Latest / The Pluralist Podcast - with Orly Erez-Likhovski and Rabbi Josh Weinberg / How Jews Can Organize Without Walking Away: Rabbi Jonah Pesner on Democracy and Israel
Transcript
- Rabbi Jonah Pesner: after October 7th, when our rabbis said, Why didn't people call me as they called me after Tree of Life? We had to really do a lot of educating around the difference between Tree of Life, which was so clear and October 7th, which was in Israel very far away. And in a context that's much more complicated for them. And that when the rabbis actually reached out and said Do you understand what this means for my Jewish people? Often the answer was, You have to help me understand this And thank you for calling me. So I think that's the hard news. is we have got to call in our partners more than ever because they don't know. There's newer people. So you have the work has to be done in it, It's like every generation has to redo the relationship building and the trust building. here's what we cannot do, Orley. Throw up our hands and say our allies have abandoned us. Because then what are we going to do? Be an isolated minority and try and do this ourselves? Or just Orly Erez Likhovski: Not it. Rabbi Jonah Pesner: work with. Have a litmus test and say these are the good people and these are we're too small. Orly Erez Likhovski: Welcome back to the Pluralist podcast from both sides of the ocean. I'm Orly Elislikovsky, Executive Director of the Israel Religious Action Center. Josh Weinberg: And I'm Rabbi Josh Weinberg, Vice President for Israel and Reform Zionism for the URJ and the Director of ARTSA. Orly, Shana Tova, Gemal Chatima Tova. It almost, almost Moad Dinah Orly Erez Likhovski: Shana Tovah, how was your Yom Kippur prayer? Josh Weinberg: Simcha. No, it was wonderful actually considering everything and that we had about 150 Israelis living in New York and Brooklyn together for Konidre. And we did, you know, a real Israeli style Yom Kippur. in Brooklyn together. Orly Erez Likhovski: you Josh Weinberg: it's a relative, it's our third or fourth year doing it. it was very meaningful, very powerful actually. And I think that about, I would say 75 % of the people who came would not have otherwise gone anywhere else. So that was, I think the thing. How about you? What was Yom Kippur like this year? Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, we had a very meaningful and uplifting service at my congregation, Kamatz, in Novaseret Zion, which was really beautiful. I felt I needed this especially this year. I think every year we're Josh Weinberg: Mmm. Orly Erez Likhovski: saying this, but especially now, know, it's sort of thinking about what's wrong and what we can repair. But I think that, you know, in the Kola Neshama congregation in Jerusalem, know, things were on the one hand very uplifting, but also very concerning attacks that continue to happen during Yom Kippur, unbelievably. Josh Weinberg: It's unthinkable. I yeah, I can also consider a collection on my home congregation, my home shul. And just to see this, I believe this was the fourth attack in just a month. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah. Yeah. Josh Weinberg: And Orly, just explain to us who is attacking here, because I've gotten a lot of questions about that. And I hope our listeners can just understand a little bit more. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, so you know, it's a good question. The police finally apprehended a few people today. Those are people wearing kippot, very young people. They don't seem haridim, not ultra-orthodox. Josh Weinberg: Mmm. Orly Erez Likhovski: They seem, as I said, very young, some of them teenagers, some of them younger. It's not clear. You it's been, as you said, the fourth time since August, and it's obviously very disturbing, especially because it's a pattern and it doesn't seem to go away. And I think the fact that we have reached a situation where Jews need to guard the synagogue because other Jews attack us is really unthinkable. But on the other hand, it's not surprising at all, given all the incitement and hate that we have heard against Reform Judaism. and from our very own government during these last few years. So obviously those words are dangerous and this is the result, right, that we see on the ground. Josh Weinberg: Yeah, and well, thank you. And just say a word about any sort of police intervention. You we know that it took a member of Knesset, of course, you know, our our rabbi and our teacher, Rabbi Gilad Kareev to intervene. And then finally, the mayor of the city is, you know, had agreed to send a police unit to, you know, to stay outside the building. Why did that not happen earlier? And, you know, what is the reaction? from government officials and the police, you know. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, well, you know, we finally now feel that the police is taking this seriously and, we'll have to wait and see. It seems that they're finally doing their job and that's important. You know, we have to keep on pressing and to make sure this is not something that, you know, goes without any response. And obviously this is not, should not be the situation and, you know, we should stand with Kora and Shalani and support them and demand, you know, justice. But I think it's really sort of, you know, tying it into what we want to speak about today. It's really thinking about Josh Weinberg: Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: what we can do in the face of such very, very disturbing things. And we have so many of those phenomenon happening around us, both in Israel and the US. And I think that really when we are beginning this new Hebrew year, it's a very, very critical moment for both Israel and the United States, right? Both our countries are heading into very, very critical elections in just a couple of weeks. And in both our countries, democratic institutions are under attack. many people who care about our values feel they need to do something, but also they're very exhausted after the struggle of so many years. So think today what we want to do is not only speak about how things are really, really, really concerning, but what we can do about this, right? How we can organize people around the values that are important to us and how we can turn really our concern into action and how can we do it with a coalition of other people even when we have some relationships that are more problematic. the other, and also to talk obviously about the relationship between liberal Jews with Israel in the current circumstances. Josh Weinberg: Well, absolutely. And there's really no better person to talk about that than our guest today. We are so honored to have Rabbi Jonah Dov Pesner. Many of leaders will recognize Rabbi Pesner from his years and decades of work in this field. But of course, Rabbi Pesner is the director of the Religious Action Center of Reform Judaism and the senior vice president of the Union for Reform Judaism. He has led the RAC since 2015 and throughout his career is focused on organizing Jewish communities across lines of race, class, and faith around social justice, civil rights, and coalition building, which we'll talk about today. He also founded Just Congregations, which brought clergy and lay leaders together for interfaith organizing and advocacy. Rabbi Pessners of course, someone with whom I work very closely and I see as a teacher and a mentor. And Jonah, it is great to have you with us today. Thank you so much for being here. Rabbi Jonah Pesner: my gosh, are you kidding? I am speaking to two of my heroes. I mean, Rabbi Josh Weinberg is like the most articulate, brilliant American Reform Zionist I know, who holds our values and is just an inspiration to me. Thank you, Josh, for everything you've taught me. And orally Aeroslachovsky. I mean, if I want to have a calling card, I walk into any any Reform synagogue or any important gathering and I say, I am if you want to understand what I do, I'm the Orly Eros Lachovsky of the United States. And they say, that's what you do. I say, Well, I don't do it as well. But I love you both. Orly Erez Likhovski: Well, I present myself as the Jonah Pessner of Israel. Rabbi Jonah Pesner: We're you know, we're in good company, at least to each other and our mothers are very proud. It's all good. