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S2 Ep 7: The Dragon and the Treasure · Attachment Matters Podcast

0:01
SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Attachment Matters.
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This podcast is a conversation between two mothers who are
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passionate about the
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SPEAKER_00: subject of attachment.
0:10
SPEAKER_00: This is Rose.
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SPEAKER_02: And I'm Stoic Mom.
0:13
Both of our families ended up entangled in the confusing world
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of gender and
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SPEAKER_02: identity,
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SPEAKER_02: following very different routes to get here.
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SPEAKER_02: Through this experience,
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SPEAKER_02: we each discovered how in parenting our children,
0:25
SPEAKER_02: we are offered the opportunity to grow ourselves up.
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Our hope is to offer greater insight into how to strengthen the
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relationship
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SPEAKER_00: between parents and their children,
0:36
SPEAKER_00: despite all odds.
0:38
SPEAKER_02: In this episode,
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SPEAKER_02: Rose describes the deficits that appear in someone who's not integrative,
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SPEAKER_02: or in other words,
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what we may notice when someone is not able to mix or temper
0:47
their emotions.
0:49
We emphasize that maturation is a developmental process that
0:52
must unfold and
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SPEAKER_02: caution against pathologizing immaturity.
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We also explore what can get in the way of the integrative
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process and encourage
1:01
SPEAKER_02: noticing where,
1:02
SPEAKER_02: instead of trying to cut something unpleasant out,
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we might consider what we can add in to temper ourselves and
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model integration.
1:10
SPEAKER_02: Hello.
1:11
SPEAKER_02: Hi, Rose.
1:14
SPEAKER_02: How's it going?
1:15
SPEAKER_02: Um...
1:19
SPEAKER_02: It's going well.
1:20
SPEAKER_02: I'm a little sleepy this morning.
1:24
SPEAKER_00: Well, it's good to be back together.
1:27
SPEAKER_00: And we're recording on the summer solstice.
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SPEAKER_00: So a belated happy summer solstice to our listeners.
1:37
SPEAKER_00: And a happy summer solstice to you today.
1:43
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
1:43
And I live in a part of the world where we're very affected by
1:47
the length of the day.
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SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we have long days this time of year.
1:53
SPEAKER_02: And wow, it makes it hard to sleep.
1:58
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I bet.
2:03
SPEAKER_00: I bet.
2:03
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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And for us,
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we just got hit with like our first massive heat wave of the
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summer.
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SPEAKER_00: So it made it hard to sleep last night over here, too.
2:12
SPEAKER_00: But we did okay.
2:14
SPEAKER_00: And lots of transition,
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SPEAKER_00: school ending,
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SPEAKER_00: summer starting,
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SPEAKER_00: going out of structure to kind of open this.
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And that,
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especially for my younger or my older son,
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just gets his mind going.
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SPEAKER_00: He's really searching for the new structure, the new routine.
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SPEAKER_00: And we're in a state of transition around that.
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SPEAKER_00: So that's always a time of ups and downs and emptiness.
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There's a sense of he keeps talking about like something's
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missing,
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something's missing.
2:45
SPEAKER_02: Interesting.
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SPEAKER_00: And yeah,
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SPEAKER_00: I think it's a good thing that he feels that,
2:50
SPEAKER_00: that he notices an emptiness,
2:54
SPEAKER_00: you know,
2:55
SPEAKER_00: and he's just trying to put a name to it.
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SPEAKER_00: He's trying to figure it out.
3:00
SPEAKER_02: Wow.
3:01
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
3:02
SPEAKER_02: That is interesting.
3:04
SPEAKER_02: And show some self-reflection.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
3:10
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
3:11
SPEAKER_00: So...
3:13
SPEAKER_00: For our listeners,
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just to kind of bring everybody in to where we are today as we
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record in our
3:20
SPEAKER_00: Attachment Matters podcast,
3:22
SPEAKER_00: we're in season two.
3:24
SPEAKER_00: I believe this is episode seven.
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SPEAKER_00: Is that correct?
3:28
SPEAKER_01: That's correct.
3:30
SPEAKER_00: And yeah, so wow.
3:35
SPEAKER_00: So far we have kind of covered...
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an introduction to kind of the broader model of attachment and
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development.
3:48
SPEAKER_00: That is what would be called the Dr.
3:51
SPEAKER_00: Neufeld,
3:52
SPEAKER_00: the Neufeld model of the attachment based developmental approach.
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And we have honed in sort of on exploring maturation as one of
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three aspects of
4:07
SPEAKER_00: these factors that work together to help
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that acorn turn into the oak tree for us to,
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our potential as human beings to unfold.
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SPEAKER_00: And within
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SPEAKER_00: just that one aspect of maturation, there's another three aspects.
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SPEAKER_00: And so we've talked about emergence,
4:29
SPEAKER_00: which is sort of this,
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SPEAKER_00: the development of agency and someone coming into a sense of self,
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SPEAKER_00: being a separate self.
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And we've covered the adaptive process or adaptation,
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which is the ability to
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SPEAKER_00: adapt to things we cannot change through this fundamental experience of,
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SPEAKER_00: of,
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SPEAKER_00: of the emotionally experiencing the sense of futility,
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SPEAKER_00: um,
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SPEAKER_00: and,
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SPEAKER_00: and feeling sadness,
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SPEAKER_00: disappointment,
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SPEAKER_00: having our tears,
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SPEAKER_00: so to speak.
5:01
SPEAKER_00: Um,
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SPEAKER_00: and so last episode in episode six,
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SPEAKER_00: we introduced the,
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SPEAKER_00: the third of that sort of two dimensional triangle of maturation,
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SPEAKER_00: which is called the integrative process.
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SPEAKER_00: And as we spoke about last episode,
5:16
SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: this is something that I think we have some,
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SPEAKER_00: we've developed more understanding of through neuroscience,
5:23
SPEAKER_00: I think.
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SPEAKER_00: And especially for parents who are navigating this world of gender,
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SPEAKER_00: this comes into play a lot because people are always referencing,
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SPEAKER_00: my child's brain isn't fully developed.
5:35
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
5:36
SPEAKER_00: you know, and that's not going to happen until 25 years of age.
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SPEAKER_00: So I think there is like four,
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SPEAKER_00: I think it's a very positive development that,
5:46
SPEAKER_00: that we are starting to have insight into this idea that the,
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the role the prefrontal cortex plays and that it is a
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developmental process that
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SPEAKER_00: brings it,
5:58
SPEAKER_00: that,
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SPEAKER_00: that grows it,
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SPEAKER_00: that allows it to develop.
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SPEAKER_00: And, um,
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SPEAKER_00: You know, that's really what this integrative process is all about.
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SPEAKER_00: And so we really started to dive into that last episode.
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SPEAKER_02: You are,
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SPEAKER_02: as I'm listening to you summarize this,
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SPEAKER_02: a question that has been on my mind for a very long time is coming to me.
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SPEAKER_02: And I'm curious what your thoughts would be,
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SPEAKER_02: if you have any idea what Dr.
6:28
SPEAKER_02: Neufeld might think of this.
6:32
SPEAKER_02: That adolescence is a relatively new idea for us.
6:40
SPEAKER_02: And it wasn't that long ago that once you hit puberty,
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SPEAKER_02: you were basically thrust into an adult role,
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SPEAKER_02: right?
6:50
SPEAKER_02: Like you were transitioned into adulthood and puberty, right?
6:56
SPEAKER_02: And expected to function in the world as an adult, right?
7:01
SPEAKER_02: And I'd be curious if,
7:02
SPEAKER_02: you know,
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SPEAKER_02: we talk about the prefrontal cortex becoming more integrated,
7:08
SPEAKER_02: right,
7:08
SPEAKER_02: or fully developed at around age 25 or in the late 20s.
7:13
SPEAKER_02: Do you think that it's always been that way?
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Do you think that that's how we're biologically made up is for
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it to integrate at
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SPEAKER_02: that point in our lives?
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SPEAKER_02: Or is that also the result of
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SPEAKER_02: our change in, in, uh, culture and the lengthening of childhood.
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
7:39
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think I would say yes.
7:41
SPEAKER_00: And as my,
7:42
SPEAKER_00: my,
7:42
SPEAKER_00: just my personal gut response,
7:45
SPEAKER_00: um,
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SPEAKER_00: I think adolescence has been extended longer or,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: puberty,
7:52
SPEAKER_00: you know,
7:52
SPEAKER_00: uh,
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SPEAKER_00: maybe just that
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SPEAKER_00: That's the sense that I get.
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SPEAKER_00: And at the same time,
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I think about a lot of traditional cultures and even traditions
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and let's say like
8:07
Western civilization that have a rite of passage for that stage
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of adolescence that
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SPEAKER_00: does help facilitate that what Dr.
8:18
SPEAKER_00: Nufo would call adolescence like a bridge.
8:20
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
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SPEAKER_00: And not everybody crosses it.
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SPEAKER_00: OK, this is all about.
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SPEAKER_00: spontaneous but not inevitable, right?
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So even when we talk about the prefrontal cortex is fully
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developed at 25 years of
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SPEAKER_00: age,
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SPEAKER_00: it's not a given.
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SPEAKER_00: Some people never develop the prefrontal cortex.
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SPEAKER_00: As 70-year-olds, they don't have a fully developed prefrontal cortex.
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SPEAKER_00: And as we talk about the signs of an integrated
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SPEAKER_00: child or person,
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SPEAKER_00: adult,
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or a deficit when that person has not developed an integrated
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prefrontal cortex,
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SPEAKER_00: you know people like this.
9:00
SPEAKER_00: We all know people like this.
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SPEAKER_00: Even within us as individuals,
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SPEAKER_00: if I have the capacity to mix feelings and emotions,
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SPEAKER_00: if I'm in a passionate moment or I'm tired and worn out,
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SPEAKER_00: I'm not gonna necessarily be able to function that way at any,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: we're not always functioning that way.
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SPEAKER_00: So, so I think that's where,
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SPEAKER_00: you know, just some different layers to answer that question.
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One is that I do think if there is evidence that there is a
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rite of passage
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SPEAKER_00: involved,
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SPEAKER_00: moving from childhood to adulthood,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: across cultures and across history.
