Latest / The Vietnamese with Kenneth Nguyen / 521 - How Did A Former Army Officer Become The Bridge Between U.S. And Vietnamese Defense? - Tuan Le

Transcript

521 - How Did A Former Army Officer Become The Bridge Between U.S. And Vietnamese Defense? - Tuan Le · The Vietnamese with Kenneth Nguyen

0:00
[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome to the Vietnamese podcast today.
0:01
[SPEAKER_00]: I've Tom Lay on.
0:02
[SPEAKER_00]: I've been following Tom Lay for quite a while now.
0:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Tom has been highlighting military.
0:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Vietnamese American military folks throughout the history of the last perhaps 50 years, even more.
0:17
[SPEAKER_00]: There are some very interesting things about the people that Tom has highlighted.
0:24
[SPEAKER_00]: All of them have been, you know,
0:27
[SPEAKER_00]: high-ranking have done a lot for the Vietnamese American military community.
0:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Not all have I been on board with in terms of what they've done but for the most part Tom you've done a great job but there's a few things that we will be talking to you about today Tom.
0:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Your work
0:50
[SPEAKER_00]: In Vietnam and your identity, the feelings that you've had growing up, so welcome to the Vietnamese podcast.
0:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks, Ken.
0:59
[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for having me on the show.
1:00
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm excited to be here.
1:02
[SPEAKER_00]: So my, so my, and I've waited for a few months to sit and talk to, we could start at a lot of different places.
1:11
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think the first place would probably be a west point.
1:15
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, what made you decide to join the military academy?
1:21
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
1:22
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it wasn't something that was in the books at all.
1:28
[SPEAKER_01]: never actually intended on join the military to begin with at an early age.
1:34
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it was just a matter of circumstance and a matter of exposure.
1:39
[SPEAKER_01]: So I grew up in a single parent household first generation to go to high school, go to college.
1:50
[SPEAKER_01]: So there wasn't a lot of kind of navigation or mentorship in the way that I
1:57
[SPEAKER_01]: should proceed with my education.
1:59
[SPEAKER_01]: So I went to actually end up going to the University of Minnesota after high school.
2:06
[SPEAKER_01]: I did about a year there, and I got to kind of explore what that experience was like.
2:14
[SPEAKER_01]: Unfortunately, I didn't do so while there.
2:18
[SPEAKER_01]: And I kind of,
2:20
[SPEAKER_01]: learned about life and finances and struggled academically, and I actually ended up moving back from the University of Minnesota to St. Claude where my folks reside, and I ended up going to a community college.
2:37
[SPEAKER_00]: I did not know that.
2:39
[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't know you could be bound and that kind of failure and go to West Point.
2:43
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, crazy.
2:44
[SPEAKER_01]: It's true.
2:45
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, my,
2:47
[SPEAKER_01]: I essentially dropped out of University of Minnesota as a result of academics, once you're community college for about
2:59
[SPEAKER_01]: a semester and then at that time I was working on a hardware store and a buddy had just come back from a deployment and he had told me about his experience and he had told me about his his drive, his purpose and it was something that at that time in my life really aligned with something I was looking for which was
3:21
[SPEAKER_01]: you know, the ability to escape, which was to explore travel, to go out and see what experience there are, but also to be able to have a purpose to have a mission and to be focused and also to be around other people that were also very driven.
3:36
[SPEAKER_01]: And so he told me about the experience, there's something that interested me and actually, once the recruiting
3:49
[SPEAKER_01]: for for that time period.
3:52
[SPEAKER_01]: And so when I was going through basic training and I was going through AIT to learn my my trade and at West Point admissions officer actually came through and actually told our cohort about the service academy and there was something that had interested me because
4:11
[SPEAKER_01]: um, while I was still interested in the military, I was also still interested in receiving an education and I was also interested in potentially going to medical school to becoming a doctor.
4:20
[SPEAKER_01]: And I realized that less point can offer all those things.
4:24
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I weighed my options.
4:26
[SPEAKER_01]: I looked at ROTC, West Point, and then OCS, which is a three different ways to commission.
4:33
[SPEAKER_01]: I finished AIT.
4:34
[SPEAKER_01]: I went back to Minnesota because I was in the Minnesota National Garden.
4:41
[SPEAKER_01]: I went to a third college, St.
4:43
[SPEAKER_01]: Cloud State University to continue to improve my academics.
4:48
[SPEAKER_01]: And then from there, I applied for West Point and I received an appointment that following year and started from in the summer of 2012.
4:59
[SPEAKER_00]: The journeys that we take in life.
5:02
[SPEAKER_00]: fascinating because you know, I mean, there's a lot of us that probably think, you know, you have to get straight A's, you get that that congressman or that Senator to endorse, you know, the letter, you got to get like, you know, a lot of activities on your resume and then you apply at a high school and that is like an uphill battle.
5:24
[SPEAKER_00]: That's 100%.
5:26
[SPEAKER_00]: very, very, very difficult to do.
5:28
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, arguably, probably easier.
5:30
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, harder than, you know, these Ivy League schools.
5:33
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, but to turn your life around failing out of community colleges such a huge, you know, think to over, overcome.
5:43
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, going into West Point, I think my profile was pretty unconventional.
5:49
[SPEAKER_01]: Again, three different academic institutions, prior service soldier, I came in when I was about 21, were most of the other students were 18.
5:59
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I think falling forward many times really allowed me to be able to get the data points and the experience to lock in and understand what I need to do to succeed.
6:16
[SPEAKER_01]: So once I got in, like, oh, I had to do this focus on what is like finishing.
6:22
[SPEAKER_01]: And,
6:24
[SPEAKER_01]: The four years at West Point, everything was new.
6:28
[SPEAKER_01]: Again, someone who just didn't have any exposure to the military, just what West Point was expected.
6:35
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, my family, they didn't even know what West Point was until they came to my graduation.
6:41
[SPEAKER_01]: and that was the only time.
6:43
[SPEAKER_01]: So none of us knew what was expected and for me I was just like, hey I got in I guess I need to finish otherwise I have to go back to my life.
6:52
[SPEAKER_01]: So I need to I need to make this right and this is my last shot.
6:57
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah the four years flew by and I think really instilled a lot of the core values that I have today.
7:03
[SPEAKER_01]: it really reinforce the identity that I hope to develop achieve and really has opened up the doors in terms of mentorship and just just the focus that I needed within my career and I think that was the starting point of where everything began for me.
7:21
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, the moral of this story really is you can go so far down in terms of achievement, flunking out of community college because of academics and still pulled the nose of that plane right up and really take it to such high limits, you know, and I think that, um,
7:46
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to definitely use this story when I'm talking my children as they're.
