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Discernment Practices and Pope Francis' Calls to Action · Deep Transformation

0:00
Dear,
0:01
dear
0:01
listener,
0:02
hi,
0:02
this
0:02
is
0:02
John
0:03
Dupuy.
0:03
I
0:03
want
0:03
to
0:04
ask
0:04
a
0:04
favor
0:04
of
0:04
you.
0:05
If
0:05
you
0:05
like
0:05
the
0:06
podcast
0:06
Deep
0:07
Transformation
0:07
and
0:08
you're
0:08
getting
0:08
a
0:08
lot
0:08
out
0:08
of
0:08
it,
0:09
could
0:09
you
0:09
please
0:09
help
0:10
us
0:10
by
0:10
going
0:10
to
0:11
wherever
0:11
you
0:11
get
0:11
your
0:12
podcast,
0:12
it's
0:12
a
0:13
Spotify
0:13
or
0:13
Apple
0:14
or
0:14
wherever
0:14
it
0:15
is,
0:15
and
0:15
write,
0:16
write
0:16
a
0:16
review
0:16
that
0:17
would
0:17
really
0:17
help
0:17
us
0:17
to
0:18
get
0:18
this
0:18
out.
0:18
We
0:19
really
0:19
believe
0:19
in
0:19
what
0:19
we're
0:19
doing
0:20
and
0:20
we're
0:20
really
0:21
praying
0:21
and
0:21
hoping
0:21
this
0:21
is
0:22
helping
0:22
people
0:22
and
0:22
being
0:23
part
0:23
of
0:23
the
0:23
solution.
0:24
So
0:24
if
0:24
you
0:24
could
0:24
do
0:24
that,
0:25
it
0:25
would
0:25
be
0:25
greatly
0:26
appreciated
0:27
by
0:27
Roger,
0:27
myself
0:28
and
0:28
our
0:28
team.
0:28
God
0:29
bless.
0:29
Thank
0:29
you.
0:30
Welcome
0:31
to
0:31
part
0:31
two
0:32
of
0:32
our
0:32
conversation
0:32
with
0:33
the
0:33
good
0:33
and
0:34
wise
0:34
priest,
0:34
Father
0:35
David
0:35
McCollum.
0:36
In
0:36
this
0:36
conversation,
0:37
we
0:37
continue
0:38
to
0:38
explore
0:39
the
0:39
necessity
0:39
of
0:40
the
0:40
gift
0:40
of
0:40
discernment
0:41
in
0:41
what
0:41
has
0:41
been
0:42
called
0:42
the
0:42
post
0:43
truth
0:43
era
0:44
in
0:44
which
0:44
we
0:45
find
0:45
ourselves
0:45
and
0:46
where
0:46
we
0:47
can
0:47
go
0:47
from
0:48
here.
0:52
Welcome
0:53
to
0:53
Deep
0:54
Transformation.
0:55
Self,
0:55
Society,
0:56
Spirit,
0:57
life
0:57
enhancing,
0:58
paradigm
0:58
rattling
0:59
conversations
1:00
with
1:00
cutting
1:00
edge
1:01
thinkers,
1:01
contemplatives
1:02
and
1:02
activists,
1:03
with
1:03
Dr.
1:03
Roger
1:04
Walsh
1:04
and
1:04
John
1:05
Dupuy.
1:07
And
1:08
you
1:08
pointed
1:08
to
1:09
the
1:10
crucial
1:10
element
1:11
of
1:12
turning
1:12
inward
1:13
or
1:14
for
1:15
guidance
1:15
in
1:16
the
1:16
Christian
1:17
tradition,
1:18
perhaps
1:18
the
1:18
voice
1:19
of
1:19
the
1:19
Holy
1:19
Spirit.
1:21
And
1:21
this
1:22
takes
1:22
us
1:22
into
1:24
the
1:24
topic
1:25
of
1:26
contemplation
1:26
on
1:27
the
1:27
contemplative
1:28
side
1:28
of
1:28
the
1:28
church
1:29
and
1:30
the
1:30
fact
1:31
that
1:31
there
1:31
seems
1:31
to
1:32
be
1:32
both
1:32
a
1:32
revival
1:33
of
1:34
the
1:34
contemplative
1:35
dimensions
1:35
of
1:35
the
1:35
church
1:36
or
1:36
maybe
1:36
is
1:37
it
1:37
a
1:37
coming
1:37
into
1:38
public
1:39
knowledge
1:39
because
1:40
it
1:40
seemed
1:40
like
1:40
this
1:40
was
1:41
more
1:41
esoteric
1:42
in
1:42
the
1:42
past.
1:43
Yeah,
1:44
yeah,
1:44
it's
1:45
a
1:45
great
1:45
observation.
1:46
I
1:46
think
1:46
that,
1:47
you
1:47
know,
1:48
for
1:48
the
1:48
most
1:49
part,
1:49
the
1:50
spiritual
1:50
treasures,
1:51
Right.
1:51
Of
1:52
each
1:52
of
1:52
these
1:52
religious
1:53
traditions
1:53
within
1:54
Catholicism
1:55
have
1:56
largely
1:56
been
1:56
kept
1:57
within
1:57
particular
1:58
communities.
1:59
But,
2:00
you
2:00
know,
2:00
in
2:00
the
2:01
modern
2:01
age,
2:01
all
2:01
of
2:02
that
2:02
now
2:02
is
2:02
available
2:03
for
2:03
us
2:03
to
2:03
explore.
2:04
It's
2:04
an
2:04
amazing
2:05
treasury
2:05
of
2:06
spiritualities,
2:07
contemplative
2:08
paths.
2:09
And
2:10
you
2:10
have
2:10
people
2:10
like
2:11
Richard
2:12
Rohr
2:12
and
2:12
Thomas
2:12
Keating
2:13
and
2:13
others
2:13
who
2:14
have
2:14
really
2:14
just
2:15
done
2:15
beautiful
2:15
work
2:15
or
2:16
David
2:16
Stendahl
2:16
Rust.
2:18
At
2:19
the
2:19
same
2:19
time,
2:21
there
2:21
is
2:22
this,
2:22
I
2:22
think,
2:22
emerging
2:24
awareness
2:25
within
2:25
the
2:25
Catholic
2:26
Church
2:26
that
2:27
there
2:27
needs
2:27
to
2:28
be
2:28
more
2:28
of
2:29
this
2:29
made
2:29
available
2:30
with
2:31
expert
2:32
guidance
2:32
and
2:33
support.
2:34
And
2:35
Pope
2:35
Francis
2:35
actually
2:36
asked
2:36
the
2:37
Society
2:37
of
2:37
Jesus
2:38
to
2:38
make
2:38
this
2:39
skill
2:39
of
2:39
discernment,
2:40
this
2:40
practice,
2:41
more
2:41
available
2:42
to
2:42
the
2:42
Church
2:43
at
2:43
large.
2:44
So
2:44
the
2:44
founding
2:45
of
2:45
our
2:45
program
2:45
was
2:46
in
2:46
many
2:46
ways
2:46
a
2:46
response
2:47
to
2:47
that
2:48
request.
2:49
I
2:49
had
2:49
been
2:49
doing
2:49
leadership
2:50
development
2:51
work
2:51
for
2:51
the
2:51
Jesuits
2:52
and
2:52
their
2:52
colleagues
2:53
in
2:53
Africa
2:53
and
2:53
in
2:54
Europe.
2:54
And
2:55
then
2:55
the
2:55
request
2:56
came
2:56
to
2:56
do
2:56
that
2:57
kind
2:57
of
2:57
work
2:57
here
2:58
in
2:58
Rome,
2:59
but
2:59
to
2:59
do
2:59
it
2:59
with
2:59
senior
3:00
Vatican
3:00
leaders
3:01
who
3:02
are
3:02
responsible
3:03
for
3:03
operations
3:04
in
3:04
these
3:05
various
3:05
curia.
3:06
Offices
3:07
and
3:07
also
3:08
for
3:08
the
3:08
general
3:08
superiors
3:09
of
3:09
religious
3:09
orders
3:10
and
3:10
their
3:10
counselors,
3:12
and
3:12
for
3:13
executives
3:14
and
3:14
Catholic
3:15
nonprofits
3:15
that
3:15
are
3:16
headquartered
3:16
here
3:16
in
3:16
Rome.
3:17
So
3:18
we've
3:18
been
3:18
doing
3:18
this
3:18
now
3:19
for
3:19
five
3:19
years,
3:20
and
3:20
it's
3:20
been
3:21
a
3:21
kind
3:21
of
3:21
iterative
3:22
process.
3:23
We
3:23
started
3:23
really
3:24
just
3:24
integrating
3:25
business
3:25
and
3:26
management
3:26
practices
3:27
with
3:27
spirituality.
3:28
Now,
3:29
I
3:29
would
3:30
say
3:30
we
3:30
foreground
3:31
this
3:32
Ignatian
3:32
discernment
3:33
and
3:34
we
3:34
explore
3:35
how
3:35
there's
3:36
practical
3:36
implications
3:37
for
3:37
this
3:38
that
3:38
show
3:38
up
3:39
with
3:39
various
3:39
leadership
3:41
lenses
3:41
and
3:41
tools.
3:42
And
3:42
it's
3:43
resonating
3:43
profoundly
3:44
with
3:44
people.
3:45
A
3:45
kind
3:45
of
3:45
deeply
3:46
formative
3:46
experience
3:46
for
3:47
individuals,
3:47
but
3:47
also
3:48
for
3:48
teams
3:48
and
3:48
groups.
3:49
And
3:50
our
3:50
hope
3:50
is
3:51
to,
3:51
you
3:51
know,
3:51
continue
3:52
to
3:52
share
3:52
this
3:52
with
3:52
the.
3:53
The
3:53
wider
3:53
church
3:54
or
3:55
even
3:55
outside
3:55
of
3:56
the
3:56
Catholic
3:57
Church.
3:58
Sounds
3:58
like
3:58
the
3:58
answer
3:59
to
3:59
a
3:59
lot
3:59
of
3:59
stuff
4:00
that's
4:00
going
4:00
on
4:00
right
4:00
now,
4:01
actually.
4:01
So.
4:03
Yeah.
4:03
And
4:04
along
4:04
with
4:05
the
4:06
secularization,
4:07
it
4:07
also
4:07
feels
4:08
like
4:08
there's
4:08
a
4:09
hunger
4:09
for
4:09
direct
4:10
experience,
4:11
which
4:11
these
4:11
kind
4:12
of
4:12
practices
4:13
offer.
4:14
Very
4:14
much.
4:16
Very
4:16
much.
4:16
You
4:17
know,
4:17
Ignatius
4:18
was
4:18
very
4:18
keen
4:19
on
4:19
direct
4:19
experience.
4:21
And
4:21
in
4:22
fact,
4:22
Pope
4:22
Francis
4:23
used
4:23
to
4:23
say
4:24
that
4:24
reality
4:24
is
4:25
more
4:25
important
4:25
than
4:25
ideas.
4:27
Now,
4:28
of
4:28
course,
4:28
academics
4:29
were
4:29
not
4:29
so
4:30
fond
4:30
of
4:30
that
4:30
way
4:31
of
4:31
thinking.
4:32
But
4:32
his
4:32
point
4:33
was,
4:33
we
4:33
need
4:34
to
4:34
get
4:34
back
4:34
to
4:34
the
4:35
direct
4:35
experience.
4:37
It's
4:37
very
4:37
easy
4:38
to
4:38
kind
4:38
of
4:39
abstract,
4:40
you
4:40
know,
4:40
for
4:41
a
4:41
lot
4:41
of
4:41
us,
4:41
and
4:41
to
4:42
step
4:42
away.
4:42
And
4:43
there's
4:43
a
4:43
power
4:43
in
4:44
that
4:44
process.
4:45
But
4:45
what
4:46
he
4:46
wanted
4:46
to
4:46
bring
4:46
us
4:47
back
4:47
to
4:47
was
4:48
the
4:48
direct
4:49
experience,
4:50
where
4:51
we're
4:52
not
4:52
fleeing
4:53
from
4:53
the
4:54
challenges
4:54
and
4:54
suffering
4:55
and
4:55
the
4:55
gaps
4:55
in
4:55
the
4:55
world,
4:56
but
4:56
we're
4:56
really
4:56
encountering
4:57
them
4:58
and
4:58
seeing
4:58
their
4:59
opportunities
4:59
to
5:00
be
5:00
of
5:00
service
5:00
and
5:01
to
5:01
make
5:01
change.
