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Disease, Broken Dreams, and Devotion to Jesus with Laura Zifer · True Comfort

• Teasi Cannon (00:02) I'm TC and I want to welcome you to true comfort where it's our desire to live out 2nd Corinthians chapter 1 verses 3 and 4 which assure us that we have a God who comforts us in all our afflictions and encourage us to take the comfort we've received and share it with others. And I also want to welcome my guest Laura Ziefer. Laura, thank you so much for joining us today. Dessert Rose (00:26) Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to spend this time with you and get to share some things that we're both passionate about. Teasi Cannon (00:33) Yeah. Well, before we do, I'm going to read a little bit of your bio because I always, I never want to get it wrong. ⁓ Just to let listeners know a little bit about who you are. So Laura is a Christian apologist, writer and speaker. She's the founder of an Affair with Reason and co-host of the Night and Rose Show podcast. She graduated from Duke University with a bachelor's in public policy, earned her master's degree from Denver Seminary and is currently working on her doctor of ministry in public theology. from Birmingham Theological Seminary. She has ministered in over 30 countries on five continents and has seen firsthand how false worldviews harm and destroy God's image bearers, while the Christian worldview leads people and societies toward human flourishing. As an apologist, she shares evidence for the biblical worldview and discusses how our worldview ought to impact every area of life, from our relationships to our public policy and economics. Her blog, previous interviews and speaking requests can be found at her website, which I will put in the show notes, but it is an affairwithreason.com. And she also has a 20 lesson course ⁓ called Islam Foundations that is available at the Women in Apologetics website, which Women in Apologetics is actually how I first met you. I think we met ⁓ maybe three years ago. ⁓ I think it's been three years now ⁓ where, I'm gonna X out of this thing, yeah. Dessert Rose (01:54) Yes. Yeah. Teasi Cannon (02:03) We were both speaking at the annual Women in Apologetics Conference, which I would encourage listeners who are women and ministry leaders to look at Women in Apologetics website because they have all these resources, including your class. They've got other courses, how to read the Bible from that all the way to different worldviews and that. But I remember when we first met, it didn't take long for me to just Dessert Rose (02:05) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes. Teasi Cannon (02:33) sense, not in some weird mystical way, but just from your presence, from your personality, that you have such a genuine love for the body of Christ and that you have, like I think anyone that's watching this in video can even look at you and see that you have an abiding joy and knowing what I know about parts of your past story, your upbringing and your ministry today, Dessert Rose (02:49) Thank you. Teasi Cannon (03:00) and how difficult even where these countries are and these topics that you focus on, seeing joy in your face, you can know for sure this is a God anchored joy. This is a joy that is anchored in the reliability and the love, the reliability of God's word and his reliable love for us as his children. So. Dessert Rose (03:23) Absolutely. Teasi Cannon (03:27) I am really eager for our listeners to hear from you today. So just as a reminder, even though I know I've just kind of reminded us what this podcast is about, invite each week, I'm inviting a guest who has in some way intentionally studied the evidence for the biblical worldview to share a personal story or of heartbreak or maybe even it's an ongoing struggle. painful struggle or and then how God has comforted them through that pain or struggle and specifically what is the evidence that gives my guest confidence to know that trusting in God's promises is not a fool's errand and so my prayer for these conversations is that everyone who's listening will will just see that it isn't ⁓ It isn't unusual for us as Christians to suffer and experience heartbreak that we will see we're not alone in that, that we will, like I said, see that we are not fools for putting our faith in God and believing in his comfort and that we will be better equipped to counsel our own hearts through future pain and suffering and also better equipped to encourage others who are hurting. And so that is what Laura has. agreed to do for us today. And again, I just want to thank you. ⁓ I do want to say one last thing before I open it up and we can hear from Laura is that these conversations are not pre-scripted. And so I don't always have any idea of what the content is going to be. And sometimes we can talk about things that are painful and even considered triggering to some people. So I just want to give that little bit of content. Dessert Rose (05:05) Mm-hmm. Teasi Cannon (05:20) I guess disclaimer, but just just for people to know we talk about hard things, but for the glory of God to get to the comfort and the good part. And so with that, Laura, thank you again. I'm going to just let you start where ⁓ God has prompted you to start today. Dessert Rose (05:38) Yeah, thank you so much. It was actually challenging to pick something to talk about. ⁓ I think certainly there were numerous ⁓ hardships that I've experienced that we could talk about for well over an hour. But I want to talk about an a kind of a persistent health challenge that started before I was a Christian and has continued at least certainly into the last couple of years. Right now I'm doing great, but this is like a 30 year struggle or more. Teasi Cannon (06:27) That's good. Dessert Rose (06:36) ⁓ It's important to me, you know, I think a lot of times when we share our testimonies, we want to tell the exciting things that God has done, but as a result, a lot of times what ends up happening is we all collectively kind of give the impression that we struggle before we know Christ, and then we come to Christ and then everything is easy and smooth sailing and wonderful and He takes away every struggle we've ever had. And so that's part of the reason I wanted to share something that's been so ongoing and ⁓ Teasi Cannon (06:57) Mm-hmm. Dessert Rose (07:06) ⁓ So when I was in high school, I lived and trained at a tennis academy for my junior and senior year. I was working really hard in academics and in