Latest / Pod Save America / "Two Truths & the Big Lie." (with Jen Psaki!)

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"Two Truths & the Big Lie." (with Jen Psaki!) · Pod Save America

• 0:20
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: I'm Dan Pfeiffer.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: On today's pod, White House Press Secretary Jen Psaki is
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: here to talk about how the president intends to get
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: his agenda through Congress... Dan and I dive into the
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: roiling debate over popularism and the future of the Democratic Party.
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: And we react to the news that AT & T
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: funded the right-wing propaganda network OAN with a game we're
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: calling Two Truths and a Big Lie. There you go, Dan.
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: That's for you. But first, two quick notes before we start.
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: Philip McCarty's podcast Unholier Than Thou is back. Season two
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: is all about the wisdom of people falling down, getting up,
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: and trying new things as they navigate reentry into a
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: newish world. Catch up on the first episode with Samita Mukhopadhyay,
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: former editor of Teen Vogue, as she and Phil dive
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: deep into the lessons of grief and how to build
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: relationships over time. Also, check out Jason Concepcion's new fan
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: culture podcast, X-Ray Vision, if you haven't already. Each week,
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: Jason is joined by panelists and guests for deep dives
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: into your favorite films, TV shows, and comics, including the
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: Marvel Cinematic Universe, Star Wars, and so much more. Follow
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: Unholier Than Thou and X-Ray Vision wherever you get your podcasts.
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: All right, let's get to the news. President Biden is
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: dealing with a delightful set of challenges right now, a pandemic,
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: an economy that hasn't fully recovered from the pandemic, an
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: ongoing assault on democracy by the other major political party,
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: and two extremely annoying Democratic senators who continue to stand
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: in the way of his agenda passing Congress. Here to
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: talk with us about how much fun she's having answering
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: only the most thoughtful questions from reporters about all of
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: this every day of the week, White House Press Secretary
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: Jen Psaki. Jen, welcome back.
• 1:58
  Speaker 3: Great to be here. Thanks for having me.
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: So I know we've been friends for a long time,
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: but I have to be a serious journalist right now
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: and ask you some pretty hard-hitting questions about which tweets
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: Ron Klain has been liking. What is it like to
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: have a Politico reporter whose entire beat is Ron's tweet likes?
• 2:19
  Speaker 3: It's a little mysterious.
• 2:20
  Speaker 4: I mean, there's a few things going on in the world.
• 2:23
  Speaker 4: So you do have to find yourself kind of giving
• 2:25
  Speaker 4: the context of the tweet that was retweeted and what
• 2:28
  Speaker 4: the retweet may or may not mean.
• 2:30
  Speaker 3: Sometimes what we're doing here, sometimes what we're doing here.
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: So, yes, it's quality. It's quality journalism, Jen. So the
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: three of us were all at the White House together
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: through the 2009 financial crisis, Tea Party protests, 2010 midterms,
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: government shutdown, debt ceiling crisis. How does what you guys
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: are dealing with right now compare to all those other
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: shit sandwiches that we had to eat?
• 2:52
  Speaker 4: Well, I wish I could say sugar, honey, iced tea.
• 2:55
  Speaker 3: That's what I'm going to say as a government official
• 2:57
  Speaker 3: these days.
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: Sugar, honey, iced tea. Episode title.
• 3:00
  Speaker 4: One day, you know, I just have to keep it PG,
• 3:03
  Speaker 4: keep it PG. So, look, I mean, I think having
• 3:07
  Speaker 4: been here before, and a lot of us have, helps
• 3:10
  Speaker 4: because having lived through some of these journeys before, especially
• 3:14
  Speaker 4: on the legislative front, means that you don't really freak out.
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 3:18
  Speaker 4: And none of us are freaking out here. And you
• 3:20
  Speaker 4: guys remember and lived through and hopefully you don't have PTSD,
• 3:23
  Speaker 4: but the Affordable Care Act journey and battle and the
• 3:29
  Speaker 4: battle to get Dodd-Frank passed and all of these pieces
• 3:34
  Speaker 4: that had so many ups and downs.
• 3:36
  Speaker 3: And we were never hiding under our desks or laying
• 3:38
  Speaker 3: under our desk in the fetal position. We're not now.
• 3:42
  Speaker 4: But yeah, look, I mean, we always knew that at
• 3:43
  Speaker 4: this point in the administration, it would be hard and
• 3:45
  Speaker 4: it is hard. because there are things we control, there
• 3:48
  Speaker 4: are things we don't control. Getting legislation done takes some time.
• 3:51
  Speaker 4: It turns out democracy means people have a lot of
• 3:54
  Speaker 4: opinions and different.
• 3:55
  Speaker 3: Points of view, and they're going to argue them and
• 3:57
  Speaker 3: voice them. And that's what's happening now.
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: You know, Jen, one of the things you have to
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: deal with every day is sort of a lemming-like herding
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: towards a particular narrative, right? So earlier... And which seems
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: maybe like 100 years ago to you, the narrative was
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: Joe Biden is the next FDR and LBJ all wrapped
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: in a one passing everything. Everything's great. And then for
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: the last few months, it's been the exact opposite of that.
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: Dems in disarray. The whales are coming off the bus,
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: et cetera, et cetera. What is what should the actual
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: what is the actual correct narrative about where you guys
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: are in the presidency right now?
• 4:31
  Speaker 4: Well, since you asked me, I mean, a lot of
• 4:33
  Speaker 4: that is around what he's proposed legislatively, right?
• 4:36
  Speaker 3: So having these big, bold proposals, the Build Back Better.
• 4:39
  Speaker 4: Agenda, these huge packages. And there's no question that the
• 4:43
  Speaker 4: fact that this has become a focus around numbers has
• 4:47
  Speaker 4: not been helpful.
• 4:48
  Speaker 3: We can't entirely control that.
• 4:49
  Speaker 4: We obviously want to talk about the substantive pieces. But
• 4:52
  Speaker 4: right now, I mean, the thing that's challenging with the
• 4:55
  Speaker 4: daily lemmings, as you said, about the line of questioning
• 4:58
  Speaker 4: is that it's not really a cut if it's a
• 5:01
  Speaker 4: package that doesn't exist, right? I mean, essentially, if you
• 5:04
  Speaker 4: don't get a package passed or there isn't enough support
• 5:07
  Speaker 4: in Congress to pass something, a $ 3. 5 trillion package, the
• 5:11
  Speaker 4: alternative is not something bigger, it's nothing, right? So right
• 5:16
  Speaker 4: now where things sit, we're trying to piece together what
• 5:20
  Speaker 4: we still think is going to be a hugely historic
• 5:22
  Speaker 4: package that's going to do a lot of really, really
• 5:25
  Speaker 4: good things that haven't been done in the past, including
• 5:29
  Speaker 4: making universal pre-K a reality, something that we know statistically
• 5:33
  Speaker 4: will help more people go to college, You know, investing
• 5:36
  Speaker 4: in climate change, something that we know is long overdue,
• 5:39
  Speaker 4: and the US is one of the worst emitters in
• 5:41
  Speaker 4: the world. Making college a reality for people, investing in
• 5:45
  Speaker 4: paid leave. So sometimes we get a little, you know,
• 5:49
  Speaker 4: there's a shorthanding or we focus on the process, the
• 5:53
  Speaker 4: legislative process, hugely important, I guess, for reporters to ask
• 5:56
  Speaker 4: about it, but we miss the point, right? And the
• 5:58
  Speaker 4: point right now is we're trying to put together a
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  Speaker 4: historic package that will be bigger investments in a lot
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  Speaker 4: of these key things, climate, universal pre-K, paid leave, making
• 6:08
  Speaker 4: clean water a reality than has ever happened in the past.
• 6:12
  Speaker 4: And we get mired in, is it 3.2? Is it 2.7?
• 6:15
  Speaker 4: What did Senator Manchin have for lunch? I mean, which
• 6:18
  Speaker 4: we're kind of missing the point. So that's the reality
• 6:21
  Speaker 4: of what we're trying to do now. We think we're
• 6:23
  Speaker 4: going to get there, but it's sometimes hard to break
• 6:25
  Speaker 4: through the noise of the game of where the numbers
• 6:28
  Speaker 4: are and what the emotions are of different members of Congress.
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: I will not ask you what Joe Manchin had for lunch.
• 6:35
  Speaker 3: I don't know.
• 6:38
  Speaker 4: If it's something that's going to lead to a package passing,
• 6:41
  Speaker 4: I will get that lunch tomorrow.
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: Whatever you want.
• 6:43
  Speaker 3: Whatever it is.
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: I know you can't divulge almost any details. I mean,
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: you can.
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: Not to reporters, but to us.
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: You probably won't.
• 6:53
  Speaker 3: Come on in. Among friends.
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: No one's listening. No one's listening.
• 6:57
  Speaker 3: It's just us. No one listens to you guys, right?
• 6:59
  Speaker 3: No one stops me in the street and says, I
• 7:00
  Speaker 3: heard you on Pod Save America. That happens all the time.
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: There's some reports that Manchin and Sinema themselves are disagreeing
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: with each other so much that it's nearly impossible to
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: square the circle, right? There's like people close to the
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: White House saying this. Is there any truth to that?
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: Are you more optimistic than these reports are?
• 7:21
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Don't feel that bad, everyone. Here's the thing.
• 7:24
  Speaker 4: People negotiate a lot in public, privately, of course, but
• 7:29
  Speaker 4: a lot in public. And sometimes that's their job to
• 7:31
  Speaker 4: do that. People want more of something. They want something
• 7:34
  Speaker 4: to be smaller because they want to go run for
• 7:36
  Speaker 4: office and say, I'm very fiscally conservative or I want
• 7:39
  Speaker 4: more and I fought for more years of a program.