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SPEAKER_00: The Western civilization,
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SPEAKER_00: when I was thinking it was like Catholic confirmation,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: there is this,
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SPEAKER_00: even in like,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: our kind of more modernistic,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
9:47
SPEAKER_00: Western culture,
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SPEAKER_00: there are still
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SPEAKER_00: places where we did create or facilitate those rites of passage.
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SPEAKER_00: The bar and bat mitzvah.
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SPEAKER_00: So I'm hearing a lot of it.
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SPEAKER_00: Quinceañera, you know, in Latin America.
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SPEAKER_00: So I think that's always been there is my guess.
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SPEAKER_00: I'm guessing here, but that's based on those pieces of evidence.
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But I do wonder if that 25 years of age is what we've noticed
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as the norm through brain scans.
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SPEAKER_00: But it hasn't necessarily always been that way.
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SPEAKER_02: Yes, yes.
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SPEAKER_02: That was something I've wondered about.
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SPEAKER_02: Okay.
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SPEAKER_02: And I think it's also important to highlight what you're saying.
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SPEAKER_02: It's not inevitable.
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SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
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And I do hear that often in this world is I'm just trying to
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get my kid to 25,
10:48
SPEAKER_02: you know,
10:48
SPEAKER_02: and it can almost feel a little black and white or,
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SPEAKER_02: you know,
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SPEAKER_02: that we take that very literally.
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SPEAKER_02: And so as long as I can get them to their late 20s,
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SPEAKER_02: their brain is fully developed and I've done my job.
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SPEAKER_02: Kind of thing, you know, and I do think it's helpful.
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SPEAKER_02: The more maturity,
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SPEAKER_02: the more experience a child has,
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SPEAKER_02: the more equipped they are to make healthy decisions for their future.
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SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
11:15
SPEAKER_02: And,
11:16
SPEAKER_02: you know,
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I think this is helpful information to keep us paying attention
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for these fruits,
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SPEAKER_02: you know,
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SPEAKER_02: to notice whether the maturity is actually there.
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SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
11:32
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
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SPEAKER_00: on the one hand,
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I think it's really good to have that long-term perspective and
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that this is a
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SPEAKER_00: developmental process that's unfolding.
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SPEAKER_00: So saying like,
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SPEAKER_00: I just need to get them to 25,
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SPEAKER_00: I think is like,
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SPEAKER_00: could be a very helpful mantra for a parent.
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SPEAKER_00: You know, on the one hand, like their development is still unfolding.
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SPEAKER_00: You know, maturation is still going to take place.
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You know,
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I think where we might not do ourselves a favor is to see it
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literally or rigidly.
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SPEAKER_00: and,
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SPEAKER_00: and,
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SPEAKER_00: and,
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SPEAKER_00: and we got to remember that we're still going to be their best bet even,
12:09
SPEAKER_00: you know,
12:09
SPEAKER_00: through and beyond.
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SPEAKER_00: And,
12:12
SPEAKER_00: you know,
12:12
SPEAKER_00: that maybe our,
12:15
SPEAKER_00: you know,
12:15
SPEAKER_00: as they mature,
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SPEAKER_00: our role is going to shift and change,
12:20
SPEAKER_00: um,
12:21
SPEAKER_00: in terms of what their needs are,
12:22
SPEAKER_00: you know,
12:23
SPEAKER_00: and at the same time,
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SPEAKER_00: there's going to be less compensating involved for that immaturity.
12:31
SPEAKER_00: Um,
12:34
SPEAKER_00: But yeah, just to see it a little loosely too.
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SPEAKER_00: This is ongoing.
12:37
SPEAKER_00: We're not there yet.
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Having that faith that maturation is still unfolding and it's
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going to look
12:43
SPEAKER_00: different when it does is going to help.
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SPEAKER_00: That's what we're yearning for.
12:51
SPEAKER_00: But again, letting go of that kind of mechanistic view of it.
12:59
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
13:00
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
13:01
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's helpful.
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SPEAKER_00: But the faith, you know, is what you always bring us back to.
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SPEAKER_00: And that this,
13:10
SPEAKER_00: you know,
13:10
the Neufeld model invites us to relax into and surrender into
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is that it's never
13:17
SPEAKER_00: too late.
13:18
SPEAKER_00: It's because it's not in ages and stages.
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SPEAKER_00: It's not insert age 25 output is integrated prefrontal cortex,
13:27
SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: like a like a mathematic equation.
13:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
13:34
It means that even at 25,
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if a person is still immature,
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they still have hope.
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SPEAKER_00: You know, there's still the ability to grow up.
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There's going to be life experiences or internal processes that
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can still help us
13:54
SPEAKER_00: to meet a fuller potential over time.
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And our role as their best bet is in providing the conditions
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that allow for this maturity.
14:06
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
14:07
SPEAKER_02: Yep.
14:08
SPEAKER_02: Thanks for that clarification and that addition to that idea.
14:14
SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
14:15
SPEAKER_00: Woo-hoo.
14:18
SPEAKER_00: Today's all about addition.
14:22
SPEAKER_00: Adding in instead of cutting out.
14:25
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
14:27
SPEAKER_00: So now that we've sort of set the stage,
14:28
SPEAKER_00: I thought it might be helpful to sort of...
14:30
SPEAKER_00: Last week we started by talking about fruits of the integrative process.
14:37
SPEAKER_00: And so I thought maybe we could talk a little this week about deficits.
14:41
SPEAKER_00: So what we might observe or see when a child or an adult has not...
14:54
SPEAKER_00: has not been able to mix, right?
14:55
Has not developed,
14:57
or again,
14:57
this means and end thing can be kind of confusing.
15:01
SPEAKER_00: It's like the integrative process is the means to this end of,
15:06
SPEAKER_00: of being able to have,
15:09
SPEAKER_00: to be what Neufeld would call a social being.
15:12
So being able to be a separate individual while also being
15:15
together with others.
15:17
SPEAKER_00: That's kind of that high level of,
15:20
SPEAKER_00: fruit is to be able to see on the one hand and on the other hand.
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SPEAKER_00: So if a child or an adult doesn't have this means or this end yet,
15:32
SPEAKER_00: and I will say yet,
15:34
what we might see would be what he would call untempered in
15:42
experience and emotion.
15:44
SPEAKER_00: Well, what does that mean?
15:45
SPEAKER_00: And I forgive me,
15:48
SPEAKER_00: I cannot remember how much we went into this word,
15:50
SPEAKER_00: like the tempering last time.
15:55
SPEAKER_00: But essentially, it's the ability to mix one thing with another.
16:02
SPEAKER_00: So on temper would mean this idea of one at a time.
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SPEAKER_00: I can only have one perspective at a time,
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SPEAKER_00: consider one thing at a time,
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SPEAKER_00: feel one thing at a time.
16:15
So there's,
16:16
um,
16:17
there's nothing that's gonna like be on the other hand for me.
16:22
We don't see that internal conflict of emotion or thoughts or
16:26
perspective.
16:30
SPEAKER_02: I'm,
16:32
SPEAKER_02: What's coming to mind is temper as a word in the lexicon of art.
16:44
SPEAKER_02: Right?
16:45
SPEAKER_02: Don't you temper your paint?
16:48
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
16:50
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
16:50
SPEAKER_02: Which means to...
16:52
SPEAKER_00: And it's also, go ahead, what does it mean?
16:55
SPEAKER_02: Well,
16:56
SPEAKER_02: it's been a long time since I've taken any art classes,
16:58
SPEAKER_02: so I hope I don't offend any artists out there.
17:02
SPEAKER_02: But I'm guessing it's,
17:03
SPEAKER_02: you know,
17:03
SPEAKER_02: you can take a pure hue,
17:05
SPEAKER_02: you know,
17:07
SPEAKER_02: or that,
17:09
SPEAKER_02: you've talked about purity of emotion,
17:11
SPEAKER_02: so I'm thinking those pure hues,
17:13
SPEAKER_02: like red and yellow and blue,
17:16
SPEAKER_02: and you can temper them and turn them into a shade of blue.
17:21
SPEAKER_02: Or a tint.
17:23
But I'm also wondering if that's a little bit different idea
17:27
just because you are
17:28
SPEAKER_02: creating something new that is its own new color.
17:39
SPEAKER_00: Well,
17:39
when we get a little further on and we start to talk about the
17:44
adding in the mixing
17:45
SPEAKER_00: bowl,
17:47
SPEAKER_00: let's say of alarm and desire,
17:51
SPEAKER_00: the new thing is courage.
17:53
SPEAKER_00: Ah, right.
17:55
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
17:56
SPEAKER_00: The ability to act despite your fear.
18:00
SPEAKER_00: So I think it is a good metaphor.
18:03
SPEAKER_00: Maybe not perfect, but, you know, we're not being literal here, right?
18:06
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
18:08
SPEAKER_00: You know, the other one that comes to mind is...
18:14
SPEAKER_00: There's a, I don't know what you would even call it, Bach, the composer.
18:22
SPEAKER_00: One of his master works is called the Well-Tempered Clavier.
18:26
SPEAKER_00: And my son's piano teacher had him learn one of the,
18:31
SPEAKER_00: I would say,
18:31
SPEAKER_00: the least complex pieces of this work of Bach's.
18:36
But he explained it to him,
18:38
and I was in his lesson,
18:39
and he said,
18:40
what does well-tempered mean?
18:42
SPEAKER_00: This is the fact that if you actually tuned all the strings of,
18:46
SPEAKER_00: let's say,
18:46
SPEAKER_00: a harp,
18:46
SPEAKER_00: a piano,
18:48
SPEAKER_00: any of these,
18:48
SPEAKER_00: and this is where I'm going to,
18:51
SPEAKER_00: whatever a clavier is,
18:52
SPEAKER_00: it's that same kind of instrument,
18:54
SPEAKER_00: right?
18:55
SPEAKER_00: That's tuned the way a piano is tuned.
18:57
SPEAKER_00: If you tuned it exact, it would sound out of tune.
19:02
So it actually has to always be slightly out of tune to create
19:09
the resonance,
19:10
SPEAKER_00: to create the beauty of the sound.
