Latest / The Trauma Therapist / GUEST HOST: Brooke Bralove with Esther Boykin - Cultivating Compassion & Community on Retreats

Transcript

GUEST HOST: Brooke Bralove with Esther Boykin - Cultivating Compassion & Community on Retreats · The Trauma Therapist

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  Speaker 1: Welcome to the special guest host series of The Trauma
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: Therapist Podcast, where I'm going to be handing over to
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  Speaker 1: mic to some incredible guest hosts. In each episode, you'll
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  Speaker 1: hear fresh perspectives and unique insights to inform and inspire you,
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  Speaker 1: all the while keeping the heart of this podcast alive.
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  Speaker 1: So sit back and enjoy.
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  Speaker 2: Hi, and welcome to the Trauma Therapist Podcast. I'm your
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  Speaker 2: guest host, Rock bray Love. I'm a licensed clinical social worker, psychotherapist,
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  Speaker 2: trauma therapist, and ASEX certified sex therapist and I practice
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  Speaker 2: just outside Washington, DC and I've been in private practice
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  Speaker 2: twenty one years. I'm super excited to be back here.
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  Speaker 2: Thank you guys for inviting me back for another guest host.
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  Speaker 2: And I'm super excited today because I am going to
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  Speaker 2: be having a wonderful conversation with my very very close friend,
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  Speaker 2: Esther Boykin. So, first of all, welcome, Welcome.
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  Speaker 3: Thank you. I am thrilled to be here. It is well,
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  Speaker 3: it's always fun to catch up with you, but in particular,
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  Speaker 3: I'm excited for this conversation.
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  Speaker 2: Great, all right, so let me give you a little intro.
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  Speaker 2: Ester Boykan is a licensed marriage and Family therapist, executive coach,
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  Speaker 2: and founder of the Compassion Collective retreat for high achieving
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  Speaker 2: Women of Color. A TTEX speaker and president of NAMI DC,
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  Speaker 2: she merges clinical expertise and business acumen to spark transformation.
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  Speaker 2: Explore her work at estherboykan dot com and you can
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  Speaker 2: follow her at esther DMFT. So let's just get right
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  Speaker 2: into it. First of all, I thought it'd be fun
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  Speaker 2: to share sort of how we know each other and
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  Speaker 2: you know that sort of thing. I want to share that.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, so I was trying to do the math. I
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  Speaker 3: think ten she's probably about ten or eleven years ago.
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  Speaker 3: I actually discovered kind of a non profit community project
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  Speaker 3: that was just starting called sidewalk Talk, which is now
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  Speaker 3: like an international, massive nonprofit community listening project all over
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  Speaker 3: the globe, but at the time it was just in
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  Speaker 3: San Francisco. I reached out and I was like, I
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  Speaker 3: want to bring this to DC, and I think that
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  Speaker 3: it was our very it was either our first or
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  Speaker 3: second listening events, and so just a quick sidewalk talk
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  Speaker 3: is basically like show up on the sidewalk and listen,
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  Speaker 3: like present active listening. And I loved the idea, but
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  Speaker 3: it was sort of new and I was like, is
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  Speaker 3: this going to work? Is this?
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  Speaker 2: And then here comes Brooke, Yeah, and it was.
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  Speaker 3: I feel like it was such a fun and kind
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  Speaker 3: of exciting thing for us to do and also a
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  Speaker 3: really great way to kind of build a friendship.
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  Speaker 2: So I thought we'd with just maybe an understanding of
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  Speaker 2: what compassion and self compassion means to you personally but
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  Speaker 2: professionally and kind of how you understand it. Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: You know, it's interesting because I think self compassion compassion
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  Speaker 3: in general, but self compassion in particular. I think a
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  Speaker 3: lot of us, as therapists have at some point. You know,
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  Speaker 3: you've read Kristenev's book, you're sort of familiar with this concept.
