Latest / TWO GUYS IN TIES / #12 - Want More Money? Do More.

Transcript

#12 - Want More Money? Do More. · TWO GUYS IN TIES

0:02
SPEAKER_02: You're listening to Two Guys in Ties.
0:06
SPEAKER_02: And welcome back to Two Guys in Ties.
0:08
SPEAKER_02: We actually had a great lead-in.
0:10
SPEAKER_02: I can't remember any of it, but Reagan forgot to hit the record button.
0:13
SPEAKER_02: Reagan, are you sure we're recording?
0:15
SPEAKER_00: We are recording.
0:16
SPEAKER_00: Sorry.
0:16
SPEAKER_00: I was too busy setting up the mics and the cameras and the lights and getting your water.
0:20
SPEAKER_02: Reagan, you don't do enough for this podcast.
0:23
SPEAKER_02: Reagan, you need to step up.
0:25
SPEAKER_02: Now uh we were uh we were sharing some uh some fun tidbits from the field.
0:31
SPEAKER_02: Uh I got a couple good stories from the field this week.
0:33
SPEAKER_02: Mitch, you had a few too, I think, right?
0:34
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I got a few.
0:35
SPEAKER_01: You go first, I'll share mine after.
0:37
SPEAKER_02: All right.
0:37
SPEAKER_02: So one of mine was um uh about um I I was listen sorry, I can't even talk.
0:45
SPEAKER_02: I was listening to a podcast this morning and it was talking about companies that are laying off, right?
0:51
SPEAKER_02: And it was kind of saying that, hey, you want to make sure that you're targeting your job search to companies that are hiring, not laying off.
0:58
SPEAKER_02: And I thought about this and I'm thinking, companies that are laying off are still hiring.
1:02
SPEAKER_02: You know that, right?
1:03
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
1:04
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, the funny thing is when when Chris Bull and I started our company, we were heavily recruited by Corn Fairy, the largest firm in the world.
1:10
SPEAKER_02: They made us offers in December of 2000, in January 01, we started our own firm.
1:15
SPEAKER_02: And the gal who made us offer said, Hey, I'm gonna call you every quarter.
1:18
SPEAKER_02: I still want you on my team.
1:20
SPEAKER_02: Fast forward to June, six months in, we've got the tech recession.
1:23
SPEAKER_02: It's right before 9-11.
1:26
SPEAKER_02: But there's a front page of the business section that says Corn Fairy lays off 300 people.
1:30
SPEAKER_02: Back then they only had 2,000, so it was about 15% of their workforce.
1:34
SPEAKER_02: And at 10 o'clock in the morning, she gives me a call and she's like, Hey, just checking in.
1:38
SPEAKER_02: How you doing?
1:38
SPEAKER_02: I said, Well, I'm doing great.
1:39
SPEAKER_02: How are you?
1:40
SPEAKER_02: She goes, I want you on my team.
1:41
SPEAKER_02: I said, Hey, listen, I just read in the paper today you laid off 300 people.
1:45
SPEAKER_02: She goes, Rod, we laid off people who know how to answer a ringing phone.
1:49
SPEAKER_02: You and Chris know how to make a phone ring.
1:52
SPEAKER_02: And those skills are always in demand in our company.
1:56
SPEAKER_02: So, you know, the moral of the story is even if a company is laying off, it doesn't mean that they don't need your skills.
2:03
SPEAKER_02: And the funny thing is, because other people are going to be thinking, well, they're not hiring because they're laying off.
2:08
SPEAKER_02: And how many, how many times have you heard this from people?
2:11
SPEAKER_01: All the time.
2:12
SPEAKER_01: Oh, the economy and you know, there's a lot of layoffs happening, the job market's really tough.
2:17
SPEAKER_01: I think whatever you believe is true.
2:19
SPEAKER_01: If you want to believe it's tough and you want to point your finger outside to why you've been unemployed for six months, I think you're probably right.
2:26
SPEAKER_01: But I think if you look within and you think, am I really doing everything I need to?
2:30
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it doesn't solve the problem.
2:32
SPEAKER_02: It doesn't solve the problem if you point outside.
2:34
SPEAKER_02: You got to take ownership of this.
2:36
SPEAKER_02: This is one thing I want to say.
2:37
SPEAKER_02: If your job search is taking too long, own it.
2:40
SPEAKER_02: It's not taking long for everybody.
2:42
SPEAKER_02: And if you're hanging out with people whose job search is taking too long, I think you're hanging out with the wrong people.
2:47
SPEAKER_02: It's almost like you're a B student, you're hanging out with C students, you're feeling good.
2:51
SPEAKER_02: Hang out with A students, you're gonna improve your performance.
2:54
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
2:54
SPEAKER_02: Right?
2:55
SPEAKER_02: Um, but yeah, so even if companies are laying off, I take a contrarian view.
3:00
SPEAKER_02: Call those companies, call the leaders within those companies.
3:03
SPEAKER_02: What is your unique skill set and experience?
3:05
SPEAKER_02: And by the way, nobody's calling on them, right?
3:07
SPEAKER_02: Because everybody's thinking, well, they're laying off.
3:10
SPEAKER_02: Well, guess what?
3:10
SPEAKER_02: Get on the phone, get in front of those folks, meet them at trade shows.
3:14
SPEAKER_02: They're still out trying to fix their business.
3:16
SPEAKER_01: Couldn't agree with you more.
3:17
SPEAKER_02: All right, so that was my that was my one field example.
3:20
SPEAKER_02: I got another one I want to give, but I'm not gonna do it now.
3:22
SPEAKER_02: Reagan and I actually had a really great conversation yesterday about um stepping up.
3:28
SPEAKER_02: And I want to bring that up later.
3:29
SPEAKER_02: Can we bring that up later?
3:30
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
3:31
SPEAKER_02: All right.
