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What hope does Twitch have in a TikTok world? · The Game Business Show

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SPEAKER_00: Oh,
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SPEAKER_00: you want to post a video on Instagram,
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SPEAKER_00: you can't post a video on TikTok that look at you like you have,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: plants growing out of your head or something strange,
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SPEAKER_00: because that doesn't make any sense.
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SPEAKER_00: Because it cannibalizing the gameplay, I think emphatically not.
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SPEAKER_00: I think there's, I don't think it does at all.
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SPEAKER_00: In fact,
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SPEAKER_00: I think what it ends up doing,
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SPEAKER_00: if you have an affinity for a title,
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then usually if you're watching streamers and spending time
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with that community,
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SPEAKER_00: that also will drive you to play that title more.
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SPEAKER_01: Hello and welcome to the Game Business Show with me, Christopher Dring.
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We have been in Los Angeles recording episodes of the show in
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front of a live
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SPEAKER_01: audience,
0:38
SPEAKER_01: and it was fun.
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SPEAKER_01: Despite all the chaos and protests in Los Angeles,
0:41
SPEAKER_01: over 150 people made it to our first event,
0:44
SPEAKER_01: and we're delighted.
0:45
SPEAKER_01: And every session was recorded,
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and now we're releasing them for the entire game business
0:49
audience to enjoy.
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SPEAKER_01: This session is with the CEO of Twitch,
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SPEAKER_01: Dan Clancy,
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SPEAKER_01: where we discuss the rise of TikTok monetization on Twitch,
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SPEAKER_01: whether it competes with video games,
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SPEAKER_01: Grand Theft Auto's popularity,
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SPEAKER_01: content moderation,
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SPEAKER_01: and a whole lot more.
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SPEAKER_01: So enjoy.
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SPEAKER_01: Dan Clancy, CEO of Twitch.
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SPEAKER_01: Dan Clancy, CEO of Twitch.
1:05
SPEAKER_01: Dan Clancy, CEO of Twitch.
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Dan Clancy, CEO of Twitch.
1:06
Dan Clancy, CEO of Twitch.
1:06
Dan Clancy, CEO of Twitch.
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Dan Clancy, CEO of Twitch.
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Dan Clancy, CEO of Twitch.
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SPEAKER_00: Dan Clancy, CEO of Twitch.
1:08
SPEAKER_00: Dan Clancy, CEO of Twitch.
1:09
SPEAKER_00: Dan Clancy, CEO of Twitch.
1:09
SPEAKER_00: Dan Clancy,
1:09
SPEAKER_01: where we discuss the rise of TikTok monetization on Twitch,
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SPEAKER_01: whether it competes with video games,
1:12
SPEAKER_01: whether it competes with video games,
1:12
SPEAKER_01: Grand Theft Auto's popularity,
1:13
SPEAKER_01: content moderation,
1:13
SPEAKER_00: content moderation,
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SPEAKER_00: and a whole lot more.
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SPEAKER_00: So enjoy.
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SPEAKER_01: Dan Clancy, Dan Clancy, Dan
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Last year,
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Dan,
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this sounds like a bit harsh question to ask,
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but I'll start with really.
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SPEAKER_01: You said that Twitch is not profitable.
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SPEAKER_01: How are you doing on that journey to profitability?
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SPEAKER_00: I found it funny that that was the first question.
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SPEAKER_00: Let's just get right down to making money.
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SPEAKER_00: I looked at this before.
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SPEAKER_00: Did I start with that?
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SPEAKER_00: Who put that one in?
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SPEAKER_00: No.
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SPEAKER_00: So first of all, I don't talk about where we are specifically on that.
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SPEAKER_00: I mentioned it a few years ago,
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mostly because we were restructuring some of the ways we
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thought about our overall
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SPEAKER_00: structure for streamer compensation.
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SPEAKER_00: And we were trying to evolve because I think if you go back in time,
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SPEAKER_00: we made certain decisions that probably weren't the right
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way to think about our business in terms of the long-term
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sustainability of the business.
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So I feel very good where we're at now in terms of our
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structure for streamer compensation.
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SPEAKER_00: In particular, we now have a public and well-defined program
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for um streamers to get increased rev share where we have um
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the plus program where
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you can get 70 30 or 60 40 based upon your subscriptions um i
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think being upfront
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SPEAKER_00: about that so everybody knows what to shoot for
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has been good and we're very intentional in building that
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program um where we're
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focused on those creators that um uh decided to lean into
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twitch and live streaming
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as a core part of the way they fund their lives and so we tried
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to find the right
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thresholds to do that um we now have a structured way where you
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can get 55 percent
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SPEAKER_00: add drift share um we have pulled back from this idea of um uh
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paying top streamers more than what they make on Twitch in this
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kind of competitive
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tit-for-tat where we were creating what I'll call our kind of
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non-sustainable
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SPEAKER_00: contracts.
