Latest / Finding New Waters / Overcoming Addiction and Supporting Loved Ones with John Craichy

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Overcoming Addiction and Supporting Loved Ones with John Craichy · Finding New Waters

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Nature of addiction is that you can't say no.
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If you don't want to stop if like, if you're truly addicted,
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not from any pejorative sense, but just like, that's what it
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actually means is that is that is that you don't want to stop,
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you don't know how to stop you. You can't imagine what it would
0:18
be like to live life without that support ABS likely like,
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well, okay, all you got to do is be willing.
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And then what you enter an environment where other people
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are facing that. That I mean for some people you
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have to hit the crisis, right? Sure.
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Hit. And when I say crisis, I mean
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life disruption. It doesn't have to be a complete
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tragedy. Unfortunately, that's the scary
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part is you don't get to control how that unfolds.
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And so I'm for doing all the invitation, you can all the
0:48
setup, all the recovery tools, all the recovery Capital that
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you can muster in a situation and It's going to be somebody
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else's choice. Good morning and welcome to
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finding new Waters. My name is Graham dirty and I'm
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the founder and CEO of new Waters recovery in Raleigh,
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North Carolina. I'm joined today by our by our
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executive director, Justin McClendon in therapist, John
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krejci, John is a licensed clinical social worker who works
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with teens and young adults, specializing in, trauma
1:45
addiction and change management. He serves as board, president of
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journeyman triangle, a teen mentor.
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Rain and leadership development organization and is a member of
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The Advisory board for NCSU masters in social work.
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John does most of his work with young adults teens and their
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families who have suffered with trauma, Addiction dependencies
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in various forms of Failure to Launch.
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John's approach is highly relational with a solid black
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background in Neuroscience. Human development substance, use
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in various modalities for trauma recovery including EMDR.
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In addition he started young adult intensive outpatient, he's
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let me redo that part real quick.
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In addition, he started a young adult intensive outpatient
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program for triangle Springs worked as an emergency room,
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clinician and in-home therapy. Pissed prior to that our goal in
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creating finding new orders is to provide a resource for
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families to help navigate the complexities of supporting.
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The loved one struggling with substance use or mental health
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when we find ourselves in a crisis due to one of these
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issues, most people have no idea where to turn, we hope to shed
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some light on to what is often The Darkest Hour for many
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families. So, John thanks for being with
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us today. Yeah, glad to be with you.
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Of course. And, you know, we've obviously
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had a little bit of time to connect here before getting on.
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On live. And, you know, one of the things
3:00
that I love to start out with in a lot of these episodes is a
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love to get, just like a little bit of an idea for how did you
3:07
get into this work? How did you get into this field?
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I find that it's always pretty interesting.
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There's always a good story kind of a line with that typically
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because you know again this isn't really this isn't work
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that you know, you kind of grow up and say that's what I want to
3:22
do for the rest of my life. You know, there's some sort of
3:24
episode or situation that kind of brings us to to the work.
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That we do. So tell us a little bit about
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how you got into the behavioral health field.
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Oh wow. I've got three sons.
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They're all late 20s, early 30s. Now and I think the challenges
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of parenting and well, frankly, going through divorce, I got
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support going through that process and and I, that support
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allowed me to really shift the way I show up in the world and,
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and like a big Target for me, was I really want to be friends
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with my kids in their 20s, like, when they come Come back.
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You know it's like kids teenagers don't want to be
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around you off, then a lot of times but when they come back I
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want to I want to do not have done enough that my kids really
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want to know me. Yeah.
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And and Dennis Dennis Parnell, the guy who founded The Healing
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Place, he challenged me to go back and do it professionally
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when he saw the stuff I was doing with Journeymen and with
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mankind project and coaching with friends she's like I sat
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down with him at the end of individual, kind of end of the
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year lunch and catching up and he said to me, John, I know you.
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You don't need a degree to do this kind of work but you have
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to have a degree to do this kind of work.
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So when are you gonna suck it up and do what you don't want to
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do? So you could do what you're
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called to do. Like I have this exact words.
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You said to me, I still remember him and he was exactly right.
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Yeah, I really felt. Drive do this kind of work.
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And I was working with the biotech Center and the small
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business and technology Development Center.
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Before that was an entrepreneur. It's been a couple Technologies
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out of NC State and I liked strategy and business planning
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and I always thought a business plan was like the hero's
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journey, right? You know, and so I always kind
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of thought that way and then when I got an opportunity to
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really work with with people with personal stuff, I just
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found it was It was more rewarding for me.
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I mean, like I said like the business thing a lot, it's fun,
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I'm geeky that way. But like yeah, there's just
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something about working with people and their families that
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that I was just, I don't know I guess that touched me so deeply
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and that. Yeah, that's it.
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Yeah, yeah, no. I mean it's obviously it's tough
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to work in this field from a lot of perspectives because, you
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know, obviously we see a lot of people that don't make it.
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We see a lot of people that aren't successful the the
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success rates in general, I think are pretty abysmal, you
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know, in the behavioral health field and we're obviously always
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trying to kind of figure out how we can be better at that but,
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you know, it's Amazing, when we get a client that comes in and
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and the light has turned back on in their eyes.
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And that's what it's all about. At the end of the day, you know,
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how, when you see those alumni come back, when you see those
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clients, come back, taking the suggestions, you will follow the
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path gotten out of their own way, surrender to the process
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and and you know, incredible things happen for them.
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So yeah, incredibly rewarding work that we do but also really
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hard work to now and I know you know from kind of looking at
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your bio and all that At you. You like to work a lot with
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families and kind of young adult patients as well.
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So tell us a little bit about the work you do with young
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adults. Yeah, sure.