tennis. I was also noticing that I got sick really, really easily. Even if I didn't really know of anyone sick around me, certainly if someone who was a little bit sick came near me, if it was just kind of, if they had a... Teasi Cannon (07:22) Hmm. Dessert Rose (07:33) minor cold that was just a minor inconvenience, it would turn into two weeks of me unable to move and just horrifically ill. I went to college, ⁓ went to Duke University, I was ⁓ varsity athlete there on full scholarship. I don't want to give the impression I was just in bed all day every day. were top two in the country. We were top five the entire time I was there. Teasi Cannon (07:41) Wow. Dessert Rose (08:03) Top four, think, the entire time I was there. ⁓ But ⁓ as I was working, again, really hard in both athletics and academics, least 40 hours a week of tennis, at least 40 hours a week of academics, we were also in the gym, on the track, et cetera, I saw this getting sick easily kind of increasing and the intensity of the sickness getting. even kind of worse. ⁓ And I started experiencing some major muscle cramping in my legs, especially. And this kind of culminated at my sophomore year, I believe it was. I was at the National Clay Court Championships and I was in the round of eight, the quarterfinals round. There are eight players remaining. And I was winning 6-1, 5-0, 40-0. So if you know anything at all about tennis, I had to win one more point and the other girl had to win a whole lot of more points. I haven't counted them. However, she needed to win all the points. And I served and as I bent my legs down for the serve, then all of my muscles just gave out. Teasi Cannon (09:12) wow. Yeah ⁓ Wow. Dessert Rose (09:31) popped out kind of like tensed up and I fell to the ground screaming and yelling, crying and ⁓ the ⁓ coaches came out, tried massaging my legs, called the ⁓ ambulance. I went to the ER. I was told that I had absolutely no nutrients in my body, which was very confusing because I ate about six times a day at that time. my coaches would even, whenever we went to lunch, my coaches would order an extra Subway sandwich because they knew if I went to a third set, I would need to eat in the 10 minute break that we got. And ⁓ I ate a lot and ⁓ they knew what I was eating. I was eating what I was told. We did a lot of carbo loading for athletic competition and such. ⁓ I was also experiencing just such a heaviness and exhaustion. It felt like my body weighed Teasi Cannon (10:03) Gosh. Yeah. Wow. Dessert Rose (10:29) a ton and it was hard to stand up, it hard to get out of bed. There was an occasion when I was stretching after running on the track with my team and I fell asleep on the track. ⁓ Just odd things like that. my coach sent me to a couple doctors. They said, nothing's wrong with you. He sent me to a nutritionist. She said, and this is at Duke Medical Center. These are not dumb people. Teasi Cannon (10:43) Wow. Right. Dessert Rose (10:57) She said that I was eating perfectly, the keep up what I was doing. ⁓ And so then my coach sent me to a psychiatrist who said, well, it must all be in your head because your medical tests all look perfect. I knew this was not in my head. The ER doctors who had seen me would have testified ⁓ under penalty of law that this was and risked their medical licenses. Teasi Cannon (11:09) Wow. Mm-hmm. Dessert Rose (11:27) to testify that this could not be in my head. You could physically see my muscles bursting out of my legs ⁓ and my inability to walk and things like that. But the psychiatrist who determined it was all in my head put me on Zoloft, which then caused me to experience depression, deep, dark depression that involved some... Teasi Cannon (11:37) Yeah, wow. Dessert Rose (11:56) ⁓ thoughts of suicidality and everything else and just kept getting darker and darker and worse and worse. This ended up, I finished my college career well, but these health issues ended my tennis career. I had been expected to be one of the best players in the world as far as talent and work ethic and everything. had everything going for me. Nobody could really figure out what on earth was going on. Teasi Cannon (11:59) Mm. Dessert Rose (12:26) I guess the short story is this kind of, I stopped playing tennis, I still would experience muscle cramping and fear of muscle cramping at times, even when that wasn't happening, throughout my 20s and early 30s. And in my mid 30s, I saw a naturopathic doctor who discovered that I have celiac disease. so I am, so, Teasi Cannon (12:36) Yeah. Wow. Dessert Rose (12:55) I can't eat wheat, rye or barley. I'm also allergic to spelt, which is another grain. And so, you know, if you think about carboloading, and certainly in the nineties, when I was competing, I don't know what coaches are saying today, but in the nineties, you know, we went to bagel shops for breakfast, we went to Subway for lunch, and we went to Italian restaurants and were told to order pasta for dinner. And so I was poisoning my body and with celiac disease, Teasi Cannon (13:05) Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Dessert Rose (13:25) When you eat wheat or rye or barley, the part of the body that absorbs nutrients is basically paralyzed and you are unable to absorb any other nutrients that you're eating. Teasi Cannon (13:37) It's amazing that you were able to achieve. mean, I don't want to interrupt, like, I'm just, it's amazing. Think of what you accomplished that was rigorous physical sport with that disease. It's amazing that it didn't happen sooner. Dessert Rose (13:41) No, please do it, yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it is. It is. I look back at it and I don't know how I was able to do what I was able to do. So, right. Yeah, exactly. On the one hand, it's almost too much to think about because I know that if I was able to accomplish all of that, be one of the best players in the country, in the world ⁓ with celiac disease while carboloading with wheat, who knows what... ⁓ Teasi Cannon (13:59) Yeah, that's mind-blowing. Right. yeah. Dessert Rose (14:21) would have happened if I had known. But Teasi Cannon (14:23) Mm-hmm. Dessert Rose (14:24) at the same time, I also see God's sovereign hand in it. ⁓ And as I'm sure we'll talk about later, my hope is not in this world. We all experience disappointment and loss of dreams and goals and failures and everything else in this world. And if this is where our hope is, God help us. ⁓ But the celiac disease diagnosis Teasi Cannon (14:27) Yeah. Yeah. Dessert Rose (14:52) was really helpful, needless to say. I changed the way I was eating. That was an incredibly difficult process. ⁓ Eating has always been difficult for me anyway. ⁓ My parents would have to rush me to the ER when I was a baby. As it turns out, I probably had celiac disease. That's why I was getting rushed to the ER as an infant constantly. ⁓ Teasi Cannon (14:58) Hmm. Right, yeah. Dessert Rose (15:21) But, this diagnosis, and as hard as it was to change everything I ate and while not really loving food anyway and all of that, it was worth it. It was absolutely worth it. I have not experienced any sort of muscle cramping, severe exhaustion, cloudiness of thinking, all those things that I was experiencing that are pretty typical celiac. symptoms. I don't experience those anymore. I'm so incredibly thankful. But ⁓ yeah, I was still finding though that I would get sick a lot more easily than others and I would still get ⁓ sicker than others. so ⁓ even after changing my diet and everything, example, when I was living in Atlanta, I spent, I was, Teasi Cannon (15:56) That's amazing. Dessert Rose (16:20) teaching some kids ⁓ in their home. There were six kids. I taught how to speak English and read and write and do math and everything else. And one of the boys had rhinovirus, which is just common cold. And ⁓ I caught that from him and it turned into life-threatening pneumonia for me. And so I spent a week in the hospital fighting for my life. ⁓ And when all the tests were done and everything, the doctors were just blown away because it was Teasi Cannon (16:34) Hmm. Wow. Dessert Rose (16:50) Rhinovirus, it was the common cold that caused an apparently healthy 40 year old, I think it was about four, 39, 40 years old, to have to fight for her life. They said, is very odd. Something else is going on with your immune system. And in 2023, anyone who's known me since then may recall that I, certainly if you follow me on Facebook, I was posting pretty frequently, or if you get my personal news, letter updates. was asking for prayer regularly. was coughing. ⁓ I developed this cough that lasted pretty much the entire year. I had like a six-week respite in the middle of summer. But otherwise, I was coughing violently. I wasn't able to do my podcast very much that year. I canceled some speaking engagements for conferences. At one conference, I went Teasi Cannon (17:25) Mm-hmm. Dessert Rose (17:48) I spoke ⁓ and I had to stop my talk halfway through and cancel the later talk in the day. doctors were trying every kind of prescription. Nothing was working. It was such violent coughing that I was vomiting. So again, getting my needed nutrients is a challenge for me and has been my entire life. And now I'm getting it done and I'm vomiting. So ⁓ not fun, but... Teasi Cannon (17:52) Wow. Mm. Well. Dessert Rose (18:18) Eventually, I was sent to an allergy specialist. Turns out I'm allergic to earth. So that's a bummer, because right now there are no other places where humans can live. I am allergic to everything, to dust, all the grasses, all the pollen, all the trees, all the animals, all the molds, all the things. And so the doctor told me, Teasi Cannon (18:29) So you mean like everything, not dirt. You're not allergic to dirt. You're allergic to everything. Wow, Laura. Wow. Dessert Rose (18:48) I guess the good news is we know what the problem is. Your immune system is overtaxed because you are always fighting off everything around you. The bad news is this is not necessary. There's one more good news. There's one thing we can try, which is allergy shots. About 85 % of people respond really, really well to allergy shots. The bad news is for the there's no backup plan at this point. I don't know what to tell you except maybe try to start. Teasi Cannon (18:55) you Dessert Rose (19:17) thinking about, you know, if it doesn't work, where in the Caribbean would you live? Or can you afford a cruise ship or something like that? So, because out in the middle of the water with the salt air and everything, I do really well there, you know. So, I started allergy shots in the late fall of 2023. By the spring of 2024, where I had spent three or four weeks coughing violently, I, instead of three or four months, like in 2023, I actually just had about a rough two weeks in 2024 in the spring. And instead of having a rough three or four months in the fall, I had a rough week in the fall. Now in 2025, this is September, I have not had any coughing issues this year at all. And I haven't been sick since 2023 at all. Teasi Cannon (19:55) Okay. Great. that's great. So the shots are working. Dessert Rose (20:17) It looks like the shots are working. Yes, the shots. Teasi Cannon (20:19) ⁓ praise God. I was anticipating you saying they weren't working. was like, no, that's so great. Dessert Rose (20:23) The shots, yeah, and the shots accompanied by lots and lots of prayer. So thank you to everyone who has prayed for me. ⁓ I am so incredibly grateful. I think, you know, part of my joy is that I'm joyful when I can breathe because I know what it's like not to be able to breathe. I'm joyful when I can be active. I love being active. I'm involved. I got my black belt in martial arts a couple months ago. Teasi Cannon (20:31) that's such good news. Yeah. I saw that. Dessert Rose (20:52) Super excited about that. Teasi Cannon (20:53) That's impressive. Dessert Rose (20:54) It's so much fun. I love things like that. And I enjoy life, but I've been so sick so much of my life that just any of the things that I love have been hard. there are other things that, like I mentioned, I could have... talked about ⁓ I lost my husband a few years ago. think most people know that. ⁓ All sorts of ⁓ various challenges that I could have talked about that are big deal, but that's what God put on my heart for this particular conversation. Teasi Cannon (21:38) Yeah, well, and that's a lot. And I think it's, I know we're not going to talk in detail at all about the other hard things, but knowing for the listeners to know that you've been going through all this physical stuff and also have had several other very deep heartbreaks in the midst of trying to be able to just even function physically. So. Dessert Rose (21:47) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Teasi Cannon (22:05) I'm not sure there's a single type of heartbreak or struggle that your story doesn't touch on because I was hearing you talk about thwarted dreams. And then that feeling, I can almost feel it in my stomach when you look back and