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SPEAKER_00: So we've made a number of changes,
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SPEAKER_00: and we feel very good that we're now in a very good place in terms of the
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SPEAKER_00: structure.
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SPEAKER_00: Oh,
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SPEAKER_00: we also Prime,
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SPEAKER_00: which is a very important part of Twitch,
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SPEAKER_00: we got that into a structure that's sustainable.
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So the way I'd describe it is we feel we're in a very strong
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place,
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and I like how our...
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SPEAKER_00: you know, the business structure works.
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I'm gonna probably ask about all of those things over the
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course of this conversation.
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SPEAKER_01: But one of the things,
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SPEAKER_01: the thing that I find,
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SPEAKER_01: I'm an older person,
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SPEAKER_01: I see all the younger generations,
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SPEAKER_01: they're all on TikTok.
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SPEAKER_00: I may have you beat there, though, I'm not sure you know.
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SPEAKER_01: Well,
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we're starting to see all the people on TikTok and Google and
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the short-form video,
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SPEAKER_01: and that seems to be the trend.
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SPEAKER_01: And obviously, Twitch is not about, it's not really that.
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SPEAKER_01: I know it does a little bit.
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SPEAKER_01: How do you see Twitch's role in that sort of world?
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think it's this interesting evolution.
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SPEAKER_00: And the statement I sometimes make is that,
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SPEAKER_00: unfortunately,
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SPEAKER_00: social media now is kind of antisocial.
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SPEAKER_00: You're sitting there by yourself swiping.
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SPEAKER_00: And I think it's particularly relevant when you think about gains.
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The foundation of games actually is the social connection that
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it creates between
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SPEAKER_00: the players,
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SPEAKER_00: which is a foundational need that we have as people.
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And I know for many people who don't game don't really
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appreciate how much gaming
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SPEAKER_00: is really about social interaction and our need for community.
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SPEAKER_00: Twitch is very much about meeting that need for community.
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SPEAKER_00: We've built it so that people pull up a chair and stay for a while,
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SPEAKER_00: and through those shared experiences eventually form bonds.
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SPEAKER_00: So it is certainly the case that our media world is,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: shifting towards this,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: swipe,
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SPEAKER_00: swipe,
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SPEAKER_00: swipe,
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SPEAKER_00: swipe,
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but ultimately I actually don't think that meets what is our
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basic human need,
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SPEAKER_00: which is to connect with other human beings.
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SPEAKER_00: So I feel our focus on what I often call
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SPEAKER_00: community-centric live streaming,
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which is building that sense of belonging and connection
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through a shared passion,
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SPEAKER_00: whether that's a streamer or a game.
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SPEAKER_00: I feel good about that position,
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SPEAKER_00: even as the world is moving a little more into short,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: rewards.
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I think the basic human need is still there,
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and I think Twitch is what meets that human need.
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SPEAKER_00: That's a great answer.
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SPEAKER_01: Can I go back to something I said in the previous answer?
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Because we're seeing a growing focus on multi-streaming and the
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end of platform
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SPEAKER_01: exclusivity with creators,
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SPEAKER_01: whether,
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SPEAKER_01: you know,
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SPEAKER_01: creators are just on Twitch or just on YouTube or just on whatever.
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SPEAKER_01: How does that not make your job harder in some way?
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SPEAKER_01: Um...
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SPEAKER_00: I think if you go back in time in a world where Twitch had...
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SPEAKER_00: It wasn't just multi-streaming.
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We also had exclusivity,
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where if you were a partner,
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you could only stream on Twitch,
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okay?
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SPEAKER_00: And I think that...
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provided some degree of sort of safety but i also think it
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hindered in sort of
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leaning into expanding live streaming um what i've repeatedly
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said is if there's a
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challenge in this space i think that we are underserving the
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market in terms of
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people that i think would find live streaming compelling more
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people entering in
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SPEAKER_00: this space i think helps drive the growth of the um
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of the,
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I don't want to say market,
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because I don't think it's really a market.
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SPEAKER_00: It's really a form of expression.
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And I think that's exposing more viewers to this form of
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creative expression,
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SPEAKER_00: and then also attracting more creators.