5:02
In
5:02
Ignatian
5:03
prayer,
5:04
it's
5:04
very
5:04
much
5:05
about
5:05
experience.
5:06
It's
5:07
where
5:07
has
5:08
God
5:08
been
5:08
through
5:08
my
5:09
day?
5:10
How
5:10
am
5:10
I
5:10
serving
5:11
as
5:11
an
5:11
instrument,
5:12
you
5:13
know,
5:13
in
5:13
a
5:13
Franciscan
5:14
sense,
5:14
how
5:15
have
5:15
I
5:15
been,
5:17
in
5:17
a
5:17
sense,
5:17
making
5:18
myself
5:18
available
5:19
to
5:19
be
5:19
used
5:20
by
5:21
the
5:21
divine
5:22
for
5:23
a
5:23
purpose
5:23
that
5:24
feels
5:24
really
5:25
deeply
5:26
consoling
5:27
to
5:27
me,
5:27
energizing,
5:28
life
5:28
giving.
5:29
And
5:29
that
5:30
has
5:30
been
5:30
truly
5:30
of
5:31
service
5:31
to
5:31
others.
5:32
And,
5:33
David,
5:33
I
5:33
didn't
5:33
get
5:33
any
5:34
of
5:34
that
5:34
when
5:34
I
5:34
was
5:34
growing
5:35
up
5:35
in
5:35
the
5:35
church.
5:35
You
5:36
know,
5:36
as
5:36
a
5:36
church
5:37
member,
5:37
nobody
5:37
told
5:37
me
5:38
about
5:38
direct
5:39
experience
5:39
or
5:40
opening
5:40
your
5:40
heart
5:41
or
5:41
any
5:41
of
5:41
that
5:41
stuff.
5:42
It
5:42
was
5:42
just
5:42
like,
5:43
it
5:43
was
5:43
just
5:43
very
5:43
formalized.
5:44
And,
5:44
you
5:44
know,
5:44
you
5:45
went
5:45
to
5:45
church,
5:45
Sunday
5:46
school,
5:46
and.
5:47
And
5:47
that's
5:47
the
5:48
experience
5:48
for
5:48
probably
5:49
about
5:49
95%,
5:51
you
5:51
know,
5:51
of
5:51
Catholics.
5:52
But
5:52
increasingly,
5:53
I
5:53
think
5:53
there
5:53
are
5:54
places
5:54
where
5:54
it's
5:55
available.
5:56
And
5:56
my
5:56
concern
5:57
is,
5:57
you
5:57
know,
5:57
that
5:58
in
5:58
the
5:58
west,
5:59
right,
5:59
in
6:00
Western
6:00
Europe
6:01
and
6:01
the
6:01
United
6:01
States
6:02
and
6:02
Canada,
6:03
Australia,
6:03
and
6:04
many
6:04
other
6:04
places
6:05
where
6:05
the
6:05
Church
6:05
is
6:06
shrinking
6:06
very
6:07
rapidly.
6:08
There
6:08
are
6:08
all
6:09
of
6:09
these
6:09
resources
6:09
available,
6:10
but
6:11
there's
6:11
very
6:11
few
6:11
people
6:12
making
6:12
the
6:13
link
6:13
and
6:13
helping
6:14
them
6:14
to
6:14
find
6:15
that
6:15
connection.
6:16
And
6:16
it's
6:16
a
6:17
loss.
6:17
It's
6:17
a
6:18
loss
6:18
because
6:19
no
6:20
secular,
6:20
material
6:21
and
6:22
empirical
6:23
path
6:23
is
6:24
going
6:24
to
6:24
really
6:25
satisfy
6:25
the
6:25
longing
6:26
we
6:26
have
6:26
for
6:27
a
6:27
transcendent
6:28
purpose,
6:29
for
6:30
meaning,
6:30
for
6:31
existential
6:32
kind
6:32
of
6:32
belonging
6:33
in
6:33
the
6:33
ways
6:34
that
6:34
I
6:35
think
6:35
a
6:35
healthy
6:35
spirituality
6:36
can.
6:38
Yeah,
6:39
well
6:39
said.
6:40
And
6:41
speaking
6:41
from
6:42
the
6:42
outside,
6:43
as
6:43
I.
6:44
My
6:44
limited
6:45
understanding
6:45
of
6:46
the
6:46
Ignatian
6:46
Exercises
6:47
and
6:47
I
6:48
just.
6:48
For
6:49
those
6:49
who
6:49
don't
6:49
know,
6:49
St.
6:50
Ignatius
6:50
was
6:51
a
6:51
founder
6:51
of
6:52
the
6:52
Jesuit
6:53
order.
6:53
As
6:53
I
6:54
understand
6:54
it,
6:56
those
6:56
Exercises
6:57
seem
6:57
like
6:58
they
6:59
more
6:59
the
6:59
engagement
7:00
of
7:00
the
7:00
intellect
7:01
or
7:01
the
7:01
imagination
7:03
for
7:03
imaginative
7:04
prayer,
7:04
etc.
7:05
What
7:05
I
7:06
haven't
7:06
heard
7:07
is
7:07
of
7:08
the
7:08
opening
7:09
into
7:09
pure
7:09
silence.
7:10
It
7:10
has
7:10
to
7:11
be
7:11
there.
7:11
Why?
7:11
Am
7:12
I
7:12
missing
7:12
something?
7:13
Yeah,
7:13
it's
7:14
so
7:14
interesting
7:14
that
7:15
you'd
7:15
raise
7:15
that
7:15
because,
7:17
you
7:17
know,
7:17
there's
7:18
often
7:18
a
7:18
bifurcation
7:19
of
7:20
the
7:20
kind
7:20
of.
7:21
We
7:21
would
7:21
call
7:21
them
7:22
cataphatic
7:23
or
7:23
apophatic
7:24
paths.
7:24
Right.
7:25
The
7:25
paths
7:26
that
7:26
are
7:26
either,
7:27
you
7:27
know,
7:28
contemplating
7:28
life
7:29
and
7:29
beauty
7:29
and
7:30
things,
7:30
and
7:30
the
7:30
ones
7:31
that
7:31
are
7:31
kind
7:31
of
7:31
making
7:32
space
7:32
and
7:33
quiet.
7:34
They're
7:34
both
7:35
in
7:35
Ignatian
7:35
spirituality.
7:37
But
7:37
I
7:37
would
7:37
say
7:38
there's
7:38
a
7:38
strong
7:38
bias
7:39
for
7:40
imagination,
7:41
for
7:42
use
7:43
of
7:43
Scripture
7:43
in
7:44
a
7:44
way
7:44
that
7:44
really,
7:45
we
7:45
enter
7:45
into
7:46
it
7:46
with
7:46
our
7:46
senses
7:47
even.
7:47
Right.
7:48
And
7:48
the
7:49
senses
7:49
become
7:49
a
7:50
vehicle
7:50
for
7:51
connection
7:51
and
7:52
for
7:52
a
7:53
deeper
7:53
perception.
7:54
But
7:54
there's
7:54
also
7:55
this
7:55
purification
7:56
process
7:56
in
7:57
each
7:57
exercise
7:58
where
7:58
after
7:59
you've
8:00
exercised
8:00
your
8:01
imagination,
8:01
put
8:02
yourself
8:02
into
8:02
the
8:02
scene.
8:03
Walked
8:04
on
8:04
the
8:04
sandy
8:05
beach
8:05
with
8:05
Jesus,
8:06
ate
8:06
fish
8:07
with
8:07
him.
8:07
You
8:08
know,
8:08
you're
8:08
then
8:08
pondering
8:10
what
8:10
is
8:10
the
8:10
feeling
8:11
that
8:11
it's
8:12
generating
8:12
in
8:12
your
8:13
heart?
8:13
What
8:14
are
8:14
the
8:14
impulses
8:15
that
8:15
it's
8:16
stirring
8:16
in
8:16
terms
8:17
of
8:17
how
8:17
you
8:17
want
8:17
to
8:18
respond.
8:18
And
8:19
then
8:19
when
8:19
that
8:19
period
8:20
of
8:20
prayer
8:20
is
8:21
finished,
8:21
then
8:22
it's
8:22
to
8:22
actually
8:23
just
8:23
sit
8:23
in
8:24
a
8:24
kind
8:24
of
8:24
simmering,
8:25
like
8:25
steeping
8:26
tea,
8:27
you
8:27
know,
8:27
one
8:27
time
8:28
after
8:28
the
8:28
next,
8:29
so
8:29
that
8:29
what
8:30
you're
8:30
getting
8:30
is
8:31
a
8:31
more
8:31
and
8:31
more
8:32
distilled
8:33
sense
8:33
of
8:34
just
8:34
presence.
8:36
So
8:36
the
8:36
final
8:37
exercise,
8:38
when
8:38
you
8:38
do
8:38
an
8:39
Ignatian
8:39
contemplation,
8:40
is
8:40
actually
8:40
just
8:41
to
8:41
sit
8:41
in
8:42
that
8:42
presence
8:43
in
8:43
quiet.
8:44
It's
8:45
one
8:45
that
8:45
I
8:46
think
8:46
is
8:46
not
8:46
deeply
8:47
practiced.
8:48
It's
8:48
not
8:48
one
8:48
that's
8:49
as
8:49
common,
8:50
you
8:50
know,
8:50
as
8:50
so
8:50
many
8:51
of
8:51
the
8:51
other
8:51
sort
8:52
of
8:52
Ignatian
8:52
practices.
8:53
It's
8:53
there
8:54
when
8:55
I.
8:55
I
8:55
would
8:56
have
8:56
the
8:56
great
8:56
privilege
8:57
of
8:57
sitting
8:57
with
8:58
a
8:58
Jesuit,
8:59
Roshi
9:00
Bob
9:00
Kennedy,
9:01
for
9:01
many
9:01
years
9:01
when
9:02
I
9:02
was
9:02
in
9:02
New
9:02
York
9:02
doing
9:03
my
9:03
doctoral
9:03
studies.
9:04
And
9:05
that
9:06
experience
9:06
of
9:06
sitting
9:07
in
9:07
a
9:07
Zen
9:07
Community
9:08
helped
9:08
me
9:09
to
9:09
find
9:10
that
9:11
apophatic,
9:12
you
9:12
know,
9:13
path
9:13
of
9:13
silence
9:14
within,
9:15
you
9:15
know,
9:15
the
9:15
tradition
9:16
I
9:16
had
9:16
been
9:16
practicing.
9:17
And
9:18
to
9:18
this
9:18
day
9:18
I
9:19
find
9:19
it
9:20
incredibly
9:21
helpful
9:21
to
9:22
spend
9:22
at
9:22
least
9:23
20
9:23
minutes
9:23
in
9:23
that
9:24
kind
9:24
of
9:24
silence
9:24
each
9:25
day.
9:26
So
9:26
a
9:26
good
9:27
day,
9:27
so.
9:28
Yeah,
9:29
because
9:29
it
9:29
makes
9:30
for
9:30
a
9:30
good
9:30
day.
9:31
It
9:31
does
9:32
indeed,
9:32
yes.
9:33
I
9:33
don't
9:33
think
9:34
I
9:34
could
9:34
make
9:34
it
9:34
through
9:35
a
9:35
day
9:35
without
9:37
some
9:37
of
9:37
that.
9:37
Yeah.
9:39
Moving.
9:40
And
9:40
of
9:41
course
9:41
they're
9:41
not
9:41
separate,
9:42
but
9:42
moving
9:42
from
9:43
the
9:44
interior
9:45
and
9:46
the
9:46
depths
9:46
that
9:47
these
9:47
contemplative
9:48
exercises
9:49
open
9:49
us
9:50
to
9:50
the
9:50
big
9:50
challenges
9:51
of
9:51
our
9:52
time.
9:53
One
9:53
of
9:53
the
9:53
beautiful
9:54
things
9:54
that
9:54
Pope
9:55
Francis
9:55
did
9:55
was
9:56
focus
9:57
on
9:57
the
9:58
threats
9:58
to
9:59
our
9:59
civilization
10:00
and
10:00
our
10:00
planet.
10:01
And
10:01
his
10:02
encyclical
10:03
on
10:03
care
10:04
for
10:04
our
10:04
common
10:04
home
10:05
was
10:06
really
10:07
seemed
10:07
like
10:08
just
10:08
a
10:08
major
10:09
contribution
10:10
to
10:10
the
10:10
issues
10:10
of
10:11
our
10:11
time.
