, kids are already pretty youthful by definition. Yeah,
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: so it's sort of worth asking, like what's being gained here?
• 51:50
  Speaker 3: Now?
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: I would point out that, like, that's not the only
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: reason there might be. There plenty of reasons that this
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: might make sense. And I think of people who are
• 51:57
  Speaker 1: maybe who suffer some kind of terrible injury where they
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: want to try and make that less of a salient
• 52:02
  Speaker 1: feature of how they look, or who have some other
• 52:05
  Speaker 1: conditions that might make them stand out and feel very
• 52:08
  Speaker 1: self conscious about themselves, and they would feel less self
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: conscious if they could control the presentation of whatever thing
• 52:15
  Speaker 1: they have going on. And that might be very relevant
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: to pretty young kids still, and they might also not
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: choose that, And again it's nobody's business but sort of
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: them and their family who are supporting them through that.
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: But I do think there are the considerations here about
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: like girls who are dressing up to sort of have
• 52:30
  Speaker 1: heightened femininity and what that might mean.
• 52:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and there's a conversation here about really sexualization, because
• 52:36
  Speaker 2: I think makeup does get sexualized a little bit unnecessarily. Like,
• 52:40
  Speaker 2: I think it's really important for everybody here to remember
• 52:42
  Speaker 2: that makeup is not an inherently sexual.
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: Thing, right.
• 52:46
  Speaker 2: I think it could be used in spaces. I think
• 52:48
  Speaker 2: it is part of, you know, some kings and fetishes
• 52:51
  Speaker 2: and paraphilies that people might have, but like, it is
• 52:54
  Speaker 2: not in itself a sexual thing. And so I think
• 52:57
  Speaker 2: that there is a conversation about that about how like
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: makeup does kind of get overly sexualized, especially for younger folks.
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: The concern I would have about saying we shouldn't allow
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: young girls to wear makeup because it over sexualizes them
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: is I'm like, you're the one making that call, Like
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: you're treating this as if makeup is sexual, and as if,
• 53:14
  Speaker 1: like we, girl wearing makeup is inherently sexual. That means said,
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: there might be plenty of good reasons not to necessarily
• 53:20
  Speaker 1: think that we should be encouraging this. As we said,
• 53:23
  Speaker 1: like safety is still something that they're like working on.
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: We haven't completely solved that, so like limiting the exposure
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: to chemicals that are in some of these spaces and anymore,
• 53:33
  Speaker 1: the concerns are more around things like mold and funcuses
• 53:35
  Speaker 1: that can get in there. Sure that could be like
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: a reasonable consideration. And then also like giving kids time
• 53:41
  Speaker 1: to sort of figure out who they are before they
• 53:43
  Speaker 1: start necessarily applying heavy cosmetics to who they appear to
• 53:47
  Speaker 1: be might be something that people want to consider for themselves.
• 53:51
  Speaker 1: But again, I just feel like it's not one of
• 53:52
  Speaker 1: those things where we need to societally jump in and
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: make some hard and fast rules about this.
• 53:57
  Speaker 2: Personally, yeah, yeah, you know, And I guess to you know,
• 54:01
  Speaker 2: having an older daughter. Now, she's an adult now, but
• 54:03
  Speaker 2: when she was a kid and she would start applying
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: makeup and wearing makeup, like, there was never a time
• 54:08
  Speaker 2: where I was like, Oh, she's just trying to do blank.
• 54:11
  Speaker 2: You know, like that she's sexually active. Da da da da.
