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The Green Bay Packers: How a Small Town Built an NFL Dynasty (Part 1) · The Chuck ToddCast

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Hello there, I'm Chuck Todd.
• 0:01
  Speaker 2: And I'm J.A. Adande.
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: And welcome to another episode of Dynastic. J.A., it's football season,
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: so that means Dynastic's in football season, right?
• 0:11
  Speaker 2: Full football mode, absolutely.
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: Look, there are certain words in sports where sometimes you
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: just say one thing and it evokes it all. Yankees, Celtics, Lakers,
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: Notre Dame, Alabama. I don't have to tell you Alabama
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: means college football because you watched the last couple of
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: episodes of dynastic, of course. Um, but in professional sports,
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: there are two words that immediately conjure up almost the
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: entire history of that sport. Green Bay Lambeau field, the
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: green and gold Vince Lombardi, Bart star, Brett Favre, Aaron Rogers,
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: 13 championships, the Packers and the NFL. Essentially they're, they
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: grow up together. Now, full disclosure, that's why I'm wearing
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: a shirt. I am hopelessly biased when it comes to
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: the Packers. I am a Packers fan. I am a stockholder.
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: I own Packers stock. My son and daughter each own
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: Packers stock.
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: I think I own.
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: Two shares, but I don't think that matters that I've
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: got two rather than one.
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: Well, maybe it doubles the amount of bias that you have,
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: but no, it doesn't mean that you're influential when it
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: comes to the packers right you don't know what's.
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: Going on exactly i guess i guess it's just bragging
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: rights right and i just get an extra bragging right
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: but the weird thing for me and about me and
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: people always bring this up to me is that i
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: didn't grow up in wisconsin i grew up in miami
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: uh but it was my father he grew up in
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: iowa and uh apologies to you ja but basically his
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: football philosophy and growing up in iowa was you just
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: rooted against chicago They were the big city to the
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: small-town Iowa boy that my father's was. And, of course,
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: the Packers were great when my dad was at exactly
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: the age when a sport can get permanently embedded in you.
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: He was a teenager when the Lombardi Packers were his Packers.
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: So he handed this fandom down to me, and I've
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: handed the fandom down to my kids. The first chapter
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: book I ever read, Instant Replay. the first chapter book
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: I made my son read, um, was instant replay. Um,
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: but the interesting thing about my time as a Packers
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: fan is that, uh, I only finally made it to
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: Lambeau field in 2022, 50 years old. And I had
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: a lot of people, including, uh, our friend, Peter King, um,
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: sports illustrated, et cetera, used to say, you're not a
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: real Packers fan until you've been to Lambeau. So, um,
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: My son really wanted to go to Lambeau. He did
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: not get a traditional bar mitzvah party or anything like
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: that because he had his coming-of-age ceremony during COVID. So
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: the big gift was a trip to Lambeau in 2022.
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: And by the way, you'll love this, J.A., my son insisted,
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: insisted that we go to a game in December or January.
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: He did not want to cop out and go to
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: a September game. So December... 19th, 2022, a Monday night.
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: ESPN was the telecaster because we ran into Adam Schechner
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: in our hotel room. Not our hotel room, in our hotel.
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: And it was cold, 15 degrees. It was, the wind
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: chill was seven degrees. So it was the frozen tundra.
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: I got to see the frozen tundra. But as we learned, J.A.,
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: about frozen tundra.
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I remember. I mean, I'm surprised it took us
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: that long to utter that phrase, but have to call
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: a little bit of a timeout here. And yes, those
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: words have been come to be associated with Lambeau Field.
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: You can't say Lambeau Field without thinking frozen tundra. I'm
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: glad it actually was frozen when you were there. So
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: you did have a little effect.
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: It was. We even walked on the field and it
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: is harder. I'm sorry. Like at 15 degrees, it, you know,
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: we might've been in sneakers, but it did feel like
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: I was walking on concrete.
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: What? we need a little correction here or, or we
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: need to state for the record, John Facenda, the legendary
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: voice of God, the narrator for NFL films, never said
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: frozen tundra in reference to Lambeau field. He did say it,
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: but he was actually talking about the frozen tundra of
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: Cleveland's municipal stadium, not Lambeau field. It's come to be
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: associated with Lambeau because Chris Berman in doing the highlights
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: in evoking Lambeau, John Pasenda, as he was wont to do,
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: repeatedly would reference the frozen tundra of Lambeau Field. So
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: what he was doing was combining something that Pasenda said,
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: applying it to Lambeau Field, and now it's just sort
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: of etched in everyone's minds. But a lot of times,
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: what we do is actually the impression, not the original.
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: Just like we referenced Pete Jackson last time, right? So his...
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: phrase that's associated with him is, whoa, Nelly. He never
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: said it. As he once told me, my mule's name
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: was Pearl. I don't get this whole whoa, Nelly thing.
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: And as it turns out, you can trace it to
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: Roy Firestone, who used to do a Keith Jackson imitation,
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: would say, whoa, Nelly. And sometimes the imitation becomes associated
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: with the original, even if the original never said it.
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: When it comes to the Packers though, and I just,
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: I love this and it's still going to be frozen
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: tundra to me, although we could even get into the whole,
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: how do you define the definition of tundra? But we'll
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: save that for science class. But as we were discussing,
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: figuring out, okay, how are we, what makes the Packers,
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: we know what makes them dynastic. They have plenty of
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: championships to prove why they're dynastic. But the Packers are
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: something different. And it isn't the 13 championships that make
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: them dynastic. I think in what you're going to learn
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: throughout this deep dive, what makes the Green Bay Packers
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: unique is the Green Bay Packers themselves. Because when you
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: look at professional sports in 2026, these franchises have become
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: trophies for the ultra rich, the super billionaires. They're worth
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: billions and billions of dollars now. Stadiums are surrounded by
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: hotels and restaurants and condominiums and shopping districts. And private
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: equity is suddenly a big part of sports ownership. And
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: sitting in a city of roughly 100,000 people in northeastern
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: Wisconsin is arguably the foundational franchise of America's most successful
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: professional sports league. And they don't have an owner. And
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: it's certainly not in the way we think of one.
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: It has shareholders. but it's not shareholders like private equity
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: may think about shareholders. It has half a million of
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: them and none of us, right? I have two shares.
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: My kids have a share each. We don't get dividends.
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: We don't get free tickets. We can't flip the stock
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: when the Packers valuation goes up. I mean, my word,
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: it might be $ 15 billion. I could like to figure
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: out what my share could be worth. We're not sitting
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: on an investment. And here's the part I think is
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: most important. You couldn't create another Green Bay Packers if
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: you wanted to today because the NFL doesn't permit and
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: won't permit another franchise to use the ownership model that
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: the Packers have. Green Bay survives as the great grandfathered exception.
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: So every sport has dynasties, but this one, J.A., is
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: something else. This is a dynasty whose very existence is
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: impossible to replicate if you wanted to.
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: That definitely makes them unique. But I think what made
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: them popular and beloved far beyond the state of Wisconsin
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: is this unique confluence. And that is the fact that
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: you had this small Midwestern town and team based there.
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: But you also get the benefit of the New York
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: media spotlight, which is as the Packers were coming to
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: their peak and as the league, the NFL, was coming
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: to its peak and ascending in the 1960s, that New
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: York spotlight still mattered. It still was the media mecca,
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: and Madison Avenue was still where we came to think
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: of things and which generated the ideas and embedded things
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: in the culture. And because Vince Lombardi came from New
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: York and was beloved by the New York media, they
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: would all make the trek out to Green Bay. It
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: wasn't easy. You know, you usually had to connect somewhere,
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: but the likes of Dick Schaap and Red Smith would
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: come out to Green Bay and popularize. So you had
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: a Midwestern team that was beloved by New York that
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: had that boost, that amplification from the New York media.
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: You know, it's funny, when we were putting this together,
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: that was, you brought this up and it was an
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: aha moment for me and it made me think, huh,
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: if Vince Lombardi is from.
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: Tuscaloosa. Are the Green Bay Packers still a franchise in
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: today's mind? Do they survive? Are they forced to move
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: to Milwaukee? Do they never have the success that they
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: should have? It's a fascinating sliding doors in the importance
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: of Lombardi's New York roots, creating extra interest of the
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: New York sports writer community, which, as we learned even
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: in the Alabama episode, had had a lion's share.
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: Of impact on what... Outsized influence.
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: Outsized influence on what folks thought of different sports, different franchises.
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: and different coaches. It's, boy, it is, you know, I
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: would love to bring my father back to life and
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: tell him, you know, my partner in this thinks if
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: it wasn't for New York City, there'd be no Green
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: Bay Packers. He was one of these Midwesters that, those
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: New Yorkers think they're better than us, you know? But
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: I think you're right.
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: You know?
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: It's fascinating. Do you accept the premise that they're a
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: unicorn dynasty?
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: Absolutely. They're unique, but they're essential to the NFL. It's funny.
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: It's not just like it's a nice story. They are foundational.
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: Their existence predates the history of the NFL. I think
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: they were founded two or three years before the NFL
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: or its forerunner even came into being, but they represent,
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: they epitomize what the NFL wants to be in that
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: everyone has a shot and, and it's the ultimate validation
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: and testimony to the Pete Roselle model, which was that
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: we're going to share the national television money. And that's
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: what enables the green Bay Packers to stand toe to
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: toe with the Dallas Cowboys or the New York giants,
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: or you, you name it, all these teams in much
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: larger markets, the Packers are the equivalent of them because
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: the way the NFL is set up and they they're,
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: They provide even a unique insight into the NFL because
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: they're publicly owned. We get to see the financial documents, right?
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: And so they provide a window into the NFL.
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: We're a country, and frankly, we're a species that loves
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: our mythology. And boy, does Green Bay. Essentially, they're all
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: over the mythology that's the NFL. But to understand how
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: all this happened, we actually have to go back to
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: a guy getting lost. tonsillitis but before we get to
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: that a reminder to follow us on social media dynastic
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: pod and to follow like and review us wherever you
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: listen to your podcasts on our youtube channel so with
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: that ja you want to open up the trophy case
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: before we explain how tonsillitis and uh became a foundational
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: uh a foundational virus in order to launch the green
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: bay packers.
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: Well, you know it's going to be a big trophy
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: case because we're talking about Titletown, USA. And as you
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: mentioned earlier, the Packers have won 13 NFL championships. That's
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: the most of any NFL franchise. Three by finishing first
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: in the standings. Here's how far back they go, right?
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: So they've won basically every type of NFL championship, right?
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: So before the playoff era, they just finished first in
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: the standings, 1929, 30, and 31. Ten since the playoffs began. 1936, 39, 44, 61,
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: and 62, and 65. And then they win the first
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: two championships of the Super Bowl era in 66 and 67,
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: and then win two more in 1996 and 2010. So
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: every type of trophy, every type of way that you
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: can win a championship, the Packers have done it. And
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: that includes twice a three-peat. They won three straight in 1929, 30, 31.