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  Speaker 3: But I think for me, and particularly over the last
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  Speaker 3: like five to six years, like in my own personal
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  Speaker 3: well longer than that, seventy eight years in my own
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  Speaker 3: personal journey, as well as clinically working with clients and
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  Speaker 3: particular clients from you know, black clients, clients of color,
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  Speaker 3: but generally I also just work with a lot of
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  Speaker 3: clients who have various marginalized identities, and more and more
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  Speaker 3: I found myself in this space of like self care
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  Speaker 3: is important, but self care is so insufficient to actually
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  Speaker 3: help us to thrive and survive through the kinds of
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  Speaker 3: things that I was experiencing and my clients are experiencing,
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  Speaker 3: both systemically in society, but also you know, like I
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  Speaker 3: went through a divorce, my children, went off to colleague,
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  Speaker 3: all of these things, and I was like, yeah, these
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  Speaker 3: week these daily walks and my salads and my massages,
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  Speaker 3: like it's great, but it's not enough. And so that
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  Speaker 3: for me, I think was kind of the unconscious impetus
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  Speaker 3: that'd be like, okay, like what if I lean into
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  Speaker 3: self compassion a little bit more? Which really led me
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  Speaker 3: to shifting some of the ways I show up with
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  Speaker 3: my clients and my clinical approach is really kind of
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  Speaker 3: what if we make self compassion kind of the formula here,
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  Speaker 3: what would that look like and how does that change things?
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  Speaker 3: And for me, I've found again both personally and in
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  Speaker 3: my you know, clinical work with clients, and even outside
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  Speaker 3: of you know, doing in some of the other settings
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  Speaker 3: that I do work in, really finding like, oh, the
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  Speaker 3: self compassion is like a game changer.
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  Speaker 2: It's almost it sounds like you've you've really just like
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  Speaker 2: put it front and center as a real foundation that
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  Speaker 2: we all need rather than like, yeah, self care is
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  Speaker 2: important here and here just really grounding yourself in that
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  Speaker 2: self compassion practice. And what does self compassion sort of entail?
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  Speaker 2: What goes into it? Yeah?
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  Speaker 3: I also like it because I love a good formula.
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  Speaker 3: I love a good framework. So, you know, if you
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  Speaker 3: look at the research, basically we talk about self compassion
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  Speaker 3: as having three core pillars self kindness, mindful awareness, common humanity.
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  Speaker 3: And I think the other piece for this for me
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  Speaker 3: has been I think it gives a framework that people
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  Speaker 3: can understand and helps us to then develop an approach
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  Speaker 3: a way of being not just some things to do,
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  Speaker 3: but a way of actually being with yourself, a way
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  Speaker 3: of being in the world, being in relationship is looking
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  Speaker 3: at these three things. And so the self kindness I
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  Speaker 3: tend to think that's kind of where a lot of
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  Speaker 3: our self care stuff lives. How do you treat yourself kindly?
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  Speaker 3: You know? And beyond doing self care activities, how do
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  Speaker 3: you talk to yourself? What is that inner narrative?
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  Speaker 1: You know?
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  Speaker 3: Like it taps into so much of the work that
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  Speaker 3: we do with clients anyway, but then gives them a
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  Speaker 3: way to think about it, a real framework of like
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  Speaker 3: this is something you practice for yourself, on and on
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  Speaker 3: and on.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think that when I work with folks,
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  Speaker 2: you know, they'll just be like, you know, I suck
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  Speaker 2: at self compassion right, as if it's kind of a switch.
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  Speaker 2: And so I do think using that word practice changes everything. Yeah,
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  Speaker 2: because we're not supposed to be you know, good at
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  Speaker 2: it or bad at it, or we do it or
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  Speaker 2: we don't. You have to work at it. It takes
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  Speaker 2: time and it has to build.