7:52
[SPEAKER_00]: So growing up, because my brother and I were at the same journey, we did not have good models and guidance, you know, and there were no faults of my parents, they just didn't have it.
8:06
[SPEAKER_00]: They were focused on religious activity, what has become priests.
8:12
[SPEAKER_00]: So by the time we got recruited into the Marine Corps as enlisted soldiers and enlisted Marines,
8:20
[SPEAKER_00]: We, my brother is like a 2.3 GPA, you know, coming on high school, directionless, and he gets there, gets straight A's in community college, and then gets to USC and go to arts school, and then runs a whole company of visual effects in Vietnam for many, many years.
8:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Still does, became up, you know,
8:49
[SPEAKER_00]: Does have its massive advantages once you lock in, as you say.
8:54
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm just really blown away by your journey.
8:59
[SPEAKER_00]: It's totally unexpected.
9:02
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think one other thing to touch on is that like, I think for immigrant parents that come over, they want the best for their kids and to succeed.
9:12
[SPEAKER_01]: But I also think that there's like this assumption that if they just provide for them and put a roof over their head,
9:22
[SPEAKER_01]: that the kids, the assumption is that they will automatically succeed and that they will know what to do from an education standpoint.
9:29
[SPEAKER_01]: When in fact, like a lot of it is, a lot of kids they just need like that person to be there for them, right?
9:36
[SPEAKER_01]: Like the mentorship aspect is often neglected but often is very important for the kid to understand what direction they need to go.
9:45
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think a lot of us feel that because we have that pressure to succeed, but we don't always have the tools of the resources to be able to do it.
9:54
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, you know, that's something that I hope that a lot of viewers and listeners can resonate that are coming from similar households or backgrounds, it's the assumptions there, but I think we can do so much more to improve that.
10:12
[SPEAKER_00]: Now I'm beginning to understand why you post so much about these military folks, Vietnamese Americans, because we share the same
10:20
[SPEAKER_00]: viewpoints about why we highlight these people because really in highlighting these people that have made it so far in the military, we are in our own way inspiring ourselves, you and I, but we're just, you know, you're highlighting more military, I highlight the gamut, the whole gamut of Vietnamese people around the world.
10:43
[SPEAKER_00]: And I do that because I want to inspire myself.
10:46
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, I'm doing this really for myself because I look at the marvel at what the Vietnamese and it could be anything if you were born a Mexican, if you're born a, you know, a Salvadorian, or if you're a born Filipino, we'll probably end up, you know, we're just highlighting the things that are close to our identity happens to be Vietnamese, but I, you know, have love and
11:12
[SPEAKER_00]: It just happens to me that we're Vietnamese, but you know, you're focusing very much on the military folks and it inspires our journey to do better every day just watching these people.
11:24
[SPEAKER_01]: You hit the nail head, I mean, it's something that's very tangible.
11:29
[SPEAKER_01]: These people are all people that we can connect to because they resemble our parents.
11:35
[SPEAKER_01]: They resemble people within our community, our siblings.
11:39
[SPEAKER_01]: And so if I read about this story, like I can connect with this person because I can see myself in them.
11:49
[SPEAKER_01]: We all love a great underdog story.
11:51
[SPEAKER_01]: That's why we're rooting for them and we want them to win.
11:55
[SPEAKER_01]: And we see ourselves as underdogs as well.
11:58
[SPEAKER_01]: And so if they can do it, that should give us the motivation that we can do it too.
12:02
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's ultimately the goal is like,
12:06
[SPEAKER_01]: how do we continue to inspire the next generation, so that they have that?
12:11
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, again, it's a story, it's a journey, it's the lessons learned, but those things can transcend generations and do any type of platform.
12:22
[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, I think what both we're doing really aligns with that echo.
12:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
12:28
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if we, you and I went over the major points of interest that I have in your work and your life.
12:34
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just going to say it again just so I can reiterate with the audience that's listening.
12:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Your work with former and current military Vietnamese
12:44
[SPEAKER_00]: that we just talked about, highlighting their lives, your work at the Defense PwMIA County Agency is so important.
12:53
[SPEAKER_00]: And the intersection of identity politics, military, and activism, and highlighting all of these stories are also wonderful things.
13:03
[SPEAKER_00]: we come from the same, but very different, you know, I got out of the military in 96 and 96.
13:09
[SPEAKER_00]: My contract was supposed to end in 97, but it didn't take leave for, you know, a few, for a while.
13:14
[SPEAKER_00]: So I got out really, I got to get out early.
13:18
[SPEAKER_00]: So I did my four years, got out in 97.
13:19
[SPEAKER_00]: So,
13:21
[SPEAKER_00]: you are probably a few years younger than I am, and so I say this because our time away from the military gives us some breathing room and gives us some space.
13:37
[SPEAKER_00]: I can say things and be very public about certain things.
13:41
[SPEAKER_00]: But that's not what we're here.
13:43
[SPEAKER_00]: We're not here to debate like the differences in everything.
13:47
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm here to ask you to just to get some perspective about the current state.
13:56
[SPEAKER_00]: can't imagine that you agree a hundred percent on what the, because I've read your posts.
14:01
[SPEAKER_00]: There are guys that I don't agree with, there's, you know, things in the world of the military today that I can only imagine our leaders feeling like they had their arm twisted, whether that's FBI, CIA, DEA, up and down the military branches, how do you feel about
14:24
[SPEAKER_00]: seeing what's happening in the world of the ranks that we come from.
14:34
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, this is a very like difficult thing to navigate because of just the optics that are involved in the politics.
14:50
[SPEAKER_01]: And of course, if
14:51
[SPEAKER_01]: you're like an active serving member or someone that works for the government, like there are some things that some implications that people have to consider carefully when they speak within their position.
15:07
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I think like for people that are out, of course, like I think it's easier to be able to communicate more freely without
15:18
[SPEAKER_01]: Worrying will like the backlash or how it could affect your profession or your career or even your image, but I think for folks that are within, they have to tread more carefully.
15:28
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think for me how I'm looking at this is that, we have important, I and both of us, we have an important message that we're trying to share with our audience.
15:42
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think we are trying to be stewards to do it in a way that still gets to the end goal or the end audience without potentially tarnishing like the larger institution and I'm kind of like speaking broadly and kind of like in hypotheticals, but
16:08
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just a really precarious situation that requires a careful attention in how you do it, because I use like a military reference.
16:18
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, you can't even order from a commander.