19:14
So it is like everything is just slightly mixed,
19:19
so to say,
19:19
instead of that pure.
19:23
SPEAKER_00: That's how I interpreted that, but it struck me.
19:25
SPEAKER_00: This was a couple of months ago.
19:28
SPEAKER_00: I was like, oh my gosh, another example of tempering.
19:31
SPEAKER_00: Another example of the amazingness of this design of our world.
19:42
SPEAKER_00: So exactly, being untempered.
19:44
SPEAKER_00: Just to give another example,
19:47
SPEAKER_00: because I was just talking about it in our intro here,
19:51
SPEAKER_00: one of the things my son has been saying the past couple of days is,
19:55
SPEAKER_00: is I'm so happy it's summer.
19:57
SPEAKER_00: I'm just so happy.
19:57
SPEAKER_00: I love summer break.
19:58
SPEAKER_00: I love summer break.
20:00
And then he'll say,
20:02
but I don't love it 100% this year because I really liked
20:06
school.
20:08
SPEAKER_00: Ah, on the one hand.
20:09
SPEAKER_00: He's in that tempering right now.
20:11
Yeah,
20:11
he's in that tempering where,
20:14
you know,
20:15
one moment he's like,
20:17
yeah,
20:17
I love summer break.
20:18
SPEAKER_00: And then the next moment he's like, but it's not the same this year.
20:21
SPEAKER_00: Hmm.
20:24
SPEAKER_00: So I just take it in stride and it's like, yay, yay, yay, yay.
20:32
SPEAKER_00: Even, yeah.
20:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
20:34
But even though keeping in mind that part of this developmental
20:39
piece that you're
20:39
talking about with adolescents is that they will lose the
20:42
integrative for a period
20:45
SPEAKER_00: for emerging again,
20:47
SPEAKER_00: more integrated as they cross that bridge into adulthood.
20:52
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
20:53
SPEAKER_00: So I'm holding my breath like it's here.
20:55
SPEAKER_00: I'm so grateful.
20:58
SPEAKER_00: And there will be a period where it gets harder again.
21:01
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
21:02
SPEAKER_02: Yes, indeed.
21:03
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
21:06
SPEAKER_00: So, okay, more deficits.
21:09
SPEAKER_00: This idea of the tendency to displace emotion or swing the pendulum.
21:16
SPEAKER_00: So be like 100% one way and then 100% the other way.
21:25
and one example of this and maybe you have some but one example
21:29
is like the person
21:31
who's in the domestic violence relationship and they're like
21:35
counting on this
21:36
friend to get them out and they make this huge leap to like
21:41
leave the abusive
21:42
partner and then like 72 hours later they're like back in the
21:45
relationship um
21:49
SPEAKER_00: 100% loyal to that partner and like push you out.
21:53
SPEAKER_00: The friend who helped them is like, no, you don't understand.
21:57
SPEAKER_00: I love, I love him.
21:59
SPEAKER_00: I'm never going to leave him, you know?
22:01
Um,
22:01
so kind of that,
22:02
those big swings of the pendulum,
22:06
um,
22:06
from one kind of extreme to the next.
22:09
SPEAKER_02: That sounds like adolescence.
22:12
SPEAKER_02: I mean, yeah, that kind of captures it.
22:15
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
22:16
SPEAKER_02: They're so unpredictable.
22:18
SPEAKER_02: One day they can be very loving and feel very connected.
22:22
SPEAKER_02: And the next day, you're the enemy.
22:25
SPEAKER_02: You are the cause of all their troubles.
22:31
SPEAKER_02: And it doesn't matter what you say or do.
22:34
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's interesting.
22:37
SPEAKER_02: And I think even among that, I can see my son doing...
22:43
SPEAKER_02: Hey,
22:43
SPEAKER_02: Stoic Mom here,
22:44
breaking in as I'm editing this because I realized there was an
22:48
interruption in the
22:49
SPEAKER_02: flow that might be a little confusing.
22:51
We were having some troubles with our recording software the
22:55
day that we made this episode.
22:58
So what I'm talking about here are the days when my son's
23:01
emotions are seemingly untempered.
23:06
SPEAKER_02: Back to the conversation.
23:07
SPEAKER_02: Either way is good.
23:11
SPEAKER_02: Well, and it's, it's interesting.
23:13
SPEAKER_02: Like some days he's just going to be there,
23:16
SPEAKER_02: you know,
23:17
SPEAKER_02: and some days I take it personally,
23:21
SPEAKER_02: but I notice if I can show up in a tempered way,
23:24
SPEAKER_02: um,
23:26
SPEAKER_02: make sure he's eaten,
23:29
SPEAKER_02: which is challenging because he's also really picky,
23:31
SPEAKER_02: ironically for such a big kid.
23:34
SPEAKER_02: Um,
23:36
But if I'm responding to him,
23:38
seriously,
23:39
in a tempered way,
23:40
typically that means humor.
23:41
SPEAKER_02: He's very responsive to humor.
23:43
If I can not let his mood penetrate me,
23:51
if I'm in that tempered space,
23:55
it goes okay.
23:57
But again,
23:57
it can be very unpredictable and challenging as a parent to
24:04
navigate that.
24:07
SPEAKER_02: And it's helpful, I think, in our letting go.
24:13
SPEAKER_02: You know?
24:16
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
24:17
SPEAKER_02: I know.
24:21
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
24:22
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
24:23
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
24:24
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
24:25
SPEAKER_00: And this is one of the key things,
24:27
and I hope we just keep coming back to it throughout our
24:30
conversation today and in
24:32
SPEAKER_00: the future,
24:34
SPEAKER_00: it was so helpful for me in preparing for today's discussion.
24:40
I feel like I had a light bulb go on that,
24:44
that hasn't gone on for me before.
24:48
And that is that this tool of like,
24:54
when I'm going to react to my child,
24:56
adding in,
24:58
adding in,
25:03
SPEAKER_00: and I think I do it,
25:05
SPEAKER_00: you know,
25:06
SPEAKER_00: when I'm at my best,
25:07
SPEAKER_00: I've already done this in the past,
25:08
SPEAKER_00: but I just had a,
25:10
SPEAKER_00: it just felt like an aha moment to me with this,
25:13
SPEAKER_00: what we've talked about before,
25:14
SPEAKER_00: which is not about imposing our will to cut out our impulses,
25:20
SPEAKER_00: but to add in.
25:23
SPEAKER_00: So when I'm going to react out of my frustration to my child,
25:28
SPEAKER_00: how can I add in,
25:29
SPEAKER_00: but I care about him.
25:32
SPEAKER_00: How can I add in,
25:34
SPEAKER_00: but he's hungry and this is how he acts when he's hungry.
25:38
SPEAKER_00: How can I add in, but I don't want to hurt his feelings.
25:43
How can I add these pieces in like,
25:46
but our relationship is more important,
25:48
but he's immature.
25:50
SPEAKER_00: He's just a kid.
25:51
You know,
25:52
there's so many little add ins that,
25:55
that,
25:56
that I can,
25:57
I can do.
25:58
And,
25:59
and,
25:59
and,
25:59
and,
26:00
and I just want people to hear this just as a place of like,
26:03
SPEAKER_00: deep, deep, deep compassion and, and patience for ourselves.
26:07
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
26:08
SPEAKER_00: Like I've been taking in this material for so many years.
26:14
And in the past 12 hours,
26:16
I had this aha moment where I'm like,
26:19
Oh,
26:21
I,
26:21
I still try.
26:22
SPEAKER_00: I'm still in that dance of like imposing my will to control my,
26:27
SPEAKER_00: to try to make myself cut it out.
26:29
SPEAKER_01: Mm hmm.
26:31
And what a gift that I just got from like preparing for today
26:34
where I could say,
26:36
SPEAKER_00: oh,
26:38
SPEAKER_00: I got to shift my focus on adding in.
26:40
SPEAKER_00: I got to try to remember this.
26:42
SPEAKER_00: I got to try to practice this.
26:45
SPEAKER_00: That's going to help me a lot.
26:48
SPEAKER_00: You know?
26:49
SPEAKER_01: Mm hmm.
26:49
SPEAKER_01: Mm hmm.
26:50
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I can relate to that very much.
26:52
SPEAKER_01: Mm hmm.
26:54
SPEAKER_02: The continued aha moments.
26:57
SPEAKER_02: And how helpful these little tidbits can be.
27:02
SPEAKER_02: You know, they're powerful.
27:05
And it takes a lot of exposure to them to be able to put them
27:12
into practice.
27:14
SPEAKER_02: Or even to have those ahas,
27:16
SPEAKER_02: you know,
27:17
SPEAKER_02: I think,
27:17
SPEAKER_02: where it's like,
27:18
SPEAKER_02: oh,
27:18
SPEAKER_02: oh,
27:21
SPEAKER_02: suddenly this makes more sense to me.
27:23
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
27:24
Okay.
27:26
Yeah,
27:26
it's like I got a visual for it,
27:28
you know,
27:28
and that just helped me to integrate it more.
27:32
SPEAKER_00: Where's my focus?
27:34
SPEAKER_00: Is it on my impulse or is my focus on, like, on the other hand?
27:40
SPEAKER_00: You know, that's kind of what clicked for me in a way it hasn't before.
27:44
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
27:47
SPEAKER_00: For what that's worth to folks.
27:50
SPEAKER_02: I do think that's helpful.
27:53
SPEAKER_02: I think there's so much,
27:55
SPEAKER_02: you know,
27:55
SPEAKER_02: little sidebar here,
27:56
SPEAKER_02: but there's so much content,
28:00
SPEAKER_02: you know,
28:00
SPEAKER_02: and we can...
28:02
SPEAKER_02: we can be plugged in all the time and it, and to discern, right.
28:09
SPEAKER_02: And to integrate, that's a perfect word for it.
28:11
SPEAKER_02: You know,
28:12
SPEAKER_02: some of this stuff that we're learning,
28:13
SPEAKER_02: it,
28:14
SPEAKER_02: it does take some intention and,
28:18
SPEAKER_02: and definitely repetition,
28:20
SPEAKER_02: you know,
28:21
SPEAKER_02: so.
