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Privacy Careers in a World of AI E162 · The FIT4Privacy Podcast | Exploring ISO Standards AI Privacy | Grow Skills Store

• 0:00
  I use Chat GPTI use Gemini. I use others as well.
• 0:05
  And I look and it says, oh, they're searching 3040 sixty
• 0:09
  websites and it's gathering all that information.
• 0:12
  Now a lot of that information could well be misinformation.
• 0:18
  So So what do you believe? You know, yes, it might give you
• 0:21
  something, it might write a policy for you, but is it really
• 0:25
  right? Privacy should be fun from my
• 0:28
  point of view. Yeah.
• 0:30
  If you talk about privacy to lots of companies out there, it
• 0:34
  goes over their head. They've rolled their eyes,
• 0:36
  they're not interested. But how can we make it
• 0:39
  interesting both for people coming into the industry so they
• 0:43
  can see this is a great career, this is fun, You know, I can
• 0:47
  have passion for this. Hi, my name is Punit Bhatia and
• 0:50
  you're listening to Fit for Privacy podcast where AI meets
• 0:53
  privacy. This is not legal advice.
• 0:56
  Thanks for listening. What do you do at the end of
• 1:00
  your privacy career? Sometimes when you retire, what
• 1:04
  do you do? And if you've been a privacy
• 1:06
  professional, do you leave privacy or maybe you stay in
• 1:10
  touch with privacy? But more importantly, what is
• 1:13
  your view on AI and the privacy field in view of the AI?
• 1:18
  And more importantly, what advice would you give to someone
• 1:21
  who's looking to start a career in privacy?
• 1:24
  But all this and more with Barry Mould in the Fit for Privacy
• 1:27
  podcast episode today. And before we start, take a look
• 1:31
  at gross skills dot store for your training needs and take
• 1:34
  advantage of ISO trainings. Today we have Barry Mould.
• 1:37
  So Barry, welcome to Fit for Privacy in a different avatar.
• 1:42
  No, thank you for having me. I think I've done one before for
• 1:45
  you some time ago. Yes, you have.
• 1:48
  And then you were working and now I know you're retired.
• 1:51
  So congratulations for that. How is for privacy person?
• 1:56
  Well, my my wife has just left the room because if I say I'm
• 2:00
  retired, she gives me that look that says really?
• 2:08
  OK, that's in one word says everything.
• 2:12
  Well, well, yes, I, I think, yeah, I, I have retired and if I
• 2:15
  can put it in some context, I've retired.
• 2:18
  I don't have day-to-day responsibility for clients.
• 2:22
  Now you would know and maybe some of your listeners may know.
• 2:25
  I work with another colleague and she has taken all the
• 2:29
  responsibility to her that her team has grown from just me and
• 2:33
  her four years ago. She's now got a team of 15, so
• 2:37
  the work has grown. So she has now got all that
• 2:40
  responsibility and the team deliver that privacy.
• 2:45
  So I don't have any day-to-day responsibility, which is good.
• 2:49
  Yeah, but I'm curious to ask you, so do you still when you go
• 2:53
  to a website look at is this privacy compliant?
• 2:57
  Do they have a notice? Do you have, do they have the
• 2:59
  spooky notice? Do you still?
• 3:03
  Do that. Oh yes.
• 3:04
  Do you know what? There are some things that you
• 3:06
  just can't seem to. I can't seem to let go.
• 3:09
  And you're absolutely right. And I probably can say that even
• 3:13
  today I've done that. I do it all the time.
• 3:17
  So where I've just moved house to another part of the UK and
• 3:23
  I'm in a new town and even looking at the GP practises that
• 3:28
  you know, the GP practise I'm at, but also looking at other
• 3:32
  things. So I'm driving into town and I
• 3:34
  see a shop front and it's got the name of a medical company.
• 3:39
  I've never heard of them before. So when I get back home, what do
• 3:42
  I do? I go and have a look at the
• 3:45
  website and I do look. Oh, they haven't got a cookie
• 3:49
  banner. Oh, their privacy notice.
• 3:51
  Well, it's more about cookies than about privacy notice about
• 3:55
  their patient data. So yes, I still do.
• 4:00
  And do you tell your children and grandchildren to be aware of
• 4:03
  privacy or not that? Yeah, yes, I do, simply because
• 4:07
  we've moved. We're in the bottom of their
• 4:09
  garden and I see them not every day, but I see them quite often
• 4:14
  throughout the week. And there are things I say
• 4:17
  because they they're on their iPads, they are on their phones
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  and you know, I have to tell them at times to be careful.
