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Wholehearted Faith: How You Relate to God | Guest Jesse Eubanks Enneagram Three · The Wholehearted Enneagram Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Friend, this month on the podcast, I am focusing on wholehearted relationships, including a relationship with God and how that looks different for each personality type.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_01: If you happen to be an Enia Cast podcast fan, then today's guest is going to be a familiar voice to you.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_01: Also, if you watched the summit this last year, you've also gotten to meet Jesse Eubanks.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: He is joining me today to talk about his new book, How We Relate.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: Now you're going to hear more about his mistyping story, but Jesse has now determined that he is an Enneagram 3 with a quote unquote raging four-wing.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_01: It does come so naturally to him to share about emotions and not run in the opposite direction, even with those difficult or sad emotions.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, as an Enneagram 7, I find his leadership so inspirational.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: Now, Jesse is a husband, a dad, and the founder and director of Love Thy Neighborhood.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_01: He hosts the Love Thy Neighborhood podcast and the IneaCast podcast.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_01: I also got the privilege to be on Jesse's IneaCast podcast back in November.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: I specifically shared about how Enneagram sevens relate to God.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: Well, at least my version as Living as an Enneagram 7 relating to God.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: It was also an extremely vulnerable conversation, but a few of my friends have said what a positive impact it's had in their life.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: So I've linked it in the show notes if you want to listen to that episode.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_01: Today, Jesse's going to share about a lot of things, but here are four things to look for.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: First, he's going to talk about how the father's delight in him is what drew him to Christ.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: He will also be sharing his mistyping story.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: Third, look for the story of the commercial that deeply touched Jesse.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_01: I was tearing up as he told the story.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: And last but not least, be looking for insight about how an Enneagram 3 struggles when it comes time to spending with the Lord.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_01: It was really insightful, and I really think you may find his honesty refreshing, encouraging, and maybe empowering in your walk with the Lord and how you relate to him.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_01: All right, let's get this amazing conversation started.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_01: Hello and welcome to the Simply Wholehearted Podcast.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: I'm your host, Amy Wicks, your wholehearted living coach.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm so glad that you stopped by to spend some time with me.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_01: Are you curious about the Enneagram?
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_01: Do you want to learn biblical truths?
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_01: And have you wondered if there are life rhythms that will help you thrive?
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: Well, friend, you are in the right place.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: For six years, this podcast has focused on sharing conversations with my friends about life, business, motherhood, faith, and all things enneagram from a Christian perspective.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_01: I truly understand what it's like to juggle everything as a wife.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: Mom to three teenagers, a pup, and all while building a growing business.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: And friend, I haven't always done things with clarity, peace, and joy.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_01: But still, the Lord has taken my brokenhearted pieces and healed them so I can live with whole-hearted rhythms.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_01: To provide women like you with a step-by-step process so you can get free of anxiety, shame, and frustrations that might be holding you back from thriving.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: I pray that the Lord speaks to you as you listen today and that you would invite your friends and family to join the fun conversations.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: Are you ready to laugh a little and learn a whole lot?
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: Alrighty, let's get to the conversation.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_01: I still am experiencing a little bit of the vulnerability hangover, if I'm totally honest.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you, yeah, when we talked, you know, we got off that call and my co-host Lindsay and I both were like, man, Amy, she went there.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_02: Like it was, it was a great conversation.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: I I admittedly, um, it took me a little while to be willing to listen to it again because afterwards I was like, whoa, I shared way more than I had planned on.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: And and I think that's the thing.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: As a seven, I don't typically plan or rehearse what I'm gonna say.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, typically.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_01: And um, I didn't.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_01: I just I felt like I was talking to some friends who love the Lord.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: And um, so, but I've gotten some really neat um communication from that episode specifically of hey, thank you for sharing so openly and honestly.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: So um anyway, thanks for the opportunity.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, it was it was our pleasure.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_02: And I think too, like um, you modeled in a lot of ways what all of us are trying to do, which is um to be honest to about what's going on and where we are and uh in this bizarre experience of life that we're all having.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um but I think likewise you also are being honest about the fact that we sort of dip our toes into the waters and it's terrifying.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_02: And then we want to back out.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it is.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: I was um talking with a client who is navigating a really tough family situation, which is I can relate to quite well.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, you know, the the thing is two years out, I can summarize in a very neat and clean two-sentence explanation to those who don't need to know the nitty-gritty.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um but when we're in the messy middle, it's it's hard to articulate.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so I do, I at least I did find those who would communicate and share about their messy middle brought me comfort, also helped me formulate language, some feelings.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and so the more I think that we can do that, obviously we have to protect other stories that are involved in the process.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I just think it allows for greater healing um for all those involved.