28:21
SPEAKER_02: Yep.
28:22
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
28:23
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
28:25
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
28:27
SPEAKER_00: So just to kind of return to some of these deficits,
28:31
SPEAKER_00: a couple more,
28:33
a deficit of the non-integrative would be unable to consider
28:39
context or more than
28:41
SPEAKER_00: one dimension at a time.
28:45
SPEAKER_00: And I think this, I'm imagining parents are going to relate to this one.
28:51
SPEAKER_00: This connects right out of that.
28:54
unable to get like internally click with the idea of work that
29:04
or sacrifice towards
29:06
SPEAKER_00: a goal so I'm going to you know we talked about this last episode delay
29:13
gratification if I invest my time and energy in this project
29:19
over time it's going
29:20
SPEAKER_00: to produce an outcome
29:24
SPEAKER_00: So that requires two dimensionality.
29:27
SPEAKER_00: It requires a both on the one hand and on the other hand.
29:32
SPEAKER_00: If we're only in one thing at a time, we can't get that.
29:41
Maybe I'm only in one thing right now because I'm not sure I'm
29:43
getting that.
29:45
SPEAKER_02: I want to understand what you're saying.
29:48
So you started out by saying this internal click or sense of
29:53
the idea of work.
29:55
SPEAKER_02: Or is it the idea, like the value of work?
29:59
SPEAKER_00: So thank you for asking that question.
30:01
In the Neufeld world,
30:06
he lays out two constructs and he calls them work mode.
30:12
SPEAKER_00: Well, maybe there's more than two.
30:14
SPEAKER_00: There's work mode and
30:15
SPEAKER_00: There's play mode and then there's this rest,
30:18
SPEAKER_00: you know,
30:18
SPEAKER_00: which is,
30:19
SPEAKER_00: you know,
30:20
SPEAKER_00: rest and play are,
30:21
SPEAKER_00: have a lot of similarities.
30:23
SPEAKER_00: Work, what he calls the work mode is outcome based.
30:31
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
30:31
So just the idea that you're going to go,
30:33
you know,
30:34
like that I am motivated.
30:39
SPEAKER_00: I have that like intrinsic motivation that,
30:43
SPEAKER_00: to do a chore, to do homework, to study for a test.
30:50
Like all of that would be considered work mode because you're
30:55
investing in
30:57
SPEAKER_00: performance for an outcome.
30:59
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
31:01
SPEAKER_00: It's for real.
31:02
SPEAKER_00: Like play is not for real.
31:04
You can pretend to be working while you play,
31:07
but play is that bubble of like,
31:10
SPEAKER_00: this is not for real.
31:11
SPEAKER_00: I get to explore.
31:12
SPEAKER_00: I get to express.
31:13
SPEAKER_00: There's no consequence.
31:15
SPEAKER_00: Where in work mode, there are consequences.
31:20
SPEAKER_00: There are outcomes.
31:22
SPEAKER_00: You have to perform.
31:23
SPEAKER_00: So
31:26
Even like thinking about children's sports,
31:29
I'm very deeply in that world right now.
31:31
SPEAKER_00: We just finished baseball season.
31:32
SPEAKER_00: I've talked about it a lot in the podcast.
31:34
But it's this importance of being able to let children just
31:38
play where they're not
31:39
SPEAKER_00: going to perform for an outcome.
31:41
SPEAKER_00: Whereas when you're in that baseball game, that's work mode.
31:44
SPEAKER_00: You're performing for an outcome.
31:45
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
31:48
So for the non-integrative,
31:50
you know,
31:51
it's like you can kind of script work.
31:55
SPEAKER_00: You can like,
31:56
SPEAKER_00: you know,
31:56
SPEAKER_00: I help my son remember the chores he has to do because,
31:59
SPEAKER_00: you know,
32:00
SPEAKER_00: it doesn't come to him without some structure and some guidance.
32:07
SPEAKER_00: But like, it's kind of like the child won't get the reward aspect.
32:13
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
32:17
SPEAKER_00: if I do this, I get this.
32:20
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
32:22
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
32:24
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
32:24
SPEAKER_00: It's, it's getting one at a time.
32:27
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
32:28
SPEAKER_02: Justin one at a time.
32:30
SPEAKER_02: So you're also saying you can integrate work and play.
32:34
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
32:34
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
32:35
Well,
32:36
well,
32:36
no,
32:36
like,
32:37
um,
32:39
in order to get this concept of working towards an outcome,
32:44
um,
32:45
SPEAKER_00: You have to be able to have the present and the future.
32:49
SPEAKER_00: Got it.
32:51
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
32:52
SPEAKER_02: So that's the integration.
32:53
SPEAKER_02: It's the present.
32:54
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
32:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
32:57
Because you have to do something you might not want to do in
33:01
order to get the outcome.
33:02
SPEAKER_02: You have to endure something.
33:04
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
33:06
SPEAKER_02: To get to the end goal.
33:08
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
33:09
SPEAKER_00: There's two different pieces to that.
33:13
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
33:13
SPEAKER_02: And the two different pieces are the present and the future.
33:16
SPEAKER_02: Is that one way to think about it?
33:21
SPEAKER_00: That's how I'm trying to explain it.
33:23
SPEAKER_00: Just as me, you know.
33:25
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
33:29
SPEAKER_00: If you're just in that untempered state, you can't see both.
33:37
SPEAKER_00: You can't see the future.
33:38
SPEAKER_02: You can't see the reward anymore.
33:41
SPEAKER_00: Right.
33:42
Or maybe you just see the reward,
33:43
but you can't do the thing you need to do to get there.
33:47
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
33:49
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
33:49
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
33:52
SPEAKER_02: Do you know the marshmallow test?
33:55
SPEAKER_02: No.
33:55
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
33:59
SPEAKER_02: You can find it online, right?
34:00
There are these videos of it where they tested these
34:03
four-year-old kids,
34:04
four,
34:05
right?
34:07
SPEAKER_02: They put a marshmallow in front of them.
34:10
SPEAKER_02: And say, you can eat this marshmallow now.
34:13
SPEAKER_02: Or if you wait 10 minutes, you'll get a second marshmallow.
34:17
SPEAKER_02: Right?
34:18
SPEAKER_02: Don't eat the marshmallow for 10 minutes.
34:20
SPEAKER_02: You get two marshmallows.
34:21
SPEAKER_02: Right?
34:23
SPEAKER_02: And it's amusing,
34:25
SPEAKER_02: right,
34:26
SPEAKER_02: to watch the video,
34:27
SPEAKER_02: watch them,
34:27
SPEAKER_02: like,
34:27
SPEAKER_02: lick the marshmallow because there's cameras and stuff on them.
34:32
Others who,
34:33
as soon as the adult leaves the room,
34:34
the child pops the marshmallow in their mouth.
34:36
SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
34:36
SPEAKER_02: Like, there's all these different responses to it.
34:42
SPEAKER_02: But then they track these kids over the long term,
34:45
SPEAKER_02: right,
34:45
SPEAKER_02: to see how it impacted them in the future.
34:48
SPEAKER_02: Right.
34:49
And it was interesting that the capacity for delayed
34:51
gratification at already four
34:53
SPEAKER_02: years old,
34:54
which is interesting because I'm thinking of what we'd already
34:56
talked about when it
34:56
SPEAKER_02: comes to that preschool age and expecting maturity.
35:01
SPEAKER_02: But would that fall into this in some ways?
35:07
SPEAKER_02: I mean, that's certainly delayed gratification.
35:09
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
35:09
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
35:10
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
35:10
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
35:11
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
35:12
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
35:13
SPEAKER_00: Impulse control.
35:15
SPEAKER_00: You know,
35:15
the tempering effect is what allows us to temper those impulses
35:21
to just eat the
35:22
SPEAKER_00: marshmallow,
35:23
SPEAKER_00: you know.
35:25
SPEAKER_02: I guess the long term outcomes.
35:27
SPEAKER_00: Integrative.
35:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
35:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
35:29
SPEAKER_02: you know,
35:29
SPEAKER_02: are,
35:31
SPEAKER_02: make me curious,
35:32
SPEAKER_02: you know,
35:33
SPEAKER_02: according to this idea that it's never too late,
35:35
SPEAKER_02: it's unfolding.
35:36
SPEAKER_02: And yet,
35:37
SPEAKER_02: you know,
35:38
SPEAKER_02: there were these,
35:39
I guess I have to be curious about the context and the other
35:42
environmental factors.
35:44
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
35:45
SPEAKER_02: Right.
35:45
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
35:47
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
35:47
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
35:48
SPEAKER_00: Good questions.
35:50
SPEAKER_00: Good questions.
35:51
SPEAKER_00: Um,
35:55
So I'm going to kind of zip through these last deficits and
35:58
then...
35:58
Good luck with that.
35:59
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I know.
36:02
SPEAKER_00: I'll try to let you.
36:05
SPEAKER_02: I will try to control my impulse.
36:08
SPEAKER_00: They're all... We can talk about each of them for like a whole episode.
36:13
SPEAKER_00: So unable to operate out of two reference points simultaneously...
36:19
SPEAKER_00: And incapable of courage and patience.
36:23
SPEAKER_00: And we're going to get to that next.
36:25
SPEAKER_00: What is the mix required for these,
36:28
SPEAKER_00: what some may call virtues of courage and patience,
36:32
SPEAKER_00: the ability to forgive another person?
36:36
SPEAKER_00: Another one that's very helpful to me,
36:39
and I think applies directly to many of our conversations about
36:42
where we are in the
36:42
SPEAKER_00: culture war and these dynamics at play,
36:46
SPEAKER_00: is a non-integrative individual has no doubt.
36:53
SPEAKER_00: There is just certainty.
36:55
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
36:58
SPEAKER_00: So this is so unsettling to come to grips with because,
37:04
SPEAKER_00: my goodness,
37:05
SPEAKER_00: when you're around a person who is certain about something,
37:09
SPEAKER_00: that's very compelling.
37:12
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I am easily persuaded, let's just say, by certainty.
