Latest / Romancing the Threshold / Sharon Lynn Fisher: Small Magic, Ancient Power

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Sharon Lynn Fisher: Small Magic, Ancient Power · Romancing the Threshold

0:25
SPEAKER_00: If you've been listening to this podcast,
0:27
SPEAKER_00: you know the last episodes explored what AI is stirring up in us.
0:32
But we also touched on what helps us stay present in the midst
0:36
of these collective
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SPEAKER_00: threshold times.
0:39
SPEAKER_00: We touched on joy and desire as a compass,
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and also what closeness to death can teach us about facing our
0:46
fears with more
0:47
SPEAKER_00: courage.
0:49
Today's conversation goes through a different door,
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an older one and a quieter one.
0:55
A while back,
0:57
I stumbled on a book,
0:59
Tea and Alchemy by Sharon Lynn Fisher.
1:03
SPEAKER_00: The title got me.
1:04
SPEAKER_00: Tea, love, alchemy, love.
1:07
SPEAKER_00: The cover got me.
1:08
SPEAKER_00: I loved its design.
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SPEAKER_00: But I knew nothing else.
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And within a week,
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I read all three of her cozy gothic romances back to back.
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Tea and Alchemy,
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Grim Curiosities,
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and Salt and Broom,
1:22
which,
1:22
by the way,
1:23
has a beautiful cover.
1:25
And I read these with a kind of appetite that told me something
1:29
in these stories
1:30
SPEAKER_00: was feeding something I deeply needed.
1:34
SPEAKER_00: And here's what I found.
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Every one of Sharon's books follows a woman who walks in a
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world shaped by inherited darkness.
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SPEAKER_00: Curses passed down through bloodlines,
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SPEAKER_00: family secrets sealed shut for generations,
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SPEAKER_00: whole systems built on what the previous generation refused to face.
1:58
SPEAKER_00: They're set in Victorian England,
2:01
SPEAKER_00: under its rigid and hierarchical society,
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SPEAKER_00: where a woman's agency is barely a sliver.
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SPEAKER_00: And in each story, the heroine does something quietly radical.
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SPEAKER_00: She doesn't fight the system head on.
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SPEAKER_00: She doesn't stage a revolution.
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SPEAKER_00: She makes tea.
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SPEAKER_00: She reads the leaves.
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SPEAKER_00: She gathers herbs.
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And she asks questions when everyone around her have decided
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that it's safer to stop asking.
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SPEAKER_00: And through these small,
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SPEAKER_00: persistent embodied acts,
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SPEAKER_00: acts that look domestic,
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SPEAKER_00: that look ordinary,
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SPEAKER_00: that look like nothing,
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SPEAKER_00: the inherited curse begins to break.
2:45
SPEAKER_00: What struck me is that this isn't just metaphor.
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SPEAKER_00: What Sharon's heroines practice is something ancient.
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SPEAKER_00: It's a way of knowing that lives in the body.
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SPEAKER_00: in ritual, in the daily act of detending what's right in front of you.
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SPEAKER_00: It's about making a cup of tea with intention,
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SPEAKER_00: noticing what the leaves say,
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paying attention to what's growing in the garden and what's
3:14
rotting in the walls.
3:16
SPEAKER_00: It's a kind of perception that asks you to slow down,
3:20
SPEAKER_00: to feel into what's subtle rather than be overwhelmed by what's loud.
3:28
SPEAKER_00: And in a time when so much is loud,
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SPEAKER_00: when fear and urgency want all of our attention,
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SPEAKER_00: I think that slowness,
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SPEAKER_00: that attentiveness,
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SPEAKER_00: is more powerful than it appears.
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SPEAKER_00: Because the small isn't small.
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SPEAKER_00: It tends to tears in the web.
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It strengthens what connects us,
3:50
even when we can't see how far it reaches.
3:54
Sharon may wonder from time to time whether writing cozy
3:59
romance matters in a world
4:02
SPEAKER_00: that is in chaotic threshold.
4:04
SPEAKER_00: And her readers keep answering her question by telling her,
4:09
your book was the door I could walk through when all other
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doors felt sealed.
4:15
SPEAKER_00: I felt the same way.
4:18
SPEAKER_00: Today I'm talking with Sharon Lynn Fisher.
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She's a Pacific Northwest based author whose earlier work was
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science fiction
4:27
SPEAKER_00: romance,
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SPEAKER_00: but who,
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SPEAKER_00: after years of telling herself fantasy wasn't serious enough,
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SPEAKER_00: finally wrote what she actually wanted to write.
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SPEAKER_00: What emerged are these cozy Gothic romances set in Victorian England,
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SPEAKER_00: full of tea and herbs,
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SPEAKER_00: cottage witchcraft,
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SPEAKER_00: and heroines whose curiosity refuses to be contained.
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We talk about what it costs to keep devaluing the thing that
4:57
lights you up.
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SPEAKER_00: about what gets inherited and what gets healed,
5:03
SPEAKER_00: about why curiosity might be more than it appears.
5:08
SPEAKER_00: Because curiosity is what keeps us present,
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SPEAKER_00: what refuses to let things be flattened into simple answers.
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SPEAKER_00: It keeps our desire for life alive.
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And that's precisely why it's the first thing that gets shut
5:23
down when fear or
5:25
SPEAKER_00: power over enters the room.
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SPEAKER_00: Sharon's heroines know this in their bones.
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SPEAKER_00: They keep asking questions,
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SPEAKER_00: keep looking closer,
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keep staying with the mystery when it would be so much easier
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to walk away.
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SPEAKER_00: And about the question that sits underneath all of it,
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SPEAKER_00: the one I suspect many of you are asking yourselves as well.
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SPEAKER_00: Does the work I do matter?
5:55
SPEAKER_00: So let's find out.
5:57
SPEAKER_00: I'm Vanessa Cuto and this is Romancing the Threshold.
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SPEAKER_00: So Sharon, how are you doing?
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SPEAKER_00: Good, good.
6:04
SPEAKER_00: How are you?
6:05
SPEAKER_00: Good.
6:06
SPEAKER_00: It's fun to be here with you.
6:08
SPEAKER_00: Fun to be here with you too.
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SPEAKER_00: This is going to be fun.
6:10
SPEAKER_00: I've got my tea, my water in honor of our conversation.
6:17
SPEAKER_00: But we were just chatting before I hit record the warm up.
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SPEAKER_00: And we were talking about thresholds, you know, crossing thresholds.
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SPEAKER_00: But perhaps before we dive into that bigger topic,
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SPEAKER_00: I just want to hear,
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SPEAKER_00: like,
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SPEAKER_00: what's your origin story as a writer?
6:35
SPEAKER_01: That one is pretty simple and short and simple.
6:37
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
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SPEAKER_01: maybe it's more loaded than I realize as things often are,
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SPEAKER_01: but I was,
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SPEAKER_01: um,
6:43
SPEAKER_01: a reader,
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SPEAKER_01: you know,
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SPEAKER_01: from being a child,
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SPEAKER_01: you know,
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my dad always said that I learned to read by sitting on his lap
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and pointing at
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SPEAKER_01: words in the newspaper.
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SPEAKER_01: And he would tell me the words and, and, um,
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I just reading for me was always I mean,
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I'm I'm naturally like curious,
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kind of a seeker.
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SPEAKER_01: And but also as a child, I was pretty introverted and shy.
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SPEAKER_01: And so I also anything that could was comforting, I was drawn to.
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SPEAKER_01: And so reading really was.
7:17
fit both of those,
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you know,
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both of the,
7:19
helped me with both of those things.
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SPEAKER_01: And so, um, I was very drawn to it.
7:23
So from an early age,
7:24
I was,
7:25
I would told my parents,
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I want to be a writer.
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SPEAKER_01: I want to write books when I grew up.
7:30
SPEAKER_01: And I actually did a lot of writing as a young child.
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SPEAKER_01: I wrote some short stories and,
7:35
SPEAKER_01: um,
7:36
SPEAKER_01: oftentimes my,
7:37
the things I would write when I was younger would kind of mimic
7:40
stories that I was
7:41
SPEAKER_01: reading or enjoying.
7:42
SPEAKER_01: Um,
7:43
And,
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uh,
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I did things like wrote little family news hand wrote like
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little family newspapers.
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SPEAKER_01: My dad would take them to the office and print them and bring them home,
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SPEAKER_01: you know,
7:52
SPEAKER_01: make copies of them.
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And,
7:54
and,
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uh,
7:55
so it all kind of,
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I mean,
7:56
I've always known,
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um,
7:58
but probably the bigger thing
8:01
SPEAKER_01: You can know that as a child without knowing what's really involved.
8:04
SPEAKER_01: And of course,
8:04
SPEAKER_01: we all go through the period where we try to figure out,
8:07
SPEAKER_01: well,
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what am I passionate about and how does that intersect with how
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I'm going to earn a
8:11
SPEAKER_01: living?
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And of course,
8:13
my parents were very pragmatic and half of me is very pragmatic
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too.
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SPEAKER_01: But how do you make money doing this?
8:20
SPEAKER_01: Well,
8:20
they were both kind of pushing me towards kind of
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communications and maybe possibly
8:25
SPEAKER_01: journalism,
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SPEAKER_01: things where you knew that there would be a career waiting for you.
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SPEAKER_01: And so that direction in college,
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SPEAKER_01: I studied journalism and I worked in journalism for a while,
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SPEAKER_01: but then I also went into like corporate communication,
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SPEAKER_01: corporate communications and eventually technical communications.
8:43
SPEAKER_01: And,
8:44
SPEAKER_01: um,
8:45
SPEAKER_01: but I,
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SPEAKER_01: I write the writing I did on and off for many years and,
8:50
SPEAKER_01: you know,
8:50
SPEAKER_01: I'm almost 60 now.
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So there was a long period of time where,
8:55
um,
8:55
I just,
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I don't know,
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as a young,
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SPEAKER_01: As a young adult, I got pretty committed to it for a while.
9:00
SPEAKER_01: And then as life kind of got harder,
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I kind of dropped out of it and became kind of more
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relationship and career
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SPEAKER_01: focused,
9:06
SPEAKER_01: you know,
9:06
SPEAKER_01: all the things.
9:07
And it kind of got away from me because I,
9:11
at some point along the way,
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I lost the sense of...
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SPEAKER_01: It was kind of sad.
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SPEAKER_01: I didn't realize it was happening,
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but I lost this sense of that it's okay to write stories that
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aren't literature,
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SPEAKER_01: that aren't important,
9:29
SPEAKER_01: like,
9:30
SPEAKER_01: you
9:34
SPEAKER_01: And so I had this crisis of like, what kind of a writer am I?
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SPEAKER_01: And that question, I couldn't answer it for a really long time.
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And so long that I started saying,
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am I really a writer to,
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you know,
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to myself?
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SPEAKER_01: Like, I don't know.
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SPEAKER_01: I don't know what I want to write.
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SPEAKER_01: I don't know what I'm supposed to write.
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But I had somehow I had this idea that writing fantasy or
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speculative fiction in
9:57
SPEAKER_01: general just wasn't a real thing to do.
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SPEAKER_01: I don't know where that came from.
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SPEAKER_01: So there were a lot of years of kind of avoiding it,
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SPEAKER_01: but but the whole time feeling really sad that I wasn't doing it,
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SPEAKER_01: you know,
10:11
and that that I never really had the energy or the time with my
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regular career.
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SPEAKER_01: You know,
10:17
SPEAKER_01: it would be too it would be too hard,
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SPEAKER_01: like putting in so many hours at work to come home.
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And then,
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you know,
10:23
for me,
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I know lots of people do it,
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but I really struggled with it.
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SPEAKER_01: Um,
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SPEAKER_01: and then,
10:28
SPEAKER_01: uh,
10:29
SPEAKER_01: right around the time I was,
10:31
SPEAKER_01: I guess I was,
10:31
SPEAKER_01: I think I was pregnant with my daughter.
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SPEAKER_01: I started up again and I just started writing,
10:38
SPEAKER_01: uh,
10:38
SPEAKER_01: kind of,
10:39
SPEAKER_01: uh,
10:39
SPEAKER_01: kind of sci-fi fantasy stuff,
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SPEAKER_01: like short stories that I tried entering some contests.
10:44
And then after my daughter was born,
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I had,
10:47
um,
10:48
started working on one of the stories that I
10:51
SPEAKER_01: people in my life all seem to like,
10:52
SPEAKER_01: I,
10:53
SPEAKER_01: I was really into,
10:54
SPEAKER_01: and I decided to expand that into a novel.
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SPEAKER_01: Um,
10:58
SPEAKER_01: and I should also say that what was going on at this time too,
11:00
SPEAKER_01: was I was working,
11:01
SPEAKER_01: uh,
11:02
SPEAKER_01: freelance on doing marketing,
11:04
SPEAKER_01: uh,
11:05
SPEAKER_01: copy.
11:05
SPEAKER_01: And the woman that I worked with was, uh, just a
11:11
she had cancer and she,
11:13
you know,
11:14
she died within a year or two of her diagnosis.
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SPEAKER_01: And that was,
11:19
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
11:19
SPEAKER_01: I know this is story is kind of story is almost cliche at this point,
11:22
SPEAKER_01: but it was a very big wake up call for me.
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SPEAKER_01: Like, I don't know how much time I have, what, you know,
11:28
SPEAKER_01: what do I need to do in the time that I have left?
11:32
SPEAKER_01: And it was kind of like,
11:33
maybe I need to do that thing that I've been telling myself my
11:36
whole life I wanted
11:37
SPEAKER_01: to do.
11:38
SPEAKER_01: And so all of this stuff kind of came together.
11:40
And that first book that I wrote in that time period ended up
11:45
doing well in some contests.
11:47
SPEAKER_01: And I also, that was the first book that I had published.
11:50
SPEAKER_01: So, and it's all just kind of gone from there.
11:54
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
11:54
SPEAKER_00: I mean, the,
11:56
SPEAKER_00: It is.
11:56
SPEAKER_00: Like you said, it's cliche, but it's the biggest wake up call.
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SPEAKER_00: That's nothing like this for us to be like, what are we doing?
12:03
SPEAKER_00: It gives everything a perspective.
12:06
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
12:06
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
12:06
And the whole memento mori when I when I recently traveled to
12:10
Scotland and I visited a lot of.
12:12
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
12:13
SPEAKER_01: You know, Kirkyards and all of the tombstones.
12:15
SPEAKER_01: They have skulls and the memento mori on the tombstones.
12:19
SPEAKER_01: And like, that's what that's all about, right?
12:22
SPEAKER_01: You're going to die.
12:23
SPEAKER_01: We all are going to.
12:24
SPEAKER_01: What are you going to do with what the time you've got left?
12:27
SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes.
12:28
SPEAKER_00: There was a church in Orkney that I visited, the cathedral.
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SPEAKER_00: It was everywhere, Memento Mori.
12:34
SPEAKER_00: And it was like, OK, I get the message.
12:36
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
12:38
SPEAKER_00: It's true.
12:39
SPEAKER_00: You know, what are we going to do?
12:40
SPEAKER_00: And there it was.
12:41
SPEAKER_00: It came back to you.
12:42
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
12:44
SPEAKER_00: But in your first book, that was more sort of sci-fi.
12:48
And then kind of what led you then to write more sort of the
12:51
Gothic books?
12:53
SPEAKER_00: Romance.
12:54
I think I think the truth is that I was really always more a
12:58
fantasy girl.
12:59
SPEAKER_01: I do enjoy sci fi,
13:01
but I started writing sci fi because I had it in my head that
13:05
it was going to be
13:06
SPEAKER_01: more publishable.
13:08
SPEAKER_01: I don't know why,
13:09
but I just thought that I'd have an easier time publishing a
13:12
science fiction story.
13:14
SPEAKER_01: And because I do like science fiction and I
13:19
SPEAKER_01: And I had written some as a young person.
13:21
SPEAKER_01: I just started there.
13:23
And the first three books that I wrote were all science
13:27
fiction,
13:28
science fiction romance.