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: And then three straight in 65, 66, and 66.
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: No other franchise has three-peated in football yet.
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: Have they? No. And they've done it twice. And they
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: did it twice. Yeah. Certainly it hasn't happened in the
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: Super Bowl there. And it's funny. They did it, not
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: three straight Super Bowls, but three straight champions, the last
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: two which were Super Bowls. 819 victories. That's the most
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: in NFL history. They've appeared in an NFL leading 38
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: playoff games since 1960. only fifth in playoff wins. The
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: Patriots really came on strong. That's a little bit misleading
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: because we've had expanded playoff rounds, right? You used to
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: not have a wild card. The Patriots got it right. Yeah,
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: so a little bit misleading, but obviously the Patriots have
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: been the modern dynasty, but they get to play more
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: playoff games. The Packers have the highest winning percentage against
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: the Chargers, actually, and the AFC team is kind of interesting.
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: Winning percentage of 846th. Lois is against the Jets. Jets fans,
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: this is as close as you're going to come to dynastic, right?
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: We're not going to do a dynastic episode on Jets. J-E-T-S, Jets.
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: They're not qualified. Here's the irony.
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: We're recording J-A. We're recording J-A on the week that
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: the Packers are scheduled to play the Jets. So by
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: the time you hear this, we'll find out if that
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: winning percentage improved or not.
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: But right now, the Packers have a lowly 357 winning
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: percentage against the Jets. Welcome to Dynastic. There it is.
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: Maybe one other time they'll get mentioned here. Look, 29
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: Packers have been enshrined in the NFL Hall of Fame.
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: That is second only to the Bears with 32. There
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: are seven other players who played briefly for Green Bay
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: who are also in the hall. Think people like Julius Peppers,
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: Ted Hendricks. Hey, as a University of Miami player, I
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: was glad to know Ted Hendricks spent a cup of
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: coffee with my Packers. Brett Favre played in an NFL
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: record 297 consecutive regular season games. 253 of them were
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: for the Packers. And for his career, Aaron Rodgers has
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: the best touchdown to interception ratio in NFL history. It's
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: 4.34 to 1. His ratio during his 18 seasons with
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: the Packers was even better than that at 4.52 to one.
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: The Packers have played in three of the five games
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: with the coldest temperatures. And apparently me going to a
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: game at 15 degrees didn't qualify for the top five.
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: The coldest, of course. Yeah, balmy.
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: I was, yeah, we were just, you know, it was
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: a sweatshirt weather.
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: Might as well have been in Miami.
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: The coldest, of course, was the infamous ice bowl. the
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: 1967 NFC Championship game at Lambeau, at which the game
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: time temp was minus 13, not a wind chill. That
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: was the actual temp, minus 13. The other two were
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: the 2008 NFC Championship game against the Giants in Green Bay,
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: at which the temperature kickoff was minus four degrees. And
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: the Packers lost that game, by the way. And a
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: 1972 game versus the Vikings, which was the coldest regular
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: season game on record at zero degrees Fahrenheit. That game
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: was played at the old Metropolitan Stadium in Minneapolis. And J.A.,
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: I have never understood why the Vikings spent so much
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: time playing in a dome when they had this natural
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: potential advantage that Green Bay and Chicago love to have,
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: which is come on up and play us outside in December.
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: Well, they never would have had a Super Bowl come
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: to Minnesota, which has done a couple of times since
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: they put up their domes. And let's think about the fans, right?
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: But one thing I love, you know, they were back
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: outdoors for a while while they were building their new stadium,
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: currently U.S. Field. And they played at Minnesota's outdoor stadium.
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: And Bud Grant, the old Viking coach from their Super
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: Bowl days from the 70s, he showed up and same
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: old look, you know, like what we're wearing now. Yeah.
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: And just a T-shirt, or not a T-shirt, you know,
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: a polo shirt, short sleeve. And he Took it like,
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: you know, because he was a man. You know, that's
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: what men were men.
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: Look, I believe Bud Grant ice fished in shorts. I
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: don't know if it actually happened, but I'm going to
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: choose to believe that.
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: He's more of a man than me. I will just
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: straight up admit it. Bud Grant, you're twice the man
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: I ever would be because I would be so bundled
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: up in a parka and everything else and multiple thermal
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: layers if I had to be outside in that type
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: of weather. More records and trophy case. Now pertaining to
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: Lambeau Field, which has sold out every regular season game
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: since December 13th, 1960. It's the longest active sellout streak
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: in the NFL, spanning more than 360 consecutive games over
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: six decades. Their season ticket waiting list carries roughly 147,000 names.
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: So it's almost, Chuck, you said the population was 160,000?
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's about the population of the city itself of
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: Green Bay, yeah.
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: Only 100 to 200 new season ticket holders are added
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: a year. Renewal rate of over 99%, meaning you pretty
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: much have to wait for people to die to get
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: on the list. You're going to have to wait 30
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: to 60 years. So, you know, the only way to
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: have anyone in your family have a shot if you
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: don't have them is to put your newborn's name on
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: the list. Gerald Ford once turned down a $ 110 a
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: game Packers contract in 1935 to attend Yale Law School.
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: That's his lawsuit. board. Yeah. JFK personally extended Paul Hornung's
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: army furlough. So he could play in a 1961 title game.
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: I don't know how many, you know, we've had presidents
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: call the winning locker room after a game. Right. President
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: Nixon famously drew up a play, right. For, for Washington
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: one year in the Superbowl. But you know, to, to,
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: intervene on behalf of a player so that they could
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: play in the championship game.
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: I think that's... I think America's first Catholic president was
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: going to help out the guy that played for Notre Dame.
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: What do you think? And, you know, he and Lombardi
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: were really tight. And so Lombardi actually put in the call.
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: JFK had given him his name. He was like, here,
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: call me if you need anything. I think he was
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: doing a political event or giving a speech in Wisconsin.
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: He met Lombardi. Gave him his number, like the direct line.
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: And he was like, call me if you need anything.
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: It's like... I need my starting running back. So now, Chuck,
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: let's get back to the tonsillitis. Okay. it's the foundation.
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: Of the packers it is amazing ja that tonsillitis is
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: the uh is is part of the origin story of
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: the packers get us started.
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: Uh so curly lambo doesn't get sick around christmas of
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: 1918 There's a decent chance we're not even doing this episode.
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: So Lambeau was at Notre Dame, not just Notre Dame.
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: He's there with George Gipp and Nuke Rockne and all that.
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: Win one for the Gipper. Was Reagan there too?
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: No, no, no, no, no. I'm just kidding. That's Reagan? No.
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: The Notre Dame football machine is just starting to take shape, right?
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: Lambeau comes home to Green Bay for Christmas, gets a
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: severe case of tonsillitis, laid up for weeks. And by
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: the time he's healthy enough to go back to school,
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: Enough of the semester has passed that he says, you
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: know what, I'm just not going to go back.
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: It's amazing to me. I'm obsessed always with butterfly effects
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: in history and what ifs, sliding doors. Recover from tonsillitis
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: two weeks earlier. Maybe Curly Lambeau spends his life being
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: remembered as one of Newt Rockne's players. Maybe he ends
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: up replacing Newt Rockne as a head coach of Notre Dame.
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: Maybe there's no Frank Ley.
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: Who knows?
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: Instead, he goes to work for a company because he
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: needs a job. And it's the Indian Packing Company.
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: For about $ 250 a month. And in the summer of 1919,
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: Lambeau and George Calhoun, who's a sports writer at the
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: Green Bay Press-Gazette, started organizing a football team. The Indian
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: Packing Company supplies the equipment, the jerseys, the pads, the footballs.
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: In exchange, they want their name on the uniforms. Hence,
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: the Packers.
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: Well, yeah, which Curly didn't really like that name. I mean,
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: it is kind of a, I don't know.
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: You're just a Packers.
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: You know, I kind of, at the time, I bet
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: it didn't really roll off the tongue.
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: I'm a Packer. But it's the Milwaukee newspapers which really
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: helped make the name stick, as they did for a
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: number of nicknames in that time and in that era, right?
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: I love, by the way, Jay, I love, and I
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: think it's the, and we're not just, you know, if
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: we're both biased journalists here, but I love how influential
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: sports writers have been in essentially creating the mythology and
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: our nicknames and so many things. I mean, how often
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: it goes back to being a sports writer or what
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: we just said about the frozen tundra earlier, you know,
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: you may love us, you may hate us, but man, we,
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: you know, you.
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: Sports writers have had a lot of influence, right?
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: That's right.
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: That's right. Game and foundational. Here's something else to remember
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: about this period that we're calling this professional football history, but,
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: college football is football in America at this time, right?
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: Notre Dame is bigger than anything. Again, there really isn't
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: any pro football to speak of. So there's this strange
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: collection of towns and teams, Canton, Akron, Rock Island, Pottsville, Duluth, Portsmouth.
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: It's funny, as we record this in 2026, near the
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: start of the NFL season, the Chicago Bears just had,
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: you know, the first six touchdown rushing game in an
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: opener against Since he both like the rock Island independence,
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: which I said, sounds more like a newspaper name than
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: the name of a football team. Like all these teams
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: were mentioned as like the last time a team scored
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: six touchdowns in the open. Of course the Ford pass
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: wasn't really a part of the game, but it was
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: just a completely different sport back then. So back then
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: green Bay, it fits right in with these types of
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: towns and the size of these towns, right? They're not
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: talking about New York in LA.
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: Well, where else are you going to find football players too? But, Basically,
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: you know, back then, football was just something you did
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: after work and you and it was being played by
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: guys who, you know, young men who were working in
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: a factory or working. And so I think it's clear
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: that was another sort of how this, you know, these
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: a packing company decided, hey, let's let's have a football
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: game after work or something like that. It is funny
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: if you look backward and think, how did Green Bay
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: ever get an NFL franchise? Well, it's not quite the
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: right question in 1920. There are NFL teams in places
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: that are actually smaller than Green Bay. Green Bay was
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: actually a port city right there on the Great Lakes, right?
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: I think the better question, of course, is why did
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: Green Bay end up being the one that survived, right?
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: Not Duluth, not Rock Island, you know, not Pottsville, but
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: Green Bay.
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: How did that happen, J.A.? And that's what we'll tell
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: the story of. Well, Duluth the procedural steps were first.
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: They joined the American professional football association in 1921. Wasn't
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: yet officially the NFL. That name comes in 1922. No,
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: the entry fee would have cost 50 bucks.
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: I got some 50 bucks. So let's, let's just, I
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: guess it's about 500 bucks today.
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: Right. But I mean, you paid five times that right
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: for the, a share of the team, you know.
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: 250, but I was on the, it was the 2011. So,
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: Those were $ 250 a share. And so five X.