37:21
SPEAKER_00: And and whether it's politicians or,
37:23
SPEAKER_00: you know,
37:23
SPEAKER_00: the so many people on the Internet out there with certainty,
37:28
SPEAKER_00: certainty,
37:29
SPEAKER_00: certainty,
37:29
SPEAKER_00: certainty,
37:30
SPEAKER_00: black,
37:30
SPEAKER_00: white.
37:31
Especially when it's somebody that you respect and see as very
37:35
intelligent.
37:38
What Neufeld says is that I can't remember the exact quote,
37:41
but it was so helpful to me.
37:43
It's like it's it's not intrinsic to a religion or ideology to
37:47
be dogmatic.
37:48
SPEAKER_00: It's about the person.
37:51
SPEAKER_00: Are they integrative or not?
37:54
SPEAKER_00: In the way that they are operating with that religion or that ideology.
38:02
SPEAKER_02: Oh, I'm sorry.
38:04
SPEAKER_02: I do need to interject something.
38:07
Just because this is also taking me quickly back to the
38:11
conversation that...
38:13
SPEAKER_02: either I had or that I listened to Patrick Ryan have with Lisa Marciano.
38:16
SPEAKER_02: So Patrick Ryan is a cult mediation expert.
38:23
SPEAKER_02: And he has,
38:23
SPEAKER_02: I think,
38:25
changed his own very certain language and does not like to talk
38:30
about cults.
38:31
SPEAKER_02: He talks about groups.
38:33
SPEAKER_02: What is cultish, right, would be the relationship.
38:39
SPEAKER_02: Does somebody have a cultic relationship with the group?
38:44
SPEAKER_02: Right?
38:45
Because you can be part of a belief system and not have that
38:48
cultic relationship,
38:50
SPEAKER_02: which that's what I'm hearing you describe is that rigidity,
38:53
SPEAKER_02: right?
38:53
SPEAKER_02: That dogmatic certainty that doesn't allow for any nuance.
39:02
That is so helpful to hear you say,
39:04
and it resonates so deeply with me from my own experience.
39:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
39:08
It was very helpful for me to,
39:11
to integrate,
39:14
right,
39:15
that way of thinking about
39:19
SPEAKER_02: groups and cults and relationships.
39:22
SPEAKER_00: Yep, exactly.
39:24
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
39:27
SPEAKER_00: The last deficit I want to mention,
39:29
SPEAKER_00: because I think it's really important,
39:31
SPEAKER_00: especially for parents,
39:34
is that a deficit of the non-integrative is that knowledge does
39:43
not result in
39:44
SPEAKER_00: action or the best intentions of
39:49
SPEAKER_00: So what essentially I'm saying there,
39:51
SPEAKER_00: and this is just so important,
39:56
just because a child or an immature adult knows better doesn't
40:01
mean they are
40:02
SPEAKER_00: capable of doing,
40:05
SPEAKER_00: acting on that knowledge.
40:08
SPEAKER_00: And even if they have the best intentions,
40:12
SPEAKER_00: It doesn't mean that they can carry them out.
40:23
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
40:24
SPEAKER_02: Well, and I think it... I see this among many adults.
40:31
SPEAKER_02: How many times do we hear ourselves say, I knew better?
40:35
SPEAKER_02: Why did I do that thing?
40:36
SPEAKER_02: I knew better.
40:37
SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
40:41
SPEAKER_00: And really why I feel so, my heart just aches with this one.
40:47
And with all of this content in general is that this is the
40:50
insight that can bring
40:52
SPEAKER_00: us to a place where we can stop seeing our child as being willful.
40:59
SPEAKER_00: You know, like doing things on purpose.
41:02
SPEAKER_00: Right.
41:03
SPEAKER_00: They never do things on purpose.
41:04
SPEAKER_00: Right.
41:06
SPEAKER_00: But it's,
41:06
SPEAKER_00: again,
41:07
SPEAKER_00: having that,
41:08
SPEAKER_00: extending our patience and seeing this is because they are immature.
41:14
SPEAKER_00: And that's not a pathology.
41:16
SPEAKER_00: It's just a current state of being,
41:19
SPEAKER_00: hopefully temporary,
41:21
SPEAKER_00: or comes back and forth at moments when we are engaged in something,
41:26
SPEAKER_00: a big emotion,
41:27
SPEAKER_00: and we lose that tempering effect.
41:30
SPEAKER_00: You know, I'm going to act less mature, too, in those moments.
41:34
SPEAKER_00: And I talk about that all the time.
41:38
SPEAKER_00: How can I remember this?
41:40
SPEAKER_00: How can I remember this?
41:43
SPEAKER_00: So that I'm not,
41:44
SPEAKER_00: again,
41:45
SPEAKER_00: taking things personally,
41:47
SPEAKER_00: reacting to my child in a way that's going to shame them,
41:49
punishing them for things that they had the best intentions
41:53
around but just
41:53
SPEAKER_00: couldn't follow through.
41:56
SPEAKER_00: You know,
41:56
this is where my heart just aches for children and for us as
42:02
parents who are trying
42:03
SPEAKER_00: to do our best.
42:06
SPEAKER_00: And the insight to me is just so critical.
42:08
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
42:09
SPEAKER_02: It makes me ache a bit for the culture.
42:12
SPEAKER_02: And I want to reinforce what you said, that it's not a pathology.
42:20
SPEAKER_02: Not a pathology.
42:22
SPEAKER_02: What we're talking about here is maturity,
42:27
SPEAKER_02: which all humans are capable of if the right conditions exist.
42:33
And I think that shows,
42:36
too,
42:36
just how culturally those conditions are not present.
42:39
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
42:43
SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
42:44
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
42:48
SPEAKER_02: I just think of all the ways we have pathologized immaturity.
42:57
SPEAKER_00: Right, because we don't see it as that.
42:59
SPEAKER_00: You know, I don't think.
43:00
SPEAKER_00: I think we've called it by so many other names.
43:04
SPEAKER_00: And,
43:04
SPEAKER_00: you know,
43:04
SPEAKER_00: it makes sense because if we don't have the language,
43:07
SPEAKER_00: if we don't have this understanding,
43:08
SPEAKER_00: you know,
43:12
SPEAKER_00: we're going to try to explain these phenomenon and then,
43:15
SPEAKER_00: you know,
43:15
SPEAKER_00: the ways that we can.
43:17
SPEAKER_02: What's coming to mind is the DSM and how it has exploded in recent years.
43:23
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
43:23
SPEAKER_02: Uh-huh.
43:26
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
43:26
And Neufeld jokes about how a four year old would fit like the
43:30
diagnostic criteria
43:31
SPEAKER_00: for like 95 percent of the conditions in there because of the immaturity,
43:36
SPEAKER_00: because there's no impulse control.
43:38
SPEAKER_00: There's, you know, you know, you know.
43:44
SPEAKER_00: whatever,
43:44
SPEAKER_00: the defiant disorders,
43:46
SPEAKER_00: the attention deficit disorder,
43:47
SPEAKER_00: you know,
43:47
SPEAKER_00: you just name it and,
43:49
SPEAKER_00: like,
43:50
SPEAKER_00: preschoolers will check those boxes.
43:54
SPEAKER_00: You know?
43:54
SPEAKER_00: And he jokes, like, it's a good thing they don't have weapons.
43:57
SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
43:58
SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
43:59
SPEAKER_02: Like... Sorry, I was weird.
44:02
SPEAKER_02: I had a dream about a child with a weapon last night, but go ahead.
44:05
SPEAKER_00: Oh, goodness.
44:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
44:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
44:08
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
44:08
SPEAKER_00: You know, because we'd be in big trouble.
44:11
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
44:12
SPEAKER_00: So...
44:15
SPEAKER_00: So the tempering effect.
44:18
SPEAKER_00: So this,
44:19
SPEAKER_00: you know,
44:19
SPEAKER_00: we've kind of talked about here's our deficits,
44:22
SPEAKER_00: you know,
44:23
SPEAKER_00: what we can see when this integrative process is not there.
44:27
SPEAKER_00: And one thing that I wanted to speak to as a fruit,
44:33
SPEAKER_00: and I want to bring this and then kind of talk about some of these mixes.
44:39
SPEAKER_00: But one thing that I wanted to return to is
44:45
SPEAKER_00: One of the fruits of the integrative process,
44:47
SPEAKER_00: when we start to feel inner dissonance and we have an on the one hand,
44:52
SPEAKER_00: I am scared to go out at night.
44:56
SPEAKER_00: But on the other hand, I want to go see the fireflies.
44:59
SPEAKER_00: Let's say it's a firefly season here.
45:00
So,
45:01
you know,
45:03
when we start to have that contrast or that dissonance
45:06
internally,
45:08
SPEAKER_00: That is actually part of what opens the way for self-reflection.
45:15
SPEAKER_00: So this is where we start to see some of these pieces coming together,
45:19
SPEAKER_00: that emergent process,
45:21
SPEAKER_00: a sense of self,
45:23
SPEAKER_00: and how the integrative process is connected to it.
45:27
SPEAKER_00: It's a part, you know, there's a...
45:30
SPEAKER_00: They're two different layers, but they're operating together.
45:35
And the reason why I wanted to bring this up is because you and
45:38
I talk a lot about
45:40
SPEAKER_00: being aware of,
45:41
SPEAKER_00: you know,
45:42
SPEAKER_00: our emotions as parents,
45:43
SPEAKER_00: you know,
45:44
SPEAKER_00: as mothers like,
45:45
SPEAKER_00: oh,
45:45
SPEAKER_00: I'm frustrated.
45:47
I want to develop a relationship to it,
45:49
you know,
45:49
all these things super important.
45:51
it is also very important to understand that the integrative
45:57
process is what allows
45:58
SPEAKER_00: for that fruit of reflection to be possible.
46:06
SPEAKER_00: So when we're non-integrative,
46:08
SPEAKER_00: whether it's momentary,
46:09
SPEAKER_00: because our emotions are big and we lose our mix,
46:12
SPEAKER_00: or because we are yet to mature,
46:20
SPEAKER_00: We don't see our emotions as separate from ourselves necessarily.
46:24
SPEAKER_00: We are moved by them, but we can't reflect upon them.