13:29
SPEAKER_01: So they all had a romantic story, too.
13:32
SPEAKER_01: And then after that,
13:34
SPEAKER_01: after realizing that science fiction doesn't sell great either,
13:40
SPEAKER_01: I basically was like,
13:43
SPEAKER_01: I might as well write what I really want to write.
13:46
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
13:47
SPEAKER_01: And I mean,
13:47
SPEAKER_01: as much as you want to say that,
13:49
SPEAKER_01: well,
13:49
SPEAKER_01: I've just always written exactly what I wanted to write.
13:51
SPEAKER_01: You do have to have some consideration if you want to publish.
13:55
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
13:56
SPEAKER_01: not everybody writes to publish,
13:58
SPEAKER_01: but if you do,
13:59
SPEAKER_01: you have some consideration toward the market.
14:01
And at that point,
14:02
though,
14:02
I was just like,
14:03
okay,
14:04
it's time to just do what I want to do.
14:06
SPEAKER_01: And so that's when I...
14:08
SPEAKER_01: So I started writing fantasy.
14:09
SPEAKER_01: And as for my first fantasy books were not,
14:13
SPEAKER_01: I wouldn't classify them as kind of cozy gothics,
14:15
SPEAKER_01: although they were same time period.
14:16
SPEAKER_01: I wrote a series called The Fairy Rehistory that are set in Victorian,
14:23
SPEAKER_01: like alternate Victorian Ireland.
14:25
SPEAKER_01: And they're based on Irish mythology.
14:28
But they're more epic in scale,
14:30
you know,
14:30
less of the kind of cozy small story.
14:33
SPEAKER_01: And I enjoyed writing those.
14:34
SPEAKER_01: But after I finished those...
14:37
I just had this urge to write smaller stories because I like to
14:44
read epic fantasy
14:45
SPEAKER_01: and I enjoyed writing it too.
14:46
SPEAKER_01: But I don't know, I was just ready to try something different, I guess.
14:49
SPEAKER_01: And the first story,
14:50
the first idea that came to me when I started thinking along
14:52
those lines was the
14:54
SPEAKER_01: Jane Eyre,
14:54
SPEAKER_01: you know,
14:55
SPEAKER_01: retellings for Salt and Broom.
14:57
I just,
14:58
one day I was trying,
14:59
I think this was even,
15:00
was this during the pandemic?
15:01
SPEAKER_01: I think it was.
15:03
SPEAKER_01: And I was just starting to think about what I wanted to write next.
15:07
SPEAKER_01: I started thinking,
15:08
SPEAKER_01: you know,
15:08
SPEAKER_01: there have been other retellings of Jane Eyre,
15:10
but I don't think anybody has ever told her story with Jane
15:16
being a witch.
15:16
And to me,
15:18
it just seemed like an obvious thing because the original has
15:22
so many witchy stories.
15:25
Yeah,
15:25
I can overtones and undertones and references and,
15:29
you know,
15:29
just like tons.
15:31
SPEAKER_01: And so and I was I was interested in studying witchcraft anyway.
15:36
SPEAKER_01: And so I just like took it on and.
15:40
SPEAKER_01: All of that resulted in Salt and Broom.
15:42
SPEAKER_01: So and that's, you know, I've been writing the same.
15:45
SPEAKER_01: I think there's the stories I'm writing are different from each other,
15:49
SPEAKER_01: but,
15:49
SPEAKER_01: you know,
15:50
SPEAKER_01: set in the same,
15:51
SPEAKER_01: essentially the same kind of world,
15:53
SPEAKER_01: a Victorian setting with...
15:57
SPEAKER_01: Magic that's not big epic magic, but smaller magic.
16:00
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, and yeah, here we are.
16:04
SPEAKER_00: Here we are.
16:04
SPEAKER_00: Well,
16:05
SPEAKER_00: because I've discovered your book,
16:06
SPEAKER_00: actually,
16:07
SPEAKER_00: I guess in total,
16:08
SPEAKER_00: I'm going backwards in your,
16:10
SPEAKER_00: if you will,
16:10
SPEAKER_00: in your book catalog.
16:11
SPEAKER_00: Right.
16:12
SPEAKER_00: Because I started with Tea and Alchemy.
16:14
SPEAKER_00: And then I went to, like, I read them back to back.
16:16
SPEAKER_00: Tea and Alchemy, Grim Curiosities, love the name.
16:21
SPEAKER_00: And then Salt and Broom and...
16:24
SPEAKER_00: I was like, oh, then I realized I'm reading them like in reverse order.
16:29
SPEAKER_00: But yes,
16:31
SPEAKER_00: and that's what stood out to me,
16:32
SPEAKER_00: the sort of the magic that's in there,
16:35
SPEAKER_00: but it's not epic.
16:36
SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
16:38
SPEAKER_00: But before we dive into that,
16:40
I know like I'm kind of here between thinking so many questions
16:43
I could ask.
16:44
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
16:46
SPEAKER_00: But it was good to know like your origin, how you came into writing.
16:49
SPEAKER_00: You were always writing was there,
16:51
but then having this experience with your co-worker friend
16:56
passing and sort of that
16:58
SPEAKER_00: call to like do it.
16:59
SPEAKER_00: And then you start writing and then you're like,
17:01
SPEAKER_00: might as well write what I really want to write,
17:03
SPEAKER_00: which is more of that sort of.
17:05
SPEAKER_00: Would you call it like Victorian sort of fantasy?
17:09
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, historical, kind of gothic historical fantasy.
17:13
The previous series was maybe a little bit more gaslight
17:18
fantasy,
17:19
the fairy re-history.
17:21
SPEAKER_01: But yeah,
17:22
SPEAKER_01: now we've kind of been referring,
17:24
people seem to kind of refer to these new books as like cozy
17:27
gothic romances or,
17:28
SPEAKER_01: you know,
17:29
SPEAKER_01: cozy gothics.
17:29
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
17:30
cozy gothics but it's interesting you look I can in hearing the
17:35
story I can hear
17:36
sort of the going from like oh am I writing should I write can
17:39
I do this am I not
17:40
writing the the serious literature and then I was thinking
17:45
about the great American
17:46
SPEAKER_00: novel kind of thing yeah and then coming down to like you know what
17:50
SPEAKER_00: I'm going to write what I like.
17:51
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
17:51
SPEAKER_00: Let's just go here.
17:52
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
17:53
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
17:54
SPEAKER_01: And that was pivotal for me just from a personal perspective,
17:57
SPEAKER_01: too,
17:57
SPEAKER_01: because it was not just my writing.
17:59
SPEAKER_01: It was in everything.
18:01
Like why I really opened up my mind to and kind of my life to
18:08
things that were
18:09
always interesting to me that I always kind of pushed aside as
18:11
not being grown up.
18:14
SPEAKER_01: Like witchcraft, you know, just like everyday magic.
18:18
SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, I don't know.
18:21
SPEAKER_01: It opened up my world in a lot of ways.
18:24
SPEAKER_00: But in a way,
18:25
SPEAKER_00: what I'm also hearing,
18:26
SPEAKER_00: because maybe I'm reflecting my own experience,
18:29
SPEAKER_00: it is a distillation to what really is vital to you.
18:36
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
18:36
SPEAKER_00: That lights you up.
18:38
SPEAKER_01: Yes, I would agree with that.
18:39
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
18:39
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that brings you joy.
18:40
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
18:42
SPEAKER_00: Doesn't matter.
18:43
But here comes the bigger question before we record what we
18:46
were talking about is
18:47
SPEAKER_00: how does this that the things that bring us joy,
18:50
SPEAKER_00: that is your talent,
18:52
the gift you're bringing kind of mesh with what's happening in
18:57
the world that feels
18:59
so dramatic doesn't even begin to conceptualize you know it's
19:05
uh every day i guess
19:06
most people wake up thinking is this the day is this the last
19:10
you know the end of
19:11
the world or what's happening yeah yeah that's a that can be
19:16
really a challenging
19:17
question um when you when you look at what you do and compared
19:22
you know against the
19:24
SPEAKER_01: backdrop of what's going on in the world right now and
19:27
SPEAKER_01: It can be easy to feel like how small it is,
19:33
SPEAKER_01: that it's not important,
19:36
SPEAKER_01: that it's not,
19:38
SPEAKER_01: maybe it's frivolous or self-indulgent.
19:42
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
19:43
SPEAKER_01: Um,
19:44
SPEAKER_01: how,
19:44
SPEAKER_01: uh,
19:45
SPEAKER_01: it can feel that way in the face of,
19:47
SPEAKER_01: you know,
19:48
SPEAKER_01: tragedies and,
19:49
SPEAKER_01: you know,
19:50
SPEAKER_01: horrific things going on.
19:51
SPEAKER_01: Um, why am I doing this?
19:53
SPEAKER_01: I should be doing something that helps more than this.
19:56
SPEAKER_01: Those kinds of questions come up.
19:58
SPEAKER_01: And, and, um, so for me, and this is a question, uh,
20:04
SPEAKER_01: it really gets right back to what we talked about at the beginning,
20:07
SPEAKER_01: like asking yourself,
20:08
SPEAKER_01: does this have,
20:09
SPEAKER_01: what value does this have?
20:10
SPEAKER_01: Does this have value?
20:12
SPEAKER_01: And when I first started talking,
20:14
SPEAKER_01: I talked about how like,
20:15
SPEAKER_01: oh,
20:15
SPEAKER_01: I've got to find my voice as an author.
20:18
SPEAKER_01: I got to find what I'm going to write for,
20:19
SPEAKER_01: you know,
20:20
SPEAKER_01: as a grownup for what my like serious stories are going to be.
20:24
SPEAKER_01: So the same,
20:26
SPEAKER_01: I was doing the same thing there,
20:27
SPEAKER_01: like devaluing what interested me as a writer and what really,
20:31
SPEAKER_01: um,
20:32
SPEAKER_01: you know, kind of lit up my world as a, as a writer devaluing it there.
20:36
And so here now,
20:38
currently I've,
20:39
you know,
20:39
recently found myself doing the same thing.
20:42
SPEAKER_01: Like, what does this matter?
20:44
SPEAKER_01: And,
20:44
SPEAKER_01: um,
20:45
SPEAKER_01: for me,
20:46
SPEAKER_01: I've,
20:46
SPEAKER_01: it's been really important because it's something that I needed,
20:50
SPEAKER_01: regardless of what's going on in the world right now,
20:52
SPEAKER_01: that I needed to examine personally and to understand like,
20:56
SPEAKER_01: um,
20:59
To like be gentle with myself and and and be on and be honest
21:03
about what I'm doing.
21:04
SPEAKER_01: And when I say be honest,
21:06
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
21:07
SPEAKER_01: not down,
21:08
SPEAKER_01: not downplaying,
21:09
SPEAKER_01: you know,
21:09
SPEAKER_01: and I started to realize like,
21:14
SPEAKER_01: and this has been I've heard this from readers,
21:16
SPEAKER_01: too.
21:16
SPEAKER_01: And so that's really helped.
21:19
SPEAKER_01: Sometimes.
21:20
You're the one thing that they could stand to do one night
21:26
because they were scared
21:28
SPEAKER_01: or they were just so,
21:31
SPEAKER_01: you know,
21:31
SPEAKER_01: kind of beaten down by things.
21:34
SPEAKER_01: And you were the one thing that they could that they could do,
21:38
SPEAKER_01: you know,
21:38
was sit down with some tea or a glass of wine and read your
21:41
book and go someplace
21:43
SPEAKER_01: that allowed them to just to read kind of.
21:50
SPEAKER_01: heal a little bit.
21:51
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
21:52
SPEAKER_01: Is that a pretentious word?
21:53
SPEAKER_01: But,
21:55
SPEAKER_01: you know,
21:55
SPEAKER_01: to,
21:56
SPEAKER_01: to find some healing,
21:57
SPEAKER_01: to find some soothing,
21:58
SPEAKER_01: to find it,
21:59
SPEAKER_01: to find some quiet and before they have to go back out into it again.
22:04
SPEAKER_01: And I, it began to become real to me that
22:10
SPEAKER_01: this has, this does have value.
22:12
SPEAKER_01: It may not be obvious value.
22:15
But,
22:15
and I said this earlier when we were talking,
22:16
but books can be lifelines.
22:18
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, lifelines.
22:19
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
22:21
SPEAKER_00: In a way, it's a reflection of your own characters.
22:24
SPEAKER_00: So the three books I read, they work with that small magic.
22:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
22:28
SPEAKER_00: The magic of the everyday.
22:30
SPEAKER_00: It's not epic.
22:31
SPEAKER_00: Right.
22:32
SPEAKER_00: But it's the small,
22:33
consistent application and practice of that magic and their
22:37
engagement with it that
22:39
SPEAKER_00: helps.
22:40
heal in the situation that in the book yeah but I think it's
22:44
just in life too you
22:46
know the little bit that we do it's several thoughts are coming
22:50
to my mind the
22:51
first one I think it's actually Tolkien and it's making me
22:55
think of the fellowship
22:56
SPEAKER_00: of the ring because who carries the ring the hobbits yeah yeah
23:03
SPEAKER_00: In my mind, who's the real hero?
23:05
SPEAKER_00: Sam, you know, helps Frodo.
23:08
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
23:09
SPEAKER_00: And long ago, I had seen an interview with Tolkien's son saying,
23:17
alluded to his father saying that he there's this escaping in
23:22
the story like he the
23:24
SPEAKER_00: story was given to him.
23:25
SPEAKER_00: He went someplace and it was given to him.
23:28
And I think when we read a book or listen to a story,
23:32
we're being transported somewhere else.
23:34
SPEAKER_00: Mm hmm.
23:35
SPEAKER_00: That it may be dismissed as escapism,
23:38
SPEAKER_00: especially if it's romance,
23:39
SPEAKER_00: you know,
23:40
SPEAKER_00: tends to be the fluff thing.
23:42
SPEAKER_00: But it is a place where perhaps we rest,
23:46
SPEAKER_00: we heal,
23:47
SPEAKER_00: we learn something,
23:48
SPEAKER_00: then we can come back,
23:49
SPEAKER_00: like you just said,
23:50
SPEAKER_00: and engage with what is happening.
23:53
SPEAKER_00: Right.
23:53
Right.
23:54
SPEAKER_00: The other part is very personal to me.
23:56
SPEAKER_00: I was always more of a nonfiction reader.
24:01
SPEAKER_00: Mm hmm.
24:02
SPEAKER_00: But last year I couldn't.
24:05
SPEAKER_00: I just could not read nonfiction.
24:07
SPEAKER_00: I only romance novels were my lifeline.
24:10
SPEAKER_00: I was reading one after the other until I finally realized,
24:14
SPEAKER_00: oh,
24:14
SPEAKER_00: this is helping me deal with burnout and grief.
24:17
SPEAKER_00: Mm hmm.
24:18
And it was these stories and each story was very it was I was
24:23
just always surprised
24:25
SPEAKER_00: how I would pick a book and think,
24:26
SPEAKER_00: OK,
24:27
SPEAKER_00: cover looks good.
24:28
SPEAKER_00: Synopsis looks fine.
24:30
SPEAKER_00: But once I was in it,
24:31
a lot of the depth was in the story that was not advertised in
24:35
the synopsis at all.
24:36
SPEAKER_00: Right.
24:37
SPEAKER_00: And.
24:38
Those books helped me tackle and deal with grief because a lot
24:44
of the subject is grief.
24:46
And so I all of a sudden had to look at romance from a
24:50
different lens and say,
24:51
SPEAKER_00: oh,
24:51
SPEAKER_00: this is the healing fluff.
24:53
SPEAKER_00: You know, my thesis for counseling degree was the healing power of fluff.
24:59
SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, here it is.
25:00
SPEAKER_00: It's the healing power of the so-called fluff.
25:03
SPEAKER_00: So it does help.
25:06
SPEAKER_00: And perhaps...
25:07
SPEAKER_00: And the other part,
25:08
the other thought I have is this idea that we are like a fabric
25:15
and that we are,
25:15
SPEAKER_00: each one of us is a node in this fabric.