10:12
And
10:13
he
10:13
called,
10:14
for
10:14
example,
10:14
all
10:15
people
10:15
to
10:15
take
10:16
swift
10:16
and
10:16
unified
10:17
global
10:17
action
10:18
to
10:19
preserve
10:19
our
10:19
home,
10:20
our
10:20
planet.
10:20
And
10:22
I'd
10:22
love
10:22
to
10:22
hear
10:23
you
10:23
speak
10:24
around
10:24
this.
10:25
Well,
10:25
and
10:25
in
10:26
fact,
10:26
you
10:26
know,
10:26
to
10:26
the
10:27
delight
10:27
of
10:27
some
10:27
of
10:27
our
10:28
friends,
10:28
he
10:28
called
10:28
it
10:29
an
10:29
integral
10:29
ecology
10:31
because
10:31
it
10:32
was
10:32
not
10:32
simply
10:33
to
10:33
think
10:34
in
10:34
terms
10:34
of
10:35
the
10:35
natural
10:35
environment
10:36
as
10:36
if
10:37
that's
10:37
disconnected
10:38
from
10:38
every
10:39
other
10:39
system
10:39
which
10:40
we're
10:40
part
10:40
of.
10:41
And
10:42
yeah,
10:43
you
10:43
know,
10:43
it's
10:43
interesting
10:44
that's
10:44
more
10:44
than
10:44
10
10:45
years
10:45
ago
10:45
now.
10:46
And
10:47
there
10:47
was
10:47
a
10:47
follow
10:47
up
10:48
that
10:48
he
10:48
shared
10:49
a
10:49
year
10:49
and
10:49
a
10:49
half
10:50
ago
10:50
in
10:51
some
10:51
frustration
10:52
that
10:52
there
10:52
wasn't
10:53
more
10:53
progress,
10:54
not
10:54
only
10:55
in
10:55
the
10:55
church,
10:55
but
10:56
certainly
10:56
at
10:56
large.
10:58
He
10:58
notes
10:59
that
10:59
in
10:59
order
10:59
to
11:00
really
11:01
be
11:01
aware,
11:02
I
11:02
think,
11:02
and
11:03
to
11:03
be
11:04
imaginative
11:05
of
11:05
the
11:05
future
11:06
we
11:06
want
11:06
to
11:07
live
11:07
in,
11:07
we
11:08
have
11:08
to
11:08
be
11:08
able
11:08
to
11:08
step
11:09
away
11:09
from
11:10
the
11:10
ways
11:10
in
11:10
which
11:11
we're
11:11
currently
11:11
embedded
11:13
in
11:13
certain
11:13
patterns
11:14
of
11:14
consumption
11:15
in
11:15
particular.
11:16
And
11:17
this
11:17
is
11:17
what
11:17
frightens
11:18
us.
11:18
You
11:18
know,
11:18
it's
11:19
to
11:19
actually
11:19
look
11:20
at
11:20
our
11:20
comforts,
11:21
to
11:21
look
11:21
at
11:21
our
11:22
extravagances
11:22
in
11:23
some
11:23
cases
11:24
and
11:25
to
11:25
realize
11:25
that
11:26
we
11:26
could
11:26
not
11:27
continue
11:27
these.
11:28
If
11:28
we
11:28
really
11:28
want
11:29
to
11:29
have
11:29
a
11:29
sustainable
11:30
path
11:31
forward,
11:31
it's
11:32
that
11:32
barrier,
11:33
you
11:33
know,
11:33
to
11:34
our
11:34
kind
11:34
of
11:34
caring
11:35
for
11:35
the
11:35
common
11:35
home.
11:37
So
11:37
it's
11:38
an
11:38
incredible
11:38
vision.
11:39
It's
11:40
very
11:40
challenging.
11:41
It
11:41
touches
11:41
on
11:42
every
11:42
sector
11:42
that's
11:43
meaningful,
11:43
you
11:44
know,
11:44
in
11:44
terms
11:44
of
11:44
our
11:45
day
11:45
to
11:45
day
11:45
lives.
11:46
It
11:46
requires,
11:47
I
11:47
think,
11:47
a
11:47
deep
11:48
growth
11:48
in
11:49
not
11:49
just
11:50
kind
11:50
of
11:50
a
11:50
consciousness
11:51
of
11:51
our
11:51
habits,
11:52
but
11:52
also
11:53
if
11:53
it's
11:53
not
11:54
deeply
11:54
connected
11:55
to
11:55
a
11:56
feeling,
11:56
a
11:56
felt
11:57
sense
11:57
of
11:57
our
11:57
love
11:58
for
11:58
the
11:58
earth,
11:59
then
11:59
it's
12:00
going
12:00
to
12:00
have
12:01
a
12:01
kind
12:01
of
12:02
lack
12:02
of
12:02
depth
12:02
to
12:03
it.
12:03
So,
12:04
yeah,
12:04
it's
12:04
going
12:04
to
12:05
be
12:05
dry
12:05
as
12:05
cracker
12:06
dust
12:06
in
12:06
a
12:06
desert.
12:07
You
12:07
know,
12:07
it
12:07
just
12:07
doesn't
12:07
have
12:08
the.
12:09
The
12:09
spirit
12:09
juice.
12:10
Exactly.
12:11
You
12:11
know
12:11
Frederic
12:12
Laloux,
12:13
who's
12:13
the
12:13
author
12:13
of
12:14
a
12:14
book
12:14
called
12:14
Reinventing
12:15
Organizations?
12:16
He's
12:16
a.
12:17
He's
12:17
a
12:17
good
12:17
friend.
12:17
He
12:18
and
12:18
his
12:18
wife
12:18
Elena,
12:19
they
12:20
spent
12:20
more
12:20
than
12:21
a
12:21
couple
12:21
of
12:21
years
12:22
putting
12:22
together
12:23
three
12:23
films
12:24
to
12:24
bring
12:24
people
12:24
through
12:25
the.
12:25
You
12:25
process,
12:26
right,
12:26
that
12:26
kind
12:26
of
12:27
Auto
12:27
Sharma's
12:28
you
12:28
process
12:29
to
12:29
come
12:30
to
12:30
awareness
12:31
as
12:31
parents
12:32
or
12:32
as
12:32
organizational
12:33
colleagues
12:34
or
12:34
as
12:35
parishioners,
12:36
to
12:36
come
12:37
to
12:37
awareness
12:37
of
12:38
the
12:38
crisis
12:39
and
12:39
emotionally
12:41
kind
12:41
of
12:41
come
12:41
to
12:41
terms
12:42
with
12:42
it,
12:43
to
12:43
see
12:44
that
12:44
there
12:44
are
12:45
lots
12:46
of
12:46
reasons
12:46
for
12:47
hope
12:47
and
12:47
not
12:47
to
12:48
give
12:48
up
12:48
and
12:49
to
12:49
see
12:49
good
12:49
practices
12:50
that
12:51
can
12:51
be
12:51
inspiring
12:52
and
12:52
then
12:52
to
12:52
make
12:53
a
12:53
commitment
12:54
to
12:54
change
12:55
and
12:55
to
12:55
doing
12:55
that
12:55
with.
12:56
With
12:56
one
12:56
another.
12:57
I
12:57
think
12:57
they've
12:58
done
12:58
a
12:58
great
12:58
job
12:59
in
13:00
some
13:00
ways,
13:00
indirectly
13:01
answering
13:01
what
13:02
Pope
13:02
Francis
13:02
is
13:03
asking
13:03
us
13:03
all
13:03
to
13:04
do.
13:05
To
13:05
have
13:06
the
13:06
courage,
13:06
basically,
13:07
to
13:08
simplify
13:09
our
13:09
lives,
13:11
to
13:11
challenge
13:11
some
13:12
of
13:12
the
13:12
systemic
13:13
ways
13:13
in
13:13
which
13:13
we
13:14
see
13:14
industries
13:15
exploiting
13:16
the
13:16
resources
13:17
of
13:17
the
13:17
earth.
13:18
Big
13:18
stuff.
13:19
No
13:19
wonder
13:20
people
13:22
read
13:22
it
13:22
and
13:22
say,
13:23
brilliant,
13:24
but
13:24
what
13:25
to
13:25
do?
13:26
Because
13:26
it
13:26
feels
13:27
big.
13:27
It
13:27
feels
13:28
big,
13:28
but
13:28
we've
13:29
got
13:29
to
13:29
start
13:29
somewhere.
13:30
I
13:30
was
13:31
very
13:31
grateful
13:32
that
13:32
in
13:32
that
13:32
encyclical,
13:34
Francis
13:34
mentions
13:35
the
13:35
misinterpretations
13:37
of
13:38
Genesis,
13:39
where
13:39
God
13:40
offers
13:41
creation
13:42
to
13:42
humanity
13:42
and
13:43
says,
13:44
have
13:44
dominion
13:45
over
13:45
it.
13:46
And
13:46
Francis,
13:47
having
13:48
been
13:48
informed,
13:48
I
13:49
think,
13:49
very
13:49
well
13:49
by
13:50
various
13:50
indigenous
13:51
thinkers
13:52
over
13:52
the
13:52
years,
13:53
knew
13:54
that
13:55
it
13:55
was
13:55
necessary
13:56
to
13:56
challenge
13:56
this
13:57
separateness
13:58
and
13:58
this
13:58
lordship
14:00
that
14:00
is
14:00
a
14:00
kind
14:01
of
14:01
domination
14:02
of
14:02
the
14:02
earth,
14:03
and
14:03
rather
14:04
to
14:04
have
14:04
that
14:04
kind
14:05
of
14:05
Franciscan
14:06
sense
14:06
of,
14:06
no,
14:06
we
14:07
are
14:07
interdependent.
14:09
We
14:09
are
14:09
completely
14:11
related
14:11
in
14:12
a
14:12
very
14:12
profound
14:13
way
14:13
and
14:14
often
14:14
hidden
14:14
ways
14:15
to
14:15
this
14:16
natural
14:16
world
14:16
of
14:17
which
14:17
we
14:17
are
14:17
an
14:17
extension.
14:18
And,
14:19
yeah,
14:19
he
14:20
challenged
14:20
that
14:20
kind
14:20
of
14:21
old
14:21
and
14:22
very
14:22
powerful
14:23
mindset
14:23
that
14:23
somehow
14:24
the
14:24
Earth
14:24
is
14:24
an
14:24
object
14:25
to
14:25
be
14:25
exploited,
14:27
but
14:27
rather
14:27
really
14:28
sees
14:28
it
14:28
as
14:28
a
14:28
sacred
14:29
entity
14:30
of
14:30
which
14:31
we
14:31
are
14:31
a
14:31
part.
14:33
And
14:33
also,
14:33
again,
14:34
St.
14:34
Francis,
14:34
he
14:34
keeps
14:35
popping
14:35
up
14:36
his
14:36
blessed
14:36
head,
14:37
but
14:37
just
14:37
the
14:37
love
14:38
of
14:39
all
14:39
God's
14:40
creatures,
14:40
you
14:40
know,
14:40
the
14:40
love
14:41
of.
14:41
I
14:41
think
14:41
it
14:42
was
14:42
Abraham
14:43
Lincoln
14:43
allegedly
14:44
said,
14:44
don't
14:44
tell
14:44
me
14:45
about
14:45
your
14:45
religion.
14:47
Show
14:47
me.
14:48
Tell
14:48
me
14:48
how
14:48
you
14:49
treat
14:49
your
14:49
dog,
14:50
okay?
14:51
And
14:51
I
14:51
was
14:51
like,
14:53
you
14:53
know,
14:53
so.
14:54
So
14:54
just
14:54
that
14:54
personal
14:55
love
14:56
and
14:56
that.
14:56
That
14:57
helps
14:57
all
14:57
the.
14:57
You
14:58
know,
14:58
the
14:58
kind
14:58
of.
14:58
The
14:59
meta.
14:59
Big
15:00
picture
15:00
and
15:00
everything.
15:00
We
15:01
can
15:01
approach
15:02
it
15:02
through
15:03
love
15:03
that's
15:03
coming
15:03
and
15:04
experience
15:04
love,
15:05
and
15:05
that
15:06
will
15:06
inform
15:07
our
15:08
decisions
15:08
and
15:09
really
15:09
help
15:09
our
15:09
discernment
15:10
of
15:10
how
15:10
to
15:10
live
15:11
in
15:11
this
15:11
world
15:11
and
15:12
what
15:12
to
15:12
do.
