Latest / Ridiculous History / First Ladies Who Weren't Wives, Part One: The Niece Will Have To Do

Transcript

First Ladies Who Weren't Wives, Part One: The Niece Will Have To Do · Ridiculous History

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: the show Ridiculous Historians. Thank you so much as always
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: for tuning in. That's the first gentleman of our podcast.
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: Our super producer, mister Max Williams.
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: I've actually always dreamed of being a house Husband's a
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: posh gag right there.
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: In late stage capitalism. Are you kidding? What are we
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: doing here, you guys? I am Ben Bullet. That's mister
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: Noel Brown. Hello, Hello, sir. We are talking about something
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: that was in the news again quite recently, the historical
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: concept here in the United States of something called the
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: first lady.
• 1:10
  Speaker 3: So every floats, yes, Fay.
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: Yes, Flotus and Potus what a power couple. So historically speaking,
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: every single US president so far has had a person
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: close to them assuming the role of first lady. Generally
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: most of the time, especially in recent years, the first
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: Lady of the United States, or Flotus, as you pointed out,
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: has been the spouse of the current president, but that
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: was not always the case.
• 1:44
  Speaker 4: That's right, and just really quickly that I just thought
• 1:46
  Speaker 4: it might be worth mentioning for anyone overseas or anyone
• 1:50
  Speaker 4: here in the United States and maybe isn't up on
• 1:51
  Speaker 4: this kind of stuff. What does the first lady do exactly?
• 1:56
  Speaker 4: It can mean lots of things. They are often charity
• 1:59
  Speaker 4: events and things and causes that you know, various first
• 2:03
  Speaker 4: ladies throughout history have sort of taken on. There is
• 2:06
  Speaker 4: the role of essentially being a presidential liaison of sorts.
• 2:11
  Speaker 4: Oftentimes they interface and interact with kids and education a lot.
• 2:16
  Speaker 4: But it is kind of an amorphous role and depending
• 2:20
  Speaker 4: on the first lady can be a lot of different things, right.
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, because first ladies don't always have to be spousands.
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: There could be daughters, sisters, nieces, and as we'll see
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: in later explorations, it goes pretty wide. It goes wider
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: than that, because there is no thing, no language in
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: the Constitution requiring the existence or the role of a
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: flutus of a first lady. It's one of those rule
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: of thumb things, always been a tradition, and I love
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: that you're pointing out the relatively a morphous nature of this.
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: First ladies are a golden goose for media, for documentaries, podcasts, books,
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: scholarly papers, but there's no legal definition. It's kind of
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: a thing of it's kept of a matter of what you,
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: as flutis want to do. Some are definitely more active
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: than others.
• 3:26
  Speaker 4: I will read a quick excerpt from who is a
• 3:29
  Speaker 4: First Lady from the Nationalparkservice dot gov website INPs dot gov.
• 3:34
  Speaker 4: A director of social affairs, presidential aison, symbol of strength,
• 3:37
  Speaker 4: policy advocate, political reformer, keeper of the people's house. Yes,
• 3:43
  Speaker 4: that's interesting, partner and confidant. The first ladies of the
• 3:47
  Speaker 4: United States have taken on numerous roles throughout American history.
• 3:51
  Speaker 4: As the cultural milieu shifted, so did the expectations and
• 3:55
  Speaker 4: responsibilities of a first lady.
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: Yes, they shift back and forth. With that I'll see
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: you there on National Park Service and also go to
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: the White House Historical Association, a great summation written by
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: Rosie Kine. And this is with big thanks to our
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: research associate, Jeff white House History dot org. They say, commentators, scholars,
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: and American society have typically defined the role of first
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: lady by marriage, elevating the status of the presidential spouse,
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: rather than focusing on the duties performed by these individuals,
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: hosting events, personal political confidante to the president, supporting political
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: and social causes, which we'll get to, and then historically
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: serving as a symbolic model. Dare I say propaganda of
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: what American womanhood means at the time of that administration
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: or to that administration.
• 4:53
  Speaker 4: I guess the reason I cringed a little bit at
• 4:55
  Speaker 4: that because it sort of comes off somewhat as sort
• 4:57
  Speaker 4: of America's housekeeper, which feels.
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: A little dated.
• 5:01
  Speaker 3: I don't know about you.
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, these individuals are often called white House hostesses because
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: a lot of what they're doing is what we would
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: deem soft diplomacy, you know what I mean, figuring out
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: how to run the party. Let's get to Let's get
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: to one of our first or two of our first examples.
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: Old Thomas Jefferson, a uniquely humble guy, the kind of
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: dude who had the modesty to look at the Christian
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: Bible and say, I have some notes.