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You know what's really big in my mind just because you said about
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the pain and you know doing this kind of work like the the the
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reason I don't think I'll burn out, you know, it is painful
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when you lose someone that's really tough to move through but
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in general, I don't see it as my job.
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Fix people's pain. That I think the pain is an
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invitation to wake up and, like, I respect pain deeply like,
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like, I don't tell somebody's the middle of the pain, that's
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going to be a gift to you, you know?
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There's like the appropriate response to that is, well,
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wouldn't be appropriate on a bug cast, but, but, but like, that's
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the big thing to me, it's like, I see, my job is trying to
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partner with a person for them to understand their pain and
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shift their relationship to it. So that's where The client.
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But oh gosh, maybe even more. So, with parents, like with
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family is like when you see your kids suffering, you know,
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someone said to me that having having a kid is like is like
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taking your heart and putting it on the outside of your chest.
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Like you know, anybody can hurt you and there's nothing you can
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do about it and and I see that is the source of so much of the
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troubles like you train a kid up and they start being
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independent. Rebellious and and at that
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point, you know, you don't have Direct Control anymore.
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You know, you have figure out what kind of influence you have,
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but like you don't have control and so there's subject to, well,
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the world and all the things that happen in their own
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immaturity sand, and so figuring out how to help someone help
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their kids to help themselves is, as I guess a big part of
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what attracts me to it. I like doing that part of the
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work. Well, It's so counterintuitive
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to write as a parent, you know, I've got three daughters myself
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and as a parent, when you see your kids struggling, you want
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to Circle them up hug, um, and, you know, just never let him
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leave, right? And that's that obviously
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doesn't work in this situation, right?
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And I think that's a big thing that we on a daily basis or
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talking to families about his codependency, enabling the
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situation, you know, Finding where that Leverage is for these
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young adult clients specifically, like, is it
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Financial or are they providing, you know, a roof over their
9:14
head. And really, you know, trying to
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kind of, you know, manipulate in a lot of ways to help them make
9:21
the right decision and can you elaborate a little bit on that
9:25
Justin? Yeah.
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No. Absolutely.
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I think you know some things we were talking about before we
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before we went live is, you know, I think a lot of times if
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specially if you have a young person that is struggling right
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or whether it's in active addiction, or there's other
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things that are going on or they're just stuck in that place
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as you as you refer to it as this kind of dependent position.
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If If you will, I think there's just a lot of under development
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and they there's a lot of inability to make appropriate
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decisions to, you know, to better change their life.
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Right. And I think that's where the
9:55
parents can come in in those situations, right?
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Is being able to provide the correct influence, you know.
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Set the appropriate boundaries to assist them in making the
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right decisions and that's a lot of the work that we wind up
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doing. Here is trying to help families.
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That maybe have never charted those waters before to be able
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to understand why these things are important.
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Help them understand a little bit of what's kind of going on
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in that family Dynamic and then to coach them in the direction
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of like, okay, well, how can we assist right now to get them to
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make at least the next right decision?
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And then, we can kind of figure things out from there.
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All right? All right, all right, you learn
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that in the process, right? Like everybody wakes up in there
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already swimming down the river. Yeah, you know, it's not like
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you get to sit and decide when's the right time of the right
10:38
place and who you want to go with.
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It's like when Consciousness hits you a consciousness of the
10:43
problem consciousness of Of the need to do something.
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You're already like caught up in it already.
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And so a lot of that is, you know, people get well, when it
10:55
kids born they're deep and it. Yeah it's a you know an infant
10:59
is never wrong and it's always your responsibility to meet
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their need. Yeah.
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So it's like one of the few things that still sacred in our
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culture I think is a mother's love for an infant was like
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that's it. But then like then there a
11:12
toddler and Then they are wrong sometimes and in either way,
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they whine and you do something about it.
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So it's still, it's still there expressing, I'm not.
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Okay. And you need to do something
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about it, still dependent, right?
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But so you do something about it and you try to get them to quit
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whining and to use their words and they get a little older and
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then they're using their words but they're like, they're like
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little attorneys, you know, it's like I'm hungry.
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Which means you need to make me dinner but you know, and but
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that's a simple one, but it's like, well my friends get to do
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it, you know, like like there's all kinds of things that that
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well, people learned active manipulate, right?
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You, you learn your parents buttons, right?
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And, and, and so you're right that kids are highly practiced
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at even if they're not even aware of it at what they need to
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say, in order to get somebody to do something different.
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Yeah, thanks You know, there's the funny one that falls in that
12:15
same light. Well, the not funny one that
12:17
falls in that same line is suicide, ideation.
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You know, most of the time suicide ideation is it's a cry
12:25
for help but it's but it's a statement, is the hot-button
12:29
statement of, I'm not, okay, and you need to do something, I mean
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you have to take it seriously because, well, it's serious for
12:38
one. But but for most people it's
12:41
Dependent Cry for Help. It's just, that's the end of the
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track. That's where I think.
12:46
Most people say that at some point, if they're not saying
12:49
that they're saying something like, if that happens again, I'm
12:53
going to lose my, you know, it when which is the same thing as
12:58
saying I can't tolerate the way things are how I feel and I
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don't know how to proactively do anything about it.
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So I'm going to act out disruptive Lee and I'll accept
13:11
the random. Result you know somebody else
13:13
will have to do something different to make it, okay?
13:15
And then I'll accept whatever happens from its dependence.
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Yeah. Which to me is the core the core
13:22
part of its why you know addicts even older addicts or you know
13:27
people with substance use disorder.
13:28
I have respect that when I'm talking clinically you know I
13:31
talk about the category but like when you don't mind an
13:33
individual, it really matters there.