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  Speaker 3: There's a way of showing up in your life, right,
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  Speaker 3: Like I mean the example I often will get to
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  Speaker 3: people like you know, if you find people who meditate frequently,
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  Speaker 3: what they talk about is their practice, their meditation practice,
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  Speaker 3: like because every day is going to be different. Sometimes
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  Speaker 3: it's great, sometimes it's not great, but every day I'm
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  Speaker 3: on this journey. And I think shifting to that framework
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  Speaker 3: really helps for me. It has helped a lot of
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  Speaker 3: clients actually become a little bit gentler with themselves of like, yeah,
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  Speaker 3: like you're never you're not going to get this perfectly
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  Speaker 3: every day. You're not supposed to.
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  Speaker 2: Right, and that you don't you know, hit some you know,
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  Speaker 2: you don't get a ribbon like I have mastered self
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  Speaker 2: compassion It's something that will be with you throughout your
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  Speaker 2: entire life and need to be You need to up
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  Speaker 2: the ante some days and some days it comes.
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  Speaker 3: More easily m h exactly.
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  Speaker 2: So what sort of inspired you then to create this
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  Speaker 2: structured compassion collective retreat program? Which is so awesome that
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  Speaker 2: you've done this and you've got one coming up soon,
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  Speaker 2: and you're always I always esther's everywhere, so I always
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  Speaker 2: see you know stuff, even though I'm close with you
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  Speaker 2: and talk to you every time. I'm like doing this
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  Speaker 2: now and she's in that place. So tell us what
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  Speaker 2: inspired you?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I I think as a that you
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  Speaker 3: probably can relate to this, Like you start after you've
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  Speaker 3: been a therapist for a long time, like particularly if
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  Speaker 3: you have a clear niche, Like eventually you're like, oh,
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  Speaker 3: like I have like six clients, and if I could
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  Speaker 3: just get y'all to get like, if you all would
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  Speaker 3: just hang out on the weekends, that relationship, that friendship
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  Speaker 3: would be like such a game changer in our work.
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  Speaker 3: And it really is a little bit of that. Like
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  Speaker 3: I definitely had a couple of clients who where it
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  Speaker 3: was just like I think even in session and sometimes
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  Speaker 3: I just be like I want you to know that
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  Speaker 3: you're like not alone in this, Like I like, I
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  Speaker 3: am working with other people who are saying the same thing.
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  Speaker 3: And so I really started thinking about I was like,
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  Speaker 3: what is the ethical way to make that happen? And
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  Speaker 3: then beyond that was sort of really going like part
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  Speaker 3: of me continuously having that thought is it really is
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  Speaker 3: rooted in this idea that like, they need more than
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  Speaker 3: what we can do in fifty minutes a week. They
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  Speaker 3: need something different than what I can provide in just
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  Speaker 3: doing individual or even in couples therapy. They need community
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  Speaker 3: of people who are also on these journeys, practicing these skills,
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  Speaker 3: wanting to heal, wanting to grow, wanting to transform. Because
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  Speaker 3: that was sort of this constant theme. And then what
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  Speaker 3: I in particular was finding is, particularly for my black
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  Speaker 3: female clients and women in color in general, was there
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  Speaker 3: was even less opportunity for that connection. There was you know,
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  Speaker 3: I knew of other programs, of groups of retreats, of
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  Speaker 3: things for them to do, but they were it was
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  Speaker 3: also replicating the same experience that they have at work.
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  Speaker 3: You're the only or you're one of two in a room.
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  Speaker 3: And I was I was like, well, let me I
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  Speaker 3: literally did. I took put my business hat and I
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  Speaker 3: literally did like market research, and I just sent a
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  Speaker 3: bunch of some current clients, some of them were former clients,
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  Speaker 3: and really just said like, I'm really brainstorming of ways
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  Speaker 3: to show up and to provide care and to pride services.
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  Speaker 3: Here are some of the things that I have in mind,
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  Speaker 3: and this retreat program in particular was one of them.