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SPEAKER_00: So to some degree, does it make my job harder?
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SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
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I do think it forces Twitch to focus on maintaining this
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position as the best place
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SPEAKER_00: for live streaming.
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SPEAKER_00: And it doesn't use an artificial means
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SPEAKER_00: to maintain that.
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SPEAKER_00: And I do think that artificial means,
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SPEAKER_00: in any other industry,
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SPEAKER_00: people would think of it as strange.
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SPEAKER_00: If it was,
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SPEAKER_00: oh,
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SPEAKER_00: you want to post a video on Instagram,
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SPEAKER_00: you can't post a video on TikTok that look at you like you have,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: plants growing out of your head or something strange,
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SPEAKER_00: because that doesn't make any sense.
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So I actually think it was one of these things that just came
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about for lots of
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SPEAKER_00: reasons early on,
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but it really doesn't make the right sense for the creator or
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for the community.
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SPEAKER_01: Tied to that, I guess, is you're opening up monetization.
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SPEAKER_01: We talked about this.
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SPEAKER_01: You're opening up to more people.
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SPEAKER_01: You're adding new elements to it.
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Is there more you're looking to do in terms of financial
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incentives in order for
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SPEAKER_01: you to attract and retain those creators?
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SPEAKER_01: Because as I say, you're not tying them in anymore.
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Well,
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I think a big part as we think about it is,
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as we say,
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attract and retain.
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The biggest thing about retaining them is making sure they can
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continue to pursue
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SPEAKER_00: this with the time that they have and hopefully then make it a career,
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SPEAKER_00: right?
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SPEAKER_00: Which is, many people dream of doing that.
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SPEAKER_00: And so part of that is finding new ways to drive value for the creators.
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SPEAKER_00: A big part of Twitch's monetization is around patronage.
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SPEAKER_00: So subscriptions is a form of patronage.
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SPEAKER_00: Gift subscriptions is a form, a further form of patronage.
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SPEAKER_00: I think there's a whole other dimension,
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SPEAKER_00: which is small amounts of pay that just makes the stream fun,
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SPEAKER_00: okay?
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SPEAKER_00: And that's one thing that we've been,
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SPEAKER_00: we just announced in our launching Combos,
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which is an ability for more people to just give small amounts
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of money and to
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SPEAKER_00: create these kind of micro moments in a stream.
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and in particular focusing on mobile because i think a huge
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part too is to focus on
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mobile consumption patterns make it easy to kind of express
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yourself give small
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amounts of money and then have the community come together and
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so i'm pretty
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bullish on that we launched something called power ups last
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year which i think
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there's still some work there in custom power ups again with
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this idea of get more
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SPEAKER_00: people spending money and make it fun and have it impact the stream
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You seem to be putting a lot of effort into innovating in that
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sort of world.
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Almost every TwitchCon or every announcement seems to have
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something new you've
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SPEAKER_01: been developing or evolving in that space.
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SPEAKER_01: It's been interesting to see.
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SPEAKER_01: I don't really have a question there.
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SPEAKER_00: Well,
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SPEAKER_00: actually,
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SPEAKER_00: it kind of brings your two questions together because at some level,
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SPEAKER_00: as we moved away from this idea,
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SPEAKER_00: oh,
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SPEAKER_00: you're a partner,
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SPEAKER_00: you can only be on Twitch,
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It forces us to continue to think of how can we keep innovating
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in the platform.
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And I think a huge part of growing live streaming to reach more
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audience is we need
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SPEAKER_00: to keep innovating because,
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SPEAKER_00: again,
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I'll go back to I think the fundamental problem is I think we
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all have this
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SPEAKER_00: yearning or need for community,
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SPEAKER_00: not just gamers,
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SPEAKER_00: by the way.
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SPEAKER_00: Shockingly, everybody has that yearning and need.
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And I think currently live streaming doesn't reach as many
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people as it could in
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SPEAKER_00: terms of providing them some of that magic.
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Let's talk about Twitch's relationship with video games and the
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video games industry.
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SPEAKER_01: We're in this attention economy, right?
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SPEAKER_01: Where we're all competing for time.
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SPEAKER_01: And that is the world you live in.
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SPEAKER_01: That's the world a lot of the people in this room live in as well.
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SPEAKER_01: Do you see video games as a partner?
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SPEAKER_01: I know you do.
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SPEAKER_01: But do you see them more as a partner or as sort of competitors?
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, they're obviously a partner.
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SPEAKER_00: That's an easy question.