• 5:33
  Speaker 4: So Thomas Jefferson, call him TJ for ridiculous history purposes.
• 5:37
  Speaker 4: He actually had two unconventional first ladies, one being his
• 5:41
  Speaker 4: daughter Martha and the other being his buddy James Madison's
• 5:45
  Speaker 4: wife Dolly. This is a sad story, however, because it
• 5:49
  Speaker 4: is due to the fact that his wife passed away
• 5:53
  Speaker 4: twenty years before his inauguration and I.
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: Would say even the propaganda of this was even more
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: important in the early days of the United States. Yes,
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: Thomas Jefferson's wife, Martha sadly passed away long before he
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: ascended to the position of potus. So as a result
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: of this unfortunate passing, when Thomas Jefferson ascends to the
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: office of potus, they need someone to fill that first
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: lady role. His eldest daughter, Martha Jefferson Randolph, steps in
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: and she becomes the first lady, the lead host for
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: everyone visiting the presidency when it is the Jefferson administration.
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: She goes on and we're leaning again on White Househistory
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: dot org. Here a great bio of Martha Jefferson Randolph.
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: She goes on to get a private education, and let's
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: be honest, not all women can get this. In the
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: seventeen hundreds, she travels with her father T. Jeffy across
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: the world. She marries a guy named Thomas Mann Randolph
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: on February twenty third, seventeen ninety. Shout out to our
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: earlier honorific episode, this is her relative, but it's a
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: distant relative, you know what I mean, Like it's okay,
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: it's a ish Okay, yeah, they take it, allow it.
• 7:23
  Speaker 4: It's certainly better than you know, other examples of cousin Mary.
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah. They have twelve children together, Thomas Mann Randolph and Martha,
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: eleven of.
• 7:33
  Speaker 3: Whom Man Randolph. That's great. I don't know, I like
• 7:35
  Speaker 3: the sound of that.
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: Eleven of these children, these issue they survived to adulthood.
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: The couples live in at Jefferson's plantation Monticello. We could
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: do multiple episodes about.
• 7:49
  Speaker 4: That, right, I mean, we do know, of course that
• 7:52
  Speaker 4: Thomas Jefferson was a slave owner.
• 7:55
  Speaker 3: Yes, not great.
• 7:58
  Speaker 4: Martha was the head of that households and kind of
• 8:01
  Speaker 4: handled all of the affairs and managed the staff, and.
• 8:04
  Speaker 3: That included the enslaved workers, which right rough.
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: And she was doing this not just at her dad's
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: spot Monticello, but also at her husband's plantation Edge Hill.
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: So Thomas Jefferson fast forward, he's elected to the presidency,
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: and when he is, his eldest daughter travels up to
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: DC and she serves as what they call the White
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: House hostess during the winter social seasons to eighteen oh three,
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: at eighteen oh five to eighteen oh six, I look
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: the idea of social seasons like the galas, the balls,
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: the fundraising meetings. It still happens in certain upper echelons
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: of US society, and it always seems so silly to me.
• 8:51
  Speaker 4: And there's a winter social season. Surely there's a summer
• 8:54
  Speaker 4: social season as well. They require wearing.
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: Of different hats and garments, you know, more flowy white
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: garments in the summer, and perhaps you know a little
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: more bundled up in the win Why are you wearing
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: a tuxedo? Jack? It's after seven? Lemon? What am I
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: a farmer?
• 9:10
  Speaker 3: One? Am I a farmer? Very good? Very good? Thirty rock?
• 9:13
  Speaker 4: That relationship that will they won't they? Of Liz Lemon
• 9:18
  Speaker 4: and Jack Donaghan never ceases to entertain me. Yeah, excellent
• 9:21
  Speaker 4: rewatchability factor.
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: Absolutely, the density of jokes. My favorite is the one
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: throwaway line my new single, My new single is Dropping,
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: is Dropping. That's Tracy Jordan's wife when she becomes part
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: of a reality show.
• 9:37
  Speaker 4: You just scrambled my brains. And as for the will
• 9:39
  Speaker 4: they won't they? Of Liz and Jack, they won't they?
• 9:42
  Speaker 4: It's not meant to be sexual attention. It's more of
• 9:44
  Speaker 4: a mentor mentee relationship.
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: Very lost in translation. I guess there is a little
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: of that.
• 9:51
  Speaker 3: I just who was I listening to?
• 9:52
  Speaker 4: It was the blank Check podcast with Griffin and David,
• 9:54
  Speaker 4: who I love dearly. They were talking about how every
• 9:58
  Speaker 4: time someone points out this idea of simmering sexual attention
• 10:02
  Speaker 4: on the show, both Jack and Liz get intensely annoyed.