16:22
[SPEAKER_01]: and you need to carry out that mission.
16:25
[SPEAKER_01]: And sometimes you or your soldiers may not always agree with it, but how do you communicate that message that order to them?
16:36
[SPEAKER_01]: So that it still resonates and so that they're still motivated to get the mission done.
16:41
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, we're gonna get the mission done, but we're gonna find a way that does it in a way that
16:47
[SPEAKER_01]: is ethical, moral, legal, and again, like sometimes there's things that are being done behind the scenes that we may not always be privy to, but within the position that we're in, we have
17:03
[SPEAKER_01]: to be able to do our best to be able to ensure that that gets communicating.
17:07
[SPEAKER_01]: So whenever I was even order, you know, I own it, but I have to be able to do it in a way that it's gonna take care of my soldiers at the same time and we're gonna get that done.
17:18
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think about that in the same way now, like on the outside, there's still a mission that needs to be done, it needs to be communicated effectively and professionally, but there's a way to do it.
17:34
[SPEAKER_00]: guilty of not giving full context to certain things.
17:39
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to lay into Hong Kong.
17:41
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to do it as most respectful to you as possible because I don't have respect for what what he said and did.
17:50
[SPEAKER_00]: So just to paint a background picture for my, you know, the audiences, you know, Hong Kong made a joke about, you know,
17:59
[SPEAKER_00]: wearing a hood from the KKK and it was on I can't remember which show he was on was a Tucker or one of these shows and he said, you know, give me the hood and you don't have to put the circles in the eyes just cut me a slit, you know, just to talk about his Asian eyes.
18:20
[SPEAKER_00]: I did a whole clip on that, um, on my Instagram and, you know, my, you know, um, socials and I just laid into it.
18:27
[SPEAKER_00]: I said, you know, that's, you know, that's, like, what kind of, what kind of joke, kind of sick, perverse joke is that?
18:35
[SPEAKER_00]: And, you know,
18:36
[SPEAKER_00]: That's my point of view, and I'm allowed to have it, but what I did not think is how many Vietnamese people, Vietnamese American people think that that's okay, that that joke was okay, and these are not like Vietnamese people like coming straight from Vietnam and has been here for like 10, 15 years.
18:54
[SPEAKER_00]: These are like people were probably born here like us who've been here forever, and like they come from the conservative side,
19:06
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, it's just a joke, like get over it.
19:11
[SPEAKER_00]: I found that to me so I did not sit well with me with the history of the kick at K. How could we, I mean, I'm a big proponent of comedy, like say what you want to say, right?
19:23
[SPEAKER_00]: We should all, it's America, we should, we should be able to say and utilize our free speech.
19:30
[SPEAKER_00]: But coming from home out at this time, it still bothers me to know in.
19:36
[SPEAKER_00]: And I just wanted to hear, because you've highlighted him.
19:39
[SPEAKER_00]: And you know, when he was running for Senator out of Virginia, I was, you know, I asked him to come on the podcast, and we were so close to it, I talked to his people.
19:49
[SPEAKER_00]: And I don't know what I would have said, had he come on the podcast?
19:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Because you know, once you come on the podcast, it was like, all right, we're friends, we're friends.
19:57
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
19:58
[SPEAKER_00]: But now it's just, it was so, so hard broken.
20:03
[SPEAKER_00]: I was so hard broken to see that.
20:06
[SPEAKER_01]: I feel you on that.
20:07
[SPEAKER_01]: I, you know, I feel the same way, Kenneth.
20:09
[SPEAKER_01]: I think making a joke in this plugly divisive environment right now at the expense of your own people.
20:19
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's just bad
20:25
[SPEAKER_01]: He has our responsibility to be a good steward of communicating on the communities behalf, but you know, I understand objectively like for him to be able to do what he needs
20:50
[SPEAKER_01]: There are things that he's doing and that isn't me that I agree with it.
20:54
[SPEAKER_01]: Objectively, I understand like that's the path that he has accepted and that he's willing to do and he has to accept the consequences of his behaviors.
21:07
[SPEAKER_01]: But that's not why I highlighted him.
21:09
[SPEAKER_01]: I highlighted him because I think about again, just like the representation.
21:17
[SPEAKER_01]: of being able to be a Vietnamese American and be the acting secretary of the Navy is something that has been changed before.
21:27
[SPEAKER_01]: It's incundable for the aggressive.
21:30
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's something that's still worth highlighting and sharing.
21:33
[SPEAKER_01]: And I spoke to another friend about this, but I just want to highlight Vietnamese excellence without the politics.
21:42
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, let's talk about people's achievements.
21:46
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's talk about what they are capable of.
21:48
[SPEAKER_01]: And of course, everyone has their short comments.
21:50
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's something that we all carry.
21:56
[SPEAKER_01]: But it doesn't mean that like, I don't give him a pass on what he did, that's what I'm all saying to.
22:03
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, even though I shared it, even though I'm highlighting his profile, it doesn't mean that I agree with all of his politics either.
22:11
[SPEAKER_01]: I hope that within the audience that we do have that it can kind of continue to inspire people to elevate and even use his experience as a lesson.
22:21
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's a great way to put it.
22:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, he didn't need to do that.
22:26
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, he's gotten so far.
22:28
[SPEAKER_00]: I got, I remember in the halls and in the offices of, you know, these headquarters that you walked through, the S1s, the S2s, the S3s, the different,
22:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Officers, you always see pictures of, you know, associate being a Marine, you see, you know, our granddaddy, we're, you know, is the Secretary of the Navy, that's our grandfather in the Marines, right?
22:51
[SPEAKER_00]: That's who we answer to.
22:53
[SPEAKER_00]: It's the common dot of the Marine Corps, and then the Secretary of the Navy is our common-downs boss.
23:00
[SPEAKER_00]: And then there's the President.
23:01
[SPEAKER_00]: And now we have this Vietnamese American guy.
23:07
[SPEAKER_00]: is you know that's like a god to an enlisted man like me that was coming up it's incredible what an incredible achievement right regardless of what dumb so he didn't have to do that that's all I'm saying you just didn't have to do that the boy on pocket yeah
23:23
[SPEAKER_00]: you didn't have to do it.
23:25
[SPEAKER_00]: And I talked to other military officers that are Vietnamese who are not retired and, you know, the old guys are like, man, that's a bad look.
23:33
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a missed opportunity.
23:35
[SPEAKER_01]: That's how I see it.
23:36
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, like you have this platform now and you have the ability to
23:42
[SPEAKER_01]: shift perceptions and bias, but even on that podcast, like I'm sure there's a total completely different audience that is watching that and he has that opportunity to shift their perception of the Vietnamese people.