13:35
Not an addict there, a person that's wrestling with problems,
13:39
right often trauma. Often other things but But but
13:42
anyway when when juice I'm sorry I just lost my place, I guess.
13:52
Yeah, so I thought that was coming up because we're talking
13:56
about parents and how parents can potentially or how the
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situation arises then how parents kind of respond and it
14:02
even helps sometimes keep them in that dependent position by
14:05
protecting them from their pain. So I wonder, you know, you've
14:08
talked a lot about this kind of biopsychosocial spiritual model
14:11
and other ways that you that you describe that, maybe maybe it
14:15
would be helpful to kind of just outlined that a little bit.
14:17
Yeah, sure. Well so I think it is helpful.
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I can helpful for parents to see that they're moving through a
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process here. Everybody goes from that,
14:26
unconscious place to to some kind of responsibility, some
14:31
kind of self-consciousness to to some more social Consciousness
14:37
and their place. And identity among people and
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and then whatever is beyond that.
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So I'm going to higher purpose, right?
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But like you can think of that biopsychosocial spiritual as a
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stair-step like and and like you don't well bio would be your
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body and your brain, but the psycho would be like your mind
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and the social is obvious, you know, your your, your family and
15:05
your peers and extends beyond that.
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And Spiritual I think of I try to Define spiritual something
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like your existential narrative, right?
15:15
Like what you really believe about the way the world works
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and your role in it. And if and if you really want to
15:22
pursue that one further, I like to think of it at least in my
15:26
work. I like to think of it as what
15:28
your relationship with suffering and what your relationship with
15:31
beauty. And I think a big part of AA is
15:35
teaching people how to have a more healthy relationship with
15:39
suffering, both previous suffering and, and the
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day-to-day. Yeah, thank you and Katherine.
15:45
So so, so I think that people are moving through that but you
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don't leave the body, right? And and go to the Mind, well I
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guess another way to say it would be dependence
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Independence, interdependence and Transcendence.
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So, like, dependence would be that somebody else is
16:05
responsible for meeting. My needs Independence would
16:09
like, okay, I'll meet my own needs, and I'll meet some of
16:12
your needs in order to get my needs met like an employee.
16:16
That's what you expect from an employee, right?
16:18
There's the contract, I'll do my part and I'll get something for
16:21
it. And then, if you think about
16:23
interdependence that you sort of, let go of that contract.
16:26
It's not Tit for Tat in your friendships.
16:28
It's like, well, you can comb, you can come get something out
16:31
of my refrigerator. Like you know, bring something
16:34
at some point to, you know it's like like I can freely meet some
16:38
needs of other people and I can trust that my needs will get met
16:42
but it's not like everything's a tit-for-tat thing and then and
16:47
then I think in the higher level that's I can sacrifice my needs.
16:53
And that's the one we're like you know that if you're a parent
16:56
like you you know that you sacrifice for your kids in ways,
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they don't even see. See, may not even want me.
17:04
Tell you you're wrong for doing it, but you still do it because
17:07
it's the right thing. Like, that's a sacrifice.
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Yeah, at sacrificing your need, but it's not, it's not
17:14
codependent. That's a conscious choice to
17:17
make an investment in somebody else.
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Yeah. But at some point that becomes
17:22
debility, debilitating for for the, you know, the young adult,
17:26
you know, person who's struggling with these substances
17:28
or something like that, right? So at some point we need to kind
17:31
of change that narrative Right. Yeah, and so and that's same
17:36
line I thinking, like so how in your opinion, how do you think
17:39
sometimes the the parent plays a role in?
17:42
Maybe keeping a young adult in that dependent position?
17:48
What do you think about that? Yeah well so one of the
17:53
beautiful and difficult things is to help particularly moms,
17:58
you know, Dad's too but like Mom is the one who's usually Facing
18:03
her body for the baby right in there.
18:05
Is that you know as I said before they think that a
18:07
mother's love for an infant is that thing we think of as sacred
18:11
mother's milk is actually you know an analogy for like that
18:16
right in other places and so moms in particular have to do
18:24
major shifts from you're always right, you're never wrong.
18:28
It's my job to sacrifice for you too.
18:33
What is my role? Where are the boundaries and
18:36
when do I need to let you fail? And, you know, I as I'm saying
18:42
that like, of course, it's the same for dads to and there,
18:44
right alongside it, I think that, that women are more, I see
18:52
women more emotionally affected by that choice, I think in our
18:56
society dads are taught, you know.
18:59
Tough it up, you know, no pain, no gain, you know, the sports
19:02
analogies are the other things like that, that just show up as
19:06
masculine challenge, you know, competitive nature.
19:10
So there's that competition in that nurture and usually those
19:14
polarize a little bit between masculine and feminine.
19:16
Sure. And so, So you get that place
19:21
where? Where you have a teenager who's
19:26
really smart and they could go to a really good school but
19:29
they're not doing their homework because they don't care because
19:32
they're lost because they have girlfriend issues could say
19:35
whatever it's like well if you don't make them do it.
19:39
They're going to have big consequences they're going to
19:40
miss out, right? But if you do it for them, when
19:44
they get there they're not going to be able to do it themselves.
19:47
That to me is a is a frequent set up.
19:51
I think that's a modern problem. Sure.
19:53
It's a boy. but I think also too that it just, you know, they are
19:58
Relentless to in so many cases, right?
20:02
And sometimes it's just easier to give in, right?
20:05
You know, and that's a hard thing, right?
