Latest / Beyond Labels Premium / Episode #169: Joel Salatin’s Take on the USDA Secretary Pick: Will He Become an Advisor?

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Episode #169: Joel Salatin’s Take on the USDA Secretary Pick: Will He Become an Advisor? · Beyond Labels Premium

0:00
SPEAKER_01: Hello, welcome to another episode of Beyond Labels.
0:02
SPEAKER_01: I'm Dr.
0:03
SPEAKER_01: Cena McCullough, and I'm here with our favorite farmer, Joel Salatin.
0:07
SPEAKER_01: And today is a very special treat because, as you know, lots of great things are happening in food and health news with the recent election, and we're seeing who Trump is appointing to different positions.
0:20
SPEAKER_01: And Joel's been on a lot of different podcasts, like seven hours yesterday of podcasts.
0:25
SPEAKER_01: So he's had a lot of time to think about what's going on and about the whole political process in general.
0:32
SPEAKER_01: And so now he is going to enlighten us with some of these pontifications.
0:39
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
0:39
SPEAKER_00: Well, thanks.
0:40
SPEAKER_00: Thanks, Nina.
0:41
SPEAKER_00: And so, first of all, let I know that many of our listeners are aware that I got approached by a trans by the transition team to be in some sort of an advisory role uh in the in the new administration.
0:55
SPEAKER_00: Um that definitely I learned a lot about social media in that it blows it is it's like the remember when you were a kid you played the game gossip, you know, somebody whispered something, and it by the time it got to the end, you know, it was um, you know, uh Jer Jeremy likes money, and by the time it got to the end, Jeremy robbed five banks and went to prison.
1:15
SPEAKER_00: Um and that's a bit the way this was.
1:20
SPEAKER_00: Um and so so uh it did get you know elevated.
1:26
SPEAKER_00: And uh and so my and here's the thing.
1:28
SPEAKER_00: My name was one of who knows how many swirling in a pot.
1:33
SPEAKER_00: Uh just like just like when I when we found out that Thomas Massey had been contacted, uh Congressman Thomas Massey.
1:41
SPEAKER_00: I mean, he's for us, he's our I mean, he's our he's our hero, you know.
1:46
SPEAKER_00: He's the he's like the the the champion, you know, from everywhere.
1:49
SPEAKER_01: Um I love him.
1:51
SPEAKER_01: Yes, absolutely.
1:52
SPEAKER_01: His food independence doctrine, yes.
1:55
SPEAKER_00: He uh he he spoke at the Weston A.
1:57
SPEAKER_00: Price Foundation thing this year and just lit them up.
2:00
SPEAKER_00: Uh just he's he's just a wonderful guy.
2:03
SPEAKER_00: Anyway, um, but hit his was only one of 15 names uh in the pot.
2:10
SPEAKER_00: And and uh really only one of two that I would consider friendly to you know to to non-ke.
2:20
SPEAKER_00: I'm just gonna use non-chemical ag just for a for a broad brush here.
2:24
SPEAKER_00: Um for non-chemical ag and and for uh food freedom.
2:29
SPEAKER_00: Um so what you have here, I I said basically you've got two people that have vision and no money, and 13 that have money and no vision.
2:41
SPEAKER_00: And and and and unfortunately, in politics, everybody, I think we all understand this, often money kind of wins out over the no money and just vision.
2:53
SPEAKER_00: And so um uh uh so there there were some there were some terrible choices uh in the pot.
3:00
SPEAKER_00: One was um Zippy, the guy, uh he's the president of the American Farm Bureau Federation.
3:05
SPEAKER_00: Uh, you know, I can't think of an organization that has been on the other side of my whatever political interests all my life than the American Farm Bureau Federation.
3:18
SPEAKER_00: Uh they're basically a shill for conventional, you know, industrial ag.
3:22
SPEAKER_00: Uh there was uh there was a lady who her career was with Monsanto, she's still there.
3:28
SPEAKER_00: Um talk, you know, RFK talks about agency capture.
3:31
SPEAKER_00: That's a perfect example of a Monsanto employee going into the USDA uh as the secretary.
3:39
SPEAKER_00: That would have been um agency capture.
3:42
SPEAKER_00: Um another one was uh a career guy in uh in uh livestock pharmaceuticals with um Elanco, Eli Lilly.
3:51
SPEAKER_00: Uh, you know, that again, that would have been, you know, the fox guarding the hen house.
3:56
SPEAKER_00: So so yeah, there were some really bad ones.
3:58
SPEAKER_00: So the one that got picked was a lady named Brooke Rollins out of Texas.
4:04
SPEAKER_00: And uh I'm just gonna level with everybody.
4:08
SPEAKER_00: In my opinion, from what I've been able to find, I think that she is probably uh I think she's an agricultural lightweight, just because nobody seems to, you know, I mean, she was in 4H and FFA when she was in high school.