• 7:42
  Speaker 3: That's democracy working. Ultimately, when it comes down to it,
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  Speaker 3: no bill is perfect.
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  Speaker 4: It's not going to be everything that Joe Biden wants.
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  Speaker 4: It's not going to be everything Joe Manchin wants or
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  Speaker 4: Kyrsten Sinema wants, or Pramil Jayapal.
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  Speaker 3: Or any member of Congress. It's ultimately a compromise, and you.
• 7:59
  Speaker 4: Try to get to the best package possible. But ultimately,
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  Speaker 4: we can't do this forever. We're not doing this forever.
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  Speaker 3: Time is running short here.
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  Speaker 4: We've got to come to a time where we figure
• 8:08
  Speaker 4: out what's the best version we can get enough votes
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  Speaker 4: for that is still going to have a historic impact.
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  Speaker 4: So people should not feel glum out there. We're going
• 8:16
  Speaker 4: to get this done. It's still going to be historic
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  Speaker 4: in all these areas. It's going to be a bigger
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  Speaker 4: investment in climate and childcare and paid leave than anything ever.
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  Speaker 3: In the history before.
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  Speaker 4: And right now we're just in kind of the messy,
• 8:29
  Speaker 4: messy phase where people are doing their peacocks a little
• 8:32
  Speaker 4: peacock feathers, you know what I mean?
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  Speaker 3: In public and arguing for what they think is most important.
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: Well, I want to give you guys an opportunity to
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: do peacock feathers. So everyone seems to have red lines here, right?
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: Where it's like- I had a.
• 8:41
  Speaker 4: Little, it was like jazz hands peacocks.
• 8:43
  Speaker 3: I don't know what's happening there, but it.
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: Just came out.
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it worked for, it sold me. You know, everyone
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: has red lines in this debate. There are certain things
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: that Manchin won't do, certain things he demands, means testing, etc.,
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: Certain things that at least through the vague smoke signals
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: coming from the winery or the Boston Marathon, we know
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: what Kirsten Cinemas are. The progressives have been very specific
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: about a set of things in there. Are there any
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: red lines that you guys have? Like it must have
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: those things you said it has to be this much
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: climate or these things have to be included?
• 9:13
  Speaker 4: What ultimately we want to get done right is to
• 9:16
  Speaker 4: ease the burden on families especially in areas like care
• 9:20
  Speaker 4: that's a big category but child care elder care um
• 9:24
  Speaker 4: you know those are things that impact people um like
• 9:27
  Speaker 4: us right you have parents not that all of our
• 9:29
  Speaker 4: parents are that old but you know your parents you
• 9:31
  Speaker 4: have kids you're trying to balance all these things that's
• 9:34
  Speaker 4: one area of that's absolutely going to be in there.
• 9:36
  Speaker 4: What the machinations of it are, you know, that's what's
• 9:39
  Speaker 4: being litigated now. Climate will absolutely be in there. That's
• 9:42
  Speaker 4: important and that's vital. So the key, but it's a
• 9:45
  Speaker 4: little different from when we had this debate about the
• 9:47
  Speaker 4: American Rescue Plan, where there were basic things that we
• 9:50
  Speaker 4: were demanding and red lines. The only red line, that
• 9:53
  Speaker 4: still gives me a little bit of like agita, that phrase,
• 9:58
  Speaker 4: but the only red line that the president has is
• 10:01
  Speaker 4: that it cannot raise taxes for people making less than $ 400, 000
• 10:04
  Speaker 4: a year. That's important because for a lot, a lot
• 10:07
  Speaker 4: of times in this debate, the issue has been about
• 10:09
  Speaker 4: what the pay-fors were going to be. Now, ultimately the
• 10:12
  Speaker 4: tax system is so unfair and people should pay more
• 10:15
  Speaker 4: taxes to, you know, companies, who weren't paying any taxes
• 10:18
  Speaker 4: in the last year, 50 of them, 50 of the
• 10:20
  Speaker 4: top companies didn't. They should pay more taxes. High-income people
• 10:23
  Speaker 4: should pay more taxes. That's important too. That's not just
• 10:25
  Speaker 4: to pay for, but now that's the major bottom line.
• 10:29
  Speaker 4: But there was a kind of a little focus a
• 10:31
  Speaker 4: couple of days ago about what Speaker Pelosi said about
• 10:34
  Speaker 4: how she wanted either to do some things well, right?
• 10:38
  Speaker 3: There were a lot of people who were saying they
• 10:39
  Speaker 3: wanted to do some things well in the package.
• 10:42
  Speaker 4: We can do all of those things. The fact is
• 10:44
  Speaker 4: this package has so much stuff in it. What they're
• 10:46
  Speaker 4: really talking about in Congress and in committees is that
• 10:51
  Speaker 4: they're going to pair out some of the smaller programs.
• 10:53
  Speaker 4: And that's what we're working through.
• 10:55
  Speaker 3: But the core things of what we're trying to get
• 10:57
  Speaker 3: done are going to be in this package.
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: And do you guys have a time? I'm not going
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: to actually make predictions. We are very against the prediction
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: game here. But Is there a timeline you guys are
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: pushing for? Do you want this done by Thanksgiving? Does
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: it have to be done before the debt ceiling comes
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: up again? Or is there something that you're pushing for,
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: knowing that you don't control how this will actually go?
• 11:16
  Speaker 3: Well, we're nearing the end of the time of negotiations here.
• 11:19
  Speaker 4: So right now, we're at the phase where we're basically
• 11:22
  Speaker 4: conveying we need to know the bottom lines. We need
• 11:24
  Speaker 4: to know what's hugely important to you, what your priorities are,
• 11:27
  Speaker 4: so we can move toward a unified package. Now, as
• 11:31
  Speaker 4: you guys know, this process takes some time. And there
• 11:34
  Speaker 4: are some timeline things that we don't see as deadlines,
• 11:37
  Speaker 4: but are marking points, right? October 31st, I know that's
• 11:41
  Speaker 4: sort of a weird timeline, but that is the date
• 11:45
  Speaker 4: the surface transportation bill expires. We don't see that as
• 11:47
  Speaker 4: a deadline, but there has to be a vote to
• 11:49
  Speaker 4: extend that. So that's just for something, you know, something
• 11:51
  Speaker 4: for people to be aware of. And after that, as
• 11:55
  Speaker 4: you touched on in early December, is the deadline or
• 11:59
  Speaker 4: the timeline for when we need to vote again on
• 12:01
  Speaker 4: a debt limit and keeping the government open. So there's
• 12:04
  Speaker 4: going to be these set periods of time where there
• 12:07
  Speaker 4: are other votes, but ultimately, We're at the end of
• 12:10
  Speaker 4: the period of negotiating soon. And that's going to mean
• 12:13
  Speaker 4: there's going to be a vote soon on a bill
• 12:17
  Speaker 4: because we're at that point.
• 12:18
  Speaker 3: In the process.
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: You hear that, Joe Manchin? You hear that, Kirsten Sinema?
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: Talking to you there. I know they're listening.
• 12:24
  Speaker 3: Time is not open-ended.
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: We mentioned the debt limit. It's obviously like incredibly dangerous
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: and irresponsible that Senate Republicans and McConnell are filibustering any
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: debt ceiling increase, though McConnell has basically promised to do
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: that next time it comes up. What I haven't been
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: able to figure out is what's so bad about Senate Democrats,
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: including a debt limit increase in reconciliation, maybe even including
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: a number that takes it off the table as a
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: weapons for Republicans to use for the rest of Joe
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: Biden's time in office. What was the White House think
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: about that?
• 13:02
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, the debt limit and the political games
• 13:06
  Speaker 4: around it have become a little tiresome. I think that's
• 13:08
  Speaker 4: the gentlest way to say it. And so there are
• 13:12
  Speaker 4: good discussions about what the future of it looks like.
• 13:15
  Speaker 4: I mean, ultimately, we know this is a bit of
• 13:17
  Speaker 4: a political game, saying something you guys already know on
• 13:20
  Speaker 4: Senator McConnell's part and trying to make it sound like
• 13:24
  Speaker 4: this means the Democrats are voting for a massive.
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: Debt, right?
• 13:28
  Speaker 4: Or an increase in debt, which is not what it is.
• 13:30
  Speaker 3: It's paying bills that we've owed. There's still politics around that.
• 13:34
  Speaker 4: That still impacts people, including Democrats in terms of what
• 13:37
  Speaker 4: they want to vote for, what kind of package or
• 13:39
  Speaker 4: where they want it to live and be a part
• 13:41
  Speaker 4: of the easiest thing, which I understand what you're saying
• 13:44
  Speaker 4: is it's hard.
• 13:44
  Speaker 3: We just nearly came to the brink.
• 13:46
  Speaker 4: We did is for them to go through the regular
• 13:48
  Speaker 4: order process and just to vote, to increase the debt
• 13:51
  Speaker 4: limit or to, to allow Democrats to.
• 13:54
  Speaker 3: Just do it themselves. That's the fastest way, the easiest
• 13:57
  Speaker 3: way to do it.
• 13:58
  Speaker 4: And ultimately, we need the majority of Democrats to support that.
• 14:02
  Speaker 4: And they don't always support every other option that you've
• 14:05
  Speaker 4: just outlined.
• 14:05
  Speaker 3: So that's our challenge.
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: I get it. Message delivered.
• 14:09
  Speaker 3: That's our challenge that we're trying to work through, right?
