Latest / The You Project / #1801 The Biology of Happiness - Dr. Bill Sullivan

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#1801 The Biology of Happiness - Dr. Bill Sullivan · The You Project

0:00
Speaker 1: I'll get a team. Welcome to another installming the show.
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Speaker 1: Craig Anthony Harper, Bill Roger, John Brian Sullivan and Tiffany
0:08
Speaker 1: and Margaret Cook Ki TIV.
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Speaker 2: That's a new name. You've never pulled Roger out into
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Speaker 2: the middle name for thora before.
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Speaker 1: No, No, we just do you know. When I was
0:20
Speaker 1: growing up, my dad told me as a child, and
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Speaker 1: I believed it till I was about sixteen that his
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Speaker 1: actual name was Ronald Edward Persualarence Terrence, James Ambrose, Allowish
0:29
Speaker 1: has Harper, and I thought that was and I don't
0:34
Speaker 1: know why, but he told me that I believe that.
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Speaker 1: So I like a lot of middle names.
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Speaker 2: You just roll them off the towngue. They just roll off.
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Speaker 2: It makes my ant feel very insignificant.
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Speaker 1: Let's say hello to doctor Bill, because I want to
0:50
Speaker 1: talk to you about one more thing. But we can't
0:52
Speaker 1: ignore the most important, the person that we're actually here for,
0:56
Speaker 1: who I might say, I've really thrown under the bus
0:59
Speaker 1: today because he came with an idea and you and
1:01
Speaker 1: I went and then and then he went, well, what
1:06
Speaker 1: do you want to talk about? And I went, ouck,
1:08
Speaker 1: I don't know, hi.
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Speaker 3: Doc, Hello, is this thing on am I here.
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Speaker 1: All right, dude, what matter? Lucky? We'll say you so much?
1:19
Speaker 3: Bill.
1:20
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll tell you what today will double it. Yeah,
1:25
Speaker 1: welcome to the rabble, Welcome to the fucking intellectual mayhem
1:30
Speaker 1: that is the U Project. How have you been?
1:34
Speaker 3: Who mean you're talking to me?
1:36
Speaker 2: You?
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Speaker 3: I've been great. I'm apparently doing a lot better than
1:42
Speaker 3: someone who's trying desperately to finish up their thesis.
1:45
Speaker 1: Oah, yeah, that is true. As we record, it's eleven
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Speaker 1: forty four. I've got a meeting with my supervisor at
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Speaker 1: twelve thirty, which I'm ill prepared for. You know that
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Speaker 1: you remer man?
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Speaker 3: Are you prepared for anything today? Well?
2:02
Speaker 1: I know, I think I've got too much shit on.
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Speaker 3: I think i'm for real, for real, good luck with
2:09
Speaker 3: finishing up your thesis and meeting with your supervisor. For
2:12
Speaker 3: those who haven't been through this terrible ordeal, it's it's
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Speaker 3: hell man, It's really tough, and I you know, I
2:21
Speaker 3: sympathize with you, and I wish that you can somehow
2:25
Speaker 3: muster up the energy to get across the finish line.
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Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I'm no spring chicken. Speaking of spring chickens,
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Speaker 1: just quickly, if I showed one of my friends. You
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Speaker 1: interviewing your one hundred and one year old granddad. I've
2:41
Speaker 1: got to say, I love him. He is so amazing,
2:45
Speaker 1: isn't he lovable?
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Speaker 2: Isn't he? I'm so proud. I'm so proud, and I
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Speaker 2: feel so grateful to have been able to capture.
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Speaker 1: That as I was watching that exactly that. So tell
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Speaker 1: doctor Bill what you where you were the last week
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Speaker 1: and what you did, because I think this is a
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Speaker 1: really interesting story from a genetics point of view and
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Speaker 1: a bunch of other reasons. Yeah.
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Speaker 2: So, doctor Bill, I'm from Tazzy and every year I
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Speaker 2: go home, but the last few years, since my pop
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Speaker 2: turned ninety nine, I started going home in February for
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Speaker 2: his birthday instead of Christmas. And so this year I
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Speaker 2: decided to take my podcasting gear and capture a conversation
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Speaker 2: with him after his one hundred and first birthday. And
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Speaker 2: he's amazing, Like, he is so amazing, and I just
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Speaker 2: feel really grateful, and I'm excited because all of the
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Speaker 2: family are so excited, and every time I put a
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Speaker 2: clip up, they're like, that is so great, like and
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Speaker 2: it's just so much meaning behind it.