4:20
SPEAKER_00: That's nice.
4:21
SPEAKER_00: Grew up on a little family farm there in Texas, but she has not been in, she she has not been an ag policy.
4:28
SPEAKER_00: She's uh what what she's strong in, apparently, is is managing is managing uh an organization.
4:36
SPEAKER_00: And of course the USDA has a hundred thousand employees.
4:40
SPEAKER_00: It's a pretty big organization.
4:42
SPEAKER_00: Uh and and so um so many of us who were you know who were uh pushing for Massey to get in, um were disappointed, but it's not as bad as it could have been.
4:55
SPEAKER_00: And the fact that she is a bit of a, I'll call her an I'll just call her an ag lightweight, uh, because she is, that could, that could uh offer some opportunities for malleability that wouldn't be if it were some of these other more entrenched, you know, industrially entrenched folks.
5:13
SPEAKER_00: And um the way I see it, you know, Trump's team and and and and interestingly, this was the last this was the last cabinet level appointment, which means to me, I don't think it was it was put off to the last.
5:28
SPEAKER_00: I think it was one of the most difficult, it was the most one of the most contentious.
5:32
SPEAKER_00: Look, Trump owed a lot to RFK, so I think putting RFK in as health secretary, I mean, Trump almost promised that even before the election, uh, you know, when when when uh Bobby uh Kennedy came over to him.
5:46
SPEAKER_00: And so that was kind of a done deal.
5:47
SPEAKER_00: Well, that was a lightning rod.
5:49
SPEAKER_00: Here's the thing uh in politics and diplomatic circles, you can only have so many lightning rods.
5:57
SPEAKER_00: If you have too many, you you you you get derailed somewhere.
6:01
SPEAKER_00: I mean, Matt, um, so so to give you an example of one that went that was too much, Matt Gates.
6:08
SPEAKER_00: Uh, you know, he he he was too much.
6:10
SPEAKER_00: And he was the nominee for uh attorney general.
6:13
SPEAKER_00: And he lasted what, uh, like 36 hours and or 48 hours, and then he withdrew, and they put in uh Bondi, who um who is also a fire brand, but she's a woman, and she's not Matt Gates.
6:29
SPEAKER_00: And so you get you get this kind of sigh of relief among the you know the Mitch McConnells and that kind of that kind of uh group uh that that that she's um that she's acceptable, and so they so they they spent their um political equity vilifying Matt Gates.
6:54
SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, you you you can't you can't vilify everybody that comes along.
7:00
SPEAKER_00: And so they kind of they kind of expended their uh political equity uh vilifying Matt Gates.
7:06
SPEAKER_00: So when Bondi was put up, you know, it was kind of a uh okay, we well, we gotta, it's okay, we got we gotta take her.
7:13
SPEAKER_00: And so I think um I think that's what happened with the ag secretary, uh, that it was it was perhaps the most contentious.
7:22
SPEAKER_00: There were obviously people who wanted somebody who would work very closely with um RFK Jr.
7:28
SPEAKER_00: My big concern once I knew they passed over Massey was, well, I hope they don't get somebody in there to sabotage um to sabotage RFK Jr.
7:38
SPEAKER_00: on health.
7:39
SPEAKER_00: Uh I mean farming and farming and food are are kind of closely linked.
7:46
SPEAKER_00: And and so um so RFK Jr.
7:49
SPEAKER_00: and what he wants to do uh could easily be sabotaged by a a very you know industrially minded, chemically minded um USDA ag secretary.
8:00
SPEAKER_00: So um so you know I don't think Brooke Rollins is uh I mean she's uh for for me it's it's tepid.
8:08
SPEAKER_00: Okay, it's kind of tepid.
8:09
SPEAKER_00: It's it's all right, um I I can see uh all ways.
8:13
SPEAKER_00: So that's kind of where we are.
8:15
SPEAKER_00: Um so so what are we?
8:20
SPEAKER_01: Can I ask one question?
8:21
SPEAKER_01: Um so are you still being considered as an advisor?
8:27
SPEAKER_01: I have no idea.
8:28
SPEAKER_00: Oh, okay.
8:29
SPEAKER_00: I I have no idea.
8:30
SPEAKER_00: Nobody has contacted me, nobody has said anything.
8:34
SPEAKER_00: Uh I right now I'm assuming no.
8:38
SPEAKER_00: Uh so the nice thing about having no expectations is that you can't be disappointed.
8:45
SPEAKER_00: So so I I have I have zero expectations.
8:48
SPEAKER_00: Uh I will tell you that it was it was exciting to um to have a conversation at that level of of whatever of our of our nation.
9:02
SPEAKER_00: And so I don't, you know, I don't take it lightly.
9:06
SPEAKER_00: Um I yeah, I I I don't I don't have a clue what will be develop what we'll be developing.
9:14
SPEAKER_00: Um you know there are I I've heard everything from 5,000 to 10,000 uh names that Trump's team has to appoint.