• 54:13
  Speaker 2: She specifically told me when we would have conversations about it,
• 54:16
  Speaker 2: because she's pretty articulate and pretty observant of her own thoughts,
• 54:20
  Speaker 2: and she just kind of said, she's like, it just
• 54:21
  Speaker 2: makes me feel more confident. I have more when I
• 54:24
  Speaker 2: wear makeup. I feel better about myself, and I feel
• 54:27
  Speaker 2: like I can interact more effectively with people when I
• 54:31
  Speaker 2: wear makeup. She's like, and it's just she's like, it's
• 54:33
  Speaker 2: a social thing. She's like, it's not even like trying
• 54:34
  Speaker 2: to pick up partners or be attractive to Like She's like,
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: I just literally feel like I am more confident when
• 54:39
  Speaker 2: I wear makeup. And she has done that for six
• 54:42
  Speaker 2: years now. I don't know what she feels like about
• 54:44
  Speaker 2: it now, but when she was like fourteen and fifteen,
• 54:47
  Speaker 2: that's what she would say.
• 54:48
  Speaker 1: That makes a lot of sense, And honestly, like, I
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: think some of us who have never really had makeup
• 54:53
  Speaker 1: as part of the routine of our daily lives. Might
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: hear that and say like, I don't feel that. I
• 54:58
  Speaker 1: would challenge you to say, like, maybe if you tried
• 55:01
  Speaker 1: making makeup part of your routine, you would feel differently.
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: Maybe you would start to feel like a different kind
• 55:05
  Speaker 1: of confidence, or you might feel better about the way
• 55:08
  Speaker 1: that or different at least and how you're presenting yourself.
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: So I would say, like, let's not judge until you've
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: sort of been down that path as well. And again,
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: even if you have, and I like, there are people
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: who would say that that's not their experience. Also, I
• 55:21
  Speaker 1: would say, like, you're not everybody, and it's just again,
• 55:24
  Speaker 1: you don't need to make choices for people when those
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: choices do nothing to anybody but themselves.
• 55:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.
• 55:30
  Speaker 1: Well, we should also talk a little bit about there
• 55:32
  Speaker 1: is the inherent binary in this. We've talked a lot
• 55:34
  Speaker 1: about how this relates to women, and I think that again,
• 55:37
  Speaker 1: there's a spectrum there. We understand that, but when talking
• 55:40
  Speaker 1: about the history of makeup, it's pretty much clearly separated
• 55:43
  Speaker 1: into a binary of men and women. So let's talk
• 55:45
  Speaker 1: about just briefly here the idea of makeup for men.
• 55:49
  Speaker 1: After an ad for makeup for men, We're back. We
• 56:00
  Speaker 1: were talking about how this relates to the category of
• 56:03
  Speaker 1: people I'm going to call men, understanding that that is
• 56:06
  Speaker 1: not necessarily whatever, Like, it could mean multiple things, I
• 56:09
  Speaker 1: guess sure. One of the most common is an acting
• 56:12
  Speaker 1: This is obviously a place like whenever you are in acting,
• 56:14
  Speaker 1: you're going to go into hair and makeup. They will
• 56:17
  Speaker 1: specifically try and craft a way for you to look,
• 56:20
  Speaker 1: whether they'll emphasize certain features of yours or not. And
• 56:23
  Speaker 1: so it's very common for actors. Pretty much all actors
• 56:27
  Speaker 1: all the time are always wearing makeup. That's actually not true,
• 56:30
  Speaker 1: they're gonna be conditions under which they're not, but it's
• 56:32
  Speaker 1: so common that it basically is all the time. Right,
• 56:35
  Speaker 1: many men do use even outside of acting, that they
• 56:38
  Speaker 1: do use like foundation or other basic cover ups to
• 56:40
  Speaker 1: obscure blemishes. But again, this might be related to things
• 56:44
  Speaker 1: like scars or other skin conditions. So like, there is
• 56:48
  Speaker 1: a place for this in that group of people who
• 56:51
  Speaker 1: we tend to broadly call men.
• 56:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Now, all sexes and all genders use various skincare
• 56:57
  Speaker 2: regimens to support healthy skin and prevent disease that wrinkle
• 57:00
  Speaker 2: scarring rough textures. Although again the makeup industry is typically
• 57:05
  Speaker 2: skewed towards and marketed towards women versus men, but it
• 57:09
  Speaker 2: is a setting in which you may be more likely
• 57:12
  Speaker 2: to see men using cosmetics. Today, especially with the amount
• 57:17
  Speaker 2: of self caring routines that people are talking about, you're
• 57:19
  Speaker 2: starting to see this become a little bit more normalized
• 57:22
  Speaker 2: than it has in past decades.