• 6:11
  unknown: Yeah.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_02: What is it, C.S.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_02: Lewis said, friendship starts when the other person says, What?
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_02: Me too.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_02: I thought I was the only one.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_02: You know, and and I think so much uh we're we're looking for folks that that can join in in our story and make us not feel insane.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_01: Which is why I really love the approach of your book.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_01: I may, I, as I was reading um your new book, I have it here, how we relate, understanding God, yourself, and others through the Enneagram.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um one, it it was just was so perfect to kick off what I love to focus on in February.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_01: We talk about wholehearted rhythms and February perfect to dive into relationships.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_01: And really kicking off that conversation about how is it that we relate to God and what does it look like to engage with God in a wholehearted way, especially when we have broken pieces, a broken story, often a broken heart.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: So you share a lot of stories in your book.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: You are very vulnerable.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_01: You share your experience of really that brokenhearted moment that led you to some wholehearted decisions.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: Do you want to summarize a little bit of that of what went into sharing your story and being vulnerable in some of the parts of the book?
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you know, it's funny.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_02: I actually uh had to cut out a whole lot of content because we just, you know, didn't have enough time for uh for all of it.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_02: Uh the the kind of the the book starts off with this story, this incident that took place in my life.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_02: And um, the story goes that a little over a decade ago, I was sitting with some other men in a small group environment, and each of the guys in the group was sharing about things that they were struggling with.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_02: And the guy leading the group was saying, you know, by sharing these things out loud, we will come to realize that other people are not judging us, but that we're accepted.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_02: All the while, I'm completely judging everybody else that's sitting around.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_02: So, like, uh, so that guy's a liar.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, but they're so they're all sharing, and as each person shares, um very rapidly, I'm like summarizing, I'm like, you know, this is your problem, and if you would just do this, this is your problem, and if you would just do this, and this is your problem.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm I'm thinking all these super judgmental thoughts, and I think I just have so much clarity, and then it gets to me, and I'm completely lost.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_02: I I don't really know what the issue is, I can't find the language.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I can't even fully figure out what's churning inside of me.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_02: And I have one of those moments, it's almost like one of those out-of-body emotional moments where I suddenly kind of see myself from the outside and I'm yelling, and that's why I'm mad at God.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I can feel everybody else in the room just sort of pull back a little bit.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_02: And uh, and that was this moment where I realized I don't really have the self-clarity that I thought.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_02: I don't really see reality as I thought I did.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and God really used that key moment to invite me into a new chapter of life.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_01: The honesty of the anger that you were feeling specifically towards God almost unleashed, right?
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_01: It maybe broke off something for you to take that step forward.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_02: And I think too, you know, you know, I don't talk a ton about this in in the book, but um uh the truth is that I was dealing with a whole lot of just deep, deep relational pain in my life, especially as it had to do with my own relationship with my own father.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_02: And I think there's no way around the fact that we map our earthly relationships onto God the Father.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_02: And so my my own dad had just so deeply wounded me and profoundly uh uh I had I had been abandoned repeatedly, uh, been deceived repeatedly, um, manipulated.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_02: It was just a very toxic and dysfunctional relationship, um, abusive relationship.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_02: And uh, and so suddenly here it is, and I'm I'm trying to be a minister of the gospel, you know, and occupationally I share about God's good news.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_02: And the truth is I had deep father wounds that I had no sense of how to repair and no sense of how to stop projecting those onto God Himself.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_01: What do you think, or what was the truth spoken over to you that you felt like, okay, now that I've maybe acknowledged, even confessed, been as bold as to confess the anger towards God, what helped you to take that next step where you begin to heal that?