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: That was the launching cost for the entire franchise. And
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: they almost immediately get thrown out. They'd use college players
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: under assumed names, violating league rules.
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: Wait, are we talking about LSU and Lane Kiffin?
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: I'm confused here.
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: Oh, no, this is the reverse.
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: It's funny. This kind of comes up in Lombardi's college days, too.
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: Lambeau gets the franchise reinstated. And then they're nearly wiped
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: out financially. You know, rain would hurt the attendance. It
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: wasn't the hearty days we saw in the 1960s. What's
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: the stat on, like, the number of no-shows at the
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: Ice Bowl? It's like single digits or double digits, right?
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: But back then, yeah, people weren't... I mean, why would
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: you come out to see the Green Bay Packers at
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: that point? There was an insurance dispute. 1922, they're in
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: serious debt. But Lambeau's old high school teammate, Nate Abrams,
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: reads about the crisis and he loans the team... $ 3, 000.
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: And the Press-Gazette's Andrew Turnbull basically tells them, play the
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: game and we'll figure out where the money comes from later.
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: Man, it's funny with local media hurting so much now,
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: it's too bad the Green Bay Press-Gazette didn't keep their
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: stake in the NFL back then. Look, this is where
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: the story, though, stops being simply Curly Lambeau's football team,
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: because there was a group of local businessmen that got
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: involved as well. The group that eventually gets nicknamed the
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: Hungry And they decide the Packers have to belong to
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: the community. They have to belong to Green Bay. So
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: it's in 1923, they sell stock. And it's $ 5 a share,
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: which again, $ 5 is, you know, it ain't what $ 5
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: is today, that's for sure. But the brilliant part was,
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: and this is the thing that I never really appreciated
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: before doing this, isn't simply that they sold shares because
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: other communities did this too. tried versions of community ownership
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: for the same reasons Green Bay did. They needed to
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: raise some money. They were running in debt and they
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: needed some help from the community. The genius is what
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: Green Bay's founders did to the value of those shares.
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: They essentially made them financially worthless. And this is because
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: we were discussing this, like, well, why didn't other teams
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: try this? Well, Green Bay was the only one that said,
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: you can't profit off of these shares.
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the original corporate structure says if this thing is
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: eventually sold or dissolved, the shareholders don't divide the proceeds.
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: The remaining value would go to the Green Bay's Sullivan
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: Wallen American Legion post for a soldier's memorial. And the
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: beneficiary eventually changes to the Packers Foundation, but that principle
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: still survived.
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: So think about what they did, especially when I think
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: about all these crazy valuations now for sports franchises, right?
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: But what they did is they removed the incentive to sell.
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: And that's what they were worried about, right? They didn't
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: want a whole bunch of shareholders. And then suddenly the
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: team collapses for another reason, right? So if this team
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: someday becomes incredibly valuable, the shareholders don't get rich by
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: moving it to Milwaukee or Chicago or Los Angeles or wherever.
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: There is no extra payday down the road. So compare
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: that to a similar situation with Portsmouth, Ohio, because Portsmouth
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: had community shareholders as well. Eventually, though, those shareholders voted
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: to sell. They hadn't prevented the shareholders from being able
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: to sell. Well, the team, that team moved to Detroit,
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: and we now know them as the Detroit Lions today.
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: Pottsville's owner exhausts his own money trying to keep the
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: Maroons alive. They disappear. The NFL contracts dramatically in 1927
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: and starts shedding these smaller places, but still Green Bay survives.
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: And what's interesting is because back then you didn't even
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: have the you know the the value that the pride
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: that you could take in the packer right like by
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: the time you came along and bought your shares the
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: packers meant something that they that was a.
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: Right what were you buying you know it wasn't you
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: were gonna you you weren't framing your stock certificate right
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: right where today you're framing.
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah you know they hadn't done anything they hadn't won
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: anything but it was civic pride and and you know
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: which gets to the heart of the the title of
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: the the Lombardi profile that I read, the biography, when
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: pride still mattered. Well, it must have mattered then because
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: they're buying something that didn't even have any type of
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: boastful value. There was not even any nostalgic or nothing
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: about it. So the mythology becomes Green Bay survived because
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: Green Bay loved it. football more, but maybe you could
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: say it's just because they loved Green Bay more.
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: They loved their community more. I think that's the better answer.
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah. They survived because the people who structured the corporation
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: made selling it pointless.
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: Look, if you wanted the community to own it, you
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: couldn't let the community sell it.
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: I mean, that's basically it.
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: So then this really crazy thing happens. They survive long
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: enough that eventually the NFL changes its rules and essentially
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: says no other community gets to do this again. And
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: that's kind of what makes them now this unicorn. But
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: they still have to win football games, because if you
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: don't win football games, you're not going to make money.
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: And if you're not going to make money, then you
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: may have then then maybe the team just disappears. Curly
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: Lambeau has some ideas about how to do that.
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: All right.
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: So Lambeau's Packers. There's another theme that keeps coming up
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: throughout Packers history that we discovered. Important Packers teams aren't
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: just winning. They're participating in the evolution of how the
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: game itself gets played. And the first example of this, Jay,
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: comes directly from Curly's brief time playing for Newt Rockne's
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: Notre Dame Fighting Irish.
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: He was there long enough to pick up on the
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: Notre Dame box that's related to the single wing. The
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: four backs arranged behind a balanced line and essentially a box.
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: And the important thing for Lambeau was versatility. He wants
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: a back who can do everything, run, pass, catch, kick.
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: This isn't the modern quarterback-centric football just yet.
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: And it's another reminder of just how much college football
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: DNA is embedded in the Packers these days. You sometimes
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: feel like, pro trickles down, pro style trickles down to
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: college and high school. This is where college is still
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: trickling up. Curley literally brings Rockne's football style with him
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: to Green Bay. Later, of course, you'll get Paul Hornig,
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: Bart Starr from Alabama, Don Hudson from Alabama, Dan Devine
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: eventually leaving the Packers to go back to Notre Dame.
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: But Green Bay feels in some ways like the professional
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: franchise that most naturally inherits some of the tribalism of
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: college football, you know, Jay, I was thinking it's like
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: Green Bay is the perfect mosaic, you know, it's sort
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: of if pro football and college football, you know, converged,
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: Green Bay is the pro football team that emulates college
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: the most, right? If, you know, LSU these days is
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: the college football team that emulates the pros the most. Sorry,
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: I can't help with the Lane Kiffin punchlines.
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah. It's appropriate though. I remember Jim Harbaugh once said
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: when he was playing for the Bears that when you
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: go into green Bay, it feels like you're going into
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: like a big 10 town, you know, it's the size
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: of a college town and the Lambeau field is the
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: dominant structure in the town. Like it's the first thing
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: you notice.
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: It is more like Tuscaloosa or Oxford, Mississippi, or, you know,
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: when you go to these, these places or state college
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: in Pennsylvania, you know, in Pennsylvania with Penn state, isn't it?
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And, you know, for the Notre Dame fans who
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: thought we downplayed their history and sort of you know,
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: built up Alabama to the status above them in our
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: Alabama episode last time out.
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: I don't think we did that as much as you did,
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: but I'll let your guilty conscience there.
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: You know, we did do Alabama first. They were our
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: first college football program that we've done. So, well, here's
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: the chance back because the Irish lore is really embedded
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: in the Packers and in the Vince Lombardi story. You
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: start with the four horsemen, Granlin Rice's memorable lead to
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: the Notre Dame Army game. And for those, you know,
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: just a quick refresher. Outlined against a blue-gray October sky,
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: the four horsemen rode again. In dramatic lore, they're known
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: as famine, pestilence, destruction, and death. These are only aliases.
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: The real names are Stolderer, Miller, Crowley, and Layton. They
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: formed the crest of the South Bend Cyclone, which another
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: fighting army team was swept over the precipice at the
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: Polo Grounds this afternoon as 55,000 spectators peered down upon
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: the bewildering panorama. spread out upon the green blade below
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: and the most famous lead in sports writing history well
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: and a quick thing about what's interesting it's known as
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: the four horsemen story he actually uses that cyclone motif
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: a lot more throughout the story he never comes back
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: to this four horsemen again but he uses the cyclone
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: a lot and.
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: He gets into four horsemen is what sticks yeah it's
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: funny what.
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: Part because notre dame gets back and they you know
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: pose the guys on on the horses and And he
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: gets out famous. That photo becomes as famous as the lead.
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: But Crowley was Jim Crowley. And he went on to
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: become Lombardi's coach at Fordham. So there's this deep connection
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: to the mythology of Notre Dame that connects to Lombardi
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: and what becomes the mythology of the Packers.
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: Well, it's Lombardi to Lambeau. And sort of like if
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: you're doing your six degrees of separation, you basically have
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: one degree between Lambeau and Lombardi. And we're going to
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: get to the fact that Lombardi was no fan of Lambeau,
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: but we're not going to jump ahead too far.
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we'll stay here in 1929, the end of the
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: roaring 20s. And they go 12-0-1. They outscore their opponents 198-22.
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: And then they win again in 30 and again in 31.
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: There's that three-peat that we mentioned.
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the first one of those Packers three-peats wouldn't be
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: the last. And This is when you get names like
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: Johnny Blood McNally, Blood being his nickname, one of the
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: great characters in early NFL history. Obviously, nobody's going to
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: get the nickname of Blood in today's NFL because we
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: would actually worry about their injuries and take them off
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: the field. But Blood McNally was an interesting cat. Lambeau
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: once offered him $ 110 a game if he'd simply stop
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: drinking by Tuesday every week, right? If the games were
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: later in the week. Can you give me just like
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: a couple days of sobriety? And McNally's counteroffer essentially was, well,
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: I'll take the $ 100 and keep drinking through Wednesday. You know,
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: basically he was giving him a $ 10 discount. That's quite
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: the conditioning program, as.
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: You might say. Then in 1935 comes Don Hudson, and
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: the Packers listeners may remember him from our Alabama episode.
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: One of the stars of the great Alabama team.
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: Well, I love the fact that the other side, the
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: other end on that team was a guy named Paul Bryant.
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: I guess Bear Bryant didn't get signed by the Packers.
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: Only Don Hudson did. But there's, you know, take that,
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: Notre Dame. There's another Alabama connection for you with the Packers.
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: So Hudson decides, signs contract with the Green Bay Packers
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: and the Brooklyn Dodgers, the NFL Brooklyn Dodgers or the
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: pro football Brooklyn Dodgers. And the league has to decide
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: which one counts in Green Bay's contract. reaches the league
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: first by 17 minutes. They had sent it, not express mail,
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: but like.
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: Hand delivery or special delivery, yeah.
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, special delivery, I think is what it was. You know,
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: the good old special delivery, you know, like you've seen
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: in the movie, special delivery. But that got it done,
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: 17 minutes. I wonder how much more it cost for
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: that 17 minutes, but it was worth it.