• 4:24
  Now, I think one good thing is because my daughter and
• 4:28
  son-in-law know what work I'm in, they do have controls on the
• 4:33
  children's iPads and on their their phones.
• 4:36
  But you know, I do say to them, you know, just be careful.
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  And certainly in the days we live in, there's, you know, been
• 4:42
  lots of grooming of children. You know, don't ever trust
• 4:47
  people unless you know them. Not saying don't trust them, but
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  you know, be careful about trusting people if you don't
• 4:52
  know them. Absolutely.
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  I think that's very important, especially with this AI thing
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  coming up. You never know on Instagram or
• 5:01
  YouTube or anywhere if that video is real, if you said it,
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  if the news is real, it's a nightmare.
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  I don't know. How do you find it in your your
• 5:12
  time now in terms of privacy also?
• 5:16
  Well, I think you're absolutely right with with children because
• 5:20
  you just do not know. You know, is it, is it real?
• 5:22
  Is it not real? I'll be really honest.
• 5:25
  I, I, I've, I've used AI and I haven't done it to you, but you
• 5:30
  know, in Christmas I, I said to, oh, can you put my friend Andrew
• 5:35
  in an elf uniform or can you put him in a Santa uniform?
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  You know, and it looks real. You, you just don't know the
• 5:45
  difference. He wasn't in it.
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  I just asked AI to do it. And therefore you look and you
• 5:50
  think, is this for real? And you, you've got to warn
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  children about that. But I think there is a bigger
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  thing for us working in privacy about what is real and what
• 6:02
  isn't real. And, and I, I think with AI,
• 6:06
  there's lots of things out there.
• 6:09
  AI looks at, you know, and I, I, I use Chat GPTI use Gemini.
• 6:15
  I use others as well. And I look and it says, oh,
• 6:19
  they're searching 3040 sixty websites and it's gathering all
• 6:24
  that information. Now, a lot of that information
• 6:27
  could well be misinformation. So, So what do you believe?
• 6:33
  You know, yes, it might give you something.
• 6:35
  It might write a policy for you, but is it really right or is it
• 6:39
  brought in misinformation? I I, I, I like AI, but I think
• 6:45
  it also has it's it's challenges as well.
• 6:48
  Yeah, for me, it's like people when 20 years ago you will hire
• 6:53
  a student or a fresher from the college, have them in and they
• 6:58
  do some fantastic work. And it seems like, wow, you used
• 7:01
  to ask them how did you get it? What did you do?
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  What was the process? Where did you get this
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  information? And when you were satisfied with
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  all the things, of course, sometimes you'll say no, go back
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  and do this. And finally, even when the
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  date's final, you would go back and do a little bit of cross
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  check. Is this right?
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  Is the source mentioned? Is the source genuine, becoming
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  more important even though there's no person?
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  There's AI and you think I did my job in 5 minutes?
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  No, you still need to take that two hours of QA and the review
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  and sanity check and make it proper.
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  And if you don't find the sources, if you don't find it
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  appropriate, if you don't find it enough quality or a bit too
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  good to be true, then don't use it.
• 7:46
  That's really interesting because my son now is, he's a
• 7:50
  consultant anaesthetist, but many years ago when I think he
• 7:55
  was in the university, when he was home in the summer, he used
• 7:58
  to work for a medical writer. You know, these people who, if
• 8:02
  you have a, a pack of tablets, there's lots of information
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  about the tablets. You know, lots of, you know,
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  almost like bigger than the terms of references that you
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  sometimes get. And part of his job was to try
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  and look at what was been said before, what have people written
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  in in papers, in magazines and, you know, medical journals and
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  used to bring a lot of information from that.
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  And he would then give it to the medical writer who would then
• 8:33
  take that information and write those big leaflets.
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  And so but you couldn't take everything even then at face
• 8:41
  value. You know, the medical writer,
• 8:43
  the expert would have to go through it and say, well, is
• 8:47
  this right? Is this true?
• 8:48
  Can I check this and make sure it's right?
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  So yeah, you're absolutely right.
• 8:52
  And I think the same applies all these years on even more.
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  I think even more now. Yeah, this.