3:31
SPEAKER_02: Mitch, you had a good story.
3:32
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, as you know, we've been hiring.
3:34
SPEAKER_01: So I've been in the field actually from the hiring manager's lens, uh, you know, interviewing people.
3:39
SPEAKER_01: And it's interesting, I had someone actually tell me this earlier in the week.
3:43
SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, I'm talking to him and he's he's you know, he seemed pretty decent.
3:47
SPEAKER_01: And he goes, you know, if this is something that that is gonna work, like we got to move quick.
3:52
SPEAKER_01: And I go, really?
3:53
SPEAKER_01: Okay, what's your timing?
3:54
SPEAKER_01: He goes, Well, I have two offers as of today, and I should have four by the end of the week.
3:59
SPEAKER_01: And I'm thinking, what the heck?
4:01
SPEAKER_01: What's the point of collecting all of these offers?
4:04
SPEAKER_01: And it makes me start to wonder, and and this this isn't uncommon.
4:07
SPEAKER_01: I've talked to other candidates, even for some of our searches, where they they they're offer collectors, and I wonder, what's the point of all of this?
4:15
SPEAKER_01: How are you basing your decision?
4:17
SPEAKER_01: And I'm really big that we want to hire people who pick the right company and the right job, and the money's gotta make sense.
4:23
SPEAKER_01: But ultimately, if the first two are known, we've talked about this.
4:26
SPEAKER_01: There's no reason to talk about the money.
4:28
SPEAKER_01: I don't want to hire someone who picks us because we were five grand stronger than the other three offers.
4:33
SPEAKER_02: Do you think they're using you as a straw horse to uh uh get more money out of somebody else?
4:38
SPEAKER_02: I just got an offer, they're gonna pay me more.
4:41
SPEAKER_02: I'd like to come here, but I need you to match it.
4:44
SPEAKER_01: I have no clue.
4:45
SPEAKER_01: We haven't gotten that far yet in the conversation.
4:47
SPEAKER_01: It was like literally an introduction conversation.
4:49
SPEAKER_01: We were just introduced literally when we had that first discussion.
4:54
SPEAKER_01: Um, but it's interesting.
4:55
SPEAKER_01: I don't understand.
4:56
SPEAKER_01: I think part of it's leverage, but it's funny, as a hiring manager, it's actually a turnoff.
5:00
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
5:00
SPEAKER_01: Like I'd rather him say, Yeah, you know, I've gotten a couple offers, but I don't feel like I've found what I'm looking for yet.
5:06
SPEAKER_01: And I I I want to have a fallback.
5:09
SPEAKER_01: I don't want to be unemployed.
5:10
SPEAKER_02: So are they all in the same industry?
5:13
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, recruiting.
5:14
SPEAKER_02: Okay.
5:14
SPEAKER_02: All right.
5:14
SPEAKER_02: Well, that's at least a good sign.
5:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
5:16
SPEAKER_02: Right?
5:17
SPEAKER_02: Because he or she knows they want to be, it's a he, right?
5:19
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
5:20
SPEAKER_02: Wants to be in recruiting.
5:21
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
5:21
SPEAKER_02: Um, so that's good.
5:22
SPEAKER_02: I've seen this happen where people are looking at all kinds of different things financial services, recruiting, uh, consumer products.
5:30
SPEAKER_02: They don't know what they want.
5:31
SPEAKER_01: I've had people like that too.
5:32
SPEAKER_01: And but I think the I get it, right?
5:35
SPEAKER_01: If you're unemployed, you don't want to be unemployed.
5:37
SPEAKER_01: Um, but I also think in some ways, if you have that many choices, like you should be able to narrow things down.
5:43
SPEAKER_01: I it'd be hard for me to imagine I get four, I interview for four jobs, and I can't choose which one I want.
5:48
SPEAKER_01: I feel like at that stage I would know which one's my first choice, and I would go for that.
5:54
SPEAKER_02: Did you ask that question?
5:55
SPEAKER_02: Uh if you got an offer from us, what are you gonna do?
5:59
SPEAKER_01: So I actually, this is a different candidate that we're interviewing where they're looking at SaaS sales, and that's mostly their background, but they're they have a parent who isn't recruiting, and they've they're interested now is the time to make a career pivot because they're early.
6:12
SPEAKER_01: Um and he said, Hey, I want to, you know, even if this all goes well, I want to put a couple weeks to finish the other interview processes.
6:18
SPEAKER_01: And I said, Hey, if you interviewed here and this was like your dream job, everything that you were looking for, wouldn't you know enough if you got into the final stages with the other companies to know if this is what you will want to do?
6:30
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, what'd he say?
6:31
SPEAKER_01: Uh he kind of dodged the answer.
6:33
SPEAKER_01: Good salesperson, kind of kind of dodged it, but it is interesting because you think it if you're choosing alignment, you should know fairly quickly.
6:40
SPEAKER_02: You know, some people are afraid though, when push comes to shove.
6:43
SPEAKER_02: You know, I I I talked with somebody earlier this week about uh somebody who has financial services background and uh all the series licenses and they've sat for that.
6:54
SPEAKER_02: And it reminded me of our president of our search business who had a great uh degree coming out of USC and then went to law school at Penn State, became a lawyer, and 10 years in decided that wasn't the path.
7:07
SPEAKER_02: That was a very, very difficult decision.
7:09
SPEAKER_02: Turned out to be the best decision of his life because he's done incredibly well.
7:13
SPEAKER_02: He's the president of our largest division, um, and he's built a really, really great practice and more importantly, a great life in this business.
7:21
SPEAKER_02: But think about that, right?
7:22
SPEAKER_02: You go to law school for three years, you practice as an attorney with a number of firms, you move up, and then all of a sudden you're gonna ditch that whole thing and everything you invested to go make a change.
7:32
SPEAKER_02: You got to be really resolved that you're ready to make a change.