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, thank you, Jonah. It's really pleasure to have you. And I want to begin, know, kick us off by thinking about really at this point of beginning, you know, the year 5787. What are you thinking about now? And when you look at what's happening in the US and in Israel, in our own reform communities, what feels most urgent to you that we should do at this moment? For sure. Rabbi Jonah Pesner: Have joy. No, I'm serious. Okay, so f before we jump into the politics, let's just Josh Weinberg: Why didn't you say so before? mean, that, you know, that, Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah Rabbi Jonah Pesner: I mean, come on, but bury the lead. We just for Josh Weinberg: yeah. Yeah. Rabbi Jonah Pesner: when we're recording this, it was just Yom Kippur. We literally stood before the open ark. The synagogue I was at, the rabbis, you know, brilliantly at the at Ni Ila, they have the entire congregation, nearly a thousand people, come up to the Bhima and all stand before the open ark, doing the patachlanu, open the gates, open the gates, open them wide with a plea to the Holy One to collectively And the minute it was over and habdallah, we turn to Havdallah and then break the fast, and then the banging of the nail into the first board of the Sukkah, and we turned to Zman Simcha Tainu. And I just like there's so much, understandably, fear, pain, horror between the anti-Semitism in the United States and the bombing of synagogues and the cancellation of Jews, but also in Israel, a reformed congregation being attacked by other Jews. Sinathinam, the antidote throughout Jewish history is Jewish joy. Like 3,000 years, we have just carried on with dancing and singing. So what's top of mind for me, what's urgent, is to remind my Jews take a deep breath. We've been here before. My grandma Fanny did not escape the pogroms of Europe when she was 16 years old. She, you know, I there's this legend in my family. When my when I was a little boy and I would ask my grandma Fanny, are you Russian? She would say, No. I'm not Russian. I'm Jewish. I'd say, but you're from Russia. She says, I don't even speak Russian. I speak Jewish, which was Yiddish. And I would say, why is this? And she said, Yonala, because when I was a little girl, your great grandpa had to dig a hole under the floorboards of the house so I would have a place to hide from the Tsar's armies who would come to kidnap the boys and rape the girls. Your ra the rabbi of my town was dragged to his death by his beard. She said, that's why I'm not Russian. And I realized to be a Jew was to be dangerous, but to be a Jew was also to be like my grandma Fanny, who used to love to cook huge Shabbos dinners and host breakfast and cook for Seder. And we still, for years, had her frozen stuffed cabbage in the freezer. Every year we would take out one more portion. Right. And there was so much joy in her life despite what she had seen. So if we've done this for 3,000 years, we're not done yet. We've got 3,000 more at least ahead of us. And we're gonna dance, we're gonna sing. So what's urgent to me is to tell my Jews, let's go into our Sukkot and let's rejoice, let's welcome in our guests, our not Jewish people, expose our Gentile friends to the joy of Jewish living, and let's shake the Lulaf and the Etrog and then dance with the Torahs. And Orly Erez Likhovski: And not let fear and threats define us, right? Which is really important. Josh Weinberg: Right. Rabbi Jonah Pesner: Now if you want to talk about politics Josh Weinberg: It's almost the opposite of yeah, it's almost the opposite of Bobby McFerrin. Like, you know, we should we should worry and also be happy. You know, we should. Yeah. Right. Rabbi Jonah Pesner: Correct. Yes, worry and be happy. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah. Josh Weinberg: Exactly. But let's get to the heart of the issue at the beginning here. And we often speak about the importance of protecting democracy, especially when that's not a theoretical question or not a theoretical issue right now. We are seeing both in the United States and in Israel. serious, I would say systematic threats to the democratic institutions and democratic Orly Erez Likhovski: you Josh Weinberg: system that we have, that we know that protects minorities, that we know that, you know, maintains equality and justice for all. And we hold that up as a value in the reform movement very high. But at the risk of asking sort of the obvious, know, Jonah, you've dedicated much of your career to organizing around democracy, civil, political rights, justice. Explain to us the basic of why this is a Jewish value. Where does this come from to say, as Jews, one of our most important obligations is in fact to ensure equality and justice through a democratic system. Rabbi Jonah Pesner: Yeah, I mean, let I think we should, as you would always teach me, Josh, start with our sources, right? And like let's be rooted in our text. And then we can talk about kind of like the values, the American and Israeli values that we share. and as my mentor Rabbi Sapersny would say, if you want to find a proof text for democracy in the Jewish tradition, you're not gonna find it. Okay, because democracy in its real form is a relatively contemporary and and certainly a modern invention. Like in ancient Greece. Democracy was lovely if you were a man and a landowner and a slave owner. You know, it was a relatively small group of people who benefited from democracy. I don't think had there been Jews, you know, they would have thrived under Greek democracy. So, you know, I think it we're gonna be naive if we think we could just go to Deuteronomy and be like, Setic, setic, tier dove. Democracy, right? It it isn't true. That said, I'm thinking a lot about sitting in shul on Yom Kippur morning. And hearing attendits of imhayom, kulchem, right? You are all gathered in this space today, each and every one of you, from the most elite of society to the least moneyed and most vulnerable, from the wood chipper to the water bearer, right? The full multitude, men, women, children, all of you. And that call to the covenant was that the covenant is inclusive. Some might even would argue of the whole mixed multitude that stood at Sinai, those who were born of the Hebraic Israelite tribal community, and those that were not, that were just swept up like with Abraham and Sarah, all of the souls that they made back in the original covenantal moment. So I think we have to understand there's this enduring Jewish value about an inclusive communitarian covenant. I would argue Israeli democracy. An American democracy is the modern expression of that covenantal Sanaitic moment in which every person is seen, is heard, and is valued by the collective commitment to covenant. Remember, when God offers the Torah to the children of Israel, all in one voice we say, All of this, Naase Venishma, we'll all do all of Josh Weinberg: Thank you. Rabbi Jonah Pesner: this, and we will all. Hear this and then be heard. We call our campaign for democracy every voice, every vote. And for your Hebrew listeners, you'll know like the pun, kol, kolot, because in Hebrew, kol means both vote and voice. Because we Orly Erez Likhovski: And yeah. Rabbi Jonah Pesner: have this almost theological belief that a voice can actually Josh Weinberg: Close, right, yeah, yeah. Rabbi Jonah Pesner: be heard when the actual vote is counted. And by the way, I didn't make this up. The luminaries of the American Civil Rights Movement, Martin Luther King Jr., All of the African Americans, Chuck McDow, who is black by birth, Jewish by choice, and a revolutionary by necessity, Rabbi Tikhirsh, our mentor and predecessor, and the builder of the Israel Movement for Progressive Judaism and the World Union for Progressive Judaism, who marched with King and Selma and would say Zionism is a liberatory movement and a social justice theology, ideology, understood that the Voting Rights Act was the concrete program of civil rights and an inclusive multiracial democracy, which would be rooted in that covenantal idea that every voice is heard and therefore every vote is counted. So that's what I think is ext at stake. I think it was brilliant. If you read, and I do it every year, thanks to you, Josh, we have it, in the offices of the Religious Action Center, the Israeli Declaration of Independence, a transformational document which is right over your shoulder for those that are watching, which aligns so beautifully Democratic values and human rights in deep, enduring Jewish text and tradition. So there's a lot at stake for us religiously and theologically as Jews. And then just to the modern day, I would say whether you live in Israel or in the United States or in Canada or across the globe, wait for it. Our safety as Jews, as a minority, 2% of the population in America, infantesimal. Population percentage in the world, our safety is in our solidarity with others who will stand with us and with whom we will stand, and our redemption and our thriving as a people could yet come with an inclusive multiracial democracy in which everybody thrives. Whew. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, well, yeah. Yeah, go ahead, Josh. Sure. Josh Weinberg: No, first, thank you. Can I just add one question on that? Because I think it's so important to ground us in everything that you just said, because oftentimes when we try and balance what some may call universalism versus particularism, or we're accused of sort of the cliche phrase, do tikkun olam Judaism, which we have a lot to say about, but in Hebrew... Rabbi Jonah Pesner: How do you say that, by the way? what is that in Hebrew? How do you say, Orly Erez Likhovski: in Hebrew, yeah. Rabbi Jonah Pesner: Echon mim tikuna lambiv? Josh Weinberg: It's so funny. just say tangentially that I was working with a group of Israeli teenagers and we did a mitzvah equalizer to sort of to see, you know, they would rank which mitzvah to them were more important. And I listed, I just put Tikkun Olam and they came up to me and said, what is Tikkun Olam? They're like, what is it? They meant like, what do you mean by that? But it was just interesting, the pshat to say like, know, what is Tikkun Olam? Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah. Rabbi Jonah Pesner: Thank you. Josh Weinberg: And like, okay. Right, right. It was. Rabbi Jonah Pesner: Mas eu te merde. Josh Weinberg: It was fascinating. But just to say that sometimes, you know, the protection of democracy, yeah. Rabbi Jonah Pesner: By the way, by the way, they should really ask Letakenolam Bamahuchadai Mazed Duke. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah. Josh Weinberg: Right, a music should Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah. Josh Weinberg: die. Right, right. Rabbi Jonah Pesner: And we should for the English people read it it's lit a keno lum to repair the world in the almighty's kingdom or sovereignty, like Josh Weinberg: Yeah, yeah, you're under God essentially, know, and yeah, but you know, we often are sometimes the perception of the reform movement is that, you we are a universalist movement or basically, you know, liberal, you know, liberals who find Jewish values to see things. And I think that the way that you grounded our commitment to the world essentially that we want to live in through this democratic system is so critically important. And is that, you know, when you get those, I don't know, an accusation or, you know, some people coming at us and saying like, well, you know, that's not Jewish, actually, that's nice and liberal for universal fans. You know, do you find the need to connect those and emphasize that? And, you I also find myself sitting at lots of tables where I'm the only liberal or reform Jew. I say, you know, why, why is that not emphasized in other movements or other streams more? How do you deal with that sort of, you know, that that conversation or that discourse? Rabbi Jonah Pesner: First of all, it's a compliment. Because it says we matter. If they're so Josh Weinberg: Yeah. Rabbi Jonah Pesner: concerned about reformed Judaism, they must really take us seriously. Like the people that bombed Kolonishema must really know that Kolonishema is important and relevant and doing something. Otherwise, Josh Weinberg: Mmm. Rabbi Jonah Pesner: they would ignore it. So I say thank you. Okay? And it's Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, completely. We are definitely a threat. That's true. Rabbi Jonah Pesner: and it means what we are doing matters to you. Okay, so that's good. Number two, I understand it's rooted in a reality, right? Most tropes. Have some kind of root in reality. And I think Reformed Judaism has always lived in this kind of dialogue between modernity and antiquity, between universalism and particularism. And at different moments in history, as our as our teacher, Rabbi Rick Jacobs, after October 7th, gave a brilliant and inspired sermon that people should find on YouTube, in which he said in Jewish life, there are times we lean into Jewish peoplehood and there are times we lean into Jewish universalism. This is a moment where we need to lean into Jewish people. Peoplehood because our people are hurting, and that's what's called for. I would be remiss if I didn't lift up our sage Rabbi Hillow. And I know it's like so trite, he gets quoted so often, but people don't listen to the depth of the words because he holds the tension so beautifully. If I'm not for myself, who will be for me? Right. So it starts with a self. It starts with an individual saying, I have to be a me. I can't start as an other. Which means Jewish peoplehood begins with Jewish peoplehood, which is why we started with our Torah and our text and our tradition and what it means to be as Jews who are democratic or Jews who care about human rights. Dr. King marched with Rabbi Dick Hirsch. Dick Hirsch was fully there as a Jew. Heschel was praying, it was as if his legs were praying. Jewish prayers. So we start there. But if I am for myself alone, or and The V, which in Hebrew is a beautiful connective, doesn't mean but and also connect. Uhshanim. What am I? And this is the beautiful. This to me is the ikar. He doesn't say who Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, completely. Rabbi Jonah Pesner: am I, right? He says, What am I? In other words, if you stop being for others and you're for yourself alone, you become not a who, but a what. You become an object, not a person. You're you lose your personhood, you lose your soul. And then of course. Call to action, if not now when. My point to this is Hill was not troubled by this. He just found bound up an incredible, enduring truth that it's both are true. So Reformed Judaism is rooted in Jewish peoplehood. And by the way, all of Jewish history, God started with the universal. God started with Adam, Eve, Cain, Abel, Noach. How did that go? Right? Universalism was a failure. So God turns to Avram and Sarai and says, Let's start a different way. Let's start with the particular, and then you shall be a blessing to all the nations of the world. So you get to the universal through the particular. So anybody who accuses me of being a universalist, Josh Weinberg: Mmm, that's nice. Yeah. Rabbi Jonah Pesner: I say you have not read my Torah. You haven't read my sermons, because I always start with it. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah. Josh Weinberg: or that we use the particular to reach the universal. But yeah, please. Yeah. Rabbi Jonah Pesner: Nachhone video. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think Jonah, it's great really setting sort of the framework, but let's talk Tachlis a little bit, okay? We want to talk about organizing, how we're going to take those beliefs and turn them into action. And really you and the RAC have been such an inspiration to us here in Israel. And we at IREC are really fortunate to learn from you about your organizing work that you've been doing for so many years. So please share with us what is... your secret for successful community organizing Rabbi Jonah Pesner: Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: in general and in the reform world in particular. Rabbi Jonah Pesner: First of all, I have no secret, and our success is only what it is, right? I mean, if we were really successful, the world would be a vastly more just and humane place, and Jews would be more safe, and all people would be more safe. So Josh Weinberg: and you'd all be unemployed, so that'd be great. Orly Erez Likhovski: I Rabbi Jonah Pesner: Exactly, I wouldn't have a job. So, you know, I'm I'm humbled by the reality. really humbled by the reality. So, but we have had some impact. So, you know, as as challenging as the world is, I hope more people are more safe and more thriving as a result, even though the world writ large is a less compassionate place than it was when I started 30 years ago. Okay, this is what it is. again, for me, the secret or the Kind of North Star is taken from our text. And it was taken from a brilliant non-Jew, our friend Yitro, the prophet Jethro, or the priest, the Midianite high priest. Because when Moses, and I think it's chapter 18 of Exodus, when Moses has finally led the people out of Egypt, and they are journeying, they have passed through the 300 years of the horrors of enslavement and the brutality. Of Pharaoh and the murder of the firstborn and all of that, the plagues and the and the