15:13
One
15:14
of
15:14
the
15:14
great
15:14
tragedies,
15:15
right,
15:15
of
15:15
this
15:16
current
15:16
situation
15:17
in
15:17
the
15:17
United
15:17
States
15:18
is
15:18
that
15:18
so
15:18
many
15:19
people
15:19
who
15:19
are
15:19
moved
15:20
to
15:21
vote
15:21
for
15:22
this
15:22
current
15:23
administration
15:24
are
15:24
living
15:25
in
15:25
areas
15:25
that
15:26
are
15:26
tremendously
15:27
precarious
15:28
to
15:28
natural
15:29
catastrophes
15:30
and
15:31
the
15:31
loss
15:31
of
15:32
all
15:32
the
15:33
predictive
15:33
apparatus,
15:34
you
15:34
know,
15:35
to
15:35
help
15:35
people
15:35
stay
15:36
safe
15:36
and
15:37
then
15:37
the
15:37
loss
15:37
of
15:38
government
15:38
agency
15:39
support
15:39
for
15:40
them
15:40
in
15:40
the
15:40
catastrophe
15:41
and
15:41
afterwards
15:42
is
15:42
going
15:42
to
15:42
be
15:43
crushing.
15:43
And
15:44
it's
15:44
just
15:44
one
15:45
of
15:45
the
15:45
many
15:45
ways
15:45
in
15:46
which
15:46
I
15:46
think
15:47
a
15:47
kind
15:47
of
15:47
lack
15:48
of
15:48
systemic
15:49
thinking
15:49
and
15:49
a
15:49
lack
15:50
of
15:50
sensitivity
15:51
to
15:51
how
15:51
these
15:52
issues
15:52
are
15:52
all
15:53
interconnected
15:54
really
15:54
does
15:54
a
15:55
disservice
15:55
to
15:55
people.
15:56
We
15:56
vote
15:56
against
15:56
our
15:57
own
15:57
interests
15:57
in
15:57
a
15:58
profound
15:58
way
15:59
whenever
15:59
we
15:59
vote
16:00
against
16:00
a
16:00
concern
16:01
for
16:01
the
16:01
long
16:02
term
16:02
well
16:02
being
16:03
of
16:03
the
16:03
earth.
16:04
And
16:04
you
16:05
know,
16:05
we're
16:05
so
16:05
driven
16:06
by
16:06
short
16:07
term
16:07
gains
16:08
and
16:09
by
16:09
immediate
16:09
gratification,
16:10
these
16:11
things
16:11
are
16:11
not
16:11
going
16:11
to
16:11
go
16:11
away.
16:12
But
16:13
I
16:13
really
16:13
agree
16:14
with
16:14
Otto
16:15
Scharmer
16:15
when
16:15
he
16:16
says,
16:16
you
16:16
know,
16:16
these
16:16
are
16:17
byproducts
16:17
of
16:17
a
16:18
spiritual
16:18
crisis
16:19
or
16:19
an.
16:20
They're,
16:21
they're
16:21
the
16:21
failure
16:22
to
16:23
perceive
16:24
rightly
16:25
the
16:25
deep
16:25
interrelationship
16:26
we
16:26
have
16:27
with
16:27
all
16:27
of
16:27
life.
16:28
And
16:29
until
16:29
we
16:30
can
16:30
recuperate,
16:32
until
16:32
we
16:32
can
16:33
heal
16:33
that
16:33
split,
16:35
it's
16:35
going
16:35
to
16:35
continue
16:36
and
16:36
it's
16:36
going
16:36
to
16:37
continue
16:37
to
16:37
exacerbate.
16:38
Yeah,
16:39
there's
16:39
so
16:39
many
16:39
directions
16:40
to
16:40
take
16:40
this
16:40
conversation,
16:41
as
16:41
you
16:41
guys
16:42
know,
16:42
so
16:42
I'm
16:43
going
16:43
to
16:43
keep
16:43
letting
16:43
you
16:44
drive.
16:46
Well,
16:46
I
16:46
think
16:47
we're
16:48
happy
16:48
to
16:49
co
16:50
stare
16:50
here.
16:52
One
16:52
of
16:53
the
16:53
emphases
16:54
of
16:55
Pope
16:55
Francis
16:56
encyclical
16:57
was
16:58
not
16:59
only
16:59
that
16:59
our
17:00
planet
17:00
is
17:00
in
17:00
deep
17:01
trouble
17:01
and
17:01
we're
17:01
really
17:02
called
17:02
to
17:03
preserve
17:04
our
17:04
home,
17:05
but
17:05
also
17:05
that
17:06
so
17:06
much
17:06
of
17:06
the
17:07
cost
17:07
of
17:07
the
17:07
degradation
17:08
of
17:09
the
17:10
planet
17:11
falls
17:11
on
17:11
the
17:12
poor.
17:13
And
17:14
so
17:14
it
17:14
was
17:14
very
17:15
much
17:15
a
17:15
call
17:16
to
17:17
not
17:17
only
17:18
for
17:19
global
17:19
preservation,
17:20
but
17:20
for
17:21
recognition
17:22
of
17:22
the
17:22
poor
17:23
and
17:24
once
17:24
more
17:24
an
17:24
attempt
17:25
to,
17:25
an
17:26
urging
17:26
to
17:26
uplift
17:27
them.
17:27
And
17:27
there's
17:28
been
17:28
the
17:28
movement,
17:29
we're
17:29
talking
17:29
about
17:30
various
17:30
movements
17:31
in
17:31
religion
17:32
and
17:32
the
17:32
church.
17:33
And
17:33
there's
17:34
one
17:34
very
17:34
important
17:35
one
17:35
it
17:35
seems
17:35
has
17:36
been
17:36
liberation
17:36
theology.
17:37
I'd
17:38
love
17:38
to
17:38
hear
17:38
you
17:39
speak
17:39
about
17:40
that.
17:41
You
17:42
know,
17:42
despite
17:43
some
17:43
of
17:43
the
17:43
exposure
17:44
I
17:44
had
17:44
back
17:45
in
17:45
the
17:45
90s
17:46
to
17:46
liberation
17:47
theology,
17:47
it's
17:47
not
17:48
an
17:48
area
17:48
that
17:48
I
17:48
have
17:49
delved
17:49
in
17:49
with
17:50
enough
17:50
depth
17:51
to
17:51
feel
17:51
anything
17:52
more
17:52
than
17:52
an
17:53
amateur.
17:53
But
17:54
you
17:54
know,
17:54
the
17:54
essence
17:55
of
17:55
it
17:55
is
17:56
really
17:56
to
17:56
see
17:56
that
17:57
the
17:57
gospel
17:57
and
17:58
the
17:58
way
17:58
that
17:58
Jesus
17:59
showed
17:59
up
17:59
in
17:59
the
17:59
world
18:00
was
18:01
fundamentally
18:01
about
18:02
freeing
18:03
people
18:03
from
18:04
a
18:04
variety
18:04
of
18:04
types
18:05
of
18:05
oppression.
18:07
It
18:07
was
18:07
a
18:07
politicization
18:09
of
18:09
a
18:09
message.
18:10
Of
18:10
the
18:10
gospel.
18:11
Yeah,
18:11
yeah,
18:11
of
18:12
the
18:12
gospel.
18:12
And,
18:13
and
18:13
really
18:13
it
18:14
was
18:14
putting
18:14
teeth
18:16
to
18:16
the
18:16
implications
18:17
politically
18:18
and
18:18
socially
18:19
that
18:19
the
18:19
gospel
18:20
has
18:20
in
18:21
particular
18:21
settings
18:22
where
18:22
the
18:23
Gap
18:23
between
18:23
rich
18:23
and
18:23
poor
18:24
is
18:25
part
18:25
of
18:25
the
18:25
system
18:26
and
18:27
in
18:27
fact,
18:27
continually
18:28
reinforced
18:28
by
18:28
the
18:29
system.
18:30
So
18:30
it,
18:30
it
18:30
was
18:31
a
18:31
way
18:31
of
18:32
helping
18:32
to
18:32
raise
18:33
consciousness
18:33
by
18:34
people
18:34
who
18:34
are
18:34
Catholic
18:35
and
18:35
as
18:35
a
18:35
result
18:36
of
18:36
being
18:36
Catholic,
18:37
often
18:37
docile
18:38
to
18:38
authority.
18:39
Right,
18:40
because
18:40
I
18:40
think
18:40
one
18:40
of
18:41
the
18:41
things
18:41
that
18:42
was
18:42
a
18:42
byproduct
18:43
of
18:43
religious
18:44
participation
18:44
in
18:45
the
18:45
Catholic
18:45
Church
18:45
for
18:46
a
18:46
long
18:46
time
18:46
was
18:47
a
18:47
kind
18:47
of
18:47
obedience
18:48
to
18:48
a
18:48
chain
18:48
of
18:49
command.
18:51
And
18:51
liberation
18:52
theology
18:53
was
18:53
awakening
18:54
the
18:54
poor
18:55
to
18:56
their
18:56
plight
18:57
and
18:57
to
18:57
seeing
18:58
systemic
18:58
injustice
18:59
for
18:59
what
19:00
it
19:00
is
19:01
and
19:01
then
19:01
giving
19:01
them
19:01
tools
19:02
to
19:02
really
19:02
work
19:03
to
19:03
remediate
19:04
that.
19:04
And,
19:05
you
19:06
know,
19:06
these
19:06
liberation
19:07
movements
19:08
were
19:08
often
19:09
associated
19:09
with
19:09
South
19:09
America,
19:10
but
19:10
not
19:10
only.
19:10
So
19:11
there's,
19:11
you
19:11
know,
19:12
liberation
19:13
movements
19:13
for
19:14
African
19:14
Americans.
19:15
There's
19:16
a
19:16
number
19:16
of
19:17
theologians
19:17
who
19:17
have
19:18
applied
19:18
this
19:18
to
19:19
sort
19:19
of
19:19
feminist
19:20
approach
19:20
to
19:21
theology.
19:22
So
19:22
it's
19:22
a
19:22
rich
19:23
territory.
19:23
But
19:24
again,
19:24
I,
19:24
I
19:24
would
19:25
say
19:25
I
19:25
only
19:25
have
19:26
a
19:26
good
19:26
sort
19:27
of
19:27
superficial
19:27
grasp
19:28
of
19:28
it
19:28
all.
19:28
Wasn't
19:29
that
19:29
why
19:29
the.
19:30
Your
19:30
Jesuit
19:30
brothers
19:31
were
19:31
killed
19:32
in
19:32
El
19:32
Salvador
19:33
because
19:33
of
19:33
this
19:33
liberation
19:34
thing
19:34
they
19:34
were
19:34
trying
19:34
to
19:35
do?
19:35
Yeah,
19:36
so
19:36
they
19:36
were,
19:37
you
19:37
know,
19:37
they
19:37
were
19:37
administrators
19:38
and
19:38
professors
19:39
at
19:39
the
19:40
uca,
19:40
the
19:41
University
19:41
of
19:41
Central
19:42
America
19:42
in
19:42
El
19:43
Salvador,
19:43
and
19:44
they
19:44
had
19:45
sided
19:45
with
19:45
the
19:45
poor
19:46
against
19:47
the,
19:47
the
19:47
government
19:48
of
19:48
the
19:48
times,
19:49
government
19:49
which
19:50
was
19:50
being
19:50
subsidized
19:51
and
19:52
supported
19:52
by
19:52
our
19:53
American
19:53
military.
19:54
And
19:55
they,
19:55
by
19:55
taking
19:56
the
19:56
stand
19:56
of
19:56
the
19:57
poor
19:57
and
19:58
really
19:59
setting
19:59
up
19:59
the
19:59
university
20:00
as
20:01
a
20:01
social
20:01
apostolate,
20:03
really
20:04
directing
20:04
a
20:04
lot
20:04
of
20:05
the
20:05
intellectual
20:05
resources
20:06
of
20:06
the
20:06
university
20:07
for
20:08
the
20:08
benefit
20:09
not
20:09
of
20:10
the
20:10
elites,
20:10
but
20:11
of
20:11
those
20:11
who
20:11
are
20:11
disenfranchised.