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SPEAKER_00: But I'll talk about it like this.
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SPEAKER_00: I'll call it what I'll call the in-between time.
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That,
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in fact,
10:19
usually when you're playing a video game,
10:21
you're pretty focused.
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SPEAKER_00: You start the game,
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SPEAKER_00: you're in the middle of the action,
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SPEAKER_00: you're,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: all this stuff is happening.
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SPEAKER_00: If you get pinged,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: by a friend that wants to chat for a little while or,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: your partner or your mom or say,
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SPEAKER_00: come down for dinner,
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SPEAKER_00: we're ready for the,
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SPEAKER_00: you're like,
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SPEAKER_00: you're committed, okay?
10:38
And I think Twitch filled this gap where you could maintain
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that connection.
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SPEAKER_00: And I think in the,
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SPEAKER_00: not the last panel,
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SPEAKER_00: the one before that,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: they were talking about the stories and the expressiveness and all that.
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SPEAKER_00: And of course, gaming is about, you know, stories, right?
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SPEAKER_00: And emotion and connection.
10:54
But you can't do it all the time because at times you need some
10:57
in-between time.
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SPEAKER_00: So I think it is a very symbiotic
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SPEAKER_00: situation where when you're not gaming,
11:05
you can still be engaging with a community that have an
11:08
affinity for that game.
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SPEAKER_00: It keeps that game top of mind, even as you're doing other stuff.
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SPEAKER_00: And part of the magic of Twitch,
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SPEAKER_00: I've always said,
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SPEAKER_00: is you can start it at any time,
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SPEAKER_00: you can stop it at any time,
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There isn't a narrative arc,
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so if you get distracted for a short period of time,
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that's okay.
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SPEAKER_00: You can get distracted and you can come back.
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If you're in the middle of the game,
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you can't get distracted and come back,
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okay?
11:31
SPEAKER_00: And so I think they kind of fit kind of perfectly together.
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SPEAKER_01: Well, look at some of these numbers.
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SPEAKER_01: GTA 5, 1.4 billion hours of gameplay watched on Twitch in the last year.
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SPEAKER_01: 1.19 billion hours for League of Legends,
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SPEAKER_01: 804 million for Valorant,
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SPEAKER_01: 539 million hours for Fortnite.
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SPEAKER_01: I mean, the list goes on.
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So you believe that's additional engagement in those properties
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as opposed to
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SPEAKER_01: people who are watching instead of playing.
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SPEAKER_01: It's not cannibalistic.
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SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's used the term cannibalistic.
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SPEAKER_00: Is it cannibalizing the gameplay?
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SPEAKER_00: I think emphatically not.
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SPEAKER_00: I don't think it does it at all.
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SPEAKER_00: In fact,
12:08
SPEAKER_00: I think what it ends up doing,
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SPEAKER_00: if you have an affinity for a title,
12:13
then usually if you're watching streamers and spending time
12:16
with that community,
12:16
SPEAKER_00: that also will drive you to play that title more.
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SPEAKER_00: You know, you talk about the attention economy.
12:24
SPEAKER_00: Of course,
12:24
SPEAKER_00: there's,
12:25
SPEAKER_00: you know,
12:25
SPEAKER_00: in the competition,
12:26
SPEAKER_00: there's competition with all sorts of things,
12:28
SPEAKER_00: right?
12:30
And so the more the kind of characters and the narrative in a
12:35
game stays top of
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SPEAKER_00: your attention,
12:37
whether that's because you're playing the game or you're
12:39
engaging on Twitch with
12:40
SPEAKER_00: the community as they play the game,
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SPEAKER_00: then that maintains that positive,
12:45
SPEAKER_00: you know,
12:46
SPEAKER_00: positive association with that game.
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SPEAKER_01: That 1.4 billion hours GTA 5 statistic,
12:53
SPEAKER_01: you must have been a bit disappointed that GTA 6 got delayed.
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SPEAKER_00: So I think everybody was.
13:00
SPEAKER_00: Although GTA is this interesting,
13:02
SPEAKER_00: of the different things on Twitch,
13:03
SPEAKER_00: it's funny as you go down that list,
13:06
SPEAKER_00: okay?
13:08
GTA is the one that doesn't quite fit exactly like all the
13:12
other ones that you listed.
13:14
SPEAKER_00: Of course, a big part of GTA is GTA role play.