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  Speaker 3: And it was a very particular thing because I was like,
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  Speaker 3: I could do like a weekend retreat or a week
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  Speaker 3: long retreat, and then I was like, we could also
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  Speaker 3: do this other thing where it's like a retreat and
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  Speaker 3: ongoing community, where it's like I will create some containers
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  Speaker 3: for you all to stay connected after the retreats. And
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  Speaker 3: that was the thing that like most people came back
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  Speaker 3: and they're like, if you can do like when does
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  Speaker 3: it start? Like are we doing it next month? When
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  Speaker 3: do we get into it? And so I think there
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  Speaker 3: was both my gut feeling and then actually hearing from
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  Speaker 3: clients who were like, yeah, no, that's actually that would
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  Speaker 3: be great, and particularly from clients who were you know,
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  Speaker 3: maybe they're seeing me once a month or maybe they
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  Speaker 3: were done with therapy, who were saying I still need care,
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  Speaker 3: and I really like that's something I would invest in
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  Speaker 3: to take care of myself.
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  Speaker 2: Differently, Yeah, well, I love starting out, you know, with
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  Speaker 2: a retreat I've done. I'm a certified Daring Wave facilitator,
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  Speaker 2: as you know, so I facilitate Brenee Brown's Shame Resilience curriculum,
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  Speaker 2: the power of the group, right, just in general what
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  Speaker 2: that does. And it's amazing the bonds that can be
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  Speaker 2: formed in such a short amount of time. But I
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  Speaker 2: think one thing that was often missing is that continuity
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  Speaker 2: of care. Right. You have this amazing experience where you
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  Speaker 2: feel bonded, you learned a lot, and you're all gung ho,
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  Speaker 2: and then sometimes there's not this sort of plan for after.
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  Speaker 2: So I think it's amazing that you offer that, and
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  Speaker 2: I'm sure people are so grateful for it. So let's
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  Speaker 2: talk about maybe the pros and cons of creating groups
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  Speaker 2: and retreats for very specific demographics. You know, you mentioned
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  Speaker 2: black women or women of color for the Compassion collected,
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  Speaker 2: but also women's groups versus WED groups. What are your
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  Speaker 2: thoughts about that?
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  Speaker 3: No, I think there's a time and a place and
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  Speaker 3: a value for both. I think in this particular kind
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  Speaker 3: of moment of time there and maybe in all of
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  Speaker 3: modern history this is probably true. We're just sort of
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  Speaker 3: acutely aware. But I do think creating some space that
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  Speaker 3: people talk about safe spaces, but I think being actually
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  Speaker 3: intentional about creating curating spaces that can hold all of
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  Speaker 3: a particular population's experiences. And so, you know, as the
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  Speaker 3: example I was talking about, you know, like I have
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  Speaker 3: all these black women that I work with who it's
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  Speaker 3: not that they won't go on other retreats or participate
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  Speaker 3: in other women's groups, but there is a piece of
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  Speaker 3: their experience that is not front and center. And so
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  Speaker 3: I think that that's and I think that's not just
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  Speaker 3: unique to black women. You know, I think about it
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  Speaker 3: actually quite a bit lately for men as an example,
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  Speaker 3: in there are some unique things to that experience that
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  Speaker 3: in a group that is most likely going to be
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  Speaker 3: more heavily women, just because of the way that we
• 13:08
  Speaker 3: kind of attract people to groups and retreats that can
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  Speaker 3: men find the safety to express their full experiences and
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  Speaker 3: be supported in that. And that's really where I kind
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  Speaker 3: of came from. So I think that from a clinician
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  Speaker 3: facilitator perspective, it's really thinking about also like where is
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  Speaker 3: your what sort of your special gift or your passion
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  Speaker 3: and then kind of deciding and for me at that
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  Speaker 3: moment in this time, it's like, well, this is kind
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  Speaker 3: of what I want to be able to do. There's
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  Speaker 3: something very particular happening I think for black women, particularly
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  Speaker 3: for professional black women, right now, that there isn't a