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: And and for the record, I kind of think when it comes to father wounds, I don't know that there's like an in inside of feeling totally completely healed.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: I think that when we're with the father, we can experience the fullness of that, but it might be a lifelong journey.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I just want to throw that out there for those who are like, yeah, I'm in my 40s and 60s, and it's still sometimes something that impacts my relationship with Father God.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, uh if if I can barely hold on to relational health with the people that I can see and touch on a daily basis, I think it's reasonable to say that I'm gonna have a hardship um with a God that at times can be very elusive.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um and so um I think that for me the the turning point was twofold.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um I think that uh number one, um I got into really deep community with other people.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_02: So people started to get to know me at layers and levels that I had previously not realized that I had not been pursuing.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_02: I thought that I had been.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um and only realized that I needed to go a little further and deeper with that.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_02: But then the second piece um was uh getting into uh therapy with a really wise older man.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um and um and it was in the course of uh of of being with him that he introduced me to this thing called the Enneagram, and that became a mechanism, a tool that God used to give me some self-clarity that I was not able to see before.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_02: It really did work like a mirror, you know.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_02: You go around and you think, hey, I've got this great haircut, I look awesome, you know, and then you see yourself in the mirror and you're like, oh, that was a mistake.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and I think in the same way, I think in the same way, like the Enneagram became this thing where suddenly I could see things for what they were instead of what I thought they were.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_01: I really appreciate so many just one sentence, two sentence summaries of what the Enneagram is versus what it's not.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like it's sprinkled throughout your book.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's a great resource.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I know there's a lot of chatter right now surrounding, as a believer, as a person who loves Jesus, can we also use the Enneagram?
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_01: In short, I already wrote the book.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_01: The answer is yes.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_01: Decide on your teacher because that makes a big difference.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_01: But also, you know, to kind of throw in this idea here as far as how you utilize the tool.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_01: What you just talked about is you had someone who was trustworthy, who loved Jesus first and who was looking at your spiritual health as a whole, introduced a tool that was just part of the story.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, that those kind of that kind of aspect or engagement with this tool and this resource has to be part of a bigger picture and a bigger story.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_01: But as you discovered more about how you were wired, what did it let you know about more and your relationship to the God and how you related to God, not just this father wound, but how you were wired and how you were made to relate to God?
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, there's a couple layers to that.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_02: It's kind of interesting.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, for the last decade, I have identified as a type four.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_02: And in the course of writing my book and going through a lot of counseling, um, I actually came to realize that I was a type three.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_02: I am a type three.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: And no, I didn't.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: No, this is hot the press.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_02: I know I uh so I I say that to say this.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_02: My pain was so acute in so many in so many areas of life because of, you know, I know the word trauma is thrown around.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_02: I lived through real trauma.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um and uh and that was so difficult and painful for me that it could be very engulfing at times.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_02: And so there's so much.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_02: I so I say I'm I'm a three with a raging four-wing, uh, because I I have tons of pain.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_02: So all I have to say is what did it show me about myself?
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_02: It definitely um um showed me, you know, even in my foreness, it it showed me my my gifts of creativity.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it showed me um my uh ongoing disposition towards being different.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, I still to this day, that's a part of who I am.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_02: I do not enjoy convention very much.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but uh but also I do have this, I do have a longing, I do have a sense of uh really deep emotional desire that can at times compel me to act out of a wound um that uh that can really hurt the people around me.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_02: Now, in my threeness, um it it really has helped me to see that there are times where I can fuse the role with the person.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_02: I confuse um what it is that I'm doing, maybe even in this moment.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_02: In some way, in this moment, I'm cognizant of the fact that I'm on a podcast and then I'm on video and then I'm talking uh and I'm sharing and people are evaluating me.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_02: It's very hard for me as a person to turn off the sense that there's a stage.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I but I also um believe that I have tons of gifts in those areas and I want to leverage and utilize those gifts to help people.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um and so uh so it it's it's a both and it's it's the true and the false uh simultaneously.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_01: The two, three, four specifically really go after or have this innate desire for significance.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I love talking through those emotional desires, how they can also lead us to an emotional spiral, but to acknowledge the fact that those desires placed in us, they're not bad in itself.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_01: They're natural longings given by our creator, endowed to us by our creator.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_01: So that desire for significance is clearly strong.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_01: So, how has that uh been reconciled or is it uh satisfied at times in that connection with your creator who bestows upon all the significance we need?