20:07
And it's just easier to appease pacify whatever you want to call
20:11
it. And, and, but obviously, that's
20:13
not our role as parents and holding that boundary, and
20:15
holding that line, and helping them walk through the fear and
20:18
helping them. You know, just grow and prosper
20:21
is really our job, right? And, and that's kind of not
20:25
happening if we're just appeasing and Labeling the
20:28
situation. Yeah, so but it's hard.
20:30
It's hard, man. It is in my kids are still
20:32
young. So we have that's the time to do
20:35
it right off that path yet, right?
20:37
But you know, I'm in recovery, my wife's and recovery and you
20:42
know, chances are one of our kids probably will have some
20:44
sort of issue, right? Hopefully not but you know,
20:47
cards are stacked against us. So yeah, I mean just being very
20:53
being very open with him and having these conversations with
20:55
them early on and setting those those expectations.
20:58
Pretty early on is important. You know, what is he?
21:01
Such a big opportunity in in setting up that progression when
21:07
they're young, right? Like so probably one of the one
21:12
of the many mistakes I did, as a parent is treating them, like,
21:15
they were little adults, you know, give them too much choice
21:19
too much, Freedom, too much of what their opinion matters or
21:25
matters. Isn't really the right word for
21:27
that. Good.
21:28
But like you can be really tight with young kids and then loosen
21:33
up. Yeah.
21:34
But but if you've been really loose getting tighter later on
21:37
so you got a teenager who's used to a tremendous amount of
21:40
freedom and you have parents saying well we want to implement
21:42
boundaries now it's like well I don't know.
21:46
Like if there are Wild Flower right there, wild, whatever.
21:50
What do you do with that? And one of the big things that I
21:53
like to think about. I think a couple of the big
21:55
skills, one of them is If you really want to think about not
22:00
lighting a fire under someone but finding the fire, right?
22:04
So like feed the fire invest in the thing where they have some
22:09
initiative and I can be really hard, you know, someone's
22:12
playing video games all day long, and they don't care about
22:14
anything else other than that. Yeah, okay.
22:17
That's a problem. So you need to maybe cut off
22:19
some resources, right? Because if some butt Yeah, the
22:25
big one. That's a big one.
22:27
Find out what they're passionate about, right?
22:28
And and really just just drive that home and I think that that
22:32
makes me think a lot about to. You know, I've worked primarily
22:36
really with young adult population over the last kind of
22:39
ten years and you know, super passionate about working with
22:42
with that demographic. But you know what I've always
22:45
found to is making that connection for these young
22:48
adults in recovery and and, you know, rather than them seen.
22:52
Okay, my life is over because I can no longer use substances.
22:55
Safely again for the rest of my life.
22:57
It's actually and hopefully but you know life is not over
23:02
because you can't get high right?
23:03
Life is just beginning. Look at all the amazing things
23:05
you can do, right? And and that's so important for
23:09
particularly I think young adults because that's like look
23:12
at all these life you know situations that I've never.
23:14
I'm not going to have a glass of champagne at my wedding in our
23:17
this or that or all these things that are just Monumental and
23:20
catastrophic situations that we are going to be able to
23:24
celebrate. And the reality is when those
23:26
things actually come up, it don't matter, you know, like you
23:29
don't even think twice about it, you know.
23:31
And once you kind of get into the recovery, you understand
23:34
that? That was all just kind of a
23:36
bunch of bullshit, you know? And so, you know, I think that
23:41
it's speaking to what you were just kind of speaking to a
23:44
lighting that fire and the finding that passion with kids.
23:47
I think it's so important. Yeah.
23:49
And like, okay, so if you got someone who's already got a
23:53
problem, then it's a problem. But, you know, you can't just
23:58
feed the fire because their fire of passion is probably about
24:01
using, right? That's they do view the world
24:04
through those lenses. Their friends are viewed through
24:06
those lenses, their Recreation there, their whole identity.
24:10
Yeah, absolutely is view through those lens and so, you wind up.
24:16
So, it's hard. So I think that's a cut-off
24:18
resources, right? I mean, if someone is resistant
24:22
and in denial, Then the thing that's going to make them
24:25
change, is a crisis and you hope it's not a big crisis, but
24:30
you're not in control of the crisis.
24:32
You can, you can handle some things.
24:34
Dennis Pernod used to talk about a controlled fall.
24:37
So like if somebody is in denial and resistant and they're not
24:42
going along with your thing as well.
24:44
First off, if you're the one supplying resources, don't
24:47
invest in anything. You don't agree with right?
24:50
And if they're resistant and they say, well, we, I can Do
24:53
this on my own, then you kind of set them up or two to make their
24:58
attempts, and if those attempts don't work, you're ready to
25:01
catch them. And that's I think what he meant
25:03
by controlled fall is like, okay, I can't control you,
25:07
right? And there's going to be a fall.
25:10
One of the things that I talked about with parents is that they
25:14
can be really frightening and difficult is that Insight
25:18
doesn't usually change. Someone like if you're waiting
25:21
around for them to finally go, Tired of this and I want to
25:24
change. That's probably not the way it's
25:28
going to happen. It's probably going to be
25:30
something happens that that forces their hand to change.
25:36
And I mean, usually it's something cuts off their
25:40
resources, right? So, so, a lot of times older
25:42
people they might not change for a partner, it might change for
25:46
kids, right? But they're really going to
25:50
change it. They lose their job is in their
25:52
their, their His get cut off. And then, you know, in more
25:55
tragic circumstances, somebody gets a DUI or somebody is going
25:59
to go to jail, jail stops people.
26:01
There's, there's jail to saved, a lot of all.
26:03
You guys wouldn't have that there's jail that saved lots of
26:05
people, right? Yep, absolutely.