13:19
Okay,
13:20
with something like League of Legends,
13:21
if you don't play League of Legends,
13:24
it's hard to watch league of legends for hours if you don't
13:28
play league of legends
13:29
because that's part of the magic with gta 5 what you see with
13:32
role play is it's
13:33
really has become improvisational performance art right it's i
13:37
was a theater major
13:38
undergrad and in some ways i i've i've often said there's a
13:42
theater school that
13:43
should just teach a course in gta role play where the theater
13:47
students are acting
13:48
SPEAKER_00: out characters and
13:50
and you were talking about stories before,
13:53
and you were talking about AI with stories.
13:56
SPEAKER_00: Well,
13:56
SPEAKER_00: interesting,
13:57
SPEAKER_00: part of what happens is you have this emergence stories,
14:00
SPEAKER_00: because the streamers are playing characters in this virtual world,
14:03
SPEAKER_00: and then drama ensues and stories develop,
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SPEAKER_00: and now it's not AI,
14:08
SPEAKER_00: it's real people behind those stories.
14:10
And so I find GTA V,
14:12
and role-playing in general,
14:13
but it's particularly been focused on GTA V,
14:17
SPEAKER_00: very interesting, was excited about GTA 6 because everyone's excited.
14:23
The interesting thing was it was gonna be a little strange
14:25
because whenever it does
14:27
SPEAKER_00: come out,
14:27
it's coming out on the console and role play will not be part
14:30
of the initial
14:32
SPEAKER_00: launch.
14:32
SPEAKER_00: And so, GTA 5 will still interestingly
14:37
SPEAKER_00: be popular on Twitch even as everyone's playing GTA 6 for a while.
14:40
So I will find the whole GTA space very interesting as 6 comes
14:44
out and then as it
14:46
SPEAKER_00: adds PC play and role play.
14:50
SPEAKER_01: I love a statistic.
14:51
SPEAKER_01: That'll be interesting to follow.
14:53
SPEAKER_01: Let's get that statistic.
14:55
SPEAKER_01: He's on the edge of his seat.
14:57
SPEAKER_01: One thing I had to learn for this interview is the world of VTubers.
15:04
Can you talk us through what you're seeing there and how that
15:07
could mean for game companies?
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so VTubing is this, and for those who haven't experienced it,
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You know,
15:16
streamers,
15:16
a lot of times,
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they're a creator,
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they're expressive,
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okay?
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But not everybody wants to be themselves on stream and put
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themselves out there for
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SPEAKER_00: various reasons,
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SPEAKER_00: okay?
15:29
SPEAKER_00: And the kind of VTubing has allowed so many more people
15:33
SPEAKER_00: to express themselves creatively.
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SPEAKER_00: And a VTuber is really,
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SPEAKER_00: it's just a virtual version of somebody,
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SPEAKER_00: but now you're playing a character.
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SPEAKER_00: This, interestingly, relates to GTA Roleplay, right?
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SPEAKER_00: In GTA Roleplay, you're playing a character, okay?
15:49
SPEAKER_00: In VTubing, you're playing a character.
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SPEAKER_00: Oftentimes, it may be a caricature of yourself,
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One thing that I found interesting is I think sometimes when I
15:58
talk to VTubers and
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SPEAKER_00: I meet them and get to know them better,
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it's like their VTube character is this version of themselves
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that they can't fully
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live out in their life because of the expectations that the
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world have on us,
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SPEAKER_00: right?
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SPEAKER_00: Because we all conform,
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SPEAKER_00: and especially as we're getting older,
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SPEAKER_00: we worry about what does everyone...
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SPEAKER_00: think of us,
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SPEAKER_00: okay,
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and now you can just kind of be your authentic true self
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because you're not out
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SPEAKER_00: there publicly.
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SPEAKER_00: And so this has become very popular, and of course, VTubers do,
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SPEAKER_00: whatever anyone else does, okay?
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SPEAKER_00: And so there's almost like this synergy and this merging of the worlds,
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SPEAKER_00: because it is a virtual animated character,
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SPEAKER_00: okay?
16:40
SPEAKER_00: And I think over time it'll be interesting.
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SPEAKER_00: One thing that I'll find interesting is when what I'll call
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SPEAKER_00: I don't normally use this.
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SPEAKER_00: I'll call them normative streamers.
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SPEAKER_00: I don't know what a non-VTuber streamer you'd describe.
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SPEAKER_00: Okay, but I'll use normative streamers.
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SPEAKER_00: As they start creating VTuber characters,
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of themselves that sometimes,
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so you know,
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some streamers like CodeMiko is like this,
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right?