25:19
SPEAKER_00: So by readers coming to contact with your books,
25:23
they're touching on your node and you have no control how far
25:28
what you've been
25:28
SPEAKER_00: putting out will go,
25:29
SPEAKER_00: will spread through the net.
25:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
25:31
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
25:32
But it will spread,
25:34
you know,
25:34
and here I am,
25:35
like,
25:35
because I found your book,
25:37
Tea and Alchemy.
25:38
SPEAKER_00: I was like, this is a good title, Tea and Alchemy.
25:41
SPEAKER_00: Nice cover.
25:42
SPEAKER_00: Sign me up.
25:43
SPEAKER_00: And boom, you know, it became three books.
25:46
SPEAKER_00: And here we are having this conversation.
25:48
SPEAKER_00: And now we don't know where this is going to go.
25:50
SPEAKER_00: Right.
25:50
SPEAKER_00: Right.
25:51
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
25:51
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
25:52
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I agree.
25:53
SPEAKER_01: I agree with all of that.
25:55
SPEAKER_01: And, and it's, it's interesting to me.
26:00
SPEAKER_01: So many,
26:01
SPEAKER_01: like,
26:01
SPEAKER_01: readers of all,
26:03
SPEAKER_01: like all genres,
26:05
SPEAKER_01: they find,
26:07
SPEAKER_01: they find healing and they find comfort.
26:09
SPEAKER_01: Not,
26:09
SPEAKER_01: you know,
26:10
SPEAKER_01: it can be like,
26:11
SPEAKER_01: there's so many,
26:12
SPEAKER_01: like horror readers that even,
26:14
SPEAKER_01: you know,
26:15
SPEAKER_01: books that I have to take in small doses,
26:17
SPEAKER_01: because I find them stressful.
26:18
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
26:20
SPEAKER_00: I don't have any courage to read them, but more power to them.
26:24
SPEAKER_01: I like being scared, and I like to read it a little bit.
26:27
SPEAKER_01: I can just kind of dip my foot in it.
26:30
SPEAKER_01: Otherwise, it's a little bit too much for me.
26:31
SPEAKER_01: But some readers,
26:33
that's where they go when they need to be recharged and when
26:36
they need to feel
26:39
SPEAKER_01: their own personal power and agency again.
26:41
SPEAKER_01: And I think romance...
26:46
in particular,
26:47
for me anyway,
26:48
like there's a couple of things going on there.
26:52
SPEAKER_01: Like you have, for one thing, you're always getting, um,
26:59
SPEAKER_01: Well,
26:59
SPEAKER_01: you know,
26:59
SPEAKER_01: maybe not every romance,
27:00
SPEAKER_01: but for most romances,
27:01
I think you're always getting to see a connection between two
27:05
people that is about
27:08
SPEAKER_01: much more than romantic love.
27:10
SPEAKER_01: It's always respectful.
27:13
SPEAKER_01: It's always supportive.
27:16
SPEAKER_01: And I think those things are healing.
27:19
SPEAKER_01: And to see that kind of a relationship, to see people...
27:24
SPEAKER_01: being gentle with each other and taking care of each other and,
27:27
SPEAKER_01: and protect,
27:28
SPEAKER_01: you know,
27:29
SPEAKER_01: protection and protectiveness is really big in romance.
27:31
SPEAKER_01: Right.
27:33
SPEAKER_01: I think that too is,
27:34
SPEAKER_01: is healing and that,
27:35
SPEAKER_01: um,
27:36
SPEAKER_01: we need to,
27:37
SPEAKER_01: we want to feel safe,
27:38
SPEAKER_01: you know,
27:38
SPEAKER_01: and,
27:39
SPEAKER_01: and we get that from these stories.
27:41
SPEAKER_01: And then also, um, we are as, as women, um,
27:48
Romance,
27:49
especially historical romance,
27:50
you often see women with very,
27:54
very limited agency.
27:57
And then through the course of and I think this is true for my
28:01
from my books,
28:02
SPEAKER_01: like through the course of the story.
28:05
they find ways to have agency within the social constructs that
28:08
they live with,
28:09
right?
28:10
SPEAKER_01: And they will start to gently push back against those things.
28:14
SPEAKER_01: But at the same time,
28:15
SPEAKER_01: they find ways to have their agency,
28:19
SPEAKER_01: even though they live with certain rules.
28:24
SPEAKER_01: And they find partners who appreciate their agency.
28:31
SPEAKER_01: And so I think a lot of these things...
28:35
SPEAKER_01: We're lucky if we see them in real life.
28:42
SPEAKER_01: But to read them,
28:43
SPEAKER_01: to spend time in these stories,
28:47
SPEAKER_01: I think that's,
28:48
SPEAKER_01: for me,
28:48
SPEAKER_01: why they can feel so soothing and so healing.
28:51
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
28:52
SPEAKER_00: Thanks.
28:53
SPEAKER_00: So three thoughts here coming to one,
28:56
SPEAKER_00: coming back to your own origin story of your parents saying,
28:59
SPEAKER_00: oh,
28:59
SPEAKER_00: you got to,
29:00
SPEAKER_00: you know,
29:00
SPEAKER_00: be practical as well.
29:02
SPEAKER_00: You need a career.
29:03
SPEAKER_00: And I was just thinking the three heroines that I read, they all work.
29:07
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
29:09
SPEAKER_00: Mina works at the tea shop, you know, Grim Curiosity.
29:13
SPEAKER_00: She's running the shop.
29:14
SPEAKER_00: Right.
29:15
SPEAKER_00: And of course, Jane Eyre, totally working girl.
29:18
SPEAKER_00: She's working.
29:19
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
29:19
SPEAKER_00: Yep.
29:20
And so they all had their magic and was in a very structured
29:24
society with such limitations.
29:28
All of these characters,
29:29
they're working,
29:31
they're bringing,
29:31
you know,
29:32
and they're engaging with.
29:36
That's the thing I really appreciated about them is they kept
29:40
their curiosity and
29:41
SPEAKER_00: their compassion,
29:43
SPEAKER_00: even within such.
29:45
SPEAKER_00: pressure, you know, they couldn't do this, they couldn't go do that.
29:49
SPEAKER_00: They couldn't walk alone,
29:50
SPEAKER_00: you know,
29:51
SPEAKER_00: and but yes,
29:53
SPEAKER_00: and the male counterpart,
29:55
SPEAKER_00: the partner respects that.
29:59
And the other thing I think,
30:00
too,
30:01
stories give us an element of possibility.
30:07
SPEAKER_00: And here's the thing that I find such a horrible criticism,
30:12
SPEAKER_00: especially to romance,
30:13
SPEAKER_00: when people say it's fairy tales.
30:14
SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, if you say that, you have not read fairy tales.
30:19
SPEAKER_00: Right.
30:20
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
30:21
SPEAKER_00: Because a lot of fairy tales, except the Disney stuff.
30:24
SPEAKER_00: Right.
30:24
SPEAKER_00: They're pretty grim.
30:26
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
30:26
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's right.
30:28
SPEAKER_00: So I feel like they were not really for children, but.
30:31
SPEAKER_00: No, no.
30:33
SPEAKER_00: Originally, no.
30:33
SPEAKER_00: And.
30:35
SPEAKER_00: And so this idea that things end happily is, oh, that's infantile.
30:42
SPEAKER_00: That's children.
30:43
SPEAKER_02: Right.
30:44
SPEAKER_00: And it really annoys me because in a way,
30:47
SPEAKER_00: psychologically,
30:48
SPEAKER_00: you need to have a sense of completion,
30:50
SPEAKER_00: a sense of possibility that something will get resolved.
30:54
SPEAKER_00: Right.
30:54
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
30:55
SPEAKER_00: It feels to me like a rehearsal,
30:56
SPEAKER_00: perhaps in the mind,
30:57
SPEAKER_00: like athletes envision themselves winning the race.
31:00
SPEAKER_00: Right.
31:01
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
31:01
SPEAKER_00: I feel like it's a little bit.
31:03
SPEAKER_00: It also gives us maybe not exactly like in the stories,
31:08
SPEAKER_00: but an example of possibilities of engagement,
31:11
SPEAKER_00: the respect that you're talking about.
31:13
SPEAKER_00: Right.
31:14
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
31:14
SPEAKER_00: The way to engage with power systems that are oppressive.
31:18
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
31:19
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
31:20
SPEAKER_00: I think stories as you as a storyteller,
31:24
SPEAKER_00: you know,
31:25
SPEAKER_00: in the good tradition of the bards,
31:28
SPEAKER_00: you know,
31:30
SPEAKER_00: are helping people relax,
31:34
SPEAKER_00: maybe,
31:34
SPEAKER_00: you know,
31:36
SPEAKER_00: slip away a little bit from their reality,
31:39
SPEAKER_00: but also teaching us something different that's possible.
31:42
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
31:43
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
31:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
31:45
SPEAKER_01: I think so.
31:46
SPEAKER_01: It's it's.
31:49
I've had to have a lot of years before I can really understand
31:53
that and see it that way.
31:55
SPEAKER_01: One thing interesting to me about romance,
31:56
SPEAKER_01: too,
31:57
SPEAKER_01: that this is a slight,
31:58
SPEAKER_01: slight tangent,
31:59
but it always because that that criticism comes up so often
32:03
where people talk about
32:04
SPEAKER_01: how it's unrealistic and how its relationships aren't really like that.
32:08
SPEAKER_01: And I think that people forget, though.
32:11
SPEAKER_01: Like romance is exclusively,
32:15
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
32:16
SPEAKER_01: you know,
32:16
SPEAKER_01: with some variation,
32:17
SPEAKER_01: almost exclusively stories about people who are meeting,
32:23
SPEAKER_01: courting,
32:25
SPEAKER_01: you know,
32:25
SPEAKER_01: dating,
32:25
SPEAKER_01: whatever,
32:26
SPEAKER_01: and discovering each other and themselves and then falling in love with
32:34
And the story closes with either a long-term relationship or a
32:39
marriage,
32:40
sometimes a baby.
32:44
SPEAKER_01: Those that period of any relationship,
32:48
SPEAKER_01: it is it is not unrealistic to paint that is very,
32:53
SPEAKER_01: very exciting,
32:55
SPEAKER_01: very happy,
32:56
SPEAKER_01: very different from what the course of the whole relationship will be,
33:00
SPEAKER_01: because obviously you can't be on that high for your entire relationship.
33:04
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
33:05
SPEAKER_01: But so I,
33:07
SPEAKER_01: again,
33:07
SPEAKER_01: this is a little bit of a tangent,
33:08
SPEAKER_01: but I always,
33:09
SPEAKER_01: when I hear that criticism,
33:10
SPEAKER_01: I'm always like,
33:11
SPEAKER_01: but no,
33:12
SPEAKER_01: you're,
33:12
SPEAKER_01: that's not true.
33:13
It's,
33:13
it is like,
33:14
look back to the beginning of any decent relationship that
33:18
you've had.
33:19
SPEAKER_01: Was that realistic?
33:20
Well,
33:20
it was for that time of the relationship,
33:22
you know,
33:22
that,
33:23
that is,
33:24
that's the way it goes.
33:25
And romance writers,
33:26
they choose to depict that time because it is such a wonderful
33:30
time.
33:31
SPEAKER_01: And we all like reliving that, you know?
33:34
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
33:35
So I think the criticism of it being unrealistic,
33:39
you know,
33:40
is flawed in a lot of ways.
33:41
SPEAKER_01: But that one in particular always is striking to me because,
33:44
SPEAKER_01: you know,
33:44
we're not we're not telling a story of a 20 year marriage and
33:47
all the things that
33:48
SPEAKER_01: can happen or go wrong in a 20 year marriage.
33:50
We're talking about the beginning,
33:51
you know,
33:52
everything's fresh and exciting.
33:54
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
33:56
SPEAKER_00: Anyway, no, it's true.
33:57
SPEAKER_00: And it's it is exactly the meeting of the other.
34:01
SPEAKER_00: Right.
34:02
SPEAKER_00: So where all the attraction and the challenges,
34:05
SPEAKER_00: of course,
34:06
SPEAKER_00: there's the,
34:07
SPEAKER_00: you know,
34:07
SPEAKER_00: 100 pages before the end,
34:08
SPEAKER_00: they're going to break up in some way.
34:10
SPEAKER_00: Right.
34:12
SPEAKER_00: But it's exactly the arc.
34:14
SPEAKER_00: It's almost like the romantic,
34:15
SPEAKER_00: heroic or heroine's journey of like you meet,
34:18
SPEAKER_00: you sort of you face the other challenge.
34:22
SPEAKER_00: You grow as a person because that's the whole point.
34:25
SPEAKER_00: You can expand enough to receive the other.
34:28
SPEAKER_00: It's a process.
34:30
SPEAKER_00: It needs to happen.
34:33
SPEAKER_00: And all this jadedness is not helping matters, you know, at all.
34:41
SPEAKER_00: it has very long repercussions.
34:44
SPEAKER_00: People are not dating, you know, I know, I know they're not meeting.
34:49
SPEAKER_00: So it's, it's, it's a big thing.
34:53
So I think in some ways it might not feel like in the grand
34:59
scheme of things of all
35:01
SPEAKER_00: the things that are happening in the world,
35:04
SPEAKER_00: is this enough?
35:06
SPEAKER_00: But it is, I feel at least personally, it is a,
35:11
SPEAKER_00: a point of reconnection and hope.
35:15
SPEAKER_00: Maybe rehearsal for staying curious to the other.
35:19
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
35:20
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
35:21
And reminders about the importance of things like empathy and
35:27
protecting those who
35:28
SPEAKER_01: need protection,
35:28
SPEAKER_01: support,
35:29
SPEAKER_01: you know,
35:29
SPEAKER_01: supporting people when they're,
35:30
SPEAKER_01: when they're hurting,
35:31
SPEAKER_01: when they're,
35:32
SPEAKER_01: you know,
35:32
SPEAKER_01: whatever.
35:33
Like,
35:34
I think,
35:34
I mean,
35:35
not that we,
35:36
I mean,
35:37
I think we all need those reminders,
35:38
right?
35:38
SPEAKER_01: Even, you know, we're, we're good people.
35:40
SPEAKER_01: We still, it's still...
35:43
SPEAKER_01: Uh,
35:43
SPEAKER_01: and again,
35:44
SPEAKER_01: the word healing again,
35:45
like seeing those aspects of relationships and remembering that
35:49
that's what we
35:50
SPEAKER_01: need.
35:51
SPEAKER_01: That's why we need relationships and,
35:53
SPEAKER_01: and community is because that is what we get from each other,
35:57
SPEAKER_01: you know,
35:58
SPEAKER_01: understanding and listening,
36:00
SPEAKER_01: um,
36:01
SPEAKER_01: you know,
36:01
SPEAKER_01: empathy,
36:02
SPEAKER_01: um,
36:03
SPEAKER_01: support all,
36:04
SPEAKER_01: all of those,
36:05
SPEAKER_01: all of those things that are always themes and,
36:08
SPEAKER_01: and,
36:08
SPEAKER_01: and in romance novels in particular,
36:09
SPEAKER_01: but,
36:10
SPEAKER_01: but,
36:10
SPEAKER_01: um,
36:11
SPEAKER_01: And just as a reminder, too, that that's that's normal.
36:16
SPEAKER_01: That's normal.
36:17
SPEAKER_01: Right.
36:17
Like everyone can identify with that because we can feel that
36:20
and we know that that's normal.
36:22
This other idea of taking what you can take and and even if it
36:28
hurts people and
36:29
SPEAKER_01: that's not normal.
36:30
SPEAKER_01: No.
36:31
SPEAKER_01: Nobody wants to read about that unless it loses in the end,
36:37
SPEAKER_01: you know,
36:37
SPEAKER_01: unless it's defeated by by,
36:39
SPEAKER_01: you know,
36:39
SPEAKER_01: good people.
36:40
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
36:42
SPEAKER_00: And it's not I like to think it's not creatively generative.