26:09
What's really hard because because when someone's addicted,
26:12
they use their weakness, as The Leverage Point, that's their
26:15
power like oh, you have to I'm that's that dependence again,
26:18
I'm not. Okay.
26:19
And you need to do something about it.
26:21
And oh my gosh, if that person has Struggled with anxiety or
26:25
depression or eating disorder or or some other kind of struggle
26:31
like that where, you know, they're having a harder time
26:33
than their peers. It's like, well, of course,
26:36
you're going to help them. Of course you want to and you
26:40
know that old thing from recovery don't don't do anything
26:43
for someone that they can do for themselves.
26:45
If you do, you're going to disempower, write them.
26:49
It's hard because if someone has a dependency that there, Are not
26:54
able to let go of to move through, you got to treat them
26:57
differently than you would because like most of parenting
27:00
is about love and hope and optimism.
27:04
And here we're going to give you this chance this momentum or
27:07
whatever. But if but if someone is someone
27:11
is in that dependent place they're going to eat up all the
27:14
resources. All the hope that you put it
27:17
them is Supply. It's a stash.
27:19
Yeah you know and I feel like we see that a lot to like you were
27:22
talking about Limiting or cutting off those resources as a
27:26
method of kind of helping that person, you know, grow or make
27:29
the right decision. And I think, you know, going
27:31
back to that, like, we see that a lot, right?
27:33
I mean, whether it's a young adult mean sometimes.
27:36
It's an adult, right? And it's a it's a, you know,
27:39
intimate relationship that we're dealing with and the spouse is
27:42
trying to get the other spouse to make the right decision to
27:44
enter treatment all kinds of different shapes and sizes,
27:46
right? But we see a lot of that where,
27:51
you know, the person is considering treatment.
27:53
Or maybe they've even come in to us to detox and now we're
27:56
talking about that next level of care.
27:59
And you see a lot of times we're trying, we're saying, hey, given
28:04
this current situation with this we're saying you need to do X,
28:09
Y, and Z, and the spouse or the parent or whoever it is, is
28:13
like, yes, I agree. I agree.
28:15
They need to do this. They need to make these changes.
28:17
They need to go into this level of treatment, but I'm not going
28:21
to push them, it needs to be there.
28:23
Decision. And I think that's, that's kind
28:26
of an old adage right, when it comes to recovery is like, you
28:29
got it. They've got to be willing.
28:30
They got to do it themselves which, you know, I definitely we
28:34
see it all the time where people have a psychic shift while
28:37
they're in treatment. Absolutely.
28:39
I even you know, I'm a case of that where I went in and, you
28:41
know, was intervened on by family and was kind of motivated
28:44
by family to do it. I was willing to do it but still
28:47
I didn't, I was denied my whole heart in it until probably about
28:50
two or three weeks into treatment something change.
28:53
Aged where I said, wow! All I've done is run my life
28:56
into the ground, maybe I should listen to some other people who
28:59
actually know what the hell they're talking about.
29:01
Yeah, you know, and I got out of my own way I surrendered and I
29:05
just put my hands up and said I'll do whatever you guys tell
29:07
me to do. Yeah.
29:08
Right and that's what makes a difference, you know.
29:10
So that's interesting what you just said.
29:12
Because I think what you were saying is that that the light
29:16
went on, for you or things shifted for you while you were
29:19
in treatment of percent. So like like, I don't know, you
29:23
Moments of willingness right from people where they're soft,
29:27
right? And I say to anybody who'll
29:29
listen, don't if somebody says they're willing to go, go be
29:33
prepared for them to say that and when they say, go go don't
29:38
don't don't don't. You don't need a bath, you don't
29:40
need to change your clothes, you know.
29:42
Toothbrush is good friend need to go.
29:45
You definitely don't need to see the girlfriend first, right?
29:48
Because any one of those things gives an opportunity for someone
29:52
to settle back out as the Because it takes willingness.
29:55
But like, I mean, the whole nature of addiction is that you
29:59
can't say no, if you don't want to stop if like, if you're truly
30:02
addicted, not from any pejorative sense, but just like,
30:06
that's what it action means is that is that is that you don't
30:09
want to stop. You don't know how to stop you.
30:12
You can't imagine what it would be like to live life without
30:16
that support absolutely like. Well, okay, all you got to do is
30:21
be willing. And then what you're Environment
30:24
where other people are facing that.
30:26
I mean, for some people, you have to hit the crisis, right?
30:29
Sure it. And when I say crisis, I mean
30:32
life disruption. It doesn't have to be a complete
30:35
tragedy. Unfortunately, that's the scary
30:37
part, right? You don't get to control how
30:40
that unfolds. And so I'm for doing all the
30:43
invitation, you can all the setup, all the recovery tools,
30:47
all the recovery Capital that you can muster in a situation.
30:53
and, and It's going to be somebody else's choice and
30:58
that's the painful part especially when it's your kid,
31:01
right? Because if they hurt themselves,
31:03
they're going to hurt you. You're going to hurt in ways
31:06
that, you know, you can't. Yeah.
31:09
You know, that you, well, whatever.
31:10
I don't want to use hyperbole on that.
31:12
But like, you know, most parents have that thing that comes up
31:17
when you think about your kid hurting and yet, if they don't
31:21
suffer, if they don't fail, I mean if you don't have the pain,
31:27
you don't wake up. Yeah.
31:28
It's just I think that's the nature of righteousness up and
31:33
yeah it's a great motivator you know.
31:35
And I think that is. Yeah I mean listen you know it's
31:39
interesting to when you think back and I think back on my kind
31:41
of story and journey and all that and yes, a lot of pain, a
31:46
lot of very difficult times you know, in my mid 20s but I
31:51
wouldn't change a thing, you know, and and that that That
31:54
brought me to where I am now, right?