• 57:24
  Speaker 1: Now. Of course, there are several performers, mail or otherwise
• 57:27
  Speaker 1: who use makeup very intensively and also very intentionally, and
• 57:31
  Speaker 1: I would think of in particular things such as drag performances. Yes,
• 57:35
  Speaker 1: or they might just want to appear slightly more androgynous
• 57:37
  Speaker 1: I saw specifically like David's Bowie's use of makeup was
• 57:40
  Speaker 1: because he wanted to sort of make himself look more androgynous.
• 57:44
  Speaker 1: And so people might make those choices in that space
• 57:47
  Speaker 1: as well, which is another instance of what you are
• 57:48
  Speaker 1: likely to see makeup that is employed by people, again
• 57:53
  Speaker 1: broadly in the category of mail, right.
• 57:55
  Speaker 2: And then some makeup companies have attempted to bring more
• 57:57
  Speaker 2: men into the cosmetic markets, and they on just wanting
• 58:01
  Speaker 2: to convey a particular appearance and obscuring or augmenting particular
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: facial features. And they'll also name their stuff with really ridiculous,
• 58:09
  Speaker 2: like manly men names like what is perceived to be
• 58:12
  Speaker 2: like man like you know, it's like, oh, here's this makeup.
• 58:14
  Speaker 2: It's called sawdust ritual, or you know, like you know,
• 58:19
  Speaker 2: like something stupid like deep sea hunter and it's like,
• 58:22
  Speaker 2: you know, in ocean smell. It's like, okay, Like it's
• 58:25
  Speaker 2: really ridiculous how fragile male egos are when it comes
• 58:29
  Speaker 2: to this. It's like like I just as an example,
• 58:32
  Speaker 2: I've used Secret deodorant since I was a kid. It
• 58:35
  Speaker 2: is the most effective deodorant that I could possibly use.
• 58:38
  Speaker 2: It's always marketed for women, it's never marketed for men.
• 58:41
  Speaker 2: And when I tell my friends I use Secret, they're
• 58:43
  Speaker 2: like really, and it's like, yeah, it works better for
• 58:45
  Speaker 2: me than anything else has. So but man, men are
• 58:48
  Speaker 2: so so, so fragile when it comes to this stuff.
• 58:51
  Speaker 2: It's so great. I ask everybody here, if you're listening
• 58:54
  Speaker 2: to this show, go to the cosmetics department, go to
• 58:57
  Speaker 2: those sections and look at them. The names for like
• 58:59
  Speaker 2: men's anything, men's candles, men's lotions, any of that stuff.
• 59:04
  Speaker 2: It is absolutely insane, how fragile men are, and like
• 59:09
  Speaker 2: what companies are doing to get men to buy the.
• 59:11
  Speaker 1: Stuff and post some of that on our social media
• 59:14
  Speaker 1: is it'd be really fun to have sort of a
• 59:15
  Speaker 1: bunch of last Yeah, exactly right. It's like if there's
• 59:19
  Speaker 1: any hint whatsoever that it's not in line with the
• 59:23
  Speaker 1: most masculine ideas of things, then they just get so
• 59:27
  Speaker 1: worried and worked up about it, Like, oh, I could
• 59:30
  Speaker 1: wear something called Dove Lumberjack though that I will wear
• 59:34
  Speaker 1: because yeah, my ego just can't handle it.
• 59:37
  Speaker 2: Dude as an example, like wet wipes, Like this is
• 59:39
  Speaker 2: my favorite. There's a whole company called dude Wipes that
• 59:42
  Speaker 2: are just specifically like, oh, you need your your tushy
• 59:45
  Speaker 2: is a little bit sore, and you need to use
• 59:46
  Speaker 2: a wet wipe. Well, don't use regular wet wipes, use
• 59:48
  Speaker 2: dude wipes, right, And it's like so absurd.