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: How does that look?
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_01: And how does that, how do you wrestle that out in a way, especially being involved with ministry and something that is continually platformed and on a stage, if you will?
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it can be very challenging.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_02: You know, the the truth is that it can be hard.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_02: And um, there's this orange juice commercial.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_02: Let me let me just take a detour and I promise we're gonna cut back around.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_02: It's great.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so there's this years ago, uh, in the light of work that I do, so I run a nonprofit, a ministry called Love That Neighborhood.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_02: We do lots of different things.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_02: We work with young adults, we do podcasts, we do workshops, and we say it's all about helping people walk in the life and the lifestyle of Jesus.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_02: All that to say is that one of the things we do is we study the best commercials every year that come out.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_02: So about five years ago, when we were in the process of looking at the 20 best commercials, there's this one that came out in England.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm gonna do my very best to tell you it without crying.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_02: So if this is gonna give you a sense of where we're going.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_02: So there's this commercial, and it's an orange juice commercial.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_02: The commercial opens with there's two middle school boys, and they're out uh and they're uh reenacting Star Wars.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_02: At one point, they're walking down the street, and the one boy elbows the other and is like, Hey, is that Judy?
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_02: Isn't that the girl you have a crush on?
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_02: And the other boy's like, Shut up, stop talking about it.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, they go and they get into a little bit of mischief.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_02: They go home, they watch a movie, but then there's this turn where one of the boys falls asleep, and then the other middle school boy scoops him up in his arms, and he starts, he walks him up and he lays him in bed, and he puts the covers over him, turns out the lights, and then it cuts to the boy who's almost asleep, and he actually says, Good night, Dad.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_02: And it pans back.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_02: And the first boy you realize the whole time was actually his father.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my god.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_02: And there and and that that commercial I think symbolizes so much of the desire of what I want to be able to hold on to in my relationship with God, the withness, the sense that God has delight for me.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um but that is very elusive for me at times.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_02: Uh because my threeness, you know, I I sort of see the world as a productive place.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_02: There's things to do, we got to get things done.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um and that can make sitting and being and just basking in the Father's presence, it can it can be a very challenging disposition for me to take.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but it's the one that I desperately need.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, if I look back and think about when I became a Christian, it was not because people said you're a sinner and you need God's forgiveness.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_02: It was not because people said, Oh, you're an anxious, horrified mess and you need God's presence.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_02: It was people told me as a 13-year-old boy, you matter to God.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_02: And the father's delight washing over me is why I said, I want this Jesus.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_02: I figured out substitutionary atonement was like way down the line.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but it was the father's delight.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_02: And so all I had to say is that um I think that that's still the thing that's challenging for me that I I am trying to learn how to do is what does it mean to to love and be loved with God the Father?
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: Gosh, Jesse.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, tearing up for sure over that commercial, but this whole idea, uh, this is preaching to someone who's listening and needing to receive the Father's delight.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I just would echo the sentiment of um, interestingly, that is my word for the year is delight.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: And at first, when I said it to someone, they were like, oh, what a seven-word.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, I know, I know, but I don't think it means what you think it means.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: And um, it really is believing and receiving the belovedness, the delight.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I I really think I've owned the belovedness and that has been its own journey.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: But that that word delight, ooh, that's that's another level, right?