9:26
SPEAKER_00: So these are appointed positions in the various levels.
9:30
SPEAKER_00: Cena, this is how big the federal government is.
9:32
SPEAKER_00: I mean, think about this.
9:33
SPEAKER_00: That the that the Trump and his team are going to appoint somewhere between five and ten thousand people um to these various positions.
9:42
SPEAKER_00: And and so if that's the number of appointments, think about the number of names that are getting floated around.
9:49
SPEAKER_00: I mean, if you if you have two or three names for every every spot, uh you know, you you're into the you know, the 50, 60,000 people that have to be talked about, vetted, discussed, and and bandied about behind closed doors.
10:04
SPEAKER_00: I can't imagine what those kind of discussions are like.
10:07
SPEAKER_00: Uh, but but you know that that that's that's where they are.
10:11
SPEAKER_00: So I I have no expectations, and I, you know, nobody nobody has said anything to me, and I I'm just gonna I'm just gonna go on with my thing and and um and and I will be very, very happy uh not to uh be involved.
10:25
SPEAKER_00: I'll just keep writing and doing my thing.
10:27
SPEAKER_01: So you've got plenty to keep you busy.
10:30
SPEAKER_01: Plenty of platforms and avenues to make change anyhow.
10:35
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, you know, you're doing great the way you're going.
10:37
SPEAKER_01: It it could, you know, there's pros and cons to each of them.
10:40
SPEAKER_01: You know, that kind of appointment could have also sidetracked what these other paths that you're on.
10:45
SPEAKER_01: And so there's always ups and downsides.
10:48
SPEAKER_01: So I think you're doing pretty good for yourself, Joel.
10:52
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
10:53
SPEAKER_00: Well, thanks.
10:54
SPEAKER_00: So uh so um yeah, but but it was a it was a pleasant actually kind of surprise to know that my name was bandied around in pretty high circles.
11:04
SPEAKER_00: I mean, because originally they asked to be to about Secretary of Agriculture, and uh, and I absolutely not.
11:10
SPEAKER_00: I said, I'm I'm not a bureaucrat, I do not want to move to Washington, I do not want to, you know, anything like that.
11:15
SPEAKER_00: So, so then you know, so then I down I downgraded it to something that was completely non-bureaucratic, something that I could do here from home and just maybe go to a few meetings a year, have some phone calls or whatever, you know, whatever, of course.
11:27
SPEAKER_00: I was I was so hoping that Massey would get in, but I I get this, and and frankly, um he's needed in Congress.
11:34
SPEAKER_00: And and with this, with this new change, uh with him holding his congressional seat, uh that's that bodes well to to his ongoing um not only the Prime Act that he has in, uh, but also the constitutional amendment that he has in.
11:51
SPEAKER_00: For uh uh a constitutional amendment which reads the right of the people to grow food and to, I'm reading this because I have it on my wall here uh posted.
12:02
SPEAKER_00: Um the right of the people.
12:03
SPEAKER_00: So so so as you listen to this, this is um this is modeled very much, man, Massey is so sharp.
12:10
SPEAKER_00: It's modeled very much after the first uh amendment to the Bill of Rights, which is freedom of you know of speech.
12:18
SPEAKER_00: Um the right of the people to grow food, you uh grow food and to purchase food from the source of their choice shall not be infringed.
12:30
SPEAKER_00: So if you're familiar with the Bill of Rights, you know that the word infringed uh is a powerful, powerful word, and it has been, you know, uh, whatever, uh the subject of many, many uh court cases.
12:42
SPEAKER_00: What does infringed mean?
12:44
SPEAKER_00: Uh and and so um so this this constitutional amendment would enshrine forever uh or you know, in our in our nation um the right of food procurement to the same level as the right to assembly, the right to speech, the right to worship, um, you know, those kinds of things.
13:07
SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, it's a it's it's a it's a powerful thing.
13:10
SPEAKER_00: And he'll he'll be in the Congress to move that forward.
13:14
SPEAKER_00: So I've been on a bunch of these podcasts um lately.
13:19
SPEAKER_00: It's been interesting to watch, and and a lot of people are asking about, you know, the current, you know, what is the political situation where we are.
13:26
SPEAKER_00: So I was on one last night that really um got me to thinking, and um, and this one was uh was uh very involved with holistic management, Alan Savory.
13:39
SPEAKER_00: Many of you will know him.
13:41
SPEAKER_00: Uh he's truly a hero of mine.
13:44
SPEAKER_00: And um he developed the term holistic management and the whole holistic management framework.
13:51
SPEAKER_00: And um and and and these guys said that he is um he he is kind of he's getting some pretty good age on him now.
14:05
SPEAKER_00: He's not traveling much, and that he's kind of run the course on the the controlled, you know, the grazing management, which is what we tend to associate with holistic management.