7:36
SPEAKER_02: And I don't know that people are.
7:37
SPEAKER_02: I think there's fear.
7:38
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
7:38
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think I think there's a lot of people who are resolved that the change needs to happen, but because of some cost fallacy, they stay in a career.
7:47
SPEAKER_02: Explain that.
7:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
7:49
SPEAKER_01: Uh we had this actually happen to another person we were hiring where they had their series seven and all their financial advisory um I guess prereqs and and certifications, and they seemed pretty clear that they were ready for some type of change and that recruiting was a path that would give them much more fulfillment, and coming into a smaller company after being at a large, large company uh would be really impactful.
8:16
SPEAKER_01: Uh but ultimately they they weren't ready to give it up.
8:19
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
8:20
SPEAKER_02: Do you think it's so you think it's sunk cost fallacy?
8:22
SPEAKER_02: I want you to explain that.
8:23
SPEAKER_02: So what that means, well, go ahead.
8:25
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, sunk cost fallacy is essentially I've invested time and resources towards this path, therefore I will stay on this path, even if it no longer serves me because of the time and resources I spent.
8:37
SPEAKER_02: All right.
8:38
SPEAKER_02: So I want to say this to our listeners.
8:40
SPEAKER_02: Uh, all three of them out there, all three of you that are listening right now.
8:43
SPEAKER_02: Reagan, there's probably more, right?
8:45
SPEAKER_00: I hope so.
8:45
SPEAKER_00: Not what there is.
8:46
SPEAKER_02: We we got quite a few downloads last week.
8:48
SPEAKER_02: Um, I just want to say this to our listeners.
8:51
SPEAKER_02: If you are thinking you're in the wrong path, chances are really good you're you're in the wrong career, right?
8:58
SPEAKER_02: And have the courage to make the change as early as you possibly can.
9:03
SPEAKER_02: I have a really, really good friend of mine who's my age.
9:06
SPEAKER_02: I'm 61.
9:07
SPEAKER_02: He's exactly my age.
9:09
SPEAKER_02: Twenty years ago, he was a senior HR leader at some really big companies in Orange County and wanted to get into financial planning and money management.
9:18
SPEAKER_02: And he thought he'd have to wait until he retired.
9:20
SPEAKER_02: He figured he'd have to wait until he was 50 to do this.
9:23
SPEAKER_02: And he talked to his financial planner about it, and he said, No, I can do this if you keep saving the way you're saving.
9:28
SPEAKER_02: In two to three years, I can get you to make the move.
9:31
SPEAKER_02: So he made the move.
9:32
SPEAKER_02: He's been doing financial planning for pushing 20 years now, almost two decades.
9:36
SPEAKER_02: He's managing over a billion dollars in assets.
9:38
SPEAKER_02: He's got 17 employees in his team.
9:40
SPEAKER_02: He is having the time of his life.
9:42
SPEAKER_02: He was an HR person that was he he was a he was a money manager caught in an HR person's body in an HR person's career, and he was doing the wrong thing for almost 20 years.
9:53
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's crazy.
9:54
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so there is no time like the present.
9:57
SPEAKER_02: If you think you're doing the wrong thing, you might be.
10:00
SPEAKER_02: I can't tell you how many people changed careers from law, changed careers from nursing, from being doctors.
10:06
SPEAKER_02: Doctors sometimes become medical device inventors.
10:09
SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's unbelievable, or sometimes become uh medical practitioners in healthcare services, like running hospitals, things like that.
10:16
SPEAKER_02: So I think there's a lot of other career options.
10:19
SPEAKER_02: I think people need to make those choices early.
10:21
SPEAKER_02: What do you think about this, Reagan?
10:23
SPEAKER_02: I mean, you're you're friends with a bunch of 25, 30-year-olds.
10:26
SPEAKER_02: How many people, well, your brother-in-law.
10:29
SPEAKER_02: Didn't he make a change?
10:30
SPEAKER_00: That is true.
10:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, he went to school for business and then was in marketing for a bit, and now he's going to med school.
10:36
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and what a great idea to make that change early in their career.
10:40
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
10:40
SPEAKER_02: You're gonna look back 30 years from now and say, I'm really glad I did that.
10:43
SPEAKER_02: Think of what would happen if you spent 10, 20, 30 years doing the wrong thing.
10:48
SPEAKER_02: You'll be like 80% of the people out there, but they're not happy with their jobs.
10:52
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, this is actually something we talk about when we recruit passive candidates, is that every three to five years, you should audit your career.
11:00
SPEAKER_01: Not enough people do that.
11:01
SPEAKER_01: They get into a company, they mistake stability and comfort for security.
11:09
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
11:09
SPEAKER_02: Um, yeah, I hate that word, stability.
11:12
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
11:13
SPEAKER_02: Guys, there's no stability out there.
11:15
SPEAKER_02: Can we just put that out there?
11:16
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I don't care if you work for Microsoft, Apple, Google, Meta, whatever company you work for, could be huge.
11:23
SPEAKER_02: The federal government, they laid off 300,000 people last year.
11:26
SPEAKER_02: Come on.
11:26
SPEAKER_02: There's no stability.
11:27
SPEAKER_02: The only stability is you being great at your job and becoming indispensable to whatever employer you're working for.
11:33
SPEAKER_02: And if that employer changes and goes in a different direction, go find another one that you can be indispensable.
11:39
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
11:40
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
11:40
SPEAKER_02: Sorry, I feel like I cut you off.
11:42
SPEAKER_02: No, I'm passionate about this.
11:43
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, this is something we talk about, right?
11:45
SPEAKER_01: Because people are at a company, I've been here five years, I'm really happy.
11:48
SPEAKER_01: It's like you're not really happy, you're just comfortable and you feel secure and stable.
11:52
SPEAKER_01: Uh, and it's about challenging that belief of, hey, every three to five years you should audit your career.