you think if I had only known about the celiacs, maybe I could have achieved my tennis goals. Because look at how much I was doing without knowing. I think... Dessert Rose (22:15) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Right. Teasi Cannon (22:29) We all, we're not all tennis stars, but we probably can all look back at a time in our life and think, if only that hadn't happened, how much different would I be now? And even sometimes those feelings can just give us a pit in our stomach. And if we allow ourselves to be trapped in those what ifs, it can bring on despair. So you have navigated broken dreams, frustration of the medical community, fear. Golly, I... Dessert Rose (22:42) Yeah. Yes. Teasi Cannon (22:59) I don't know what it's like to have my muscles seize up in that extreme way, but I've had cramps. you know, I mean, if anyone's ever had a muscle cramp where you couldn't like stretch straight up because you couldn't breathe because you were afraid of the pain that was gonna happen, I'm sure that's what you were experiencing all over your body. And the fear of that happening again is real. ⁓ Dessert Rose (23:08) You Yeah. Right, right, Teasi Cannon (23:25) So you've got despair Dessert Rose (23:25) exactly. Teasi Cannon (23:26) and you've got fear and you're navigating all this other normal life. I not, mean, just deep griefs in the midst of normal life pain. So I, I'm thinking of... Dessert Rose (23:31) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. And lots of moves ⁓ contributed to that because a lot of times, ⁓ I think we find a lot of comfort in the people around us. ⁓ my community was always being appended for various reasons, ⁓ not of my choosing usually, often related to my husband's job. Teasi Cannon (23:51) Right, our community. Dessert Rose (24:05) or education, things like that. yeah, changing communities, changing churches, and just kind of being in a new community going, hey, I know you all don't know me. I'm new to this church, but would you pray for me? Teasi Cannon (24:07) Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah. You don't know me. I need prayer for I'm allergic to everything. Yeah. Like, you know, it's not even just, you help pray that I get a new job? It's like, you know, your, struggles were really intense. So with that, I mean, as we've heard this multiple range of genuinely, you know, heartbreaking Dessert Rose (24:26) Yeah, all the things, right? Right. Right. Mm-hmm. Teasi Cannon (24:49) fear inducing panic and despair. What, how has God, I know part of your story, so I know like your tennis years were before you met the Lord, right? Dessert Rose (25:00) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah, so I became a believer. I ⁓ heard the gospel shortly after I turned 21 years old. So these health struggles really started. Well, they started in infancy, I suppose. ⁓ there were a lot of years in there where I was just eating vegetables ⁓ and didn't realize that was contributing to my being so healthy. ⁓ I went to this fancy private school on full scholarship where they would make my lunch and I got to bring whatever I wanted. So I'd bring cans of vegetables and say, would you make these for me? Would you just heat these up for me? And they would do that. And I was healthy. But so that's why I kind of really started noticing in high school and especially when I moved away from home and I was just eating what I was given at the tennis academy and in college what I was told to eat by my coaches and things like that. ⁓ But yeah, so this. Teasi Cannon (25:32) Wow. Dessert Rose (25:56) ⁓ So I'm in my 40s now. This began intensely as far as I recall in high school. And so I became a believer at 21 years old. So, you know, decades ago. Teasi Cannon (26:12) Yeah, so how has, you know, looking back in, I'm sure God has met you there in multiple ways and multiple times, but as you look at the course of your history with your health issues and everything that's been hard, how have you seen God come to you with comfort? What has brought you God's comfort along the way? Dessert Rose (26:28) Mm-hmm. Yeah, well, for one thing, God has used it to instill in me compassion. I love the verse that you referenced at the beginning. I was not a compassionate teenager. I had my goals and I was going to accomplish them. And if people got in the way, I was going to... Teasi Cannon (26:57) Mmm. Dessert Rose (27:05) get those people out of the way so that I could not like let not by threatening their lives I don't but you know I was going to figure out how to you know navigate things so that I could ⁓ kind of I guess offer as little as possible contribute as little as possible to other people's lives so that I could accomplish my goals it was all about me and ⁓ and my dreams and I have a lot more compassion Teasi Cannon (27:08) Wow, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Dessert Rose (27:34) for people now. also, ⁓ I turned to the Lord in hard times because I'm desperate, but now I also, with all of the, you know, people talk a lot about, and I could relate to this a lot in my early 20s, people talk about how during the good times, it's easy to forget about the Lord. I did experience that first season, but I think I have experienced so much. Teasi Cannon (27:56) Mm-hmm. Dessert Rose (28:02) hardship and difficulty and challenge that in the good times, I'm aware when the sun is shining and my body is not freezing cold and shivering and I'm thankful and I'm happy and I'm joyful and I'm outside celebrating and doing martial arts in my driveway or, you know, ⁓ outside and stopping and talking to neighbors and happy as can be ⁓ that I can breathe, that I'm warm, that I'm healthy. Teasi Cannon (28:10) Wow. Mmm. Mm. Dessert Rose (28:30) ⁓ When I have energy, I just want to praise the Lord, and I do praise the Lord, turn on music and start singing. I don't want, when I'm healthy, I don't want to just lay on the couch and watch TV. That's the only thing I could do when I was really, really sick. And so I want to ⁓ praise the Lord. I want to go to church. I want to interact with people. I want to encourage others with the encouragement that Christ has given. Teasi Cannon (28:43) Yeah, right. Gosh. Mm-hmm. Dessert Rose (28:59) to me and ⁓ at the same time, think probably what has meant the most to me is knowing that this world is not all there is. ⁓ That was a big part of my ⁓ walk toward to Christ was in throughout college, ⁓ I was, I had accomplished most of my goals. ⁓ The one that, Teasi Cannon (29:12) Mm-hmm. Dessert Rose (29:29) You know, I didn't become the best player in the world. ⁓ My health issues did end my tennis career, but I had accomplished just about everything else. I went to my number one school choice, Duke University. We had been my first choice since I was ⁓ pretty young. I had beaten the number one junior tennis player in the world repeatedly every time we played. I was a straight A student. You know, I was in the Duke newspaper all the time. I was being celebrated for my accomplishments. ⁓ People wanted to get to know me. I've had what this world offers. My parents had quite a bit of money. They worked very hard and they gave generously to my brother and to me. And I had everything the world offers. Teasi Cannon (30:10) Wow, yeah. Dessert Rose (30:23) my constant thought, not constant, but a regular thought in my mind was, this cannot be all there is. Please tell me this is not all there is. Because this is not enough. mean, if being, you know, the day after, the day that I last beat the number one player in the world, I was happy that day, all day, super happy. Teasi Cannon (30:32) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Dessert Rose (30:52) The next day at 6 a.m., it was time to get up and start training again. And that is what this life kind of feels like. There's, you know, so I mean, ⁓ a year later, nobody, a week later, nobody cares what you did last week in sports. Certainly a year later, nobody cares. And definitely 30 years later, nobody cares. And so, Teasi Cannon (30:52) Mm-hmm. Hmm. Right. Right? Exactly. Yep. Right. Dessert Rose (31:17) I just, thought really I'm gonna go to work, I'm gonna work hard, I'm gonna do something. I'm not really in love with any specific type of work, so I'm just gonna reluctantly wake up early in the morning, go work my butt off, earn money so that can pay the bills so that I can give to others, which is fun, but then so that I can get older and have more health issues and then die. That's awesome. ⁓ But with... ⁓ Teasi Cannon (31:40) ⁓ Yeah, yeah. Dessert Rose (31:45) When I heard the gospel and I knew that it was real, and especially after I investigated the evidence to confirm my kind of road to Damascus experience, because I was not going to just believe my experience, I needed to confirm it with and confirm it and confirm it some more. But when I knew that Christianity was true, I also knew that this world is not Teasi Cannon (31:48) Mm. Mm-hmm. Dessert Rose (32:13) All there is, the weakness of my body is temporary. ⁓ The aging process is temporary. We are jars of clay right now. ⁓ How easily are jars of clay broken, right? But this is not all there is, not even close to it. Just as Jesus conquered death and was raised to new life with a glorious resurrection body, so also we who trusted him will be raised to new. Teasi Cannon (32:14) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Right. Dessert Rose (32:40) life with a glorious, awesome body that cannot be broken or made sick ⁓ or killed another time, right? We'll be on the new earth with ⁓ our new bodies and we can look kind of and get some ideas ⁓ from Christ and his resurrection body as he is the first fruits of what is to come for us. Teasi Cannon (32:49) Mm-hmm. Right. Right. So yeah, and it's not a crutch. Even as I listen to it, I believe it. it just brings me just to that same inner joy because it's not only that I believe it's not the end of the story for me, I know it's not the end of the story for my mom and my brother and people that have gone before me. it gives me that hope that... Dessert Rose (33:14) Right, Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. Right. Teasi Cannon (33:34) even though I miss my mother more than I can even put words to, I know she's alive and I know that I'm going to see her again and ⁓ that is a wonderful hope but Dessert Rose (33:40) Right. Right. Teasi Cannon (33:46) you know, it's easy to see or to understand why people who haven't had an encounter like you, I heard your testimony of how you came to believe in Jesus and mine is really similar. Although I did hear, you you were not a partier in college and I was. we were, I was the weird people at the party that you thought really didn't know the truth. But ultimately we both ended up having an encounter with the love of Christ. Dessert Rose (33:57) Okay, yeah. Okay. Teasi Cannon (34:13) And I grappled with the same basic core problem. Is this all there is? Like, what is the point? You live, you die, you know, and I might've framed it little more diff, in a probably a more crass way than you did, but I was just going, what is the point of this? And that is one of the beautiful things of coming of the Christian worldview and having an encounter that. Dessert Rose (34:17) Mm-hmm. Right. Teasi Cannon (34:35) Sounds crazy, but subjectively we know it's real that something happened within our heart as the love of Christ ⁓ Gets a hold of us and We become acutely aware of our need for God or an ability to access him on our own merit and our need for what Jesus has freely done and then the resurrection giving us this hope as you said but It can sound like such a fantasy to people that haven't actually had their eyes open to any degree or aren't searching. But it isn't just a crutch. That's the point of this podcast. I know your ministry. We are trying to share with people that we are not fools. We're not just making ourselves feel better by saying this, this isn't the end and there's going to be more. ⁓ No, we have some objectively verifiable evidence that gives us good reason to believe that what we can't see yet with our eyes, we can't see the future yet. We haven't seen heaven. We haven't seen what it looks like beyond. Dessert Rose (35:46) Mm-hmm. Teasi Cannon (35:50) this portion but we have so much evidence for what can be seen what we can test and you mentioned that that you kept testing it you tested it you tested it and you came to the conclusion having been basically an atheist having some type of an encounter with the love of christ and then you took it to the test over and over and over to where now you can confidently say this is true christianity is true this Dessert Rose (35:59) Mm-hmm. Right. Teasi Cannon (36:18) this all that you've been through, all the struggles, and I'm sure you aren't thinking you'll never struggle again. Dessert Rose (36:26) Exactly. Right. Teasi Cannon (36:26) Right, you probably have enough wisdom and as do I to know that we don't have a suffering quota that we finally