23:55
[SPEAKER_01]: And so it could have been, again, just a missed opportunity.
23:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's unfortunate, but I'm glad we got to talk to it, talk about him and, you know,
24:06
[SPEAKER_00]: I hope that we all learn from that and yeah.
24:10
[SPEAKER_00]: So you are part of this defense POW, my accounting agency, and I think that's a really big deal.
24:18
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'll tell you why I think it's something that's really important to talk about, not just because it's who you are and what you've done.
24:24
[SPEAKER_00]: But this idea of, you know, I think a lot of people in the Vietnamese communities
24:35
[SPEAKER_00]: The government's
24:38
[SPEAKER_00]: Vietnam and the US, a strategic and two bodies of governments having to work with each other and really find ways to bring soldiers, POWs and my A's back to the US is a big thing.
24:57
[SPEAKER_00]: But I think one thing that is not talked about too often is really how closely the government's
25:07
[SPEAKER_00]: And I wanted to ask you about that, you know, you being on the inside of it.
25:11
[SPEAKER_00]: It seems like the work that you and your Vietnamese counterparts is such a harmonic dance.
25:26
[SPEAKER_00]: And it seems to kind of like been working out.
25:32
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, from what I'm seeing on the outside,
25:34
[SPEAKER_00]: With the roller sleeves up, with the fine, these bodies, we have to find these stories and bring them back to their families.
25:41
[SPEAKER_00]: Can you tell me a little bit about the cooperation on the other side?
25:46
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so the last year and a half, I've been in Hanoi Vietnam at the detachment, that's there.
25:55
[SPEAKER_01]: And we have detachments all over the world and then the headquarters is based in Hawaii and in DC.
26:02
[SPEAKER_01]: So the detachment is essentially forward deployed.
26:06
[SPEAKER_01]: And what we do is we do a mission control.
26:10
[SPEAKER_01]: which means we support all of the deployed service members and civilians that come from Hawaii and the rest of the world to locate and search for the remains of fallen U.S. soldiers from previous conflict in this case Vietnam.
26:27
[SPEAKER_01]: And the work that we've been doing over there, it's so fascinating, even to this day, like I still like,
26:36
[SPEAKER_01]: It's crazy to explain to people the work that we do and also learning about the history, but we've been in Vietnam for over 50 years, even before the war ended, looking for, again,
26:59
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, this this priority to no soldier left behind that has always been like a paramount thing and I think to see two countries as adversaries in the past and now coming together as allies that is now part of a comprehensive strategic partnership over 50 years is something that
27:28
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like a lesson in itself, right?
27:30
[SPEAKER_01]: Like a lot of countries that are at battle with one another.
27:35
[SPEAKER_01]: And the United States in Vietnam kind of demonstrating that it is possible to find, you know, like this friendship, this alliance, this partnership, but then also to do something that is completely humanitarian with really like, there's no like,
27:57
[SPEAKER_01]: Financial gain for the United States to do something like this, right?
28:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Like there's very few countries actually in the world and actually go out and look for their fallen soldiers from like let alone like 10, 15 years is like 50.
28:11
[SPEAKER_01]: We're still looking for soldiers from World War II.
28:13
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's an incredible thing.
28:15
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's an incredibly difficult thing to do.
28:18
[SPEAKER_01]: So I want to say that the work
28:23
[SPEAKER_01]: The humanitarian work that we do out in Vietnam is the cornerstone of the partnership that we have today.
28:29
[SPEAKER_01]: So the office that our Defense Field WMI accounting agency office in Vietnam was created in 1991, four years before the normalization of relations between both countries.
28:44
[SPEAKER_01]: Which means the office was there before the embassy was even there.
28:49
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
28:49
[SPEAKER_01]: There's no ambassador there, the work that was that they were doing in terms of excavations.
28:54
[SPEAKER_01]: It was just like either unilateral or bilateral between the two countries.
28:59
[SPEAKER_01]: And so having that as the foundation to be able to begin like negotiations diplomacy started there.
29:07
[SPEAKER_01]: It started right there and it's and that continues to be a cornerstone of negotiation between two countries to further different priorities.
29:19
[SPEAKER_01]: the Asian orange, like them kind of rehabilitating those different areas, them looking for their own martyrs, and all the other work that we're doing as that's partners.
29:31
[SPEAKER_01]: So I look at that as like if there's no DPA, it's hard to say like looking back from now, but like what would our relationship be without that?
29:44
[SPEAKER_00]: So DPA has been there, what year was DPA's office first or whatever that you want to look like?
29:51
[SPEAKER_00]: What year?
29:53
[SPEAKER_01]: 1991, but they started back in 1974.
29:58
[SPEAKER_00]: okay so yeah you you have an officer there's an officer in 1974 so you like we think about like 1996 as like Clinton and the the the John's right John McCain and yeah they all go in and I was thinking of myself okay then in 1986 we drop an office in there right no no no no no no
30:22
[SPEAKER_00]: It starts much earlier, and records were kept much earlier.
30:29
[SPEAKER_00]: So by the time Bill Clinton is going in there to really sit down and negotiate, we got numbers, and we have data.
30:37
[SPEAKER_00]: And allies.
30:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
30:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
30:40
[SPEAKER_01]: Like allies in terms of like after the war, like there had to been some point where there's some type of interaction.
30:50
[SPEAKER_01]: you building trust.
30:52
[SPEAKER_01]: You building like allies in terms of people that you can communicate to and like that all had to have been the groundwork before the MC was even able to like, you know, build and the ambassador like stepping in.
31:08
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think that the groundwork there is really important to highlight.
31:13
[SPEAKER_00]: How often and how difficult, I mean, I know it's very difficult, but how often do you actually have new details about service members that we find?
31:28
[SPEAKER_01]: New details, I think, is probably less common.
31:34
[SPEAKER_01]: But in terms of us finding possible OCS material, which is anything that is like DNA or genetically linked to the individual, it's still happening.
31:47
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, and we just have access is what bones, bone, yeah, bone material.
31:52
[SPEAKER_01]: But we can also find like teeth, we can find identification media, such as like dog tags, wallets,
32:04
[SPEAKER_01]: which is what we've done, like, my time there across, you know, four or five JFA's joint field activities.
32:11
[SPEAKER_01]: In each one, we usually, we have found possible Ossias material or some type of identification media.
32:18
[SPEAKER_01]: And at this point in time where we're at, it's the hardest cases left.