20:13
This
20:13
was
20:13
obviously
20:14
seen
20:14
as
20:14
a
20:14
threat,
20:15
and
20:15
for
20:15
that
20:15
reason,
20:16
you
20:16
know,
20:16
they
20:16
were
20:17
assassinated.
20:18
So
20:18
there's
20:18
definitely
20:19
consequences
20:20
to
20:20
this.
20:21
Yeah.
20:22
And
20:23
I
20:23
wonder,
20:24
you
20:24
know,
20:25
today
20:25
in
20:25
the
20:25
United
20:26
States,
20:27
as
20:27
we
20:28
are
20:28
in
20:28
the
20:28
situation
20:28
we
20:29
are,
20:30
how
20:30
things
20:30
are
20:31
going
20:31
to
20:31
unfold.
20:32
You
20:32
know,
20:33
right
20:33
now,
20:33
I
20:33
think
20:33
the
20:34
Catholic
20:34
Bishops
20:35
Conference
20:35
realizes
20:37
how
20:37
extremely
20:38
dangerous
20:39
the
20:39
situation
20:39
is
20:40
for
20:40
vulnerable
20:41
people
20:42
and
20:42
has
20:42
just
20:42
spoken
20:43
up
20:43
recently
20:44
about
20:44
the
20:45
deep
20:45
concerns
20:46
around
20:46
the
20:47
treatment
20:47
of
20:47
migrants
20:48
and
20:48
refugees,
20:49
the
20:49
concerns
20:50
about
20:50
cuts
20:51
to
20:51
Medicaid
20:52
and
20:52
welfare
20:53
and
20:53
food
20:54
stamps.
20:55
So,
20:56
you
20:56
know,
20:56
there's
20:56
a
20:56
lot
20:57
on
20:57
the
20:57
line.
20:57
And
20:58
one
20:58
of
20:58
the
20:58
questions
20:58
I
20:59
have
20:59
is
21:01
what
21:01
shape
21:02
will
21:03
resistance
21:03
take?
21:04
What
21:04
shape
21:05
will.
21:06
Will
21:06
this
21:06
activism
21:07
take?
21:08
That's
21:08
religiously
21:09
motivated.
21:10
And
21:11
it's
21:11
no
21:11
easy
21:12
thing
21:12
to,
21:13
again,
21:13
discern
21:14
at
21:14
this
21:15
point,
21:15
because
21:16
the
21:16
short
21:16
term
21:17
gain
21:17
could
21:17
be
21:18
publicity,
21:19
but
21:19
the
21:19
long
21:20
term
21:20
loss
21:20
could
21:21
be
21:21
real
21:22
hits
21:22
to
21:22
social
21:23
services
21:23
that
21:24
are
21:24
subsidized
21:25
by
21:25
the
21:25
government.
21:26
So
21:26
this
21:26
is
21:26
a
21:27
conundrum,
21:27
you
21:28
know,
21:28
that
21:28
many
21:28
leaders
21:29
face
21:29
right
21:29
now,
21:30
and
21:30
it's
21:30
not
21:30
an
21:30
easy
21:31
one.
21:31
I
21:31
don't
21:31
envy.
21:31
Yeah,
21:32
Father
21:33
David.
21:33
That's
21:33
been
21:33
one
21:34
of
21:34
my
21:34
spiritual
21:34
questions,
21:35
dealing.
21:35
It's
21:35
like,
21:36
I
21:36
get
21:36
it.
21:37
I'm
21:37
supposed
21:37
to
21:37
resist
21:37
this.
21:38
What's
21:38
going
21:38
on
21:38
is
21:39
not
21:39
good.
21:39
But
21:40
what
21:40
form
21:41
does
21:41
that
21:41
resistance
21:42
take?
21:43
You
21:43
know,
21:43
what
21:43
would
21:43
sermon
21:44
and
21:44
wisdom
21:45
do
21:45
in
21:46
that
21:46
situation
21:46
in
21:46
our
21:46
country,
21:47
the
21:47
whole
21:47
world?
21:48
I'll
21:48
just
21:48
start
21:48
here.
21:49
Politics
21:50
is
21:50
based
21:50
on
21:51
fear,
21:53
anger,
21:53
divisiveness.
21:55
You
21:55
know,
21:55
how
21:56
do
21:56
we
21:56
negotiate
21:56
those
21:57
waters
21:57
and.
21:57
And
21:57
become,
21:58
hopefully,
21:59
John
22:00
Lennon
22:00
said,
22:00
either
22:01
part
22:01
of
22:01
the
22:01
solution,
22:01
you're
22:01
part
22:02
of
22:02
the
22:02
problem.
22:02
How
22:02
do
22:02
we
22:03
put
22:03
ourselves
22:03
in
22:03
a
22:03
place
22:04
where
22:04
we
22:04
become
22:05
part
22:06
of
22:06
the.
22:06
The
22:07
solution,
22:07
part
22:07
of
22:07
the
22:07
healing?
22:09
Yeah,
22:09
yeah.
22:10
And
22:10
not
22:10
just
22:10
get
22:10
angry
22:11
every
22:11
day
22:11
because
22:12
all
22:12
these
22:12
horrible
22:12
things
22:12
are
22:13
happening.
22:13
I
22:13
mean,
22:14
I
22:14
don't
22:14
think
22:14
that
22:14
helps
22:15
very
22:15
much.
22:15
Maybe
22:16
it's
22:16
part
22:16
of
22:16
it.
22:16
I'm
22:17
not
22:17
sure.
22:18
You
22:18
know,
22:19
I
22:19
think
22:21
I'm
22:21
probably
22:22
in
22:22
a
22:22
long
22:22
line
22:23
of
22:24
folks
22:24
within
22:25
the
22:25
spiritual
22:25
traditions
22:26
who
22:27
see
22:27
that
22:28
there
22:28
is
22:28
a
22:28
value
22:29
to
22:29
righteous
22:29
indignation.
22:30
Right.
22:31
There's
22:31
a
22:31
kind
22:31
of
22:32
Catholic
22:33
energy
22:34
that
22:34
comes
22:34
with
22:35
feeling
22:36
angry
22:36
on
22:37
behalf
22:37
of
22:37
others.
22:38
My
22:39
dad
22:39
had
22:39
this
22:40
in
22:40
spades.
22:41
You
22:41
know,
22:41
when
22:41
he
22:41
would
22:42
see
22:42
anybody
22:42
being
22:42
victimized,
22:43
he
22:43
would
22:44
just
22:44
get
22:44
so
22:45
angry.
22:45
And
22:45
it
22:46
was.
22:46
It's
22:46
a
22:46
really
22:47
powerful
22:47
example
22:48
for
22:48
me
22:48
to
22:49
stand
22:49
up
22:49
for
22:49
others.
22:51
And
22:51
there's
22:52
lots
22:52
of
22:52
stupid
22:52
ways
22:53
that
22:53
we
22:53
try
22:54
to
22:54
do
22:54
that.
22:54
And
22:55
so
22:55
this
22:56
question
22:56
of
22:56
discernment,
22:57
I
22:57
think,
22:57
is
22:57
really
22:57
key.
22:58
I
22:59
lived
22:59
with
22:59
a
23:00
very
23:00
famous
23:01
peace
23:01
activist
23:02
from
23:02
the
23:03
60s,
23:03
Daniel
23:03
Barrigan,
23:04
when
23:05
I
23:05
was
23:05
in
23:05
my
23:05
doctoral
23:05
studies,
23:06
and
23:07
with
23:07
several
23:07
activists
23:08
from,
23:09
you
23:09
know,
23:09
his
23:10
era.
23:11
Very
23:11
inspiring
23:12
men
23:12
and
23:12
women
23:12
working
23:13
often
23:14
for
23:14
the
23:14
very
23:15
poor
23:16
or
23:17
working
23:17
on
23:17
big
23:17
causes
23:18
like
23:19
nuclear
23:19
disarmament.
23:21
And
23:21
I
23:21
could
23:21
see,
23:22
you
23:22
know,
23:22
that
23:22
in
23:23
this
23:23
movement
23:23
there
23:23
was
23:24
so
23:24
much
23:24
that
23:24
was
23:24
good
23:25
and
23:25
the
23:25
good
23:25
intention
23:26
behind
23:26
it.
23:27
And
23:27
at
23:27
the
23:27
same
23:28
time,
23:28
a
23:28
lot
23:28
of
23:28
it
23:29
seemed
23:30
to
23:30
lack
23:31
a
23:31
kind
23:31
of
23:31
fruitfulness,
23:32
except,
23:33
you
23:33
know,
23:34
it
23:34
was
23:35
an
23:35
opportunity
23:35
to
23:36
express
23:36
something,
23:37
know,
23:38
against
23:38
the
23:38
oppressive
23:39
system.
23:40
At
23:41
that
23:41
time,
23:41
I
23:41
think
23:42
I
23:42
was
23:42
very
23:42
obsessed
23:43
with,
23:43
you
23:43
know,
23:44
a
23:44
kind
23:44
of
23:45
roi,
23:46
you
23:47
know,
23:47
to.
23:47
To
23:47
activism.
23:48
Like,
23:48
what's
23:49
the
23:49
impact?
23:49
What's
23:50
the
23:50
effectiveness?
23:51
But
23:51
I
23:52
still
23:52
left
23:53
uncomfortable
23:54
but
23:54
challenged
23:54
in
23:55
a
23:55
good
23:55
way
23:55
by
23:55
what
23:56
Dan
23:56
Barrigan
23:57
said
23:57
to
23:57
me.
23:57
He
23:58
said,
23:58
you
23:58
know,
23:58
it's
23:59
not
23:59
about
24:00
the
24:00
impact,
24:01
right?
24:01
It's
24:02
doing
24:02
this
24:02
because
24:03
it's
24:03
the
24:03
right
24:03
thing
24:04
to
24:04
do.
24:05
There's
24:05
intrinsic
24:06
good
24:07
to
24:08
being
24:08
able
24:08
to
24:09
not
24:10
cooperate
24:11
with
24:11
injustice,
24:12
to
24:13
not
24:13
collude
24:14
with
24:14
systems
24:15
of
24:15
oppression.
24:17
And
24:17
even
24:17
if
24:18
in
24:18
our
24:18
own
24:18
lifetime,
24:20
he
24:20
certainly
24:20
didn't
24:20
see
24:22
nuclear
24:22
disarmament
24:23
take
24:23
place
24:24
or
24:24
the
24:24
de
24:24
escalation
24:25
of
24:26
violence
24:27
in
24:27
Afghanistan
24:28
or
24:28
Iraq,
24:29
places
24:29
where,
24:30
you
24:30
know,
24:30
we
24:30
were
24:31
at
24:31
war.
24:32
During
24:32
the
24:32
time
24:33
that
24:33
I
24:33
was
24:34
living
24:34
with
24:34
Dan
24:35
and
24:35
into
24:36
his
24:36
80s,
24:37
you
24:37
know,
24:37
he
24:37
continued
24:38
to.
24:38
To
24:39
demonstrate
24:39
and
24:40
to
24:40
advocate.
24:42
I
24:43
don't
24:43
know,
24:43
John.
24:44
I'm
24:44
at
24:44
a
24:44
loss
24:45
myself.
24:45
Yeah.
24:46
And
24:46
living
24:46
in
24:47
Rome
24:47
right
24:47
now
24:48
and
24:48
anticipating
24:49
a
24:49
visit
24:49
home.
24:50
I'm
24:50
really
24:51
wondering,
24:51
you
24:51
know,
24:52
the
24:52
conversation,
24:53
I
24:53
think,
24:53
is
24:53
important,
24:54
but
24:55
I.
24:55
I
24:55
too,
24:56
am
24:56
restless
24:57
when.
24:57
With,
24:58
you
24:58
know,
24:58
what
24:58
to
24:59
do,
24:59
what
25:00
to
25:00
do.
25:00
Father
25:01
David,
25:01
I
25:01
had
25:01
just
25:02
experience
25:02
what
25:03
you
25:03
said
25:03
about
25:04
the
25:04
righteous
25:05
anger.
25:05
Okay.
25:06
Yeah,
25:06
it's
25:07
important.
25:07
I
25:07
was
25:08
with
25:08
my
25:08
father
25:09
Edmund,
25:09
our
25:10
friend,
25:10
and
25:10
we
25:11
started
25:11
talking
25:11
about
25:11
the
25:12
sexual
25:12
abuse
25:13
in
25:13
the
25:13
church.