14:16
SPEAKER_00: Uh, and of course, many of you, I'm sure, know about his his TED talk about climate change and how we need, you know, uh controlled grazing animals and perennial pastures and stuff for climate change.
14:27
SPEAKER_00: I'm not gonna get into all that rabbit hole right now, but um what he's really, and I've watched some of his postings too, what he's really gotten into is he said, what we really need is how to manage complexity governmentally, uh from a governance standpoint, how do you manage complexity?
14:46
SPEAKER_00: And so uh I was asked on this podcast, you know, what do you how do you how do you holistically manage complexity from a from a governance standpoint?
14:57
SPEAKER_00: You know, we've got this, we've got this new government coming in, we've got Trump elected, we got a whole bunch of you know new people coming in.
15:04
SPEAKER_00: Um how do you how do you manage how do you holistically manage complexity?
15:11
SPEAKER_00: And the thought that struck me, and this is what I want to share, because it's a kind of a new thought, if if you're if if um if you go to learn how to fly an airplane, you you become a student pilot and you go take flying courses, and what happened my my brother's a pilot, so I'm I'm I know some firsthand experience here.
15:30
SPEAKER_00: What happens is um that the the student aviator is often you know quite quite tense at the controls, and and if you get into a little bit of a tight spot, maybe a little bit windy or something like that, uh what happens is they start fighting the controls uh because you know they they they so they're reacting to everything and fighting the controls.
15:54
SPEAKER_00: And every instructor, every instructor, this is what I'm told at least, uh, who's ever instructed new uh pilots, when that happens, and it happens every time, what they tell the student is take your hands off the controls.
16:10
SPEAKER_00: Take your hands off the controls.
16:12
SPEAKER_00: The plane is made, so when you take your hands off the controls, it will level out.
16:19
SPEAKER_00: It will just fly level in turbulence, in in hot, cold, whatever, into the sun, out of the sun, you know, in the night, in the day.
16:29
SPEAKER_00: Take your hands off the controls, and it will just it will just level out and ease.
16:35
SPEAKER_00: And that is such a such an interesting thing, and it struck me as I um when I was as I was trying to you know answer this question, it struck me, you know, the problem is we try to manage too much.
16:51
SPEAKER_00: We, I mean, our our our federal government, our our our our governance officials, they they try to manage too much.
16:58
SPEAKER_00: And and they they uh and in when the country has an issue, uh you know, a uh a problem, whether it's economic, uh, environmental, uh food, whatever it is, you know, uh a child rearing, uh drugs, whatever it is, um, the tendency is to fight the controls.
17:21
SPEAKER_00: You know, we've got some turbulence over here.
17:24
SPEAKER_00: We gotta manage this.
17:25
SPEAKER_00: We got to manage this.
17:26
SPEAKER_00: And um, and I think the metaphor of, hey, just take your hands off, let the market work, let the let let you know information flow.
17:37
SPEAKER_00: And this is this is why Cena, and you know, you and I now have been through several censorship episodes now in the last three or four years.
17:46
SPEAKER_00: Um by the way, let me interject.
17:49
SPEAKER_01: Instagram just censored me.
17:51
SPEAKER_00: Instagram just censored you, yeah.
17:53
SPEAKER_00: Yes, okay.
17:55
SPEAKER_00: So so it it it's it's an ongoing thing.
17:57
SPEAKER_00: I mean, um I listened to uh to a um to a program an interview with um Charlie Kirk.
18:07
SPEAKER_00: Charlie Kirk's a uh conservative guy and uh has his own broadcast and stuff.
18:14
SPEAKER_00: And he said, this was interesting, he said that that 200 years from now, history will record that Elon Musk buying Twitter was equivalent to Gutenberg inventing the press.
18:29
SPEAKER_00: When Gutenberg invented the press, suddenly the average person got information.
18:36
SPEAKER_00: They found out about the the tunnels between the the Roman Catholic priests and the and the um the nuns, you know, and the tunnels and the all the stuff that was going on.
18:48
SPEAKER_00: Um and until then, nobody knew about this stuff.
18:53
SPEAKER_00: But once the printing press happened, the reason that there was the fuel of the Reformation was the printing press, which allowed the peasant to actually learn what was going on.
19:06
SPEAKER_00: You could actually get, they didn't have radio, they didn't have internet, but they had but they had a printing press.
19:11
SPEAKER_00: And and I think it's hard for us to appreciate in our day what the printing press did in that day, what it enabled to happen.
19:21
SPEAKER_00: I mean, the proliferation of pamphlets and what they call broadsides, you know, little little single-paper things, newspapers, and and of course books.
19:30
SPEAKER_00: So so here we go into the U.S.
19:33
SPEAKER_00: in our modern day, and um and it if if you're thinking at all, you I mean, RFK Jr.
19:40
SPEAKER_00: talks about agency capture.
19:41
SPEAKER_00: Well, we've got media capture.