• 14:13
  Speaker 4: And you know, look, ultimately, you know, there's something you
• 14:16
  Speaker 4: guys already know and you've talked about probably in the
• 14:18
  Speaker 4: past is that sometimes people make it sound like, Senator
• 14:22
  Speaker 4: McConnell is some sort of three dimensional chess player, right,
• 14:25
  Speaker 4: who is just, you know, conveying playing this game that
• 14:29
  Speaker 4: none of us can play. I mean, ultimately, the debt
• 14:31
  Speaker 4: limit was was raised through regular order and Republicans voted,
• 14:35
  Speaker 4: you know, allowed it to move forward and they're allowed
• 14:37
  Speaker 4: to have a vote. That's really what we need to
• 14:39
  Speaker 4: do the problem with. And there's been a lot of
• 14:41
  Speaker 4: talk about a separate reconciliation process on this.
• 14:44
  Speaker 3: Is that that's never been done before. It takes time.
• 14:47
  Speaker 4: And when we're talking about trying to get the rest
• 14:49
  Speaker 4: of the agenda passed, climate, child care, all these things,
• 14:53
  Speaker 4: you don't want to take up weeks of time on
• 14:56
  Speaker 4: the floor doing that because we need to get the
• 14:58
  Speaker 4: other stuff done.
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: So when this process was coming to a head a
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: few weeks ago, one of the ideas that was raised
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: was an exception to the filibuster for the debt limit.
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: President Biden called that a real possibility. That is, to
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: my knowledge, at least the first time he has publicly
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: been open to some sort of filibuster reform. Does he
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: have that openness to other areas, most notably voting rights,
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: something that he has said is absolutely essential getting done,
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: but has no realistic chance of getting done in a
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: world where the filibuster exists?
• 15:29
  Speaker 4: Well, I mean, first, you need 50 votes in the
• 15:33
  Speaker 4: Senate to change the filibuster. And what we know from
• 15:36
  Speaker 4: that period of time is that there were not 50
• 15:38
  Speaker 4: votes in the Senate to have an exemption from on
• 15:42
  Speaker 4: the filibuster for raising the debt limit. That remains the
• 15:45
  Speaker 4: case today. I think there's no question that voting rights,
• 15:49
  Speaker 4: getting voting rights done.
• 15:52
  Speaker 3: Has to happen.
• 15:53
  Speaker 4: There's no other option. We need to do this. It
• 15:56
  Speaker 4: is one of the greatest threats to our democracy. So
• 16:00
  Speaker 4: that's something the president believes, the vice president believes. We
• 16:03
  Speaker 4: have to get it done. But when we talk about
• 16:06
  Speaker 4: the filibuster and how it works, it is not the
• 16:10
  Speaker 4: president just saying, I'm for changes. He is for going
• 16:13
  Speaker 4: back to the talking filibuster. It would require 50 votes.
• 16:16
  Speaker 3: In the Senate.
• 16:17
  Speaker 4: I don't know if you guys have noticed, but there
• 16:19
  Speaker 4: are a few senators who aren't waiting for us to
• 16:21
  Speaker 4: tell them what to do and just abiding by it.
• 16:24
  Speaker 3: So that's just something for people to be aware of.
• 16:26
  Speaker 4: But I can assure you and all the people who
• 16:29
  Speaker 4: loyally listen that voting rights is something we have to do,
• 16:32
  Speaker 4: we're going to do. And some of this is a
• 16:36
  Speaker 4: necessary sequencing of getting different pieces of a legislative agenda done.
• 16:41
  Speaker 4: Not because one's more important, just because it's how to
• 16:43
  Speaker 4: process it to get them all done.
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: We can love democracy and the climate at the same time.
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: That is fair.
• 16:50
  Speaker 3: We love the climate. We love democracy.
• 16:53
  Speaker 4: We love pre-K. We love kids in pre-K. We love
• 16:55
  Speaker 4: them too. You know, we love clean drinking water. We
• 16:59
  Speaker 4: love broadband.
• 17:00
  Speaker 3: We love all the things.
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: So Jen, you know, The president ran on a unity message.
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: He talked about working with Republicans, has had actually a
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: lot more success doing that in the first nine months
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: of his presidency than I think he gets a lot
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: of credit for. But sort of below the surface, there's
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: something very different and dangerous happening with Republicans. You have
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: a pretty open plan to try to steal the 2024
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: election from him. You have Republicans trying to turn the
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: January 6th insurrectionists into martyrs. And then in Virginia, last night,
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: there was a very disturbing incident at a rally for
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: Glenn Youngkin. Do we have the clip here?
• 17:39
  Speaker 4: I also want to invite Kim from Chesapeake.
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: She's carrying an American flag that was carried at the
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: peaceful rally with Donald J.
• 17:48
  Speaker 3: Trump on January 6th.
• 17:54
  Speaker 4: I ask you all, I ask you all to rise
• 17:58
  Speaker 4: and join us as Mark Lloyd leads us in the pledge.
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: Cool. Really cool.
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: And so I know, Jen, I know the president has
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: talked a lot about the challenges to our democracy. I'm
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: just curious sort of what his reaction is to some
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: of these things that are happening out there that are
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: threats to the democracy and whether, you know, we're going
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: to sort of, that's something you expect to have him
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: talk about more, obviously, as you get through the many sugar, honey,
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: iced tea sandwiches on the current menu, but.
• 18:25
  Speaker 3: That's for my mother-in-law.
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: It's very good. We're bringing it to the Pfeiffer household
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: right now.
• 18:31
  Speaker 3: Bring it, bring it, bring it. It's lengthy, but you
• 18:34
  Speaker 3: can feel free to steal it. Yes.
• 18:37
  Speaker 4: I mean, look, I think one thing, yes, people will
• 18:39
  Speaker 4: hear the president talk about this more. And I think
• 18:42
  Speaker 4: just because we have a lot going on in the
• 18:44
  Speaker 4: agenda right now that's consuming a lot of the oxygen,
• 18:47
  Speaker 4: it shouldn't lessen anyone's understanding of the focus on some
• 18:51
  Speaker 4: of these key pieces. I mean, look at the January
• 18:53
  Speaker 4: 6th commission and the work that they're doing. And as
• 18:57
  Speaker 4: we've approached that, not only has the president spoken out
• 19:00
  Speaker 4: about how this was the darkest day in democracy, but
• 19:02
  Speaker 4: as we've considered and we'll consider them case by case,
• 19:05
  Speaker 4: we have not granted executive privilege to the request from
• 19:09
  Speaker 4: the Trump administration on documents or on individuals to date.
• 19:13
  Speaker 4: We'll keep considering because we need to get to the
• 19:16
  Speaker 4: bottom of what happened that day and we can't stand
• 19:18
  Speaker 4: for it.
• 19:19
  Speaker 3: I mean, the Virginia race is really I mean, I'm
• 19:21
  Speaker 3: a Virginia resident. So this is like a little close
• 19:23
  Speaker 3: to home here. It's a little scary as a.
• 19:27
  Speaker 4: As a progressive woman in the suburbs, we need to
• 19:29
  Speaker 4: pay attention to what's going on here because this could
• 19:31
  Speaker 4: really change things for us. I think what is happening
• 19:36
  Speaker 4: a little bit, or this is, I guess, my assessment,
• 19:39
  Speaker 4: is we're normalizing people who are not Trump but are
• 19:42
  Speaker 4: Republicans as if they're fine. Some we can work with
• 19:46
  Speaker 4: on certain things. That is part of the unifying message.
• 19:49
  Speaker 4: There Roads are not a partisan issue, right? Even universal
• 19:53
  Speaker 4: child care is not a partisan issue, clean drinking water.
• 19:56
  Speaker 4: But ultimately, when you have people who are denying climate
• 20:00
  Speaker 4: change exists, not allowing women to make choices about.
• 20:03
  Speaker 3: Their own health care, that's not moderate. That is not normal.
• 20:07
  Speaker 3: and that should not be normalized.
• 20:09
  Speaker 4: And so some of it, I think, is needing to identify,
• 20:13
  Speaker 4: needing to make clear that being unified does not mean
• 20:18
  Speaker 4: every Republican in Congress is agreeing with us on everything.
• 20:21
  Speaker 3: They're not.
• 20:23
  Speaker 4: There are going to be things we can work with
• 20:24
  Speaker 4: some Republicans on to move them forward.
• 20:26
  Speaker 3: And by necessity, we have to do that to get
• 20:29
  Speaker 3: some things passed.
• 20:30
  Speaker 4: But it also means calling out when things are are
• 20:33
  Speaker 4: not mainstream, are not even moderate and are not and
• 20:38
  Speaker 4: shouldn't be considered that way. And there's a lot of
• 20:40
  Speaker 4: things that fall into that category that kind of wash through.
• 20:43
  Speaker 3: And they really shouldn't.
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: Is the president going to go back to Virginia to
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: campaign with Terry McAuliffe again before the race?
• 20:49
  Speaker 3: I suspect he will.
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: All right. I was just wondering, has working in the
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: White House started to feel a little more normal than
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: when you guys first got there or has Delta kept
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: it pretty weird?
• 21:03
  Speaker 3: It's still a little weird.
• 21:04
  Speaker 4: I mean, I, because we do all of our, not all,
• 21:09
  Speaker 4: but we still do a lot of meetings in our
• 21:11
  Speaker 4: offices on Zoom. And so what's missing, which is just sad,
• 21:17
  Speaker 4: is that moment where you're in a meeting and there's
• 21:20
  Speaker 4: 40 people in there and you say, oh, look, there's
• 21:23
  Speaker 4: the science advisor.
• 21:24
  Speaker 3: I'm going to go ask him about Mars. I don't know.
• 21:26
  Speaker 3: I mean, you know, there's all these experts in here.
• 21:28
  Speaker 3: And you just run into them in meetings.
• 21:30
  Speaker 4: And sometimes you didn't even realize you had a follow-up
• 21:31
  Speaker 4: question and that doesn't exist.