sea, and they're they're trying to journey to the promised land, they get stuck. And why are they stuck? Because Moses is adjudicating every dispute among the Israelites. And you can imagine the picture. There's like 600,000 Israelites all in line waiting to talk to Moses. And Moses. Orly Erez Likhovski: You think about Americans, I think about Israelis, they're pushing and no line. It's just a mess. Yeah. Rabbi Jonah Pesner: Yeah, I know. Yeshtor a flator, a tabator, Josh Weinberg: Yeah. Rabbi Jonah Pesner: a intor, right? Like Josh Weinberg: Yeah. Rabbi Jonah Pesner: exactly. In America, they'd be in a in a single file line waiting very patiently, and nobody would be, you know, everybody would be sh they'd be friars at the back. But be that as it may, no, everyone is angry, everybody's frustrated. Moses is sitting down, everybody else is standing, so they're exhausted. And all of a sudden, who shows up? But Moses' non Jewish father in law, Jethro the Midianite priest, with Sepur and the kids, and brings them and says, Let me reintroduce you to your family, which by the way is a Agitation to all leaders, you better stay connected to your family, to your Shabbat table, to your to your Sabbath, and not just be about the work. He says, And he says, Tell me the whole story of what happened. And he tells them the story. And Jethro, the high priest, says, Baruch Yahweh. He says this Hebrew prayer about the prediction, blessed is Adonai. So he really leans into Moses'. And then he says, now Moses, I have a question. What are you doing right now? And Moses says, Well, I'm adjudicating every dispute because you know they come to me and I have to decide. Who's right and who's wrong? And Jethro famously says, What you're doing is terrible. It's not good for them. It's not good for you. Now you listen to me. Here's the wisdom, right, of a not Jew, an outsider. You have to trust the people. You have to identify capable, talented, ethical leaders and trust them to interpret the Torah and let them bring you the disputes that are very, very hard and you can work it out with them. But they should also ordain you should have leaders of thousands, leaders of hundreds, leaders of tens. Now you can imagine how the dynamic shifts. Instead of one leader to 600,000 Jews, now you have one in ten Israelite is a leader. The Marshall Gand's at Harvard's like to say, overnight you go from one leader to 60,000 leaders, all distributed. Orly Erez Likhovski: It's also the beginning of separation of powers, right? I mean, you don't have to concentrate everything in one person. You have to actually have different people sharing the burden. Rabbi Jonah Pesner: Power is shared. Power is shared. Decision making is shared. So the the the, I wouldn't say the secret, but I think the first step is to identify leaders, train them, engage them. They shouldn't make it up on their own. It's Torah, right? Teach them the Torah, but then trust them to lead their people in small groups. So picture, instead of one line, now they're all in circles, and instead of seeing the back of someone's head, Who's next? Who's they're in small groups looking at each other's faces and experience Torah through their faces? So it's about leaders who engage in relationships, like they actually build communities, and then together they act, they make decisions, they can move forward and they can start moving again together towards the promised land. If you ask me concretely what that means is we start not from the top down at in the reform movement, we start from the bottom up. We go into our synagogues, we have rabbis, we trust them. They have leaders, they engage their people in a collective decision, they study the Torah together, and they say, What's the thing that's so broken in our society that it's worthy of our Jewish values and our time to fix it? And then what we try and do as a reform movement with our two point one million Jews and all of their family and friends, which means millions of people, is harness all of those leaders, all of those stories, all of that energy into campaigns where we can herd cats and move them together. It's not an accident that right now our focus is democracy. Because if you go to any reformed synagogue in North America, or frankly, any synagogue I would say in the IMPJ in the Reformed Movement Israel, and you ask them, What is your number one concern? They're going to say, Is our future secure? Are we going to be a democracy where we're safe and where we can actually have our values be protected? It looks different in Israel, obviously, where there are other existential threats like Iran, like terrorism, in addition to the racism of Ben Gvir and Smotrich. And the racist regime, as it close to the United States, where there's both anti-Semitism here, Josh Weinberg: you Rabbi Jonah Pesner: but there's also an understanding that the authoritarian backslide of this administration is not helping Jews and not keeping us safe. But that's how we organize our people is around their fears, their concerns, their hopes, enduring Jewish values, and what we can do together. Josh Weinberg: want to build on that actually because now the focus is democracy, which is a fairly broad topic, if you will. And sometimes you wake up in the morning and reading the news and it can be overwhelming to just look at the slew of issues that are plaguing us right now, whether that's the environmental ecological crisis or immigration or reproductive rights or know, gun violence or, you know, what have you, or just, you know, injustice in the political system and race and all of it and all of it. And so, you know, sometimes we feel like we need to boil the ocean. And how do you be discerning and determine which issues we should in fact focus on? you know, as you know, we can't be everything to everyone or solve every issue. So how do you go through that process? And I know IRAC has had a similar process as well in terms of how do we focus our energy instead of spreading ourselves too thin here? Rabbi Jonah Pesner: No, it's a it's wonderful that in organizing we teach a framework called moving from problem to issue. There's a lot of problems. Climate change, it's a disaster, threats to democracy. How do we cut the issue? Right? Something that is actionable, that is winnable, that is deeply and widely held by our people so that they'll act on it where we can win. So I'll give you an example. Like everybody's worried about democracy and and what's gonna happen in the next election in the United States. And so if you look at our every voice, every vote campaign and you can go to rack.org, ric.org, and you can literally see what we're doing, the way we cut that issue is we said, look, we are we are not going to alone save democracy. But where can we actually make a real difference that when you add it up with all the other efforts could actually protect our democracy the l this election? We have 50 teams in 50 local communities where rabbis, Jewish professionals, clergy, cantors, lay leaders are in trainings right now. To learn how to gather with multi-faith partners, to have meetings with poll workers, boards of election, local law enforcement, local elected officials, to make a collective commitment in an interfaith multiracial way to protect the polling places, to protect early voting, to protect mail in voting in case there are violent threats, or frankly, in case there are federal interventions, that we have to have local police. And local elected officials literally create a circle of protection around our democracy. I I would say we practiced at this when we were seeing the ice raids in the United States, whether it was in New Orleans, Chicago, Los Angeles, or most acutely in Minneapolis, where Renee Good and Alex Prady were killed by ICE agents. Our rabbis, cantors, together with our layleaders, joined with priests and pastors and ministers, and local law enforcement. This was, by the way, the land of George Floyd, where local law enforcement and the local community had such distrust six years ago. They've rebuilt so much trust over the last six years that folks were saying, call 911 because the local police will stand between ICE and the local humans, the people. And so while we were doing that in Minneapolis, we were pr pr practicing what you do when federal agents interfere. By the way, Josh Weinberg: you Rabbi Jonah Pesner: as a side note, Jewish people threat history, we know how danger it is. When agents of the state are used to kidnap, disappear, or act violently against people. I invoked my grandma Fanny at the beginning. Those were the Cossacks, the agents Orly Erez Likhovski: Right. Yeah. Rabbi Jonah Pesner: of the Tsar. So whether it's the Pharaoh, the Tsar, Hitler, Josh Weinberg: Thank Rabbi Jonah Pesner: or whomever, when the authoritarian uses agents of the state, Jews are not safe. So Josh Weinberg: Mmm. Rabbi Jonah Pesner: back to Minnesota. So we're in there actually standing in accordance of safety and solidarity, protecting the most vulnerable people. People who are stuck in their homes, they can't buy diapers for their children because they're afraid of being rounded up by ice. Fulton County, Georgia, their polling places were raided by federal agents. So we understood this was a warm-up act. It's a test to see how much the federal government can get away with in intervening in local activities, whether it's local protection of the most vulnerable or local elections. So where we know we can make a difference is protecting our polling places. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yes. Josh Weinberg: And say something about that also in terms of religious institutions and schools and were we involved at all in protecting. Rabbi Jonah Pesner: I love that. Thank you. The reform movement in the United States is actually a litigant, a plaintiff, and a lawsuit suing this administration because when they came into office, there was the rescission of what was called the sensitive locations policy. So, Orly, for your Israeli listeners, it was standard practice that ICE, which is the Homeland Security Department that is doing all this, these raids of undocumented people of by the way, people who are here legitimately, asylum seekers. TPS holders who are Haitian and other refugees who came here legally, but the administration is trying to round up and deport. It had been practiced that you couldn't, ICE agents couldn't go into religious institutions, hospitals, or schools. Well, they rolled that back, which means federal agents could raid synagogues, churches, and mosques, any religious institution. So this affects black churches, this affects Catholic churches, this affects evangelical white churches. So we're in a plaintiff suing the administration to to that that's unconstitutional or violates religious freedom. And it's a religious freedom claim that is religious people. And by the way, they did. We have one synagogue where I showed up, banged on the door, and demanded that they that they hand over somebody who to turn out not even to be there. It was a one of the many mistakes that Homeland Security made. But the executive director at that synagogue had been one of th one through one of their trainings, one of our trainings. And said, Well, where's your judicial warrant? And I said, we don't have that. And he said, Until you have a judicial warrant and they went away, they never came back. So our people are ready, they're trained, and they are doing what they can do. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, I think it's really amazing when you spoke about how we can protect our elections and the polling stations. This is just identical to the work we're doing here in Israel. thinking about how, Josh, you referred to it, how do we in Israel decide which cases we deal with and which cases we don't. think that in Israel, it's very, we are looking for our unique liberal Jewish voice that could add that others are not there, where we could really make a difference. through this Jewish liberal lens, which I think is very, very necessary, especially this atmosphere. But I want to ask you, Jonah, because I think in both our countries, you spoke about Jethro and Moses and the people so exhausted standing in line. I think exhaustion is something that really combines us. I mean, we've been through so much. And my question is, you want to organize people, how do you get them going? Because people are tired, people are angry, people are afraid. How do you turn those emotions into action? that's like a real challenge. Rabbi Jonah Pesner: Yeah. It's a great question. First of all, before I answer the question, I also want to lift up I think, Orly, what you are doing at Iraq and what the reform movement is doing at Israel is not liberal Jewish values, it's just Jewish values. And Josh Weinberg: Totally. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, Rabbi Jonah Pesner: I think we have to own that. Orly Erez Likhovski: it's really reclaiming Judaism to what it is, but a lot Rabbi Jonah Pesner: No hold Orly Erez Likhovski: of people have come to associate Judaism with very other values, which were not liberal values. We are sort of bringing... Rabbi Jonah Pesner: But when they see what you're doing in the name of Judaism, not liberal Judaism, I know it's I i we have the same struggle here. Is it reformed Jewish values or just Jewish values? Is it reform Zionism or is it just Zionism? Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, right. Right. Yeah. Right. Rabbi Jonah Pesner: Angela Buchdal gave a brilliant sermon over the holidays in which she said, we have to reclaim Zionism and be very clear. Orly Erez Likhovski: outside is right. Yeah. Yeah. Rabbi Jonah Pesner: Ben Gvir and Smotrich are not Zionists. They're actually heretics when it comes to Zionism. We're actually the Zionists. So, but Orly Erez Likhovski: Completely. Rabbi Jonah Pesner: be that as it may, I think that's part of the answer, which is helping Jews reclaim the joy in what they're doing. my grandma Fanny, I'm sure she was exhausted. Sixteen years of pogroms for her to get herself here with, by the way, and then help get her parents here and her family here. I mean, my lord, I don't have the luxury of being exhausted. But if I say that to my people, it's a bit of shaming them. You know what? After 3,000 years of Jewish history at the Holocaust of pogroms, you know, you are exhausted? This is nothing, but I want them to feel good. So I think we don't just organize out of fear. We have to organize out of hope. And this is where I love the fact that Israel has gotten this right. Sometimes the United States Jewish community and Canadian community forget. Our early Zionists called it Hatikva for a reason. I think fundamentally we look at our North Star of what's possible, the world as it could be. This gets back to Lita Ken Olam, Bamalhut Shaddai. We're trying to repair the world in service of this vision, this incredible inspired vision of the world as it could be. A world where there's room at everybody for the at the table, where there's abundance, where everybody thrives, where we can dance with joy and not be afraid, where we can proclaim the miracle with our chana kyotes in the public square. This is actually where I admire my Chabad siblings who put the Khanakia right in the public square because they're proclaiming the miracle. We should be joyful. So I try and ask people: what gives you hope? Who's inspired you? Who are the ancestors that have called you to this day. And, you know, I think there was some exhaustion, you know, at the beginning of this current cycle. But as people have seen the horrors of the ice raids and as people have seen the threats to democracy, they've kind of woken up and said, We don't have the luxury of being exhausted. We have three thousand years of tradition. Orly Erez Likhovski: And I also action gives you hope, right? Doing this, being inside this amazing work that you are doing gives you meaning and creates hope, right? With whatever you're doing, it sort of creates your of agency. Rabbi Jonah Pesner: Well, that's actually that I'm I'm glad you said that because both action, then people feel like they could do something. And by the way, part of part of the question is how do we sometimes we win with a small group of people who can kind of do a deal in a back room, but how do you have everybody feel the win? Because they have to feel it. People have to so I think acting, pe getting people in action, winning so that people can see it's possible. And then we've got to celebrate more. Like really, if people don't get a chance to Celebrate when we win, rejoice, dance with the Torahs, and then you got to get them back in action again. I get that. So all the things that you're doing, all of the different, you know, the hundred congregations, however many there are now with Ufaratsta in Israel, is it a hundred or am I over? Am I building up the fifty-five. All right. nearly a hundred. They the you can round up. Orly Erez Likhovski: No, no, it's around 55. Josh Weinberg: 55. Orly Erez Likhovski: But you know, yeah, but you know, we're not only looking about our congregations, right? I mean, we have so many Israelis going and having bar mitzvahs and bat mitzvahs and weddings and looking for this, like looking for this Judaism that speaks to them, right? And we're seeing a huge increase in that. Right. Rabbi Jonah Pesner: And maybe the actions that you're running, they can join in and that would be their way and say, here's a Judaism that reflects my deep Jewish values. Josh Weinberg: And Orly, correct me if I'm wrong, but for so many years, the emphasis was on Kehila, and now it's also possible for one to join individually as part of the reform movement and to say, I'm in. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, we have sort of this reform network that really offers Israelists to come be part of us, even if you're not part of congregation, because you identify with our values. Yeah, completely, for sure. Josh Weinberg: Yeah, yeah. So let's look at this moment right now that we're in. We're about a month and four days away from Israel's elections and about five weeks away from the U.S. midterm elections. You know, both very tense moments here that we're looking at. so, Jonah, what should we be watching most closely and where are the areas you think that we can realistically influence or make a difference? Where do you see the really high tension areas as we're approaching, at least in the US? And we'll speak more about Israel as well. Yeah. Rabbi Jonah Pesner: Yeah, well let me start with Israel actually because I want to give a shout out to you, Rabbi Weinberg and and Rabbi Lindsay Danziger and your whole team. There is a letter circulating right now, and I don't know if in the chat or the notes or wherever you can post a link to it. Yeah. Josh Weinberg: We'll put in the notes, yeah. Rabbi Jonah Pesner: Every American Jew and is it North American-wide, Josh, or globally, or is it just international, yeah. Any Josh Weinberg: It's actually international. It's anywhere in the diaspora. Yeah, yeah. Rabbi Jonah Pesner: Jewish member of the diaspora needs to sign this letter on if you care about the existential Decision being made at the polls this year in Israel. We're strictly nonpartisan, so we we are not endorsing a particular party in Israel. But Israelis are making a choice. and your choice will impact the entire Jewish future and global Jewry. You are either choosing democracy, you are either choosing human rights, a path for a sustainable, secure, just, and humane peace, and a future with your neighbors, your Palestinian neighbors, with the humans who are living and suffering in Gaza, with the people just a few miles away in the West Bank who are suffering terribly under the West Bank settler violence and a a racist regime that has turned its eyes away, in fact is being enabled by the, you know, Ben Gvir-Smotrich kind of forces of government, that is going to make a choice about human rights and democracy while protecting enduring Jewish values and safety and not being fear-mongered into voting in a way that would I think create a much longer term existential threat to the Jewish future because it's not sustainable. and every time I have this argument with some of the you know, extremists in Israel, they say it's sustainable. You know, they think they can fight their way out of any conflict. The world is turning against Israel. American Jews are turning against Israel because they see with their own eyes. And I it's not fair. I don't turn against the United States just because I'm loath of the policies of this government, because I see what the ICE raids are doing. Because I I'm scared of the rollbacks of democracy. I love America. I love Israel. I'll never give up on my love of Israel. Never. And that's why I am so adamant. If you care about Israel and you love Israel, vote for Israel's future, which won't just come through violence and through army and war. It will have to come through some kind of diplomatic, negotiated settlement with an honest assessment of what it means to be a a country among other countries. And need allies and need friends and need to live your values. The declaration, vote for the declaration of independence. That's all. Just walk into your polling place with the declaration of independence. And your diaspora Jews need you to do that because we need there to be an Israel and we need there to keep us safe. And we need there to be an Israel we can advocate for and be proud of. At the same time, we need an America. If you're voting in America that we can be proud of. So again, we're nonpartisan. We don't tell you which person to vote for or which party to vote for. And Jews are in a bit of a squeeze because they have to decide on individual candidates. And there are individual candidates on now both sides of the political aisle who are demonizing Israel, who are demonizing Jews, whether that's intentional or not, and throwing Jews under the bus because it's like they're they're doing these litmus tests of like, well, there's good Jews, and then there's the Zionists. And so it's a real dilemma. Do we vote for a person whose policies may be domestically against everything we care about, but is demonizing Jews and demonizing Israel? Or do we vote for the So all I can say is people should walk in to the polling place with their enduring Jewish values and take the bigger picture. There is both the individual person and the individual race, and there is the bigger picture about where this country is and where it's going. And I I can't counsel people and I wouldn't on individual races or parties because we're nonpartisan. but democracy is once again on the ballot on the ballot, and whether this country is going to lean into what George Washington, you know, famously said when he, of course, you know, said to the Jews of Rhode Island: this will be a country that gives bigotry no sanction and persecution no assistance. It gives bigotry no sanction and persecution. No assistance. I think it's an existential question for us. By the way, George Washington didn't write that. The Jews of Rhode Island wrote that in his l their letter to him and he repeated it back to them. So Josh Weinberg: Mmm. Rabbi Jonah Pesner: it was Jewish Americans that asked the question, what will this country look like? and I know it's hard. It's really hard for people. I've talked to a lot of Jews who feel politically homeless. They feel like they don't have a choice. I think I c again can't counsel individuals, but the long-term future. For the United States democracy and for Israel's security is to leaning into human rights and leaning into democracy. I think that's what will keep Jews safe. And we need an Israeli government that can hold the tension. And we need a American elected officials who have the courage to say, we support Zionism, we support Israel and Israel's right to exist, which means a two state solution and getting Israel to find a path to peace without punishing Israel, but inviting Israel to be its best self. Orly Erez Likhovski: I think this is being talked more about in Israel, about how Israel is perceived in America and about the fact that Netanyahu has brought about the situation where instead of bipartisan support, we have bipartisan animosity against Israel, which is really insane. And I think that the numbers are striking the fact that Israel is perceived so unfavorably by Americans now. And I want to ask you, do you think that if there is a change of government to Israel, You think it's obviously it's not nothing is going to change overnight, right? But the question is how reversible is it and how can it make a difference? Because the situation is difficult. Rabbi Jonah Pesner: I am deeply worried. If there's not a change of government, and again, we're not partisan, it's not this particular government or party, it's the coalition and the coalition's policies. So if the coalition and the coalition's policies don't change, then we're really in trouble. So just to all of my friends who might be out with the thing, you I just endorsed a particular party, let me be super clear. Josh Weinberg: I think in both places. Rabbi Jonah Pesner: We are nonpartisan. If the current government's policies and coalition behind those policies continue, we're in trouble. If there is a new coalition with new policies and new values, there is hope. But I'm worried because it's not like all of a sudden the disaster that is happening in Gaza, and more to the point, the disaster in the West Bank, many of my, you know, kind of most staunch Israel defenders, but who are kind of democratic and and not as small d democratic. They care about democracy, Josh Weinberg: liberal at heart, right? Rabbi Jonah