11:57
SPEAKER_01: Go interview, keep those skills fresh because you never know when you're gonna need them.
12:01
SPEAKER_01: One, and two, look over the fence, confirm and audit that you really are in the right place.
12:07
SPEAKER_01: And most time when we when we use that argument and candidates interview and they get the job, they leave.
12:12
SPEAKER_01: Oh, wow.
12:12
SPEAKER_01: Because they haven't really audited themselves and they've been at a company.
12:15
SPEAKER_01: I'm all about loyalty and long term, but I find a lot of people, you know, again, companies are loyal to employees who maybe weren't loyal to them, and vice versa.
12:23
SPEAKER_01: Employees are loyal to companies who aren't always loyal in return to them.
12:27
SPEAKER_02: Well, I and I think loyalty comes um in two forms.
12:31
SPEAKER_02: It's the ability to move somebody's career ahead, right?
12:33
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and it's really let's let's let's let's get rid of the word loyalty for a minute.
12:37
SPEAKER_02: I call it a bargain.
12:38
SPEAKER_02: The grand bargain is you come and work here, in exchange, we're gonna pay you and we're gonna develop you and we're gonna move you up.
12:45
SPEAKER_02: And if those things aren't happening and you're not liking it and you don't like our culture, you need to leave.
12:51
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you absolutely need to leave.
12:53
SPEAKER_02: And by the way, if you're not delivering what they're supposed to be like for what they're paying you and giving you in terms of opportunity, they need to fire you.
13:03
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, right?
13:04
SPEAKER_02: The grand bargain goes both ways.
13:06
SPEAKER_02: If you're not bringing in, and so many employees feel like, well, the company this and the company that and all that's like, have you delivered?
13:12
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I keep hearing stories about people that's you know, they're they're quiet quitting for six months.
13:16
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
13:17
SPEAKER_02: That's like stealing.
13:19
SPEAKER_02: Literally, it's like stealing.
13:20
SPEAKER_02: You're getting paid out of some company's coffers, and a lot of private companies are owned by families and all that.
13:26
SPEAKER_02: That's literally coming out of their pockets to pay you, and you're sitting there faking doing work.
13:31
SPEAKER_02: I don't know, I'm sounding angry.
13:32
SPEAKER_02: How am I sounding angry, Reagan?
13:34
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I don't mean to sound angry.
13:35
SPEAKER_01: It's not like you've had this happen to you in the past.
13:38
SPEAKER_02: This is not something I am getting over.
13:41
SPEAKER_02: It's happened before, but no, I'm good with it.
13:43
SPEAKER_02: No, but I do think that in the owe it to yourself, because I think even if you're quiet quitting, you're not happy.
13:49
SPEAKER_02: Nobody's happy.
13:50
SPEAKER_02: It's like a bad relationship.
13:51
SPEAKER_02: The relationship already ended.
13:53
SPEAKER_02: Just have the courage to step out.
13:55
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
13:55
SPEAKER_02: Or don't step out.
13:56
SPEAKER_02: Have the courage to move out.
13:58
SPEAKER_01: To leave.
13:59
SPEAKER_02: To leave.
14:00
SPEAKER_02: Don't step out on the relationship.
14:01
SPEAKER_02: That's not what I'm saying.
14:02
SPEAKER_02: Reagan, you had a really good topic.
14:04
SPEAKER_02: You and I talked about yesterday.
14:06
SPEAKER_02: Do you remember?
14:06
SPEAKER_02: What was it?
14:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we were sitting in the Apple store for about an hour and then got to talking.
14:12
SPEAKER_02: Um by the way, Apple, great product.
14:14
SPEAKER_02: People lie.
14:15
SPEAKER_02: Hey, it's gonna be ready in five minutes.
14:17
SPEAKER_02: Hey, they're bringing how many times do they say they're bringing your phone out and we're waiting another 20, 30, 40 minutes?
14:23
SPEAKER_00: He said it's in someone's hand.
14:24
SPEAKER_00: They're walking down right now.
14:27
SPEAKER_02: And if 40 minutes later, we got our phone.
14:29
SPEAKER_02: It was crazy.
14:30
SPEAKER_02: Anyway, what was the conversation?
14:32
SPEAKER_00: We got it.
14:32
SPEAKER_00: No, we talked about people doing more and then also getting paid more and what that should look like.
14:41
SPEAKER_02: So one of the things I shared with Reagan is I've seen it recently.
14:45
SPEAKER_02: In fact, somebody that I work closely with and I mentor, you know, kind of said, Well, I didn't want to do this until I knew that this was going to be my deal.
14:53
SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, Well, why would you do that?
14:54
SPEAKER_02: Why wouldn't you just assume it's gonna be your deal and do it?
14:58
SPEAKER_02: Do the job before you're actually given the job.
15:00
SPEAKER_02: Do the job and the pay.
15:02
SPEAKER_02: It the pay will come, the job will come, all that, because you're proving yourself indispensable.
15:07
SPEAKER_02: But Reagan, you told me there's like a rash of things going out there on social media about this.
15:11
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, I used to think this before I see it.
15:16
SPEAKER_02: You thought like this?
15:17
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you're a union.
15:19
SPEAKER_02: Are you a union?
15:20
SPEAKER_00: That's what I'm seeing on my TikTok.
15:24
SPEAKER_02: Oh my god, tell us your brainwashing.
15:27
SPEAKER_00: I see these videos of people saying, do not do any more work until you get paid more.
15:34
SPEAKER_02: And do you think these people are getting paid more?
15:37
SPEAKER_00: No.
15:38
SPEAKER_01: I don't even know if those people are employed anymore.
15:40
SPEAKER_02: They're probably not even employed.
15:42
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
15:42
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
15:43
SPEAKER_02: What can we use you as an example?