• 21:34
  Speaker 3: And so I have a bit of a sadness for
• 21:37
  Speaker 3: this amazing.
• 21:38
  Speaker 4: Group of people who work as a part of the
• 21:40
  Speaker 4: press team who haven't experienced.
• 21:42
  Speaker 3: That, right?
• 21:42
  Speaker 4: Where you're just in and out of these meetings and
• 21:44
  Speaker 4: you look over and you're like, wow, there's a world-renowned economist.
• 21:47
  Speaker 3: I mean, we're all nerdy here, right? So we all
• 21:49
  Speaker 3: think this is cool.
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: You know, that's a cool thing, right?
• 21:52
  Speaker 3: It's cool.
• 21:53
  Speaker 4: There's Gina McCarthy, you know, there's Susan Rice and that
• 21:57
  Speaker 4: doesn't exist as much. And so, you know, and I
• 22:00
  Speaker 4: think that's part of the White House experience. So a
• 22:03
  Speaker 4: lot of people, I mean, You guys know this because
• 22:05
  Speaker 4: you've been in here. You know, I wouldn't be able
• 22:07
  Speaker 4: to do my job if I didn't have the team that.
• 22:09
  Speaker 3: Works for me. Right. And they they are embedded with these.
• 22:13
  Speaker 4: Policy folks, but they don't get to experience things in
• 22:16
  Speaker 4: the same way. There's no South Lawn events. There's no
• 22:18
  Speaker 4: events in the East Room. Now, the side benefit, there
• 22:21
  Speaker 4: is one benefit is I hate heels.
• 22:23
  Speaker 3: I really hate shoes.
• 22:25
  Speaker 4: And I was telling you guys when I came on,
• 22:27
  Speaker 4: I wear sneakers basically all day under my desk. And
• 22:29
  Speaker 4: I got up to go check on something like, you know,
• 22:33
  Speaker 4: somebody else's office.
• 22:34
  Speaker 3: And I was wearing a black shoe and a cream
• 22:36
  Speaker 3: and a cream colored shoe. And the Kenya delegation is here.
• 22:39
  Speaker 3: And they kind of looked at me oddly. So there
• 22:42
  Speaker 3: are things.
• 22:42
  Speaker 4: Like, you know, you can you can get some things
• 22:45
  Speaker 4: done while you're in your office. But there is an
• 22:47
  Speaker 4: element of it that's missing that makes me a little
• 22:50
  Speaker 4: sad for the people who haven't experienced working here before.
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, not sitting at my desk all day in a
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: tie every single moment would be kind of– That.
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: Was the only upside to the various government shutdowns.
• 22:59
  Speaker 3: You could wear.
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: Sneakers in this way.
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: There you go, Joe Biden. That's change you can believe in.
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: All right, Jen, I did something that I didn't even
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: do when I worked in the White House, which was
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: in preparation for this interview, I watched the briefing yesterday.
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: So I just have a.
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: Very– So many supply chain questions. I felt so bad
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: for you. I was like, leave her alone. Enough of
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: the supply chain questions. She answered it.
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: Then you're not going to like this question, John, because
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: Jen– Important issue.
• 23:23
  Speaker 3: Important issue. I'm deeply intrigued. Dan knows.
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: I was going to say, as our friend and a
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: high government official, I need to know whether you can
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: personally guarantee that my children's Christmas presents will arrive on time. Look,
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: can you do that?
• 23:40
  Speaker 4: I'm going to give you a little preview of how
• 23:42
  Speaker 4: I'm going to approach this in the briefing, which I
• 23:43
  Speaker 4: have not yet done. And I will inevitably be asked
• 23:46
  Speaker 4: this question.
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: Dan.
• 23:48
  Speaker 3: Dan.
• 23:49
  Speaker 4: Can you point out to me a past president who
• 23:51
  Speaker 4: has ever guaranteed the timing of packages arriving at people's homes?
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: Chester A. Arthur.
• 24:01
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 24:02
  Speaker 4: Even the Biden-Harris administration cannot guarantee the arrival of the
• 24:06
  Speaker 4: timing of packages. Yeah, look, this is actually, I mean,
• 24:11
  Speaker 4: all joking aside, it's actually a hugely important issue. It
• 24:15
  Speaker 4: is an example of how we sometimes dumb things down,
• 24:19
  Speaker 4: not you guys.
• 24:20
  Speaker 3: Thank you for what you're doing.
• 24:21
  Speaker 4: And I try not to either, but of what's happening
• 24:24
  Speaker 4: for the American people, right? This is not an issue
• 24:27
  Speaker 4: of like Joe Biden ruins packages that won't arrive at
• 24:30
  Speaker 4: your home.
• 24:30
  Speaker 3: I mean, this is crazy.
• 24:32
  Speaker 4: This is an issue of the fact that demand for
• 24:35
  Speaker 4: goods is way up.
• 24:37
  Speaker 3: It has been through the pandemic. And when we were
• 24:40
  Speaker 3: in the pandemic.
• 24:41
  Speaker 4: Manufacturing facilities shut down because of the pandemic. They weren't
• 24:44
  Speaker 4: producing as much supply and these goods that are going
• 24:48
  Speaker 4: to ports around the country, including the ports.
• 24:50
  Speaker 3: Of Los Angeles.
• 24:51
  Speaker 4: They never got they never had this many goods coming
• 24:53
  Speaker 4: through them. It's up massively, almost 20 percent. And so
• 24:56
  Speaker 4: we have to try to fix it. That's what we're
• 24:58
  Speaker 4: trying to do in government.
• 24:59
  Speaker 3: Right. It's not. But it's not.
• 25:01
  Speaker 4: You know, it's been kind of shorthanded into we're ruining Christmas,
• 25:04
  Speaker 4: which is why you asked me.
• 25:05
  Speaker 3: We're not.
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: You bet you may be too gracious to point this
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: out in the briefing room. But last year during Christmas,
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: when someone else was president. There were a few delayed packages.
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: Just a few. If I recall.
• 25:17
  Speaker 3: Just a few. Yes, that is certainly the case. Yeah.
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: Jen, I'm sure after a decade, you are sick of
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: having me offer you ideas. But one possible answer to
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: that question is Santa is magic.
• 25:33
  Speaker 4: Right or or as the onion did yesterday i'm we're
• 25:37
  Speaker 4: going to educate people on the true meaning of which we.
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: Could also do last question do you still plan to
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: uh leave next year or they could could they convince
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: you to stay Well.
• 25:48
  Speaker 4: Since my husband is a listener of Pods of America,
• 25:52
  Speaker 4: and I'm not sure my children are yet, you know, look,
• 25:57
  Speaker 4: I think when I came into this job, I knew
• 25:59
  Speaker 4: I would be here for not an unlimited period of time.
• 26:02
  Speaker 4: So sometime next year, it'll probably.
• 26:05
  Speaker 3: Be time for a new person, a new face. That
• 26:07
  Speaker 3: is not because I don't love government. I do. I
• 26:10
  Speaker 3: don't love doing this job. This job is amazing.
• 26:14
  Speaker 4: It's an honor to do it every single day, even
• 26:16
  Speaker 4: when there's... uh, questions about the dog and the briefing
• 26:19
  Speaker 4: room or whatever crazy thing comes out of, out of nowhere. Uh,
• 26:23
  Speaker 4: I love working for Joe Biden and actually at this
• 26:25
  Speaker 4: time in history, um, post, uh, Trump, but you know,
• 26:28
  Speaker 4: as you guys well know, I have two little kids. Um,
• 26:31
  Speaker 4: they're very tiring as I can confirm from, you know,
• 26:34
  Speaker 4: I think I built like a small rocket ship this
• 26:36
  Speaker 4: morning and colored before I came to work.
• 26:38
  Speaker 3: Um, and well, you know, that sounds very dramatic, but
• 26:41
  Speaker 3: you know, those little kits that they send you.
• 26:42
  Speaker 4: So, um, And, you know, it's also sometimes it's time
• 26:46
  Speaker 4: for kind of new fresh face perspective and all of
• 26:50
  Speaker 4: that as well.
• 26:51
  Speaker 3: So sometime next year.
• 26:51
  Speaker 4: I don't know exactly when yet, but I'll be here
• 26:54
  Speaker 4: till then.
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: Greg, I hope that was satisfactory.
• 26:57
  Speaker 3: I know, it was really careful.
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: I have an audience.
• 27:01
  Speaker 4: As some have once said, that's an audience of one
• 27:03
  Speaker 4: for that answer.
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: Jen Psaki, thank you so much for joining us as always.
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: Good luck out there in the briefing room and come
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: back again.
• 27:13
  Speaker 3: Thank you guys. Great talking to you. Bye.
• 27:23
  Speaker 5: All right.
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: You know how much I dislike extremely online debates, but
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: I am making an exception for one that Ezra Klein
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: kicked off this week about the future of the Democratic Party. because, Dan,
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: it's a debate that you and I have talked about
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: on the show, a debate that I basically turned into
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: two seasons of The Wilderness, and one that you wrote
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: about in the message box this week. I know you've
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: written about it a bunch before as well. At the
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: heart of this debate is a diagnosis and a prescription
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: from Obama 2012 data guru David Shore. Shore's diagnosis, as
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: Ezra explains it, is that With each passing election, Democrats
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: are winning more college-educated white voters and fewer non-college-educated white voters.
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: Then in 2020, Democrats also lost ground among black and
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: Latino voters with the sharpest drops coming among non-college-educated black
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: and Latino voters. So this increase in educational polarization disadvantages Democrats,
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: both in the Electoral College and especially in the Senate.