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_02: It makes me it makes me think of like uh Brendan Manning, you know, used to say, uh, God loves you as you are and not as you should be.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_02: And and and like that was his whole lifelong commitment was that I he wanted that message to go forward is that the father is wildly crazy passionate about you.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_02: Like you are the apple of his eye, you are the thing that he wants, you are the lost, you know, sheep, the lost coin.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_02: Like, and that is that's the longing I think that's inside of all of us.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_02: And so when we get into this heart triad stuff, you begin to touch that part.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_02: I don't care what triad you're in, but that emotional piece, that heart longing, that sense of, I feel ashamed of who I am and embarrassed about who I am.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_02: And if people knew the truth, I would be humiliated and to receive the father's response of, I already know the truth of who you are and I'm crazy about you.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_02: Like that, that is the thing we're all after.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that is so good.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_01: I I know working with two, threes, and fours, this is that is the pervasive need in all things, right?
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_01: Whether it's in relational satisfaction in their work, um, just so many elements there, Jesse.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_01: It just that is so beautiful.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for sharing that.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's a I know we've really detoured from our original plan, but you know, that's how we do these things.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so good.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: I I'm kind of interested maybe even in more of your story of figuring out your dominant type because I you're not alone in this mistyping of person after person, client after client, guest after guest, lots of mistype happening out there.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: That's why it's a great spiritual direction tool because it's this ongoing journey.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you can't get labeled and your first guess might be the wrong guess.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: But how has even maybe the revelation of understanding more of your wiring and your desires played into your marriage, maybe as a dad, some of those elements at play?
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, um, for sure.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_02: I I think that um, you know, one of the things I talk about in the book in the opening chapter is this uh this quote from Richard Rohr where he talks about um that uh the Bible essentially tells us that the way that we relate to God inevitably is the way that we relate to others and the way that we relate to others and that is how we relate to God.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_02: And he says he describes the Bible as a whole book of relationships.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_02: And uh, you know, my uh the the guy that counseled me, Rich Plastic, he used to summarize it as the way we relate is the way we relate.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_02: So so, in understanding that, I have to look at my life and go, if I'm wired with these propensities, these propensities to produce and get things done and to stay active all the time, um, and to project an image.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_02: This has to have some level of impact on my wife, on my kids.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_02: And for certain, there are moments in which on the negative, they can feel pressure to uh look a certain way or to edit themselves in public or um to uh to get things done so that dad will be proud or to you know act a certain way so that my husband will think I'm great.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_02: They can feel an unspoken pressure because they they want my approval and they know what I value, even if I'm not saying it.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_02: And that's that's a real dangerous place to be in.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_02: Now, on the other side, I also think that you know I I can bring vision and hope and uh encouragement and inspiration.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, we do a lot of things as a family.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_02: And um, so there's gifts as well, but I have to recognize um I do have a propensity towards let's get things done.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_02: And I really have to work hard to I'm just gonna sit and I'm just gonna be and I'm just gonna rest.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and for all the ways too, I mean, I should say, like, you know, it was it bad that I misidentified as a four for so long.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_02: And considering, I mean, I got a freaking book contract before I realized, you know, my threeness.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I think there's a there's obviously, um, I want to be able to be realistic about who I am, but I think that spending all those years investing in my emotional side really did help me.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, my counselor last year said, of all the guys I work with, you're the most emotionally aware man of among my clients.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_02: And I, and I'm thankful for that.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_02: And I do think in part, that's because I invested a lot into those, that forness aspect of who I am.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I'm also an emotional hot mess at times, and that's a whole other issue.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um so uh, so yeah, so you know, I mean, there's no way around it.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_02: Our self-deception doesn't hurt only as it hurts the people around us, but our gifts don't only bless us, they also bless the people around us.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: A hundred percent.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_01: You have a little bit, you know, kind of that middle-age kid range.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm curious, are you guys talking about Enneagram around the dinner table?
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_01: What does it look like to have that conversation with your kids?
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it is funny.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_02: My my daughter the other day made a great joke.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know what she said something, and it was very precise in particular, and she just goes, that's my one.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_02: And uh, and it was just this really funny moment where I realized, like, oh yeah, they're they're definitely listening on this.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_02: But at the same time, yes, my my daughter goes to this little this little school, a little private school, and casually the other day she just goes, Yeah, they told us that we're studying the Enneagram next year.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, Did you think to mention that your dad wrote a book?