46:30
It's like it takes that dissonance to open the way for even
46:34
that dissonance between
46:36
SPEAKER_00: me and my emotion,
46:38
SPEAKER_00: my feeling,
46:40
SPEAKER_00: versus it just being intrinsic to me.
46:43
SPEAKER_00: So it's kind of how we can move from like,
46:47
SPEAKER_00: I am mad to I feel mad or I,
46:51
SPEAKER_00: you know,
46:53
SPEAKER_00: I have frustration.
46:56
SPEAKER_00: Having an emotion or being moved by an emotion versus being that.
46:59
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
47:00
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
47:03
SPEAKER_02: It's the emotion driving you.
47:07
SPEAKER_02: And would that be purity of emotion when that's happening?
47:10
SPEAKER_02: I would imagine when an emotion takes the wheel.
47:15
SPEAKER_00: Often.
47:15
SPEAKER_00: Maybe not always because we have the capacity to be reflective.
47:22
So I think it's just coming back to the sense that even that
47:25
ability to reflect...
47:29
on our feelings have a relationship with them see them you know
47:35
from this kind of
47:37
separate perspective requires us to have you know this
47:43
integrative process can we
47:45
SPEAKER_00: talk about anger for a minute yeah okay
47:52
Because,
47:53
you know,
47:53
there's a lot of information about how important anger is.
47:56
SPEAKER_02: Yes, it is important, you know.
47:59
SPEAKER_02: And what's coming to mind as I'm listening to you,
48:01
SPEAKER_02: though,
48:01
is the damage that can be done in the purity of the emotion of
48:08
anger and how
48:10
SPEAKER_02: important it must be to temper that.
48:13
SPEAKER_02: That that's maybe when anger is more productive,
48:16
SPEAKER_02: as if we are able to temper it with something like caring,
48:23
SPEAKER_02: Is that the case?
48:25
SPEAKER_02: It's like.
48:29
SPEAKER_02: Yes, I'm just I hear anger often defended.
48:35
SPEAKER_02: Is that the right word?
48:39
And I do think there is a time and place for that where it's
48:42
important that we are
48:44
SPEAKER_02: consumed by anger in order to accomplish a need in the moment,
48:48
SPEAKER_02: usually a protective need,
48:49
SPEAKER_02: I would imagine.
48:54
And most of the time,
48:56
if it's not tempered,
48:58
it's destructive,
49:00
I would guess.
49:03
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
49:05
SPEAKER_00: I feel like that is such a huge, huge, huge...
49:09
SPEAKER_00: I will say just a couple things.
49:11
SPEAKER_00: One is through Neufeld's constructs, anger is a secondary emotion.
49:23
SPEAKER_00: Frustration being the primal.
49:25
SPEAKER_00: Something is not working that we care about.
49:29
SPEAKER_00: We're facing separation.
49:31
SPEAKER_00: Something's not working.
49:33
And it can be,
49:34
then it's like a secondary because it has cognitive attached to
49:37
it.
49:37
SPEAKER_00: It's not just that primal moving by frustration,
49:41
SPEAKER_00: but now we're giving an explanation to that frustration.
49:47
SPEAKER_00: Anger is what we can call it when we blame someone else.
49:51
SPEAKER_02: I was going to say, yes.
49:52
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
49:53
SPEAKER_00: It's that third off ramp.
49:55
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
49:57
And shame is when we think there's something intrinsically
50:01
wrong with ourselves.
50:03
SPEAKER_00: So he kind of has a whole construct for that as well.
50:08
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
50:08
SPEAKER_00: So that's one.
50:10
SPEAKER_00: Two is anger is still very important.
50:15
And we can't deny ourselves this reality of the experience that
50:21
anger,
50:22
when our dignity is,
50:25
You know,
50:25
it is an assault on our,
50:26
something has happened as an assault on our dignity.
50:30
SPEAKER_00: This is anger.
50:31
SPEAKER_00: Okay, this, so again, don't shut it down.
50:35
SPEAKER_00: Right.
50:36
SPEAKER_00: But what is the tempering effect in terms of,
50:42
SPEAKER_00: it can either be caring,
50:43
SPEAKER_00: it can be tempered by caring.
50:45
SPEAKER_00: I care about this person, so I am not going to react right now.
50:49
SPEAKER_00: I'm going to walk away.
50:50
SPEAKER_00: I'm going to take a walk.
50:51
SPEAKER_00: I'm going to go on a drive.
50:52
SPEAKER_00: I'm going to come back to it later.
50:57
SPEAKER_00: When I've calmed down,
51:00
forgiveness comes out of this when we mix that caring with the
51:05
frustration.
51:07
SPEAKER_00: I don't need to get even with you anymore.
51:11
SPEAKER_00: I can now forgive.
51:15
SPEAKER_00: I'm not going to forget.
51:16
SPEAKER_00: I know what you did.
51:18
SPEAKER_00: I don't have to forget it.
51:21
SPEAKER_00: I'm going to remember.
51:23
SPEAKER_00: But I no longer...
51:26
SPEAKER_00: need to get even because I care.
51:30
And alarm can also play a tempering effect on that frustration
51:33
that is coming out of anger.
51:35
Newfeld tells a story in one of his videos that he was an older
51:41
brother to a sister
51:43
and these young boys were looking up her skirt and he was like
51:45
a little kid and he
51:46
was going to beat them up and then it dawned on him that they
51:48
probably had a bunch
51:49
SPEAKER_00: of older brothers.
51:51
SPEAKER_00: So it was his alarm that tempered
51:56
SPEAKER_00: The impulse to attack them.
51:59
SPEAKER_00: It was, I'm going to get my butt kicked later on.
52:03
SPEAKER_00: So fear,
52:04
the alarm can also temper that frustration and hold us back
52:08
from just that eruption
52:11
SPEAKER_00: that can come.
52:13
SPEAKER_00: um, from frustration as anger, you know?
52:18
SPEAKER_00: Um, so yes, I would say yes, yes, yes.
52:23
SPEAKER_00: It is.
52:24
SPEAKER_00: We cannot deny.
52:25
SPEAKER_00: I don't want to tell anyone to deny was your dignity has impacted,
52:31
but it is the tempering effect of caring of alarm that can help
52:37
us move through
52:38
SPEAKER_00: that experience and
52:41
SPEAKER_00: Without causing greater repercussions.
52:44
SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
52:45
SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
52:47
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
52:48
SPEAKER_02: But it is accurate to see anger as part of that third off-ramp.
52:56
SPEAKER_00: What is the third off-ramp?
52:57
SPEAKER_00: Can you remind me?
52:58
SPEAKER_02: Oh, the aggression or the attacking energy.
53:02
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
53:03
SPEAKER_02: Attack.
53:03
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
53:09
SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes, yes, yes.
53:12
SPEAKER_00: I think it's just what you do with it that would make the difference.
53:15
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
53:20
I have so many questions right now,
53:22
and I'm worried about taking us too far off topic.
53:24
SPEAKER_01: No, it's good.
53:25
SPEAKER_01: It's good, it's good.
53:26
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
53:29
Well,
53:29
I guess what's coming to mind,
53:30
I think I've always sort of judged that third off-ramp.
53:34
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
53:38
SPEAKER_02: And I'm starting to recognize the value.
53:40
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
53:44
You know,
53:44
and I'm having one of those click moments right now,
53:48
you know,
53:49
of,
53:49
okay,
53:51
okay.
53:52
I'm seeing scenarios where that is an appropriate off-ramp for
53:58
what is happening.
54:00
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
54:01
SPEAKER_02: Potentially.
54:02
SPEAKER_02: Actually, though,
54:05
SPEAKER_02: The barricade there,
54:07
SPEAKER_02: right,
54:07
SPEAKER_02: the potential block for exiting the experience of frustration,
54:11
SPEAKER_02: just quickly for,
54:13
SPEAKER_02: you know,
54:13
SPEAKER_02: listeners who might not know what I'm talking about here.
54:15
We're talking about the experience of frustration and being
54:17
moved by frustration
54:18
SPEAKER_02: and how that frustration has got to exit the system somehow.
54:25
SPEAKER_02: And one of those ways out is attacking energy.
54:31
SPEAKER_02: And what can...
54:33
prevent people from getting out there is the capacity for mixed
54:37
feelings.
54:40
SPEAKER_02: And so maybe, okay, okay, I'm talking myself through this.
54:45
SPEAKER_02: So the mixed feelings, instead of actually attacking people,
54:56
Which we might need to do in a situation of like immediate
55:02
rescue,
55:03
right?
55:03
Somebody is actually in danger and I need this anger to attack
55:07
and stop this from happening.
55:09
But if I can use mixed feelings,
55:12
I can navigate this a little differently.
55:14
SPEAKER_02: I won't attack.
55:16
SPEAKER_02: I will respond differently with a more integrated approach.
55:22
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
55:24
SPEAKER_02: That has been tempered.
55:25
SPEAKER_02: I have tempered that anger with something.
55:28
SPEAKER_00: Right.
55:29
SPEAKER_00: I am so mad, but I care.
55:32
SPEAKER_00: So I'm going to walk away.
55:34
SPEAKER_00: Go chop wood.
55:36
SPEAKER_00: You know, like you might...
55:39
SPEAKER_00: You might still need to get that frustration out.
55:42
SPEAKER_02: And that would still be an attack, it sounds like to me.
55:44
SPEAKER_02: You're just not attacking the person.
55:47
SPEAKER_00: Correct.
55:48
And that's where we go back to we are moved and that emotion
55:54
needs to come out.
55:56
SPEAKER_00: Uh-huh.
56:00
SPEAKER_00: So it's not a stuffing down.
56:02
SPEAKER_00: It's right.
56:03
SPEAKER_00: It's a let me get this somewhere where it's not going to do harm.
56:12
SPEAKER_02: I guess I'm still stuck on this place of tempering and tempering anger.
56:18
SPEAKER_02: Right.
56:18
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
56:20
It is that a way that it can move out of the system is through
56:24
the tempering.
56:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
56:29
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
56:29
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
56:31
SPEAKER_02: Definitely.
56:32
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
56:37
And maybe that spins you around the traffic circle and puts you
56:40
out at change or at
56:42
SPEAKER_02: adaptation or something.
56:44
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, maybe you still need to have your tears.