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  Speaker 3: place to go and then build the social community that
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  Speaker 3: they need to feel cared for over the long haul.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: I will say in my experience of doing you know, weekends,
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  Speaker 2: people always say, are you going to do a co
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  Speaker 2: ed daring greatly? And I'm not. And I've done them
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  Speaker 2: for men and I've done them for women, And I
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  Speaker 2: ask folks, what do you think if you know men
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  Speaker 2: were here, And each one of them said absolutely not,
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  Speaker 2: And again not because they don't love men or appreciate men,
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  Speaker 2: but they would have it would have changed their experience
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  Speaker 2: and they would have limited their vulnerability. And I'm sure
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  Speaker 2: that you're all about vulnerability on these weekends.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, you know it really I always it's one of
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  Speaker 3: the first things I say, you know, on the first
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  Speaker 3: day of retreat is really being intentional about thanking people
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  Speaker 3: and acknowledging there's vulnerability in just showing up. It just
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  Speaker 3: registered like coming into a space with a bunch of
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  Speaker 3: people you don't know where the intention is in fact
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  Speaker 3: to be vulnerable. It is to share parts of yourself
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  Speaker 3: that you are not sharing in other relationships or in
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  Speaker 3: other areas of your life. That's a huge ask. And
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  Speaker 3: so I do think that you know, as somebody who's
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  Speaker 3: facilitating a holding that space, I have to really think
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  Speaker 3: about that. What are we working on? And then how
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  Speaker 3: do I curate a space that makes that a safe
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  Speaker 3: environment for everyone who shows up? And sometimes it is
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  Speaker 3: just very specific to demographics.
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  Speaker 2: Absolutely, So what sort of skills do you think are
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  Speaker 2: really essential for creating that safety? How do you do that?
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  Speaker 2: I mean the container we talk about, how do you
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  Speaker 2: do that? Right away?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I think some of us have a
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  Speaker 3: gift for it. I think it's important to just sort
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  Speaker 3: of like name that, like I love that for you,
• 15:44
  Speaker 3: and I mean I know you to like, I think
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  Speaker 3: you have a gift for holding space when you do
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  Speaker 3: daring what like there is a piece of it that
• 15:51
  Speaker 3: is I don't say it's like magic, but we all
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  Speaker 3: know where we have that. And I think it's useful
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  Speaker 3: to name so for people, you know, if you are
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  Speaker 3: a clinician and you're thinking maybe i'll run groups, maybe
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  Speaker 3: I'll like check in to make sure first of all
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  Speaker 3: that that even just feels like something that you could do,
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  Speaker 3: and then there I do think there are obviously some
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  Speaker 3: like very specific skills, and I think one of them
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  Speaker 3: is I love Prea. Parker's book The Art of Gathering,
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  Speaker 3: But in there, one of the first things she talks
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  Speaker 3: about is like creating the space right around a particular intention.
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  Speaker 3: Also to term like is partially based on how who
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  Speaker 3: we invite like, And so I think a comfort level
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  Speaker 3: in including and excluding and kind of being clear about
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  Speaker 3: what that car like being able to get very clear.
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  Speaker 3: And I don't know that all of us that that's
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  Speaker 3: a skill that we can develop to really be clear,
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  Speaker 3: Like if my intention for the retreat at the end
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  Speaker 3: is X, then what are the criteria on the front
• 16:54
  Speaker 3: end about like who attends, what kind of therapy experience
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  Speaker 3: they have to have? So I think having clear criteria
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  Speaker 3: at the beginning is really an important skill that doesn't
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  Speaker 3: always happen. Sometimes it's just kind of like, oh, let's
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  Speaker 3: do you know, it's a wellness thing, and that's fine,
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  Speaker 3: but if we're doing some sort of therapeutic deep to
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  Speaker 3: emotional work, we need to be more specific. So I
• 17:18
  Speaker 3: think creating some really specific criteria around that is important.
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  Speaker 3: I think an attention to actual set and setting. Partially
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  Speaker 3: I love those things, but I am big on like
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  Speaker 3: and there's research to support it. Like the space that
• 17:35
  Speaker 3: you're in, what does it feel like when you're there?