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: I was just going to say, it surely was worth it.
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: 17 minutes between people wondering, having to look up which
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: franchise did the Brooklyn Dodgers become in the NFL? Instead,
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: it was still the green Bay Packers. It was Don Hudson.
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: And what does Hudson do? Hudson basically invents the modern
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: wide receiver position. He invented routes that to this day,
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: receivers still do separation downfield passing. He retires with 99
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: receiving touchdowns and a pile of NFL records. And you know,
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: what's amazing about Hudson's records, J is, I think it
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: was only recently that his last few got broken. Most
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: NFL records, like the passing records, they get broken just
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: because the style of game changed. It was always amazing
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: to me how long Hudson's record stuck. Hudson was the
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: one football player who had records stick as long as
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: baseball players have records stick.
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: They used to have a page in the NFL record
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: book that just said, records held by Don Hudson. And
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: the heading was records held by Don Hudson. And you
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: get your old page for this episode. It kind of
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: made me realize, like, I think I did him a
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: disservice by not having him on my Mount Rushmore in
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: the Alabama episodes. I'm going to retroactively put them on
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: my Alabama Mount Rushmore. Oh, interesting.
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: Well, but in fairness, I mean, like, you know, did
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: he create Alabama? I mean, you know, not to get
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: us off on a tangent, but, I think it's fair.
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: I think when you're just talking on the field, you're right.
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: We were in fairness to our Mount Rushmore debates. It's about,
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: you know, who helped create the mystique, right?
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: Right. And, and, and what they did beyond the field,
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: you know, so I had Ozzie Newsome on there because,
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: you know, he, not only his Hall of Fame tight end,
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: but also, you know, a great executive too. But man,
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: it's just, I don't know if his playing career stacks up.
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: No, the Hudson, like on the field, there's, Yeah, I mean,
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: you know, you're going to eventually not to belabor, you know,
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: we're going to have Derrick Henry and Don Hudson are
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: going to be in a category of their own on
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: Alabama history, I think.
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: So we mentioned that Lambeau had offered Gerald Ford $ 110
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: a game and he turned him down.
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: But Gerald Ford decides to go to law school. He
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: was an All-American at Michigan. I guess he assumes the presidency,
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: but when you think about the presidency, he ended up
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: having to inherit.
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: Don't you think he wished he was a Green Bay
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: Packer instead?
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: Financially, probably, you know, given what the players were making
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: back then, probably the right decision. But yeah, that might
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: be for a different podcast of yours discussing the- No,
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: it is.
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: I may or may not have done a whole a
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: whole thing on the anniversary of the Nixon pardon. But again,
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: that's another, that's another podcast and another episode. Look, here's
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: one of the things in, when we were researching the
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: early days of the Packers that I learned doing this
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: episode that generally changed how I think a bit about
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: Packers history. You know, it's funny what you think, you know,
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: and then you go back and redo this and you realize, boy,
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: did I miss this as a fan? George Hallis, the Bears,
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: they're the enemy. Bears, Packers, the rivalry off the field.
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: What's amazing in this story of the Packers is how
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: often George Hallis, Mr. Chicago Bear, repeatedly helps keep the
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: Green Bay Packers as a franchise alive. I wonder how
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: Bears fans feel about that, Jay.
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he loaned them money. He would defend Green Bay's
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: place in the league against the owners who, when they
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: did start to question, hey, what do we need this
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: small town here for, you know, He kept he wanted
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: him to be in Green Bay instead of leaving in
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: New York. He kept Lombardi in Green Bay when he
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: had opportunities to go back to the Giants, where he'd
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: been an assistant coach. David Marinus, who wrote the Lombardi biography,
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: his way of explaining it was, quote, he was loyal
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: not only to his team, but also to his league.
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: And to him, the strength of the NFL was its durability,
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: symbolized by the rivalry between his Bears and the Packers.
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: So he was thinking about the sake of the league. And,
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: and his team, you know, it would better for his
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: team if the Packers were right up the road in
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: green Bay and they were viable rival to the Packers.
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: Well, look, and this is a quick reminder. It's like,
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: when you hear this, it's like this rivalry between the
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: Packers and the bears, right. You know, look, growing up
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: when I grew up, the Packers bear rivalry didn't have
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: the same mystique that I think it did have in
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: the fifties and sixties.
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: You know, you wanted to see Ditka and Ray Nitschke
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: go at each other, right? Like that's Bears-Packers. I didn't
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: get the joy of watching that and didn't feel this rivalry,
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: but you found a couple of incredible stories just of
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: how petty this rivalry could be.
• 41:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so, you know, I don't have a stake in this.
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: You know, yes, I've lived in Chicago, I don't know,
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: 16 years of my life at this point. But, you know,
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: I was not a Bears fan before. But I certainly
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: got introduced and got brought up to speed very quickly
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: on it. One thing was, you know, when I got
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: there and I'd cover Bears games, I looked at the
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: media guide. I noticed that they had an asterisk by
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: a game in 1994 that became known as the instant
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: replay game. That's what the asterisk said. So in 94,
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: there's a game at Lambeau. Don Muszkowski, the Packers quarterback.
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: Magic man, baby. Magic with a J. There's a touchdown
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: pass to to Sterling Sharp, and he gets called for
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: being past the line of scrimmage. And then they go
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: to replay, and replay overturns the call. And it was
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: hugely contentious because they weren't sure that they had, you know,
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: clear and convincing evidence or whatever the standard was. But
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: they overturned the call. This, of course, delighted Packers fans.
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: They would come out with T-shirts that said, after further review,
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: the Bears still suck. You know, drawing on the cadence
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: of those replay notes. I've got to get me one
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: of those shirts. Exactly. You know, but for over a
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: decade in the Bears media guide, at the insistence of
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: Mike Ditka, there was an asterisk next to that. And
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: it noted that this was the instant replay game. So,
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: you know, in 1999, after Walter Payton died, I went
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: and covered the memorial service for him that was held
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: in Soldier Field. And as it was ending and all
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: the players and the Bears dignitaries were walking out of
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: the stadium, You know, they were playing the Packers that week.
• 43:41
  Speaker 2: And so the fans all started chanting, beat Green Bay,
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: beat Green Bay. This is at a memorial service. And
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: you've heard a lot of Packers suck chants coming up.
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: It's become the in-vote thing to do in Chicago. It
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: doesn't matter if it's a Bears game. It can be
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: at a Cubs game, right? It can be at a
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: White Sox game. A Cubs game or White Sox game
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: or anywhere. Like this is Chicago is obsessed with beating
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: the Packers. And I think that's healthy.
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: And now you understand why you're like, wait a minute,
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: George Hallis has saved the Green Bay Packers how many times? Well,
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: he kept bailing out the franchise how many times? Now,
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: and Hallis would also be a bit of a, you know,
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: had to play bad cop every once in a while
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: to make sure the Packers did their part to keep
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: the NFL from chasing them out.
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: So meanwhile, as this rivalry is going, Lambeau is becoming
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: more powerful and more controversial. Um, you know, he's got
• 44:37
  Speaker 2: a private training facility before NFL teams really had things
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: like that, but he is increasingly clashing with the executive
• 44:43
  Speaker 2: committee of the league. Um, he fires people or the
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: executive committee of the Packers, I should say. So he's
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: firing people without consulting the board, uh, and the board
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: starts taking his authority away. And then in January, 1950
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: with the Rockwood lodge, which is their facility burns down
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: due to faulty wiring. And days later, Lambeau was gone
• 45:03
  Speaker 2: after 31 years and six championships out the door.
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: Look, it's understandable. He thought he behaved as if he
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: owned the team. I mean, that's essentially what was happening, right?
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: He was the coach and in many ways he was
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: the founder. And one would understand that, but it's almost
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: like anything. The way they set up the team, he
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: wasn't the owner and he was making decisions that the
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: board didn't like. And we found this brutal line from
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: a Packers board member We've had two good breaks in
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: Green Bay in the last two weeks. We lost Rockwood
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: Lodge and we lost Lambeau. I mean, it's just hard
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: to imagine anybody today in Green Bay disparaging Curly Lambeau,
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: but that is how unpopular he had become. The man
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: without whom there literally is no Green Bay Packers leaves
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: the Green Bay Packers amid this horrible bitterness. And then
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: I know the aha moment I had in my head
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: when I re-read this Curly Lambeau exit story, which was, huh,
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: an uncomfortable goodbye for a Packers legend. Where have I
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: read or heard or seen a story like that before?
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: Who knew that this was actually in the DNA of
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: the Green Bay Packers, J.A.
• 46:19
  Speaker 2: It unfortunately becomes a recurring motif, you might say. Is
• 46:23
  Speaker 2: it unfortunately?
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: We'll get to that at the end. Is it unfortunately
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: or is it a reminder of, Nobody's bigger than the franchise.
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: Right. Or, you know, a warning to stick around too long.
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: And you can wear out your welcome if possible. Or
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: you can certainly wear out your departure. So Lambeau leaves
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: at exactly the wrong time to be an unstable little
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: market franchise because pro sports is changing. You know, the
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: NBA has just been formed. Major League Baseball is beginning
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: its geographic expansion. Rams are already in Los Angeles. Television
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: is thriving. The big cities are mattering more. Bigger stadiums
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: mattering more. So we're in the 1950s and Green Bay
• 47:00
  Speaker 2: Stadium is increasingly inadequate.
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: Look, they're not stupid. They had already begun hedging this
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: problem going back to 1933 by playing some home games
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: in Milwaukee. And boy, anybody who remembers those Milwaukee County
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: Stadium games, it just, you know, nothing said demoralized home
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: game than realizing, oh, the Packers are not really at
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: home this week. They're playing in Milwaukee.
• 47:29
  Speaker 2: And you've got the infield dirt, right? You know, because
• 47:32
  Speaker 2: the multipurpose stadium that they shared with the Brewers. So
• 47:35
  Speaker 2: it was.
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: And it was, and you'd see the fans didn't feel
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: like there was on top of the stadium. I mean,
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: you know, it just, look, we all, those, you know,
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: the kickers obviously hated it the most with the baseball
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: dirt and the infield dirt, but it was, it was
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: a weird thing. It never felt like a home home game.
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: And it was, it was a home game, but it,
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: you know, it's not lost on me that, I feel
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: like that the more they played in Milwaukee, the more
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: mediocre they'd get at times. But economically, look, this was
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: a financial decision. Milwaukee is enormously important here because it
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: arguably probably kept the NFL from pushing them out of
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: Green Bay because at least they said, hey, look, we
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: got to, no, no, no, no. We have this market
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: that we can take advantage of too. So they have
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: this other larger market. And, you know, I have to say,
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: In hindsight, J.A., it's amazing that the Packers don't play
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: their home game. Would it shock you in hindsight if
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: the Packers were still the Green Bay Packers who played
• 48:38
  Speaker 1: their home games in Milwaukee full-time? In some ways, it's
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: amazing that isn't the way it works right now.