achieve and then we get free, you know, smooth sailing. Maybe we will, hopefully, I'd be fun. But ⁓ what is some of the evidence that you have studied that really, you know, I know there's a ton, I mean, we could be here for hours going into all the evidence, and that's good news. I want listeners to know there is so much evidence that we could never talk about it in one hour, never. ⁓ Dessert Rose (36:39) would be great. ⁓ Yeah, yeah, right. Yes. Teasi Cannon (36:56) It takes years of study for many scholars. You can get a great survey in a much shorter time. But what is your favorite? Like I know I have my go-tos when I, because I do sometimes have these blips of moments where I'm like, am I crazy? ⁓ wait, no, I'm not. And then I backtrack and I walk myself through the logical progression of the evidence that means so much to me. What is that for you? Dessert Rose (37:23) Yeah, the probably the evidence that has meant the most to me has been the evidence for Jesus' death and resurrection. And some of that, as you know, I I give multiple ⁓ talks on these topics at conferences and in studies and churches and things. ⁓ But some of the evidence Teasi Cannon (37:34) Hmm. Mm-hmm. Dessert Rose (37:52) has been things like the multiple ancient sources. So we have Christian and non-Christian sources from the ancient world from the first century. ⁓ Josephus and Tacitus are just two that I'll mention, ⁓ a Jew and a Roman ⁓ non-Christians from the first century who ⁓ affirmed Jesus' death by crucifixion. We have the Christian testimony of people who ⁓ were persuaded by the evidence. It's not like they were Christians before Christ came, and so they just really, really, you know, ⁓ had a stake in believing him. They're people who became Christians because they were there and they were convinced of what they saw. And these multiple ancient sources have all the marks of historical reliability. For example, Teasi Cannon (38:32) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Right. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Dessert Rose (38:50) early testimony. The gospel accounts were very early. The epistles were written, most of them, even earlier. ⁓ We have 1 Corinthians 15, 3 through 7, which is an ancient creed. Even non-Christians will grant that that is an ancient creed that goes back to within a couple of years of the events themselves. If you read 1 Corinthians 15, although 1 Corinthians was written in the mid-50s by the Apostle Paul, he says he's already taught them this. Teasi Cannon (39:03) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Dessert Rose (39:21) when he was with them. includes testimony of Jesus' death, his burial and his resurrection and over 500 eyewitnesses who saw it. And he says, most of them are still alive, go ask them. Well, he had already taught that to them. then he's quoting an ancient creed that had already been created. much like today in church, if we recite the Apostles' Creed, Teasi Cannon (39:22) Mm-hmm. Right. Dessert Rose (39:45) It's not because we're creating the Apostles Creed in church as we speak it, it's been around for hundreds of years. Well, this Creed from 1 Corinthians 15 had been around for decades at that point and goes right up to the events themselves and may have even been created within months of Jesus' death and resurrection. So we have early testimony, we have eyewitness testimony, Matthew who wrote the Gospel of Matthew. Teasi Cannon (39:48) Mm-hmm. Right. Right. Dessert Rose (40:14) He was a disciple of Jesus. Mark's testimony was based on the eyewitness testimony of Peter, part of Jesus' inner three, who saw everything. ⁓ Luke ⁓ interviewed eyewitnesses and traveled with the apostle Paul and wrote the Gospel of Luke and Acts. John was himself also one of ⁓ Jesus' inner three, who saw everything. ⁓ Again, 1 Corinthians 15, Paul points to 500 witnesses, ⁓ most of whom were still living. There are numerous people who are named by names within the gospels as being present at the crucifixion. If you just want to verify the crucifixion, talk to the Mary's, Mary, Mother of Jesus, Mary Magdalene, several others are listed. ⁓ We have enemy attestation. So people who... Teasi Cannon (40:56) Mm-hmm. Dessert Rose (41:12) did not want Christianity to be true, admitted that Jesus was killed and that the body was missing. ⁓ They didn't say when the disciples started claiming that Jesus was resurrected from the dead, the enemies of Christ didn't say, he's not resurrected, he's over in the mass grave where we put him. They didn't say, ⁓ no, his body's still hanging on the cross being eaten by the birds. Everybody's been watching it for the last. Teasi Cannon (41:19) Right? Right. Mm-hmm. Dessert Rose (41:42) few days. Didn't say that. They didn't say, it's still in the tomb of Joseph of Arimathea, where we put it. Let's go there right now. They didn't say, he probably left town because, you know, he may have passed out, but he, you know, he probably revived and left. And that's not what anybody said. What they said was the disciples must have stolen the body. In other words, he's dead and the body's missing. We've got embarrassing. Teasi Cannon (41:50) Mm-hmm. Right. Right. Right. Dessert Rose (42:11) attestation, testimony. Women discovered the empty tomb and the resurrected Christ. Women's testimony was not taken seriously in first century Jerusalem. Women were not considered credible enough to testify in a court of law, according to Josephus. The male disciples, who may have been trustworthy, trusted, were found hiding behind locked doors out of fear for the Jewish leaders. Teasi Cannon (42:23) Mm-hmm. Dessert Rose (42:40) I believe it's John that records that. ⁓ All throughout the Gospels we see the disciples as kind of dense and not getting it and saying stupid things and lacking faith and things like that. Really, that's who you're going to make up a story that we should trust them. ⁓ There were many unexpected events. The Jews were not expecting the Messiah to be crucified. The most shameful Teasi Cannon (42:40) Right, right. Right? Right. Mm-hmm. Dessert Rose (43:09) embarrassing, horrific death reserved only for the worst of criminals, that would have been utterly embarrassing and unexpected. And they certainly were not expecting a resurrection in the body at that time either. They were expecting a conquering king who overthrew Rome. ⁓ None of the things that Jesus did were on their bingo card. And so, ⁓ Teasi Cannon (43:16) Mm-hmm. Right. Right. Dessert Rose (43:39) You know, so