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SPEAKER_00: She streams as herself sometimes,
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SPEAKER_00: sometimes she's a VTuber character,
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SPEAKER_00: and there really is this synergy.
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SPEAKER_00: And I think that'll be interesting as more and more is,
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SPEAKER_00: as the technology makes it much easier to create a VTubing character,
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SPEAKER_00: especially a 3D model,
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SPEAKER_00: because the technology is still a little imposing,
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more and more I think streamers will adopt this idea of a
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VTuber as an alternative
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SPEAKER_00: version of themselves.
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SPEAKER_01: It seems... I think there's a VTuber in the new Death Stranding game.
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SPEAKER_01: I don't think it's one of yours.
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SPEAKER_01: It might be from a different platform.
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SPEAKER_01: Okay.
17:44
SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's... I don't know.
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SPEAKER_01: I don't have an opinion or point on that.
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SPEAKER_01: Other than that's interesting.
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SPEAKER_00: Well, the thing with VTubers is the VTuber character is IP.
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SPEAKER_00: I know from talking to various VTubers,
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they've also been talking about anime shows that might be based
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upon their VTuber
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SPEAKER_00: character.
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SPEAKER_00: And when you take this concept of IP,
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SPEAKER_00: of which games are the foundation of games,
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SPEAKER_00: and now the IP becomes the individual
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SPEAKER_00: where the VTuber character now can go into a game.
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SPEAKER_00: It can go into a TV show.
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SPEAKER_00: It can interact with other VTube characters.
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SPEAKER_00: And I think one of the interesting things,
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this is one reason why I think some streamers will create VTube
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versions of
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SPEAKER_00: themselves,
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SPEAKER_00: is some streamers,
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SPEAKER_00: they are in effect IP.
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SPEAKER_00: Kai Sinat is IP.
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SPEAKER_00: He's a personality.
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SPEAKER_00: He's a caricature that he creates,
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SPEAKER_00: not unlike Kevin Hart is in some ways IP,
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SPEAKER_00: but in a traditional movie role.
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SPEAKER_00: An actor, interestingly, Meryl Streep is a wonderful actress.
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But her as a person is not IP because she's always playing
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someone different.
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SPEAKER_00: Whereas you think of,
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SPEAKER_00: you know,
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SPEAKER_00: streamers,
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SPEAKER_00: they are IP where their character can then exist in different mediums.
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SPEAKER_00: So I think it's very interesting.
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SPEAKER_00: I think more and more you'll see this merging of these things.
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SPEAKER_01: Shift chat tacked from VTubers.
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SPEAKER_01: We've been seeing some other,
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SPEAKER_01: I won't name them,
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but some other social channels cut back on moderation in some
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ways or be a little
19:16
bit less strict on banning people or taking down content that
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some might find
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SPEAKER_01: offensive.
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It's a very sensitive subject and it's a very politicised
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conversation at the moment.
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SPEAKER_01: And it's difficult to know where the right approach is.
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SPEAKER_01: I mean, we all have those debates.
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SPEAKER_01: What is Twitch's position with all of this?
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SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00: We haven't really changed much, or I can almost go to say much at all.
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SPEAKER_00: Now,
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one reason is we didn't sort of correct in the past in terms of
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what our policies
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SPEAKER_00: were,
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because you really saw this movement in society in terms of
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what was allowed and
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SPEAKER_00: what not.
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SPEAKER_00: Twitch cares a lot about how you say things.
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SPEAKER_00: that in fact certain things are very clear and appropriate.
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You know,
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spewing hate and harassment at individual groups or individuals
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is not allowed.
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SPEAKER_00: We maintain fairly consistent in how you say things.
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SPEAKER_00: Expressing your views,
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SPEAKER_00: as long as it's not expressing hate and harassment,
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SPEAKER_00: is you expressing your views.
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SPEAKER_00: Now,
20:18
SPEAKER_00: one of the things that's allowed us to do this is we don't have,
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SPEAKER_00: we aren't a platform where people spread virally.
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One of the biggest challenge with some of the moderation
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principles deals with
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somebody says something and it virally spreads through other
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platforms where
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somebody shares it and somebody shares it and someone shares it
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and now what
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SPEAKER_00: they're saying is being broadened.
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SPEAKER_00: With Twitch, the people there, the people that are there listening.
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And so we still have very clear our kind of community
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guidelines because we do care
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SPEAKER_00: deeply about people not listening.
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SPEAKER_00: spewing hate,
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SPEAKER_00: harassment,
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SPEAKER_00: and other things,
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SPEAKER_00: and attacking protected classes or other groups or individuals.