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: Because college-educated voters live mostly in bigger cities and surrounding suburbs,
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: while non-college-educated voters are mostly rural. All this means that
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: it will be almost impossible for Democrats to keep winning
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: 51 Senate seats, let alone 60, without winning some Republican-leaning
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: states that have more non-college-educated voters than college-educated voters. I
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: will stop there. just to see if you have anything
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: to add to this diagnosis of the problem, which I
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: will also add that most people on all sides of
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: this debate generally agree with the diagnosis. But what do
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: you think about it?
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: I think that's an excellent and very thorough summary. You
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: had me at an Ezra Klein column about a really
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: democratic online debate. That's really our sweet spot.
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: Then I really get you going talking about educational polarization, right?
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: That's right.
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: A bunch of people.
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: Turned it up in their cars.
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: But I would encourage people to go to the Ezra
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: Klein column about this that was online this weekend, because
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: in it, they have a very interesting little widget, I
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: guess you'd call it, where you can play around with
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: polarization and Democratic popular vote margin to see how Democrats
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: would do in the Senate. And I think there's one
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: prediction that David Shore has in the Ezra Klein column
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: that I think speaks to the tremendous challenge that Democrats have.
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: So 2024, according to his shortest calculations, if Joe Biden,
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: the Democratic nominee, wins 51% of the popular vote, something
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: that happens not that often, but if he were to
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: do that, Democrats would lose seven Senate seats. That's how
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: poorly stacked, that's how malapportioned the Senate is. And the
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: gap between our national progressive majority and a Republican power
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: in the Senate is so great that Joe Biden can
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: get reelected, he can win a majority of voters, he
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: can get 51%, and we would lose seven Senate seats.
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: And that is a number that would take us potentially
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: decades to get back.
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: And just to give people an idea why this is
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: happening geographically, think about states like Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania, the
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: Democrats have won forever. They are states that tend to
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: have more non-college educated voters than college educated voters, particularly
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: non-college educated white voters. And They have actually moved in
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: that direction. So as those voters tend to support Republicans
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: more and more over the years, that means Republicans are
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: having an easier time winning those states than they did before. Also,
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: a lot of those states in the Midwest and a
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: lot of rural states are sort of losing population to
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: some states with a lot of bigger cities. But the
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: problem is, as the college educated voters are moving to
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: those states with the bigger cities, those states are already blue.
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: And so adding a whole bunch more college educated voters,
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: it is, we're seeing it's helping in states like Georgia,
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: in states like Arizona, in states like Texas, but there
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: are not enough Georgias, Texases, and Arizonas to counter what's
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: going on in the rest of the country. That's basically
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: the heart of the geographic problem the Democrats face. And
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: it's a problem in the electoral college, but it's an
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: even bigger problem in the Senate. And this is, you know,
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: this is aside from The gerrymandering we always talk about
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: that screws up the House. This is like if there
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: were no gerrymandering at all, this would still be a
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: gigantic problem for Democrats.
• 32:02
  Speaker 3: It is.
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: Just to give you an example of how anti-democratic institution
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: the Senate is, it is now, right now, technically possible
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: for 18% of the U.S. population to represent a Senate majority.
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: Not good.
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: Not good. Not good. So that's Shor's diagnosis. His prescription
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: is where things get controversial. Even though it sounds pretty
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: simple to win back non-college educated voters of all races,
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: Democrats should talk a lot more about popular stuff and
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: talk a lot less about unpopular stuff. Sounds easy. It's
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: become known as popularism. And the basic reason it's controversial, though,
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: is that the policies that tend to poll well are
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: economically populist in nature, like letting Medicare negotiate for lower
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: prescription drug costs or taxing the richest 1%. The policies
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: that tend to poll poorly, especially among non-college educated voters,
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: are often around the issues of race and immigration, like
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: defunding the police or abolishing ICE. To add fuel to
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: the fire, Schor also believes that a big part of
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: the problem is that the Democratic Party is largely run
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: by young, progressive, highly educated, very online activists and donors
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: who don't have any connection to the less educated voters
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: of all races that Democrats need to win. As you
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: might imagine, there were quite a few dissenting views here,
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: including from good friends of the pod, Anat Shankar Osorio
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: and Carlos Odio. There was also a great rebuttal from
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: Jamel Bowie of the New York Times. Dan, do you
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: want to summarize some of the dissenting views here?
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: Yes, I think they all center around the feasibility of
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: this strategy. So point one that Anat Shankar Osorio has
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: made many times, including on this podcast, is voters do
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: not hear what Democrats say in a vacuum, right? It
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: is influenced by all the conversation around them, how the
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: news media covers it, what they see on Facebook, what
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: Republicans say. And so if you were to just say,
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: we are going to raise the salience of popular things
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: and reduce the salience of unpopular things, Democrats simply just
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: talking about popular things isn't going to solve that problem
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: or even go pretty far or something. The second point
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: is one that Ian Haney-Lopez, who worked with Anat and
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: Heather McGee on the race class narrative, has made, which
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: is we are probably past the point where it is
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: even possible in American politics to, even if you were
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: to agree with David that it would be in Democrats'
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: interest to talk less about race and immigration, to have
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: them be less prominent in voters' minds when they're making decisions,
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: we're probably well past that. Republicans have a It's really
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: a life or death issue for them as to whether
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: they like politically is to keep that front of mind.
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: So that's going to happen. Think of all the things
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: that have happened in recent years, everything that happened last year,
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: Black Lives Matter, Ferguson, the raising of immigration, Congress's failure
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: to do anything about immigration for all this time, the
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: challenges at the border, everything is just, it's always going
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: to be present. So you can't ignore it. You're going
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: to have to figure out how to address it. And
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: then there's another point that, or I'd say two other
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: points that people made. One is There's sort of a
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: test case here, which is Joe Biden has overwhelmingly done
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: really popular things. He passed really popular legislation, incredibly popular.
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: He is working to pass even more popular legislation and
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: his approval rating is underwater. So either people are not
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: hearing about the popular things he's doing or they are
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: not influenced by them. And that is something that I
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: think everyone who's on the popular side really has to
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: reckon with. And the other one is something that a
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: really smart political operative mentioned to you and I the
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: other day, which is How do you know what's going
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: to be popular? The Obama, the auto bailout is an
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: example everyone uses. We're going to talk about the 2012 campaign,
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: but that was sort of the tip of the spear
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: in that campaign. And when Obama did it, it was
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: incredibly unpopular. It turned out to be popular, right? So
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: it's pretty hard to reverse engineer your governing strategy or
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: policy agenda from what's going to be popular the next
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: time you run.
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: You wrote about this in the message box this week.
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: What's your view on a good prescription here?
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: This is a really hard– it is a really hard issue.
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: But I would just start out by saying I do
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: agree that talking about popular things is better than talking
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: about unpopular things.
• 36:31
  Speaker 4: What?
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: You know, look. If any of you out there are
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: thinking of opening a restaurant, my recommendation would be serve
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: good food, not bad food.
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: There you go.
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there you go.
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: Here at Crooked Media, we like to make good content.
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: Not bad content. Yeah.
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: I mean, like just, if you just did that.
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: Elijah sometimes believes that bad content gets just as much engagement, right?
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: So maybe, maybe there's a wrinkle to that, but generally
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: we believe good content is better than bad content.
• 36:55
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: Liberal Benny Johnson over here. You guys got working for you.
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: Poor Elijah's going on vacation.
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: Well, he also doesn't listen to the podcast, so it's
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: going to be weeks before someone tells him about this. Anywho,
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: but I think the debate, misses a much bigger problem
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: that Anat really hit at in this article and in
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: sort of my summary of what I think she believes
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: is in our time in politics, I would say 90%
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: of the time, energy, intellectual capital, and money on messaging
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: has been spent on figuring out what Democrats should say, right?
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: What's our version of Make America Great Again? What should
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: the bumper sticker say? What's our slogan? What's our narrative?
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: And 10% was spent on figuring out how to get
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: people to hear what we're saying. And That was true
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: in the year 2000. That was true 2004, 2008. And
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: it is still true now. And the problem is no
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: one is hearing what we're saying. Our message is getting
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: drowned out by a massive right-wing media infrastructure that is
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: sort of embodied by Fox and powered by Facebook. And
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: if we don't solve that problem or focus on that problem,
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: whether we're talking about popular things or unpopular things, we're
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: still going to live in a world where Republicans define
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: the political conversation. So we're constantly going to be responding
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: to them because we as a party are There are
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: some changes and some exceptions, and Crooked Media obviously is
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: at the forefront of that. But for the most part,
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: Democrats still depend on the mainstream traditional media to carry
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: their message to voters, who then take that message and
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: filter it through their own biases, their own interests. And
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: that is an absolutely doomed to fail strategy. And I
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: think all the energy focused on populism, which is just
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: that online debate can continue to happen. And it's a
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: proxy for a much bigger and important conversation. But we
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: have to focus on how we solve our messaging distribution problem.
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: And I will say that Democrats right now, or at
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: least Democratic strategists, usually turn to advertising as the way
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: to solve this problem. Now, I think that's a problem
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: because I think in a fractured media environment where we're
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: just like battered with all kinds of content all the time,
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: ads tend to fade into the background a little bit more.
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: They tend to just be noise. They tend to not
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: be authentic. Most of them haven't been updated in decades.
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: I mean, you talk about this all the time on
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: Campaign Experts React, but advertising is not the answer. I
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: continue to think about the conversation I had with Stephanie
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: Valencia at Ekis Research, former colleague of ours who talks
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: a lot about figuring out how to reach the Latino community.
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: And she always she talked to me about the example
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: of in South Florida in the last week of 2020.
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: You know, we dumped something like 13 million dollars worth
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: of ads there. Republicans bought our radio station for $ 350, 000
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: and they had some conservative radio down in South Florida
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: that did a lot more for them. People listening to
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: an actual radio show than just a bunch of ads
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: that sound like noise. And for some reason, we can't
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: get fucking progressive donors, the real rich ones, the grassroots donors,
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: to understand that their money would be better spent building
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: out a progressive media infrastructure that than it would be
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: to just dump more money into consultants who are running ads.