19:43
SPEAKER_00: I mean, there is there is one line, and it's and and it's the media, it's Silicon Valley, and this censorship thing is is what it amounts to is a um is is this pilot trying to fight the controls, whether it's whether it's a regulation from the federal government or whether it's censorship from the from Silicon Valley, what it is, is a a manipulative effort to look at something you don't like in the culture.
20:18
SPEAKER_00: You know, I don't like this over here, and so I'm gonna I'm gonna control it, I'm gonna make it, and I'm gonna manage it.
20:24
SPEAKER_00: And and and the fact is that uh that a civilization like this, it it's too big to manage.
20:33
SPEAKER_00: You you you you can't you can't manage it.
20:36
SPEAKER_00: You can't manage everyone's ideas, you can't manage everyone's creativity, innovations.
20:42
SPEAKER_00: Goodness, you can't even imagine you can't even manage the problems, okay?
20:48
SPEAKER_00: Um, much less the opportunities.
20:51
SPEAKER_00: And so, and so, in my view, the most holistic way to manage complexity is quit trying to manage everything.
21:01
SPEAKER_00: Take your hands off and let decision making be done at the lowest level possible.
21:09
SPEAKER_00: One of the things that holistic management done, that Alan Savory, and again, I uh there is no, I am not um what disagreeing with him here at all.
21:17
SPEAKER_00: Uh I'm I'm trying to refine the idea a little bit, if you will.
21:21
SPEAKER_00: Um if you go to any of the holistic management programs, they are huge on on if if they're doing a ranch or a business or uh or a any kind of uh uh an uh NGO, it's always get every stakeholder in the room.
21:39
SPEAKER_00: And and just to show how well it works, uh Savory's ranch in Zimbabwe was one of the only ones in which the indigenous um Zimbabweans did not turn on him as a white man during the uprisings uh of of uh 20 years ago.
22:00
SPEAKER_00: Why?
22:00
SPEAKER_00: Well, because they had made a point of bringing in all of their staff, including the lowest, the janitor, okay, into the decision-making process and pushing and pushing the decisions down to their to their lowest um their lowest responsible place.
22:23
SPEAKER_00: And what's happened in our culture now is we have arrogated to the federal spot all this decision-making power so that many of the decisions that you and I that are being made for you and uh for you and me today, those decisions are being made from people 2,000 miles away who will never see the consequences of their decisions.
22:54
SPEAKER_00: The best way to make a decision is by the person closest to the outcome of that decision.
23:02
SPEAKER_00: That that's where the real decision's made.
23:05
SPEAKER_00: And that can't be managed at the federal level.
23:13
SPEAKER_00: So as Trump's transition team comes in, what I'm hoping for, my biggest fear is that, okay, now we're in, we're gonna make regulations that we like.
23:25
SPEAKER_00: We're gonna, you know, outlaw soft drinks, we're gonna outlaw, you know, pharmaceutical advertisements on TV, we're gonna outlaw, you know, and we're gonna trade one set of regulations for another.
23:34
SPEAKER_00: And we're gonna, again, we're gonna be fighting these controls, uh and and and and fighting whatever we, whatever the new side perceives, perceives as the dysfunction in the society.
23:47
SPEAKER_00: And and and what what I want to see is I want to see, take your hands off, you know.
23:55
SPEAKER_00: Um, and people who know me know that uh, you know, I mean, I would go so far as I think we should sell all the Bureau of Land Management land.
24:03
SPEAKER_00: Sell it, privatize it, get the government out of it.
24:05
SPEAKER_00: Um, I mean, it's you know, two-thirds of the west of the Mississippi is two-thirds of the land base, you know, uh pay off the pay off the debt.
24:14
SPEAKER_00: And um, and I I hope that uh Musk and uh Ramaswamy are successful in dropping two trillion dollars off the budget, that would be fine.
24:23
SPEAKER_00: And all the displaced federal workers, 800,000 of them, um, that are get, you know, there's two and a half million, so if we if we get rid of a million of them, um then you know they can go pick the tomatoes and gut the chickens.
24:36
SPEAKER_00: The other thing that strikes me in all this that that I've really learned in the last two weeks as I've wrestled with a lot of these questions that are coming in podcasts, you know, they want to know what do you think, what do you, is how how related everything is to everything.
24:49
SPEAKER_00: You can't policymakers, people go uh with with one thing, and and and since it came out that I was contacted to be an advisor in the USDA, our phone here at the farm has run off the hook.
25:01
SPEAKER_00: Fortunately, I don't have to answer it, but Wendy's been answering it, and she says, everybody in the world is calling.
25:07
SPEAKER_00: They've all got, they've all got their issue.
25:10
SPEAKER_00: Well, you know, here's what I need you to do, here's what I need you to do, here's what I need you to do.
25:15
SPEAKER_00: And and and and policy makers, policymakers tend tend to do that.
25:21
SPEAKER_00: That's part of the manipulation.