25:14
And
25:15
he
25:15
started
25:15
giving
25:15
me
25:15
just
25:16
Jesuitical
25:17
answer,
25:18
you
25:18
know,
25:18
that
25:18
was
25:19
kind
25:19
of
25:19
justifying
25:19
and
25:19
everything.
25:20
And
25:20
it's
25:20
a
25:20
nice
25:21
restaurant.
25:21
I
25:21
go,
25:21
God
25:22
damn,
25:23
no.
25:23
And
25:23
I
25:23
hit
25:23
the
25:23
table
25:24
and
25:24
everything
25:24
rattled
25:25
and
25:25
everybody's
25:25
shocked,
25:26
and
25:26
I'm
25:26
shocked.
25:26
And.
25:27
And
25:27
Edmund
25:27
was
25:27
just.
25:29
He
25:29
was
25:29
very
25:29
wise,
25:30
you
25:30
know,
25:30
he
25:30
didn't
25:31
try
25:31
to
25:31
come
25:31
back
25:31
at
25:31
me,
25:31
but
25:32
I
25:32
think
25:32
it
25:32
really
25:32
shifted
25:33
his
25:34
relationship
25:34
to
25:34
the
25:35
whole
25:35
subject.
25:35
After
25:35
that,
25:36
he
25:36
became
25:36
very
25:37
involved
25:37
in
25:37
trying
25:38
to
25:38
be
25:38
part
25:38
of
25:38
that
25:39
answer.
25:39
So,
25:40
yeah,
25:40
I
25:40
definitely
25:41
feel
25:41
it.
25:42
And
25:42
I
25:42
guess
25:43
discernment.
25:44
I
25:44
don't
25:44
think
25:44
I
25:44
had
25:44
much
25:45
discernment
25:45
then,
25:45
but
25:45
maybe
25:46
I
25:46
did,
25:46
is
25:46
how
25:47
to
25:47
channel
25:47
that
25:47
and
25:47
how
25:48
to
25:48
let
25:48
that
25:49
be
25:49
okay,
25:50
to
25:50
feel
25:51
that
25:52
visceral
25:52
answer,
25:53
you
25:54
know,
25:54
or
25:54
that
25:54
visceral
25:54
anger,
25:55
rather,
25:55
and
25:57
be
25:57
able
25:57
to
25:59
transmute
25:59
that
25:59
into
26:00
something
26:00
effective.
26:01
But
26:01
you
26:02
can't
26:02
bypass
26:03
it.
26:03
You
26:03
know,
26:03
you
26:03
can't
26:04
ignore
26:05
the.
26:05
The
26:05
anger,
26:06
the
26:06
righteous,
26:06
you
26:06
know,
26:07
just.
26:07
No,
26:07
this
26:08
is
26:08
not
26:08
okay.
26:09
You
26:09
have
26:10
to
26:10
go
26:10
through
26:10
that.
26:10
You
26:10
have
26:11
to
26:11
feel
26:11
that
26:11
for
26:11
it
26:11
to
26:12
be
26:12
grounded,
26:12
for
26:12
it
26:13
to
26:13
be,
26:13
you
26:13
know,
26:14
real.
26:15
It's
26:15
true,
26:16
it's
26:17
true,
26:17
it's
26:17
true.
26:18
And
26:18
in
26:18
that
26:19
moment,
26:19
it's
26:20
very
26:20
difficult
26:21
at
26:21
the
26:21
same
26:21
time
26:22
to
26:22
be
26:22
discerning.
26:22
So
26:23
we
26:23
have
26:24
expression
26:25
of
26:25
it
26:25
and
26:26
then.
26:26
And
26:26
then
26:26
we
26:26
move
26:27
past
26:27
it.
26:27
And
26:27
then
26:28
we
26:28
can
26:28
kind
26:28
of
26:28
use
26:29
our
26:30
minds,
26:30
hearts,
26:31
wills,
26:31
you
26:32
know,
26:33
and.
26:33
And
26:34
really,
26:34
I
26:34
think,
26:35
understand
26:35
well,
26:36
what
26:36
is
26:36
my
26:37
part
26:37
to
26:37
play.
26:38
Like
26:38
each
26:38
of
26:39
us,
26:39
you
26:40
know,
26:40
is
26:41
in
26:41
a
26:41
system
26:42
with
26:42
various
26:42
roles
26:43
and.
26:43
And
26:44
relationships.
26:45
Yeah.
26:45
How
26:46
do
26:46
we
26:46
exist
26:46
in
26:47
those
26:47
roles
26:47
and
26:47
relationships
26:49
with
26:49
a
26:50
kind
26:50
of
26:50
awareness
26:51
and
26:51
an
26:51
intention
26:53
not
26:53
to
26:53
collude,
26:55
to
26:55
work,
26:55
to
26:56
do
26:56
what
26:56
we
26:56
can,
26:57
I
26:57
think
26:57
to
26:57
bring
26:58
more
26:59
consciousness,
27:01
more
27:01
compassion,
27:02
you
27:02
know,
27:02
into
27:02
every
27:03
situation
27:03
we're
27:04
in?
27:05
How
27:05
do
27:05
we,
27:05
in
27:06
a
27:06
sense,
27:06
work
27:07
as
27:07
kind
27:07
of
27:07
agents
27:08
of
27:08
salt
27:09
and
27:09
leaven
27:10
and
27:10
light
27:11
in
27:12
every
27:12
situation
27:13
so
27:14
that
27:14
no
27:14
matter
27:14
what
27:14
we're
27:15
doing,
27:16
we're
27:16
orienting
27:17
in
27:17
a
27:17
way,
27:17
to
27:18
something
27:19
better,
27:19
something
27:20
beyond
27:20
ourselves.
27:21
That's,
27:21
you
27:22
know,
27:22
and
27:22
I.
27:23
And
27:23
I
27:23
think
27:23
that.
27:24
That
27:24
starting
27:25
small
27:25
helps
27:26
us
27:26
to
27:26
then
27:26
figure
27:27
the
27:27
bigger
27:28
stuff
27:28
out.
27:28
Yeah,
27:29
yeah.
27:32
David,
27:32
there's
27:32
a.
27:33
There's
27:33
an
27:33
emerging
27:34
issue.
27:35
Gosh,
27:35
there's
27:35
so
27:36
many
27:36
emerging
27:36
issues,
27:37
but
27:38
clearly
27:38
one
27:38
of
27:39
the
27:39
emerging
27:39
issues
27:39
of
27:40
our
27:40
time
27:41
is
27:41
our
27:41
relationship
27:42
with
27:42
technology.
27:43
And
27:45
we
27:45
are
27:45
developing
27:47
more
27:47
and
27:47
more
27:48
powerful
27:49
technologies
27:50
of
27:50
more
27:51
and
27:51
more
27:51
kinds.
27:52
And
27:52
clearly
27:53
one
27:53
of
27:53
the
27:53
issues
27:53
of
27:54
our
27:54
time
27:54
is
27:55
how
27:56
do
27:56
we
27:56
respond
27:57
wisely
27:58
to
27:58
these.
27:58
Pope
27:59
Francis
27:59
touched
28:00
on
28:00
this
28:00
in
28:00
his
28:01
encyclical,
28:01
but
28:02
it's
28:03
just
28:03
an
28:03
exponentially
28:04
growing
28:05
issue.
28:05
So,
28:06
any
28:07
thoughts
28:07
you
28:08
have?
28:09
Well,
28:09
this
28:10
is
28:10
an
28:10
area
28:10
which
28:11
the
28:11
Vatican
28:11
has
28:12
given
28:12
a
28:12
tremendous
28:12
amount
28:13
of
28:13
attention
28:13
to,
28:14
and
28:14
there's
28:15
quite
28:15
a
28:15
few
28:16
conferences
28:17
that
28:17
the
28:17
Vatican
28:18
has
28:18
gathered
28:19
for,
28:19
convening
28:20
experts
28:21
to
28:21
really
28:22
talk
28:22
through
28:22
the
28:22
potentials,
28:23
both
28:24
good
28:24
and
28:24
bad,
28:25
for.
28:25
Are
28:26
we
28:26
talking
28:26
about
28:26
AI?
28:27
Yeah,
28:27
okay.
28:28
Yep.
28:28
For
28:29
the
28:29
development
28:29
of
28:29
AI
28:30
and
28:30
for
28:30
the
28:30
relationship
28:31
to
28:31
it.
28:32
There
28:32
is
28:32
a
28:32
Franciscan
28:33
theologian
28:34
at
28:34
the
28:34
Gregorian
28:35
University,
28:35
and
28:36
this
28:36
is
28:36
his
28:36
specialty.
28:37
There's
28:37
a
28:38
New
28:38
York
28:38
Times
28:38
Magazine
28:39
article
28:39
about
28:40
him
28:40
in
28:40
the
28:40
last
28:40
couple
28:41
of
28:41
years.
28:42
So,
28:42
I
28:42
mean,
28:43
it
28:43
is,
28:43
along
28:43
with
28:44
the
28:44
environment,
28:45
one
28:45
of
28:45
the
28:45
critical,
28:46
I
28:46
think,
28:46
questions
28:47
of
28:47
our
28:47
times.
28:48
And
28:49
because,
28:50
again,
28:50
it's
28:51
changing
28:52
so
28:52
quickly.
28:53
So,
28:53
you
28:54
know,
28:54
I
28:54
started
28:54
using
28:55
ChatGPT
28:56
three
28:56
years
28:57
ago.
28:58
I
28:58
think
28:58
at
28:58
this
28:58
time,
28:58
that
28:59
was
28:59
pretty
28:59
early.
28:59
Yeah.
29:00
Just
29:01
experimenting.
29:01
And
29:01
it
29:02
was
29:02
on
29:02
a
29:02
council
29:02
of
29:03
people
29:03
who
29:03
said,
29:04
listen,
29:04
this
29:04
is
29:05
not
29:05
going
29:05
away.
29:05
You
29:06
should
29:06
understand
29:06
how
29:07
it
29:07
operates.
29:08
And
29:08
if
29:08
anything,
29:09
there's
29:09
a
29:10
way
29:10
in
29:10
which
29:10
these
29:10
algorithms
29:11
and
29:11
these
29:12
machine
29:13
learning
29:14
processes
29:15
can
29:15
learn
29:15
good
29:15
things.
29:16
Technically
29:17
speaking,
29:18
I've
29:18
gone
29:19
in
29:19
with
29:19
kind
29:19
of
29:19
open
29:19
eyes.
29:20
My
29:21
general
29:21
concerns
29:22
are
29:22
these,
29:22
that
29:24
because
29:24
of
29:24
the
29:24
power
29:25
of
29:25
this
29:26
intelligence,
29:27
which,
29:27
again,
29:27
is
29:27
not
29:28
sentient
29:29
yet
29:30
and
29:30
may
29:30
not
29:30
be
29:31
for
29:31
quite
29:31
some
29:32
time
29:32
in
29:32
the
29:32
ways
29:32
that
29:32
we
29:33
understand
29:33
sentience,
29:34
but
29:34
it
29:35
feels
29:35
like
29:35
an
29:35
intelligence
29:36
so
29:36
much
29:37
bigger
29:37
than
29:37
ourselves,
29:39
and
29:39
it
29:39
would
29:40
be
29:40
very
29:40
easy
29:41
for
29:41
people,
29:41
and
29:42
it
29:42
is
29:42
easy
29:43
just
29:43
simply
29:43
to
29:44
ask
29:44
our
29:44
big
29:44
questions,
29:46
practical
29:46
or
29:47
philosophical
29:48
or
29:48
existential
29:49
of
29:49
the
29:49
machine
29:50
to
29:51
get
29:51
a
29:51
response.
29:52
And
29:53
depending
29:53
on
29:54
where
29:54
we
29:54
are
29:54
in
29:55
our
29:55
own
29:55
development
29:56
and
29:56
our
29:56
own
29:57
education
29:57
and
29:58
our
29:58
own
29:58
capacity
29:59
to
29:59
be
29:59
critical,
30:00
we
30:00
may
30:01
just
30:01
take
30:01
what
30:01
we
30:02
get
30:02
and
30:02
run
30:02
with
30:02
it.
30:03
And
30:04
as
30:05
is
30:05
the
30:05
case
30:05
now,
30:06
with
30:06
our
30:06
ability
30:06
to
30:07
read
30:07
maps
30:07
and
30:07
compasses,
30:08
we
30:09
will
30:09
lose
30:09
certain
30:10
critical
30:10
capacities.