15:45
SPEAKER_02: I mean, you're doing a job that you weren't prepared to be doing, but two years ago you got it, and you're making more significantly.
15:54
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
15:54
SPEAKER_02: Tell us about that.
15:55
SPEAKER_00: And I had to prove myself first.
15:57
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
15:58
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
15:58
SPEAKER_02: So without experience, sometimes you got to get in there and prove the job.
16:02
SPEAKER_02: Prove that you're you're worthy of that job.
16:04
SPEAKER_01: Every single job I've had, I've done more than I was paid for, and I've climbed the ladder the more aggressive than anyone else in the company.
16:13
SPEAKER_01: Solely because I was willing to see opportunity.
16:16
SPEAKER_01: It's like the taker mentality we talked about.
16:18
SPEAKER_02: Uh and it's interesting because explain that again because the taker mentality has a connotation.
16:23
SPEAKER_02: No, I know.
16:24
SPEAKER_02: That doesn't sound good, but tell me that.
16:26
SPEAKER_01: It's about not sitting around waiting, it's about taking opportunity in front of you.
16:28
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
16:29
SPEAKER_01: If you see an opportunity, work that needs to be done, a gap, fill it.
16:34
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I can tell my story a little bit.
16:36
SPEAKER_01: I mean, this might be a good way to talk about the pay gap, but as you know, I worked for Mercedes-Benz when I was 19.
16:42
SPEAKER_01: I sold myself to the GM with no experience.
16:44
SPEAKER_01: I came in in a suit and tie and pitched him on all the things I could do.
16:48
SPEAKER_01: And basically that I could be the utility player he needed across service and detailing and sales.
16:55
SPEAKER_01: And uh I literally would wash cars and I'd bring a suit and I'd wait for them to call me so I could go up front.
17:01
SPEAKER_01: And I started just seeing things that I could do and just started taking initiative.
17:05
SPEAKER_01: And I went from washing cars to selling cars at 19 years old.
17:08
SPEAKER_01: So tell me about the other people that worked there.
17:11
SPEAKER_01: Did they have that taker mentality?
17:12
SPEAKER_01: No, everyone just did their job.
17:14
SPEAKER_01: If you wash cars, you wash cars.
17:15
SPEAKER_01: If you service cars, you service cars.
17:17
SPEAKER_01: If you sell cars, you sell cars.
17:19
SPEAKER_01: I was able to move from detailing, which is the lowest on the totem pole, directly into a sales role and then ultimately the internet sales manager solely by just doing things that I knew would get me on that path.
17:32
SPEAKER_01: I think most people they did it's a job, it's not a career.
17:34
SPEAKER_01: They don't look at it in how can I advance, how can I move up, and they wait to be tapped on the shoulder.
17:40
SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think part of it is again, it's if you work at a bad company, they might ask you to do more, you might not get the promotion, you might be taken advantage of, and they might tease you with the carrot of opportunity that's never gonna happen.
17:54
SPEAKER_01: Um, but I also think most companies aren't that way.
17:56
SPEAKER_01: And if you work for that, it's maybe time to find a different environment.
17:59
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think you know, do the job you want to have, right?
18:02
SPEAKER_02: Because if nobody else is doing it, that's an opportunity for you to shine.
18:06
SPEAKER_02: This is one of the things that I I love about um the corporate kind of ladder.
18:12
SPEAKER_02: Very few people are willing to climb up the rungs of the ladder without being given a red carpet and without somebody coming to them and saying, here, I'm gonna give you this opportunity.
18:23
SPEAKER_02: But the reality is if you take that opportunity, I love your idea of the taker mentality, and it doesn't it, it's not at all how it sounds, right?
18:32
SPEAKER_02: Take responsibility.
18:33
SPEAKER_02: Go there, solve a problem that nobody else is willing to step in and solve and show them that you deserve it.
18:38
SPEAKER_02: People, this is how you hear about CEOs of, you know, hundreds of millions or billion-dollar companies in their late 30s, right?
18:46
SPEAKER_02: Who climbs the ladder that fast?
18:48
SPEAKER_02: Well, somebody who's got that taker mentality.
18:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, did you see the I think it was the CEO of Target now on his LinkedIn?
18:54
SPEAKER_00: You can see the progression of, I think he started as on the floor and now he's CEO.
19:00
SPEAKER_02: I haven't seen it.
19:00
SPEAKER_02: No, I want to see that for sure.
19:02
SPEAKER_02: That's a great idea.
19:02
SPEAKER_02: Look at the CEO of Target's LinkedIn.
19:04
SPEAKER_02: That's a great idea.
19:05
SPEAKER_02: No, I think, and Reagan, back to your point when you kicked this off.
19:09
SPEAKER_02: I think there's a lot of social media out there that's gonna steer people wrong.
19:13
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, the reality is if you want to have an uncommon career and uncommon career success, you need to go out there and give an uncommon effort.
19:23
SPEAKER_02: And if you're doing that, to your point, Mitch, the company's either gonna recognize it, pay you, and give you the job, or they're not.
19:30
SPEAKER_02: And if not, you can still take those skills and experience to another company that will.
19:35
SPEAKER_01: And if they weren't gonna do it anyways, you'd be sitting and waiting a hell of a lot longer than if you just take the opportunity and realize it's not gonna happen.
19:42
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and imagine this you do the job at that company, and even if they don't give you the recognition, the money, the title, whatever, you've done the job.
19:51
SPEAKER_02: Go find another job.
19:53
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
19:53
SPEAKER_02: And tell them this is what you were doing.
19:55
SPEAKER_02: It's exactly what you were doing.
19:56
SPEAKER_02: And who cares what the title was?
19:58
SPEAKER_02: If the title didn't match what you were doing, that's what you were doing.
20:01
SPEAKER_02: Those are your accomplishments, share those.
20:04
SPEAKER_02: And most companies back it up.