25:23
SPEAKER_00: It's part of the control, is well, this is my little pet project.
25:27
SPEAKER_00: This is my thing, this is my thing.
25:29
SPEAKER_00: Um, and and and and it's very, very difficult to do one thing over here and it not relate to a bunch of things over here.
25:40
SPEAKER_00: And and so um, so there's a real balance here in how do you how do you balance out, you know, dealing with this thing over here that you want to change, and it doesn't snowball into, I mean, for example, for example, when Trump got elected, uh, that what the next two days our phone rang off the hook.
25:59
SPEAKER_00: You know what everybody was paranoid about?
26:01
SPEAKER_00: Do I need to come and and stock up on food?
26:04
SPEAKER_00: Because Trump's gonna get rid of all the illegals that make our food for us, pick our tomatoes and butcher our beef, so there's not gonna be any food.
26:11
SPEAKER_00: And so we're gonna go into famine because he's getting rid of the illegals.
26:16
SPEAKER_00: That that's what was blowing up our phone here at the farm.
26:19
SPEAKER_00: And and and of course, you know, I I told Wendy, I said, look, just tell them, don't worry, somebody's gonna pick your tomatoes, you know.
26:34
SPEAKER_00: Even if it's even if I mean if it actually comes to that, you know, because the the standard thing is, well, Americans won't do those jobs.
26:42
SPEAKER_00: Well, if you eliminate welfare, there'd be a lot of Americans that would do those jobs.
26:48
SPEAKER_00: And and so so so what what you start seeing is how these things are related, which is a lot of what Alan Saber is talking about, is managing the complexity of it.
26:58
SPEAKER_00: It's not just you know a single issue.
27:01
SPEAKER_00: We go in and we cherry pick.
27:02
SPEAKER_00: Here's my little pet project, here's your little pet project.
27:05
SPEAKER_00: But um uh that's the that's the way we make policy, and then you have these unintended consequences.
27:12
SPEAKER_00: You know, you start a SNAP program, you start a supplemental nutrition assistance program, you know, it used to be food stamps, you start a SNAP program, and here we are now, Cena, nine billion dollars a year, B with a B, nine billion dollars a year.
27:27
SPEAKER_00: The biggest component of SNAP is spent on high fructose, sugary, carbonated soft drinks.
27:34
SPEAKER_00: There's no nutrition in there, and there certainly isn't supplemental nutrition.
27:39
SPEAKER_00: In fact, if you drink that, you need supplemental nutrition.
27:44
SPEAKER_00: But you know, but but but here you are, which then which then brings me, and I'll I'll finish my my we're out of time, so I'll finish my my rant here, uh, or or or my my thoughts.
27:55
SPEAKER_00: My thought is, you know, one of the hardest one of the hardest questions in the world to answer, I think, is how do you help somebody?
28:07
SPEAKER_00: How do you help somebody?
28:10
SPEAKER_00: You know, if if if if there's a um a homeless drunk on the street, giving them five dollars and and saying have a good day is not helpful.
28:22
SPEAKER_00: They're just gonna go and drink some more wine, get drunk again.
28:26
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
28:27
SPEAKER_00: It's it's it's it's really difficult to know how to help people.
28:31
SPEAKER_00: And and I think that this this um what we have to do is take our hands off the controls and let people help themselves uh and and and and make their decisions.
28:43
SPEAKER_00: And you know what?
28:44
SPEAKER_00: It ain't pretty sometimes.
28:45
SPEAKER_00: People make terrible decisions, okay?
28:47
SPEAKER_00: I get it.
28:51
SPEAKER_00: But the but but but the managing managing try to manage it from the top down has another whole set of problems.
29:00
SPEAKER_00: And so it's not like when you're dealing with humanity, um, there's there's a paradise over here and problem over here.
29:08
SPEAKER_00: No, it's it's problems all over, okay?
29:11
SPEAKER_00: And so so what I suggest is that we move the problems down to the lowest decision-making component so that we diversify, we diversify and we we reduce the impact of those decisions to just me or or me and my family or my little community.
29:33
SPEAKER_00: And and and and the decision of, for example, let's subsidize electric vehicles or let's you know subsidize windmills on the you know coast of uh of Rhode Island, uh, Massachusetts.
29:47
SPEAKER_00: Um those kind of decisions made from the top impact thousands of acres, thousands of people.
29:56
SPEAKER_00: They're they're huge impacts.
30:00
SPEAKER_00: Just take your hands off the control, take a deep breath, and let the market, let the market work, let let people find their own information, eliminate the censorship, and and and just and just let it you know let it let it chill.
30:19
SPEAKER_00: Will there be people hurt?
30:21
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
30:21
SPEAKER_00: Are there being people hurt now with top-down management?
30:25
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
30:26
SPEAKER_00: And I would suggest that the the trade-off is is uh beneficial, and that's as close as I know how to how to explain the um the the kind of less intrusive government uh uh mentality.