56:48
SPEAKER_00: Or maybe you're just paralyzed.
56:50
SPEAKER_00: You know, you're pausing.
56:54
SPEAKER_00: Maybe that's a way to look at it.
56:57
SPEAKER_00: Mm hmm.
56:59
SPEAKER_00: Maybe it's a pause.
57:00
SPEAKER_00: That is what helps us to pause instead of just exploding.
57:05
SPEAKER_00: Mm hmm.
57:09
SPEAKER_00: I you know, it's but I care.
57:13
SPEAKER_00: But I fear, maybe it's the fear of God, okay?
57:16
SPEAKER_00: But I fear losing my relationship to my child.
57:21
SPEAKER_00: So I'm going to walk away and shut up, okay?
57:25
SPEAKER_00: And I'm going to get it out somewhere else.
57:28
SPEAKER_00: I'm going to take a pause.
57:30
SPEAKER_00: I'm going to come back to it tomorrow.
57:36
SPEAKER_00: You know, I'm going to go play racquetball in the gym.
57:38
SPEAKER_00: I'm going to go run.
57:39
SPEAKER_00: I'm going to scream into a pillow.
57:45
But I'm not going to just be untempered in my attacking impulse
57:48
towards the person I'm angry at.
57:52
If we think about anger as blame,
57:55
we are going to be angry at somebody,
57:57
okay?
57:58
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
57:58
SPEAKER_00: Or something.
57:59
SPEAKER_02: And we ourselves can be one of those things, yes.
58:04
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
58:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, that's the self-harm.
58:07
Yeah,
58:08
the self-berate,
58:08
you know,
58:09
whether it's verbal attack,
58:11
physical attack.
58:12
SPEAKER_00: Yes, we can turn the attack on ourselves.
58:16
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
58:17
SPEAKER_00: So I think that,
58:18
SPEAKER_00: you know,
58:19
SPEAKER_00: I could be a novice here,
58:20
SPEAKER_00: but I'm just like,
58:22
SPEAKER_00: I think for me,
58:23
SPEAKER_00: that tempering effect is like,
58:26
SPEAKER_00: don't harm.
58:28
SPEAKER_00: Walk away.
58:30
SPEAKER_00: Walk away.
58:33
SPEAKER_00: Process your emotion.
58:34
SPEAKER_00: Get it out some way else.
58:37
SPEAKER_00: And that,
58:38
SPEAKER_00: as the mature ones,
58:39
SPEAKER_00: theoretically with children,
58:41
our role is to help them get that frustration out in a way that
58:44
isn't hurting
58:45
SPEAKER_00: someone else.
58:46
SPEAKER_00: Right.
58:48
SPEAKER_00: And, oh gosh, we've got to do it for ourselves too.
58:50
SPEAKER_00: Whew, buddy.
58:51
SPEAKER_00: It's hard.
58:52
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
58:53
SPEAKER_02: Yes, yes.
58:56
SPEAKER_02: Especially when, like you said, our dignity feels...
59:02
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
59:05
SPEAKER_02: Her dignity is on the line.
59:08
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
59:10
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
59:12
SPEAKER_00: So many stories come to mind.
59:15
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
59:15
And I'm feeling the need to play with this a little bit more in
59:18
my mind and think
59:19
SPEAKER_02: about how it fits into that model,
59:24
SPEAKER_02: you know,
59:24
SPEAKER_02: and that visual aid of the traffic circle.
59:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
59:28
SPEAKER_00: Good.
59:29
SPEAKER_00: That would be helpful for me too.
59:32
SPEAKER_02: I'll do some of that.
59:33
SPEAKER_02: I, I'm, I know we're, wow, time went fast.
59:37
SPEAKER_02: Um,
59:42
SPEAKER_02: so what,
59:43
SPEAKER_02: can we quickly look at some impediments to the,
59:51
SPEAKER_02: to,
59:51
SPEAKER_02: uh,
59:52
SPEAKER_02: yeah,
59:52
SPEAKER_02: the integrative process?
59:55
SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes, absolutely.
59:57
SPEAKER_00: Um,
59:59
SPEAKER_00: Real quick, to get us there, I'm just going to say, again, a reminder...
1:00:07
SPEAKER_00: You know,
1:00:08
SPEAKER_00: we're talking about when we talk about the integrative process,
1:00:10
SPEAKER_00: we're talking about the ability to see on the one hand,
1:00:13
SPEAKER_00: on the other hand,
1:00:14
SPEAKER_00: perspectives,
1:00:15
SPEAKER_00: thoughts.
1:00:16
SPEAKER_00: But ultimately, this is about emotion, right?
1:00:19
SPEAKER_00: This is about emotion.
1:00:19
SPEAKER_00: And so the ability to mix.
1:00:23
SPEAKER_00: On the one hand, I feel this way.
1:00:24
SPEAKER_00: On the other hand, I feel this way.
1:00:27
SPEAKER_00: Just a quick reminder that emotion moves us.
1:00:31
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
1:00:32
SPEAKER_00: Especially these primal emotions.
1:00:34
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
1:00:35
SPEAKER_00: Um,
1:00:36
and therefore we have to be able to feel and express them in
1:00:41
order to later mix
1:00:43
SPEAKER_00: them one with the other.
1:00:45
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
1:00:45
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
1:00:46
And some of those mixes that we're not going to have time to go
1:00:49
deeply into today,
1:00:50
SPEAKER_00: but we talked about this mix of desire and alarm,
1:00:56
SPEAKER_00: which goes also along with the mix of alarm and caring.
1:01:01
And I just want to bring this here where this is this idea of
1:01:04
the dragon and the treasure.
1:01:08
SPEAKER_00: Anyone who listens to us who may also ever listen to Jordan Peterson,
1:01:11
SPEAKER_00: or we know this is a mythological theme,
1:01:14
SPEAKER_00: That you have to face the dragon in order to get to the treasure.
1:01:19
SPEAKER_00: So this is all about the integrative process that I can...
1:01:23
SPEAKER_00: have the fear,
1:01:25
but I also have the desire or I also care enough that I'm going
1:01:29
to meet that dragon
1:01:31
SPEAKER_00: and get to that treasure,
1:01:33
SPEAKER_00: right?
1:01:36
SPEAKER_00: We also,
1:01:36
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:01:37
SPEAKER_00: we've talked about this aggression piece that the mix,
1:01:40
SPEAKER_00: it's the mix of attack and caring that can temper that aggression and
1:01:47
SPEAKER_00: Or the mix of attack and alarm.
1:01:49
If I harm my child because I'm mad,
1:01:53
I could lose the relationship with them.
1:01:55
SPEAKER_00: You know, that's fear.
1:01:56
SPEAKER_00: So we care about our child.
1:01:58
SPEAKER_00: We're afraid of impacting, hurting them or hurting our relationship.
1:02:03
SPEAKER_00: So those are those tempering effects that can help us,
1:02:07
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:02:09
SPEAKER_00: temper that aggression or that impulse to attack.
1:02:13
So,
1:02:14
sorry,
1:02:14
I'm just like looking at my notes here so I don't forget
1:02:16
anything.
1:02:18
SPEAKER_00: So this is what we're talking about,
1:02:20
SPEAKER_00: that adding in,
1:02:21
but we have to be able to feel each of those emotions
1:02:24
separately in order to
1:02:26
SPEAKER_00: eventually mix them.
1:02:29
SPEAKER_00: So I had wanted to talk about caring,
1:02:32
SPEAKER_00: and maybe this is a good place to talk both about that and impediments.
1:02:37
SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
1:02:38
SPEAKER_00: Because caring plays a huge role in this mixing bowl.
1:02:45
SPEAKER_00: And tempering, it sounds like.
1:02:48
SPEAKER_00: Yes, exactly.
1:02:50
SPEAKER_00: So like,
1:02:51
SPEAKER_00: if I have an impulse to react to something,
1:02:54
SPEAKER_00: but I care about the impact I'm going to have...
1:02:57
SPEAKER_00: That's sort of the fruit,
1:02:59
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:02:59
SPEAKER_00: the paint color,
1:03:01
SPEAKER_00: the new paint color that emerges there is self-control.
1:03:05
SPEAKER_00: Okay?
1:03:08
SPEAKER_00: If I'm frustrated with my child, but I also care about them...
1:03:14
SPEAKER_00: The fruit of that mix is patience.
1:03:21
Again,
1:03:22
if I fear the dragon,
1:03:23
but I care about the treasure,
1:03:24
that's where courage can result.
1:03:28
SPEAKER_00: If I'm concerned about myself, but I care about another...
1:03:33
SPEAKER_00: That's where consideration comes from, okay?
1:03:37
If I have the impulse to get even,
1:03:39
but I still care,
1:03:41
that's where forgiveness is born out of.
1:03:46
SPEAKER_00: So one impediment,
1:03:48
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:03:49
SPEAKER_00: to start talking about the impediments really quickly,
1:03:51
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:03:53
SPEAKER_00: an impediment to being integrative could potentially just be
1:03:58
SPEAKER_00: You know,
1:03:59
SPEAKER_00: obviously,
1:03:59
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:04:00
SPEAKER_00: if we haven't,
1:04:01
SPEAKER_00: young children are just by nature not going to be integrative.
1:04:05
But if some of the other developmental processes haven't kind
1:04:08
of come along.
1:04:13
SPEAKER_00: So.
1:04:17
SPEAKER_00: One of the impediments is if we.
1:04:26
SPEAKER_00: let's say in the case of caring,
1:04:30
SPEAKER_00: in our culture,
1:04:31
we have sort of been just assimilated this idea of the use of
1:04:37
consequences,
1:04:39
SPEAKER_00: whether it's timeouts or taking things away.
1:04:45
SPEAKER_00: If you do this, then this will be taken away from you.
1:04:47
SPEAKER_00: If we do things that
1:04:57
SPEAKER_00: Use something a child cares about against them.
1:05:03
SPEAKER_00: That can be a wounding experience.
1:05:05
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
1:05:06
SPEAKER_00: That can be a wounding experience for the child.
1:05:09
Um,
1:05:09
it would certainly be wounding for an adult if our wife or
1:05:12
husband did that to us.