Pesner: say, look. Gaza, at least we can say there was a brutal, horrific, genocidal pogrom against the Jews. So we understand why there was a response in Gaza, whether one wants to argue about proportionality or what have you, at least there was an understanding of why we had to go into Gaza and get the hostages home and get Hamas out. But the violence against just innocent families in the West Bank is unexplainable and indefensible. So it will take time. We'll have to see if there's a shift in coalition and shift in policies, how those policies actually show human lives doing better, both in Gaza and in the West Bank, even as Jews in Israel and Israeli as Palestinian citizens of Israel, their lives are also better and they are also feeling more safe. If we see that actually happening, it's but we're never going back to where we were. You know, there will always now be voices in both parties that are questioning why the US has this special relationship with Israel. Is it about shared values? Do those values really line up? If it's about strategic interests, do those interests line up? And you're seeing this in both political parties. So we need to have an Israeli coalition that will center not just our values, but that will be intentional and strategic. How to again rebuild a bipartisan consensus in the bell curve, not the extremes, but Republicans on one Part of the tip of the bell curve and Democrats in the other, that Israel both shares our values from what the policies we see and our interests. Josh Weinberg: So I wanna pick up on that and I wanna get a bit granular because we're seeing this exact conversation play out in many races across the United States right now. We saw it in the primaries that took place over the summer and we're gonna see it on November 3rd. Jonah, how are you seeing this discussion take place in, whether it's congressional, House of Representatives, senatorial campaigns coming out where... Israel becomes sort of the wedge issue almost and there are even use. Sometimes it's code. Sometimes it's very blatant in terms of who took money from a pack. Sometimes a pack is a code for the Jews, the Zionists, Israel, all of those things. And how are you seeing this play out in very specific races and how should we how should we react to it, especially when it comes with. Sometimes subtle but sometimes not so subtle anti-semitic tropes about money power and political influence That come out here. I think I think it's you know, lot of people are worried about it and and and and don't know You know how to how to react Rabbi Jonah Pesner: Yeah, I would say, as I lifted up Rabbi Angela Buchdal earlier and her brilliant sermon on Zionism and why we should all embrace Zionism and really lean into the beauty of Zionism, I'd recommend people listen to Rachel Timoner at Congregation Beth Elohim in Brooklyn, who you know, and by the way, this is the reform movement. You we have APAC activists, we have J Street activists. We really represent the two point one million reform Jews, the diverse array of Jewish life, and that's a good thing. That's beautiful. It's very Hillal and Shammai, and that's Lashem Shemayam, right? There's this machloket, Lashem Shemaiam, about the best way to love Israel, about the best way to be Zionist. But there's kind of a broad agreement on 80% or 90% that we love Israel, that it's a question of how we love Israel. So Rabbi Timoner basically in her sermon said, you know, the brain, the what's the part of the brain, the amygdala or whatever it is, it it can't be free, tell me that's it. Josh Weinberg: doing. Orly Erez Likhovski: Amigdala. Amigdala. Yeah. Rabbi Jonah Pesner: This is like we go crazy. So one thing is to calm down and be thoughtful because what the algorithms do, and it plays into someone's interest. When someone posts or tweets or says they they're an APAC candidate or they take money, they're trying to get a reaction. And we call balls and strikes. So when a candidate calls those who support APAC or APAC, the people behind APAC monsters, we publicly say, That is an act of anti-Semitism because, in essence, what you're doing, you're amplifying a trope, you're demonizing Jews with money and power and calling them monsters. But we also reach out to the individual or the candidate and try and call them in and have a dialogue. We work really hard behind the scenes to meet with elected officials and candidates on both sides of the aisle, people who sit at a lot of extremes. And invite conversation to help humanize and help them understand why the language, the posting, the tweeting is damaging and hateful. And what people never see, we only see the the outliers, the awful tweets, the hateful posts that's in somebody's interest because they're trying to get somebody elected or trying to rile up some constituency. 99 times out of a hundred, there's thoughtful dialogue behind the scenes where They may not agree on our position on Israel. They may not support, for example, the right for Israel to have Iron Dome and protect itself, but we can at least have a dialogue and they can change their language, they can change their tropes, and they can be open and be willing to hear what the other side is and then stay in dialogue. I'm not being naive, by the way. People should vote their conscience and vote for if they want to vote for a candidate who says yes, they have a right to iron dome, no, they live and be well. You vote, but at least we're modeling a civil. society where people can actually have thought for a conversation and that gets sucked down into the false binaries of algorithms. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, no, one of the things that I wanted to ask you is really about, you know, we spoke about coalition building, about, you know, partnering with other people. And what do you feel about that? Now I know that after October 7th, relationship with some of your partners have become more strained. But nevertheless, there is a common cause that you can still, you know, organize around together. How do you see this now, the coalition building at this precise moment? Rabbi Jonah Pesner: Yeah, I mean, it's really hard. it's more difficult in my career. I've been at this over 30 years. It's never been more difficult. things I took for granted, I just take can't take for granted. And I want to say there's good news and there's hard news, right? The good news is the coalitions are largely intact, writ large. In most communities in North America, most communities, most rabbis, most congregations have good relationships with their interfaith multiracial partners. There are lots of exceptions. The Muslim Jewish local relationships have never been more strained. We have many, many stories of mosque synagogue relationships that ruptured after October 7th. And the rebuilding is slow and painful. And in some cases, those relationships are going to be a generation to repair. Writ large, though, if you look at both Temple Israel in Michigan or Beth Israel Congregation in Jackson, both of which were firebombed and attacked, many multi-faith. actors and elected officials and law enforcement showed up in coalition to stand in protection with those communities. In many cases, after October 7th, when our rabbis said, Why didn't people call me as they called me after Tree of Life? We had to really do a lot of educating around the difference between Tree of Life, which was so clear for local black pastors or local, you know, Latino Catholic priests about why that was a hateful attack of Jews, and October 7th, which was in Israel very far away. And in a context that's much more complicated for them. They don't understand all of it. And that when the rabbis actually reached out and said to the priest, to the pastor, to the minister, Do you understand what this means for my Jewish people? Often the answer was, You have to help me understand this and help my parish understand it. And thank you for calling me. And I didn't know what to do. So I think that's the hard news. The hard news is we have got to call in our partners more than ever because they don't know. So I was on a call yesterday. In a coalition where the covenant of this coalition was it doesn't work on Israel because it's so vile. We have members of the coalition who are very extreme on the Palestinian cause, and then a lot of Zionists who really are, you know, we I think I would say we're not extreme. We are extremely Zionists in that we love the two-state solution and we love Palestinian liberation. But be that as it may, there are Zionists in the coalition and there are people who are very focused