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  Speaker 2: Are we in like.
• 17:40
  Speaker 3: A windowless hotel conference room or are we on an
• 17:44
  Speaker 3: expansive horse of state with you know, lots of trees
• 17:48
  Speaker 3: and windows and opportunity to sit outside in the grass.
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  Speaker 3: And because the environment also influences what the experience is
• 17:56
  Speaker 3: going to be like, not just from a standpoint of
• 17:59
  Speaker 3: like I just want luxury, but from the standpoint of again,
• 18:02
  Speaker 3: what are we facilitating. If we're talking about rest and
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  Speaker 3: can self compassion, then does the space itself and the
• 18:10
  Speaker 3: smaller details facilitate that experience for people? Recognizing that sometimes
• 18:16
  Speaker 3: it's hard for people to get there anyway, If you
• 18:19
  Speaker 3: are most of the people I work are busy. They
• 18:22
  Speaker 3: are constantly making decisions, their phone is never off, they're
• 18:25
  Speaker 3: never not checking emails. I need to facilitate an actual
• 18:29
  Speaker 3: environment that says you don't have to think about what
• 18:33
  Speaker 3: we're going to eat, you don't have to think about
• 18:35
  Speaker 3: what you can put your phone down, you can go sit,
• 18:38
  Speaker 3: you can go do nothing. And then I think, you know,
• 18:42
  Speaker 3: really just I think an intentionality around what is it
• 18:45
  Speaker 3: that you're trying to give people is to me one
• 18:49
  Speaker 3: of the most important factors.
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: And I'm curious during the compassion Collective weekends, how much
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: sort of movement or nature you end and you know,
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: does that then I'm thinking you do breathwork? Is there yoga?
• 19:06
  Speaker 3: So I I'm not a yoga instructor, so there's not
• 19:10
  Speaker 3: always yoga, although I do. I am a meditation teacher,
• 19:14
  Speaker 3: so most days I will offer yoga nidra, but by
• 19:18
  Speaker 3: the time we get to the end of the day,
• 19:20
  Speaker 3: nobody wants like everyone's like, sure, can I get a
• 19:23
  Speaker 3: recording that I can take back to bed, Like I
• 19:25
  Speaker 3: want to go lad day, like I'm tired, But I
• 19:27
  Speaker 3: do I encourage. I create a schedule that leaves a
• 19:32
  Speaker 3: lot of space, so there is always morning meditation, but
• 19:36
  Speaker 3: usually we try to start a little bit later. So
• 19:38
  Speaker 3: like people who just want a quiet walk, I always
• 19:41
  Speaker 3: pick properties where you can go walk, go outside, go
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: for a long walk, go for a hike. Then we'll
• 19:48
  Speaker 3: do meditation. I will typically if if I'm not bringing
• 19:51
  Speaker 3: someone in to actually do yoga and like a very
• 19:56
  Speaker 3: structured kind of movement, then we will do a lot
• 19:58
  Speaker 3: of things where I'm like, okay, well, sessions outside even
• 20:01
  Speaker 3: in the winter, I'm like, let's go, let's let's go
• 20:05
  Speaker 3: sit out in the snow. And then I've come to
• 20:09
  Speaker 3: incorporate a variety of other things that have either been
• 20:13
  Speaker 3: meaningful to me on retreats that I've gone to or
• 20:16
  Speaker 3: that I found. I tried it once and it really
• 20:18
  Speaker 3: worked well. So, like one good example is there is
• 20:21
  Speaker 3: almost always a fire ritual, So even in places where
• 20:26
  Speaker 3: there's not already a fireplace or a fire pit, I
• 20:28
  Speaker 3: have gotten very good at figuring out how to create that.
• 20:32
  Speaker 3: And so again we're outside, we're burning like. But I
• 20:35
  Speaker 3: think having some finding some flow around both movement and
• 20:40
  Speaker 3: nature is really, to me an important aspect of the process.