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: Do you know where that money went?
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: To Ozzy.
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: I'm not even joking about that. That's exactly the problem
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: is wealthy progressives who have an interest in media want
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: to invest in traditional media properties. They want to buy
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: The Atlantic or Time Magazine or create some fake pyramid
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: scream Ozzie thing instead of how are we going? How
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: do we, I have these policy beliefs. How do we
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: get those policy beliefs turned into actual policy? And part
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: of that is stop, is helping Democrats to stop getting
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: their ass kicked in the information war.
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: One more thing I want to hit on, you know,
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: Shore talks a lot about the Obama 2012 campaign as
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: a model for what Democrats need to do since Obama
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: in that campaign ran up huge margins with black and
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: Latino voters and won a hell of a lot more
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: non-college educated white voters than either Hillary Clinton or Joe Biden.
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: What do you think about that?
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: I mean, like the 2012 campaign is something that you
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: and I have argued should be the model for lots
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: of things. It was, that's the coalition that Obama won
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: with is the coalition that Democrats need to reconstitute in
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: order to have a chance at having the Senate majority
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: for longer than the next year to, you know, having
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: a straw, a, electoral college coalition that's more in accordance
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: with the size of our majority. That is what you need.
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: That's not what the math demands if you want to
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: keep winning Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin. Let's not forget, Obama won
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: Iowa and Ohio in that election, right? And almost won
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: North Carolina. It came about as close as Hillary and
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: Joe Biden did. And won Florida. Can't forget that. He
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: won Florida. And so when you can win, if you
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: can make Ohio, Iowa, Florida competitive along with the states
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: that Joe Biden made in competitive, then you have a
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: lot of paths to 270 and you're not living in
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: a world where you're just like 10,000 votes away from
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: Donald Trump stealing the presidency again. The problem with that
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: as an example is twofold. And I'm very curious to
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: hear your take on how the messaging of that campaign
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: would apply now. But it's just a very, it was
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: operating in a very different media environment. The mainstream media
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: was stronger. Facebook was weaker. Fox was evil, but less evil.
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: There was no OAN. Breitbart barely existed. We were on
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: par messaging and ads mattered more. And so you had
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: greater control of your narrative. The other thing is just
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: a lot's happened since then. And so the big thing
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: is Shor's point, a lot of people said is that
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: campaign was all about the economy. That wasn't a situation
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: where we wanted to talk about the economy and Romney
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: wanted to talk about cancel culture or immigration or anything
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: like that. Everyone wants to talk about the economy. So
• 43:01
  Speaker 2: that's a much easier thing. And like I said earlier,
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: I think a lot, so much happens then that it
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: just seems impossible that you're going to have a situation
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: where the Democrat and the Republican are both going to
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: want to run a campaign on the economy.
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: I think that's exactly right. I think the big difference
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: between 2012 and 2016 and 2020 was the opponent. And
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: this goes to Anat's point, right? No matter what you say,
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: your opponent has a say too. The other party has
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: a say in what gets talked about on a campaign,
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: no matter how disciplined your message is. And Barack Obama
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: had an opponent in Mitt Romney who wanted to basically
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: play on our field, right? Like wanted to talk about
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: the economy, even though it wasn't, he thought it was
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: a strength for him. It was not.
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: It could have been. I mean, unemployment wasn't 8% or
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: something or 7%.
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: But I also always remember, you know, Stuart Stevens, who
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: was Romney's chief strategist, would say, said this after the campaign,
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: that he really blanched when Romney started hitting the Benghazi
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: stuff hard because, you know, he thought it was bad.
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: But clearly in some polling and, you know, it was
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: basically a, it was a foreshadowing of the type of
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: attack that Donald Trump and the Republican Party of today
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: would run like on a daily basis, right? Like make
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: it about culture wars, make it about identity, make it
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: about something that's not just economic policy, because Democrats tend
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: to hold more popular positions on economic policy than Republicans.
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: And so I do think we benefited a lot from
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: Romney being our opponent. I don't know how Obama-Trump would
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: have gone in 2012. I think the other points you
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: mentioned about how things have changed since then and how
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: the media environment in particular has changed since then and demographics,
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: that demographically the country has changed since then, all probably
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: play a role in what would have been different. But
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: I do think the opponent mattered a lot.
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: But I think there's a couple of things about that
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: race that are, I think, really worth honing in on
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: that I think are instructive going forward, which is on
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: the surface, that was a debate about economic policy. Trickle
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: down versus middle out, tax cuts for corporations and the
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: rich versus investing in the middle class and the working class.
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: But that's not really what it was.
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: It was about identity.
• 45:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: It was... The great success of that campaign was it
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: turned the economy into an identity appeal, which is I,
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: Barack Obama, and even to you, your voters with less
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: than ideal racial views living in rural areas, even though
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: I am Barack Hussein Obama from Indonesia and Hawaii and
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: Harvard and everything else, I understand you. I'm the son
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: of a single mother who was on government assistance. Michelle
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: and I just paid off our student loans a while ago.
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: And I am on your side. And you see that
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: guy over there, the one with the car elevator who
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: made millions of dollars selling companies and firing you and
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: your family? I'm on your side. And he's there to
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: fight for them. And that appeal was incredibly important, especially
• 46:04
  Speaker 2: in the context of the recession, which is Mitt Romney,
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: he's with the guys who fucked up the economy and
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: then got rich on the solution while you all got
• 46:11
  Speaker 2: left behind. And what Democrats, those– all politics is identity politics, right?
• 46:18
  Speaker 2: Policy-based appeals– Especially today.
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: Always have been, I think. Always, always have been. It's
• 46:23
  Speaker 2: just we funneled that terminology into race– and gender and sexuality,
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: but that's not really what it is, right? It is,
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: we're just getting this like basically an Ezra Klein podcast,
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: but in Ezra Klein's book, Why We're Polarized, he talks
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: about how, remember those Buzzfeed quizzes that are like 37
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: ways you're from Ohio or 37 ways you went to
• 46:43
  Speaker 2: high school in the mid nineties. Those were the most
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: popular things on the internet because we are looking for
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: where we fit in this very crazy world. And politics
• 46:52
  Speaker 2: is that it's not just where you're from or who
• 46:55
  Speaker 2: you are, the color of your skin or anything else.
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: It– like you– identity-based appeals matter and are important. And
• 47:02
  Speaker 2: just think about– and this goes to the popular versus
• 47:06
  Speaker 2: unpopular sort of thing is if the Republicans are making
• 47:11
  Speaker 2: a cultural grievance identity appeal and we're making a policy-based appeal,
• 47:15
  Speaker 2: we're going to lose. You see those people over there, immigrants,
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: elitist people in Washington, Hollywood types, gay people, trans people,
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: they are changing America and that change is going to
• 47:28
  Speaker 2: hurt you and we're going to save your way of life.
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: And Democrats are like, we're going to mail you a
• 47:34
  Speaker 2: $ 300 check once a month. You in?
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: Well, and you know, this is why in the Biden campaign,
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: you saw them do this in the debate. They revived
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: it recently. that the fight over Build Back Better and
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: a lot of these proposals is Scranton versus Park Ave.
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: It was more of an identity-based appeal that Joe Biden
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: is the working class guy from Scranton and Donald Trump
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: is the rich asshole from Park Avenue. Trump, over the years, successfully,
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: even though he's a rich asshole, made himself seem like
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: some fucking working class populist. which was quite a feat.
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: But you saw Biden's attempt to do that was trying
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: to change that and to have an identity-based appeal that
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: wasn't just about economic policy. I think there was something
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: else to Obama in 2012 that Ezra and I were
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: tweeting about this. And, you know, Ezra was tweeting, I
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: think the truly underplayed part of Obama's politics is his
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: level of rhetorical patriotism and his genius at wrapping his
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: candidacy in a highly pro-American story. I think that, more
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: than moderation, is what liberals and leftists underestimate in his success. I...
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: Completely agree with this as someone who helped him write
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: a lot of these speeches. I thought his rhetorical patriotism
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: was also about was also more honest about America's faults
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: than a lot of politicians are, which is why it
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: worked for both folks on the left and folks in
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: the center and center right, maybe. And then, you know,
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: as we pointed out, that the right correctly understood that
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: Obama was doing something very dangerous for them, constructing a
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: patriotic story identity in which the real Americans are the
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: ones who recognize and work to overcome our flaws. That
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: is what I have been looking for in Democratic candidates
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: since then, is who can tell that kind of story.
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: I think that with his message about the soul of
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: America being at stake, like Biden did get close to that.
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: I also think for Obama, that message was wrapped up
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: in his identity as a biracial guy with the middle
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: name Hussein who came from the south side of Chicago,
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: but you know, grew up for a time in Indonesia
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: and then Hawaii, and we had a foot in many
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: different worlds, his identity and the story he told at
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: the 2004 convention about himself and his family were part
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: of his message and part of his appeal. And I
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: say that because, and I saw Amanda Lippman made this
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: point during this debate is that you cannot always separate
• 50:00
  Speaker 1: message from the messenger.
• 50:01
  Speaker 2: In fact, you can never separate it, right?
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: You, you can't, no, you can't.
• 50:05
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: You can't separate the message from the messenger. And that
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: part of the story you tell and the identity you
• 50:10
  Speaker 1: convey has to do with who you are, not just
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: what you say. And that's something that we need to
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: keep in mind with candidates as well. I do think
• 50:19
  Speaker 1: in terms of like other other things that strategists and
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: organizers can take away from this debate. Do you have
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: any other last last takeaways for folks?