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But we haven't had to really change much as other winds have
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changed for other
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SPEAKER_00: social media platforms.
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SPEAKER_01: Okay.
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What do you see as the other key trends in live streaming that
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the video game
21:14
SPEAKER_01: industry should be aware of?
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SPEAKER_00: So, I'm just gonna go and think about this.
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SPEAKER_00: I think...
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SPEAKER_00: One of the interesting things that I've seen,
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SPEAKER_00: and I don't have detailed numbers on this,
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SPEAKER_00: but I do think it's relevant for this.
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SPEAKER_00: I see a lot more rise of variety streamers.
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SPEAKER_00: If you go back in time,
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SPEAKER_00: you had a streamer,
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SPEAKER_00: and the top streamers,
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SPEAKER_00: they were often associated with one game.
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SPEAKER_00: Okay,
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Ninja when Fortnite took off or Nick Merckx with Apex and that
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was their game and
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SPEAKER_00: they played that game all the time.
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SPEAKER_00: As you think of our top streamers now,
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SPEAKER_00: as you think of Kai,
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SPEAKER_00: Kai games over 50% of the time,
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SPEAKER_00: but he played Elden Ring for a thing,
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SPEAKER_00: he played other games.
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SPEAKER_00: K-So is always moving around playing different games.
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SPEAKER_00: If you look at FaZe Clan, they play...
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Lot of different games in and kind of the list goes on right
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and so in some ways I
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think that is Good for the video game industry because as you
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have these who are
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really entertainers Exploring different games and playing
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different games that kind
22:17
of moves with the flow Especially as you have so much
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interesting content coming
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SPEAKER_00: out because now you don't have such a tight association of
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SPEAKER_00: with just one game that one creator spends all their time with.
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SPEAKER_00: And it also creates,
22:33
SPEAKER_00: you know,
22:33
one of the challenges that happens a lot to streamers was if
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they played one video
22:37
SPEAKER_00: game all the time,
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SPEAKER_00: and then they wanted to do something different.
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they would see their viewership drop because some of the
22:45
affinity with just with the game.
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And the more they kind of play a variety of games,
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the more they can maintain that community.
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SPEAKER_00: And I actually think that's better for them.
22:55
SPEAKER_00: A lot of times people talk about streamer burnout.
22:59
And I think one of the problems was you're burned out playing
23:02
this one game because
23:03
SPEAKER_00: you keep playing it and you want to explore other games,
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SPEAKER_00: but you feel like you can't because your viewership will go down.
23:09
SPEAKER_00: So I think right now you see a lot more diversity of gameplay,
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SPEAKER_00: which will be good because it allows,
23:14
SPEAKER_00: as games grow,
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it allows that reinforcement that occurs on Twitch as more
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people play the game.
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SPEAKER_01: Probably helps a little bit of our discoverability challenges as well.
23:23
SPEAKER_01: On the flip side to that,
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are there areas of Twitch or live streaming in general that
23:27
don't work as well in
23:29
SPEAKER_01: 2025 as perhaps they used to?
23:33
SPEAKER_00: Well,
23:33
SPEAKER_00: I'll take this more generally because I think what we're seeing,
23:37
SPEAKER_00: and it's interesting,
23:38
SPEAKER_00: you were talking about mobile with Diablo,
23:40
SPEAKER_00: right?
23:41
SPEAKER_00: And one of the thoughts as I was saying that,
23:43
I wonder if you looked at the responses in their community when
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they first came out
23:48
SPEAKER_00: of the under 25 players versus the over 25 players.
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I do think,
23:54
in your earlier panel,
23:55
we were talking about people growing up with a phone.
23:59
And I do think the expectations are evolving in this space as
24:04
you think of people
24:05
that had a phone in their hands when they were 13 and how
24:08
central that device is to
24:09
SPEAKER_00: their life.
24:10
SPEAKER_00: With Twitch, I think the kind of core Twitch user is a PC gamer.
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SPEAKER_00: They have a big monitor in their bedroom.
24:19
SPEAKER_00: They spend a lot of time in that space.
24:21
Okay,
24:22
that's of course good for all the PC game companies because
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that builds that habit.
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SPEAKER_00: We see more and more users engaging on a mobile device.
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And on the desktop,
24:34
if they get distracted for a little while,
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the stream is still going.
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If you're on your phone and you get distracted and go off and
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do something else,
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SPEAKER_00: well now we have to get you back.