• 9:01
  Thing is so bloody quick that you ask a question, in about one
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  minute you have the answer. Sometimes you can ask write me a
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  procedure or a process or a policy and it seems so real damn
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  good. But then you don't want that
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  it's copied from 5 websites and it's not real one.
• 9:18
  That's the. Yeah, I think kind of, I just
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  want to re emphasise, I, I think there is some good in AI now I
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  work, I've worked in the medical profession now using AI for
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  diagnostic purposes and those sort of things.
• 9:34
  Yeah, it needs to be refined, but there's already some good
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  work being done and I think it will help in patient treatments
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  going forward. But again, there's still needs
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  as far as I'm concerned, a pair of eyes.
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  I don't think we'll hopefully we will not get away from that.
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  So it still needs people, whether they are doctors or
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  people like us working in privacy.
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  Make sure that, as you say, that's been collected together
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  in one minute, that somebody looks at it to make sure it's
• 10:02
  correct. Absolutely.
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  And I think the way forward is AI and human combined, not AI
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  only or just AI. Yeah, absolutely.
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  Yeah. With that, I'm tempted to ask
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  you now, with so much of wealth of knowledge and experience that
• 10:19
  you have gathered over the years, do you somehow pass that
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  on or take time to volunteer something to say, coach, guide
• 10:27
  people or help them shape their careers?
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  Coaching. Yeah, I, I'd like to think I do.
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  And I, I almost want to say that almost every day I might get an
• 10:39
  e-mail or a phone call or a text message from people I've known
• 10:43
  from many years who say, oh, Barry, can I just ask or do you
• 10:47
  mind if I ask? And they will ask me, you know,
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  for, for my advice. Now, don't forget, it isn't
• 10:54
  legal advice. I'm not a lawyer, but I'm just
• 10:57
  giving advice. And I say to him, this is what I
• 11:00
  call making decisions, getting information that informs then to
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  make a decision. And yeah, I get that today.
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  I've had a visitor today, somebody who again, is in the
• 11:14
  medical profession but wants, wants me to be their mentor.
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  And he came to see me today. And we're, we're going to do,
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  we're, we're speaking at a conference that he is part of in
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  February, but he says, look, I don't have the experience,
• 11:30
  Barry, you do. And how can I, how can I help
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  him? So the answer is yes, but there
• 11:36
  are quite a few other things as well, if I can say so Hey, I'm,
• 11:42
  I'm retired. Who is coming in behind me?
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  Who, where are these IG data protection privacy people?
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  We need to bring them in. There needs to be good training
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  for them. And so, you know, maybe you
• 11:57
  know, or maybe some of your listeners might know that in the
• 12:00
  UK we have apprenticeships. We have apprenticeships for
• 12:04
  almost everything from brick layers to electricians to
• 12:08
  plumbers. And there is even
• 12:11
  apprenticeships for lawyers and for cybersecurity, but there
• 12:14
  wasn't one for data protection. So a few years ago, maybe 4/4
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  and 1/2 years ago initiated can we get an apprenticeship for
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  data protection. And we're a bit of hard work and
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  lots of other people contributing, some really,
• 12:32
  really excellent people. We managed to get that.
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  And there is now this apprenticeship for data
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  protection. So that is one good thing.
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  And I think the other thing is that that apprenticeship, I'm a
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  governor for one of those training companies.
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  In other words, I, I help them to make decisions about the
• 12:56
  delivery of that apprenticeship. So in my retirement, I've still
• 13:00
  got some things to do, the mentoring that we've mentioned,
• 13:05
  I still do quite a bit of that. And I'm also an advisor to my
• 13:10
  colleague Tanya, who I've mentioned no day-to-day
• 13:14
  responsibility, but they will come to me and say, Barry,
• 13:18
  external advice as our advisor. Does this look right?
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  Is this a good direction in which to go?
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  And then I'm going to have to. And the reason I wanted to
• 13:30
  before we started, I like to help people.
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  Privacy should be fun. From my point of view, if you
• 13:40
  talk about privacy to lots of companies out there, it goes
• 13:45
  over their head. They roll their their eyes,
• 13:47
  they're not interested. But how can we make it
• 13:50
  interesting both for people coming into the industry so they
• 13:55
  can see this is a great career, this is fun.
• 13:59
  This, this, this is, you know, I can have passion for this, but
• 14:03
  how can we do that? So you may know, and you will
• 14:05
  have seen on LinkedIn that from things I've posted in LinkedIn
• 14:10
  over the years, I put it all together and produced a book.