31:56
And that experience has made everything of me and it's given
31:59
me a career and, and all those things where I didn't have a
32:02
whole lot of Direction prior to that.
32:04
So yeah, I mean, I think it's really important to kind of look
32:07
at look at that motivator. And you know it it's like
32:11
shifting your perspective on. Like what is you know, what is
32:14
that pain? What is that fear?
32:16
It's not really that big that bad of a thing if it's creating
32:20
a lot of Beauty in the longer, right?
32:22
Absolutely. So So afraid of
32:24
uncomfortability. Yeah, you know, well, and I
32:27
think that goes back to what we were talking about begin with
32:29
and this is, you know, my expression of that.
32:33
But, you know, let parents and I'm guilty of the same thing
32:37
with my own two boys, right? But you have this tendency to
32:39
want to protect them from the pain and then, you know, we're
32:42
doing that because we love them and we want to keep them safe
32:44
and all that stuff. But at the same time to you
32:46
point, like we're also, you know, robbing them of
32:50
opportunities for growth. I think what I mean.
32:53
Yeah, absolutely Lee, and I think that's the same thing
32:57
we're talking about, you know, these decisions, right?
32:59
You know, recovery versus continuing with with substance
33:03
abuse or whatever the behavior is, is it's the same thing
33:05
without setting those boundaries without, you know, cutting off
33:09
or limiting the resources, right?
33:11
We're really doing the same thing.
33:12
We're just kind of, you know, trying to protect them from the
33:16
pain. So to speak, right?
33:17
Yeah. So so sitting here talking about
33:21
it as an abstract thing, it's like philosophical, right?
33:24
The The pain thing, right? But like everybody's pain is
33:27
like a hundred percent, your pain, your triggers, your
33:31
things, they don't scare me, like, I guess, sit here, all day
33:34
and talk about whatever, deep things you've been through, and
33:38
I'm good with that, but mine scare me.
33:41
Yeah, right. That is the nature of it.
33:43
And that's what, especially as with parents.
33:46
It's like, well, how do you move through that?
33:50
And I think that like a first stage is, is people have to feel
33:54
comfortable at first, right? Because they just do if you're
33:57
not comfortable, then somebody's not paying attention, right?
34:00
You you're like that's your first sign, but like, the more
34:03
you sit with it Comforts, not the answer.
34:06
In fact that's actually might be addiction.
34:09
Might be defined as addiction to comfort.
34:12
Sure like. And so the one of the first
34:16
stages is separating comfort and safety because like You just
34:20
assume if you're uncomfortable, it's unsafe.
34:22
But that's not true. In fact, it's a, it is an
34:26
uncomfortable decision to choose recovery to go into Just
34:29
Surrender Your control very uncomfortable.
34:32
Absolutely. But like, like this place is
34:36
safe, right? Right.
34:37
It may be. One of the most safe things for
34:40
someone who has a substance dependency to be uncomfortable.
34:44
Sure safe. Absolutely.
34:47
And then I think I think over time I'm like, particularly
34:51
like, what the steps I think, people learn that safety is a
34:54
judgment, right Comforts kind of a feeling and safety's a
34:58
judgment and you can be safe wherever you are.
35:03
Plenty of people who are really safe in dangerous circumstances,
35:08
absolutely. I love the way yeah.
35:11
And I think that's why it's, you know, there's this huge
35:13
spiritual component, right? Yeah.
35:14
And you know, because for me in that situation like, Like, that
35:20
was not me making that decision, right?
35:22
Like I was touched by, you know, we'll call it the hand of God,
35:26
or whatever it was that like that.
35:28
I truly believe there was something that helped me kind of
35:31
have that shift in perspective, right?
35:33
Because it came out of nowhere. It was not me.
35:36
So I think that that's like an important thing to look at to is
35:39
the spiritual part of this whole process.
35:41
And this, and this, and this journey and, you know, really,
35:44
you know, again that's that's like, you know, the tools that
35:47
we learned in this process and even think about our Young
35:50
children, and things like that too, is that we need to be
35:52
teaching them a lot of these tools that we now have as a
35:55
result of being in recovery like meditation journaling, yoga
36:00
breath work, you know, a lot of the somatic work that we do,
36:03
that's all stuff that kids should be doing in the school's,
36:07
right? Yeah.
36:08
And like we need to be we need to be teaching them these life
36:11
skills early on. And unfortunately, it's just not
36:14
it's not talked about it's not championed at all.
36:17
All right, so I get kind of excited.
36:19
Think about that because I have another angle on that, okay?
36:24
Coping skills are going to be a part of any good program, right?
36:29
But one of the things I saw like a triangle Springs, I found that
36:34
until you recognize some, what someone's pain is what they're
36:38
really struggling with. They usually don't want a coping
36:41
skill because it's like, oh, you can teach me to breathe, is that
36:45
going to change my whatever? It's like, no.
36:48
Like a lot of Symptoms are the Cry for Help suicide, ideations
36:53
Chief among them and I, that's, that's such a touchy subject.
36:57
You have to take it seriously, as if it's an intent, when you
37:00
hear it, you got to explore that, but when you do that, it's
37:04
what I saw in the emergency room all the time, it's that cry for
37:07
help. Yeah, well it's not a good
37:09
measure if somebody does less suicide ideation right.
37:13
Right. The good measure is there some
37:15
shift in their life where they don't need that.
37:17
It could be that but but if If you're just telling someone,
37:21
it's basically someone's yelling for help in your tell him to
37:23
quiet down. Well, here, if you just breathe
37:25
them or little little, you won't, you won't, you won't be
37:28
so loud. And they're like, what's really
37:31
going on is they're acting out because they can't well, the
37:35
earlier thing I said, if that happens again, I'm going to lose
37:38
my rap. What they're doing is they're
37:40
losing their crap, to show you that.