24:44
right to get you so i think that created forces us to think
24:47
more about the mobile
24:49
experience and um because desktop is you know we sort of grew
24:53
up in this symbiosis
24:54
between pc gaming twitch it's sort of all fit together right
25:00
and i think now that
25:00
just causes us to continue to think about how we maintain those
25:03
touch points and
25:04
SPEAKER_00: build
25:06
SPEAKER_00: the community.
25:06
SPEAKER_00: I think that is true as gaming companies think.
25:10
SPEAKER_00: And I mentioned age.
25:11
SPEAKER_00: You know,
25:11
SPEAKER_00: we made a change to our mobile app that was a little more,
25:16
SPEAKER_00: you know,
25:16
SPEAKER_00: I'll just call modern with many apps.
25:19
SPEAKER_00: And various members of the community were unhappy with it initially.
25:23
SPEAKER_00: And I had this one rough model,
25:26
SPEAKER_00: and I was standing in a group of 30 streamers,
25:29
SPEAKER_00: and I said,
25:29
SPEAKER_00: well,
25:29
SPEAKER_00: the generally rough model is if you're under 25,
25:32
SPEAKER_00: you like the new mobile app,
25:33
SPEAKER_00: and if you're over 25,
25:34
SPEAKER_00: don't.
25:35
And there was a 24-year-old woman who said,
25:38
well,
25:38
I'm 24 and I really like the new mobile app.
25:40
And then there was a man who says,
25:43
well,
25:43
I'm 33 and I don't like the mobile app.
25:45
SPEAKER_00: And of course, that's not really what it is.
25:48
SPEAKER_00: But it is important,
25:49
SPEAKER_00: I think,
25:49
SPEAKER_00: for all of us to realize,
25:51
SPEAKER_00: you know,
25:53
SPEAKER_00: the world has changed with the advent of the mobile phone,
25:55
especially with people that grew up from when they were 13 with
25:59
a mobile phone in
26:00
SPEAKER_00: their hand.
26:01
We haven't really spoken and we're running out of time now
26:04
about how the fact that
26:05
SPEAKER_01: you really go into those communities,
26:06
SPEAKER_01: aren't you?
26:07
And literally surround yourself with these streamers to hear
26:11
what they do.
26:11
SPEAKER_01: I think that's quite a terrifying thing to undertake.
26:15
SPEAKER_01: I guess it's important in terms of trying to work out the way forward.
26:18
SPEAKER_01: But I'll actually ask one more question that wasn't about that.
26:21
SPEAKER_01: It's a general question to finish on.
26:22
But what do you see as the growth opportunities for video game
26:25
companies and
26:26
SPEAKER_01: developers on Twitch today?
26:28
Yeah,
26:29
you know,
26:29
it's interesting,
26:30
earlier you talked about innovation,
26:33
right?
26:33
SPEAKER_00: And I think there's a lot of creativity in the video game space,
26:39
but I think what all of them are trying to do is innovate as
26:41
they start creating
26:42
SPEAKER_00: new game dynamics and new expressions.
26:44
And I think similarly,
26:47
you want to innovate in how you bring your games to market.
26:50
SPEAKER_00: And,
26:52
SPEAKER_00: you know,
26:52
Twitch has always been a key partner to the game industry in
26:55
thinking about how
26:56
SPEAKER_00: they bring their games to market.
26:59
SPEAKER_00: and I think it is this dual innovation.
27:01
You have to innovate in the gameplay and then innovate in sort
27:05
of you build a great game.
27:06
How am I going to bring this to market and what can I do to get
27:10
Twitch streamers
27:11
SPEAKER_00: maintaining that momentum and growing that momentum.
27:14
SPEAKER_00: And you see certain games doing exceptionally well.
27:16
Marvel Rivals is a great example,
27:18
whereas it was taking off,
27:19
lots of streamers were playing it.
27:21
SPEAKER_00: Of course, Valorant did a wonderful job with that.
27:24
SPEAKER_00: And so it's something that we're constantly also thinking about,
27:27
how can we work with game publishers to help them as they bring
27:31
their IP to market
27:32
to help get it in the hands of our creators and get more people
27:35
playing it.
27:36
SPEAKER_01: Brilliant.
27:37
SPEAKER_01: Now, our time is up.
27:38
SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Dan.
27:39
SPEAKER_01: Give me a warm hand, don't we?
27:44
SPEAKER_01: That's it for today's episode of the Game Business Show.
27:46
SPEAKER_01: Stay tuned for more live versions of our interviews in the days to come.
27:50
SPEAKER_01: Until then, thank you for tuning in.