• 50:29
  Speaker 2: Just I think we have to. We have to understand
• 50:34
  Speaker 2: why the Republican message has been so powerful in this
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: media environment and understand all of the incentives that ensure
• 50:43
  Speaker 2: that identity-based cultural appeals travel so far in this media
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: environment and think about how we take our message and
• 50:51
  Speaker 2: our agenda and package it in ways that can actually
• 50:53
  Speaker 2: move in this media environment. Your point about ads is
• 50:58
  Speaker 2: really important. Ads certainly matter. We need to spend more
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: money as a party and more creative ways to get
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: our message in front of voters. But Donald Trump almost
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: won in the middle of a pandemic that he had
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: absolutely screwed up against a great candidate running a better campaign,
• 51:13
  Speaker 2: and Joe Biden had tons more money. That's because Republicans
• 51:16
  Speaker 2: dominated the organic media space, the quote-unquote earned media space.
• 51:19
  Speaker 2: We've got to have to figure out how to make
• 51:20
  Speaker 2: our message travel that way because our policy-based message is,
• 51:24
  Speaker 2: ain't breaking through. Like we've seen in the polls that
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: show the only thing people know about Biden's agenda is
• 51:28
  Speaker 2: the price tag. And that's suboptimal.
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: And I will say that, you know, even though I
• 51:34
  Speaker 1: used to write speeches for a living, I'm not someone
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: who thinks that like a good message can fix everything.
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: But one of the only things a campaign can control
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: is what they say, what the candidate says, what the
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: field organizers say, what the volunteers say, what the ads say. Like,
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: you can't control what your opponent says. You can't control
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: what the activists in your party are saying. You can't
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: control what the press is saying. You can only control
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: what you say. And I do think that's why it's
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: really important to come up with a message that's appealing.
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: I also think, look, the idea that we can afford
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: to keep losing non-college educated voters of all races because
• 52:10
  Speaker 1: there's some bigger pool of college educated voters just waiting
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: for us to knock on their doors is a fallacy.
• 52:16
  Speaker 1: And I do think that like sometimes, and by the way,
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: that is back to the diagnosis, that the diagnosis part,
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: most people agree with. And I do think sometimes we
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: lull ourselves into a complacency that like, oh, there are
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: a whole bunch of progressives who think just like us
• 52:30
  Speaker 1: out there and they're just not voting that often. And
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: if we just go knock on their door and tell
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: them our message, they're going to come vote. Because the
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: truth is like even mobilizing younger, more diverse people who
• 52:40
  Speaker 1: don't usually vote requires them, requires persuading them to understand
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: that casting a ballot is worth it. And that takes work.
• 52:49
  Speaker 1: And I don't think that we do the work of
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: persuasion well enough. Like Anat has said this on our pod.
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: She said this many times, the job of a good
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: message isn't to say what's popular, but to make popular
• 52:58
  Speaker 1: what needs to be said. And I don't think that
• 53:03
  Speaker 1: we've thought enough about the work of making popular what
• 53:05
  Speaker 1: needs to be said, because I think we are in
• 53:09
  Speaker 1: a lot of Twitter echo chambers. And sometimes we just
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: say what we believe and say what we think is right.
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: And it is the right thing to believe, but we
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: have to figure out how to say it in a
• 53:20
  Speaker 1: way that is appealing to the most voters possible. And
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: Ian Haney Lopez had a great point on this as
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: he was writing about this. Again, Ian Haney Lopez worked
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: with Anat, worked with Heather McGee, all of them on
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: the race class narrative that we've talked about a lot
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: on this pod, a lot on the wilderness. He said,
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: or he wrote, democratic messages alienate voters when they are
• 53:41
  Speaker 1: predicated on a sense of identity that voters do not share.
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: For instance, defund the police and abolish ICE are deeply
• 53:47
  Speaker 1: connected to a story of the police and ICE as
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: white supremacist institutions that oppress communities of color. In turn,
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: this story depicts the country as locked into a historic
• 53:56
  Speaker 1: conflict between white people and people of color. It thus
• 53:59
  Speaker 1: asks white voters to see themselves as members of an
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: oppressive group they must help to disempower, and it asks
• 54:04
  Speaker 1: voters of color to see themselves as members of widely
• 54:07
  Speaker 1: hated groups that they must rally to defend. This framing
• 54:10
  Speaker 1: is acceptable to many who are college-educated, white and of
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: color alike, but not to majorities of voters. And that's
• 54:18
  Speaker 1: a problem. You know, and I don't think and I
• 54:21
  Speaker 1: don't know that we have taken that problem seriously enough.
• 54:24
  Speaker 1: And that is not to say that we should not
• 54:27
  Speaker 1: be talking about police reform and reform of ICE and
• 54:32
  Speaker 1: reform of our immigration system, which I think is Shor's point.
• 54:35
  Speaker 1: And I don't think it's it's it's not Heather's and
• 54:38
  Speaker 1: Anat's and Ian's. It's not our point. Like I think
• 54:41
  Speaker 1: we need to figure out how to talk about them better, right?
• 54:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's right. There are a couple other
• 54:45
  Speaker 2: things that I think are– I've sort of thought of
• 54:48
  Speaker 2: as we've been really pouring through the immense literature on
• 54:50
  Speaker 2: the popularism debate, which.
• 54:52
  Speaker 1: I– We're just doing the third season of The Wilderness now.
• 54:55
  Speaker 2: Well, it's like this is the quippy version of The Wilderness.
• 55:01
  Speaker 2: But I– RIP. It's funny because I feel like we
• 55:05
  Speaker 2: also have to apologize to Tommy since on Sunday morning–
• 55:08
  Speaker 2: Tommy texted that he was so sick of the data
• 55:10
  Speaker 2: nerd fights.
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: Tommy would be so pissed about that. He's skipping right
• 55:14
  Speaker 1: through this section.
• 55:16
  Speaker 2: I had to tell him that was 1,500 words into
• 55:18
  Speaker 2: a 3,000-word essay on it. That was sad. But anywho,
• 55:23
  Speaker 2: I think there are two things that I think that
• 55:25
  Speaker 2: would help us as a party sort of address the
• 55:28
  Speaker 2: things that everyone's brought up. One is the language we
• 55:32
  Speaker 2: use and how we talk about our strategies is we
• 55:35
  Speaker 2: should use persuade more. for every conversation with a voter.
• 55:40
  Speaker 2: We have persuasion universe and GOTV universe, get out the
• 55:42
  Speaker 2: vote universe. And that is a really bad way of
• 55:44
  Speaker 2: thinking about it. It's a poor understanding of how voters
• 55:47
  Speaker 2: actually think. And it seems like a small thing to
• 55:49
  Speaker 2: use the word persuade, but it actually, I think, affects
• 55:51
  Speaker 2: how we think about the messaging. GOTV is, the election's
• 55:56
  Speaker 2: on this day, you can go vote here. And persuade
• 55:58
  Speaker 2: is raising the stakes of it. And I think the
• 56:01
  Speaker 2: Biden campaign did a lot of really smart things on this,
• 56:03
  Speaker 2: as I understand it. But As a party, I should
• 56:05
  Speaker 2: think about that. The other thing that's in the Ian
• 56:06
  Speaker 2: Haney Lopez media post, which I highly recommend to everyone,
• 56:09
  Speaker 2: is he uses the term conflicted voter instead of swing
• 56:14
  Speaker 2: voter or moderate voter. And conflicted voter because they have,
• 56:19
  Speaker 2: in many cases, these voters have very orthodox liberal views
• 56:24
  Speaker 2: on economic issues, $ 15 minimum wage, universal health care, protect
• 56:27
  Speaker 2: Social Security and Medicare. These are the ones who are
• 56:30
  Speaker 2: agreeing in all these polls with the Build Back Better agenda.
• 56:33
  Speaker 2: But they have conservative views on race, culture, religion, immigration.
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: And so they're pulled constantly in different directions. And we
• 56:42
  Speaker 2: have to think of them that way as opposed to
• 56:44
  Speaker 2: just a bunch of Joe Mansions in exurban Milwaukee, right?
• 56:49
  Speaker 2: And I think thinking about it in that way and
• 56:50
  Speaker 2: how you appeal to them and how do you get
• 56:52
  Speaker 2: to this side of the conflict as opposed to that
• 56:54
  Speaker 2: side of the conflict is really important.
• 56:56
  Speaker 1: Well, and where the race class narrative came from is
• 57:01
  Speaker 1: that Haney and McGee and Anat and all those folks
• 57:05
  Speaker 1: who've worked on it say that like the way to
• 57:07
  Speaker 1: avoid having the debate be framed as white voters versus
• 57:12
  Speaker 1: non-white voters, which does not help Democrats win, is to
• 57:17
  Speaker 1: basically shift it. So you say you you make the
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: argument that a powerful few are using racism and xenophobia
• 57:27
  Speaker 1: and misogynism to pit all of us against each other.