• 59:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I love it. There are a few myths to dispel,
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: which is one of our favorite things. Most of these well,
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 1: so we only have a couple here, and I do
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 1: think that these will be fairly intuitive to many of
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 1: our very bright listeners. But one of them is that
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 1: women wear makeup to invite sexual partners. Maybe some of
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 1: them do, but this is not true in the vast, vast,
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 1: overwhelming majority of situations, right, the vast majority of the time,
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 1: people like it's part of the ritual, part of the routine.
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 1: Might include very specific skin care products intended to support
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 1: skin health and that sort of thing. And often they
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 1: just want to present themselves in a particular way and
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 1: are really actively not trying to recruit any sexual attention, right,
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 1: And I think those alpha males that are the in
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 1: cells are particular, they really struggle with this idea.
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Also, wearing makeup makes you narcissistic. That's a myth
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 2: that comes up that's not at all true. Some people
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 2: who are narcissistic may wear makeup and may wear like
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 2: what you could be what could be described as very
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 2: orange makeup, like a lot of orange makeup, like so
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 2: much orange makeup that it's very clear they're wearing orange makeup.
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 2: And then they just nobody's telling them that they're wearing
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 2: orange makeup, but like they're just ignoring all the guidance
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 2: around having better makeup. But it's for sure orange makeup,
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 2: you know, And you might call that person a narcissist,
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 2: I would, but wearing makeup does not cause narcissism, and
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 2: most people who wear makeup are not narcissistic.
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but you can find examples out there, like many things. Yeah,
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 1: it certainly does not inherently mean that you're a narcissistic.
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 1: It certainly does not cause you to become narcissistic. That
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 1: is very silly. Yes, there are a lot of other
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 1: myths about like what makeup means for like who you
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 1: are in your psychology. And I think like, if you're
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 1: trying to fit that square peg in the round hole,
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 1: just stop and pay attention to the fact that you're
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 1: doing that, Like it's just that's wrong, it's dumb, and
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 1: it doesn't make any sense, Like it's yeah, that's you're like, Oh,
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 1: all women who wear makeup or this kind of wear eyeshadow,
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 1: they're just trying for this or they just want this,
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 1: or they're communicating whatever. I'm like, all of them really
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 1: probably none of them, right, but if there are any
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 1: like then it's it's less than the majority. And also
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 1: like not any of your concern again, going back to that,
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 1: and so there's more of those, I'm sure we could find,
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 1: but those were a couple specifically that stood out to me. Yeah,
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 1: all right, interesting tidbits here. I was thinking about prosthetics
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 1: as they relate to things like makeup and cosmetics. It's
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 1: probably worth doing a whole dive on this at some point.
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 1: There were like people who, for example, suffered from syphilis
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 1: a lot of things, they'll see their nose collapse and
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 1: so they would have prosthetic noses. But this also happened
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 1: for people who suffered from injuries in war, and they
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 1: might also have prosthetic ears or eyes or other body parts.
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 1: And you think of like a prosthetic leg has a
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 1: very specific function, like its function is too that you
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 1: can then walk still potentially right, But most of these
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 1: other ones are entirely aesthetic reasons. It's just like there
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 1: are people who specifically like they felt like they could
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 1: not have a meaningful social life without having something to
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 1: support some injury or something that happens to them that
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 1: would draw a lot of people's attention. It might even
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 1: scare people. And so because the social aspect of this
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 1: is really important, I sort of was thinking about esthetics
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 1: or prosthetics in this way as it relates to things
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 1: like like makeup, like it's kind of similar.