36:47
SPEAKER_00: It's happening.
36:49
SPEAKER_00: I don't think it's the full history of humanity,
36:51
SPEAKER_00: because I think when you're going back to death.
36:55
SPEAKER_00: When you're dying,
36:56
SPEAKER_00: you're not if you still kind of sound the mind,
37:00
SPEAKER_00: you're not going to say that's what you wanted.
37:02
SPEAKER_00: You wanted to make more millions.
37:04
SPEAKER_00: Right.
37:04
You you're going to have to come to that moment of like,
37:08
I wanted the connection.
37:09
SPEAKER_00: I regret not spending more time with.
37:11
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
37:12
SPEAKER_00: So and so that's where it's at.
37:15
SPEAKER_00: You take.
37:16
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
37:17
The only thing that really you might take with you because you
37:20
take nothing.
37:21
SPEAKER_00: It's the good that you had.
37:25
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
37:27
SPEAKER_00: And so I think that's back to death.
37:29
SPEAKER_00: It really kind of narrows it down.
37:31
SPEAKER_00: What is essential?
37:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
37:33
SPEAKER_00: What is really what really matters?
37:35
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
37:37
SPEAKER_00: The other thing I was thinking about, as you were saying, is.
37:42
SPEAKER_00: I was thinking about Jane Austen,
37:43
SPEAKER_00: you know,
37:43
SPEAKER_00: and her little desk writing those novels all so long ago.
37:48
SPEAKER_00: And here we are still.
37:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
37:51
SPEAKER_00: Reading her books.
37:52
SPEAKER_00: Right.
37:53
SPEAKER_00: Still going crazy about who they're picking to play Mr. Darcy on TV.
37:58
SPEAKER_03: I know.
38:00
SPEAKER_00: Having very strong opinions about it.
38:01
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
38:03
SPEAKER_00: And I'm.
38:05
SPEAKER_00: I don't know where I read this.
38:07
SPEAKER_00: I hope it's historically correct,
38:09
but I read once that Winston Churchill would read Jane Eyre
38:13
during World War II.
38:14
SPEAKER_00: Not Jane Eyre, sorry, Jane Austen during World War II.
38:18
And I always thought if Winston Churchill was dealing with
38:22
World War Two and
38:23
SPEAKER_00: reading Jane Austen,
38:25
SPEAKER_00: I'm thinking that is good for me.
38:27
SPEAKER_00: You know, that's right.
38:28
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
38:30
SPEAKER_01: That's a stressful job.
38:31
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I did not know that.
38:34
SPEAKER_01: I love that.
38:35
SPEAKER_01: So there we have it.
38:38
SPEAKER_00: Well,
38:38
SPEAKER_00: to go back to the domestic magic,
38:40
SPEAKER_00: because like I said,
38:42
SPEAKER_00: I'm walking through your books backwards.
38:45
SPEAKER_00: But to the three ones,
38:47
SPEAKER_00: there was all this sort of the quiet,
38:50
SPEAKER_00: the everyday form of knowing,
38:52
SPEAKER_00: right,
38:53
SPEAKER_00: that plays a big part in this work.
38:56
SPEAKER_00: So for you,
38:58
SPEAKER_00: what does that mean,
38:58
SPEAKER_00: bringing in this,
39:00
SPEAKER_00: centering that kind of magic,
39:02
SPEAKER_00: not the epic kind,
39:04
SPEAKER_00: but the kind of domestic magic?
39:08
SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
39:09
SPEAKER_01: that's an interesting question because I didn't,
39:11
SPEAKER_01: you know,
39:11
SPEAKER_01: a lot of these things that are in my books,
39:14
SPEAKER_01: like I never,
39:14
SPEAKER_01: you know,
39:15
SPEAKER_01: in the beginning,
39:15
SPEAKER_01: you don't sit down and say,
39:17
SPEAKER_01: I'm going to do this for this reason.
39:18
And so then you have to go back and think,
39:20
huh,
39:20
you know,
39:21
I wonder why I did that.
39:22
SPEAKER_01: And I think with this kind of a small magic,
39:28
SPEAKER_01: I think,
39:29
SPEAKER_01: you know,
39:29
SPEAKER_01: one piece of that is that I'm,
39:32
SPEAKER_01: you know,
39:32
SPEAKER_01: I'm writing a book.
39:35
SPEAKER_01: uh, female, uh, main characters and their stories.
39:39
SPEAKER_01: And at the time period that I'm writing,
39:43
SPEAKER_01: that was kind of domestic was their,
39:47
SPEAKER_01: their domain right there.
39:49
SPEAKER_01: Um, now, you know, fantasy, you have a lot of leeway.
39:52
SPEAKER_01: You can,
39:53
SPEAKER_01: you know,
39:53
SPEAKER_01: you can be a warrior,
39:54
SPEAKER_01: you can be a magician,
39:56
SPEAKER_01: you can be a witch,
39:57
SPEAKER_01: you know,
39:57
SPEAKER_01: you,
39:57
SPEAKER_01: you know,
39:58
SPEAKER_01: and I do have a witch,
39:59
SPEAKER_01: but,
40:00
SPEAKER_01: um,
40:01
SPEAKER_01: but I also,
40:02
SPEAKER_01: um,
40:04
SPEAKER_01: keep my, my stories within the framework of Victorian society.
40:07
SPEAKER_01: And so those were women's domains,
40:11
SPEAKER_01: you know,
40:11
SPEAKER_01: the small,
40:12
SPEAKER_01: quiet,
40:13
SPEAKER_01: you know,
40:14
SPEAKER_01: baking,
40:15
SPEAKER_01: tea,
40:17
SPEAKER_01: the comforts of home,
40:18
SPEAKER_01: all those,
40:19
SPEAKER_01: all of those things were,
40:20
SPEAKER_01: were,
40:21
SPEAKER_01: you know,
40:21
SPEAKER_01: women's domain.
40:22
SPEAKER_01: And so I think that's, that's part of it.
40:24
SPEAKER_01: Um,
40:26
SPEAKER_01: But I also think,
40:28
SPEAKER_01: and this goes back into what we were talking about just a little bit ago,
40:31
SPEAKER_01: but I think,
40:33
SPEAKER_01: too,
40:35
SPEAKER_01: these are kind of small magics,
40:39
SPEAKER_01: like tea leaf reading,
40:41
SPEAKER_01: cottage witchcraft.
40:42
SPEAKER_01: They're tools for regulating the nervous system.
40:47
SPEAKER_01: They're tools for processing information, processing emotion, and...
40:55
I think so when I like when I if I'm describing these stories
41:01
of somebody,
41:01
SPEAKER_01: I might say they're cozy books.
41:03
SPEAKER_01: They have a cozy vibe.
41:04
SPEAKER_01: But I do think it's more than a vibe.
41:05
SPEAKER_01: It's it's and I have no problem with vibes.
41:09
SPEAKER_01: I love I love gothic vibes, cozy vibes.
41:11
SPEAKER_01: You know, I love vibes.
41:12
But at the same time,
41:13
I feel like it is a little bit a little bit deeper than that in
41:16
that.
41:19
SPEAKER_01: I think a lot of people,
41:21
SPEAKER_01: most tea drinkers have probably heard people say,
41:25
SPEAKER_01: especially if they're English,
41:27
SPEAKER_01: how tea can just...
41:31
SPEAKER_01: Someone comes in and they've just seen something awful.
41:34
SPEAKER_01: They're swept in off the moors and let me make you a cup of tea, right?
41:39
SPEAKER_01: And so that's just...
41:42
SPEAKER_01: It's part of our it's part of our culture is not really the right word,
41:46
SPEAKER_01: but but it's something like that we've really internalized.
41:50
SPEAKER_01: Right.
41:51
SPEAKER_00: It's very centering.
41:52
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
41:53
SPEAKER_01: It's very grounding.
41:54
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
41:55
SPEAKER_01: Comforting, grounding, centering.
41:56
SPEAKER_01: I'm OK.
41:57
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
41:58
You know,
41:58
kind of like where we have mindfulness now and we say we do
42:02
that with the breath.
42:02
We sit and we breathe and we watch our breath and it reminds us
42:06
that we're here
42:07
SPEAKER_01: right now and right now we're okay.
42:09
I think that you get that from tea and you get that from the
42:17
caretaking of other
42:18
SPEAKER_01: people when they make you tea.
42:19
SPEAKER_01: Let me make you something to eat.
42:21
SPEAKER_01: Let me do this for you.
42:22
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
42:24
SPEAKER_01: And even small domestic arts,
42:27
SPEAKER_01: I haven't done a lot with that,
42:29
SPEAKER_01: but kind of with Jane in Salt and Broom,
42:34
the little herb bundles that she would make and the poppet
42:40
making and just these
42:44
SPEAKER_01: little,
42:46
SPEAKER_01: to me,
42:46
SPEAKER_01: these little,
42:47
SPEAKER_01: I don't know what's the word I'm looking for.
42:50
SPEAKER_01: They're tangible actions that are
42:55
SPEAKER_01: So much more than what they appear.
42:57
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
43:00
They're they're accomplishing more than what you if you're
43:02
watching it as a movie,
43:03
SPEAKER_01: she's making tea.
43:04
SPEAKER_01: Right.
43:05
SPEAKER_01: Or she's,
43:05
SPEAKER_01: you know,
43:06
SPEAKER_01: whatever there it it's again,
43:10
SPEAKER_01: I look at them as I can't tools doesn't seem like the right word to me,
43:14
SPEAKER_01: but it is in a way it's.
43:18
SPEAKER_00: Oh, I don't know.
43:20
SPEAKER_00: As you're describing,
43:21
SPEAKER_00: I'm thinking just before we started our conversation,
43:25
SPEAKER_00: I made myself and my husband a cup of tea,
43:28
SPEAKER_00: you know,
43:30
SPEAKER_00: it's a way to center.
43:31
SPEAKER_00: I think too, it's about, there's an element of the ritual.
43:36
And when I think of the ritual here,
43:37
I think what ritual to me is very simple.
43:41
SPEAKER_00: It's you bringing an intention and something you want to, um,
43:47
create and you use something physical that you have at hand
43:53
that would be an embodiment.
43:55
So it puts together the intention with the physicality of
43:59
making something.
44:00
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
44:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
44:01
SPEAKER_00: And I think that's the key here.
44:03
SPEAKER_00: The intention with the physicality.
44:07
SPEAKER_01: Yes, I agree.
44:09
SPEAKER_01: I agree with that.
44:10
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
44:11
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
44:12
SPEAKER_01: And yeah,
44:15
SPEAKER_00: And also,
44:15
SPEAKER_00: I think depending on,
44:17
SPEAKER_00: you know,
44:17
SPEAKER_00: if you make yourself a cup of tea,
44:18
SPEAKER_00: but if there's another person making for you or you're the one making it,
44:22
SPEAKER_00: there's an element of we're together.
44:25
SPEAKER_00: OK, it's almost part of the stress tunnel, right?
44:29
You you get to now calm down together with another and talk
44:35
about it,
44:35
process it.
44:36
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
44:37
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
44:37
SPEAKER_00: With a warm beverage.
44:39
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
44:40
SPEAKER_00: Not to mention.
44:41
SPEAKER_00: Oh, go ahead.
44:42
SPEAKER_00: Oh, sorry.
44:42
Not to mention the sometimes the healing properties of the if
44:45
it's an herb tea.
44:47
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
44:48
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
44:48
SPEAKER_01: You have.
44:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
44:49
SPEAKER_01: And even black tea has, you know, a lot of very healthful.
44:54
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
44:54
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
44:55
SPEAKER_01: And theanine, soothing, you know, and all those things.
44:57
SPEAKER_01: And I was going to say, too, that also.
45:04
SPEAKER_01: when it is,
45:05
SPEAKER_01: you know,
45:05
SPEAKER_01: something shared,
45:06
SPEAKER_01: when you're making tea for somebody else,
45:09
SPEAKER_01: then you just,
45:10
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
45:10
SPEAKER_01: the obvious,
45:13
SPEAKER_01: but I don't think,
45:14
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
45:14
SPEAKER_01: I think it's so important,
45:15
SPEAKER_01: that feeling of being cared for,
45:18
SPEAKER_01: you know,
45:20
SPEAKER_01: this is an act of service that this person is doing for me because,
45:25
SPEAKER_01: you know,
45:26
SPEAKER_01: they're trying to help me.
45:27
SPEAKER_01: And yeah, so I'm a lot of...
45:32
SPEAKER_00: So all of a sudden it's not so small, right?
45:35
SPEAKER_00: It's a little bit more profound and more grounded.
45:40
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
45:41
Another element that I noticed in the three books that I read
45:45
back to back and it
45:46
SPEAKER_00: stood out to me is the idea of the inherited,
45:49
SPEAKER_00: the sort of the family legacy lineage.
45:55
SPEAKER_00: What is inherited?
45:57
SPEAKER_00: And I thought that was really interesting.
45:59
SPEAKER_00: It stood out to me.
46:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
46:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
46:03
SPEAKER_00: So like in Salt and Brew,
46:04
SPEAKER_00: I don't want to give spoilers,
46:05
SPEAKER_00: but big,
46:06
SPEAKER_00: big sort of curse running through the family.
46:09
SPEAKER_00: Right.
46:10
SPEAKER_00: Because somebody back in the past was not happy.
46:13
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
46:14
SPEAKER_00: Rightly so.
46:16
SPEAKER_00: Then in Grim Curiosity.
46:18
SPEAKER_00: Wow,
46:19
SPEAKER_00: such a mystery in the family line,
46:23
SPEAKER_00: which is to a certain degree,
46:24
SPEAKER_00: I was kind of frustrated with the father for like,
46:26
SPEAKER_00: really?
46:27
SPEAKER_03: This is huge.
46:30
SPEAKER_00: But not giving spoilers, you all go read the books.
46:34
SPEAKER_00: And then in Tea and Alchemy,
46:36
SPEAKER_00: another kind,
46:37
SPEAKER_00: which was even more profound because it was ancient history,
46:41
like magical created by the Druids that now carried forward all
46:45
the way down to
46:46
SPEAKER_00: Victorian times.
46:48
So when you were writing these books,
46:49
was this even an idea or just happened?
46:53
SPEAKER_00: Or what do you think about that lineage and inherited?
46:58
SPEAKER_00: Sort of the family.
46:59
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's a good question.
47:01
SPEAKER_01: I think, I mean, maybe there's a couple of things there.
47:03
SPEAKER_01: I think part of it is it's so Gothic, right?
47:08
SPEAKER_01: The books are Gothic and,
47:10
SPEAKER_01: and it's so Gothic to have those secrets from the past that are coming,
47:16
working their way to the surface and are about to create havoc
47:19
for everybody,
47:20
SPEAKER_01: you know?
47:20
SPEAKER_01: So I think that's part of it.
47:22
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
47:24
SPEAKER_01: It's also like some of what's inherited in the stories is,
47:28
SPEAKER_01: again,
47:29
SPEAKER_01: we were talking about,
47:30
I mentioned like social constructs and like societal rules and
47:33
things like that.
47:34
So that too is something that has been inherited from previous
47:40
generation.
47:41
SPEAKER_01: And then you have the heroines who are like constrained by this,
47:45
SPEAKER_01: but also starting to kind of push back a little bit.
47:47
SPEAKER_01: But...
47:52
Two,
47:52
I think – I mean,
47:54
when you're dealing with character arcs,
47:56
you are – what are we?
47:59
SPEAKER_01: What makes our character, right?
48:01
SPEAKER_01: It's – I mean,
48:03
sometimes the families that these stories are dealing with are
48:08
creating the terror
48:12
SPEAKER_01: in the story,
48:13
SPEAKER_01: the problems,
48:13
SPEAKER_01: the conflict,
48:14
SPEAKER_01: you know.
48:14
SPEAKER_01: But also there's the smaller things of –
48:21
SPEAKER_01: just the traits even that we inherit from our parents.