we've got all these different sources with all these different marks of authenticity and reliability. We have the coherent historical and archaeological context that shows that, for example, crucifixion was practiced in first century Jerusalem and that it was carried out in the ways that the gospel accounts ⁓ record. We ⁓ have even the scholarly consensus today. I know scholarly Teasi Cannon (43:45) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Dessert Rose (44:09) consensus is kind of gone out of vogue in the last several years. It's still significant though that people who really want Christianity to be false acknowledge so much of the story. ⁓ then studying the alternative explanations and seeing their knowing their shortcomings, there is nothing that explains the facts that we Teasi Cannon (44:12) Mm-hmm, it is. Right. Mm-hmm. Right. Dessert Rose (44:38) know to be true, the way the gospel accounts explain them. The hallucination theory has been, probably the best. Well, I think it may be the best outside of the fact that Jesus was really ⁓ resurrected from the dead. Teasi Cannon (44:38) Mm-hmm. Yeah. The weakest. You think it's the best? Dessert Rose (45:03) ⁓ But we laugh at it because group hallucinations don't happen. It's ridiculous. It is very, very weak. And yet it's probably the second best explanation after a genuine resurrection from the dead. The swoon theory is laughable. ⁓ If Jesus had passed out on the cross, he would have died quickly anyway, because when spread out in that crucifixion position, you have to press up ⁓ and press your Teasi Cannon (45:08) Right. Right. Well. Right. Dessert Rose (45:33) bloodied, ⁓ whipped back against the cross and your feet against the nails to raise up to exhale. And so if Jesus passed out, he wouldn't have been able to exhale. So he would have died within minutes. ⁓ If he had been placed in the tomb, just passed out, but bloodied and ⁓ having experienced a crucifixion and the whipping and all that went with it. And he was, right? Yeah, if he had come out of the tomb from that condition, Teasi Cannon (45:36) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Right. with no medical care. Dessert Rose (46:02) after the better part of three days, he would not have appeared resurrected from the dead. He would have appeared in desperate need of urgent medical care, right? ⁓ The idea of this being a myth, while the disciples were willing to suffer and even willing to die for their testimony, even ⁓ non-Christian, anti-Christian, Christian-hating scholars today will grant that, you know, this wasn't a myth. No, the Swoon theory is a disaster. No, the Hallucination theory is also a disaster. So what do you think happened? Teasi Cannon (46:11) Right, yes. Yes. Right. Mm-hmm. Dessert Rose (46:32) Something happened. That's the answer we get. Something happened. Yeah. So that's just a taste of the evidence. But these are the things that mean a lot to me, among others, as I contemplate, you know, am I ⁓ being a fool and believing foolish things? And I review the evidence and I know that Teasi Cannon (46:34) Right. Right. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Dessert Rose (47:00) Christianity is true and that the reasons for our hope are sure. Teasi Cannon (47:06) Yeah, amen. I I think it's really important for people to know that the apostle Paul set out the resurrection like Christianity's self-destruct button. It is, if you had to memorize any line of evidence at all, I would encourage everyone to learn the evidence for the resurrection. And you can learn it in bullet points that you remember in your head and then just know where to go find the primary source support, but. Dessert Rose (47:18) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Right? Mm-hmm. Teasi Cannon (47:37) To have that quickly, that is what I lean into as well. That's where my brain goes, the file folder of the minimal facts. What do scholars agree to? And then you've got these facts and what do you do with them? And also, another one that's really fascinating to me is you think about the fact of what would be real if Jesus hadn't come out of the grave? What would human history look like? Dessert Rose (47:40) Yeah. Yeah. Right. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Teasi Cannon (48:03) ⁓ would Christianity have started for any other reason? No, ⁓ because it was so counterculture, not only counterculture, but just as we're beginning to see, or you see in other parts of the world, it was hated. Christians were not appreciated in the Roman culture at the time, in their day, even by the Pharisees. They weren't even appreciated by Jews. So there was no benefit to early Christians for starting a new religion. Dessert Rose (48:08) Right. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. Right. Right. Teasi Cannon (48:32) ⁓ They did not win prosperity, platform, power. Some of our modern skepticism would like to frame Christianity as this colonizing, white, oppressive, you know, it was not originated as that. It was the most oppressed, the most, ⁓ the least powerful people. Dessert Rose (48:33) Right? Right. Exactly. Right? Teasi Cannon (48:57) the rejects of society, the poor, the needy, it only could have happened and it started in Jerusalem, which is where the crucifixion occurred, where the evidence was most easily investigated. So we have this massive explosion of a new religion that is anchored in the reality of Jesus coming out of the grave. That is the actual historical event that started the whole thing. Dessert Rose (48:59) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. Right. Absolutely. Right. Teasi Cannon (49:26) And so like it wouldn't have occurred there in Jerusalem that would, would have been easily debunked. And I think it's important, like you mentioned, we have to put ourselves like the apostles creed, you know, we weren't there. We're talking about something ancient that was created and developed years and years ago. And we're, we're reciting it, but we weren't eyewitnesses to the things that are being claimed. But So it is important for us to kind of put on a perspective of what is Paul saying to his original audience? How easy would it have been for them to call him a liar? It would have been incredibly easy for them to say, you're a fool, this is a lie. Dessert Rose (50:04) Mm-hmm, right. Teasi Cannon (50:09) Jesus is right here, like you mentioned, and it never happened and it still hasn't happened. There's not been any historical evidence to show, ⁓ we found