37:42
It's not working. They need something different,
37:44
right? And okay, sometimes an
37:48
incremental help. Help someone Back in line and
37:50
gain some confidence. And I think that's a difference
37:53
between somebody who who has a real use disorder.
37:57
Somebody hasn't had it. And I say that affectionately
38:00
not in a pejorative, but like people who have serious
38:05
dependency problems there. Well, I think of myself as a
38:10
personality, I don't know why I didn't wind up being an
38:13
alcoholic because I'm intense person.
38:16
I don't think the rules apply to me if a little is good more.
38:19
More is better like, oh my God, doesn't that sound?
38:22
Does that sound familiar to you guys have any clients that sound
38:26
like that and like that. Get you in trouble, right?
38:31
That kind of end if I was genetically predisposed, I'd
38:34
probably be an alcoholic because I gave it a good run when I was,
38:37
you know, a young man and you know, I say that kind of
38:41
tongue-in-cheek but it's like, I think that people who encounter
38:47
that, who have that problem Need to be respected as being
38:52
different. There's something different
38:54
going on for them that they need help managing.
38:59
And and it's not like you can just use love and logic to help
39:03
someone who stuck in addiction. Yeah they need some they need
39:08
something that helps change the framework that they're dealing
39:12
with. Yeah.
39:13
Absolutely 100%. Yeah, no.
39:16
And I definitely see what you're saying, 100%.
39:19
From that perspective. But I also think that you know,
39:23
for me in particular it was I was able to have that spiritual
39:27
experience as a result of doing some of those things.
39:30
Right. Yeah.
39:31
And that was that was really interesting because, you know,
39:33
for me it was I was losing my mind and I literally thought I
39:37
was losing my mind. Like, I was angry.
39:39
I was frustrated. And and listen, my coping skills
39:42
have been taken away so I hadn't done.
39:43
Right. Yeah.
39:44
So now everybody said, why don't you try journaling want to try
39:47
meditation when she and then, and it took me about Two weeks
39:50
until I was so crazy that I said, okay, this is the only
39:53
thing I had to do. I said I'll do it and I started
39:56
journaling and I would go every night to this little chap on.
39:59
I would just write just, you know just like, you know, You
40:05
know, whatever came to my mind and United that piece.
40:10
So I would just write and I would go to this journey this
40:12
little chapel and I would just write, write write and I
40:14
realized after going back after about a week in reading it that
40:17
I was writing to my higher power, right?
40:20
And that was the first time that I've said, oh wait, it can be
40:23
that easy. Like I can just it's a
40:25
relationship like I would have with any other person, you know,
40:28
talk to them in that way. And this is the closest
40:31
relationship that I'll ever have and that like made That
40:34
connection happen for me. And I and from there, it kind of
40:37
went, it went from there, right? But I was able to have that kind
40:39
of spiritual note in that moment.
40:42
Yeah, it's really cool. So I'm a little bombastic
40:46
sometimes in the way that I talk because I'm intense.
40:48
No, but other personalities are great on podcasts.
40:55
What you said? Makes it clear to me that my
40:58
should make it clear yeah that that I didn't mean that those
41:03
coping skills and those activities around like the steps
41:06
are individual steps. Like, oh my gosh, there's life
41:09
in that. One of my mentors talked about.
41:14
That is good. Orderly Direction.
41:17
And and so I'm a big believer in that.
41:19
I'm just saying early on in the and that was kind of the way we
41:23
frame some of the earlier discussion is like, like, how do
41:26
you move someone from? Yeah, from being in trouble to
41:29
seek in? Three and and I think a lot of
41:34
times people would like to give someone incremental help and
41:39
then someone in real trouble, someone who's addicted will
41:43
often reject incremental, help as, as like you don't get it,
41:48
you don't see me. Do you have any idea what I'm
41:50
dealing with? And then the loving parents
41:52
like, well, if you just do this, things will be a little better
41:55
and they're going like, no, I don't want things to be a little
41:59
better. I don't that a little better
42:01
still suck. Sucks.
42:02
Yeah. For me.
42:03
Yeah. And you held it ain't gets great
42:04
enough. Like my situation, we don't make
42:08
the change. Yeah, right.
42:10
It's really, it's super complex. It's can be frustrating.
42:15
Yeah. And so for you, just as a
42:16
clinician where, you know, we see a lot, it's a lot, you know,
42:20
we're doing so much work to get these folks, to, you know, go to
42:23
Residential Treatment because we know that's going to be the best
42:25
next step for this client. And the family just isn't
42:29
willing to hold the line as Justin was saying earlier.
42:31
Really wanted to be their decision and ultimately, they
42:34
don't move forward with our suggestion.
42:36
They go to outpatient and below the the household below, the
42:40
family situation up and we get a call three or four weeks later.
42:43
Saying, either we need to come back in because he's been using
42:46
it ever since he left or, and you guys were right.
42:49
Or, you know, we need to kind of you guys need to help us.
42:51
Get them into the residential level we're talking about.
42:53
So it's frustrating. It really is.
42:56
And, you know, and I think, you know, just to throw this nugget
42:59
in there and I'm sure you can relate, we can all relate to
43:01
this, right? But but, you know, that's where
43:03
we have to be mindful of our of our role in the situation
43:06
sometimes. And then it can it can be very
43:08
frustrating, right? I mean, you're working with
43:10
them, you're giving 100 percent of your energy, you're working
43:12
with the family, trying to get them to kind of see things for
43:15
what it is so that we can get things moved in the right
43:17
direction in the right direction.