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah right, I mean, picture your dad naked or don't
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: you know what I mean? That's what it's going towards south. So,
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: speaking of close relationships with one's pattern familius master of
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: the segue, Thank you, sir. Martha is doing really well
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: at first because during these social seasons, in her role
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: functionally as the first Lady, she is a huge advocate
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: for Tommy Jeff's career, and she gets a reputation in
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: the salons, in the philosophical discourse of the day. People
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: are looking around and saying, hey, you know, I know
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: she's the president's kid. But even with all that aside,
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: she's really smart. She's a cracker.
• 10:50
  Speaker 4: Jack attending salons, you know, intellectual discussions and all of
• 10:55
  Speaker 4: that stuff.
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: But behind the headlines, behind those happy conversations, there are
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: financial difficulties. Both her husband Man Randolph and her father
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: Tommy Jay are continually worried about the coin, so her
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: father dies in eighteen twenty six spoiler, and the family
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: is forced to sell Monticello. Martha moves to Tufton to
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: live with her eldest son, Thomas Jefferson Randolph. And at
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: this point, I want to take a moment and say
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: there's a diminishing return with remixing family names. At some point,
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: give someone a cool family name, Thomas Jefferson Randolph. You
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: could have just added the middle name with something cool,
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: like Dash or Fox or ziggy.
• 11:45
  Speaker 4: I do like man Randolph, though I've got to say
• 11:47
  Speaker 4: I'm not gonna lie.
• 11:48
  Speaker 3: Did jump in here?
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: This reminds me of John Adams second, who is the
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: son of John Quincy Adams right, who was obviously the
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: son of John Adams. And also John Adams married his
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: first cousin.
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: It's rough, man, It's just like a friendy magical realism.
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: Nerds in the crowd. It's just like One hundred Years
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: of Solitude by Gabriel Garcia Marquez. The most difficult thing
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: about reading that book is everybody has some combination of
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: the same, like three to four names. Anyway, always give
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: your kids a back pocket middle name to differentiate themselves
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: if you take nothing else from this. Ultimately we know
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: that Martha also, despite having so many kids with man Randolph,
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: she ultimately went on the rocks. Their marriage was not
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: its best, they were estranged for a long time, and
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: right before he dies in eighteen twenty eight, she reconciles
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: with him and then she spends the rest of her
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: life sort of moving around the United States, living with
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: her children on their property, sometimes in Boston, sometimes DC
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: or Virginia. And then upon her death, she is buried
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: alongside her husband and her father at Monticello. And then
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: along comes Dollie.
• 13:18
  Speaker 4: Entered Dolly Madison, who was doing some pretty clever political maneuverings,
• 13:24
  Speaker 4: you know, within her role as First Lady, she was
• 13:27
  Speaker 4: essentially trying to ensure that her husband, James Madison would
• 13:32
  Speaker 4: become the next president.
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And going back to White househistory dot org,
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: we see that there's a vinn diagram of first Lady
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: or floatis hood a dumb word we just made up.
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: Dolly Madison is unofficially doing some whispering to the kingmakers, right,
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: and during the Jefferson administration, her husband James is Secretary
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: of State and the entire time she's stepping in. You know, hey,
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: if Martha can't make it, I'm happy to host this gala,
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: you know what I mean, I'll receive the ambassador from wherever.
• 14:12
  Speaker 4: So they were essentially doing this kind of in tandem,
• 14:15
  Speaker 4: Martha and Dolly splitting up the duties.
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: Kind of alternating, sort of a double dragon situation. For
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: anybody who played an increasingly obscure video game, love a
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: good beat them up? Yeah, yeah, I love a good scroller.
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: And every time, this is a true story, folks, every
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: time my pal Nola and I are on the road,
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: we do look for an arcade if it's available, right,
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: love a good arcade.
• 14:43
  Speaker 4: If anybody ever finds themselves in the Atlanta area, I
• 14:45
  Speaker 4: highly recommend. I believe it's called Round One at the
• 14:49
  Speaker 4: Cumberland Mall, which is a cornucopia of incredible claw machines
• 14:54
  Speaker 4: and obscure Japanese fighting cabinet games that characters you've never
• 14:58
  Speaker 4: heard of, not to mention, like every rhythm game you
• 15:00
  Speaker 4: could possibly want to try your hand at. And I
• 15:03
  Speaker 4: think there are some elsewhere in the country too, So
• 15:05
  Speaker 4: look into Round One if you're seeking a rat arcade.
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they're a chain. And speaking of shades of power. Right,
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: come on, So eighteen oh one, let's learn a little
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: bit of background. Dolly and her husband, James, who gets
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: famous for other things later. They moved to d C
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: because James is Secretary of State and he's it's a
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: friendship hire Tommy j hires him, And because Jefferson is
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: a widower, Dolly is periodically assisting Jefferson, primarily when other
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: women are visiting the White House or visiting the President.