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  And here it is making data protection and information
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  governance fun. And I want to make it fun.
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  So when people are doing training, you know, if you're
• 14:30
  just going to do a PowerPoint presentation, it's going to be
• 14:33
  death by PowerPoint. And we said that 20 years ago.
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  What can we do to make it interesting?
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  I don't know if about UPN. I don't know if you are a, a, a
• 14:46
  pop star enthusiast, you listen to pop songs.
• 14:51
  I'm not particularly. But if I was to say, let's take
• 14:56
  the legal basis, GDPR legal basis, the six.
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  Can we think of a pop song that go with the first one consent?
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  Can we think of a pop song that would go with contracts and then
• 15:11
  vital interest and so on? So do that take the principles,
• 15:16
  you know, lawful, fair and transparent.
• 15:19
  Can we think of a film that would would meet that sort of,
• 15:25
  you know, first principle? Can we think of, you know,
• 15:30
  accountability, the seven principle?
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  Can we think of a film that might with a title that would
• 15:37
  it's just making it fun so that, you know, an icebreaker at the
• 15:41
  beginning. Let's think of these 7
• 15:43
  principles. Let's think of what film we can
• 15:45
  tie to it. Wow, definition of fun.
• 15:54
  When I do it for my clients, what I was doing was I would say
• 15:58
  no introduction to privacy, but I will take 20 questions in
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  their day life and ask them how would they do it?
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  Sometimes an open book, meaning you type or sometimes giving
• 16:09
  them options. And when they've chosen, it's
• 16:11
  typical that people will choose 1234 in not equal distribution,
• 16:17
  but in some distribution and then give them feedback saying
• 16:20
  why is it right, Why this one is right, why this one is wrong,
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  and why this one is even more wrong.
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  And this one can be right, but it's not as right as this one.
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  And give them so far after every question and then make it
• 16:32
  gamification. So every question it gives them
• 16:36
  points. And then we say this person is
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  leading. And then we say this is your
• 16:40
  privacy champion in this your department, he's the good guy,
• 16:44
  go to him and ask questions. But now you have some
• 16:47
  information. So rather than explaining them 7
• 16:49
  principles or the legal basis or consent and everything, we say,
• 16:54
  OK, these are the 10 situations. And in each situation, this is
• 16:57
  the question, this is the question, or one or two.
• 17:00
  So that's what we've done. But the idea of making it fun in
• 17:03
  terms of a movie or a song, that's even more interesting.
• 17:07
  I'll see if I can find that. But I'm not a enthusiast or a
• 17:11
  very I don't have a backlog or memory of long list of movies in
• 17:16
  my head. So I'll need to rely on that GPT
• 17:18
  and perplexity. Yes, I was going to say you
• 17:21
  don't have to. You can go to that.
• 17:23
  And I put those on Linkedins over the years and you know,
• 17:27
  other people are combined and said, oh, this, this film would
• 17:30
  be better. And I don't disagree with them,
• 17:32
  but there's not one that's better, but there are a number
• 17:35
  that you could linked with each one.
• 17:37
  So yeah, it's a good, it's a good way, yeah.
• 17:40
  But congratulations for your book as well.
• 17:42
  And by the way, we had Tanya a few weeks ago in our podcast as
• 17:45
  well, thanks to your recommendation in the last year,
• 17:49
  but it took time for us to finalise and get a common slot.
• 17:54
  So that was fun. But when you talk about coaching
• 17:56
  or guiding people or bringing people into the mainstream
• 17:59
  privacy or the privacy career, there are two types of people
• 18:03
  usually aiming to come into privacy.
• 18:05
  One where youngsters were looking for it, they'd want to
• 18:08
  see what do I do? And is privacy a career for me?
• 18:11
  And second, are they have done something maybe they've done
• 18:15
  10/15/20 years of experience and they're thinking of, I think
• 18:18
  privacy sounds interesting. So that's more the calling
• 18:21
  problem. And then we say I want to go
• 18:24
  there. So what would you invite to both
• 18:26
  Gentry or both kind of people and say, how do you start?
• 18:31
  Where do you start? How do you go about it?
• 18:33
  So I I think so the the young man, so young man, he's younger
• 18:37
  than me. The man who came to see me
• 18:39
  today, he comes from a medical background.
• 18:42
  He wants to transition from that.
• 18:44
  He, he has a big interest in privacy.