32:22
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, everything that was easy to find was a melee after the war, 50 years later, what remains is like, the cases that are in the most isolated parts of Vietnam either in the jungle, in the mountain, or even in the ocean.
32:38
[SPEAKER_01]: And the exciting part about the job is that like, we travel to all parts of Vietnam in the elements.
32:47
[SPEAKER_01]: So,
32:49
[SPEAKER_01]: You can see a lot of different aspects and you really can engage with the local people at that part of Vietnam to be able to further like trying to get where these individuals are.
33:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Are you still an active duty?
33:04
[SPEAKER_01]: No, I got out of active duty in 2021.
33:09
[SPEAKER_01]: So for the last five years, I've been a civilian.
33:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you know how to do it?
33:14
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, do you?
33:18
[SPEAKER_00]: What is the perception that you have since you've been on the ground in Vietnam and how is that sort of informed your own identity now that you're dealing with all these people from inside of Vietnam?
33:37
[SPEAKER_01]: Great question, Ken.
33:40
[SPEAKER_01]: I've told you that my life is all about like falling forward and figuring it out.
33:47
[SPEAKER_01]: and never would I have imagined myself being in a position like this in this agency doing what I do.
33:57
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm actually always had a dream weirdly to go back to it, not go back, I should go to Vietnam because I've actually never did.
34:07
[SPEAKER_01]: I was born in the States.
34:10
[SPEAKER_01]: But go to Vietnam and to live and work there for some time to better understand my roots and my heritage and this is again after I developed a deeper appreciation for that and so the opportunity came up and I applied for a language specialist role
34:32
[SPEAKER_01]: which is like becoming like the mouthpiece and the interface or actually say the bridge between two countries.
34:43
[SPEAKER_01]: So I applied for this role and again like growing up in the United States, I didn't even speak Vietnamese.
34:52
[SPEAKER_01]: not even like, I mean, it's just probably to my mom, but outside of that, it was like full English, especially being in the Midwest.
34:59
[SPEAKER_01]: I did not have a lot of exposure.
35:01
[SPEAKER_01]: So I ended up like hiring a tutor to learn Vietnamese at a like business proficiency level, and it wasn't even like Southern dialect.
35:14
[SPEAKER_01]: It was like Northern dialect.
35:16
[SPEAKER_01]: So, completely outside of my comfort zone, did what I need to do to prepare for the requirements of the position.
35:23
[SPEAKER_01]: And then again, to receive the acceptance of the position and then to move my family over to Vietnam.
35:35
[SPEAKER_01]: At the time, my wife and I, we just quit our jobs, we sold our house, we had a six month infant and we just moved.
35:45
[SPEAKER_01]: And to go to a place that was actually very foreign, but familiar at the same time, was a ride of a lifetime.
35:56
[SPEAKER_01]: I felt like, but last year and a half, if it felt so long because of just how much we've done, but I felt like I was something, it was just such a unique opportunity, like given my experience as being a Vietnamese American,
36:15
[SPEAKER_01]: veteran and officer in the United States Army and then now being able to go to Vietnam become a bridge for the United States and Vietnam to look for U.S. service members that passed away during the Vietnam War and they were the very reason why my folks were even in America to begin with.
36:36
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a full circle moment and I just felt incredibly honored and proud to do the work and to be that individual, to be the bridge between two countries, two worlds, professionally and personally, I think it was just awesome.
36:55
[SPEAKER_00]: When did you get back here?
36:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, last three weeks ago, from Vietnam, from Vietnam.
37:03
[SPEAKER_00]: And it was a total amount of time that you spent in Vietnam.
37:07
[SPEAKER_00]: But a year and a half, that's a long time, that's a long time.
37:12
[SPEAKER_00]: And in terms of language proficiency, did you obviously get a lot better to the point where you're really being able to convey your inner most thoughts and be able to
37:28
[SPEAKER_01]: I think enough, like, I would say, like, I'm not going to try to share your code in.
37:31
[SPEAKER_01]: I think I'm pretty good conversationaly.
37:34
[SPEAKER_01]: I think I picked up on a lot of like technical terms that are specific to the work that we do.
37:42
[SPEAKER_01]: But I'd say I'm nowhere near like academic fluency.
37:48
[SPEAKER_01]: But it being there within the environment,
37:52
[SPEAKER_01]: uh, definitely allowed me to, um, just go deeper and then understand more of the, like, the local semantics and jargon that they use.
38:03
[SPEAKER_00]: How much more do we have there in that, in that, in that um, in that department?
38:10
[SPEAKER_01]: We have 1,566 individuals that we're still looking for.
38:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, but let me stop you real quick, 1,566.
38:24
[SPEAKER_00]: Do we ever close that out and say, you know what?
38:26
[SPEAKER_00]: Out of the 1,500 cases.
38:32
[SPEAKER_00]: We're probably never gonna see 1,400 of these.
38:36
[SPEAKER_00]: These 1,166, maybe we have leads to it.
38:39
[SPEAKER_00]: But the other 1,400, like that's done.
38:42
[SPEAKER_00]: Is there ever that kind of closure or do we just keep digging and you know, pardon the pun, but keep digging for those 1,600,600 names.
38:56
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, I think at some point, after so much time has the labs, there's just no more work to do.
39:03
[SPEAKER_01]: But I think from a scientific standpoint, the work that we do is very, it's, I mean, it's archeology and it's forensics.
39:14
[SPEAKER_01]: And so what they do when they go to these sites is they literally turn over every single rock and stone.
39:22
[SPEAKER_01]: And they will carve out every single unit, one meter by one meter, like you see in like Jurassic Park.
39:29
[SPEAKER_01]: And they will excavate that entire area.
39:32
[SPEAKER_01]: to a point where from an archaeological standpoint they're like, there's literally nothing here.
39:37
[SPEAKER_01]: And they'll do that in the ocean as well.
39:38
[SPEAKER_01]: You'll do grid by grid, by grid, going down to 100 feet.
39:45
[SPEAKER_01]: And once you've done that, then yes, if you don't find anything, then you can say we've done everything that we could have done.
39:54
[SPEAKER_01]: And that we can't recover them.
40:01
[SPEAKER_00]: happen more like we can't go further.
40:04
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't have that number off the top of my head.
40:08
[SPEAKER_01]: But I do understand that as long as we still continue to find individuals that we continue the mission.
40:18
[SPEAKER_01]: And right now, the window that we're experiencing is we're at a point where the witness population, they're like aging, and their memory is just not good anymore, like it used to be, or they're passing away.
40:38
[SPEAKER_01]: Part of it is trying to do as many interviews as much as possible and trying to document and archive as much as possible.