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because it became good enough. There's a baseball team there.
• 48:49
  Speaker 2: There's an NBA team there. And the NFL, the biggest
• 48:53
  Speaker 2: league of them all, stays up the road. In Green Bay. Yeah,
• 48:58
  Speaker 2: the more you think about it, it is pretty remarkable
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: that they never moved there. They never had to move there, yeah,
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: full time. So, on the field, meanwhile, things are pretty
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: awful in these times. Gene Ronzani has replaced Lambeau, his coach.
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: One thing he does give that's a nice addition that
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: he brings the green and gold colors which now it's
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: just you know it's unfathomable synonymous right when they.
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: When they wear the throwback jerseys and they wear the
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: blue and gold there's this great at the packers hall
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: of fame they have this terrific um and i'll share
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: these photos on social for people they have this terrific
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: sort of uh where every uniform, you know, every iteration
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: of the Packers uniform. And it is literally that it's
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: blue and gold, blue and gold, blue and gold. Then
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: it's green and gold, green and gold, green and gold.
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: But, you know, it's very similar.
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: By the way, it's very similar to another color scheme
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: we keep bringing up, which is Notre Dame's the same way.
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: They're blue and gold, blue and gold. Sometimes they're green
• 50:00
  Speaker 1: and gold. It's it's I don't think that was an accident.
• 50:04
  Speaker 2: I never thought about that. Yeah.
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: Notre Dame's colors and Packers colors had such similarities.
• 50:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So, yeah, those are the colors that we recognize
• 50:15
  Speaker 2: today that Packers integrate in 1950 with Bob Mann, their
• 50:19
  Speaker 2: first black player. And Lyle Blackburn comes in. And although
• 50:23
  Speaker 2: he doesn't win, the drafts underneath him are extraordinary. So
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: we get Jim Rango, Forrest Gregg, Bart Starr, Jim Taylor,
• 50:29
  Speaker 2: Jerry Kramer, Ray Nitschke. So the skeletons of Lombardi's dynasty
• 50:34
  Speaker 2: are quietly being assembled inside a losing franchise. The problem
• 50:38
  Speaker 2: is they can't get their coaches right until they make
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: the ultimate hire. Right.
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: But before Lombardi can inherit any of those guys, Green
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: Bay has to actually keep the franchise. And this is
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: where we come back to our friend, Mr.
• 50:51
  Speaker 2: Hallis.
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: George Hallis has to change roles. So yes, he's still
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: a Packers ally, but he's also now, instead of defending
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: the Packers to the league, he's going to the Packers
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: and saying, guys, look, This can't continue. Other cities have
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: bigger stadiums. Milwaukee County Stadium is sitting there. The commissioner
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: of the NFL at the time, Burt Bell, is warning
• 51:11
  Speaker 1: Green Bay that other cities want NFL teams. So in 1956,
• 51:17
  Speaker 1: Green Bay voters, the city of Green Bay voters, have
• 51:20
  Speaker 1: to decide whether they're going to finance a new stadium. Now,
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: if the fans of Dynastic already know, this is not
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: the first time. This is the beginning of how to...
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: taxpayers start getting involved with sports, with building sports franchises.
• 51:35
  Speaker 1: If you remember in our Dodgers episode, there was a
• 51:38
  Speaker 1: referendum in Los Angeles, the politics of building Dodger Stadium.
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: So this is the beginning.
• 51:44
  Speaker 2: And they didn't really get it done in Brooklyn, right?
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: Right, because they couldn't get it done in Brooklyn. They
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: could in LA. And this is starting to become a
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: part of modern professional sports at that time. If you
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: want the team, you, the taxpayers, need to build the building.
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: And Halas actually comes to Green Bay just before the vote,
• 52:01
  Speaker 2: and he reinforces the message. Hey, pass this thing, or
• 52:05
  Speaker 2: you could lose the Packers.
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: So it was a little gun to the head. And,
• 52:08
  Speaker 1: you know, I'm sure some of you are cynical today.
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: It's like, how many owners have said that? If you
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: don't do this, I'll move the team. Well, some owners
• 52:15
  Speaker 1: have built the team, right? Ask the fine residents of
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: the city of San Diego, right? Alex Spanos, the owner
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: of the Chargers, said, you don't vote for this? I'm leaving.
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: They didn't vote for it.
• 52:28
  Speaker 2: He left.
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: But Green Bay passes it. And New City Stadium, that's
• 52:33
  Speaker 1: what this was called. We'll get to when it gets
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: the name Lambeau. But New City Stadium opens in 1957.
• 52:40
  Speaker 1: By the way, it's a pretty big deal. The sitting
• 52:43
  Speaker 1: vice president, Richard Nixon, is there. Miss America shows up.
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: James Arness from Gunsmoke, which is the most popular television
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: show in America, is there. And the Packers beat the Bears,
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: which is, of course, the most important part. Great celebrations.
• 52:59
  Speaker 1: And yet one year later, they go 1-10-1, which is
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: actually the worst record, worst season in franchise history to
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: this day. Fans hang the team president in effigy because, remember,
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: there's no owner, so you blame the team president. Paul
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: Hornig later says that around the NFL, if a player misbehaved,
• 53:19
  Speaker 1: the threat was, we're going to send you to Green Bay.
• 53:23
  Speaker 1: That's sort of how Green Bay was portrayed. It was
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: the NFL's Siberia, J.A.
• 53:30
  Speaker 2: And the new stadium doesn't solve the fundamental problem, which
• 53:33
  Speaker 2: is they don't have the money to be competitive. So
• 53:37
  Speaker 2: before the pooled television rights, which comes in the 1960s,
• 53:41
  Speaker 2: teams largely control their own local television arrangements. So New
• 53:45
  Speaker 2: York franchise, you're in the middle of the media hub,
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: as we said, they can generate multiple times what Green
• 53:49
  Speaker 2: Bay can. The gate receipts matter a lot more back then.
• 53:53
  Speaker 2: And the market size matters a lot more back then.
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: You know, I was thinking about this. Baseball in some
• 53:59
  Speaker 1: ways today operates the way the NFL operated back then.
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: So the Packers are basically the Minnesota Twins in this scenario.
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: And the Bears and the Giants, being from the big cities,
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: are the Los Angeles Dodgers. And so maybe occasionally you
• 54:16
  Speaker 1: can moneyball your way into competitiveness, but over time, that
• 54:20
  Speaker 1: financial advantage just grows and grows and grows and structures.
• 54:24
  Speaker 1: So structurally, you know, it is... It is long-term impossible
• 54:29
  Speaker 1: to compete. Now, Green Bay solves the stadium problem, but
• 54:34
  Speaker 1: it has not solved the Green Bay problem. And then
• 54:38
  Speaker 1: it hires its fourth, or depending on how you count it,
• 54:41
  Speaker 1: third choice to be head coach. They wanted some bigger names,
• 54:46
  Speaker 1: but instead they end up with a 45-year-old assistant who
• 54:49
  Speaker 1: had spent years wondering why nobody else would give him
• 54:53
  Speaker 1: a head coaching job. Vince Lombardi. So today the name
• 54:58
  Speaker 1: means in itself means winning, but in January, 1959, he's
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: just simply an assistant coach. Who's never been a head
• 55:06
  Speaker 1: coach before. He's 45 years old and he's the son
• 55:09
  Speaker 1: of a Brooklyn butcher. He's deeply Catholic. He briefly had
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: studied to become a priest. Uh, his football playing days
• 55:17
  Speaker 1: were Fordham in New York. He coached high school football
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: while teaching chemistry, physics, and Latin. Uh, he worked for red, uh, Blake,
• 55:27
  Speaker 1: the Red Blake at Army. Then he joined the New
• 55:30
  Speaker 1: York Giants where he ran the offense with another young
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: assistant coach that you may have heard of named Tom
• 55:35
  Speaker 1: Landry who ran the defense. And he keeps getting passed
• 55:39
  Speaker 1: over for head coaching jobs over and over. And I'll
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: tell you, after a while, Lombardi, and this is, you
• 55:43
  Speaker 1: got to remember the time we lived in, Lombardi believes
• 55:47
  Speaker 1: it's anti-Italian prejudice that is part of the reason he's
• 55:51
  Speaker 1: not getting these job offers. But finally, Green Bay calls.
• 55:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the anti-Italian bias certainly was a thing back then.
• 56:03
  Speaker 2: And he just didn't look the part. And it's funny
• 56:06
  Speaker 2: because it took him so long to get hired. So basically,
• 56:10
  Speaker 2: he's a high school coach. And then it takes him
• 56:13
  Speaker 2: 13 years to become a head coach again. He's an
• 56:15
  Speaker 2: assistant in Army and he's an assistant with the Giants.
• 56:20
  Speaker 1: You said something the other day when we were doing
• 56:22
  Speaker 1: our planning call. You were saying, you know, Lombardi's problem
• 56:25
  Speaker 1: is he didn't look like what people thought a football
• 56:28
  Speaker 1: coach looked like. And I remember my brain was struggling
• 56:30
  Speaker 1: with that because today, if somebody is trying to portray
• 56:34
  Speaker 1: a football coach, they inevitably portray somebody looking like Vince Lombardi.
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: He becomes the archetype. Yeah. But then he was the
• 56:42
  Speaker 2: opposite back then. The archetype was a new Rockne who
• 56:44
  Speaker 2: was a Norwegian descent and square jaw. Right. Yeah. So,
• 56:49
  Speaker 2: you know, Rocky just wasn't, wasn't, um, you know, waspy enough. So, uh,
• 56:54
  Speaker 2: Red Blake is the head coach at Army. He once
• 56:57
  Speaker 2: speculated why it took Lombardi so long to get a job.
• 57:00
  Speaker 2: He said he doesn't look like a man of great intellect.
• 57:03
  Speaker 2: But what do appearances mean? And here's the way Lombardi
• 57:06
  Speaker 2: was described by David Marinus, a biographer. Quote, nothing flashy
• 57:11
  Speaker 2: about his looks, squat and sturdy build, gap tooth smile,
• 57:15
  Speaker 2: broad and fleshy nose, thick lens glasses, short, wavy, dark hair,
• 57:20
  Speaker 2: salted with whitish gray, always fresh from the barber's chair.