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I don't know about you, but the longer
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: I practiced, the more I really questioning this. Why we
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: sit across from each other in a chair and don't
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: move for forty five or fifty minutes. It's just feeling
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: like the body is so much a part of all
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: of the work.
• 21:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I love that. I think that's such a useful
• 21:03
  Speaker 3: question for us to I'll be asking just generally in
• 21:06
  Speaker 3: our day to day work. You know, I have a
• 21:09
  Speaker 3: couple of clients where periodically we'll do walking sessions. Uh huh,
• 21:14
  Speaker 3: you know, we'll meet and we'll you know, I'll meet
• 21:16
  Speaker 3: them at you know, some part like and just walk
• 21:19
  Speaker 3: and talk. And how different that experience is, or even
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: having one of the joys of you know, meeting virtually
• 21:25
  Speaker 3: is being like, go sit on your balcony, go sit
• 21:28
  Speaker 3: on your deck, right like you can be in nature
• 21:31
  Speaker 3: while we do this, and how different sometimes the work becomes.
• 21:35
  Speaker 3: And so it definitely is a big part of what
• 21:37
  Speaker 3: I try to do on retreats as well.
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: So last thing is what's your dream and your vision
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: for the future of compassion collective retreats and then sort
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: of communal care in general.
• 21:50
  Speaker 3: You know, I find myself incredibly inspired by devoted to
• 21:56
  Speaker 3: this idea of communal care and how do you weave
• 22:01
  Speaker 3: that into the work that we do as therapists and
• 22:03
  Speaker 3: a really in a more permanent way, you know, I
• 22:07
  Speaker 3: hear a lot of more people talking about being in community,
• 22:10
  Speaker 3: but like, how do we actually build that into our structure?
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: So I think about this a lot, specifically for the
• 22:16
  Speaker 3: Compassion Collective retreats. I really want to grow not only
• 22:20
  Speaker 3: the retreats, which you know, a five day retreat takes
• 22:24
  Speaker 3: me quite a bit of time and energy to prep,
• 22:26
  Speaker 3: but to move to a place where we're also doing
• 22:29
  Speaker 3: some one day workshops and other so that it is
• 22:33
  Speaker 3: an evolving and growing place of communal care, so that
• 22:38
  Speaker 3: eventually even people who may not be able to go
• 22:40
  Speaker 3: and retreat, let's say this year, have some opportunities to
• 22:43
  Speaker 3: begin to engage with the community and feel held there.
• 22:46
  Speaker 3: I think my longer term dream that I keep thinking
• 22:49
  Speaker 3: about is, you know, going back to the need for
• 22:52
  Speaker 3: spaces for different people to show up, is does this
• 22:56
  Speaker 3: evolve at some point to including other kinds of retreats,
• 23:00
  Speaker 3: retreats for couples, retreats for men, you know, retreats for
• 23:05
  Speaker 3: therapists and physicians. Like I think all of us are
• 23:09
  Speaker 3: in need of a place that kind of holds us
• 23:11
  Speaker 3: with compassion and cultivates our self compassion. And so just
• 23:15
  Speaker 3: thinking a lot about how I can kind of grow
• 23:17
  Speaker 3: and evolve to make more and more spaces and learning
• 23:22
  Speaker 3: that I can create a container and then it becomes
• 23:25
  Speaker 3: self sustaining. Not really that I have to like hold
• 23:29
  Speaker 3: all of it, but can I invite people in and
• 23:32
  Speaker 3: let other people then find their way forward to you know,
• 23:35
  Speaker 3: make it a sustaining connection and community.
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: I have no doubt that you will be able to
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: do all of those things. So Esther, thank you so
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: much for being here today. It was fun to interview
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: you in a more professional way. I think we I
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: sort of interview all when we get together. We're just
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: real intense and so this was this was fun. So
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: thank you to Esther Boykin again. You can follow her
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: on Instagram and go to Esterboykin dot com. And my
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: name is Brooke Braylove and I'm signing off as the
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: guest host for The Trauma Therapist. Thanks so much, thank you,