48:25
SPEAKER_01: And,
48:26
and I think this is something that we just all can relate to
48:29
that we are kind of
48:32
SPEAKER_01: grappling with that legacy,
48:34
SPEAKER_01: our entire lives,
48:36
SPEAKER_01: right?
48:36
SPEAKER_01: Like what we, what we have from our, from our parents and, um,
48:42
SPEAKER_01: What we keep,
48:43
SPEAKER_01: what we discard,
48:44
SPEAKER_01: what we try to discard,
48:45
SPEAKER_01: but can't,
48:46
SPEAKER_01: you know,
48:46
SPEAKER_01: I think everybody can identify with that,
48:49
SPEAKER_01: too.
48:50
SPEAKER_01: So I think it's on a few different levels.
48:51
I think it probably superficially starts out with just the I'm
48:57
telling a tale of
48:58
kind of gothic mystery and terror and romance and and bringing
49:05
in those things.
49:07
SPEAKER_01: these,
49:08
SPEAKER_01: um,
49:08
events from the past that have to be kind of cracked open and
49:12
examined before you
49:13
SPEAKER_01: can solve the whole thing.
49:14
SPEAKER_01: Like that's kind of the, kind of a Gothic quality.
49:18
SPEAKER_01: And so on the superficial level,
49:19
SPEAKER_01: I think,
49:20
SPEAKER_01: I think that it's,
49:21
SPEAKER_01: or not,
49:22
SPEAKER_01: maybe not superficial,
49:23
SPEAKER_01: but at least on the most surface level,
49:24
SPEAKER_01: I think that's where it begins.
49:26
SPEAKER_01: But then it,
49:27
SPEAKER_01: it kind of deepens when now I have to tell the,
49:29
SPEAKER_01: actually tell the story,
49:30
SPEAKER_01: not just the plot,
49:31
SPEAKER_01: but I have to tell the story of these people.
49:33
SPEAKER_01: And where do these people go?
49:37
SPEAKER_01: And how does their family affect how they are now?
49:41
SPEAKER_01: Like,
49:42
SPEAKER_01: let's see,
49:43
SPEAKER_01: can I say this without being doing spoilers,
49:47
SPEAKER_01: but like,
49:48
SPEAKER_01: like with Harker and T and Alchemy,
49:49
SPEAKER_01: how his family.
49:52
he has made very firm boundaries in his life based on what he's
49:58
observed from,
49:59
SPEAKER_01: you know,
49:59
SPEAKER_01: what he knows of his family's past and his family legacy.
50:03
And that creates a huge part of the tension and the conflict in
50:08
the story is these
50:10
SPEAKER_01: boundaries and how,
50:11
SPEAKER_01: whether or not they should be overcome,
50:13
SPEAKER_01: how they're overcome,
50:14
SPEAKER_01: you know,
50:15
SPEAKER_01: and how that affects the way the story unfolds,
50:19
SPEAKER_01: if that makes sense.
50:20
SPEAKER_00: It does.
50:21
SPEAKER_00: Because when I read that one,
50:24
SPEAKER_00: it really stood out to me,
50:25
SPEAKER_00: you know,
50:26
SPEAKER_00: because coming back,
50:27
coming from a therapeutic background and working with people's
50:32
family situations
50:34
SPEAKER_00: and histories.
50:36
SPEAKER_00: I thought it was really interesting,
50:37
SPEAKER_00: his behavior and folks just read the book,
50:41
SPEAKER_00: so we're not giving spoilers.
50:43
SPEAKER_00: Right.
50:44
I really love that book,
50:45
T and Alchemy,
50:47
is I thought his behavior was how.
50:51
SPEAKER_00: we in many ways adapt to what we inherit from our families.
50:56
SPEAKER_00: It's like a coping mechanism.
50:58
SPEAKER_00: We try not to do it like our parents or grandparents,
51:01
SPEAKER_00: but we do it in a certain way that can actually sometimes be quite stiff,
51:08
SPEAKER_00: if you will,
51:09
SPEAKER_00: for the lack of a better word,
51:10
SPEAKER_00: too strict.
51:12
SPEAKER_00: Right.
51:12
SPEAKER_00: And then somebody comes into our lives in the book.
51:15
SPEAKER_00: It's Mina, you know, and the situation that happens in the story.
51:19
SPEAKER_00: Mm hmm.
51:20
SPEAKER_00: Shakes him out of that sort of very strict boundary.
51:22
SPEAKER_00: He now has to expand.
51:25
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
51:25
And I thought psychologically reading that I was like,
51:27
oh,
51:27
that's what happens in life.
51:29
And that's where back to romance and relationships when we meet
51:33
the other doesn't
51:34
SPEAKER_00: have to be necessarily romantic.
51:36
SPEAKER_00: But when we meet another that will shake us out of our comfort zone,
51:41
SPEAKER_00: our sort of coping mechanism type of behavior.
51:44
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
51:45
SPEAKER_00: This is where the challenge goes.
51:46
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
51:48
SPEAKER_01: It's making me think of,
51:49
I don't know if you've watched the Bridgerton or have read the
51:52
Bridgerton novels,
51:53
SPEAKER_01: but the series Bridgerton,
51:56
SPEAKER_01: the first season,
51:59
SPEAKER_01: the hero and heroine,
52:02
SPEAKER_01: the male and female main characters,
52:05
SPEAKER_01: they go through something like this,
52:07
SPEAKER_01: where the male main character has...
52:13
developed a system for his life based on his abusive father and
52:20
he is never would
52:21
is never going to really analyze that or you know it is just
52:27
his it's become a law
52:29
in his world you know and it never would have changed if he
52:33
hadn't met the female
52:34
SPEAKER_01: main character
52:35
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
52:36
And so and that wrenching change is so much of what makes any I
52:44
think any story,
52:45
SPEAKER_01: but in particular,
52:46
SPEAKER_01: it can be romances that the wrenching that comes that,
52:50
SPEAKER_01: you know,
52:50
SPEAKER_01: when when that one of the characters realizes like to have this.
52:56
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
52:58
SPEAKER_01: I've got to do something I said I would never do, you know.
53:01
SPEAKER_01: And I think that's just really compelling.
53:04
SPEAKER_00: And it's,
53:06
SPEAKER_00: I feel,
53:07
SPEAKER_00: for all of us,
53:08
SPEAKER_00: if you think about it,
53:09
SPEAKER_00: we all have gone through some version of that in some way,
53:14
SPEAKER_00: you know.
53:14
SPEAKER_00: Definitely.
53:15
SPEAKER_00: We got really stuck in a certain way that saved us.
53:19
SPEAKER_00: And so that's why for me,
53:21
SPEAKER_00: reading,
53:22
SPEAKER_00: dealing with the stories is very therapeutic because you are maybe.
53:29
approaching a situation you've lived or you're going through
53:33
kind of sideways you
53:35
know kind of it kind of sort of envelops you in a way that
53:39
feels a lot more gentle
53:40
rather than going straight in yeah and i i find that very
53:45
compelling because in
53:46
those books that's what really stood stood out to me reading
53:50
from a therapeutic
53:51
SPEAKER_00: lens is like all this inherited stuff you
53:54
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
53:55
SPEAKER_01: Well,
53:55
SPEAKER_01: and I think in two,
53:57
SPEAKER_01: you know,
53:58
SPEAKER_01: something that is a characteristic of these stories in particular,
54:04
SPEAKER_01: and maybe anyone who writes in this time period,
54:09
SPEAKER_01: it's interesting.
54:10
It's hard to have a main character,
54:14
especially a female main character who doesn't have...
54:20
baggage around her parents that at least partly comes from
54:24
something having
54:24
SPEAKER_01: happened to them,
54:25
SPEAKER_01: right?
54:26
SPEAKER_01: Because these women are only able to be independent because of, you know,
54:36
SPEAKER_01: So in T and Alchemy or yeah,
54:39
SPEAKER_01: T and Alchemy,
54:40
SPEAKER_01: for example,
54:41
SPEAKER_01: her parents have died and her brother's not really,
54:45
SPEAKER_01: you know,
54:46
SPEAKER_01: they're about they're the same age or twins.
54:47
SPEAKER_01: And so they're not really it's not like he's taking care of her.
54:50
He's trying to because he's the male and and,
54:53
you know,
54:54
he sees that as his role.
54:55
SPEAKER_01: But and that is a big part of, you know, their conflict.
54:59
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
55:01
But then also like Ingram Curiosities where the her father is
55:05
gone and her mother
55:07
SPEAKER_01: is basically gone.
55:08
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
55:09
SPEAKER_01: Gone.
55:10
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, it's hard.
55:12
It would be hard to tell a story about a woman in that time
55:16
period whose parents
55:17
SPEAKER_01: were both still alive.
55:19
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
55:20
SPEAKER_01: Because then that character basically doesn't not have agency,
55:24
SPEAKER_01: you know,
55:25
SPEAKER_01: unless you can find a unique the new book that I that I just turned in.
55:29
SPEAKER_01: I thought I did find another way to.
55:34
SPEAKER_01: For her to have some agency that was a little different.
55:36
SPEAKER_01: But because of that,
55:38
SPEAKER_01: it kind of builds into the story some trauma or some grief,
55:43
SPEAKER_01: you know,
55:44
SPEAKER_01: that you're working with from the very beginning.
55:47
SPEAKER_01: Because they're gone.
55:48
SPEAKER_01: Maybe they died young.
55:49
SPEAKER_01: Maybe there was a tragedy.
55:52
SPEAKER_01: You know,
55:53
SPEAKER_01: like in the case of Mrs.
55:54
SPEAKER_01: Grimm,
55:54
SPEAKER_01: maybe,
55:55
SPEAKER_01: you know,
55:55
SPEAKER_01: something's happened to them,
55:56
SPEAKER_01: so they're not really there anymore.
55:57
SPEAKER_01: You know, that kind of story set up just...
56:03
SPEAKER_01: From there, you step right into all the trauma that surrounds that.
56:08
SPEAKER_00: And I'm just thinking here, like, and then it's often dismissed.
56:12
SPEAKER_00: Oh, it's just fluff.
56:13
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's just these books.
56:15
SPEAKER_00: So like the fairy tales, so much trauma.
56:18
But they're showing ways,
56:20
possible ways to heal and resolve or tackle or navigate the
56:25
trauma.
56:27
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
56:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
56:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
56:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
56:30
Well,
56:30
one thing I did notice about your heroines and I was like,
56:33
I love this.
56:35
SPEAKER_00: At least it was my perspective.
56:37
SPEAKER_00: But the curiosity that they had.
56:40
SPEAKER_00: Oh, right.
56:40
SPEAKER_02: Right.
56:41
SPEAKER_00: They were curious.
56:44
SPEAKER_00: They were willing to not so quickly go into black and white thinking,
56:51
SPEAKER_00: but stay with the question.
56:53
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
56:54
And,
56:55
you know,
56:56
the tea leaves for Mina,
56:58
and of course the herbs and salt and straw.
57:01
SPEAKER_00: Salt and straw.
57:02
SPEAKER_00: The ice cream place in Portland.
57:05
SPEAKER_00: My mind is wanting ice cream.
57:07
SPEAKER_00: That sounds good.
57:07
SPEAKER_03: Let's go get some.
57:09
SPEAKER_03: Let's go get some.
57:11
SPEAKER_00: Let's get some.
57:13
SPEAKER_00: Get salt and straw ice cream and read Salt and Broom.
57:16
SPEAKER_00: That's the way to go.
57:17
SPEAKER_00: But...
57:20
SPEAKER_00: in using all that curiosity to unravel the mysteries.
57:23
SPEAKER_00: And so I was,
57:24
I was just wondering if what's the place of curiosity for you
57:28
in your own life and
57:30
SPEAKER_00: maybe,
57:31
SPEAKER_00: and it's definitely in your showing up in your stories.
57:34
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
57:34
SPEAKER_01: It's interesting.
57:34
SPEAKER_01: I think that,
57:35
I think that that is the reason that that shows up is the way
57:40
these characters kind
57:41
SPEAKER_01: of approach life is it's,
57:44
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
57:44
SPEAKER_01: I,
57:45
SPEAKER_01: this was not planned before,
57:48
SPEAKER_01: It's very similar to the way I do in the sense that,
57:55
SPEAKER_01: you know,
57:56
SPEAKER_01: I'm I am really curious and I'm spiritually I consider myself a seeker.
58:01
And but at the same time,
58:03
there's like half of me that's very logical and pragmatic.
58:09
And so I feel like I hadn't actually really put this together
58:17
until you mentioned
58:19
SPEAKER_01: it,
58:19
SPEAKER_01: but I think that my main characters are operating in a very similar way.
58:25
SPEAKER_01: They come in to the story, they begin from a very pragmatic place.
58:33
SPEAKER_01: Jane is,
58:33
SPEAKER_01: okay,
58:34
I'm going to be sent to this house where I don't know anyone
58:37
and I have to do well.
58:39
Because it's what's expected of me and also to help,
58:42
you know,
58:43
keep my school,
58:45
you know,
58:46
going.
58:46
SPEAKER_01: So I have to do this.
58:48
And then,
58:50
you know,
58:50
with Mina,
58:51
I can't,
58:52
in Teen Alchemy,
58:53
I can't stay in this house.
58:57
SPEAKER_01: I can't,
58:57
SPEAKER_01: you know,
59:01
she knew that she was too alone and that she had to find a way
59:05
to kind of sustain
59:06
SPEAKER_01: herself.
59:07
SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
59:07
SPEAKER_01: And then also,
59:08
SPEAKER_01: of course,
59:08
SPEAKER_01: contribute,
59:09
SPEAKER_01: you know,
59:10
SPEAKER_01: she can contribute somewhat financially to the story or to the,
59:13
SPEAKER_01: to the,
59:13
SPEAKER_01: to her,
59:14
SPEAKER_01: her household.
59:15
SPEAKER_01: And, um, I see.
59:18
SPEAKER_01: And then of course,
59:19
SPEAKER_01: grim curiosities is loaded with,
59:21
SPEAKER_01: you know,
59:22
Lizzie's pragmatism and like trying to run the shop and keep
59:25
the shop going.
59:26
SPEAKER_01: What do I need to do?
59:27
SPEAKER_01: How much money do I need to make?
59:29
SPEAKER_00: Oh, the pressure was on for that.
59:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
59:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
59:33
SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
59:33
SPEAKER_01: and they all,
59:34
SPEAKER_01: so they all start kind of with this logical,
59:36
SPEAKER_01: pragmatic,
59:37
SPEAKER_01: you know,
59:38
SPEAKER_01: just trying to get through life.
59:40
SPEAKER_01: But something happens,
59:42
SPEAKER_01: obviously,
59:43
SPEAKER_01: in each of them,
59:43
SPEAKER_01: in each story,
59:45
SPEAKER_01: where that you've,
59:48
SPEAKER_01: it's not that the curiosity wasn't there before,
59:50
SPEAKER_01: but it begins to draw that out of them,
59:53
SPEAKER_01: like,
59:54
SPEAKER_01: oh,
59:54
SPEAKER_01: what's,
59:55
SPEAKER_01: what's this?
59:55
SPEAKER_01: What's happening here?
59:56
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
59:59
SPEAKER_01: And also these stories all move into being basically a mystery.
1:00:06
SPEAKER_01: And that's one of the things that you always find when you read,
1:00:12
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:00:13
SPEAKER_01: just even reading like Agatha Christie,
1:00:14
SPEAKER_01: right?
1:00:15
The people who are solving the crimes,
1:00:16
that's one thing they all have in common.
1:00:18
SPEAKER_01: They all ask questions.
1:00:20
SPEAKER_01: And they keep asking questions until they get answers.
1:00:25
SPEAKER_01: And that's definitely something that my main characters,
1:00:28
SPEAKER_01: I think,
1:00:28
SPEAKER_01: share with,
1:00:29
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:00:29
SPEAKER_01: just from from your basic like mysteries like you,
1:00:33
SPEAKER_01: you.