on the Palestinians. So we agree to not talk about it and just work on things we share. Well, people kept saying, Why are we talking about Palestine? Why are we talking about Palestine? And the only people in the room that were actually saying, Because that's not the covenant we've made with each other, were the Jews. So we had to go to the leadership of the coalition and call them in and say, when you single out the Jews, and only the Jews say, because that's our covenant, that's anti-Semitism. We needed non-Jews, even if they disagreed. To say, because that's the commitment we made to each other. I needed a Christian or a Quaker or a Muslim to say, I may not agree with my Jewish family on this, but I I want to remind you that we made this agreement and we're going to stick with this agreement. and so, you know, you know, those who say, Well, I feel like you're silencing the the the Palestinian cause, and we have to say, Do you know that it silences z the Israeli cause or the Jewish cause? And they don't see it. That way. They see the Jews as, well, you have the power of the privilege and we have to but here's the good news. We did a call in. We didn't do a call out. We didn't do it publicly. They understood and then they're going to go through a teshuva process. They're not calling it that, but to like reteach the coalition what the covenant is that they made and why, and not have the Jews have to be the one to do that Shuva process. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, I think really great. Right. And I think especially Josh Weinberg: But you could only get to that process because you had the relationships. Yeah. Rabbi Jonah Pesner: 100%. actually, one of the problems is there's been some turnover. Some of the leadership and the coalition have moved on. There's newer people. So you have the work has to be done in it, but cold d'or bazar. It's like every generation has to redo the relationship building and the trust building. But what here's what I here's what we cannot do, Orley. Throw up our hands and say our abandoned our allies have abandoned us. Because then what are we going to do? Be an isolated minority and try and do this ourselves? Or just Orly Erez Likhovski: Not it. Rabbi Jonah Pesner: work with. Have a litmus test and say these are the good people and these are we're too small. You wanna have a friend, you better be a friend. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, and I think it's very much, it reminds me of what happens in Israel in interfaith work and especially work around shared society, which has become very challenging after October 7th, but because it's all challenging, it has become even more important. So it's really harder, of course, like you're saying, Jonah, we're not giving up, right? We're actually leaning in as much as possible. But we are getting to a close of our episode, which we could have continued to speak with you really forever, Jonah. It's really such a pleasure. But I want to conclude with asking you two questions. Well, first of all, what do you think, how we could best help each other in our fight for this common values of protecting our democracy on the basis of our Jewish values and whether you're hopeful. Rabbi Jonah Pesner: Wonderful. And I know we have I have limited time, so I'll just briefly say because I've been we've been talking so much about you know Jewish text and theology and ideas and some Taklis, but I'm gonna end with Takhlis on this question. Concretely, to my Israeli family, go on and see what we're doing and engage with it. Go look at this diaspora letter. Share it with your friends across the diaspora, share it with your Israeli friends and say, look at what our diaspora Jewish friends. Family is calling for us to do. Get on the RAC and the Arts mailing lists, follow Josh Weinberg, read his weekly email, which is a brilliant Zionist email written to Diaspora Jewry in English about what we care about in an analysis. Then you'll understand the voice of the American and North American and global Jews who are trying to fight for you and for the Israel to believe in. Engage with us, be part of it, come to our biennial. If you can travel to the United States in December and be part of the global Jewish family that we're building. And get involved in IMPJ and Iraq. In Israel, if you care about the American Jewish future and the Canadian Jewish future and the global Jewish future, get involved in Iraq. Because the more you get involved in Iraq, the more we can be proud of Israel and the more we'll be able to bring in our North American and our diaspora Jews. And to all of my Canadian and American Jews and global Jews who are listening, we have a lot of work to do. First, sign on the letter, get become part of this global Jewish movement to help Israel be its best self. If you're in the United States, get engaged in every voice, every vote. Rack.org slash EVEV. It's not complicated. Get involved in poll working, poll chaplaincy, election protection, postcarding, texting. It is urgent. Get on the list. For what we're gonna do after, because it's not gonna end on election day. We don't know what's gonna happen between election day and the inauguration of the new elected officials, the seating of those officials. Get engaged in protecting our democracy. And then what are the policies that we're gonna advocate and organize for in the in the context of this cop podcast, not just at home in the United States or in Canada, but in Israel. Congressional policies, state and local policies that will impact our Zionism and Israel. and so that's Taklas-wise. By the way, also I should also say, give, give, give. As generous as you have been, give more. Make sure you're a donor to Iraq, make sure you're a donor to the IMPJ, make sure you're a donor to Artsah, and make sure you're a donor to the RAC. We're all one family, but each one has its own purpose. And you have to be a donor to all of them and be a donor generously. And I know there hasn't been as much a culture of Josh Weinberg: Amen. Rabbi Jonah Pesner: Sadaka in Israel because it's like, the government funds all of our synagogues. Synagogues in Israel happen because you pay for them. In the United States and Canada, we give a ton of money to the reform congregations in Israel. We need our Israeli family to join them, advocate for the Israeli government to pay the salaries of rabbis and all the other work, and invest, invest, invest. And then finally, what gives me hope? This is what gives me hope. Every time I show up, I have others who love the work, who love this incredible vision, Hatikva, the Thousands year old Jewish promise to be our people, to live freely and flourish in our land. And I would add because I'm a Zionist in the steps of Ahad Haam and Rabbi Dick Hirsch, so that all people can flourish and live freely in their lands. And that's what gives me hope. Amen, V amen. Kenya Ratzon. Orly Erez Likhovski: Amen. Jonah, thank you so much. Really. Thank you for being with us. Thank you for everything you've been doing. Thank you for being an inspiration. And, you give us hope for a better future in both our countries. And conversations like these are exactly why we started this podcast. This podcast exists because we believe Israel can be better for all who live here and for all who care about it from afar. But that takes honest conversation and it takes partnership. So if these conversations are important to you, please share this episode and help us keep the conversation going. Josh Weinberg: And to stay up to date, subscribe to the Pluralist Podcast on YouTube or wherever you listen to podcasts. And if you'd like to help us grow, please make an engaging post on social media. Maybe something like, until I listened to the Pluralist Podcast, I didn't realize that democracy was such a deeply Jewish value and that even the prophet or the Midianite priest, Yeetro, created a diversified model of leadership that leads us now into the importance of building coalitions with people with whom we may disagree, but we can still sit together on specific issues. You don't have to use that verbatim, but... Make an engaging post and help share this podcast out widely. Send this episode to someone who should be part of this conversation. And of course, you can sponsor a podcast. It's a great way to acknowledge a birthday anniversary, the holiday of Sukkot and Israeli democracy and the American midterm elections. So we look forward to seeing you there and stay tuned for more on the Pluralist Podcast. Orly Erez Likhovski: Thank you. Bye bye. Rabbi Jonah Pesner: Love you guys.