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: So it's not just Tommy Jay hanging out in a room.
• 15:50
  Speaker 4: No, she's hosting these social gatherings or you know, like
• 15:53
  Speaker 4: hosting the wives of powerful men, and by you know,
• 15:58
  Speaker 4: getting in their good graces. Less had a pretty close
• 16:01
  Speaker 4: walk to influencing some of these powerful men as well.
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: And she also, to your excellent point about political machination,
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: she also created an alternative hub of power over at
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: the Madison House, which was on f Street. What one
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: Washingtonian observed during this time was the following quote. After
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: the presidents, the House of the Secretary of State was
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: the resort of most company. Politicians and diplomats could not
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: resist Dolly's conciliatory disposition, her frank, gracious manners. They frequented
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: her evening circle and sat at her husband's table, so
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: she was the after party as well.
• 16:48
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, the afters indeed.
• 16:49
  Speaker 4: And Dolly does get a lot of attention in the
• 16:52
  Speaker 4: conversation surrounding first ladies, I think because she was so
• 16:55
  Speaker 4: charming and she was also so politically adapt But I
• 17:00
  Speaker 4: don't think she came off as being duplicitous necessarily either.
• 17:04
  Speaker 3: She navigated it all, you know, with grace. I would say, I.
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: Think history remembers her pretty fondly for all of this stuff.
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, one hundred percent, dude, because she understands the
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: we keep using the words symbolic. White House sources also
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: will use the word symbolic. But let's be honest, we're
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: talking propaganda, you know what I mean, Like how autorifics
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: are just fancy nicknames. Symbolic importance is just propaganda importance
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: at this point, That's right.
• 17:34
  Speaker 4: So Dolly basically becomes the quintessential first Lady and that
• 17:38
  Speaker 4: kind of prototype for the model of American womanhood that
• 17:44
  Speaker 4: we mentioned at the top of the show because of
• 17:46
  Speaker 4: all of these you know, social graces and ability to
• 17:49
  Speaker 4: kind of.
• 17:50
  Speaker 3: Play a man's game, you know, with a woman's Wiles
• 17:53
  Speaker 3: or whatever there. I don't know.
• 17:56
  Speaker 4: I'm speaking in the parlance of the time, you know
• 17:58
  Speaker 4: what I mean.
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. And Jefferson, for his part, Look, I think
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: a lot of people forget this about the.
• 18:05
  Speaker 3: Guy he is.
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: He's got big startup CEO energy, right, he's very much
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: the guy who says, look, let's be informal, you know,
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: the United States, it's an experiment. We're throwing out all
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: that stuffy old world, the trappings, the morays, the trappings,
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: the values. So we're not gonna sit people in this
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: rigid diplomatic hierarchy. You come to hang out with me,
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: your boy President Tommy, jeff just figure out where you
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: want to sit for dinner, you know, and then we'll
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: just hang out. And Dolly becomes the social glue or
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: the bridge between these two very different worlds. Sometimes it
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: triggers international incidents.
• 18:52
  Speaker 3: That's right, I mean.
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: But you know, she did become an international figure because
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: of some of these examples, one of which involved Jefferson
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: creating a serious international kerfuffle in eighteen oh three by
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: escorting Dolly to the dinner table instead of the wife
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: of a British ambassador by the name of Anthony Mary,
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: who I'm sure we all know and remember.
• 19:16
  Speaker 4: Yet one hundred percent some of those stuffy kind of
• 19:19
  Speaker 4: mores and hierarchies that we had mentioned, or that you
• 19:23
  Speaker 4: had mentioned, Ben would have dictated that that be the move.
• 19:27
  Speaker 4: But instead they were kind of righting their own rules.
• 19:30
  Speaker 4: And maybe that flies, you know, in their own country,
• 19:33
  Speaker 4: but with when folks are coming in from outside of
• 19:36
  Speaker 4: the United States, kind of important to play by their
• 19:39
  Speaker 4: rules at least to some degree, wouldn't you say? And
• 19:43
  Speaker 4: doctor plomacy is right sort of writing that fine.
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: Line meeting in the middle, before you push the envelope
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: or before you take somewhere. It's someone somewhere, you have
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: to find them where they're at. This sounds weird, but
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: it was a very big deal. It's eighteen oh three
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: picture The Night of Dolly is trying to get Tommy
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: Jeff to do the right thing, and she's say, no, no,
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: don't take me, you gotta this is very important to
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: these weird British people.
• 20:11
  Speaker 4: She's demonstrating some more diplomatic chops than the press.