30:49
SPEAKER_01: I'm like visualizing you now taking your hands off, take a breath.
30:53
SPEAKER_01: Let me I love it.
30:56
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, let me let me interject if I could.
30:58
SPEAKER_01: I yeah, I agree with everything that you're saying.
31:00
SPEAKER_01: Lots of thoughts, lots to unpack here.
31:02
SPEAKER_01: So a couple highlighted highlight moments for me.
31:06
SPEAKER_01: Is it's true, you know.
31:10
SPEAKER_01: So you breaking it down this way has helped me to see why there's this stalemate, and that there always will be, because we have unless somebody's principles change.
31:22
SPEAKER_01: So the ones at the top, you know, they're even they're micromanaging, right?
31:28
SPEAKER_01: To the level of the censorship is micromanaging what you can think, right?
31:33
SPEAKER_01: They're micromanaging what we're what we're able to see, consequently, what you think, what you feel, you know, um, what you share in community.
31:40
SPEAKER_01: Um, so it's micromanaging to at its finest.
31:45
SPEAKER_01: And I think that so they want to micromanage us, which my perception of it is that when you want to control something, you're afraid.
31:56
SPEAKER_01: It's from a fear-based state.
31:58
SPEAKER_01: And I think they're afraid that we can't make the right decisions, like the quote of the.
32:03
SPEAKER_00: You are so right.
32:04
SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes, yes.
32:05
SPEAKER_01: So so that's why they feel they have to control.
32:08
SPEAKER_01: And we are like, we don't want to be controlled, we know what's right for us.
32:12
SPEAKER_01: And so, like we want those decisions to be made for ourselves.
32:15
SPEAKER_01: You're not here locally, you don't know what it's like.
32:18
SPEAKER_01: Let us have the control.
32:19
SPEAKER_01: So there's always going to be that dichotomy, and it just became crystal clear to me as you were speaking.
32:24
SPEAKER_01: So that helps me a lot.
32:26
SPEAKER_01: Thank you for that.
32:27
SPEAKER_01: Um, this also reminds me of this whole concept of just take your hands off.
32:34
SPEAKER_01: Like if you're having to manage so much stuff and you get so overwhelming, so big, take your hands off.
32:38
SPEAKER_01: This also applies to the individual, right?
32:41
SPEAKER_01: As you're talking, I'm thinking, wow, as even as a parent, that's what I've started to do.
32:47
SPEAKER_01: I've learned how to do that with my kids.
32:49
SPEAKER_01: You know, like there's these helicopter parents, and they think they're doing what's great for their kids and helping them and guiding them along the way.
32:56
SPEAKER_01: Well, you can tend to you over-guide, you try you over-correct, right?
33:01
SPEAKER_01: You over manage them.
33:03
SPEAKER_01: And then they don't learn how they don't learn the consequences of a decision, they don't learn how to fail, which asked Thomas Edison.
33:12
SPEAKER_01: That was critical in development of technology, uh, moving moving our planet forward.
33:17
SPEAKER_01: And you don't allow them then to build the confidence that they need to go out in society and stand in their power and make those decisions for themselves and to even know what they believe.
33:30
SPEAKER_01: You know, um, even something as small as like we have somebody in our homeschool group who she's just amazing.
33:37
SPEAKER_01: She's actually like a certified um, it's like a calm parenting coach.
33:42
SPEAKER_01: Oh, okay.
33:43
SPEAKER_01: You know, I don't even know there was a thing until I met her, but but chill out, chill out.
33:47
SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes.
33:48
SPEAKER_01: It and I'm telling you, it's remarkable.
33:51
SPEAKER_01: It's it's totally changed my parenting.
33:53
SPEAKER_01: And one of the big concepts is this take your hands off.
33:56
SPEAKER_01: Like, unless it's a safety issue, okay, there are always these caveats, right?
34:01
SPEAKER_01: Safety comes first.
34:03
SPEAKER_01: But when the kids start arguing, there is this feeling of like, oh, I gotta get in there and stop it.
34:10
SPEAKER_01: Like, especially if you're in public, it's gonna look really bad on me that you're sitting there arguing in you know, in public, and I'm gonna be a bad parent because of that.
34:18
SPEAKER_01: And she's like, if you always just jump in when there's some kind of conflict and you're trying to resolve it for them, they will not develop these conflict resolution skills, they won't learn how to negotiate, to share, come up with you know solutions by themselves.
34:34
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's the same concept.
34:36
SPEAKER_00: That's powerful.
34:36
SPEAKER_00: And you know, you said something there that just struck me.
34:40
SPEAKER_00: Um, where you you're you're you um you you fear that you will you will be an embarrassed parent.
34:47
SPEAKER_00: And I think a lot of this hovering is actually fear, you hit it on the head, uh, fear that that I'm gonna be perceived these these kids.