40:46
[SPEAKER_01]: The other aspect is the landscape is changing.
40:51
[SPEAKER_01]: So there's development.
40:54
[SPEAKER_01]: The country is growing at a rapid pace.
40:56
[SPEAKER_01]: You're starting to see more infrastructure being built over these sites that are preventing people, preventing our teams from being able to get into there.
41:05
[SPEAKER_01]: A dam could be created over it, and then you can't do anything.
41:09
[SPEAKER_01]: And then the last part is just like the soil erosion.
41:12
[SPEAKER_01]: and turn over.
41:14
[SPEAKER_01]: There's just so much acidity within the soil that it degrades the bone and the osteosmaterial.
41:19
[SPEAKER_01]: So we're really finding it against time and trying to use the current technology that we have today and just trying to use our our manpower to be able to find what we can.
41:34
[SPEAKER_00]: What's next for you?
41:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Now that you're back in the US,
41:39
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
41:39
[SPEAKER_01]: So I transferred to the headquarters office in Hawaii as a research analyst and a lot more of my work is going to be into like diving into the store goals and to be able to
42:03
[SPEAKER_01]: create the case we try to find as many leaders as possible and then that that prompts the teams that actually go out there and investigate and then excavate.
42:14
[SPEAKER_01]: So the crazy thing is like the crossover is it's like a lot of the work that I'm kind of doing on the side which is just like naturally just researching these individuals and I have a natural interest in this and so it's just
42:32
[SPEAKER_00]: So you're right now calling from Houston, but you are going to be stationed in Hawaii.
42:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
42:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
42:41
[SPEAKER_00]: And like, can you obey?
42:42
[SPEAKER_00]: Is that like, where are you at?
42:45
[SPEAKER_01]: Uh, so we'll be at a joint base Pearl Harbor, Har, uh, Hickham.
42:50
[SPEAKER_01]: So we'll be really good.
42:51
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not that hard on the other.
42:53
[SPEAKER_00]: And you're going from one duty station to the next duty set.
42:57
[SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't stop.
42:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Just amazing duty stations, man.
43:01
[SPEAKER_00]: That's crazy.
43:02
[SPEAKER_00]: And how long are you going to be in a Hawaii for?
43:05
[SPEAKER_01]: So for Hawaii, it doesn't have a backstop.
43:08
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's just, I guess until the next chapter begins, it's fantastic.
43:15
[SPEAKER_00]: And you'll be,
43:17
[SPEAKER_00]: cranking out the content that you've been doing with the Vietnamese, yeah, you ever think of starting a podcast?
43:27
[SPEAKER_01]: It's funny you mentioned that this is actually the first time I've been in the hot seat on the receiving end.
43:33
[SPEAKER_01]: So I actually do have a podcast.
43:35
[SPEAKER_01]: I started a podcast called
43:43
[SPEAKER_01]: And it was a time where there wasn't like a ton of podcasting that was happening.
43:48
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was just inspired by listening to all my classmates' stories.
43:56
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's what created that formulated like longer or less is the longer line, like lessons learned from their time in the military.
44:05
[SPEAKER_01]: And again, I think,
44:09
[SPEAKER_01]: I have this fascination behind people and people's stories and how they got to where they're at.
44:17
[SPEAKER_01]: And again, what you said is like, selfishly, I need this hope and this inspiration to push myself to be able to get to that point and I do it by listening to them.
44:31
[SPEAKER_01]: And similarly, like,
44:32
[SPEAKER_01]: They also have the opportunity to reflect on their own experience and hopefully they can save the heartache for anyone else that is trying to do the same thing by sharing their source.
44:42
[SPEAKER_00]: So I did see longer lessons on your, on your feed.
44:49
[SPEAKER_00]: The one time that, I mean, I didn't probably didn't get far down enough, you're interviewing a former classmate from Afghanistan.
44:57
[SPEAKER_00]: And I was going to ask you that.
44:59
[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't realize that that was your own podcast.
45:02
[SPEAKER_00]: I should have dug a lot deeper because, you know, it was like your feet has so many different posts, but you've only that was the only the one Long ray lesson podcast post that I saw so I didn't think much of it.
45:15
[SPEAKER_00]: I was like, oh, maybe you were being
45:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe you know, there's so much to research about you that And so are you continuing that podcast?
45:28
[SPEAKER_01]: It's been a while since I've been able to sit with another individual.
45:35
[SPEAKER_01]: I like doing them face-to-face So I actually did another interview last year with a classmate out in Dining and
45:45
[SPEAKER_01]: But in terms of like regularly, nah, I haven't kept it up.
45:49
[SPEAKER_01]: So, and that's why I kind of pivoted to this.
45:52
[SPEAKER_01]: Part of it is like logistically.
45:53
[SPEAKER_01]: It's very taxing as you know, especially the ones that are in person and I used to be a one-man show to do all the camera equipment, the recording and the...
46:05
[SPEAKER_01]: the actual hosting.
46:06
[SPEAKER_01]: But yes, pivoting over to the actual stories itself, I think, I choose the same Penn State and allows me to just pump out more stories on a quicker.
46:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh my god, how many people send me your stories?
46:19
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, oh my god, who's this Tom Naked?
46:22
[SPEAKER_00]: Who's this guy?
46:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, you know, everybody sending me these links to all these military.
46:27
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like, the way you format it, the way you, your graphics and the way, you know, I'm like, it's coming from Tom again, you know?
46:36
[SPEAKER_00]: It's awesome, you know a lot.
46:37
[SPEAKER_00]: I've had so many people send me your, your links.
46:41
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, you've got to get this guy on.
46:43
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, well, let me get to the source.
46:44
[SPEAKER_00]: Let me get the time for us and then, you know, let's see if he knows any of these people.
46:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Because it takes a lot of work to like reach out to everybody and, and, and coordinate that, um,
46:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, but that's why I should have you had a podcast because I'm like, that would be perfect if you handled all the military folks that I've had a few of the guys on, but you know, some of these people are like just just amazing or, um,
47:21
[SPEAKER_01]: It takes a lot of work to be able to coordinate with you.
47:23
[SPEAKER_00]: So, yeah, there's so much work that it's crazy.
47:29
[SPEAKER_00]: There is a, we know, I think that was the person that you met, yeah.
47:40
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so this is a, this is the, I wanted to start the podcast with this story, but I don't have the discipline to like stick to one.
47:50
[SPEAKER_00]: There's so much interesting facts going on with you.
47:55
[SPEAKER_00]: But I, this is one of the things that I was going to start with, but so this idea of two governments that used to be a war with each other.