• 57:24
  Speaker 2: In dress, he was indistinguishable from the state farm agent
• 57:26
  Speaker 2: on Monroe Street or the cheese broker or the Bellin
• 57:29
  Speaker 2: building or the floor manager at H.C. Prange's department store. So, yeah,
• 57:33
  Speaker 2: just this very unremarkable man, you know, ethnic, you know,
• 57:39
  Speaker 2: certainly looked the part of his ethnicity. And yes, this
• 57:43
  Speaker 2: was holding him back. But it speaks to– and I
• 57:48
  Speaker 2: realize a kind of a theme to our episodes that
• 57:52
  Speaker 2: we've done, if you look back, a kind of a
• 57:53
  Speaker 2: common thread is the benefit of hiring the outsider, the
• 57:57
  Speaker 2: benefit of hiring someone that doesn't come up through your system,
• 58:00
  Speaker 2: that isn't beloved and associated with you. So we saw
• 58:03
  Speaker 2: it with Nick Saban at Alabama. We saw it when
• 58:06
  Speaker 2: Joe Lacob hires an agent, which then was unheard of,
• 58:11
  Speaker 2: to be his general manager with the Warriors. And, of course,
• 58:15
  Speaker 2: the ultimate outsider– when the Dodgers bring in Jackie Robinson. Yeah.
• 58:19
  Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting when talking about it, you know,
• 58:22
  Speaker 1: you know, my father had this New York chip on
• 58:24
  Speaker 1: his shoulder, a lot of Midwesterners do. So it's interesting
• 58:27
  Speaker 1: to me that it was a New Yorker, but in
• 58:28
  Speaker 1: some ways it was a New Yorker that had gotten rejected, right? The, the,
• 58:33
  Speaker 1: the New York elite didn't accept Lombardi, right? They didn't
• 58:36
  Speaker 1: promote Lombardi. So in some ways I think it, it,
• 58:40
  Speaker 1: it became a perfect marriage to the Midwest. You know, oh,
• 58:44
  Speaker 1: we're overlooked. And in some ways, he became the perfect
• 58:47
  Speaker 1: avatar for a leader of a football team smack dab
• 58:52
  Speaker 1: in the middle of the country.
• 58:53
  Speaker 2: Quick aside, the fact that, as you mentioned, Landry was
• 58:56
  Speaker 2: the defensive assistant coach and Lombardi was the main offensive
• 59:02
  Speaker 2: assistant coach. And they're both there through 1958. And then
• 59:09
  Speaker 2: Lombardi leaves first. I think. And then, or no, it's
• 59:12
  Speaker 2: Landry leaves first and then Lombardi. But then Jim Lee Howell,
• 59:17
  Speaker 2: the coach, announces he's going to leave after the 1960 season.
• 59:21
  Speaker 2: And so if he had left a year or two earlier,
• 59:23
  Speaker 2: you get, you know, you almost couldn't go wrong, right?
• 59:25
  Speaker 2: Either Landry or Lombardi, you know. literally two Super Bowls each,
• 59:28
  Speaker 2: more championships from Lombardi. But, you know, they each won
• 59:31
  Speaker 2: two Super Bowls for their franchises, five Super Bowl appearances,
• 59:34
  Speaker 2: I think it was, for Landry. And instead you get
• 59:37
  Speaker 2: neither because the guy left two years too late. And
• 59:41
  Speaker 2: then the Giants are kind of wandering in the wilderness
• 59:43
  Speaker 2: for another couple of decades.
• 59:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, it's funny, you know, Lombardi's time at one
• 59:50
  Speaker 1: of my favorite little bizarre anecdotes of the television, televising
• 59:55
  Speaker 1: of the first super bowl before they knew what to
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: call it is frank gifford keeps calling lombardi vinnie and
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 1: you're like vinnie and then you realize oh that's because
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 1: lombardi was his direct coach and that's obviously you know
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 1: by the time he comes to green bay nobody no
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 1: you know no way hornig's calling him vinnie but back
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 1: when you're just the assistant coach the star player frank
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 1: gifford probably can call you whatever he wanted to call.
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 2: You But anyway. It's an NFL city everybody thinks is
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 2: obsolete and nobody wants to go to and they hire
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 2: a coach that nobody wants to take a chance on.
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 2: But then Lombardi had to figure out his quarterback. So
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 2: he winds up with a guy that nobody thinks or
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 2: they're unsure if he belongs there, right? And it's easy
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 2: to forget because we know what Bart Starr becomes. He
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 2: goes to Alabama. He has some success early at Alabama,
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 2: but His college career pretty much falls apart. There's a
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 2: coaching change. The offense changes. Star barely plays his senior year.
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 2: Alabama goes 0-10. And here's another one of those dynastic
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 2: near misses we look at. Star leaves Alabama just before
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 2: Bear Bryant arrives. But he made up for it. Instead
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 2: of Bear Bryant, he eventually got Vince Lombardi, who was
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 2: reluctant at first, but then became a great parent.
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 1: Well, you know, the The legend of Starr, of course,
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 1: is that he was drafted in the 17th round. But
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 1: of course, there wasn't 32 teams in the NFL back then.
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 1: So what Starr was, was the 200th pick in the
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 1: 1956 NFL draft. So while that was round 17, but
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 1: think about this when you do the math. So he
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 1: was the 200th overall pick. So in today's 32-team draft,
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 1: that's basically being a six-round pick. And there's a pretty
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 1: reasonable modern comparison sitting right in front of us and
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 1: ahead of star. Now in the record books, Tom Brady,
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 1: Brady was 199th star was 200th. So different eras, completely
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 1: different drafts, but that's sort of, you know, the same
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 1: way the league didn't think much of Tom Brady. And
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 1: that's why he was a six round pick the league,
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 1: you know, thought enough of star that they draft them. And,
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 1: It was probably because, well, he played at Alabama, and
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 1: Alabama certainly had a history of having decent football players.
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 1: But it's probably the best way. It was sort of like, well,
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 1: maybe he's got talent. Maybe he doesn't. I don't know. Yeah,
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 1: let's try him.
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 2: Well, not too bad. It also shows you how little
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 2: evaluation of quarterbacks has been. But meanwhile, the draft has
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 2: become this primetime thing. Well, guess what? They still don't
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 2: know what they're doing, right? It's this whole elaborate showcase of, of, oh,
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 2: let's have the draft in primetime or do the first
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 2: round on one day. We'll do the second round the
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 2: next night. Well, you know what? Chances are, if you
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 2: want to see the next all-time great quarterback that's coming
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 2: down the pike, you're not even going to see him
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 2: on either of those first two nights. because these guys
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 2: don't know what to look for when they're looking for
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 2: a quarterback. But I digress. Vince Lombardi wasn't sold himself.
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 2: He wasn't even that high on the quarterback position. He
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 2: thought the biggest flaw with football and co-football in particular
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 2: was that it was too dependent on one position, on
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 2: the quarterback position. Well, he'd hate today's football. Yeah, but
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 2: he understood somewhat where the game was going. I mean,
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 2: he acknowledged that you had to have one, but he
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 2: didn't see it with Starr. But the discipline, the preparation
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 2: for Starr, that's kind of where they got aligned. And
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 2: Starr had been really disappointed with the previous coach that
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 2: they went 1-10 under because there was no discipline. And
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 2: literally from day one with Lombardi, he comes in and
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 2: he hears Lombardi's whole speech and spiel. And Lombardi says, OK,
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 2: we're going to win games with this guy. But would
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 2: he be the guy to do it? One thing that
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 2: that helped format their relationship was that, you know, Lombardi
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 2: just tore into him in front of everybody. The star
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 2: goes to him and says, hey, look, if you want
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 2: me to lead these guys, you can't be humiliating me
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 2: in front of them. Right. Like you can tell me privately,
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 2: say whatever you want to me privately, but just don't
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 2: do it in front of everything because then you're going
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 2: to undermine my ability to lead.
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 1: Well, you know, and it's interesting. It's like we have
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 1: to remember, you know, we think now you think Vince
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 1: Lombardi and he must have been a, he knew everything.
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 1: He understood men and he understood coaching and all this stuff.
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 1: But we have to remember he'd been a head coach
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 1: all of a year, right? He had barely been a
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 1: head coach. So he's still learning. And to Lombardi's credit,
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 1: he knew he was still learning. He listens to Star.
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 1: And I'm glad to know this, right? Because the cartoon
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 1: version is just, Lombardi yells at his players. The players
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 1: are scared and they're just don't want to disappoint the
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 1: coach and they're going to do the way they do.
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 1: But the fact of the matter is, and we learned this,
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 1: the more you learn about the truly great coaches, they actually,
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 1: the great coaches do listen to their players. The great
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 1: coaches figure out, oh, this isn't going to work for
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 1: that player and realize that, you know, interacting with human
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 1: beings is different depending on the human being you're you're
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 1: interacting with. Now, look, he doesn't stop coaching Starr hard,
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 1: but he does change how he does it in front
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 1: of other players. And that relationship then ends up, I mean,
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 1: this is the other thing that is a truism of
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 1: the NFL in 1960, and it's true of the NFL today.
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 1: Having a great coach quarterback relationship is the difference between
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 1: competing for Super Bowls and not.
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 2: Well, and it's interesting because Lombardi also you hear the
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 2: phrase love-hate relationship, but it was kind of different the
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 2: way Lombardi approached it. His whole thing is he wanted
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 2: the players to hate him. He said, hate me enough
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 2: to take it out on the opposition. He said, nothing
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 2: stokes fire like hate. So he didn't mind people hating him,
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 2: but in his case with Starr, he understood that he
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 2: couldn't hate Starr and he didn't want Starr to take
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 2: it out in front of him. But there's also... the
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 2: love that he tried to instill. And he's more multidimensional, again,
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 2: than the cartoon version of him that we see. And
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 2: so Bob Skowronski, who was an offensive lineman on that team,
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 2: and Chuck, you had your Miami reference. Here's my gratuitous
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 2: Northwestern reference here. Bob Skowronski's grandson, Peter, played offensive line
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 2: in Northwestern. It was really good. It wasn't just there
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 2: on the name. He actually was a first-round NFL draft
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 2: pick playing for the Titans now. But Skowronski told this
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 2: story about Lombardi– He began his speech by asking, what
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 2: is the meaning of love? And then Lombardi says, anybody
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 2: can love something that is beautiful or smart or agile.
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 2: You will never know love until you can love something
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 2: that isn't beautiful, isn't bright, isn't glamorous. It takes a
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 2: special person to love something unattractive, someone unknown. That is
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 2: the test of love. Everybody can love somebody's strengths and
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 2: somebody's good looks, but can you accept someone for his inabilities?
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 2: And so he was basically saying, you guys have to
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 2: love each other and play and fight for each other
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 2: no matter how you feel about each other, no matter
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 2: the flaws that are inherent about the guy next to you,
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 2: love each other. So you wouldn't think about a diatribe
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 2: about love or treaties on love coming from Lombardi, but
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 2: he said it, and it stuck with his players decades later. Ah,
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 2: there you go.