1:00:36
SPEAKER_01: They wouldn't get in these predicaments if they weren't questioning,
1:00:39
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:00:39
and that's part of what leads them into like right into the
1:00:44
middle of it where
1:00:45
SPEAKER_01: everything's starting to kind of go,
1:00:47
SPEAKER_01: go a little nuts is,
1:00:48
SPEAKER_01: is,
1:00:49
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:00:49
SPEAKER_01: by following,
1:00:50
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:00:50
SPEAKER_01: questioning,
1:00:52
SPEAKER_01: finding the answers.
1:00:53
And,
1:00:53
um,
1:00:55
but to,
1:00:56
you know,
1:00:56
that makes it sound a little bit mechanical,
1:00:58
but they are also,
1:01:00
um,
1:01:02
they,
1:01:03
they have,
1:01:03
there's wonder,
1:01:04
they have wonder and they have interest.
1:01:06
SPEAKER_01: And yeah, that's important.
1:01:09
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:01:09
SPEAKER_01: And I feel like for me,
1:01:10
that's something that I had as a child and then not so much
1:01:13
through most of the
1:01:14
SPEAKER_01: rest of my life,
1:01:15
SPEAKER_01: but has kind of reawakened in like middle age.
1:01:20
SPEAKER_01: And so, yeah.
1:01:22
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:01:23
As you say,
1:01:24
that's really important because I feel curiosity is always
1:01:28
attacked by
1:01:29
SPEAKER_00: You know, the curiosity in general, you ask too many questions.
1:01:33
SPEAKER_00: It's problematic.
1:01:35
We know that in authoritarian governments,
1:01:38
that's the first thing is they want to shut down.
1:01:41
SPEAKER_00: You're asking too many questions.
1:01:42
SPEAKER_00: Don't ask the questions we are seeing unfold.
1:01:46
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:01:46
SPEAKER_00: But wonder is also very important, that sense of.
1:01:50
SPEAKER_00: I think to me, Wanda brings a sense of possibility.
1:01:54
SPEAKER_00: And if the characters had not had the curiosity and the wonder,
1:01:58
SPEAKER_00: they wouldn't have solved their issues.
1:02:00
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
1:02:01
SPEAKER_00: Yes,
1:02:01
SPEAKER_00: they got into the thick mystery,
1:02:05
SPEAKER_00: but it also helped them solve and break the spell of many things.
1:02:11
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's right.
1:02:13
SPEAKER_00: I feel...
1:02:15
It's so important nowadays to have that wonder because
1:02:19
everything is so flattened out.
1:02:21
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:02:22
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I agree.
1:02:23
And I think when we are in a personal threshold or in a
1:02:27
collective threshold,
1:02:30
SPEAKER_00: I feel this in myself kind of very much like yourself.
1:02:32
SPEAKER_00: I'm both pragmatic, but also very curious and imaginative.
1:02:37
SPEAKER_00: Right.
1:02:38
SPEAKER_00: And those two can battle inside myself.
1:02:41
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
1:02:42
But I find really important to stay with the wonder and the
1:02:46
curiosity so as to not
1:02:49
SPEAKER_00: flatten out things.
1:02:50
SPEAKER_00: Because when I feel when you're in wonder and curiosity,
1:02:53
SPEAKER_00: it's more difficult to be controlled by fear.
1:02:57
SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
1:02:58
SPEAKER_01: That's a really good point.
1:02:59
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's very true.
1:03:01
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:03:02
SPEAKER_00: And that's where they often like to attack the first thing, right?
1:03:06
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
1:03:08
SPEAKER_01: And I think that now that you're saying that and the stories,
1:03:12
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:03:13
and my stories is like that is what kind of keeps them going is
1:03:17
their desire to
1:03:18
SPEAKER_01: understand what's going on.
1:03:20
SPEAKER_01: To understand, yeah.
1:03:21
They could walk away,
1:03:22
you know,
1:03:23
they could be,
1:03:23
of course,
1:03:23
then we wouldn't have a book,
1:03:24
but
1:03:25
SPEAKER_01: But we often do.
1:03:26
SPEAKER_01: Right.
1:03:27
SPEAKER_01: This is too much.
1:03:27
SPEAKER_01: I don't I don't want to get involved in this, you know.
1:03:31
SPEAKER_01: And but yeah,
1:03:33
SPEAKER_01: that for for these characters that like I know I want to know,
1:03:37
I want to understand that that's really keeps them keeps them
1:03:41
going and allows them
1:03:42
SPEAKER_01: to be successful,
1:03:44
SPEAKER_01: successful in the end,
1:03:45
SPEAKER_01: you know.
1:03:46
SPEAKER_00: I would say they are successful.
1:03:48
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:03:51
SPEAKER_00: They discover,
1:03:52
SPEAKER_00: they find love,
1:03:53
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:03:53
SPEAKER_00: they solve their financial issues,
1:03:55
SPEAKER_00: especially in grim curiosity.
1:03:58
SPEAKER_01: It seemed like a weird word to use, but you're right.
1:04:03
SPEAKER_00: There's a measure of success.
1:04:05
SPEAKER_00: Um,
1:04:06
SPEAKER_00: the other thing I want,
1:04:07
SPEAKER_00: I was curious,
1:04:08
SPEAKER_00: especially because of grim curiosities,
1:04:09
SPEAKER_00: but also,
1:04:10
SPEAKER_00: uh,
1:04:11
SPEAKER_00: salt and broom is,
1:04:13
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:04:14
SPEAKER_00: there was an element of the folklore and the re-imagining of the story.
1:04:18
SPEAKER_00: Um,
1:04:20
SPEAKER_00: so how did,
1:04:21
SPEAKER_00: how did you come,
1:04:23
how do you decide that into approach a retelling or
1:04:26
reinterpretation of a folklore
1:04:29
SPEAKER_00: or a story that's very famous?
1:04:30
SPEAKER_00: Um,
1:04:32
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that is a good question.
1:04:34
SPEAKER_01: I think for me, it's...
1:04:40
so these stories that have been with us a long time that are
1:04:42
really popular with
1:04:44
SPEAKER_01: readers,
1:04:45
SPEAKER_01: there's some core element of,
1:04:47
SPEAKER_01: you almost want to,
1:04:48
SPEAKER_01: I almost want to call it this kind of the soul,
1:04:51
SPEAKER_01: the story soul that we,
1:04:54
SPEAKER_01: that's what we connect with.
1:04:56
SPEAKER_01: And, and that's why it's resonates with so many people.
1:05:01
SPEAKER_01: And that's,
1:05:03
SPEAKER_01: You know, why would we go back to these stories?
1:05:06
SPEAKER_01: And so I think for me with the retellings,
1:05:08
SPEAKER_01: it's like I know with Salt and Broom that,
1:05:11
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:05:11
SPEAKER_01: the original was one of my favorite books.
1:05:13
It was I think it was the first classic that I read that I
1:05:17
didn't have to read for
1:05:18
SPEAKER_01: school that somebody said,
1:05:19
SPEAKER_01: oh,
1:05:19
SPEAKER_01: you should read this.
1:05:20
SPEAKER_01: You'll like it, you know.
1:05:22
SPEAKER_01: And yeah.
1:05:24
SPEAKER_01: So I think I kind of lost my train of thought for a second.
1:05:30
SPEAKER_01: Where was I going with that?
1:05:32
SPEAKER_01: OK, let me see.
1:05:33
Well,
1:05:34
Salt and Broom and the retelling of the first stories you kind
1:05:38
of classic that you read.
1:05:39
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
1:05:40
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
1:05:40
SPEAKER_01: I drifted off there for a second.
1:05:42
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:05:43
SPEAKER_01: So because of because of that.
1:05:46
SPEAKER_01: So when I started when I decided to retell Salt and Broom, I wanted to.
1:05:51
SPEAKER_01: keep intact,
1:05:53
SPEAKER_01: if I could,
1:05:53
SPEAKER_01: that kind of core or soul of the story that people so identify with,
1:05:58
SPEAKER_01: just from the perspective of,
1:06:00
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:06:01
SPEAKER_01: this is what makes this story worth retelling,
1:06:03
SPEAKER_01: I think,
1:06:03
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:06:04
SPEAKER_01: and then I would,
1:06:08
SPEAKER_01: I didn't ask this question verbatim,
1:06:10
SPEAKER_01: but I think the idea in my own mind was,
1:06:12
SPEAKER_01: okay,
1:06:13
SPEAKER_01: now,
1:06:13
SPEAKER_01: if I took this story,
1:06:15
SPEAKER_01: and I could say,
1:06:16
SPEAKER_01: what
1:06:17
How would I want someone else to retell this story for me to
1:06:23
make it something I
1:06:25
SPEAKER_01: would find really compelling?
1:06:27
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
1:06:27
SPEAKER_01: as much as I love the original,
1:06:28
SPEAKER_01: how can I build on that by now tailoring this story to me as a reader?
1:06:34
SPEAKER_01: And so that's what happened with Salt and Broom.
1:06:38
SPEAKER_01: I was really interested.
1:06:41
SPEAKER_01: There were so many mentions of kind of...
1:06:45
um,
1:06:46
which is fairies and things in the original text that I wanted
1:06:49
more of that.
1:06:50
I was like,
1:06:51
I want that to be real,
1:06:52
not just like these things that they mentioned in the story.
1:06:55
SPEAKER_01: I want that to be real.
1:06:57
SPEAKER_01: And that would be now,
1:06:58
SPEAKER_01: wouldn't that be a story,
1:06:59
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:06:59
SPEAKER_01: for me,
1:07:00
SPEAKER_01: that was kind of some of my thinking,
1:07:01
SPEAKER_01: like I would love to read that book.
1:07:03
SPEAKER_01: And so that's what I did with that.
1:07:04
I,
1:07:05
I took a core of it and then I've said,
1:07:08
you know,
1:07:08
I want to tell this story as,
1:07:10
um,
1:07:11
SPEAKER_01: Um, I, I want it to be witchy.
1:07:13
SPEAKER_01: I want it to be magical and, and yeah, and that's what happened.
1:07:17
And kind of similarly with teen alchemy,
1:07:20
um,
1:07:22
like I started with,
1:07:24
I,
1:07:24
this is a spoiler.
1:07:25
SPEAKER_01: I mean, you find this out right away in the story.
1:07:28
SPEAKER_01: You can cut this out later if you want to, but like, uh, you know, I,
1:07:34
SPEAKER_01: I love vampire stories and,
1:07:37
SPEAKER_01: but I wanted to like,
1:07:39
SPEAKER_01: I asked myself,
1:07:40
SPEAKER_01: well,
1:07:40
SPEAKER_01: how would I tell,
1:07:41
SPEAKER_01: how would I tell a vampire story?
1:07:42
Like what would be the,
1:07:44
you know,
1:07:45
what,
1:07:46
what compels me about those kinds of stories?
1:07:48
SPEAKER_01: What is compelling to me about those kinds of stories?
1:07:51
SPEAKER_01: And, and so that's, that's what I did with that.
1:07:55
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:07:56
And then really with Grim Curiosities,
1:07:57
it was more about,
1:07:58
it was about books.
1:08:00
SPEAKER_01: Even though, you know, there's a lot of folklore, you know,
1:08:04
SPEAKER_01: It was kind of like I liked the idea of doing something that was kind of
1:08:11
SPEAKER_01: reminiscent of like a Christmas,
1:08:13
SPEAKER_01: like Dickens,
1:08:13
SPEAKER_01: a Christmas.
1:08:14
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it had a very Dickens vibe.
1:08:16
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:08:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:08:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:08:17
SPEAKER_01: I liked I wanted to tell a story like that,
1:08:19
SPEAKER_01: but I wanted to make obviously to make it more magical and fun.
1:08:24
SPEAKER_01: And I liked the idea.
1:08:26
SPEAKER_01: I love curiosity shops just personally.
1:08:29
SPEAKER_01: And when I visited York,
1:08:31
there's that it just the whole city has kind of like in the old
1:08:35
town has that kind
1:08:36
SPEAKER_01: of there are like curiosity type shops there.
1:08:39
SPEAKER_01: And like, yeah, it just felt like it went together so well.
1:08:42
And then just the idea of these old books that that there was
1:08:46
some mystery around,
1:08:48
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:08:48
SPEAKER_01: those kind of things all came together.
1:08:50
SPEAKER_01: And I'm not sure that that was fully answering your question, but.
1:08:53
SPEAKER_01: I think I got at some of it.
1:08:55
SPEAKER_00: That's okay.
1:08:56
Because in reading Grim Curiosities,
1:08:58
I was like,
1:08:59
oh,
1:08:59
I want to read the books in the book.
1:09:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, right.
1:09:03
SPEAKER_00: Right.
1:09:04
SPEAKER_00: And I don't want to give the spoiler about that closet cupboard.
1:09:10
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:09:11
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
1:09:12
SPEAKER_00: That could have so many other stories just going.
1:09:15
SPEAKER_00: Right.
1:09:16
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
1:09:16
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
1:09:17
SPEAKER_01: As a matter of fact,
1:09:17
SPEAKER_01: a good friend of mine who read the book early on,
1:09:20
SPEAKER_01: she was like,
1:09:21
SPEAKER_01: you're going to write more of these about these people,
1:09:23
SPEAKER_01: right?
1:09:24
SPEAKER_01: I have to see what my publisher wants, but I wouldn't be opposed.
1:09:27
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:09:28
SPEAKER_00: That kept me like, oh, I more about that.
1:09:31
SPEAKER_00: So you all read the books.
1:09:35
SPEAKER_00: So now just fascinating.
1:09:37
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:09:39
SPEAKER_00: And what,
1:09:40
SPEAKER_00: in terms of what,
1:09:41
SPEAKER_00: can you share a little bit of what you're writing now,
1:09:43
SPEAKER_00: the book that might be coming out?
1:09:46
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:09:46
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:09:46
SPEAKER_01: So one of the things I really liked about,
1:09:49
SPEAKER_01: or one of the aspects of Salt and Brume I enjoyed writing was the
1:09:54
The apothecary garden,
1:09:56
you know,
1:09:57
on the grounds there's a small poison slash apothecary garden.
1:10:01
SPEAKER_01: And I'm really kind of fascinated by those.
1:10:04
SPEAKER_01: And I just kept thinking,
1:10:05
SPEAKER_01: oh,
1:10:06
it would be fun to write one where that is a more central
1:10:09
aspect of the story.
1:10:11
SPEAKER_01: And so...
1:10:12
the new one is that it's set in Cumbria in the Lake District
1:10:19
and there is a house
1:10:21
SPEAKER_01: with a glass house that has a poison garden and there's a woman a botany
1:10:30
illustrator who I won't go into too much detail about the back
1:10:34
story but who ends
1:10:35
SPEAKER_01: up going there to illustrate and to catalog the plants and
1:10:42
Then the house,
1:10:46
she starts to find out that the house is,
1:10:47
there's some strange things going on.
1:10:49
SPEAKER_01: And she's dealing with this,
1:10:51
SPEAKER_01: this,
1:10:52
SPEAKER_01: the only other person who's there is this gardener who works,
1:10:55
SPEAKER_01: groundskeeper who works there,
1:10:57
SPEAKER_01: who she begins to refer to the grumpy Viking gardener.
1:11:02
SPEAKER_00: You had me at Viking, so.
1:11:04
SPEAKER_00: Right.
1:11:04
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:11:04
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:11:08
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:11:09
SPEAKER_01: So, uh, and, and it's, uh, the current title of it is Bane Bloom.
1:11:12
SPEAKER_01: And we'll see, you know, if we end up with that title in the end, but.
1:11:16
SPEAKER_00: Oh, I love that.
1:11:17
SPEAKER_00: I hope it is.
1:11:18
Cause when you mentioned the,
1:11:19
uh,
1:11:20
the poison garden,
1:11:22
uh,
1:11:22
I was about to say the Banes.
1:11:24
Yeah.
1:11:24
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:11:25
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:11:25
SPEAKER_01: So this, the, the book, um, yeah.
1:11:28
So Bane is a,
1:11:29
is a family name in the book and it's a part of a big family
1:11:32
mystery.