• 18:46
  So he wants to think it. So he's already got an interest
• 18:49
  and he's already looking at and he's, he's doing, he's doing
• 18:53
  Tanya's course, beat the BCS course.
• 18:58
  But you know, he's, he's trying to pick up, he's following the
• 19:01
  good people on LinkedIn and he's linked with other people even
• 19:06
  outside of LinkedIn by recommendation.
• 19:08
  So that's one way of doing it. He's still working to got his
• 19:12
  job, but he's looking that over time he might transition into
• 19:17
  privacy. So that's that's one way.
• 19:20
  But you do have other people who you know, say, well, I don't
• 19:23
  know what to do. Some people think cybersecurity
• 19:27
  is a big issue. So they think, oh,
• 19:30
  cybersecurity, but they find they're not as technical as they
• 19:34
  should be or ought to be or might need to be to go into to
• 19:38
  cybersecurity. So they say.
• 19:39
  But I have an interest and what we do and what you do and I do
• 19:43
  in privacy links to cybersecurity.
• 19:47
  You know, we can't ignore it. It is part of what we do, but
• 19:52
  we're not. I'm not, I don't know about you,
• 19:54
  but I'm not technical in that sense.
• 19:57
  I know a few things, but I'm not technical.
• 19:59
  So I would say, well, look, that's not for you.
• 20:02
  Maybe what we do, the privacy, you've got to have a bit of
• 20:05
  knowledge. But then there is the wider you
• 20:08
  know, whether it's GDPR, the Data Protection Act, the Privacy
• 20:11
  Electronic Communications Act. Or even, you know, legislation
• 20:16
  from other nations, whether in Europe or whether it's HIPPA in
• 20:20
  America, you know, wherever it might be.
• 20:23
  So, you know, if there's an interest in that, I, I would
• 20:27
  want to encourage them find a good course to go, whether
• 20:33
  that's ABCS course, whether that's AIAP course, you know,
• 20:38
  those sort of things. But also find a mentor who can
• 20:44
  help them and encourage them, point them in the right
• 20:46
  direction. But I think the other important
• 20:49
  thing for me would be being part of a good network, good people
• 20:57
  who, yeah, whether it's at a conference, whether it's, you
• 21:01
  know, just a local network, but being part of a network where
• 21:05
  you can bounce things off people.
• 21:08
  So if you're not sure about something, who can I go to?
• 21:11
  Well, I know I can go to Punit. I can ask him mate.
• 21:13
  Hey mate, can you help me? I've got a problem.
• 21:16
  What would you do? And then, you know, you get that
• 21:19
  informed decision making. So that's what I would encourage
• 21:23
  people to do. Have a look at it, find people
• 21:26
  who are working in it and see what they do.
• 21:29
  How did they get into it and what what's inspired them to see
• 21:33
  it as a career? Absolutely.
• 21:36
  I think that's the right approach because few weeks back
• 21:39
  one of my friends called me from MBA saying, hey, I'm looking to
• 21:43
  switch my career and I think cybersecurity is hot field and I
• 21:46
  want to go there. And I said, hey man, that's a
• 21:48
  wonderful idea, but and he was thinking of becoming a
• 21:53
  cybersecurity specialist. I said don't compete against the
• 21:55
  2025 year olds who are so good technically know how to use AI
• 22:00
  And then in cybersecurity you're always going to be starting
• 22:03
  afresh. Instead leverage all your
• 22:05
  experience, project management, programme management and all
• 22:08
  other experience of 20 years and do something like an ISO 27,001
• 22:13
  auditor lead auditor course. Yes.
• 22:16
  Then you are not. You understand it.
• 22:19
  Like you said, you and me are not technical, but we understand
• 22:22
  things in cyber security. We understand what is
• 22:24
  encryption, what types are there and what you need to use when.
• 22:28
  But we don't know how to do that.
• 22:29
  And that's exactly what I told him, saying become an auditor.
• 22:33
  Then you're able to leverage 20 years of experience.
• 22:35
  Yeah, write these people with your knowledge.
• 22:37
  And basically you've developed a sense of what can go wrong and
• 22:41
  what can go right. And the framework provides you,
• 22:44
  you know, a toolkit on what you need to check and over a period
• 22:48
  of six months to one year, the same thing.