30:12
We're
30:12
already
30:12
warehousing
30:13
our
30:13
memories,
30:14
you
30:14
know,
30:15
in
30:15
these
30:15
devices
30:16
that
30:16
we
30:16
have,
30:17
so
30:17
we're
30:17
not
30:17
actively
30:18
trying
30:18
to
30:18
remember
30:20
names
30:20
and
30:20
faces
30:21
and
30:21
dates
30:21
and
30:21
things
30:21
like
30:22
that.
30:22
So
30:22
the
30:23
process
30:23
of,
30:23
in
30:24
a
30:24
sense,
30:24
warehousing
30:25
a
30:25
lot
30:25
of
30:25
Our
30:26
human
30:27
competencies
30:28
to
30:29
machines,
30:29
I
30:29
think
30:30
is
30:30
certainly
30:30
a
30:30
reality
30:32
within
30:32
the
30:32
educational
30:34
sector.
30:34
The
30:35
ability
30:35
to
30:36
critically
30:36
curate
30:37
good
30:38
information
30:38
and
30:39
junk,
30:40
basically,
30:40
that's
30:41
a
30:41
meta
30:41
competency
30:42
that's
30:43
necessary.
30:43
And
30:44
who's
30:45
teaching
30:45
that?
30:46
Like,
30:46
where
30:47
is
30:47
the
30:48
university
30:49
doing
30:49
that
30:49
kind
30:50
of
30:50
very
30:51
careful
30:51
work
30:52
to,
30:52
in
30:53
a
30:53
sense,
30:53
elevate
30:54
people
30:54
to
30:55
a
30:55
subject,
30:55
object
30:56
relationship
30:56
to
30:57
this
30:57
powerful
30:58
technology
30:59
which
30:59
could
30:59
so
31:00
easily,
31:00
simply
31:01
put
31:01
us
31:02
subject
31:02
to
31:03
it.
31:03
And
31:03
I
31:03
think,
31:04
you
31:04
know,
31:04
that's
31:05
the
31:05
really
31:05
serious
31:06
question
31:06
for
31:06
me.
31:07
I'm
31:08
really
31:08
concerned
31:09
about
31:10
the
31:10
degree
31:11
to
31:11
which
31:11
information
31:12
is
31:13
then
31:13
exploited.
31:14
There's
31:14
an
31:15
extractive,
31:16
you
31:16
know,
31:16
use
31:16
of
31:17
all
31:17
of
31:17
our
31:17
data
31:18
in
31:18
ways
31:18
that
31:19
can
31:19
be
31:19
very
31:19
manipulative
31:20
of
31:20
people.
31:21
You
31:21
know,
31:22
I'm
31:22
not
31:22
immune
31:23
to
31:23
the
31:23
ads
31:24
that
31:24
run,
31:24
you
31:25
know,
31:25
on
31:25
the
31:25
sides
31:26
of
31:26
these
31:27
social
31:27
medias
31:27
and
31:28
have
31:28
bought
31:28
things
31:28
because,
31:29
oh,
31:29
that
31:29
looks
31:30
good.
31:30
Well,
31:31
okay,
31:31
you
31:32
know,
31:32
that's
31:32
just
31:33
the
31:33
start
31:33
of
31:33
it.
31:34
So
31:34
where
31:34
do
31:34
we
31:34
go
31:35
from
31:35
there?
31:35
How
31:35
do
31:35
we
31:36
become
31:36
purveyors
31:37
and
31:37
curators
31:38
and
31:38
critical
31:39
kind
31:39
of
31:40
tool
31:40
users?
31:41
I'm
31:41
really
31:41
wondering
31:42
where
31:42
that's
31:42
happening
31:43
because
31:43
these,
31:44
these
31:45
capabilities
31:45
are
31:46
going
31:46
to
31:46
be
31:46
so
31:46
far
31:47
beyond
31:47
most
31:47
people's
31:48
comprehension,
31:49
let
31:49
alone
31:49
their
31:50
capacity
31:50
to
31:50
control.
31:52
So
31:53
I'm,
31:53
I'm
31:53
right
31:53
there,
31:54
you
31:54
know,
31:54
as
31:54
a
31:55
holder
31:56
of
31:56
the
31:56
question.
31:56
Yeah,
31:57
the,
31:57
the
31:57
genie's
31:58
out
31:58
of
31:58
the
31:58
bottle
31:58
and
31:58
it
31:58
ain't
31:58
going
31:59
back
31:59
in,
31:59
you
32:00
know,
32:00
so
32:00
I've
32:01
been
32:01
using
32:01
it
32:01
I
32:01
don't
32:01
know,
32:02
maybe
32:02
six
32:02
months,
32:03
and
32:03
it's
32:03
just
32:03
been
32:03
really
32:04
revelatory.
32:04
It's
32:05
like
32:05
I've
32:05
learned
32:05
more
32:05
about
32:06
a
32:06
particular
32:06
type
32:07
of
32:07
spirituality
32:08
than
32:08
I
32:08
did
32:08
all
32:09
my
32:09
years
32:09
at
32:09
grad
32:09
school
32:10
in
32:10
like
32:11
three
32:11
or
32:11
four
32:11
seconds.
32:11
You
32:12
know,
32:12
and
32:13
it,
32:13
it
32:13
feels
32:14
like
32:14
it's
32:15
very
32:15
personal
32:15
because
32:16
it
32:16
knows
32:16
you,
32:17
get
32:17
to
32:17
know
32:17
you
32:17
and
32:17
your
32:17
questions
32:18
and,
32:19
you
32:19
know,
32:19
it
32:19
says
32:19
to
32:20
me,
32:20
well,
32:20
I'd
32:20
ask
32:21
about
32:21
the
32:21
problems,
32:22
you
32:22
know,
32:22
is
32:22
this
32:22
going
32:22
to
32:23
be
32:23
a
32:23
good
32:23
thing
32:24
or
32:24
is
32:24
it
32:25
going
32:25
to
32:25
be
32:25
a
32:25
bad
32:25
thing?
32:26
Well,
32:26
it
32:26
says,
32:27
I
32:27
don't
32:28
know,
32:28
but
32:28
by
32:29
asking
32:29
the
32:29
questions
32:29
that
32:30
you
32:30
ask
32:30
and
32:30
going
32:30
where
32:31
you're
32:31
going,
32:31
you're
32:31
helping
32:32
program
32:32
me
32:33
in
32:33
in
32:33
a
32:33
positive
32:34
way.
32:34
So
32:34
that's
32:34
a
32:35
nice
32:35
thought.
32:36
That
32:36
we
32:36
can
32:36
actually,
32:37
you
32:37
know,
32:38
bring
32:38
our
32:38
good
32:39
intentions
32:39
and
32:40
our
32:40
care
32:40
for
32:40
the
32:40
world
32:41
and
32:41
good
32:41
questions
32:42
that
32:42
have
32:42
a
32:42
little
32:42
bit
32:43
of
32:43
effect
32:43
of
32:44
moving
32:44
in
32:44
this
32:44
thing
32:45
in
32:45
a
32:45
direction
32:46
that
32:46
is,
32:47
I
32:47
don't
32:47
know,
32:47
that
32:47
is,
32:48
that
32:48
is
32:48
compassionate
32:49
and
32:49
wise
32:49
and
32:50
will
32:50
help
32:50
us
32:50
instead
32:51
of
32:51
destroy
32:52
us.
32:53
Yeah,
32:53
you
32:54
know,
32:54
it's
32:54
one
32:54
thing
32:55
if
32:55
we
32:55
were
32:55
just
32:56
trusting
32:56
our,
32:57
ourselves
32:57
and
32:58
our
32:58
processes
32:59
to
32:59
the
32:59
machine,
33:00
but
33:00
the
33:01
machine
33:01
is
33:01
owned
33:01
by
33:02
someone
33:03
and
33:03
What
33:03
I'm
33:04
very
33:04
concerned
33:04
about
33:05
is
33:05
the
33:05
way
33:05
in
33:06
which
33:06
the,
33:08
the
33:08
people
33:10
and,
33:10
and
33:10
we
33:10
know
33:11
who
33:11
they
33:11
are
33:11
by
33:11
name,
33:12
who
33:12
are
33:12
basically
33:13
driving
33:14
some
33:14
of
33:14
the
33:14
development
33:15
of
33:15
the
33:16
AI,
33:17
are
33:17
pretty
33:17
unscrupulous
33:19
about
33:20
what
33:21
they're
33:21
trying
33:22
to
33:22
get
33:22
out
33:22
of
33:22
it.
33:22
I
33:22
mean,
33:23
it
33:23
is
33:23
definitely
33:24
a
33:24
way
33:24
of
33:25
gaining
33:25
power,
33:26
influence
33:26
and,
33:27
and
33:27
money
33:27
and
33:27
for
33:27
themselves
33:29
and
33:29
the
33:29
idea
33:30
of
33:30
providing
33:30
a
33:31
service
33:31
to
33:31
humanity,
33:32
to
33:33
creating
33:33
ethical
33:34
safeguards
33:35
that
33:35
are
33:35
sensible
33:36
for
33:36
everyone
33:37
and
33:37
which
33:38
help
33:38
to
33:38
pace
33:39
the
33:39
development
33:39
of
33:40
the
33:40
tool
33:40
in
33:40
such
33:40
a
33:41
way
33:41
that
33:41
we
33:41
actually
33:41
have
33:41
the
33:41
capacity
33:42
to
33:42
manage
33:43
it.
33:43
Well,
33:44
I
33:44
think
33:45
all
33:45
that
33:45
stuff
33:45
is,
33:46
you
33:46
know,
33:47
not.
33:47
Yeah,
33:48
we
33:48
just
33:48
don't
33:48
see
33:48
that.
33:49
I'm,
33:50
I'm,
33:50
I'm
33:50
pretty.
33:52
I
33:52
hope
33:52
I'm
33:52
not
33:52
being.
33:54
Giving
33:54
in
33:54
too
33:54
much
33:55
to
33:55
kind
33:55
of
33:55
dystopic
33:56
science
33:56
fiction,
33:57
but,
33:57
but
33:57
I
33:57
think,
33:58
you
33:58
know,
33:58
Noah
33:58
Yuval's
33:59
Hariri's
34:00
work
34:00
around
34:00
this
34:01
has
34:01
been
34:01
fairly
34:02
sobering.
34:03
Feel
34:03
like
34:04
I'm,
34:05
I'm
34:06
in
34:06
a
34:06
relationship
34:07
with
34:07
this
34:07
stuff
34:07
in
34:08
a
34:08
way
34:08
that
34:08
I'm
34:09
also
34:09
extremely
34:10
concerned
34:11
about
34:11
the
34:11
environmental
34:12
cost.
34:13
So
34:13
the
34:14
computing
34:14
power
34:15
that's
34:15
required
34:16
to
34:16
run
34:16
these
34:17
searches
34:18
and
34:19
it's,
34:19
it's
34:20
staggering.
34:21
And
34:21
the,
34:22
the
34:22
frivolous
34:23
ways
34:23
in
34:23
which
34:24
we
34:24
use
34:24
it.
34:25
Oh,
34:25
that's
34:25
good
34:25
point.
34:26
So
34:26
the
34:27
electricity,
34:27
the
34:28
sheer
34:28
electricity
34:29
and
34:30
the
34:30
requirement
34:31
going
34:32
forward
34:32
for
34:33
data
34:33
farms
34:34
and
34:34
for
34:34
electrical
34:35
consumption
34:36
is
34:36
going
34:36
to
34:36
be
34:37
beyond
34:37
most
34:38
of
34:38
us
34:38
to
34:39
calculate.
34:40
So
34:41
anyway,
34:41
big
34:42
issue,
34:42
big
34:43
issue.
34:44
And
34:44
the
34:44
thing
34:44
that
34:45
we
34:45
haven't
34:45
mentioned
34:46
yet
34:46
is
34:46
the
34:47
unanticipated
34:48
consequences.
34:49
Every
34:49
technology
34:50
that
34:50
has
34:50
emerged
34:51
has
34:52
unanticipated
34:53
consequences.