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: Cultural knowledge like in certain areas of the Middle East,
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: shouldn't eat with your left hand nor shake with it.
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: She knew all of these tips and tricks. Jefferson either
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: didn't know or because of his big startup energy, he
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: didn't care. Anthony Mary and the Mary missus were not
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: fans of this. They felt snubbed, and it became something
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: called the Mary affair. Just so, petty, who walks to
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: dinner in what order? That's wild.
• 20:46
  Speaker 4: It's just it's another example that we see all the
• 20:49
  Speaker 4: time in history, how one seemingly insignificant events or a
• 20:53
  Speaker 4: you know, like a butterfly effect type situation can lead
• 20:57
  Speaker 4: to toppling dominoes, you know, further down the line, and can.
• 21:01
  Speaker 3: Actually cause hot wars.
• 21:03
  Speaker 4: I mean, like you know, I mean the assassination of
• 21:06
  Speaker 4: Archduke Franz Ferdinand for example.
• 21:08
  Speaker 3: You know, a big deal.
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: A person was killed, of course, but it would not
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: have at the time, seemed to be enough to set
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: off this powder keg that would lead to a world war.
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: We're not dealing with those kind of stakes here, but
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: it did increase some already pretty you know, rough political
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: tensions between the United States and the United Kingdom, you know,
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: for reasons I can't imagine all other things were at play. Yeah,
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: the powder keg situation almost always occurs because there were
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: rising tensions that were sort of waiting for an ignition point,
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: and that's what happened with Franz Ferdinand. This is also
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: what could have happened with the Merry incident, because from
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: the perspective of the ambassador from Great Britain, it's a
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: matter of not something pet it's a matter of do
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: you respect the king, do you respect the empire?
• 22:05
  Speaker 4: And as like we don't though right isn't necessari we
• 22:09
  Speaker 4: don't like kings here.
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: So you know, it hasn't been that far removed from
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: the old American revolutions. The tensions are incredibly high still,
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: wouldn't you say, Yeah, people are still alive remembering this.
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: You know, it's not like hanging out in Manchester and
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: taking the piss out with some of your friends about
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: the revolution. This is very close to everybody's heart and
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: experience at this point. So to Anthony Mary, he is
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: the avatar of the King, of the state, of the
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: power of Great Britain. So if you do something wrong
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: or out of diplomatic protocol, even if he personally doesn't care,
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: you have now besmirched the dignity.
• 22:49
  Speaker 3: Of the state.
• 22:50
  Speaker 4: You have insulted the King himself. You may as well
• 22:55
  Speaker 4: have spat in his face, you know exactly.
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: And Dolly again, we can't shout her out enough. Dolly
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: works within these nuances of culture. She is plugged into
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: all of the feminine power makers in these diplomatic circles.
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: So she says, look, we don't want to have this
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: blow up any more than it already has. So she
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: reaches out not directly to Elizabeth Mary Anthony, Mary's wife
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: who apparently got dissed. She goes through a common friend
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: of a friend, the wife of the Spanish ambassador. They
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: make friends. There's a lot of you know, house of
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: cards kind of maneuvering here, and eventually they bury the hatchet.
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: They succeed in inviting the Mary's over to dinner at
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: her home, at Madison's f Street home. So she may
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: have saved the day in a way that history ignores.
• 23:56
  Speaker 4: Well, she tried to prevent the whole affair in the
• 23:58
  Speaker 4: first place, and just you know, Jefferson didn't listen to her,
• 24:02
  Speaker 4: and then she ended up having to clean up his mess.
• 24:04
  Speaker 4: I wonder why he didn't listen.
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: To her, Probably because she was a woman, Yeah, but
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: I just you know, he's doing it sort of in
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: it's in her favor, right, like to escort her, and
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: she's saying, you know, no, it's it's the better move
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: to escort the wife of the diplomat, and he is
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: he just doesn't like to be told what to do
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: or is he actively pushing back against the idea of
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: following the British.
• 24:29
  Speaker 3: Kind of code.
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: I would go with the ladder there too. It seems
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: very not very smart. No, but you know, not a
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: hill dying on. Yeah. No, not everybody's smart all the time.
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: This leads us to another example again this will probably
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: be a continuing series, but Andrew Jackson, worst dude. You
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: have famously not a great president. He and not a
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: good person right neither. He also had to first ladies,
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: there was some weird, as Jeff points out, some weird
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: legality of marriage stuff going on with his first wife.
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: Excellent diplomacy there, Jeff.