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, for sure. You might be asking how much
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 2: money do people spend on makeup? Well, in twenty twenty two,
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 2: the industry was valued at about two hundred and ninety
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 2: nine point eight billion dollars annually, right, so it's a
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 2: pretty pretty u pricing lot a lot of money going
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 2: into cosmetics in general, but it's expected to grow to
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 2: about four hundred and seventeen point two billion dollars by
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 2: twenty thirty, So we're talking half a trillion dollars almost
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 2: just spent on makeup, which is like a wild number
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 2: to think about.
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 1: That is a huge, huge amount for sure.
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 2: Yes, all right.
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 1: Research that has looked at this again separated into binaries,
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 1: they identify that women spend about three thousand, seven hundred
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 1: and sixty five dollars per year on beauty products and services.
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 1: I think this is as of twenty twenty three. I
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 1: didn't see it more updated numbers, while men spend about
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 1: two thousand, nine, one hundred and twenty eight beauty products
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 1: and services. And I was trying to square that, and
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 1: I was like, that seems like fairly similar numbers until
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 1: I think about the fact that they included services and
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 1: I'm like, I wonder if this includes things like haircuts, sunscreen,
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 1: skin lotion, things like that, where I'm like they are
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 1: lumped into the same category. It's not saying necessarily makeup explicitly,
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 1: but products of some sort relating to a set of
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 1: appearance or yeah, or surfaces. Yeah exactly, so yeah.
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because that would include like shaving equipment and like
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 2: yeah products related to that too, So like that's something
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 2: to consider in there too.
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 1: All right, we didn't really get into this. There's like
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 1: a whole thing I found around like all the different
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 1: body parts. It was like, like, what's the intention and
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 1: use of things like lipstick and then nail polish and eyes. Briefly,
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 1: one of the things I saw around eyes is that
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 1: the reason that there's so much attention to and like
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 1: sometimes if the only makeup people do it's like around
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 1: their eyes is it tends to highlight their eyes. Specifically,
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 1: we tend to look at each other in the eyes,
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 1: and makeup can highlight. It can make the eyes stand out,
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 1: it can make them appear larger or more colorful. It
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 1: just has that draw our attention a little bit more.
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 1: And then some of the other ones I saw some
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 1: nail polishes have specific like supporting features, so it's meant
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 1: to actually strengthen the nail and make it less likely
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 1: to bend, break or chip. There was a trend for
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 1: a while of people applying lipstick in what they described
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 1: as the shape of Cupid's bow, and this was like
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 1: the early nineteen twenties or so, and so like even
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 1: if people had like very thin lips, they would sort
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 1: of draw lipstick on to form like a particular shape
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 1: around their lips. And so there's like a specific way
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 1: that like lipstick is kind of used sometimes, but it
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 1: was also like tended to be associated with higher wages,
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 1: more higher ability, being perceived both as more attractive but
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 1: also like friendlier. So like there's a lot of weird
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 1: stuff around make up a lipstick specifically, And then there
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 1: was like all this stuff around the idea of like
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 1: colors having specific meanings. They don't and they never do,
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 1: but like there are things that are more common and
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 1: less common, So like black lipstick usually is not super common,
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 1: and so I think that that conveys just a different
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 1: sort of feeling to people who are going to see
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 1: that and react to it differently than they would as
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 1: something that's sort of us more subtle color, or even
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 1: just a more traditional color like red. So the colors
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 1: themselves don't actually mean anything, but you might use them
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 1: in a particular way because you want to evoke some
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 1: reaction from your audience, if you will.
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that makes sense, I can see that.
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 1: I think that's what I have to say about makeup.
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 1: That was a whole lot of stuff, and we probably
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 1: could have dived into a matter of fact, I know
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 1: we could have because I left out a ton of
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 1: stuff that I read for this, including many studies and
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 1: many more aspects of the timeline, getting into like more
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 1: regulations around things and some of the issues with race
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 1: and whatnot. Is there anything that you'd like to add
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 1: or talk about before we move on to our credits
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 1: and all that.
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 2: I would imagine we could probably return this topic in
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 2: a lot of different ways. So, yeah, surprise. It's kind
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 2: of like our hair topics or our sleep topics that
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 2: there's so much to unpack in it.