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_02: And she's like, No.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_02: So it's just they it's like no big deal to them.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um but we can uh we can talk about it.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, especially my my daughter has a special interest in in these sorts of things.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_02: She she's a writer and she loves sort of psychological profiles and yeah.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_02: So so we talk Enneagram as a family and it does help us.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_01: I I've really enjoyed as my kids have gotten older and they, you know, they can't help but pick up, like you said, they're they're listening, they they are hearing our conversations or amusings.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, but it it is, it's been a great tool as they've gotten older to even navigate these teen years to understand, right?
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, for you, I don't have a one, but I would imagine a one uh being hard on themselves, that inner critic spilling out sideways, or even being able to catch that, right?
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: That criticism has to be so helpful as a parent, insightful to know how to guide them through, right?
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_01: Because we're not trying to change them, we're helping them become aware, yes, hear truth instead of the lies.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_02: Totally.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_02: So, like, so you know, and in our family, one of our rhythms is that most nights of the week we pray together as a family before we all go to bed.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_02: And um one of the recurring themes of, you know, I've got a child who's a one, and and one of the recurring themes in her prayers is um, God help me to be more gracious to myself and help me to believe your grace.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_02: That's a part of her prayer life.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I've got another kid who's a seven, and a lot of his prayer life is help me to stop avoiding, help me to stop avoiding, because he knows he's so there's so they get a leg up, and at the same time, we're also trying to say, listen, you're young and you've got a lot of fluid aspects in the years to come.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_02: So this is not fixed, you know.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so there's there's choices here.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's really good because there may be awareness that comes about, just I mean, point in case, right?
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_01: We're we're well into our adulthood and navigating this.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_01: I I think I was um like 39 and I'd already been certified and coaching people when suddenly it was like, ah, maybe I'm not a three after all.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_01: And there, you know, the rest of it unravel.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_01: But um, but yeah.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_02: But I think it's that, but I think it's that it comes down to the desire, right?
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, so much about the Enneagram is, you know, that sets it apart from other personality profiles, is it's not about what you do, but why you do it.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that for me, even sort of the last couple of years in the course of writing the book, the journey has been am I truly, truly at my core?
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_02: Am I driven by a need to be authentic or am I driven more by a desire to be valuable?
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_02: And I just had to come to terms with the fact I will choose valuable every single time.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I really value authenticity.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but if if push came to shove, I'm I'm gonna, I'm gonna choose value.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_02: And that's I think that that's the important distinction.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_02: And probably similar for you.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_02: If the distinction is, are you gonna choose to be valuable or choose to be happy, you're gonna choose I'm going after happy.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_01: I think what's even interesting is what stood out to you in your counselor's feedback is that he used the term most emotionally aware.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_01: And that in itself, ding, ding, ding, prize for the three.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: Most right.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_02: I'm the best at being uh emotional.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_02: Awesome.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_02: I'll take it.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_02: I'll check that in my head.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: I had someone talk about their mistyping experience.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_01: And when they realized they were trying to be the very best of that type, they thought, oh, maybe, maybe I mixed up here.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_01: And it led them to the revelation of leading as a three.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_01: Now, I want to come back to the book here near the end, but because of time, I want to be able to just hear some of these answers to our rapid fire questions and you know, um, make them as fast as you want to.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_01: I uh I always am breaking the rules on this sort of thing.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_01: But this month, as we're focusing again on whole-hearted relationships, we're gonna talk about connection with God, marriage, kids, community.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_01: For you, what feels like the easiest relationship right now?
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_02: Easiest relationship would would probably be with um uh I got just a couple of buddies that uh that I've been doing life with for a long time.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_02: And um, we have just seen the good and the ugly in each other.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_02: And there's a real sense when we're together, we can just be as we are, that that there's not a lot of performance and it's just all all the masks are off, all the, you know, yeah, all the uh costumes are off.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_02: We're just together.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that is so good.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_01: So important for a three.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_01: On the flip side, what do you think needs more growth this year?