48:07
[SPEAKER_00]: that is from the Vietnamese side, Vietnamese National, that you met in the halls of West Point.
48:13
[SPEAKER_00]: Is that right?
48:14
[SPEAKER_00]: Did I get that story, right?
48:16
[SPEAKER_01]: That's right when I was a first thing.
48:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Can you tell me about, like, Vietnamese, and I don't think he's the first one.
48:22
[SPEAKER_00]: I think he's, there was one in back in 70.
48:27
[SPEAKER_00]: for 73, but let's talk about this person because you actually, it's a modern story that you actually met him at West Point.
48:38
[SPEAKER_00]: But he's not American.
48:40
[SPEAKER_00]: He's not a Vietnamese American like us.
48:42
[SPEAKER_00]: He's an actual Vietnamese national from Vietnam.
48:45
[SPEAKER_00]: How did he end up there?
48:47
[SPEAKER_00]: How did you meet him?
48:47
[SPEAKER_00]: What was the circumstances
48:55
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so the story behind him is that he is a Vietnamese national within the Ministry of National Defense.
49:03
[SPEAKER_01]: And I believe he is probably like an 0506 now, but then the Vietnamese Army.
49:11
[SPEAKER_01]: And he was actually in the States doing his
49:19
[SPEAKER_01]: senior leadership training I think at like CGSC or one of the other military schools that they have for senior officers and that cohort actually was comprised of a bunch of other international military officers and part of that curriculum is actually traveling to different duty stations and seeing how they operate.
49:44
[SPEAKER_01]: So they were just at West Point for one or two days to see
49:48
[SPEAKER_01]: how a West Point operates, and so it is kind of weird for me, again, this is at a time where I was like extremely fascinated.
49:58
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's just like Vietnamese military, Vietnamese officers, and what I mean by that is like Vietnamese American.
50:05
[SPEAKER_01]: So seeing a actual Vietnamese national,
50:10
[SPEAKER_01]: within the military, at rolling the halls of West Point, I was just like, this guy is, what is he doing here?
50:16
[SPEAKER_01]: So as a senior, I was like, hey, I would love to strike up a conversation this guy, talk to him, learn more about his background, ask him why is he here, how'd he end up here?
50:28
[SPEAKER_01]: And we did in touch.
50:30
[SPEAKER_01]: That was 10 years ago and fast forward like to last year during a fourth July party hosted by the US Embassy in Vietnam in Hanoi.
50:41
[SPEAKER_01]: He's back in Vietnam working and he was at the same event and recognized him instantly because he just liked an age and he recognized me.
50:53
[SPEAKER_01]: And this time he was the one that was questioning me.
50:57
[SPEAKER_01]: He's like, what are you doing in Vietnam?
51:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Why are you here?
51:01
[SPEAKER_01]: And I explained the work that I was doing.
51:04
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that interaction, again, is like a testament of how far our two countries have come and kind of demonstrating that,
51:21
[SPEAKER_01]: It's no, we're no longer adversaries.
51:23
[SPEAKER_01]: What people think about like these two countries today, it's like, people don't, I mean, people do, but today's generation, they don't think about the war like our parents or grandparents do.
51:38
[SPEAKER_01]: They think about like,
51:41
[SPEAKER_01]: The future, like, what are we doing today?
51:43
[SPEAKER_01]: How are we trying to improve our people's environment?
51:46
[SPEAKER_01]: What do we think about the economy?
51:48
[SPEAKER_01]: What do you think about education?
51:50
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I think between that interaction between us, like 10 years later, and us kind of like having that friendship and that bond, and there's nothing that we're trying to gain from one another other than just appreciation for the work that we do.
52:07
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that is a testament, again, of just how far to countries have come.
52:13
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like a backward-ass person, even talking about how different we are, as genemies, Americans, and Vietnamese National.
52:23
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like I'm so like in the dark ages still, if I'm not talking about, you know what I mean?
52:28
[SPEAKER_00]: When I think about the story that you have with him, with meaning of, I think about, that's like,
52:35
[SPEAKER_00]: You're living in the future, but it's not really the future.
52:38
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, here, we're like, there is a Vietnamese national that was sent from Vietnam, from Vietnam's military, inside to West Point.
52:49
[SPEAKER_00]: So ever.
52:51
[SPEAKER_00]: Whatever kind of misconceptions we have, I mean, it's really changed my views about oh my god, you know, with three stripes and you know, yellow flag and you know, oh my god, I look at the red flag and I'm so allergic, oh my god, it's you know, and I'm just speaking for a lot of people that are there, that's right.
53:11
[SPEAKER_00]: That's not how I operate.
53:13
[SPEAKER_00]: you know, but when I look up at your story and when you know, a whole story and you think about like this clearance of having Vietnamese national 10 years ago at West Point, that collaboration between the two governments that like these people like in the government are seeing things way beyond where we as civilian people see it and you as a military person who got to experience that at
53:43
[SPEAKER_00]: It changes and alters your view of the relations between two countries today.
53:50
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's why I do the work that I do, too, is because we have to shift this perspective.
53:55
[SPEAKER_00]: We're no longer average, and we are no longer even close to being adversaries.
54:00
[SPEAKER_00]: We're working so close that we even have some...
54:03
[SPEAKER_00]: some of their nation was at our, like the hallowed halls of West Point, this is such a massive deal for people who don't understand like, wait a minute, and that's only like a personal story that we know because of you, right?
54:18
[SPEAKER_00]: But how many other times did Vietnam send their military people to come and study
54:26
[SPEAKER_00]: at the Naval Academy tour around Ivy League schools because I've heard stories of this like first hand accounts of the Vietnamese government coming to America going into the hallowed halls of the Ivy League or Naval Academy now West Point.
54:42
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
54:43
[SPEAKER_00]: This has been going on since the 70s.
54:46
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, 1971 to be exact, at least for West Point.
54:49
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, like, Hung, he was not a graduate.
54:53
[SPEAKER_01]: He was just like a visitor, but Mr. Thumbin' Fam.
55:00
[SPEAKER_01]: He was the first Vietnamese national to a 10 West Point, graduate from West Point, what back to West Point?
55:07
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, so I went back to Vietnam right before the end of the war, and then came prisoner of war, came back to the United States.
55:17
[SPEAKER_01]: He was the first and last one.
55:19
[SPEAKER_01]: And so when I was, I came back to West Point as staff, as an admissions officer.
55:26
[SPEAKER_01]: So I oversaw admissions for
55:32
[SPEAKER_01]: and looking at applicant files, my goal was actually to get the second Vietnamese national to attend West Point.