• 57:31
  Speaker 1: to pit white and black and brown and men. That
• 57:36
  Speaker 1: is the message that they suggest, which is to not
• 57:39
  Speaker 1: avoid talking about race, to not avoid talking about immigration,
• 57:43
  Speaker 1: but talk about these attacks as tools of Republicans to
• 57:46
  Speaker 1: divide us against each other so that they can profit
• 57:49
  Speaker 1: at the expense of the rest of us. And that,
• 57:52
  Speaker 1: to me, I found that more persuasive in a very
• 57:55
  Speaker 1: difficult debate than just about anything else that I've read
• 57:58
  Speaker 1: in terms of message. And I don't think that's like
• 58:00
  Speaker 1: I don't think it's a silver bullet and there's like
• 58:02
  Speaker 1: research on it both ways. But I do think that's,
• 58:05
  Speaker 1: you know, that's the most that's the most I've been persuaded. OK,
• 58:17
  Speaker 1: before we go, we wanted to talk about the recent
• 58:19
  Speaker 1: Reuters investigation that revealed Donald Trump's favorite propaganda network, One
• 58:24
  Speaker 1: America News, has been funded by none other than AT
• 58:28
  Speaker 1: & T. The reporting is based in part on sworn
• 58:31
  Speaker 1: testimony from OAN founder and CEO Robert Herring, who told
• 58:35
  Speaker 1: the court that AT & T executives actually came up
• 58:38
  Speaker 1: with the idea for OAN. Quote, from his sworn testimony,
• 58:44
  Speaker 1: they told us they wanted a conservative network. They only
• 58:47
  Speaker 1: had one, which was Fox News, and they had seven
• 58:50
  Speaker 1: others on the other side. When they said that, I
• 58:53
  Speaker 1: jumped to it and built one. Thank you, AT & T.
• 58:57
  Speaker 1: OAN hasn't just been promoted by Trump. 500,000 people downloaded
• 59:00
  Speaker 1: the news site to their phones after the January 6th insurrection,
• 59:04
  Speaker 1: where pictures show one rioter carrying an OAN flag. Here's
• 59:08
  Speaker 1: a clip of... some of what you can hear if
• 59:10
  Speaker 1: you tune into OAN.
• 59:12
  Speaker 5: If gender is destroyed, doesn't that destroy traditional gender roles?
• 59:17
  Speaker 5: And if gender roles are destroyed, doesn't that destroy gendered relationships?
• 59:22
  Speaker 5: And if gendered relationships are destroyed, doesn't that destroy traditional marriage?
• 59:28
  Speaker 5: And if traditional marriage is destroyed, Doesn't that destroy the
• 59:31
  Speaker 5: family unit? And if people aren't dependent on their families,
• 59:35
  Speaker 5: then who do they depend on?
• 59:38
  Speaker 3: That's right.
• 59:39
  Speaker 5: The government, which is the goal of liberals in the
• 59:42
  Speaker 5: first place. Don't let transgender penguins fool you.
• 59:46
  Speaker 1: Didn't expect that at the end.
• 59:47
  Speaker 2: That is quite the twist. Yes.
• 59:49
  Speaker 1: What a payoff. What a payoff. You go through that
• 59:53
  Speaker 1: whole thing. You're like, oh, it's typical right wing bullshit.
• 59:55
  Speaker 1: Where's that? Boom. transgendered penguin gotcha.
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 2: So good so first of all.
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 1: Fuck at & t especially like the the conversation we
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 1: just had about the need for progressive media institutions and
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 1: we have the fucking one of the largest telecom companies
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 1: in the world funding a pro fucking insurrection right-wing network.
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 2: And what's even more frustrating to me than that is
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 2: the reason why they did which is just yet another
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 2: piece of evidence that the Republicans have so overwhelmingly won
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 2: the war on media that when the head of AT
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 2: & T or the folks at AT & T tell
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 2: Robert Herring they have seven networks on their side, are
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 2: they talking about the Crooked Media Channel on AT & T?
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 3: No.
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 2: They're talking about CNN, right? They have convinced the world
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 2: and a lot of social media beliefs, which is they
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 2: are inherently liberal, and the only way to have balance
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 2: is to add a right-wing propaganda network. So for every
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 2: CNN you need an OAN.
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: For the– I guarantee you that the people that run
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 1: AT & T also believe that when they bought Warner
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 1: that HBO was part of that too.
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 1: And you know what? And by the way, good for
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 1: John Oliver who works for a show at HBO for
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 1: like tearing into AT & T over this on this
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 1: week's show who are his corporate bosses. Well, were.
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 3: Were. Yeah. Right. Worth.
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 1: That's fair.
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah. But so it is like, it's insane. It's the
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 2: same reason why the Sunday show panels often have a
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 2: Democrat or a reporter from like the New York times
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 2: and two Republicans, because even they, like these are people
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 2: in media who believe are so in their own head
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 2: about their quote unquote liberal bias that they have to
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 2: put two Republicans on to balance out, you know, Peter
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 2: Baker is one instance.
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 1: So since our listeners might not be familiar with, um,
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 1: Everything that's going on over there at OAN. We thought
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 1: we'd play a little game where I read three statements
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 1: about the network, and Dan, you tell me which one
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 1: is actually not true. The game is called, of course,
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 1: Two Truths and a Big Lie.
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 2: Can I tell you that we play this game, not
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 2: the OAN version, but the actual version at the dinner
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 2: table many nights in our house.
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 1: Oh, wow.
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah. We used to play I Spy, then we added
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 2: this wrinkle. I wasn't sure that a game that rewarded
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 2: dishonesty was a good thing to bring to.
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 1: The dinner table, but- Yeah, how did Kyla do?
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 2: She's really, she's alarmingly good at it.
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 3: Uh-oh.
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 2: Yes, we're going to regret it when she's like 14,
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 2: for sure.
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 1: All right, first round.
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 5: One.
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 1: Rudy Giuliani claimed in a deposition that OAN reporter Christina
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 1: Bob would run her articles past the Trump campaign while
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 1: volunteering on Trump's legal team. Two, OAN host Dan Ball
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 1: did an entire segment about the COVID vaccine making your
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 1: arm magnetic, including an interview with someone who now claims
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 1: to be magnetic and have a metal taste in her mouth. Three,
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 1: OAN host Dan Ball did a segment where he pretended
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 1: to sleep on a MyPillow pillow while sleep talking about
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 1: how the 2020 election was rigged.
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 2: Let me think. This is really hard to figure out.
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 2: I'm really trying to use some... It's time for some
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 2: game theory here. The pillow thing seems too ridiculous to
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 2: be true, which means it probably is. So I'm going
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 2: to go with the magnetic metallic mouth thing.
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 1: Incorrect. It was the pillow. It wasn't going with your
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 1: gut on that, man.
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 2: God, Travis never would have written the game like that.
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 1: Believe it or not, the magnetic thing. Very true. That happened.
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 1: Second round. Number one, OAN reporter Chanel Rion pushed a
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 1: conspiracy that COVID was developed in a lab in North
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 1: Carolina and was a plot by the deep state to
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 1: destroy the Trump economy. Homegrown in North Carolina. Who knew?
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 1: Number two, OAN reporter Christina Bob sold, quote, Sleepy Joe's
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 1: sleep supplements. to raise money for the Arizona audit. And
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 1: number three, OAN reporter Dan Ball aired a video of
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 1: himself speaking out at his kid's school district meeting against
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 1: mask mandates where he called masks, quote, facial diapers before
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 1: they cut his mic.
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 2: The facial diaper thing has to be true. I think
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 2: it's the Sleepy Joe sleeping supplements is my guess.
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 1: You are correct. You are correct. Facial diapers is way
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 1: too crazy to make up. But I will be saying
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 1: that from now on. I will be calling them facial diapers.
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 1: Final round. Number one, OAN ran a segment last month
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 1: that ended with a guest alleging that Democrats George Soros,
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 1: Barack Obama, and the Chinese Communist Party are planning a
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 1: civil war, saying, quote, I promise you it's coming. We've
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 1: got to fight if we're going to survive. So that
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 1: last part, not as funny as the first part. Number two,
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 1: OAN reporter Dan Ball praised Nicki Minaj. for not trying
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 1: to please Democrats, saying she refuses to act like a, quote,
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 1: House N-word. Only he actually said the N-word. OAN reporter
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 1: number three, OAN reporter Christina Bob, said in a segment
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 1: that Donda is Kanye's greatest album. Huh.
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 2: This is a very hip-hop-centric set of questions here. I'm
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 2: going to say this is a trick question, and they're
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 2: all true.
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 1: No, no. The number three was not true. She did
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 1: not say that Donda is Kanye's greatest album. That's just
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 1: you and Tommy who believe that.
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 2: That is not my position. I have been distorted by you.
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 2: I think we both said it was better than we
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 2: thought it was going to be.
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 1: You know, I have only listened to your Spotify list
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 1: that is just the tracks that you thought were good
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 1: because he just did so much on that album. There's
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 1: just too many fucking tracks. It was very self-indulgent.
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 2: Kanye West, get out of here. No one has time
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 2: for the whole thing.
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 1: I know. What a surprise.
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 2: I thought the Donda thing might be true because it's
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 2: his first real post-MAGA moment album. So I thought maybe there.
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 1: Was a chance. Of course, they want to own that, right?
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 2: MAGA Nation would rally to support Kanye West. That's what
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 2: I thought might be a possibility.
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 1: But in reality, they probably have not listened to Donda,
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 1: I'm sure. All right. Well, look, you got one out
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 1: of three, so that's not bad. You know what? You're
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 1: not an OAN fan. What can we say?
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 2: I have to watch more OAN?
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 1: Let's spin it positively. Yes. That's all we have for today.
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 1: Thanks to our pal Jen Psaki for joining us. And
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 1: everyone have a great weekend and don't watch OAN.
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 2: Bye, everyone.
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 1: Pod Save America is a Crooked Media production. The executive
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 1: producer is Michael Martinez. Our senior producer is Flavia Casas.
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 1: Our producer is Haley Mews. And Olivia Martinez is our
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 1: associate producer. It's mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Kyle
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 1: Seglin is our sound engineer. Thanks to Tanya Somanator, Katie Long,
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 1: Roman Papadimitriou, Brian Semmel, Caroline Reston, Madison Holman, and Justine
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 1: Howe for production support. And to our digital team, Elijah Cohn,
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 1: Phoebe Bradford, and Milo Kim, who film and upload these
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 1: episodes as videos at youtube.com slash crookedmedia.