the body. And Christians would never have, there was no reason for anyone to abandon their cultural beliefs or their current religious beliefs to embrace this whole new mission. So. Dessert Rose (50:14) Exactly. Right? Mm-hmm. Exactly. mean, the Jews already believed that they had the truth. They knew God. They were saved. And they had status and stability and comfort within their own communities. That they gave up what little they had or what lot they had, what everything they had, ⁓ for something that led to suffering and persecution. Exactly. Exactly. Teasi Cannon (50:36) Yeah. Right. Right. Right, for something. For suffering. They gave it all up for suffering. Yeah. So I love, I find as much joy in what you shared. It is a gift of love. I you and I were talking about that before we started to record is just learning the evidence that God has given us evidence that we can discover is a gift of love. It is, yes, we learn it in our head, but it comes to the rescue of our heart. Dessert Rose (51:17) Right. Teasi Cannon (51:24) over and over and over again. It not only comes to the rescue of our heart in the moment, but it gives us the ability to have substantiated hope for the future. can even, you and I can both look ahead knowing that even if we have to suffer more this side of heaven, our hope is substantiated. It isn't dependent on Dessert Rose (51:34) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Teasi Cannon (51:50) our current circumstances or our feelings. Would we like good circumstances and great feelings? Of course we would. We're not asking for suffering or hard times, but for me, my hope is my faith projected into the future. My faith for today projected into the future. And that's what I hear you saying. ⁓ Dessert Rose (51:53) Mm-hmm. Sure. Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely, and even as we're suffering, we can have full confidence that there is purpose in it. It is not in vain that we suffer. ⁓ so, we're told in the scriptures of various places, ⁓ including James, chapter one, and throughout Romans, to consider it all joy when we suffer. And that seems insane, but... Teasi Cannon (52:21) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Dessert Rose (52:40) It is the suffering itself is producing in us character and hope and compassion and ⁓ appreciation and real joy and celebration in the good times and an eternal. Teasi Cannon (52:45) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Dessert Rose (53:00) ⁓ future of endless joys. It's awesome. Teasi Cannon (53:03) Right. Yeah, I was thinking about what, it's a silly analogy that came to mind, but when you were talking about how... you know, when you have a good day, now you go out, you're smiling, you're like this joyful beam of sunshine to your neighbors. And after all that you've been through, and I was just thinking of a beach ball, I know I've heard people use this, but it's like the suffering you've been through, was like pushing a beach ball down, but then on your days when you're not experiencing physical suffering and pain, you just bounce out like just joy. And if you hadn't been pushed down so far, you wouldn't bounce up so high. And I know that's a simplistic way of saying it and no one would sign up for that. Just, Dessert Rose (53:18) Uh-huh. Yep. Right. Teasi Cannon (53:41) I want to be a beach ball that flies in the air, you but it is just an example of what God how suffering does produce joy. And we know that even on the cross as Jesus was suffering unimaginable physical pain and moral pain, ⁓ you know, becoming the object of Dessert Rose (53:49) Mm-hmm. Teasi Cannon (54:02) God's wrath. We can't even fathom what the pain and suffering he was experiencing, but as he was experiencing that suffering, he was also connected with the joy that was set before him. And I know that whatever that joy was, it was anchored in the Dessert Rose (54:03) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Teasi Cannon (54:23) eternal redemptive plan of God. It was transcending his earthly experience. And that same transcendent anchor is available to us. And we can trust that same transcendent anchor that we can't see on the basis of our personal experiences, which do matter, but also beyond that, this extensive. Dessert Rose (54:26) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Amen. Teasi Cannon (54:49) treasury of objectively verifiable facts ⁓ that of course we have to interpret and not everyone will walk away with the same interpretation as you've said non-believing scholars will attest to these evidence these facts and still not want to surrender but for those of us who have tasted and seen this beautiful gift of salvation ⁓ Dessert Rose (54:53) Absolutely. Mm-hmm. Teasi Cannon (55:14) there is nothing greater and this world has nothing for us. And so ⁓ I think that is a really great place to stop and just, know, Laura, thank you so much. I know that you could, we could just listen to you for hours longer because not, not because of all you've suffered, which is important, but because of the authenticity of the joy. Dessert Rose (55:16) Mm-hmm. you Teasi Cannon (55:40) I think, you know, to me, and I'll just end with this last thing, is sometimes people think they don't have a good testimony because they don't have a lot of suffering in their life or they didn't do drugs or, you know, they didn't live in filth and depravity before Jesus. But what I say to them is those are aspects of a powerful story. But what means the most to people is how authentic, how real is the hope you have right now? Dessert Rose (55:40) Thank you. Teasi Cannon (56:08) How real is the remedy that you've embraced? And that is something we can all have and that's what you have. And so thank you, Laura. Thank you for sharing your heart. Thank you for sharing your wisdom. ⁓ I'm going to include in the show notes how to find Laura, to get in touch with her ministry, find her podcast and continue to learn from her and even her classes that she teaches with women in apologetics. But if you have been encouraged by Laura or any of the things we've said in this conversation, I would love for you to consider who you might share it with a friend, a family member who might be suffering or just grappling with their faith trying to figure out if they want to believe Christianity is true. I would appreciate you considering sharing it. Also subscribe so that you personally do not miss a single moment of true comfort. Thank you Laura and thank you everyone for listening today.