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_01: Again, those are God, uh connection with God in your marriage, the kids, community is maybe how you would summarize as uh you have an intimate community.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_01: Community could also be large on a large scale, like in a church or something to that effect.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think that uh in this coming year, um, I mean, gosh, there's no shortage of areas I'd love to invest in.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_02: You know, my kids are getting older, so I definitely want to really treasure the time that I have with them.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I can I can now count down uh how much longer we have while they'll be in the home.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, definitely continue to invest in my marriage.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and um yeah, so that I want to love my wife better in the coming year.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_02: And uh and then also, you know, as I said, I can get very busy at times.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_02: So sometimes friendships, you know, I don't prioritize them as much as I should.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_02: And so I'm hoping to spend more time with my friends this year as well.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe a little bit more rhythms of rest to take in the delight of the father and delighting in others.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_01: So I like that.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_01: That's good.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so now if you're getting to hang out with friends, what's your favorite thing to connect over or your place to meet up?
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_01: And this could be the buddy, those buddies that you mentioned earlier, or just like, what does it look like to explore more time with friends?
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, okay, so um, so there's this book, uh, The Friendship Factor, uh, by Alan Guinness, I think is his name.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_02: Uh or I can't remember.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_02: Anyway, friendship factor.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_02: He says there's two ingredients in friendship.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it is uh shared experience and uh mutual intimacy and vulnerability.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_02: And I think I actually do a pretty great job on vulnerability.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so this year I'm really trying to invest more into shared experiences.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um I'm not like a go-to-the-dance club, big crowd kind of person.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_02: So uh so I would love to have uh some more like little retreats with buddies, getaway, uh yeah, small road trip kind of things.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_01: I was gonna throw out there axe throwing, maybe chicken and pickle.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_02: Too big.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um yeah, no, I I would totally do the axe throwing thing.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_02: Uh yeah, as long as it's not like, you know, a really loud bar.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_02: I just don't really like crowds very much.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, not your jam.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_02: I'm getting old.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know what's going on.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_01: That's so funny.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_01: I was trying to choose a restaurant for my birthday, and we had a lot of people uh weighing in on the opinion.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_01: And that was the thing.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, oh my gosh, we're old now because the feedback I was getting from the place I wanted was it was too loud.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, come on, people, it's fun.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_02: They all they all just want to go play shuffleboard at the old folks' home.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_02: That's all they really want to do.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_01: I love it.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_01: Now, just as we finish up this conversation, I know there's so much more to say.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_01: Again, your book is so fabulously written.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, sincerely, as I know there are a lot of Enneagram books on the market.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel like something to for our friends who are listening to weigh in as you're reading all the books, um, perhaps, or you're thinking about what ones to invest in.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I would say consider the author, consider their background.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_01: Do they love Jesus first and foremost?
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_01: Do they have some street cred um in this?
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_01: Have they have they had some skin time with Enneagram to massage it for themselves, but also utilize it with others?
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_01: Because this is a very, very important aspect.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because we could recurgitate non-proprietary information, um, but has it been worn, right?
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like, does it have some life on it?
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then, you know, is it, is it in a way that where is it read like a textbook, or does it add to your relationships?
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I think your book checks all of those boxes in my mind.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_01: And so, um, so anyway, I'm really excited for people to get their hands on it.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_01: What would you say in just leaving of what you maybe hope um people will gather, or maybe an aspect about the book that you're like, I love the uniqueness of this and what it has to offer and add to the conversation.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, there are there are so many good Enneagram books out there.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_02: So there's, you know, obviously the question of like, do I really need yet another Enneagram book?
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_02: When I wrote this book, I set out to write the Enneagram book for Christians and churches to be able to utilize, in which we could ensure they're going to encounter the gospel uh in the course of reading that book.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_02: So if you read this, there's a few distinct things that you're going to encounter.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_02: Number one, there's going to be an emphasis on your life story.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_02: A lot of Enneagram work coming out now focuses on sort of the fruit of the tree, but not the roots.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_02: And this is going to explore your childhood and adolescence.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, number two, um, huge emphasis on Jesus.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and this book explores, you know, I mean, the big top of this conversation, we were talking about when we have a vulnerability, a hangover.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_02: And what we're really looking for is somebody to empathize with us.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_02: And that's one of the key things in this book is how does Jesus earn the trust of each type?