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I've actually already made a note for one
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 1: minute at least that occurred to me, so beautiful. Well,
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 1: I will actually put a subtract in by putting in
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 1: an ad Oh no, all right, we're back, and hopefully
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 1: I did not scare people away before saying that we
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 1: actually have more to talk about, because if you're joining
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 1: us for the first time, you might not know this,
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 1: but the end of our at the end of our discussions,
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 1: I know words. We get some recommendations, just things that
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 1: we think people should go on and check out, or
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 1: that they could check out if they wanted to, not
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 1: necessarily should, some things that brought us joy that we
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 1: wanted to just share with people, and that's I think
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 1: one of the really fun parts about these discussions. So
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 1: we'll get to that in a second. But first I
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 1: would like to say, as I mentioned before, you if
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 1: you like to support us, one of the best ways
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 1: you can do that is by heading over to Patreon. There,
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 1: if you don't like hearing ads, you can get them
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 1: ad free. There. You can also get behind the scenes content,
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 1: early releases, and all kinds of other bonus content sort
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 1: of things. In addition to that, on these full length
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 1: discussions that we have which come out every Wednesday, as
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 1: opposed to, for example, the short mini episodes that we
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 1: put out on Mondays, at the end of these discussions,
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 1: I will read the list of people who have made
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 1: the generous decision to help join us over on Patreon,
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 1: and that is Mike m Megan, Mike T, Justin, Kim Brad, Stephanie, Brian, Ashley,
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 1: Kiara and Charlie. Thank you all for your continued support.
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 1: We love you, and there are otherwise you can support us. Yeah, Financially,
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 1: you can head over to our merch store and pick
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 1: up some really cool merch. You can also leave us
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 1: a rating and a review. If you have it already,
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 1: then you can subscribe, which means that you will always
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 1: get every episode that we release, and who doesn't want that?
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 1: And then, of course, one of the most common ways
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 1: that podcasts actually continue to proliferate and spread is by
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 1: word of mouth. So just get out there and tell
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 1: someone else about those great podcasts you heard on something
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 1: really interesting, which was in this case makeup. I've decided
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 1: that also I need my team of people to help
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 1: make this show writing in fact checking from Shane and myself.
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 1: Thank you for recording with me today. Shane, Hey, thank
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 1: you for having me. Our social media coordinator is Emma Wilson,
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 1: and our sound engineering guru person is Justin who does
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 1: all the good sounds. Yes he does, it makes all
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 1: this sounds good.
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 2: All the sounds are good because of his good sounds.
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 1: And of course I must say thank you to our
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 1: audience because we really appreciate you sticking with us and
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 1: being here this whole entire time, So thank you for listening. Now,
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 1: with that being said, I think we're ready to transition
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 1: to our recommendations.
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 2: Beautiful recommendations. I'm recommending a movie. I finally got to
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 2: watch this movie. I'd been wanting to for a while
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 2: because I love this world and this universe that has
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 2: been built, and this I think is a wonderful edition
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 2: that doesn't really do much in terms of change what
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 2: your view is on the entire universe, like in the
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 2: cinema universe. But it doesn't. It's a great it's it's
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 2: a really great entry. And that is Alien Romulus. Mm hmmm.
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 2: So this takes place around I believe Alien one, like
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 2: sometime after Alien the First Alien.
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 1: Yes, maybe between Alien one and Alien two like, or
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 1: maybe even close to where Alien two would be, but yeah,
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 1: somewhere in the middle there.