1:05:15
SPEAKER_00: Um...
1:05:17
SPEAKER_00: What can happen,
1:05:17
SPEAKER_00: especially not just for a sensitive child,
1:05:19
SPEAKER_00: for any child,
1:05:20
SPEAKER_00: but especially for a sensitive child,
1:05:23
SPEAKER_00: if that wounding becomes too much to bear,
1:05:25
SPEAKER_00: the defenses kick in and a child can be defended against caring.
1:05:34
SPEAKER_00: If that gets kind of locked in over any given period of time,
1:05:39
SPEAKER_00: that tempering effect is not going to be there.
1:05:46
And as I just listed these things,
1:05:47
boy,
1:05:48
is that sense of caring important.
1:05:51
SPEAKER_00: And it's not something that's taught again.
1:05:54
SPEAKER_00: This is what emerges out of our attachment.
1:05:59
SPEAKER_00: We care because we're attached.
1:06:03
But if we hit those arrows into the heart like that,
1:06:09
the heart is going to be shielded.
1:06:15
And I remember some of the Newfield Course encouraging us to be
1:06:24
the shield against
1:06:26
SPEAKER_02: the world's arrows.
1:06:28
SPEAKER_02: And so if we're the one who is wounding that heart,
1:06:32
SPEAKER_02: I can see how that would result in much defendedness.
1:06:38
SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
1:06:38
SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
1:06:41
SPEAKER_02: An inability to be vulnerable.
1:06:43
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, sorry.
1:06:44
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:06:45
SPEAKER_00: No, no, no, it's good.
1:06:46
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
1:06:48
SPEAKER_00: So,
1:06:49
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:06:49
some of those potential impediments would be that they become
1:06:53
defended against some
1:06:54
SPEAKER_00: of these vulnerable emotions.
1:06:57
Whether it's,
1:06:58
you know,
1:06:59
the caring,
1:07:00
children often get defended against alarm issues.
1:07:05
SPEAKER_00: They're no longer, so alarm as a primal emotion moves us to caution.
1:07:11
SPEAKER_00: That's how we're moved by alarm.
1:07:13
SPEAKER_00: If we're defended against alarm, we don't got any caution.
1:07:17
SPEAKER_00: We talk about impulsiveness.
1:07:23
SPEAKER_00: So, and we can also become defended against desire.
1:07:28
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, again...
1:07:32
SPEAKER_00: If we care about something,
1:07:34
SPEAKER_00: if we want something and we are wounded around it,
1:07:39
SPEAKER_00: we're going to,
1:07:39
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:07:40
the brain is going to kick in those defenses to protect us from
1:07:43
those vulnerable
1:07:43
SPEAKER_00: feelings.
1:07:47
When you say defended against desire,
1:07:50
I hear like an intolerance for disappointment.
1:07:54
SPEAKER_02: I'd rather not desire than experience disappointment.
1:07:58
SPEAKER_02: Correct.
1:07:59
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:08:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and it's not even conscious.
1:08:03
You know,
1:08:04
I mean,
1:08:05
perhaps some of us have that consciousness,
1:08:08
but it's not necessarily a given.
1:08:09
It might just be the protective mechanism being kicked in by
1:08:14
the brain to protect from wounding.
1:08:16
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
1:08:25
SPEAKER_00: So...
1:08:29
SPEAKER_00: You know, a couple other factors.
1:08:30
SPEAKER_00: So how do we want to wrap up?
1:08:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:08:32
SPEAKER_00: Sorry, go ahead.
1:08:33
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:08:34
SPEAKER_00: So just,
1:08:34
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:08:35
SPEAKER_00: a couple other factors that would,
1:08:38
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:08:39
SPEAKER_00: basically this results in a failure to experiencing the tempering.
1:08:43
If we don't have an emergent sense of self,
1:08:45
we have nothing to contrast ourselves with.
1:08:50
SPEAKER_00: If we don't have enough deep attachments,
1:08:53
SPEAKER_00: we're not going to develop that sense of,
1:08:56
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:08:56
SPEAKER_00: responsibility,
1:08:57
SPEAKER_00: of caring,
1:08:58
of wanting to be close that is needed for this tempering effect
1:09:02
to come into play.
1:09:06
And,
1:09:07
you know,
1:09:07
another big impediment would be this push for premature
1:09:11
socialization.
1:09:12
SPEAKER_00: So again,
1:09:12
SPEAKER_00: getting back to that kind of peer orientation from a very young age,
1:09:16
SPEAKER_00: be nice,
1:09:17
SPEAKER_00: fit in,
1:09:18
SPEAKER_00: don't do this,
1:09:19
SPEAKER_00: don't do that.
1:09:19
SPEAKER_00: You know,
1:09:20
SPEAKER_00: at that very young age where children aren't capable of it yet,
1:09:26
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:09:26
can lead a child instead of differentiating to just going
1:09:31
straight to further
1:09:32
SPEAKER_00: fusion.
1:09:33
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:09:36
SPEAKER_00: And,
1:09:37
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:09:39
SPEAKER_00: we could keep talking about this later,
1:09:41
SPEAKER_00: but those are just,
1:09:42
I wanted to lay some of them out there in terms of some of
1:09:46
those impediments.
1:09:51
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
1:09:56
SPEAKER_02: It's a hard place to end.
1:09:57
SPEAKER_02: I'm wondering, yes, how can we offer listeners something to
1:10:08
think about or practice or notice um that is helpful yeah yeah
1:10:25
i know that we
1:10:25
talked about this earlier in the episode but i think you know
1:10:30
one layer would be
1:10:34
you know how are you able to add in you know we talked about
1:10:39
this with me saying
1:10:40
that was like an aha moment for myself you know so maybe just
1:10:45
taking note over the
1:10:46
course of the week or the days ahead like when i move to react
1:10:52
to something whether
1:10:52
SPEAKER_00: it's my frustrate you know i'm frustrated or i'm alarmed um
1:10:59
SPEAKER_00: Is there an on the other hand?
1:11:02
Just trying to be aware of places where you can add in or where
1:11:06
you are already
1:11:08
SPEAKER_00: adding in in any given situation where you're kind of moved to react.
1:11:15
SPEAKER_00: And then to just start to practice this idea that
1:11:20
SPEAKER_00: that we can kind of read what's moving our child based on their,
1:11:25
SPEAKER_00: their actions,
1:11:27
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:11:27
SPEAKER_00: their,
1:11:29
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:11:30
SPEAKER_00: whether it's,
1:11:30
SPEAKER_00: we've talked a lot about the aggression aspect.
1:11:34
SPEAKER_00: Um,
1:11:34
SPEAKER_00: but do we see our child,
1:11:36
SPEAKER_00: um,
1:11:37
SPEAKER_00: where do we see caring,
1:11:38
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:11:39
SPEAKER_00: um,
1:11:40
where do we maybe see what would be called alarm as our child
1:11:45
being moved to
1:11:45
SPEAKER_00: caution and,
1:11:47
SPEAKER_00: You know, is our child being moved to care about something?
1:11:51
Do we see our child having it on the one hand and on the other
1:11:54
hand when they're
1:11:56
SPEAKER_00: well fed and well rested and,
1:11:58
SPEAKER_00: you know.
1:12:01
SPEAKER_00: But what Neufeld talks about is that you have to do one at a time.
1:12:05
SPEAKER_00: And so maybe just a final thought for parents would be,
1:12:09
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:12:10
SPEAKER_00: if you see your child in that purity and let's say it's aggression,
1:12:14
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:12:18
SPEAKER_00: or any of those emotions,
1:12:20
SPEAKER_00: when the emotion isn't so big,
1:12:24
SPEAKER_00: that's where you can work the on the other hand.
1:12:26
SPEAKER_00: Like, oh, I saw that you were really, really happy about this.
1:12:30
SPEAKER_00: Was there any part of you that kind of felt sad about it?
1:12:35
SPEAKER_00: I know you were really upset at your teacher or your friend.
1:12:41
SPEAKER_00: Do you also remember that you care about them?
1:12:45
SPEAKER_00: Not in the heat of the moment, but...
1:12:51
SPEAKER_00: But at a time when the sea has calmed,
1:12:54
SPEAKER_00: the storm has calmed,
1:12:55
SPEAKER_00: and you're able to kind of have a,
1:12:59
SPEAKER_00: it's not the heat,
1:13:00
SPEAKER_00: but it's kind of like where there's ability to have some reflection.
1:13:04
SPEAKER_00: You can kind of tease this out.
1:13:07
SPEAKER_00: Was there an on the other hand?
1:13:12
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
1:13:15
SPEAKER_02: And maybe, you know, starting with ourselves.
1:13:19
SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
1:13:20
SPEAKER_02: what you said in there.
1:13:21
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:13:21
SPEAKER_02: It's, it's often easier to see this in ourselves first.
1:13:26
SPEAKER_02: And so noticing where we're, like you said, where we're mixing.
1:13:28
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
1:13:32
SPEAKER_02: Or where we could even do a little more mixing.
1:13:35
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:13:37
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
1:13:38
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
1:13:44
SPEAKER_02: So we, what is our Q and a, um,
1:13:52
SPEAKER_00: Okay,
1:13:52
SPEAKER_00: listeners,
1:13:54
SPEAKER_00: this is the moment we've been waiting for,
1:13:56
SPEAKER_00: where we're going to invite all of you,
1:13:59
SPEAKER_00: those of you who are paid subscribers or who may consider becoming paid
1:14:03
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1:14:04
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1:14:09
SPEAKER_00: which we hope...
1:14:11
SPEAKER_00: And plan to offer as Q&A episodes.
1:14:15
SPEAKER_00: So in season one, we welcomed questions from the Stoic Mom community.
1:14:21
And for season two,
1:14:23
we are opening up a question submission to all listeners.
1:14:27
subscribers who are paid subscribers to the Attachment Matters
1:14:30
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1:14:31
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1:14:37
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1:14:41
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1:14:43
SPEAKER_00: episodes.
1:14:44
SPEAKER_00: As always, thank you so much and we'll talk to you soon.
1:14:47
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1:14:49
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1:14:52
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1:15:03
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1:15:04
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1:15:05
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1:15:08
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