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_02: He empathizes with them.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_02: So he's gonna identify with your wound, and we're gonna go through that.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_02: Then he's gonna affirm you.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_02: Here's the parts and ways that God's showing up.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_02: He's gonna confront you as well.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um, here are the ways in which you are falling short and you you could you could live a more holistic life.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_02: And then finally, uh, going to give you good news.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and hopefully that leads to new uh transformed relationships.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_02: And then finally, just a third thing is that is that gospel piece.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_02: Tim Keller says um the gospel is not good advice, it's good news.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_02: And so a lot of traditional Enneagram teaching is based on the idea of you have these besetting sins.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_02: If you would just do these virtues, then you get to live a new life.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_02: That's actually not Christian faith.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_02: Christian faith is I have these besetting sins that I am enslaved to.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_02: Jesus comes and gives me this good news that he has set me free through himself.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_02: And then now out of that good news, I can respond as a disciple.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_02: And so the book follows that same process.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so yeah, and then also if you're a visual person, there's like over a hundred illustrations in the book as well.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_01: I loved that touch.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, I meant to mention it earlier because I thought that just added a fun dynamic seven.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry, I use that word a lot fun, but I thought it just it was a new flavor, a new way to interpret even how um yeah, how we can viscerally uh experience or even can aesthetically experience maybe what it is that we're receiving in information.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_01: So I love it.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_01: Fabulous job, Jesse.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_01: I I really do hope um our friends dive into this, get this resource, add it, not just to your bookshelf, but to the list of books you read this year.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I really do think it's gonna enhance your uh your relationship with the Lord, with yourself and with others.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_01: And that is what we're here on earth to do.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_02: Wonderful.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_02: I appreciate it.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_02: And and I do, if if you're looking uh for a book that's gonna help you encounter God and you know improve your relationships with other people and yourself, I really hope this book can do that for you.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_01: I believe it will.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_01: Jesse, thank you so much for your time for coming on here.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so excited for our friends to get to know you better.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks, Amy.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, friend, you need to run.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_01: Don't just walk over with your fingers to Amazon to get Jesse's book.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_01: Run over there right now, put it in your cart, and check out.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_01: I really think this book is a unique and fantastic read when it comes to the Enneagram.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, I put the link to that book in the show notes.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_01: Now, you want to know it, but Jesse was actually feeling under the weather the day we recorded.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_01: So not only was he really generous with his limited time that day, but also with his limited energy as he was recovering.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_01: I really am grateful for his generosity of wisdom and a conversation that normalizes the mistyping mishap.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_01: It is totally okay if it happens.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_01: I am not exaggerating when I say at least 80% of my clients have been mistyped at one time or another.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_01: It's truly nothing to be ashamed of, and it's very common.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_01: So remember, the Enneagram typology is a journey.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's not one and done, got my number, now I'm gonna do my thing.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_01: Constantly be exploring and learning about the ways the Lord made you.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_01: Next week I'm gonna get to talk to a friend of the podcast, Krista Harden.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my lands.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_01: You all know I love her.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_01: She is a fellow seven.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_01: We share so much in common.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_01: We're the same age, we have kids the same age, we're going through a lot of similar chapters of life together.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_01: And we've also experienced some similar losses and pain.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_01: So, Anne, of course, with her background and therapy, she is a wonderful listener.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_01: And you know what a gift that is to have in a friend.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_01: But all of that to say, Kristen and I are taking our conversation to the mic once again, but we're doing a fun twist in light of the Valentine holiday.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_01: Now, last year I had several amazing conversations for marriages about ones that are hurting and how to grow and strengthen your marriage.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_01: Be sure to listen to those absolutely, but I just thought it would be fun to do something lighthearted.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_01: So it'll be another Enneagram in the movies episode.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_01: We're talking about two of my favorites that I love to watch this time of year.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_01: First one is Hitch, and the second one is My Big Fat Greek Wedding.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_01: Two classics, if you ask me.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_01: I can't wait for you to share with you.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_01: We laughed.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_01: It was so fun.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_01: And there was actually really profound insight that came out of our conversation.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_01: All right, friend, until next time, continue to pursue God's perspective, purpose, and plans for your simply wholehearted life.