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's right in that world. And basically it's like
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 2: a whole new cast of people that get kind of
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 2: caught up in the whalen Utawni capitalist ventures that really
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 2: cripple people and really cause a lot of problems. The
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 2: story is, you know, you've got these folks that are
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 2: working for you know, this mining company on this planet
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 2: and they're trying to kind of escape what is effectively
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 2: in desert servitude. They're trying to pay off their debts
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 2: and they're trying to leave this planet, and they find
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 2: a space station that has the possibility of them being
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 2: able to go to another planet, and surprise, it's a
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 2: research station and further surprise, it's full of aliens. Whoops. Yeah, ooh,
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 2: not so good. And it's done by Fede, who is
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 2: known for being like kind of like really practical in
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 2: his horror effects, and there are a lot of really cool,
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 2: practical horror effects in this movie. There are so many
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 2: face huggers, there are so many genomorphs. It is so scary,
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 2: and it's like a return to form for the Alien
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 2: franchise where it's like small quarters, small group of people
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 2: trying to figure it out and just oh man, it's
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 2: it was so good and I thought they did a
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 2: really great job with this one. So that's my recommendation
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 2: if you like horror movies and you like the Alien franchise.
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 1: Agree. I loved this entry as well. I thought it
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 1: was quite good. Yeah, all right, I'm recommending a TV show.
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 1: It is called Love, Death, and Robots. At the time
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 1: that we're recording this, they have just recently released season four,
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 1: also called Volume four on there for some reason, just
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 1: in case you are not familiar with this already. It's
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 1: almost like animated black Mirror if you're familiar with that.
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 1: These tend to be these totally separate, like every episodis
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 1: so does stand alone, except for a couple that reference
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 1: each other, but most of them are just their own
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 1: self contained story. Most of them are pretty short, so
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 1: on average, you've got like ten to fifteen minute episodes.
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 1: They're pretty short. There's some that get a little bit longer,
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 1: but particularly in those most recent seasons, I don't think
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 1: anything goes beyond fifteen minutes. I think, oh, that's the
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 1: longest any episode is. In other seasons, some of them
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 1: get a bit longer. And they have a super different
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 1: variety of animation styles. So you've got some that look
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 1: like hand drawn cartoons, some that are sort of anime,
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 1: some that have live action filming going on. And then
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 1: most of them that are mostly computer generated, like all
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 1: the way through, and some of them look very sort
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 1: of cartoonish and silly, whereas some of them the animation
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 1: looks almost photorealistic. Some of them have like a sort
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 1: of story narrative that's playing out, and some of them
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 1: it is not. It's kind of ambiguous. You just see
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 1: a bunch of things happen and you sort of derive
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 1: from that what that might all mean, but with very
• 1:12:56
  Speaker 1: little guidance from the director or the actors or anything.
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 1: I will warn people a lot of these are quite dark,
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 1: and there are not a lot of happy endings here,
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 1: but they're so short that, like, you don't have a
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 1: lot of time to get super invested in any characters,
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 1: so you just kind of see stuff play out the
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 1: way that it plays out. Right, I really really enjoyed it.
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 1: I would like to probably just rewatch the whole thing
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 1: over again start to finish all four seasons. But this
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 1: season has been really fun, and so if you haven't
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 1: checked it out yet, it's strong recommended. It's a really
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 1: good show.
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 2: Great, Yeah, I've added it to my list.
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 1: Awesome. Well, I think that's what we have to say
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 1: about makeup and TV shows and movies for now, but
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 1: if you would like to tell us your thoughts on
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 1: makeup things and you can find some of the very
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 1: fragile men alpha masculine names of makeups. You can email
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 1: us directly by writing us at info at WWDWWD podcast
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 1: dot com. You can also reach us on the social
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 1: media platforms, and of course, leaving into those ratings and interviews,
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 1: we would love to hear from you. But otherwise, thank
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 1: you so much for listening. Is there anything else you
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 1: would like to add or that I forgot before we
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 1: wrap up?
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 2: No? I think that covers it all right.
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 1: This is Abraham, this is Shane. We're out so.
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 3: Ye you've been listening to Why We Do What We Do.
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 3: You can learn more about this and other episodes by
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 3: going to WWD WWD.
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 1: Podcast dot com.
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 3: Thanks for listening and we hope you have an awesome
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 3: day