• 25:17
  Speaker 4: It would seem that some of those negative qualities that
• 25:20
  Speaker 4: we hinted at led to quite the scandal with his
• 25:25
  Speaker 4: first wife. She did not even make it to his
• 25:28
  Speaker 4: inauguration because she's sadly due to something an amorphous sickness
• 25:33
  Speaker 4: that seemed to be brought on by just like anxiety
• 25:37
  Speaker 4: around the way she was treated by Andrew Jackson. Do
• 25:41
  Speaker 4: you have any more details around that, guys.
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Rachel Jackson was the if. She died on December
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: twenty second, eighteen twenty eight. She had lived with Jackson
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: at the Hermitage, but she died just days after his
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: election and before auguration, which was in eighteen twenty nine,
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: so she never served as first Lady. But you gotta
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: have a first lady at this point in time, you
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: got to have somebody being the White House host individual.
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: So according to our pal Jeff, there's another story with
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: Rachel Jackson in particular that doesn't even touch on his
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: official to first ladies. The duties of the first Lady
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: after Rachel Jackson dies go to her niece, Emily Donaldson.
• 26:33
  Speaker 3: And you know, I do have to ask.
• 26:35
  Speaker 4: It seems like it's up to the discretion of the
• 26:37
  Speaker 4: president and his advisors as to who the right person
• 26:41
  Speaker 4: is to kind of step into that role, because there
• 26:45
  Speaker 4: is no line of succession per se.
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: Right, No, there are no what is this Europe? Yes,
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: there are no rigid, rigid instructions Nora Rubric on what
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: to do. We know that Rachel Jackson was viciously attacked
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: in the press, so much so that it probably traumatized her.
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: When she is buried in an area near Nashville, Tennessee,
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: her epitaph bears the following a being so gentle and
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: so virtuous, slander might wound but could not Dishonor so
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: it seems that Andrew Jackson was so angry about the
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: campaign slurs hurled against his wife that he needed that
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: carved in stone on her grave.
• 27:35
  Speaker 3: Am I miss speaking?
• 27:36
  Speaker 4: I mean, you know, it does seem like his first wife.
• 27:41
  Speaker 4: Her condition worsened as a result of stress.
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: Absolutely, that's yeah traumatic, you know. And she she was
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: born in Virginia. She traveled through the wilderness of Tennessee
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: with her parents when she was frontier baby, Yeah, frontier baby.
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: She also was previously married before she married Jackson, which
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: was a big, big deal in a big bad way
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: at that point likely.
• 28:06
  Speaker 3: Would have been used as ammunition in that slander campaign.
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So she marries this guy, Lewis Roberts when she
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: is seventeen. He is the child of a very big
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: deal family in Mercer County, and apparently he was quite
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: the jealous husband, so much so that it made her
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: a living situation impossible. They separate in seventeen ninety and
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: then she gets word not from him, that he's filing
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: for divorce. Divorce can always be a traumatic, messy thing.
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: But folks, we're a little bit better off in twenty
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: twenty five than we are in seventeen ninety. Eventually the
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: divorce goes through, Andrew Jackson marries her the next year,
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: or they think the divorce goes through. Record scratch Max.
• 28:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: Turns out turns out that the the later president and
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: his new wife learned that this first husband, Lewis Roberts,
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: didn't get a divorce, actually he just got permission to
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: file one. And so when they get married, this guy
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: comes back out from the blue and sues them on
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: the grounds of adulterery.
• 29:27
  Speaker 3: Wow.
• 29:27
  Speaker 4: Not a good pr moment for the for the would
• 29:31
  Speaker 4: be president. After the divorce was finally granted, the Jackson's
• 29:34
  Speaker 4: remarried in seventeen ninety four, and they, you know that
• 29:39
  Speaker 4: this was no particular fault of their own.
• 29:42
  Speaker 3: You know, this was something that just was not clear.
• 29:44
  Speaker 4: And you know, we know also that the communication lines
• 29:47
  Speaker 4: of communication were slow. If things like the court systems
• 29:52
  Speaker 4: grind slowly today, back in those days due to the
• 29:55
  Speaker 4: fact that you couldn't even get word to somebody about
• 29:58
  Speaker 4: something that would have been exponentially lower those whispers, however,
• 30:02
  Speaker 4: because of that a word, that scarlet letter, adultery and bigamy,
• 30:07
  Speaker 4: even the rumors just kind of wouldn't stop, and they
• 30:12
  Speaker 4: followed Rachel around as Jackson started to make his rise in.
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: Politics and as a general, Yeah, he was quick to
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: be super hot headed about any of these rumors. If
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: he heard someone saying them in person, it was smash
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: on site. He was ready to fight with you.