20:05
SPEAKER_02: I mean, if somebody leaves our company and they were doing a role that maybe wasn't theirs, but they had the uh scope of responsibility, we back it up and say, Yeah, that was the job they were doing when we give a reference.
20:17
SPEAKER_02: So we never give bad references if somebody's done good work, you know.
20:21
SPEAKER_02: And we we hate to see people leave, but you know, if we didn't give them the opportunity for growth, then they should leave, you know, and sometimes we're we're not in that space to do it, and it happens.
20:30
SPEAKER_02: And we're sorry to see good people go, but at the same time, we're actually happy that we're developing people's careers.
20:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
20:36
SPEAKER_00: Even when I started as a researcher at this company, I was I knew deep down that I would be better in operations.
20:44
SPEAKER_00: So when people are asking me to help with office management, background checks, whatever it was, I would say yes because I wanted to be in operations.
20:52
SPEAKER_02: Is that how this whole this whole thing happened?
20:55
SPEAKER_00: Looking back, I'm like, yes, I knew what I was doing.
20:59
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
21:00
SPEAKER_02: At the time, maybe not, but now looking back, yeah, that's funny.
21:03
SPEAKER_02: I didn't actually know you were doing that either.
21:05
SPEAKER_02: That's the other thing that you can do.
21:07
SPEAKER_02: I think it's important is when you start doing things like that, enroll your boss or your boss's boss, or other senior folks in the company in your vision.
21:17
SPEAKER_02: If you get people enrolled in your vision um and you do great work, they're gonna they're gonna create opportunities for you.
21:24
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
21:24
SPEAKER_02: All right, so can we uh can we leave people with a couple of uh thoughts and ideas that they can develop in their careers uh for the next couple of minutes?
21:33
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think one is uh if you want to make more, do more, which is the title of this podcast.
21:40
SPEAKER_01: Don't sit around and wait.
21:42
SPEAKER_01: Grab the opportunity and show that you're worthy of more.
21:47
SPEAKER_00: How long should people wait though in a company when they are doing more and not seeing that they're getting compensation?
21:54
SPEAKER_01: Well, I think part of it is asking for it, right?
21:56
SPEAKER_01: Like part of the reason I'm here where I am now is because I left a company, because I felt Like I had a ceiling that I didn't want.
22:03
SPEAKER_01: But I made it clear what I wanted.
22:05
SPEAKER_01: I made it clear that the changes I wanted to see, the money I wanted to make.
22:09
SPEAKER_01: And it made it easy for me to discover pretty quickly that this might not be a place I'm going to be forever.
22:15
SPEAKER_02: Hey, I want to challenge listeners right now.
22:17
SPEAKER_02: I think there's an opportunity to take your career in your own hands right now.
22:21
SPEAKER_02: If you're thinking you like the company you're with, there's a job there that you like, but you don't have that job, go talk to your boss or their boss or a supervisor in a different department that you'd like to be in and build a relationship and start networking internally for the job that you want.
22:39
SPEAKER_02: If that job exists at your company, go get that job.
22:42
SPEAKER_02: Go take that job.
22:44
SPEAKER_02: If it doesn't exist at your company, you probably have to look hard at leaving, right?
22:48
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
22:49
SPEAKER_02: So I want to challenge people that are listening that are doing the job that they don't really want to do longer term.
22:54
SPEAKER_02: They've been doing it a while and they want some more growth and career progression.
22:59
SPEAKER_02: Go figure out what that next job should be.
23:02
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and in my opinion, really good managers and leaders will sit down and talk to you about your career.
23:08
SPEAKER_01: They'll help you roadmap it.
23:10
SPEAKER_01: But I hate to say it, but not everyone's a great manager and leader.
23:13
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, they don't have time these days.
23:15
SPEAKER_02: And that's that's a bad excuse.
23:16
SPEAKER_02: I don't want to say that, but you know, we have our uh our new chief operations and growth officer uh just got back from maternity leave, and she's running um all those um, she's running operations, execution, and she's overseeing actually uh the growth of all of our search practices in North America, and she's fired up and she takes a very strategic approach and proactive approach to sitting down with each person in each business unit and understanding their path.
23:45
SPEAKER_02: Our former COO did a great job at that too.
23:47
SPEAKER_02: She was probably the best person I ever worked with in career development.
23:51
SPEAKER_02: And the reason I can say that is I've worked with a lot of folks that aren't very good.
23:55
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
23:56
SPEAKER_02: Right?
23:56
SPEAKER_02: And so they don't actually create a bespoke career path for everybody.
24:01
SPEAKER_02: Your career path should be custom.
24:03
SPEAKER_02: Brigan, how many people have gone from internal recruiting to office management and you know, executive assistant and doing the stuff that you're in, producing a podcast?
24:13
SPEAKER_00: I don't know anybody.
24:14
SPEAKER_02: Right.
24:15
SPEAKER_02: It's it's unique, it doesn't happen.
24:18
SPEAKER_02: There's not many out there that have done it, certainly not in our company, but you got to grab the bull by the horns and you've got to make that opportunity available to yourself.
24:25
SPEAKER_02: And hopefully your manager is sitting down.
24:27
SPEAKER_02: If there's managers here listening to this podcast, go sit down with your people and find out what their goals are.
24:32
SPEAKER_02: How often do I ask you if you're happy?
24:35
SPEAKER_00: Every day.
24:36
SPEAKER_02: Is it really?
24:37
SPEAKER_02: Is it that often?
24:39
SPEAKER_00: Maybe every other day.
24:40
SPEAKER_02: Oh my God.
24:41
SPEAKER_02: I want to make sure my people are achieving their goals and they're moving ahead the way they want to move ahead.
24:46
SPEAKER_02: So I think it's really important.
24:48
SPEAKER_02: Hey, I got another tidbit for everybody.