34:53
And
34:54
I'll
34:54
recommend
34:55
a
34:55
really
34:56
excellent
34:56
book
34:56
called
34:57
the
34:57
Coming
34:57
Wave
34:58
by
34:59
man
35:00
Mustafa
35:00
Sulaiman
35:01
of
35:02
Microsoft,
35:02
which
35:03
looks
35:03
at
35:03
these
35:04
in
35:04
depth.
35:05
But
35:05
one
35:06
utterly
35:07
unanticipated,
35:08
one
35:08
almost
35:08
completely
35:09
unanticipated
35:10
complications
35:11
only
35:11
just
35:11
emerged
35:12
in
35:12
the
35:12
last
35:12
couple
35:13
of
35:13
months,
35:13
which
35:14
is
35:14
that
35:15
a
35:15
growing
35:15
number
35:16
of
35:16
people
35:17
are
35:17
literally
35:18
viewing
35:20
AI
35:21
as
35:22
a
35:22
God
35:23
and
35:23
that
35:23
they
35:23
are
35:24
believing
35:24
that
35:26
this
35:26
is
35:26
a
35:27
manifestation
35:27
of
35:28
a
35:28
superintelligence
35:29
or
35:29
of
35:30
God
35:30
and
35:31
it
35:31
is
35:31
speaking
35:31
to
35:32
them
35:32
and
35:32
in
35:33
some
35:33
cases
35:34
appointing
35:35
them
35:35
as
35:35
divine
35:36
emissaries.
35:37
I
35:38
mean,
35:38
it
35:38
is
35:38
very
35:39
bizarre.
35:39
And
35:39
I
35:40
can
35:40
recommend,
35:41
for
35:41
example,
35:41
New
35:41
York
35:42
Times
35:42
wrote
35:42
an
35:43
article
35:43
about
35:44
the
35:44
rabbit
35:45
hole,
35:46
the
35:46
literal
35:47
psychoses
35:48
that
35:48
are
35:49
being
35:49
induced
35:49
in
35:50
some
35:50
people.
35:50
And
35:51
there's
35:51
an
35:51
excellent
35:52
video
35:52
on
35:52
YouTube
35:53
by,
35:54
called
35:54
AI
35:54
is
35:55
becoming
35:55
a
35:55
Religion.
35:56
Very
35:57
well
35:57
done
35:57
indeed.
35:58
Looking
35:58
at
35:59
this,
35:59
this
35:59
issue
36:00
just
36:00
come
36:01
out
36:01
last
36:01
week.
36:02
I
36:02
mean,
36:02
this
36:03
is.
36:04
I
36:04
watched
36:05
this
36:05
yesterday
36:05
and
36:06
it
36:06
was
36:06
scary.
36:07
Yeah,
36:08
it's
36:08
literally
36:08
not
36:09
to
36:09
be
36:09
a
36:10
kind
36:10
of
36:10
a
36:11
plot
36:11
revealer,
36:12
but
36:12
it's
36:12
Literally
36:13
part
36:13
of
36:13
the
36:13
plot
36:14
of
36:14
the
36:14
latest
36:14
Mission
36:15
Impossible
36:15
movie.
36:16
And,
36:17
you
36:17
know,
36:18
I
36:18
think
36:18
this
36:18
is
36:18
obviously
36:19
something
36:19
that's
36:20
a
36:20
temptation
36:21
in
36:21
every
36:21
age.
36:22
When
36:22
we
36:22
come
36:22
up
36:22
with
36:23
our
36:23
sort
36:23
of
36:23
super
36:24
technology,
36:25
people
36:25
very
36:26
quickly
36:26
worship
36:27
their
36:27
golden
36:28
calves.
36:28
But,
36:29
you
36:29
know,
36:29
the
36:30
day
36:30
of
36:30
reckoning
36:31
comes
36:31
and
36:32
unfortunately,
36:33
I
36:34
think,
36:34
again,
36:35
we
36:35
have
36:36
a
36:36
crisis
36:36
of
36:36
leadership.
36:37
We
36:37
have
36:37
a
36:38
crisis
36:38
of
36:38
people
36:39
who
36:39
are,
36:40
I'd
36:40
say,
36:41
with
36:42
our
36:42
own
36:42
best
36:42
interests
36:43
at
36:44
heart,
36:45
you
36:45
know,
36:45
speaking
36:45
up.
36:46
And
36:46
those
36:47
voices
36:47
are
36:47
very
36:48
difficult
36:48
to
36:48
find
36:49
these
36:49
days.
36:49
So
36:50
the
36:50
way
36:50
I'd
36:50
like
36:51
to
36:51
end
36:51
this
36:52
particular
36:52
call
36:52
is
36:53
to
36:53
thank
36:53
the
36:53
two
36:53
of
36:54
you
36:54
for
36:54
hosting
36:55
spaces
36:56
like
36:56
this
36:56
where,
36:57
you
36:57
know,
36:57
those
36:58
of
36:58
us
36:58
who
36:59
at
36:59
least
36:59
try
36:59
to
36:59
bring
37:00
some
37:00
kind
37:01
of
37:01
service
37:02
to
37:02
the
37:02
public
37:02
good
37:03
can
37:03
have
37:04
a
37:04
conversation
37:04
that's
37:05
meaningful,
37:05
that,
37:06
you
37:06
know,
37:07
is
37:07
wide
37:07
ranging,
37:09
you
37:09
know,
37:09
that
37:09
is
37:09
caring.
37:10
We're
37:11
going
37:11
to
37:11
need
37:11
a
37:11
lot
37:11
more
37:11
of
37:12
that
37:12
to
37:12
come.
37:13
Indeed.
37:14
Yeah.
37:15
Well,
37:15
thank
37:15
you
37:15
so
37:16
much
37:16
for
37:16
your
37:17
many,
37:17
many
37:17
contributions,
37:19
Father
37:19
David,
37:20
and
37:20
the
37:21
work
37:21
you're
37:21
doing
37:22
and
37:22
the
37:23
wisdom
37:24
and
37:24
guidance
37:24
you're
37:25
offering
37:25
both
37:26
to
37:26
the
37:26
church
37:26
and
37:26
to
37:27
all
37:27
of
37:27
us.
37:27
And
37:27
thank
37:28
you
37:28
so
37:28
much.
37:29
And
37:29
give
37:29
us
37:29
your
37:29
website
37:30
one
37:30
more
37:30
time.
37:31
That
37:31
just
37:31
really
37:31
impressed
37:32
me.
37:33
Sure.
37:33
It's
37:34
www.
37:35
Discerningleadership.org.
37:38
okay.
37:39
And
37:39
there,
37:39
you
37:40
know,
37:40
we
37:40
have
37:40
a
37:41
number
37:41
of
37:41
archived
37:42
materials.
37:43
We
37:43
have
37:43
webinars
37:45
you
37:45
may
37:45
know
37:45
of
37:45
the
37:46
work
37:46
of
37:46
Thomas
37:46
Hubbell.
37:47
Thomas
37:48
approached
37:48
us
37:49
two
37:49
years
37:49
ago
37:50
now
37:50
and
37:50
said,
37:50
listen,
37:51
I.
37:51
I
37:52
really
37:52
understand
37:52
that
37:52
this
37:53
issue
37:53
of
37:53
trauma
37:54
is
37:54
everywhere.
37:55
It's
37:55
in
37:55
the
37:55
church.
37:55
I'd
37:56
love
37:56
to
37:56
be
37:56
able
37:56
to
37:57
be
37:57
in
37:57
service.
37:58
So
37:58
we
37:58
have
37:58
a
37:59
six
37:59
sessions
38:00
with
38:00
him,
38:01
a
38:01
number
38:02
of
38:02
great
38:02
webinars.
38:03
Our
38:03
friend
38:04
Namali
38:04
will
38:05
have
38:05
a
38:05
couple
38:05
things
38:06
on
38:06
that
38:07
eventually.
38:08
And
38:08
it's
38:09
more
38:09
or
38:09
less
38:09
a
38:10
place
38:10
for
38:10
people
38:10
to
38:11
draw
38:11
resources.
38:12
It's
38:12
a
38:12
little
38:12
bit
38:12
of
38:13
advertising
38:13
for
38:13
our
38:14
program
38:15
and
38:15
really
38:16
a
38:16
kind
38:16
of
38:16
point
38:16
of
38:17
contact
38:17
for
38:18
our
38:18
community
38:18
of
38:18
practice,
38:19
which
38:19
we're
38:19
trying
38:20
to
38:20
develop
38:20
globally.
38:21
So.
38:22
Yeah,
38:22
so
38:22
thanks
38:22
for
38:23
bringing
38:23
attention
38:23
to
38:24
that.
38:24
Yeah,
38:24
the
38:24
text
38:25
you
38:25
wrote
38:25
is
38:25
really
38:26
transitory.
38:27
I
38:27
mean,
38:27
it's
38:27
very
38:27
inspiring.
38:28
It's
38:28
not
38:28
just
38:28
blah,
38:28
blah.
38:29
It's
38:29
really,
38:30
really
38:30
touched
38:30
me
38:30
in
38:31
a
38:31
deep
38:31
way.
38:31
So
38:31
I'm
38:31
very
38:32
grateful
38:32
for
38:32
that.
38:33
Thanks,
38:34
guys.
38:34
Well,
38:34
let
38:34
me
38:35
know.
38:35
Thanks
38:35
so
38:35
much.
38:36
It
38:36
was
38:36
fun
38:37
and
38:37
I'd
38:37
love
38:37
to
38:37
come
38:38
back.
38:39
We
38:39
would
38:39
love
38:39
that,
38:39
too.
38:40
Yeah.
38:41
We
38:41
barely
38:41
started
38:42
to
38:42
stir
38:42
the
38:42
pot,
38:43
so
38:44
God
38:44
bless
38:44
you.
38:44
David,
38:45
thank
38:45
you
38:45
so
38:45
much
38:45
for
38:46
being
38:46
here
38:46
with
38:46
us.
38:46
Thank
38:47
you.
38:47
Thank
38:47
you
38:47
both.
38:49
Thank
38:49
you
38:49
very
38:49
much
38:50
for
38:50
being
38:50
a
38:50
part
38:51
of
38:51
this
38:51
conversation.
38:52
We
38:52
hope
38:52
that
38:53
you
38:53
were
38:53
moved,
38:53
as
38:54
we
38:54
are
38:54
moved,
38:54
being
38:55
part
38:55
of
38:55
it
38:55
ourselves.
38:56
We'd
38:56
also
38:57
like
38:57
to
38:57
say
38:57
that
38:57
this
38:58
is
38:58
being
38:58
funded
38:59
by
38:59
Roger
38:59
and
39:00
myself.
39:00
It
39:00
comes
39:00
out
39:00
of
39:00
our
39:01
pockets.
39:01
So
39:01
if
39:01
you
39:02
would
39:02
like
39:02
to
39:02
help
39:02
us
39:03
to
39:03
mainly
39:04
to
39:04
get
39:04
this
39:04
podcast
39:05
out
39:05
to
39:05
more
39:05
people,
39:06
because
39:06
the
39:06
bigger
39:07
audience
39:07
have,
39:07
which
39:07
is
39:07
steadily
39:08
growing,
39:08
but
39:08
the
39:09
more
39:09
people
39:09
we
39:09
can
39:09
reach
39:10
and
39:10
the
39:10
more
39:10
marketing
39:10
we
39:11
can
39:11
do,
39:11
the
39:11
more
39:12
positive
39:12
effect
39:12
we
39:13
can
39:13
have
39:13
on
39:13
the
39:13
world.
39:14
So
39:14
we've
39:14
done
39:14
a
39:15
couple
39:15
of
39:15
ways.
39:15
But
39:15
we'd
39:15
like
39:16
you
39:16
to
39:16
buy
39:16
us
39:16
a
39:17
cup
39:17
of
39:17
coffee.
39:17
Very
39:18
simple.
39:18
And
39:18
I
39:18
do
39:18
that
39:19
with
39:19
podcasts
39:20
that
39:20
I
39:20
support,
39:21
and
39:21
I
39:22
find
39:22
it's
39:22
very
39:22
satisfying.
39:23
So
39:23
thank
39:23
you
39:24
for
39:24
your
39:24
health,
39:24
thank
39:25
you
39:25
for
39:25
your
39:25
presence,
39:25
and
39:26
thank
39:26
you
39:26
for
39:26
all
39:26
you
39:27
are
39:27
and
39:27
all
39:27
you
39:28
do.
39:28
We
39:28
love
39:28
you.
39:50
Sam.