• 30:32
  Speaker 4: I think where I did misspeak slightly is you know,
• 30:34
  Speaker 4: we know Andrew Jackson had some serious moral issues, you know,
• 30:40
  Speaker 4: and was very aggressive dude. It would seem, though, however,
• 30:43
  Speaker 4: that the stress that led to Rachel's untimely passing was
• 30:47
  Speaker 4: less caused by him than it was caused by just
• 30:50
  Speaker 4: what he was and represented and the need to kind
• 30:53
  Speaker 4: of tear him down a peg. And she was essentially
• 30:56
  Speaker 4: a target for that. He was going to every effort
• 31:01
  Speaker 4: that he could manage to defend her on her.
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he was fighting the tabloids of the time. We
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: could say, and look, everybody who actually knew Rachel Jackson
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: again not officially a first lady. Everybody who knew her
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: loved her because she was down home. You know, she
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: was not pretentious, she was very kind. A lot of
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: people might not even be fans of Andrew Jackson himself,
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: but when they go to the herbitage, they're welcomed as family.
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: The Jacksons never have any children of their own, but
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: they take in a lot of Rachel's relatives, and she
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: had a ton of relatives. They adopted a nephew. They
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: named him, in a burst of creativity, Andrew Jackson Junior.
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah.
• 31:45
  Speaker 4: They also raised other nephews as their own Andrew Jackson
• 31:50
  Speaker 4: Donaldson now who eventually married a cousin as well. First
• 31:55
  Speaker 4: cousin that would see Emily, one of Rachel's favorite nieces.
• 32:00
  Speaker 3: So match made in heaven. There.
• 32:02
  Speaker 4: When Jackson was finally elected president, he planned to have
• 32:07
  Speaker 4: Donaldson serve as private secretary, with Emily hanging around to
• 32:13
  Speaker 4: keep Rachel company.
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, and then, of course, as we mentioned, Rachel
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: Jackson passes away, and with this Emily gets an unforeseen promotion.
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: Jackson says, why don't you serve as the hostess? You
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: do the and again this is very dated. You do
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: the woman, folks, stuff that's what they're thinking. And she
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: is twenty one at this point. She enters the White House.
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: She takes care of everything, her her uncle, you know,
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: the President, her own husband. She has four children, three
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: are born at the White House, and she takes care
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: of visiting relatives and then official guest. It's a big
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: family in the White House at this time. And everybody
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: who'd be her again, they lover her. They say, look,
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: I might not agree with old Anty, but his sidekick
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: is awesome. And also she will stick up to the
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: President of the United States on issues of principle. If
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: she has a problem with something, if she thinks he's
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: you know, rolling off the road in one way or another,
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: then she is speaking truth to power, which is a
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: very difficult thing to do. But she also dies of
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: tuberculosis in eighteen thirty six, and so it came to
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: pass that during the last months of the Jackson administration.
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: Here we go more confusing names. Sarah York Jackson, who
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: is the wife of Andrew Jackson Junior, the adopted nephew,
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: functionally becomes the first lady.
• 33:51
  Speaker 3: That's right.
• 33:52
  Speaker 4: And you know, it's interesting how all of these first
• 33:55
  Speaker 4: ladies were so popular and so beloved despite Andrew Jackson
• 34:02
  Speaker 4: again being a bit of a pill and we yeah,
• 34:05
  Speaker 4: was he popular at the time though, I mean, I know,
• 34:07
  Speaker 4: history remembers him for things like the Indian Removal Act
• 34:11
  Speaker 4: of eighteen thirty and you know, pushing for states rights
• 34:15
  Speaker 4: and ethnic cleansing, you know, of Native Americans from state lands,
• 34:19
  Speaker 4: and also being very aggressive towards the civil rights of
• 34:23
  Speaker 4: free people of color, you know, and having also been
• 34:27
  Speaker 4: a pretty brutal slave owner himself. But I'm just wondering,
• 34:31
  Speaker 4: what was the feeling. A lot of people seemed like
• 34:33
  Speaker 4: they might have been cool with a lot of the
• 34:35
  Speaker 4: stuff in the day of his presidency.
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: Contemporarily, he did have a lot of opposition, but he
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: also had a lot of support. There's a reason he
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: became president. No, if you go back through one of
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: the favorite games of we historical president buffs, you'll see
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: that he is not ranked as low as a lot
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: of presidents. I'm best the worst, but he is not
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: ranked very high either. He was always polemical. He was
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: always a kind of demagogue. You know, crowds loved him,
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: they loved his speeches. He was very much against certain
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: aspects of banking. That part we could agree with. He
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: was opposed to the Second Bank of the United States because.
• 35:20
  Speaker 4: It wasn't there a scandal to where he removed deposits
• 35:23
  Speaker 4: of some kind and was censured by the legislature.