1:11:33
SPEAKER_01: And it has, um, there are more kind of old, this has some, uh,
1:11:38
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:11:38
SPEAKER_01: some of the elements from the other stories are,
1:11:40
SPEAKER_01: are old,
1:11:40
SPEAKER_01: old documents and books and,
1:11:43
SPEAKER_01: um,
1:11:43
SPEAKER_01: poisonous plants and a little bit of witchy stuff too.
1:11:47
SPEAKER_01: And so, yeah, that's the next one.
1:11:51
Authors are really terrible at telling when you ask an author,
1:11:54
what's your story about?
1:11:55
SPEAKER_01: You never, I mean, I feel like this is pretty universal.
1:11:57
SPEAKER_01: You never get this like succinct thing.
1:11:59
SPEAKER_01: You just get this rambling thing about where it's said.
1:12:02
SPEAKER_01: And I
1:12:03
i think that's kind of normal yeah i mean to be honest i've
1:12:07
heard other authors say
1:12:08
they freeze up completely when someone says what's this book
1:12:11
about and then you
1:12:11
just start talking and pretty soon you don't really know if
1:12:14
you're giving any
1:12:14
helpful information i mean i i'm back in the viking it's got a
1:12:19
poison garden the
1:12:21
family name is bane sign me up it's in the lake district what
1:12:25
more do i need you
1:12:26
SPEAKER_00: know
1:12:30
SPEAKER_00: But so for for those of us who are already looking forward to reading,
1:12:34
SPEAKER_00: is it towards the end of the year that might be coming out?
1:12:37
SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm suspecting so,
1:12:39
SPEAKER_01: because that's when the last three have come out,
1:12:42
SPEAKER_01: either in the fall or the winter.
1:12:44
SPEAKER_01: And it.
1:12:47
SPEAKER_01: Although Teen Alchemy officially came out,
1:12:49
SPEAKER_01: it was on first reads in December,
1:12:52
SPEAKER_01: but it didn't officially come out until January 1st.
1:12:56
SPEAKER_01: So because of that,
1:12:58
SPEAKER_01: because it had a release date of early this year,
1:13:00
SPEAKER_01: I can't be positive about what the date will be,
1:13:04
SPEAKER_01: but I'm guessing it'll be towards the end of the year.
1:13:06
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:13:07
SPEAKER_00: Very fall vibes already.
1:13:10
SPEAKER_00: Hopefully, you know, kind of winter vibes.
1:13:12
SPEAKER_01: It's yeah.
1:13:13
I mean,
1:13:13
this this story is actually set in the spring,
1:13:16
which is the first.
1:13:17
But it does have like the the prologue is set in October and
1:13:23
there's it's got a lot
1:13:24
SPEAKER_01: of very spooky elements.
1:13:26
SPEAKER_01: But in order to not have a lot of inclement weather.
1:13:30
SPEAKER_01: And to have growing things.
1:13:32
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, and also I visited the Lake District in the spring, too.
1:13:37
SPEAKER_01: So that kind of I mean,
1:13:38
SPEAKER_01: I visited York in the spring,
1:13:39
SPEAKER_01: too,
1:13:39
SPEAKER_01: and that didn't really affect me for grim curiosities.
1:13:42
SPEAKER_01: But in this case, it seemed to make sense for it to be a spring setting.
1:13:47
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:13:48
SPEAKER_00: I'm curious, how do the stories come to you?
1:13:51
Is it like some some people say it's a scene or how does how do
1:13:55
they knock on your mind?
1:13:58
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:13:58
SPEAKER_01: So,
1:14:00
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
1:14:01
Salt and Broom was kind of an exception because it was based on
1:14:04
a previous book,
1:14:06
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:14:06
SPEAKER_01: an existing book.
1:14:07
SPEAKER_01: But.
1:14:09
SPEAKER_01: Usually I'm really inspired by settings.
1:14:12
SPEAKER_01: So for example,
1:14:16
SPEAKER_01: the last,
1:14:18
SPEAKER_01: the book that's coming out soon,
1:14:21
SPEAKER_01: and then the,
1:14:22
SPEAKER_01: how many books have I written?
1:14:25
And the previous three books were all set in locations that I
1:14:30
visited on my,
1:14:32
SPEAKER_01: when I went to England a few years ago.
1:14:34
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, Cornwall, Cumbria, York.
1:14:40
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:14:42
SPEAKER_01: I'm leaving one out.
1:14:43
SPEAKER_01: I feel like I am.
1:14:44
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
1:14:45
SPEAKER_00: Well, there's another one that you're currently riding, Edinburgh.
1:14:48
SPEAKER_01: Edinburgh, yeah.
1:14:50
SPEAKER_01: The one I'm forgetting is Salt and Broom, Yorkshire.
1:14:54
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:14:55
SPEAKER_01: So my first trip to England a couple of years ago,
1:14:59
SPEAKER_01: I visited Cornwall,
1:15:00
SPEAKER_01: Yorkshire,
1:15:01
SPEAKER_01: Cumbria,
1:15:02
SPEAKER_01: and...
1:15:04
SPEAKER_01: Whatever one I'm leaving out now, York.
1:15:06
SPEAKER_01: So those are both Jane Eyre,
1:15:08
the Jane Eyre retelling and Graham Curiosities were both set in
1:15:11
Yorkshire.
1:15:12
And then the one that I'm about to start writing now,
1:15:18
I went to Scotland last year.
1:15:21
SPEAKER_01: Last year, last spring.
1:15:23
SPEAKER_01: And so I'm planning to write, I am writing a story set in Edinburgh.
1:15:29
And then another one,
1:15:30
the next,
1:15:31
probably the one after that will be set in the Highlands.
1:15:34
SPEAKER_01: But I, and I have, that one's, you know, that one's a little ways out.
1:15:38
SPEAKER_01: So yeah.
1:15:39
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:15:40
SPEAKER_01: But so I guess in answer to your question,
1:15:42
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:15:42
SPEAKER_01: I'm very much inspired by the places that I visit.
1:15:45
SPEAKER_01: For example,
1:15:46
SPEAKER_01: when I visited Roach Rock in Cornwall,
1:15:49
SPEAKER_01: like,
1:15:49
SPEAKER_01: okay,
1:15:50
SPEAKER_01: obviously this is going to be a setting for a story.
1:15:52
SPEAKER_01: And that story was very much inspired by that location.
1:15:55
SPEAKER_01: So there's that.
1:15:57
SPEAKER_01: And then usually once I have a location, it kind of starts with a...
1:16:03
SPEAKER_01: like a first,
1:16:04
SPEAKER_01: an idea of kind of a first scene and where the story would go from there,
1:16:08
SPEAKER_01: if that makes sense.
1:16:10
SPEAKER_01: Sometimes it's title.
1:16:11
SPEAKER_01: The very first book that I had published,
1:16:14
SPEAKER_01: Ghost Planet,
1:16:14
SPEAKER_01: was like,
1:16:15
SPEAKER_01: I came up with the title and I was like,
1:16:17
SPEAKER_01: well,
1:16:17
SPEAKER_01: what would that story be about?
1:16:19
SPEAKER_01: And wrote it completely from that.
1:16:20
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, you never can tell.
1:16:24
But I love this idea that the place,
1:16:26
the being in the place kind of inspires you.
1:16:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
1:16:32
a lot of the places you mentioned I visited or haven't been to
1:16:35
the Lake District.
1:16:36
SPEAKER_00: So now I'm like, so when Sharon announced that she's going on vacation,
1:16:42
SPEAKER_00: You know what's coming.
1:16:45
SPEAKER_00: We know it's coming.
1:16:47
SPEAKER_00: Just out of curiosity, you said you were in Scotland last spring.
1:16:50
SPEAKER_00: When did I wasn't there?
1:16:52
SPEAKER_00: End of May.
1:16:54
SPEAKER_01: Oh, I was also there.
1:16:55
SPEAKER_01: I was there the second half of May.
1:16:58
SPEAKER_00: Me too.
1:16:59
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's funny.
1:17:00
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:17:03
SPEAKER_00: I did go through mainly the Highlands and we went to Orkney.
1:17:08
SPEAKER_00: And then the last part was Edinburgh.
1:17:11
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
1:17:12
SPEAKER_01: I spent quite a lot of time.
1:17:13
I was traveling by myself and I spent probably like a week and
1:17:16
a half in Edinburgh.
1:17:18
SPEAKER_01: And then I did two tours because I didn't want to tackle.
1:17:24
SPEAKER_01: We talked about this earlier.
1:17:25
SPEAKER_01: I think I didn't want to tackle driving by myself.
1:17:29
SPEAKER_01: And so I did two tours in the Highlands.
1:17:31
SPEAKER_01: I did...
1:17:33
one that was kind of just in the area,
1:17:36
like kind of directly north of Edinburgh.
1:17:38
SPEAKER_01: And then the other one went further west.
1:17:42
SPEAKER_01: And then we went to Skye and Lewis and Harris and yeah,
1:17:48
SPEAKER_01: and like Oolipool and that kind of that area.
1:17:52
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:17:53
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:17:54
SPEAKER_00: I got to Sky.
1:17:55
SPEAKER_00: I still have to go Lewis and Harris.
1:17:57
SPEAKER_00: I haven't done that.
1:17:58
SPEAKER_01: I liked it.
1:17:59
SPEAKER_01: It's so completely different from Sky.
1:18:00
SPEAKER_01: Like, I was really surprised how different it was.
1:18:03
SPEAKER_01: But it was really beautiful.
1:18:05
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:18:05
SPEAKER_00: Beautiful.
1:18:06
SPEAKER_00: Beautiful.
1:18:08
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:18:08
SPEAKER_00: Now, so, yeah, the place itself just calls for stories, right?
1:18:12
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
1:18:14
Sky to me was like,
1:18:15
oh,
1:18:15
my God,
1:18:16
these mountains here,
1:18:19
these hills,
1:18:19
they're like old gods.
1:18:21
SPEAKER_01: Castle.
1:18:22
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:18:22
SPEAKER_01: It's something so compelling.
1:18:25
SPEAKER_01: So compelling.
1:18:26
SPEAKER_01: I want to go back to Sky because,
1:18:28
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:18:28
SPEAKER_01: when you're on a tour,
1:18:29
SPEAKER_01: you don't really get,
1:18:29
SPEAKER_01: I didn't get to hike or anything,
1:18:31
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:18:32
SPEAKER_01: and that just,
1:18:33
SPEAKER_01: that place just begs for you to like walk all over it.
1:18:35
SPEAKER_00: It does.
1:18:37
SPEAKER_00: It's so much.
1:18:38
SPEAKER_00: It's so atmospheric, I guess.
1:18:41
SPEAKER_00: It's like you just talk about vibes, right?
1:18:44
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
1:18:45
SPEAKER_00: It's all around.
1:18:47
SPEAKER_00: Oh, well, I am looking forward to all of them.
1:18:51
SPEAKER_00: Very looking forward to the next one, the Lake District.
1:18:54
SPEAKER_00: So hopefully it comes out towards the end of the year.
1:18:57
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:18:58
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:18:59
SPEAKER_00: Wow.
1:18:59
SPEAKER_00: So as we're getting towards the end here,
1:19:03
SPEAKER_00: I'd like to do a little rapid fire question.
1:19:05
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
1:19:07
SPEAKER_00: And just answer from your gut.
1:19:09
SPEAKER_00: Go as what feels right to you.
1:19:11
SPEAKER_00: I will try.
1:19:13
SPEAKER_00: There's no right or wrong here.
1:19:15
SPEAKER_00: So the podcast is called Romancing the Threshold.
1:19:21
SPEAKER_00: And so when you hear that phrase,
1:19:23
SPEAKER_00: what's the first image,
1:19:24
SPEAKER_00: feeling,
1:19:25
SPEAKER_00: or an idea that comes to mind for you?
1:19:27
SPEAKER_01: I guess I think
1:19:34
The first thing that probably comes to mind is kind of the idea
1:19:38
of liminal spaces
1:19:39
SPEAKER_01: and the spaces between spaces,
1:19:43
SPEAKER_01: like spaces between worlds.
1:19:46
SPEAKER_01: And I feel like with my books,
1:19:48
SPEAKER_01: that's a lot of what I'm kind of exploring is these people are all –
1:19:55
SPEAKER_01: in between lives,
1:19:56
SPEAKER_01: kind of what their,
1:19:57
SPEAKER_01: what life was before and what their life will be after,
1:20:00
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:20:01
SPEAKER_01: the stories completed,
1:20:02
SPEAKER_01: they're very different.
1:20:03
SPEAKER_01: And so, but then also sometimes there's literal, um,
1:20:07
like doors,
1:20:08
you know,
1:20:09
between obviously,
1:20:10
you know,
1:20:11
places that are between worlds.
1:20:12
SPEAKER_01: And so I guess that would be, yeah, what first comes to mind.
1:20:16
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:20:17
SPEAKER_00: You know, as you answered that, I never thought of this.
1:20:21
A romance novel in a way is a threshold because the characters
1:20:24
come together.
1:20:25
SPEAKER_00: There's all this is in between who they were and what's going to be next.
1:20:30
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
1:20:31
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:20:31
SPEAKER_01: It's a turning point.
1:20:32
SPEAKER_00: It's a turning point.
1:20:33
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:20:35
So if you could keep one object on your writing desk that acts
1:20:40
as a talisman,
1:20:40
SPEAKER_00: maybe you already have that for your creative process.
1:20:44
SPEAKER_00: What is it?
1:20:45
SPEAKER_00: If you can share that.
1:20:46
SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
1:20:47
SPEAKER_01: I'm just trying to think.
1:20:48
SPEAKER_01: I've got so many things like I I'm kind of a magpie.
1:20:51
SPEAKER_01: And so I have like.
1:20:53
SPEAKER_01: Well, also the other thing is I move around the house.
1:20:56
SPEAKER_01: Like I don't actually use my office a whole lot because I work some,
1:21:01
SPEAKER_01: we have a fireplace in the living room and I'll,
1:21:03
SPEAKER_01: when it's cold,
1:21:04
SPEAKER_01: I'll work in there.
1:21:05
SPEAKER_01: Sometimes I work at the kitchen table.
1:21:06
And,
1:21:07
but like right now I'm looking at what's in front of me and I'm
1:21:09
like,
1:21:09
SPEAKER_01: There's stones,
1:21:10
SPEAKER_01: there's shells,
1:21:11
SPEAKER_01: there's,
1:21:11
SPEAKER_01: I have a,
1:21:12
SPEAKER_01: I have,
1:21:12
SPEAKER_01: well,
1:21:12
SPEAKER_01: nobody will be able to see this,
1:21:13
SPEAKER_01: but I'll describe,
1:21:14
I have a hagstone that I got when I was working on salt and
1:21:18
broom and candles.
1:21:21
SPEAKER_01: I like, I have like a lot of different scented candles.
1:21:24
SPEAKER_01: And so there's really crystals.
1:21:28
SPEAKER_01: Like there's really not one single thing.
1:21:30
It's kind of stuff I've picked up that I have special to me for
1:21:34
some reason,
1:21:35
you know.
1:21:36
And I'll switch things around depending on what kind of what I
1:21:38
need for,
1:21:39
you know,
1:21:39
at that time.
1:21:40
SPEAKER_01: And I oftentimes...
1:21:43
will like purchase things that will be with me throughout the
1:21:48
writing of a book.
1:21:49
SPEAKER_01: And like the hagstone was from Salt and Broom.
1:21:52
And I just recently bought this candle that's called Edinburgh
1:21:57
Library that has
1:22:00
SPEAKER_01: this kind of,
1:22:01
SPEAKER_01: I don't know,
1:22:02
SPEAKER_01: I don't know what they put in it,
1:22:03
SPEAKER_01: but it smells wonderful.
1:22:04
SPEAKER_01: And it's supposed to kind of evoke the kind of outdoor smells there too,
1:22:08
SPEAKER_01: but also kind of,
1:22:10
SPEAKER_01: I don't know,
1:22:10
SPEAKER_01: just give you the sense of someplace old.