24:50
SPEAKER_02: So um do the job you want to have, go ask for the pay later.
24:54
SPEAKER_02: That's number one, right?
24:56
SPEAKER_02: We've we've we've landed on that.
24:58
SPEAKER_02: The second thing is um take stock of your career right now.
25:02
SPEAKER_02: To your point, your your career audit, your job audit, take a look at that.
25:06
SPEAKER_02: I call it taking stock and saying, am I happy?
25:09
SPEAKER_02: Do I like this path?
25:10
SPEAKER_02: If I don't like this path, but I like this company, what path within this company would I like?
25:15
SPEAKER_02: That's the second thing.
25:16
SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna give you a third thing.
25:18
SPEAKER_02: Network internally in your company.
25:21
SPEAKER_02: Go meet three supervisors in your company right now that you don't work with and ask them to either coffee or lunch so you can learn about their jobs and their departments and they can get to know you.
25:36
SPEAKER_02: I think in networking is something that, by in-networking, I mean networking inside your own company.
25:41
SPEAKER_02: I think it's something that's an art that doesn't exist.
25:44
SPEAKER_02: I wouldn't even call it a lost art.
25:45
SPEAKER_02: I don't think it ever existed.
25:47
SPEAKER_02: But to your point about the CEO of Target, there was no way that person came up from within at the bottom of the the ladder without networking internally.
25:57
SPEAKER_00: True.
25:58
SPEAKER_02: And because people don't do this, if you do this, you will be unique.
26:03
SPEAKER_02: Stand out.
26:04
SPEAKER_02: All right, I want one more thing, Mitch.
26:06
SPEAKER_02: Fourth thing.
26:06
SPEAKER_02: Got a fourth?
26:07
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think uh it's funny.
26:08
SPEAKER_01: I was listening to what you're saying and I kind of tuned it out, but I think the fourth one's not cool.
26:13
SPEAKER_01: I do not my thoughts.
26:15
SPEAKER_01: Okay, yeah.
26:15
SPEAKER_01: No, I was listening to you and tuned out what I'm saying.
26:19
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, look at it.
26:20
SPEAKER_00: Here, this is his LinkedIn.
26:21
SPEAKER_02: Oh my god.
26:22
SPEAKER_02: Target, how many years?
26:23
SPEAKER_00: So he starts as an analyst.
26:25
SPEAKER_02: Wow.
26:25
SPEAKER_00: Oh no, even more.
26:26
SPEAKER_00: Finance intern, actually.
26:28
SPEAKER_02: Finance intern.
26:29
SPEAKER_00: And now he is CEO.
26:31
SPEAKER_02: That's amazing.
26:32
SPEAKER_02: I love that story.
26:33
SPEAKER_02: How many years?
26:34
SPEAKER_00: 22 years.
26:35
SPEAKER_02: That's great.
26:36
SPEAKER_02: I mean, 22 years to be CEO of a company like I think Target's a hundred billion dollar company.
26:41
SPEAKER_02: That's really fast.
26:41
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
26:42
SPEAKER_01: That's that's really CFO first, then COO, then CEO.
26:45
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
26:46
SPEAKER_02: Keep going.
26:46
SPEAKER_02: All right, Mitch.
26:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think um I think the big one is wake up.
26:52
SPEAKER_01: If you're in a job and path that's not aligned, make a change.
26:57
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
26:58
SPEAKER_01: Don't wait 15 years, don't wait till never to one day wake up and realize I I wish I'd done things differently.
27:04
SPEAKER_01: Make the change now.
27:05
SPEAKER_01: There is no sunk cost that's worth more than your fulfillment in life.
27:10
SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna I'm gonna do a little plug for one of our companies.
27:12
SPEAKER_02: It's not really a plug, but I just want to do a play on the name.
27:15
SPEAKER_02: We have a company that's a coaching company called Activate 180.
27:18
SPEAKER_02: And the reason we named it Activate 180 is we want to do a 180 on employee engagement.
27:23
SPEAKER_02: We want to activate employees and improve engagement.
27:26
SPEAKER_02: Employee engagement at some companies can be really, really low.
27:30
SPEAKER_02: And if we can turn that around, we can turn around their performance.
27:33
SPEAKER_02: I want people, this is what I want to challenge.
27:35
SPEAKER_02: I want people to do a 180 on their own engagement.
27:38
SPEAKER_02: If they're looking internally in their company and they're not that engaged, you're not doing your company a favor and you're not doing your career a favor.
27:46
SPEAKER_02: So to double, you know, um uh uh double down on what you said, Mitch, I think it's important for people to take stock in that.
27:54
SPEAKER_02: I want to do one other quick thing.
27:56
SPEAKER_02: If you are interviewing for multiple companies and you get to a point where you get to a job offer with a company and you decline it because you don't want to change industries, I think you wasted their time.
28:07
SPEAKER_02: I think what you should do is go in, ask all the questions as if you've got the job being offered to you already so that you don't have to waste their time to get all the way to the offer.
28:17
SPEAKER_02: Imagine that, right?
28:18
SPEAKER_02: Somebody's looking at changing careers, and then they find out at the end of the day with the offer that they don't want to change careers.
28:25
SPEAKER_02: Well, they knew before, right?
28:27
SPEAKER_01: You'd think so.
28:28
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
28:28
SPEAKER_02: Why did they have to get to an offer?
28:30
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
28:30
SPEAKER_02: It shouldn't be about the money.
28:32
SPEAKER_02: It shouldn't be about the offer.
28:33
SPEAKER_02: It should be about, is this really what I want to do?
28:35
SPEAKER_02: Now I get it.
28:36
SPEAKER_02: You have to go in for the informational interview.
28:38
SPEAKER_02: You've got to understand what that opportunity looks like.
28:41
SPEAKER_02: But once you do, I think it's important for you to kind of take stock and say, is this really what I want to be doing?