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 1: One fun little political footnote, because hey, it's me. I'm
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 1: going to do political footnotes here. This is a fun little,
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 1: we told you about Richard Nixon showing up to the
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 1: stadium opening in 1957. Well, Um, a few years later, uh, we,
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 1: we told you about how Lombardi was friendly with JFK
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 1: and that's how he was able to make sure Paul
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 1: Hornig was, was, was able to, was able to, uh,
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 1: play in the 61 championship game. But here was another
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 1: fun little nugget from our friend, David Baroness. He said,
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 1: when Nixon was putting together, when he's looking for a
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 1: running mate in 68, uh, and by the way, I'm
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 1: glad to know he was considering other people other than
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 1: Spiro Agnew. Um, there were some people around Nixon who
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 1: actually said, Hey, why don't, why don't we look into
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 1: Vince Lombardi as a possible running mate in 68? He
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 1: had just, he had actually just stopped coaching, right? He just,
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 1: he was at that point, just the GM of the Packers. And, uh, um, they, uh,
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 1: they did a little vetting on him and they discovered that, well,
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 1: Lombardi was a Kennedy Democrat.
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 2: So, and his wife was Republican. Yeah.
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 1: We don't have any Kennedy connection would make him crazy.
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 1: And he would have, he would have worried, uh, But
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 1: that cultural trajectory, right? Think about this. In 1959, this
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 1: 45-year-old assistant coach can't get a job as a head
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 1: coach anywhere because he thinks it's because of anti-Italian bias.
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 1: He finally gets a job in football Siberia. And less
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 1: than a decade later, a future president is wondering, should
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 1: we make Vince Lombardi our vice president? Who, of course,
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 1: instead of, by the way, talk about full circle. Instead
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 1: of Gerald Ford assuming the presidency, we could have had
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 1: Vince Lombardi assuming the presidency. in 76 but anyway I digress.
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 2: I thought about how close we came to that wow
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 2: so you know if you want to understand how again
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 2: this football coach in in this tiny town in the
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 2: midwest could become you know almost a heartbeat away from
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 2: the presidency uh you know, you really, it all comes
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 2: down to one play. And this play sort of epitomized
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 2: them and was their go-to play. And that's the power
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 2: sweep or the Packer sweep, as it can be known.
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 2: And if you think of Lombardi, and it's been referenced
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 2: so many times, you probably think of him standing at
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 2: the chalkboard, doing the X's and O's, the lines and
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 2: the arrows, you know, and he talks about, you know,
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 2: getting a seal here and a seal here. And then
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 2: you run right through that alley, right? I can't tell
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 2: you how many mornings I would watch the Edge NFL
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 2: matchup or the various iterations it took on ESPN. And
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 2: Merrill Hodge loved that talking about it's still here, and
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 2: it's still here, and in the alley. He's teaching the
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 2: Packers sweep.
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 1: You know, we know the way TV works, J.A. There's
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 1: one clip of that with Lombardi. It's just been used
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 1: so many times. It's become like a coach and a chalkboard.
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 1: And in my head, I think Lombardi and the Packers sweep,
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 1: you know?
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he was big, but he actually, it did reflect,
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 2: he was big on putting stuff on the chalkboard for
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 2: his players so that they could see it, making it
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 2: really simple. Part of this thing was simplification. So the
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 2: previous coach had like, you know, the playbook was four
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 2: times the size of Lombardi's playbook. You know, Lombardi would
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 2: rather have one play with 20 different variations and options
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 2: within the play than have 20 different plays. Right. And
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 2: so that was the thing with the power sweep was that, uh,
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 2: there were a lot of options within it, depending on,
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 2: you know, what type of blocking there was or how
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 2: the defenders reacted.
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 1: Let me, let me put, let's put a pin in
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 1: and I'm going to throw why I can't tell you
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 1: how often I hear, well, you know why this is
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 1: really working is the coach came in and simplified the
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 1: playbook or the coach came in and simplified the, you know, the,
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 1: the defensive scheme. Um, why do people come up with
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 1: complicated schemes? Like I never hear somebody say, well, you know,
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 1: they won the super bowl because they spent five years
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 1: learning a complicated scheme. It's funny to me how often,
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 1: and I don't know if this is how narratives work or,
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 1: or if this is just a way to paint the
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 1: previous coach is bad, you know, well, he had a
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 1: complicated playbook. So you're not being insulting, right? At least
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 1: you're saying they're intelligent, but I just, it's a recurring thing.
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 1: I feel like in, in sports writers trying to explain why,
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 1: Coach X is more successful than coach Y.
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 2: Well, we, we overcomplicate things. People want to be sophisticated
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 2: and they, you know, especially in today's day and age,
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 2: they want to have all this complexity to their offense. And,
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 2: you know, because now you're, you're dealing with people who
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 2: are financial people running these teams. Right. And, and what's
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 2: happened to our finances have gotten a lot more complicated, right?
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 2: You probably don't have the understanding of the simplicity of
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 2: the economy that you know, that he did maybe earlier. So,
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 2: you know, can you explain cryptocurrency, for example, and why
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 2: you should or should not invest in it, right? That's
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 2: kind of beyond our scope. So people have placed this
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 2: false importance on sophistication when simplicity really is. And it's
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 2: not like Lombardi was dumb. I mean, he was, you know,
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 2: he was- He taught Latin. Right. Okay. Like he taught Latin. Right.
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry, this was like one bright dude, right?
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, education was a huge, huge part. You know, went
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 2: to a Jesuit high school, all that stuff. So the
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 2: importance of education was something that mattered to him. But
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 2: he didn't want his football players, you know, out there
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 2: thinking about Pythagorean theorem or something like that while they're playing.
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 2: He wanted them thinking about, let me hit this guy.
• 1:12:56
  Speaker 2: You know, I love this guy next to me. I
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 2: hate that guy across from me. I hate my damn
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 2: coach Lombardi. And I'm going to play off these emotions
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 2: rather than the intellect. But that was the thing about
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 2: the power sweep. There was no big secret to it.
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 2: You knew it was coming. He wasn't going to try
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 2: to fool you. And, you know, the basic idea was
• 1:13:15
  Speaker 2: that the guards, you know, mostly famously Jerry Kramer and
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 2: Fuzzy Thurston, they'd pull out in front of the runner.
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 2: And it's probably not by accident that his signature play
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 2: featured the offensive lineman because he was an offensive lineman
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 2: himself at Fordham. So the tackle and the tight end
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 2: create the seal. And then the back follows those guards
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 2: toward the edge. But then it depends– You know, it's
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 2: what does the back see? And, you know, the run
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 2: to daylight becomes the important thing. Okay, where's the daylight?
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 2: And I'm going to run to the daylight. That actually
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 2: became the title of his autobiography at the suggestion of
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 2: his wife. You know, the runner isn't simply told just
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 2: hit this hole. The blocks determine where the opening develops
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 2: and the defender makes a choice. The blocker uses that
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 2: choice against them. And then the runner finds daylight.
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 1: What's amazing is that it is, It's rigid in the
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 1: play that he designs, but it's flexible at the same time,
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 1: which is the genius of any football play.
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 2: It's interesting because in the book, Marinus says he got
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 2: the idea from the Los Angeles Rams used to run it,
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 2: but in this video that I referenced, the famous thing,
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 2: there's one of the clips of him. He says he
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 2: got it from the Pittsburgh Steelers. So from our Steelers episode,
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 2: at a time when the Unfortunately, it didn't work that
• 1:14:31
  Speaker 2: well for the Steelers. It didn't work for the Steelers.
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 2: They were terrible then. Late 50s, early 60s. But they
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 2: did have this play that Lombardi liked and used it
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 2: to become a championship coach. But everybody has responsibility. Everybody
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 2: has to execute. But the play isn't really determined until
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 2: the defense reacts. And so Lombardi would drill this thing
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 2: relentlessly again and again and again. And like we said,
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 2: the opponents knew they were going to run it. Green
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 2: Bay knew their opponents knew it did not matter because
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 2: they believe they could execute it better than defenders can
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 2: defend it.
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 1: You know, and it's, it's arguably Lombardi's entire worldview reduced
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 1: into one football play, right? We're not going to trick you.
• 1:15:11
  Speaker 1: We're just going to prepare better than you. And we're
• 1:15:13
  Speaker 1: going to execute this better than you. We've got 11
• 1:15:16
  Speaker 1: guys that are going to do their jobs better than
• 1:15:18
  Speaker 1: your 11 guys. Uh, especially if someone finds the, the daylight,
• 1:15:23
  Speaker 1: as they say, um, And we need to remember this
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 1: discussion because when we get to the most famous play
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 1: in Packers history, another wedge play, by the way, and
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 1: everything these guys have practiced for years, well, guess what?
• 1:15:36
  Speaker 1: No matter how cold it is, if you've practiced it
• 1:15:39
  Speaker 1: a million times and you know the play like the
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 1: back of your hand, no amount of cold air is
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 1: going to scare you.
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 2: Although it amounted to a spur-of-the-moment decision by the quarterback, actually,
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 2: who went a little bit off script when we get
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 2: to that. Wait a minute. Wait, wait.
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 1: Are you giving away the ending of that play?
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 2: No, I'm just the process by which it was arrived at.
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 2: We all know how it came out. We might not
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 2: know what Bart Starr took into account when he switched
• 1:16:12
  Speaker 2: things up a little bit. A little bit of the
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 2: Lombardi ethos. This came from a speech that he gave.
• 1:16:18
  Speaker 2: Characters and integration of habits of conduct superimposed on temperament.
• 1:16:23
  Speaker 2: It is the will exercised on disposition, thought, emotion, and action.
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 2: Will is the character in action. The character rather than
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 2: education is man's greatest need, man's greatest safeguard, because character
• 1:16:34
  Speaker 2: is higher than intellect. And he believed character was something
• 1:16:37
  Speaker 2: that was developed through repetition, through discipline, and through repeated exercise.
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 1: I know we're going to go down a rabbit hole here,
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 1: but it's interesting to me about Lombardi. uh, about, uh,
• 1:16:52
  Speaker 1: Phil Jackson, uh, about is how the best coaches are philosophers.
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 1: It seems like, and they study because they're studying the
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 1: behavior of how men think and behavior of how people react. And,
• 1:17:07
  Speaker 1: you know, an assistant coach has to be an expert
• 1:17:10
  Speaker 1: at a specific thing. I'm going to teach a linebacker
• 1:17:12
  Speaker 1: how to be a linebacker, et cetera. But it is
• 1:17:15
  Speaker 1: sort of the understanding, like what, why do some great
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 1: football guys make terrible head coaches? They don't have the
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 1: education that gets somebody to say what you just quoted
• 1:17:27
  Speaker 1: Lombardi as saying about character.
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and Phil Jackson was someone who really sought out
• 1:17:34
  Speaker 2: inspiration through religion or through Native American traditions or all
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 2: these influences that went into his coaching philosophy. So you
• 1:17:44
  Speaker 2: talked about models or sayings, and I brought up ethos.