1:22:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:22:13
SPEAKER_01: And yeah, so I tend to kind of do that with my books.
1:22:16
SPEAKER_01: I find something,
1:22:17
SPEAKER_01: some object,
1:22:18
SPEAKER_01: sometimes more than one that I kind of connect you with tea and alchemy.
1:22:21
SPEAKER_01: I drank a certain tea the whole time I was drinking.
1:22:25
SPEAKER_01: I made a mixture of Lapsang Souchong with rose water.
1:22:29
SPEAKER_01: And so it was kind of a smoky rose tea,
1:22:31
SPEAKER_01: which both of the,
1:22:32
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:22:33
SPEAKER_01: the tea and roses had a part in that story.
1:22:35
SPEAKER_01: And so, yeah, it just kind of varies from story to story.
1:22:39
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:22:39
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:22:41
And which of your heroines taught you something you didn't
1:22:46
expect to learn about yourself?
1:22:49
SPEAKER_01: Oh, oh, boy.
1:22:51
SPEAKER_01: Let's see.
1:22:52
SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's a hard one.
1:22:58
SPEAKER_01: Let me think for a second.
1:23:00
SPEAKER_01: I mean, you know, that's not actually true because
1:23:03
SPEAKER_01: I'm not going to I may have a hard time thinking of a specific example,
1:23:06
but I remember a couple of I have a really great editor that I
1:23:10
work with through
1:23:11
SPEAKER_01: the publisher.
1:23:12
SPEAKER_01: And sometimes she will recommend that I expand on on something,
1:23:19
SPEAKER_01: some feeling or some thoughts of a specific character.
1:23:23
SPEAKER_01: And I'll end up like really going kind of deep into my own my own.
1:23:29
SPEAKER_01: psyche to try and, you know, to try and answer that.
1:23:33
SPEAKER_01: And there was,
1:23:34
SPEAKER_01: there was one in particular that was,
1:23:35
SPEAKER_01: that was really stood out in Salt and Broom,
1:23:37
SPEAKER_01: but of course I am not going to be able to remember what it was now.
1:23:39
SPEAKER_01: But,
1:23:40
SPEAKER_01: um,
1:23:40
SPEAKER_01: it,
1:23:41
SPEAKER_01: it,
1:23:41
SPEAKER_01: it does happen like,
1:23:42
SPEAKER_01: um,
1:23:43
SPEAKER_01: especially in later,
1:23:44
SPEAKER_01: uh,
1:23:44
SPEAKER_01: rounds of editing where you're starting,
1:23:46
SPEAKER_01: you're,
1:23:47
SPEAKER_01: you're layering things and deepening things and you,
1:23:50
SPEAKER_01: you realize,
1:23:51
SPEAKER_01: um,
1:23:54
SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
1:23:55
I learned something about a pattern of thinking or things like
1:24:03
I might do for
1:24:03
SPEAKER_01: protecting myself.
1:24:06
Just all kinds of things like that that will pop up as I'm
1:24:09
developing a character.
1:24:10
SPEAKER_01: And I'm really sorry.
1:24:12
SPEAKER_01: I can't think of a specific one right now.
1:24:16
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
1:24:16
but I guess what I'm hearing here too is that for each
1:24:19
character that you've
1:24:20
SPEAKER_00: written,
1:24:21
there's something that arises and it seems to happen in the
1:24:24
editorial process.
1:24:26
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
1:24:26
SPEAKER_00: Because then you have to deepen.
1:24:28
SPEAKER_01: Yes, exactly.
1:24:30
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
1:24:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:24:31
SPEAKER_01: And so there's all,
1:24:33
SPEAKER_01: each main character,
1:24:35
SPEAKER_01: there is something that I can pretty strongly identify with about them.
1:24:38
SPEAKER_01: And so that usually draws something out.
1:24:40
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:24:41
Yeah.
1:24:43
What what's a piece of folklore myths or domestic magic that
1:24:49
you return to again
1:24:50
SPEAKER_00: and again,
1:24:53
SPEAKER_00: something that never stops revealing new layers for you?
1:24:58
SPEAKER_01: Let's see.
1:25:00
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'm pretty obsessed with like tea for one thing.
1:25:05
SPEAKER_01: That's a ritual that I'm, this is really important to me.
1:25:08
And I'm always like,
1:25:10
you know,
1:25:11
like the term kitchen witch,
1:25:13
like I'm always...
1:25:14
I'm always,
1:25:16
like,
1:25:16
based on my vibes or my mood that day,
1:25:19
I'm always changing.
1:25:20
SPEAKER_01: And,
1:25:20
SPEAKER_01: like,
1:25:20
SPEAKER_01: I have,
1:25:21
SPEAKER_01: like,
1:25:21
one that I really like right now where it's Earl Grey that I
1:25:25
add rosemary and
1:25:27
SPEAKER_01: lavender and rose oil to,
1:25:30
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:25:31
SPEAKER_01: to give it kind of a...
1:25:32
SPEAKER_01: And I see,
1:25:33
SPEAKER_01: oh,
1:25:33
SPEAKER_01: the rosemary feels kind of grounding and it clears your mind.
1:25:36
SPEAKER_01: The lavender is...
1:25:37
SPEAKER_01: soothing also helps to clear your mind.
1:25:40
And then the rose water is,
1:25:42
um,
1:25:42
gives you kind of lifts your spirits and your energy.
1:25:45
And,
1:25:46
and so,
1:25:46
um,
1:25:48
that for me is definitely a strong kind of ritual throughout my
1:25:54
whole process.
1:25:55
SPEAKER_01: Um, and, uh,
1:25:59
It's and I mentioned,
1:26:00
you know,
1:26:01
the tea that I was drinking during tea and alchemy.
1:26:04
SPEAKER_01: And yeah,
1:26:06
SPEAKER_01: and I'm always kind of exploring new like combinations,
1:26:10
new and just finding new connections with with tea and black
1:26:14
tea and in particular.
1:26:16
SPEAKER_01: And then just this year, I've been watching reels by this company.
1:26:23
SPEAKER_01: She's in Glasgow, I believe, a practitioner.
1:26:27
SPEAKER_01: And I just love her.
1:26:29
SPEAKER_01: And she does these reels, you know.
1:26:30
SPEAKER_00: Does she have glasses?
1:26:32
SPEAKER_01: She does, yeah, long brown hair.
1:26:33
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
1:26:33
SPEAKER_01: And I just love her.
1:26:35
SPEAKER_01: And she shares little bits of her practice.
1:26:38
SPEAKER_01: And because of the whole tea thing,
1:26:40
one of the ones I found really compelling was how she uses this
1:26:44
silver spoon that
1:26:46
SPEAKER_01: she,
1:26:46
SPEAKER_01: that's like came from her grandmother or something.
1:26:49
SPEAKER_01: And you do...
1:26:52
SPEAKER_01: certain,
1:26:53
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:26:53
SPEAKER_01: you use it to like kind of manifest,
1:26:56
SPEAKER_01: like you can,
1:26:58
SPEAKER_01: as you stir,
1:26:58
SPEAKER_01: you can,
1:26:59
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:26:59
SPEAKER_01: think about what you are,
1:27:01
SPEAKER_01: what you're trying to manifest or,
1:27:02
SPEAKER_01: and it can be little things like,
1:27:04
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:27:04
SPEAKER_01: just having,
1:27:05
SPEAKER_01: you know,
1:27:05
SPEAKER_01: being more positive today or just any,
1:27:07
SPEAKER_01: anything.
1:27:08
And so I've kind of pulled that into my tea ritual too,
1:27:12
because I found that compelling.
1:27:13
SPEAKER_01: I have some Scottish ancestry too.
1:27:15
SPEAKER_01: So I connected with that.
1:27:19
SPEAKER_01: So that's
1:27:20
I guess for me,
1:27:20
kind of with those kind of from domestic magic perspective,
1:27:24
that would be it.
1:27:25
SPEAKER_01: And, um, this is not really what you asked, but I am kind of upset.
1:27:29
The folklore piece of folklore I'm kind of obsessed with right
1:27:31
now is Krampus ever
1:27:32
SPEAKER_01: since I,
1:27:32
SPEAKER_01: ever since I wrote,
1:27:35
SPEAKER_01: well,
1:27:35
SPEAKER_01: curiosities,
1:27:36
SPEAKER_01: I got kind of obsessed with that.
1:27:38
SPEAKER_01: And,
1:27:38
SPEAKER_01: and every Christmas it's like,
1:27:40
SPEAKER_01: what new Krampus thing can I get for our decorations this year or
1:27:46
SPEAKER_00: I know.
1:27:46
SPEAKER_00: I've been enjoying Krampus, too.
1:27:48
SPEAKER_00: It's like all of a sudden it's like, oh, never thought about that.
1:27:51
SPEAKER_00: But yeah.
1:27:52
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:27:53
SPEAKER_00: Tea and Krampus.
1:27:54
SPEAKER_00: I like that.
1:27:54
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
1:27:57
SPEAKER_01: I even have a mug with Krampus on it.
1:27:59
SPEAKER_00: So there you have it.
1:28:01
SPEAKER_00: Like you really it's all coming together.
1:28:03
SPEAKER_00: And if transformation had a flavor,
1:28:07
SPEAKER_00: it's maybe it's a tea,
1:28:09
SPEAKER_00: an herb or a spice or something stranger.
1:28:12
SPEAKER_00: What would it taste like to you?
1:28:15
transformation for,
1:28:18
I don't know why,
1:28:18
but for some reason,
1:28:19
lemon popped right into my head.
1:28:20
SPEAKER_01: Um,
1:28:22
SPEAKER_01: so,
1:28:22
SPEAKER_01: uh,
1:28:25
SPEAKER_01: lemon,
1:28:27
SPEAKER_01: um,
1:28:28
SPEAKER_01: maybe kind of a lemon herbal vibe,
1:28:31
SPEAKER_01: like,
1:28:32
SPEAKER_01: um,
1:28:33
SPEAKER_01: also maybe time,
1:28:35
SPEAKER_01: maybe lemon time,
1:28:38
SPEAKER_01: honey.
1:28:39
SPEAKER_01: That sounds good.
1:28:41
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:28:41
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:28:43
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
1:28:44
SPEAKER_01: I just pulled those right out of the air.
1:28:46
SPEAKER_00: That's great.
1:28:47
SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's it.
1:28:47
SPEAKER_00: That's really the point of these questions.
1:28:49
SPEAKER_00: But maybe we need to try lemon thyme and honey, right?
1:28:56
SPEAKER_00: That's what transformation tastes like.
1:28:57
SPEAKER_00: It's a little sour, gets a little sweet, a little grounding.
1:29:01
SPEAKER_00: You do a little pucker face.
1:29:04
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:29:07
SPEAKER_00: Ooh, you know, I love that.
1:29:09
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yes.
1:29:10
SPEAKER_00: We got to give it a go.
1:29:11
SPEAKER_00: And,
1:29:12
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:29:12
maybe this is an invitation for you to start the tea
1:29:16
combination with the books,
1:29:17
SPEAKER_00: you know?
1:29:18
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, really.
1:29:20
SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's a, yeah.
1:29:22
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, I got to figure out this next one now.
1:29:24
SPEAKER_01: So that's part of the fun.
1:29:26
Some authors share their playlist of music when,
1:29:29
you know,
1:29:30
you can share the tea recipe.
1:29:31
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
1:29:32
Yeah,
1:29:32
that's a good idea because I definitely always that's always a
1:29:36
component.
1:29:37
SPEAKER_01: And it's fun, too.
1:29:38
SPEAKER_01: I enjoy.
1:29:38
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:29:40
SPEAKER_01: And it helps with inspiration, too.
1:29:42
SPEAKER_01: It does.
1:29:42
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think so.
1:29:45
SPEAKER_00: Well, Sharon, this has been a joy.
1:29:46
SPEAKER_00: I learned a lot, lots of ideas to think about.
1:29:51
SPEAKER_00: I really enjoy it.
1:29:51
SPEAKER_00: I invite folks, go ahead, grab those books.
1:29:55
There's,
1:29:55
you know,
1:29:57
grab a cup of tea or coffee if that's your preference and go
1:30:00
for it.
1:30:01
SPEAKER_00: And I'm looking forward to the next books.
1:30:03
SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
1:30:04
SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much, Vanessa, for having me.
1:30:06
SPEAKER_01: I've really enjoyed talking with you.
1:30:07
SPEAKER_01: It's a pleasure to kind of talk through some of these things.
1:30:10
SPEAKER_01: It's not like the kind of conversations I have every day,
1:30:13
SPEAKER_01: but I find it,
1:30:13
SPEAKER_01: always find it fascinating.
1:30:15
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no.
1:30:16
You know,
1:30:16
to talk about the books in here where other people have to say
1:30:19
too.
1:30:19
SPEAKER_01: And, you know.
1:30:21
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I really enjoyed it.
1:30:23
SPEAKER_00: And I hope this reaches your readers and other people to read your books,
1:30:26
SPEAKER_00: because I think we do live in times where the stories matter.
1:30:31
SPEAKER_00: You know, I know we grapple with this still.
1:30:34
SPEAKER_00: Is it is it not enough?
1:30:36
SPEAKER_00: Is it enough for now?
1:30:37
SPEAKER_00: But nothing like a good story to inspire us.
1:30:41
SPEAKER_00: I agree.
1:30:42
SPEAKER_00: Even if it's for a good cup of tea.
1:30:44
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
1:30:47
SPEAKER_01: Perfect note to end on.
1:30:48
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
1:30:51
SPEAKER_00: What stays with me from this conversation is something simple.
1:30:55
SPEAKER_00: That the things we're most tempted to dismiss,
1:30:58
SPEAKER_00: the cup of tea,
1:31:00
SPEAKER_00: the book we've reread several times,
1:31:03
SPEAKER_00: the small ritual no one sees,
1:31:06
SPEAKER_00: might be doing more than we give them credit for.
1:31:09
SPEAKER_00: Not because they're secretly epic, but because they tend to what's torn.
1:31:16
SPEAKER_00: They hold what's fraying, quietly, without asking for recognition.
1:31:23
SPEAKER_00: So here's my question for you.
1:31:25
SPEAKER_00: What have you been told doesn't count that keeps calling you back anyway?
1:31:31
SPEAKER_00: Maybe it's a book that you would never admit that you read.
1:31:34
SPEAKER_00: Maybe it's a trope that you love to reread again and again.
1:31:40
SPEAKER_00: Maybe it's a practice that feels too small to matter.
1:31:45
SPEAKER_00: Whatever it is, take a closer look.
1:31:48
SPEAKER_00: Bring some curiosity to it.
1:31:51
Notice what rises when you stay present to it without needing
1:31:55
to justify or explain it away.
1:31:59
If this conversation sparked something for you,
1:32:02
share it with someone who needs to hear it.
1:32:05
SPEAKER_00: And if you want more of this,
1:32:07
I write on Substack about finding the medicine in what gets
1:32:10
dismissed as profane,
1:32:13
SPEAKER_00: the depth hiding in the fluff.
1:32:16
That's the deeper conversation this podcast is part of,
1:32:19
and I'd love you to join it.
1:32:22
SPEAKER_00: Subscribe and leave a comment.
1:32:24
SPEAKER_00: Tell me what's calling you back.
1:32:26
SPEAKER_00: I really do want to know.
1:32:28
And if you're a romance reader who suspects there's more going
1:32:32
on in your reading
1:32:32
SPEAKER_00: life than you've been told,
1:32:35
SPEAKER_00: join me for your pleasure book club.
1:32:38
SPEAKER_00: It's free.
1:32:39
SPEAKER_00: It's monthly.
1:32:40
SPEAKER_00: It's on the last Sunday and it's online.
1:32:43
SPEAKER_00: There's no assigned reading.
1:32:44
Just bring whatever romance is calling you and a willingness to
1:32:49
ask why it chose you.
1:32:51
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for being here.
1:32:52
SPEAKER_00: And thank you, Sharon, for bringing the tea and the magic.