34:56
SPEAKER_00: If I don't make sure that they check these boxes, uh they're gonna embarrass me somewhere down the line.
35:03
SPEAKER_00: They're not gonna be as successful as my my friends think that my kids ought to be.
35:11
SPEAKER_00: And so it it's fear of of of parental failure, uh, that your kids are gonna embarrass you somewhere as adults, that then you, you know, so you're you're trying to guide them through and and I'm all about guiding kids, but man, got gently.
35:26
SPEAKER_00: Um they they gotta they gotta find their way, they gotta figure it out.
35:30
SPEAKER_00: And um, you know, that's one reason I'm such a big believer in uh in child child entrepreneurism, you know, uh have their own business, uh, you know, make a make a product or a service and and and sell it.
35:42
SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, that could be another whole podcast sometime, but um that'd be great.
35:47
SPEAKER_01: But no, you're absolutely right because see, if you've if your child quote unquote embarrasses you in public, that triggers a deep wound in all of us that once again we are not good enough.
35:59
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, people are perceiving us as not being good enough, and that's our deep-rooted fear.
36:04
SPEAKER_01: So, see, both sides, I mean, both of those act out of fear, you know.
36:08
SPEAKER_01: So it's really a matter of letting go of that fear.
36:10
SPEAKER_01: But how do you get, you know, the thousands and thousands of employees at the top, or would you say millions?
36:17
SPEAKER_01: Is it millions that are in the government now?
36:19
SPEAKER_01: How many?
36:19
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, two about about two 2.4 million.
36:22
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, how do you get them to let go of fear?
36:24
SPEAKER_00: That's just that's just federal government.
36:26
SPEAKER_00: That's just federal government.
36:27
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
36:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
36:29
SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
36:30
SPEAKER_00: And and and about a third of them don't even go to work.
36:33
SPEAKER_01: They just get a paycheck.
36:35
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
36:36
SPEAKER_00: It's yeah, it's pretty, it's pretty obscene.
36:38
SPEAKER_00: So um, yeah, I I hope this represents in many ways uh a just taking their hands off and letting letting letting the economy, the country, and all the little itty bitty relational decisions and controls that we make on a local family, individual scale, it's okay.
37:03
SPEAKER_00: It's okay.
37:03
SPEAKER_00: There'll be some good ones, there'll be some bad ones, but the impact will be a lot smaller for any one of those.
37:11
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
37:12
SPEAKER_01: Yes, because it's happening at the local level.
37:14
SPEAKER_01: I think that's a fantastic.
37:15
SPEAKER_01: And um, just if it makes you feel any better, you know how like Kennedy and Make America Healthy Again, they have that website where you can nominate people.
37:24
SPEAKER_01: So I just looked and um under food and ag, you're um you have the second most votes right now.
37:33
SPEAKER_01: So but Thomas Massey had the third most votes.
37:37
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, so so even if you're not picked, the people love you, right?
37:42
SPEAKER_01: The people resonate with the message because it's it's common sense, it it makes a lot of sense.
37:47
SPEAKER_01: And like we just showed in this podcast, it applies down to the individual level, that individual and the family unit level.
37:53
SPEAKER_01: So it resonates.
37:55
SPEAKER_01: So you just keep on chugging.
38:02
SPEAKER_01: All right.
38:02
SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you all for joining us um and for all your wonderful insights, Joel.
38:08
SPEAKER_01: And let's round it out with a community question.
38:12
SPEAKER_01: So you got one up your sleeve.
38:15
SPEAKER_01: Uh notice how I now I I like I have no problems with control on this podcast.
38:22
SPEAKER_01: I just delegate to Joel.
38:24
SPEAKER_01: You can do that one.
38:25
SPEAKER_00: Like Yeah.
38:27
SPEAKER_00: So, so um, so a lot of times there's a wonderful uh business book.
38:35
SPEAKER_00: I read a lot of business books, and there's one called um um The One Thing.
38:41
SPEAKER_00: The one thing.
38:42
SPEAKER_00: Wendy had it read had me read it.
38:44
SPEAKER_00: Uh and um and so yeah, as we've looked at this, I I would ask you a question.
38:54
SPEAKER_00: Um if you were Secretary of Agriculture, is there one thing, one thing that you would do?
39:03
SPEAKER_00: Forget about all the complexity, just just focus on one thing, one dom one domino.
39:09
SPEAKER_00: Uh, what would that be?
39:11
SPEAKER_00: One thing that you that you would like to see done.
39:16
SPEAKER_01: All right.
39:17
SPEAKER_01: I love it.
39:18
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'll go through them too and see what suggestions people had.
39:21
SPEAKER_01: And you know, maybe we can come up with some ideas as the people guiding the bureaucracy.
39:27
SPEAKER_00: There you go.
39:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I like it.
39:30
SPEAKER_01: Okay, great.
39:31
SPEAKER_01: Thank you all for joining us, and we will see you next week.