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 2: So let's get to this because there's a certain– um, phrase,
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 2: which is associated with, with Lombardi. Oh, we're going to
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 2: do this. Still here in a seal there. Yeah. But
• 1:17:59
  Speaker 2: what's amazing was reading the book, how long it took
• 1:18:02
  Speaker 2: to get to that. It literally comes two thirds. You know,
• 1:18:05
  Speaker 2: you could read it on the Kindle. It was two
• 1:18:07
  Speaker 2: thirds of the book before we got to it. Before
• 1:18:10
  Speaker 2: we get to it, we hear things like there is
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 2: no substitute for victory was something that he says. He
• 1:18:15
  Speaker 2: later said, everybody has ability, but pride and performance is
• 1:18:19
  Speaker 2: what makes a difference. How do you develop pride? Pride
• 1:18:22
  Speaker 2: is developed from a winning tradition. Another thing he said
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 2: is winning is not a sometime thing. It's an all
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 2: the time thing, which we're getting closer to what I
• 1:18:32
  Speaker 2: know you're thinking about, right? Another one was the American
• 1:18:36
  Speaker 2: zeal is to be first in what we do and
• 1:18:38
  Speaker 2: to win, to win, to win. The key phrase didn't
• 1:18:43
  Speaker 2: appear until actually coming off losing. After two years of
• 1:18:49
  Speaker 2: coming in second in 1965, Lombardi puts all these motivational
• 1:18:53
  Speaker 2: sayings all around the locker room. And here's the phrase,
• 1:18:57
  Speaker 2: which Marinus never quotes him actually saying it. I'm not
• 1:19:03
  Speaker 2: sure there's video of him saying it, but on something
• 1:19:07
  Speaker 2: that he had printed out and put up in the
• 1:19:09
  Speaker 2: locker room is the phrase. You want to go ahead
• 1:19:11
  Speaker 2: and say it, Chuck?
• 1:19:13
  Speaker 1: Winning isn't everything. It's the only thing, right?
• 1:19:15
  Speaker 2: It's the exact phrase. Yeah.
• 1:19:17
  Speaker 1: Which is, well, I learned, I will, I will tell
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 1: you how I learned who really said this story. So I,
• 1:19:25
  Speaker 1: the first piece I ever got to write for the Atlantic,
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 1: the magazine was a news analysis piece. And I used
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 1: as a, as a, a hook to start the piece.
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 1: You know, as Vince Lombardi once famously said, winning isn't everything.
• 1:19:38
  Speaker 2: It's the only thing.
• 1:19:39
  Speaker 1: And it was a piece about politics. Well, the fact
• 1:19:41
  Speaker 1: checkers call me up and they say, hey, we've got
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 1: a problem with your lead. Vince Lombardi never said that.
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 2: I went, wait, what? You know, this is. Yeah.
• 1:19:53
  Speaker 1: And she goes, the first person to say this was
• 1:19:56
  Speaker 1: a was a football coach and it was a football
• 1:19:58
  Speaker 1: coach from UCLA in the 30s. And the good news
• 1:20:04
  Speaker 1: was by the editor of the piece really wanted to
• 1:20:06
  Speaker 1: keep the thought that the phrase worked, like it was
• 1:20:10
  Speaker 1: going to like sort of screw up everything else of
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 1: the piece. And he says, we'll keep the phrase. And
• 1:20:14
  Speaker 1: we'll just say, as, as a football coach once said,
• 1:20:17
  Speaker 1: the reference gets changed, dude. So you want to look
• 1:20:21
  Speaker 1: up in your old Atlantic archives, you can see that,
• 1:20:23
  Speaker 1: but it was sort of my own personal history lesson.
• 1:20:26
  Speaker 1: It's a reminder. Don't assume, right. You always got to
• 1:20:29
  Speaker 1: look up and verify. And that was an early lesson
• 1:20:31
  Speaker 1: for a young journalist.
• 1:20:33
  Speaker 2: And it's real easy to think we've heard it associated
• 1:20:36
  Speaker 2: with him so many times. It's real easy to just
• 1:20:38
  Speaker 2: let it go. So that football coach, Red Sanders at UCLA,
• 1:20:43
  Speaker 2: his agent also represented a screenwriter named Melville Shavelson, who
• 1:20:48
  Speaker 2: used that in a movie script he wrote in which
• 1:20:52
  Speaker 2: John Wayne plays a Catholic college football coach and who
• 1:20:56
  Speaker 2: turns to illegal recruiting to and is sort of having
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 2: kind of a crisis of his ethics. Kind of like
• 1:21:03
  Speaker 2: Nick Nolte in Blue Chips, right? The plot sounds pretty similar, right?
• 1:21:06
  Speaker 2: Like he's down on his luck, and so he has
• 1:21:08
  Speaker 2: to bend some rules in the recruiting process. So at
• 1:21:12
  Speaker 2: some point, the question comes up, is winning so important?
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 2: And an 11-year-old girl character says, like Steve says, winning
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 2: isn't everything, it's the only thing. It also appeared in the,
• 1:21:27
  Speaker 2: that might've been where Lombardi got it from. Maybe he
• 1:21:30
  Speaker 2: saw this movie. I would imagine.
• 1:21:31
  Speaker 1: I love that he's quoting the idea that he's quoting
• 1:21:33
  Speaker 1: an 11 year old girl to get it, to motivate
• 1:21:35
  Speaker 1: his men.
• 1:21:37
  Speaker 2: It also appeared in the 61 Chargers yearbook. So there's
• 1:21:42
  Speaker 2: various ways that could have gotten to Lombardi, but it
• 1:21:44
  Speaker 2: didn't originate with Lombardi. Yeah.
• 1:21:46
  Speaker 1: He's like Winston Churchill. We sometimes assume that the, that
• 1:21:51
  Speaker 1: Churchill said certain things that, There's a whole website devoted
• 1:21:55
  Speaker 1: to things people think Churchill said, but he didn't. But
• 1:21:59
  Speaker 1: we digress.
• 1:22:00
  Speaker 2: So Lombardi has the back. So he really liked to
• 1:22:05
  Speaker 2: emphasize the back. And one of the reasons he was
• 1:22:08
  Speaker 2: so tight with Frank Gifford, that Gifford felt comfortable calling
• 1:22:13
  Speaker 2: him Vinny, was because he really emphasized Gifford as the
• 1:22:19
  Speaker 2: left halfback. It's funny, if you look at Paul Horning's position,
• 1:22:22
  Speaker 2: Pro football reference, it says LH, left halfback. That was
• 1:22:26
  Speaker 2: the key position in Lombardi's offense. And he had to
• 1:22:29
  Speaker 2: be versatile. Yeah, run, block, pass. In Hornick's case, he
• 1:22:34
  Speaker 2: even kicked field goals. But Taylor was the hammer. And
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 2: he had the low center of gravity, Jim Taylor. And
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 2: Horning was a little bit of everything, right? Notre Dame,
• 1:22:47
  Speaker 2: the 1956 Heisman Trophy winner, the golden boy.
• 1:22:51
  Speaker 1: To this day, I don't think anybody else with a
• 1:22:53
  Speaker 1: losing record has ever produced a Heisman Trophy winner. I mean,
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 1: it's Notre Dame. The power of Notre Dame is weak, right?
• 1:22:58
  Speaker 1: The power of Notre Dame. They were a 2-8 team
• 1:23:00
  Speaker 1: the year that Hornig wins the Heisman Trophy. Like, imagine
• 1:23:04
  Speaker 1: how good Hornig had to be to win the Heisman
• 1:23:06
  Speaker 1: Trophy at 2-8. Well, that and the New York sports
• 1:23:08
  Speaker 1: writers cared about the things that they knew. But I digress.
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 2: You know, in 1960, Hornig scores 176 points in a
• 1:23:15
  Speaker 2: 12-game season. And so does the NFL single-season scoring record.
• 1:23:19
  Speaker 2: for decades. And so Lombardi really unlocked him and understood
• 1:23:22
  Speaker 2: how to use them in a way that the previous
• 1:23:24
  Speaker 2: Packers coach never did.
• 1:23:26
  Speaker 1: Look, this is probably a pretty good moment to prevent
• 1:23:28
  Speaker 1: ourselves from turning these guys into marble statues because Hornig
• 1:23:31
  Speaker 1: and Max McGee, you know, we had, who's famous for
• 1:23:35
  Speaker 1: catching the first touchdown in a Superbowl. They used to
• 1:23:39
  Speaker 1: have a pretty good time, particularly Mr.
• 1:23:41
  Speaker 2: Hornig, Mr. McGee. Yeah, that's for sure.
• 1:23:44
  Speaker 1: Curfew is occasionally, more of a suggestion and Lombardi keeps
• 1:23:48
  Speaker 1: finding them. And there are all these stories where the
• 1:23:51
  Speaker 1: fines get larger and larger because Lombardi understands exactly what
• 1:23:55
  Speaker 1: these guys are doing. And yet he also understands something else.
• 1:23:58
  Speaker 1: If Hornig shows up on Sunday and performs, Lombardi can
• 1:24:01
  Speaker 1: live with a certain amount of Saturday night Hornig until
• 1:24:04
  Speaker 1: of course he can't because eventually Hornig's gambling becomes something
• 1:24:09
  Speaker 1: much more serious. And that's what, this is the thing
• 1:24:12
  Speaker 1: that Lombardi kind of knew, but he didn't fully know, no,
• 1:24:16
  Speaker 1: and why he let it go until he couldn't. This
• 1:24:19
  Speaker 1: is the end of part one of our history of
• 1:24:20
  Speaker 1: the Green Bay Packers dynasty. Be sure to follow us
• 1:24:23
  Speaker 1: on social media at dynasticpod and to follow, like, and
• 1:24:26
  Speaker 1: review us wherever you listen to your podcasts and, of course,
• 1:24:29
  Speaker 1: on our YouTube channel as well. Like and subscribe, like
• 1:24:32
  Speaker 1: and subscribe. When we come back, how the Packers go
• 1:24:35
  Speaker 1: from barely surviving as a franchise to becoming the face
• 1:24:39
  Speaker 1: of a bigger, more popular NFL, the NFL that we
• 1:24:42
  Speaker 1: know today.
• 1:24:44
  Speaker 2: But we're also getting into the 1960s, which means there
• 1:24:47
  Speaker 2: are issues of race relations to contend with. And the
• 1:24:50
  Speaker 2: youth-led counterculture that made Lombardi the antithesis of cool by
• 1:24:54
  Speaker 2: the end of the decade. And when he left Green Bay,
• 1:24:57
  Speaker 2: it plunged the Packers into a pool of mediocrity that
• 1:25:00
  Speaker 2: it took more than two decades to emerge from. All
• 1:25:03
  Speaker 2: of that in the next episode of Dynastic.