43:20
But sometimes we just don't win those battles, right?
43:23
You know sometimes we just got to if there was any change
43:26
affected whatsoever, we just have to take that for what it is
43:29
and then be hopeful that, you know, either Proven dramatically
43:33
wrong or that will be there waiting to help when the when
43:36
the situation arises and you know to me that's key.
43:39
Yeah right. I want the kind of relationship
43:41
with someone where their boundaries are respected.
43:44
Yep and that I really do see them as a person regardless of
43:49
their use so that when they decide to do something, I'm a
43:53
person that they would trust to come back to.
43:56
And so I'm all about preserving people's choice because I think
44:02
That's, I mean, what else do you have?
44:04
And you can't make someone go into recovery.
44:08
Sometimes I wish we could actually, you know, that's like
44:12
the power note. No, good man.
44:13
Should know good, man. No good man would want.
44:16
And no bad man should have. That's when I was in the
44:21
emergency room. I would see people in passing,
44:24
right? So they're in crisis often,
44:25
right? And that's an opportunity for
44:27
change, but I don't have much Rapport because they're just
44:30
passing through, I'm doing an assessment.
44:31
Met and most likely send them on somewhere.
44:34
Yeah, but I would usually if they were at a low point where
44:40
they were really trying to decide their soft that time, and
44:43
it's time to reach someone, right?
44:45
That's the controlled fall, right?
44:47
They've reached some moment of Crisis and there's an
44:50
opportunity and I would usually say something like there's a
44:55
proverb that says, if you come whistling and singing loud
45:00
blessings too early in the Morning, it'll be counted as a
45:03
curse and that's a peculiar thing, right?
45:07
So what does that mean to me? That means if I look at you
45:11
person in the emergency room and I say, oh, I see, you're in
45:14
crisis, I see all that pain, but that's going to be a gift to
45:17
you. Then I'm whistling and singing
45:19
loud blessings too early and your response is going to be
45:22
something like, you know, Fu. You don't see me, you don't know
45:24
me, you don't hit me. But what I would usually say
45:27
that and ask can I have your permission to like Risk?
45:31
Lincoln singing loud blessings too early because I think a lot
45:37
of times people who really hurt are also people who have a lot
45:43
of insight on hurting, they have friends that hurt, they thought
45:47
about their pain, they thought about their parents paying
45:49
they've really spent a lot of time swimming in that kind of
45:55
environment. And the blessing on the other
45:59
side of that is that a lot of times Times you wind up being a
46:03
huge gift to other people in pain when you find recovery.
46:08
And I think a lot of people will seek recovery if they have some
46:13
vision of some kind of life worth living.
46:16
And a lot of times that the that that vision is is the idea that
46:21
you could really help somebody else you could save someone from
46:25
going through the crap that you had to go through.
46:28
And I mean, honestly, that's why I'm With therapist today.
46:33
Yeah 100%. And I'm in 100% relate to that
46:36
what a beautiful way to make a career helping others and and
46:40
again turn to seeing that light turn back on in their eyes,
46:42
there's really nothing better than yeah.
46:44
That's why we do it, right, it's why we do it.
46:46
So, so let's sit, let's do this show.
46:48
John, thanks again for being here today.
46:51
How can professionals families and individuals best connect
46:53
with you? John Gray Qi.
46:57
J krejci at gmail, that's CRA. Ice eh, Hy J krejci.
47:03
At GMOs a good good. Good way to reach me.
47:06
Can you guys who can send them to me?
47:09
Absolutely. Absolutely.
47:11
Will have your information listed on the podcast site, and
47:15
all that so we can make sure that people certainly find you.
47:18
If they if any service I see people in person downtown
47:21
Raleigh, North End of downtown. So really quick question for you
47:25
related to that. So I know you work with young
47:27
adults, you mentioned you liked working with parents, we can
47:30
take on like a Apple or a parent as a client.
47:34
Oh yeah, okay, sure. So so I think, you know, when
47:36
somebody asks what you do, what your specialty is, its
47:40
addiction, and Trauma and Failure to Launch with young
47:43
people, okay? But through that work chaotic
47:48
family situations, because I worked in the emergency room, I
47:51
work with physicians in recovery.
47:53
Okay, so I do a lot of adult work, executive women oddly, you
47:57
know my mom was the mayor of the little town.
47:59
I'm from his right eye. I really like helping strong.
48:05
People wrestle with strong challenges, so I don't do the
48:08
average couples work like. But, you know, date nights and
48:12
communication Styles. Those things are important,
48:15
that's not my specialty. But someone is having, you know,
48:18
chaotic kind of trouble in their marriage and they need some
48:21
healing, some trauma kinds of things, whether it's addiction
48:23
or trauma and like, doing that work.
48:25
And so I wind up doing parent, work, and couples work, family
48:30
work, that kind of thing. It's an addiction is a family
48:34
disease in men. Yeah, absolutely.
48:38
Do you have room on your caseload?
48:40
Yeah. Yeah.
48:41
I am. I try to help people and move
48:44
them along, like, I don't, I don't just hang on, I'm out of
48:47
network and that's a barrier for some people.
48:50
Sure. And so in some situations I'll
48:53
you know, do something about that.
48:54
If it's a situation where I think I've got something unique
48:57
to offer but but yeah, stay fairly busy, but you know, No.
49:02
Or periodically. Have space?
49:04
Yeah, very good. So send them my way, we will
49:06
have to look forward to. Well, thanks so much for being
49:08
here today. Thank you.
49:10
Justin for joining me and happy to be here.
49:12
We'll see you all next week. Thanks guys.
49:14
It's good conversation.