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: Well, the Second Bank was an absolute existential threat to
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: the idea of democracy. It was a private company, but
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: of it functioned as a government sponsored monopoly. And I
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: do appreciate that you're doing the needful thing here as well,
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: which is he definitely participated in widespread genocidal attempts and
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: against Native American populations. You could put thousands of deaths
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: at his feet. And again, the terrifying thing is that
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: gained him a lot of support. So people might be
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: opposed to his ideas, but then when they meet when
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: they meet his niece, they think, here's someone I can
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: talk stuff out with. Or when they meet Sarah Yorke Jackson,
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: who is his adoptive daughter in law, they think, okay,
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: well I could talk to her.
• 36:27
  Speaker 4: Yeah, And she continued to kind of carry the torch
• 36:30
  Speaker 4: of that role by hosting functions at the White House
• 36:34
  Speaker 4: along with Emily Donaldson, and when Donaldson departed two years later,
• 36:39
  Speaker 4: she took over fully.
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so let's learn a little bit about Sarah. Sarah
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: Yorke is born somewhere in the early eighteen hundreds, right
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: at the turn of the nineteenth century, eighteen oh three
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: to eighteen oh five. She's in Philly. She is orphaned
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: as a child. She is raised by relatives. She Andrew
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: Jackson Junior that adopted son in eighteen thirty one, She
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: like so many others, lives at the Hermitage, and she,
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: like other people, oversees the operation of the household, including
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: enslaved people on the property. And a fire damages the
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: Hermitage in eighteen thirty four. So Sarah York Jackson now
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: and her family moved to the White House, and she,
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: as you said, is assisting Emily Donaldson in these hosting
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: positions Jackson, and she sees out the administration. She does
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: this after Emily Donaldson passes. When Jackson leaves the presidency,
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: Sarah York Jackson and her family go back to Tennessee,
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: and she takes care of her father in law, the
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: former president, until he passes away in eighteen forty five,
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: at which point the ownership of the hermitage goes to
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: the adopted son, Andrew Jackson Junior, and get this nol.
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: He sells it.
• 38:08
  Speaker 4: To pay off some bretty crippling debt in eighteen fifty six.
• 38:12
  Speaker 4: So after Sarah's husband passed, she continued on at the
• 38:16
  Speaker 4: Hermitage until she passed away on August twenty third of
• 38:19
  Speaker 4: eighteen eighty seven. And she is buried there in a
• 38:22
  Speaker 4: cemetery on the grounds.
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: And with that, I propose that we haul it a
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: day here, because the next few first Lady Fluidis situations
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: we're examining get a little bit deeper for the scope
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: of today's episode. Today, we'll talk about Van Buren in
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: our next exploration, and we will also light spoiler talk
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: about some floatist roles that were not occupied by women
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: at all.
• 38:53
  Speaker 4: Oh man, I can't wait. If you want to find
• 38:55
  Speaker 4: us on the internet, you can do so. I am
• 38:58
  Speaker 4: at how now Noel Brown on Instagram, Ben, Where can
• 39:01
  Speaker 4: the fine ridiculous historians out in podcast land find you?
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: Yes? Should you care to sip the social meet to,
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: you can find me calling myself in a burst of
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: creativity at Ben Bullen on Instagram, at Ben Bullen hsw
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: on x, or the website Benbollan dot com. Big Big
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: thanks to mister Max Williams. Our research associate, Jeff. We
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: need a good nickname for Jeff. We'll get there one day.
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: What do you got Do you got one?
• 39:27
  Speaker 3: Jeff mac Tonight, bartlet we go? I guys love that episode. Man,
• 39:33
  Speaker 3: what a fun discussing that was.
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: H Yeah, big, big thanks of course to aj Bahama's Jacobs,
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: to Jonathan Strickland aka the Quister, and Alex Tijuana Williams.
• 39:46
  Speaker 4: Indeed, Chris Frasciota Sieves, Jeffcoats here in spirit, Max Williams,
• 39:51
  Speaker 4: the man behind the Curtain.
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: Add big thanks to the curtain. We paid a pretty
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: hefty price for it, but I think it's good. I
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: think it's cool for us to have a curtain we.
• 40:01
  Speaker 4: Got at the same time we got the giant Grandfather
• 40:03
  Speaker 4: clock that we occasionally referenced.
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes, yes we did. And if you want to
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: learn more about the mythos, please check out our past, present,
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: and future episodes. As always, thank you for tuning in, folks.
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: There's so much more to explore and we're glad you're
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: doing it with us. And Noel, thank you to.
• 40:21
  Speaker 3: You, Ah and you as well. Ben. We'll see you
• 40:23
  Speaker 3: next time, folks.
• 40:31
  Speaker 4: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts,
• 40:35
  Speaker 4: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.