28:47
SPEAKER_02: And if the answer is no, to your point, I've got this much invested in my current career.
28:52
SPEAKER_02: I want to stay in that field.
28:54
SPEAKER_02: Okay, now you know.
28:56
SPEAKER_02: But I don't think you have to get to the offer stage.
28:58
SPEAKER_02: I think that actually burns bridges.
29:00
SPEAKER_02: How do you feel when you make an offer and somebody says, I'm not changing careers?
29:03
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it does feel like a lot of wasted time.
29:05
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we're at the point now where we spend like a two, three hour window for a final interview where they come in, they shadow.
29:11
SPEAKER_01: And I'm at the point now because it takes time from our whole team away from their jobs, is like if they're coming in, we are conceptually yes, and they're conceptually yes.
29:21
SPEAKER_01: The goal is we confirm what we know in the in-person to move forward on both sides.
29:25
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
29:26
SPEAKER_01: But at that stage, we've known enough about each other that we feel like this is a conceptual yes.
29:30
SPEAKER_02: And they should know they want to join the industry.
29:32
SPEAKER_02: And now it's about figuring out if they want to join your firm.
29:34
SPEAKER_02: Listen, the interesting thing too is if you if you network and you believe in the power of networking, if you got good enough for a company to consider giving you an offer, that company's part of your network.
29:46
SPEAKER_02: Don't burn the bridge by going too far.
29:48
SPEAKER_02: You know, I've done this before.
29:49
SPEAKER_02: I worked for a company many, many, many years ago who um at the end of I had a summer internship and they said, Hey, we want to talk to you about coming on board.
29:58
SPEAKER_02: We'd like to fly you back to New Jersey to headquarters and interview and all that.
30:01
SPEAKER_02: And I said, Hey, I really appreciate it.
30:03
SPEAKER_02: This was an amazing internship.
30:05
SPEAKER_02: I need to think about that and I don't want to waste your time.
30:07
SPEAKER_02: And they were kind of blown away.
30:08
SPEAKER_02: And they said, Well, wait, we want to bring you back to New Jersey and have you meet the higher ups and talk about a career.
30:13
SPEAKER_02: I said, I'm thinking about a career pivot.
30:16
SPEAKER_02: I'm thinking about doing something different.
30:18
SPEAKER_02: Again, I was in college, it was an internship.
30:20
SPEAKER_02: And I decided I want to go into finance and banking and not go into consumer products.
30:25
SPEAKER_02: And this was a consumer product company, one of the best companies on the planet, by the way.
30:29
SPEAKER_02: And I didn't exercise them.
30:31
SPEAKER_02: I didn't go down that road.
30:32
SPEAKER_02: I didn't make them expend a lot of resources on my behalf because I stood back and said, Hey, I appreciate that opportunity.
30:39
SPEAKER_02: Let me evaluate it before you spend a lot of time, money, and resources on me.
30:44
SPEAKER_02: And I think they appreciated.
30:45
SPEAKER_02: And I maintained those relationships for a number of years.
30:47
SPEAKER_02: They were references of mine.
30:49
SPEAKER_01: Wow, that's amazing.
30:50
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's funny.
30:51
SPEAKER_01: We actually had an offer for a client get shut down, a really big hit for us and the client key role.
30:57
SPEAKER_01: And before they did an on-site and flew the person out, they had us confirm the conceptual yes.
31:02
SPEAKER_01: Like, are you in?
31:04
SPEAKER_01: There's a relocation involved.
31:05
SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm open.
31:06
SPEAKER_01: I've talked to my partner, like, we can do this.
31:08
SPEAKER_01: And we get to an offer, and it turns out it wasn't gonna work.
31:12
SPEAKER_02: Oh man.
31:13
SPEAKER_02: What a waste of time.
31:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it would have been better off to not see it through and just say no and save those two weeks.
31:19
SPEAKER_02: How's the company feel?
31:20
SPEAKER_01: Uh, not happy.
31:22
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
31:22
SPEAKER_02: See, that's the thing.
31:23
SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's especially if you're interviewing with a company in your industry, you have to assume that you're passing across with those people again.
31:29
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
31:30
SPEAKER_02: So step back and think about this before you exercise all those resources.
31:34
SPEAKER_02: Step back and think about what it's gonna do to your reputation.
31:38
SPEAKER_02: Your reputation will be huge.
31:39
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, they're not gonna want to hear a no from you, but if you call them and say, listen, before we get all your people set up to do a day of interviews, you fly me out, you do all this.
31:47
SPEAKER_02: I just want to be honest with you, we've decided we're not gonna be able to reload.
31:51
SPEAKER_02: And, you know, I always say no is my second favorite answer.
31:55
SPEAKER_02: It's a bummer, but it was already a no.
31:58
SPEAKER_02: Why do I need to go through all the rigor moral of getting you out here when I it's already a no?
32:02
SPEAKER_02: Don't take that deal.
32:04
SPEAKER_02: All right, this was cool.
32:06
SPEAKER_02: Reagan, what'd you learn?
32:08
SPEAKER_00: I learned that you can really create any job that you want.
32:12
SPEAKER_00: You see a gap.
32:13
SPEAKER_02: Did you also learn don't take your job advice from people on TikTok?
32:16
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
32:17
SPEAKER_01: I say don't take advice from people whose life you do you don't want.
32:21
SPEAKER_02: There you go.
32:22
SPEAKER_02: Hang out with people you want to emulate.
32:24
SPEAKER_02: Hang out with the A's, not the B's or the C's.
32:27
SPEAKER_02: You'll emulate those people.
32:29
SPEAKER_02: It'll be a little bit harder.
32:30
SPEAKER_02: You'll be running with a really great pack, and you'll have an amazing career.
32:34
SPEAKER_02: This was fun.
32:34
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
32:35
SPEAKER_01: Till next time.