55:39
[SPEAKER_01]: So I worked pretty closely.
55:42
[SPEAKER_01]: with the our mission's team to be able to identify, you know, someone that could pass all the requirements for the academy.
55:51
[SPEAKER_01]: And then when I was in Vietnam last year, up until last month, I was working with the US Embassy to again identify an individual that could attend the academy.
56:03
[SPEAKER_01]: Unfortunately, no one this year was able to pass requirements for at least West Point.
56:09
[SPEAKER_01]: But there has been one Air Force Academy graduate.
56:14
[SPEAKER_01]: He graduated in 2000, like 24.
56:19
[SPEAKER_01]: So he's actually in Vietnam right now.
56:21
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm connected with him.
56:22
[SPEAKER_01]: And there's a second Vietnamese national that's currently at the Air Force Academy.
56:27
[SPEAKER_01]: And then I think there's been one at the Naval Academy, and as well as one at the Coast Guard Academy.
56:33
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's Vietnam voluntarily sending their folks over there to learn from these institutions this curriculum.
56:42
[SPEAKER_01]: Because they want to, again, they call this like the premier leadership of a premier leadership institution within the world.
56:49
[SPEAKER_01]: So they want to be able to, like,
56:52
[SPEAKER_01]: bring this back, these leaders back so that they can modernize and innovate and change their own workforce.
56:59
[SPEAKER_00]: This is mind blowing to me because I'm always saying on the podcast, I'm always saying that the progress of Vietnam's government and what they've achieved is way ahead of what we
57:20
[SPEAKER_00]: is sending their Vietnamese, their national, their own citizens into the Naval Academy, the Air Force Academy, the West Point military Academy, the Coast Guard Academy, they've been in all four branches.
57:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Why would a communist country, why would a communist country send leaders into the military academies of the United States?
57:47
[SPEAKER_00]: This is like absolutely like amazing information because for all of us that were we're hoping and maybe I might be naive and getting over excited about this small detail.
57:59
[SPEAKER_00]: But it's significant because
58:02
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, if we're operating on this whole like the Constitution of America, we're operating on the principles of this great land and, you know, Vietnamese nationals are being sent over to study and then they're bringing, they're being brought back to, to operate within the, I mean, they're probably sending their people over to Europe as well, like why not, right?
58:22
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and then bringing them back and incorporate them into the military, back in Vietnam.
58:33
[SPEAKER_01]: do you think it's a good thing?
58:35
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's a fantastic thing.
58:37
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's how could it be a bad thing, right?
58:40
[SPEAKER_00]: That's true.
58:41
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, why would you ask me that?
58:43
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you think it's a good thing?
58:46
[SPEAKER_01]: 100% agree.
58:47
[SPEAKER_01]: I do.
58:47
[SPEAKER_01]: Again, it's all about like, understanding what the appetite is.
58:55
[SPEAKER_01]: And I mean, if, and also like, are they,
59:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Are they being progressive in terms of like how they want to modernize, right?
59:04
[SPEAKER_01]: And a lot of it is like how you think so if they were oppressive in nature, they wouldn't even allow these guys.
59:11
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
59:12
[SPEAKER_00]: Totally, that's it.
59:14
[SPEAKER_00]: If they were a press of a nature, it would not happen.
59:17
[SPEAKER_00]: That's like Putin sending his guys into And why would the US allow any Russian KGB or, you know, operatives to go into our Unless the United States has a vision too.
59:28
[SPEAKER_00]: They're just like, oh, well, why don't we educate these guys sending back home and, you know, so they can Kind of operate the way same way we do
59:35
[SPEAKER_00]: which is, it's going to be a win-win no matter what, like we're not going to teach you strategy that is so top secret that you're going to take back to Vietnam or to Russia and do some crazy stuff.
59:47
[SPEAKER_00]: This is like all principles I think of fairness, equality, things that we aspire to in the United States traditionally.
59:56
[SPEAKER_01]: And these guys, they're young people that are going to be the next generation of leaders.
1:00:04
[SPEAKER_01]: So if they have this new perspective and new way of looking at how they're going to operate, they're going to hopefully be able to influence their formations, and that's where the change occurs.
1:00:22
[SPEAKER_00]: beautiful.
1:00:23
[SPEAKER_00]: It's so, you know, amazing.
1:00:28
[SPEAKER_00]: I would love to, you know, I tell this to all my guests.
1:00:31
[SPEAKER_00]: I never get enough of any of our guests because it's just fascinating.
1:00:36
[SPEAKER_00]: I never got to really talk to you about, um,
1:00:39
[SPEAKER_00]: your ideas about Afghanistan because, you know, you sit with your classmate and the recent turning people back to sending them back to Afghanistan, you know, with this current administration, it's a mind boggling to me.
1:00:54
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know how much of it is true and how much of it is being actively pursued.
1:00:58
[SPEAKER_00]: But there's always topics that I would love for you to come back.
1:01:05
[SPEAKER_00]: back on the podcast when you resettled in Hawaii, and I'll probably take my kids by the end of the year to head out to Hawaii.
1:01:15
[SPEAKER_00]: What can you do in person?
1:01:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I would love that.
1:01:19
[SPEAKER_00]: Tom, thank you so much, I appreciate everything that you do, and I hope that you continue to do it.
1:01:28
[SPEAKER_00]: you know, you're really highlighting the best of our people to the world.
1:01:34
[SPEAKER_00]: And you know, we, you know, you can't imagine how many people are reading this, you know, not just the U.S. diaspora, but all over the world, there's people in Europe and I'm sure South America with Vietnamese descent, Vietnamese blood that are reading and going wild.
1:01:48
[SPEAKER_00]: This is pretty fascinating stuff.
1:01:52
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, thanks again for the opportunity to be on the show, can, and again, I just want to get across as like, these stories, they're just ordinary people doing extraordinary things.
1:02:05
[SPEAKER_01]: And we all see a little bit of ourselves and these individuals.
1:02:08
[SPEAKER_01]: And I hope that it can inspire yourself to be able to be that change that you want to see.
1:02:14
[SPEAKER_01]: So thanks, Tom.
1:02:17
[SPEAKER_01]: I appreciate you.
1:02:19
[SPEAKER_01]: Thanks, Ken.
1:02:20
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for listening to The Vietnamese with Kenneth Wynne.
1:02:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Special thanks to Brittany Tran, to Jane Wynne, Catherine Wynne, Tina Fam, Sydney Jamie, and Crystal Tran.
1:02:30
[SPEAKER_00]: Please find us on Instagram, Facebook and TikTok at The Vietnamese Podcast.