• 22:50
  So of course I mentioned to him the network and I mentioned to
• 22:54
  him he can lean back on any one of us in I'm also a board member
• 22:59
  at Isaka. And I said you can lean back on
• 23:01
  any one of us. You can become a member, you can
• 23:04
  join us. And that's exactly somehow I
• 23:08
  told him, but not in the structure of just simple three
• 23:11
  things. I randomly over a story, told
• 23:13
  him the three things and he liked it because he understood
• 23:17
  it. Being smart and having had the
• 23:18
  experience that I don't want to be competing against where I'm
• 23:23
  having a disadvantage, rather where I will have an advantage.
• 23:26
  Yeah. Yeah, I think you're absolutely
• 23:28
  right. And I think from our point of
• 23:30
  view, we need to link with the cyber experts, the IT experts,
• 23:36
  but we also need to link with the the lawyers.
• 23:40
  I'm not a lawyer, but lawyers, some lawyers want to transition
• 23:45
  into what we do. And some people who start off
• 23:48
  doing what we do transition into becoming lawyers.
• 23:52
  So it works, but we should never work in a silo.
• 23:55
  You know, we have to work with these other people.
• 23:59
  We have to say, well, we need to bring them in, we need to bring
• 24:03
  the the cyber and we need to bring the lawyers in.
• 24:05
  You know, we need to work together.
• 24:07
  I see my job as the legislations out there.
• 24:11
  I'll leave that all to the lawyers.
• 24:13
  My job is that practical application.
• 24:15
  How does it work in practise? And that's what I want to do.
• 24:20
  And I need the support of these other people as well.
• 24:23
  So they're they're not my competitors, they're my
• 24:25
  colleagues. Absolutely.
• 24:28
  And I think that's what most people sometimes miss when
• 24:31
  they're joining the field or thinking of becoming.
• 24:33
  They want to become everything. No, you don't need to.
• 24:35
  You need to know where you focus and where you want to be the
• 24:40
  expert in or relevant in. And then you work around with
• 24:43
  people and you will never know all the answers.
• 24:46
  Even us, we go back, we ask sometimes our colleagues saying
• 24:50
  hey, this is a situation or sometimes we go back and reflect
• 24:53
  and that's perfecting because you will never be perfect.
• 24:56
  And these things, the laws, the regulations, the frameworks keep
• 24:59
  changing. Because I remember recently they
• 25:02
  wanted to abolish the DPO role in the UK.
• 25:05
  And now in the GDPR review, I hope, I think good sense
• 25:09
  prevailed in the UK. They are not anymore of thinking
• 25:12
  of abolishing DPO, isn't it? No, no.
• 25:15
  So that was before the last general election.
• 25:17
  It was a part of bill that was passing through the Parliament
• 25:20
  and the House of Lords. But when they called the general
• 25:22
  election it, it got swept away. It didn't go, but yet it was.
• 25:27
  And that would have had. Would that have had an impact?
• 25:30
  It would have had some impact, but organisations will have
• 25:33
  still had to comply with the law.
• 25:37
  And so complying with the law means that, you know, they still
• 25:41
  have to have some advice by who they may not have it internally.
• 25:45
  So they have to come to people like us.
• 25:47
  So I can understand where it was coming from.
• 25:51
  And for some people, they might have said, oh, my job's going.
• 25:54
  I didn't think so. But there were other things in
• 25:57
  that bill as well. You know, the Roper, there
• 26:00
  wasn't a requirement to do a Roper.
• 26:02
  Well, I would say to me a Roper is really important to know
• 26:06
  where the information is, who, who has access to it, who's it
• 26:09
  shared with, what's the legal basis.
• 26:11
  So all those things. But that in the bill was going
• 26:14
  to go, but it got it got put on one side.
• 26:18
  But what we've had now is and it doesn't replace GDPR or the data
• 26:22
  protection. We have a two bill in the UK
• 26:25
  called the Data Use and Access Act and it supplements what
• 26:31
  we've already got some slight changes but nothing significant.
• 26:36
  So that to us was was was helpful.
• 26:40
  Good. I hope the same will happen for
• 26:42
  GDPR because there are some, there's a review and I think the
• 26:46
  review will a pragmatic sense will prevail within view of the
• 26:50
  world, changes in the world, the AI and also the need for opening
• 26:53
  up for AI, but also protecting because it's both ways.
• 26:56
  You want to open up data, but you also want to protect
• 26:59
  individuals. Yeah.
• 27:00
  But it because it's really interesting going back to the AI
• 27:03
  bit and, and, and how it works when thinking about the GDPR
• 27:07
  principles, that principle of profiling, you know, AI could be
• 27:14
  very, very easily used to profile individuals.
• 27:18
  But it's interesting, you know, so that I think there might need
• 27:22
  to be some clarification on that about using it.
• 27:24
  But it's interesting because I went to a conference in Paris
• 27:29
  last year with Tanya and she spoke because it was more her
• 27:35
  topic. But I heard somebody talking
• 27:37
  there about AI. And it wasn't about how it might
• 27:40
  impact individuals, but sometimes how it might impact
• 27:46
  groups of people. You know, those groups of people
• 27:50
  could be minority groups, whether that might be, you know,
• 27:55
  from certain parts of the world at small groups in a part of a
• 27:59
  country that that profiling could have an impact upon them.
• 28:04
  And I thought that was really interesting.
• 28:06
  So again, it's, it's making sure that any legislation that comes
• 28:10
  up, hey, even now I'm still reading about, you know,
• 28:15
  legislation and making sure that even I still want to keep up to
• 28:19
  date. But as it changes, it does bring
• 28:21
  6 challenges as well. Yeah, it always brings
• 28:25
  challenges, but those challenges are usually in the long term
• 28:28
  good. They are in the on the right, on
• 28:31
  the, they are on the right thing, on the right path.
• 28:33
  But the immediate reaction sometimes is query.
• 28:35
  But I'm tempted to ask you one final question, which most
• 28:39
  people ask out of, I would say lack of understanding.
• 28:43
  But still, I'm tempted to ask, in your view, with this AI and
• 28:49
  quantum and all these emerging technologies, would privacy
• 28:52
  remain relevant or how would it shift?
• 28:57
  Oh my goodness. I'm, I'm just tempted to say I
• 29:02
  went to a conference two years ago.
• 29:05
  AI wasn't mentioned last year, beginning of last year, it
• 29:09
  seemed to be on everybody's agenda.
• 29:12
  Now there are, there are conferences for AI.
• 29:17
  So the world has changed and I believe it's going to change
• 29:21
  even more over the next 12 months, 2 years.
• 29:24
  I think AI is advancing quite quickly and whatever we put into
• 29:29
  place today may well be out of date.
• 29:32
  I'm going to even say next month, in six months time, 12
• 29:36
  months time. So I think AI will have a big
• 29:40
  impact, but I also think that it won't change.
• 29:46
  It won't get rid of my job or your job.
• 29:50
  I still think there'll be a role for privacy professionals,
• 29:54
  consultants, experts, simply because we're still talking
• 29:58
  about data and that personal data, that special category data
• 30:03
  that might be used. So as much as you know, I, yes,
• 30:07
  I'm at the end of my career, I still think there is a career
• 30:11
  for people like ourselves going forward.
• 30:15
  And as much as AI will have an impact, it's just the way that
• 30:19
  we look at things. I may have in my previous
• 30:24
  podcast with you, how did I get into this this industry?
• 30:30
  Well, I was the last person to run out of the room when they
• 30:34
  wanted somebody to talk about the 1998 Data Protection Act.
• 30:39
  Well, before that was the 1984. Well, you know, as new
• 30:43
  legislation has brought in, we have to change with it.
• 30:48
  And I think what we can do is help organisations change when
• 30:53
  these new things come in. Will it be a challenge for me,
• 30:56
  for you and for our colleagues? The answer is yes.
• 31:00
  I think we're in a good place to be able to say, you know, this
• 31:03
  is what we need to be thinking about.
• 31:07
  And I think on that note, I would say challenging things
• 31:10
  always create opportunities. So don't look at challenges as
• 31:14
  something that's blocking you. They are creating new
• 31:17
  opportunities and new jobs. So look at like that and I would
• 31:21
  say very, I'm amazed that it's you're doing more in the retired
• 31:27
  life than before, because then it was 1 field helping clients
• 31:32
  and having lots of clients. Now you're having lots of
• 31:34
  dimensions. So keep enjoying life with work
• 31:38
  without whatever way you want, and keep helping people and
• 31:41
  passing on your knowledge. Thank you very much and I, you
• 31:45
  know, thank you for welcoming today and I wish you all the
• 31:48
  best and our colleagues, I wish them all the best as well.
• 31:54
  Thank you for joining us on the Fit for Privacy podcast.
• 31:57
  We hope you found today's conversation valuable and
• 31:59
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• 32:01
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• 32:03
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