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Speaker 3: No, that is awesome. That's an incredible age to reach.
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Speaker 3: I hope we're all that lucky, and it's really wonderful
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Speaker 3: that you can have those special times together. I'd love
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Speaker 3: to hear that discussion.
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Speaker 2: Actually, yeah, I got to editing.
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Speaker 3: There's so much wisdom that people who reach that age
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Speaker 3: can impart to us younger people so that we can
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Speaker 3: maybe improve the quality of our lives.
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Speaker 2: When I was preparing to set it up, I thought
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Speaker 2: to myself, how do I gauge like what it was like?
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Speaker 2: And I did a search on when TV reached Australia,
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Speaker 2: When Australia got TV, and my prop was thirty two
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Speaker 2: years old. His first thirty two years were sans television,
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Speaker 2: and you just go, wow, that's and look at how
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Speaker 2: much life has changed now. And now I'm sitting down
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Speaker 2: with him to have a podcast that you know, thousands
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Speaker 2: of people will be able to listen to whenever they want.
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Speaker 3: What a weird thing that is? That is very weird.
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Speaker 3: I mean, you go back one hundred years and I
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Speaker 3: think radio was just becoming a thing, and here he
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Speaker 3: is on this this futuristic form of radio caled podcasts
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Speaker 3: that no one could ever imagined. You know, my kids
5:03
Speaker 3: were born into that era. So they don't know life
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Speaker 3: without Netflix much less. They don't actually know what TV
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Speaker 3: is anymore either. How weird is that it comes full
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Speaker 3: circle like that. You know, they watch everything on their
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Speaker 3: phone screens or their iPads or computers, right, so like
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Speaker 3: watching something on TV is a little weird to them.
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Speaker 3: It's old fashioned.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, they've never had to get up to change the channel.
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Speaker 3: So check that out, Craig. And like, one generation we've
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Speaker 3: gone without TV with TV and now we're kind of,
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Speaker 3: you know, a different type of way we ingest media
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Speaker 3: and entertainment these days. Really, we won't be long before
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Speaker 3: we just kind of like, you know, put a chip
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Speaker 3: into the hard drive that's in our brain or something
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Speaker 3: to download the material.
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Speaker 1: I think that's already happened. It's called neurallink. But that's
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Speaker 1: terrifying as well. But what I love about your granddad is,
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Speaker 1: you know, twenty four, nineteen twenty four, like I mean,
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Speaker 1: five years after the First World War and way before
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Speaker 1: the Second World War. So by the time the Second
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Speaker 1: World War started he was fifteen. I mean, the Second
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Speaker 1: World War was a million years ago, seemingly. And yeah,
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Speaker 1: you're right, like the evolution, I mean, think of the
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Speaker 1: amount of changes, technological and other that have happened since
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Speaker 1: he was born. It's crazy.
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Speaker 2: Well, I asked him about high school and he said, oh,
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Speaker 2: you had to be privileged to go to high school.
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Speaker 2: I mean it was twelve to fourteen miles away, Like,
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Speaker 2: how do you get there? And I was like, oh,
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Speaker 2: on the school bus. Oh they weren't buses.
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Speaker 1: Yeah. I remember him saying that, and I thought that's
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Speaker 1: He's like, yeah, exactly, it's twelve to forty miles and
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Speaker 1: well that's over twenty k's and then he's like, and
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Speaker 1: that's all well and good, but how do you get there? Exactly?
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Speaker 1: It's like, because it's not what are you going to
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Speaker 1: walk twenty eight miles a day?
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Speaker 2: And some of the friends he walks to school with
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Speaker 2: they didn't have shoes, so that other boys would take
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Speaker 2: their shoes off so they would all walk with no shoes.
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Speaker 2: Like that gives me goosebumps thinking about that no shoes.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, he's What you've also done is you've created
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Speaker 1: a little time capsule that like your your family, they
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Speaker 1: can go back and listen to that forever, and so
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Speaker 1: can you. You know, and let's hope you do another
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Speaker 1: one next year when he's one hundred and two. But
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Speaker 1: you know what I was thinking, I hope Ron's not listening.
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Speaker 1: But my dad, Ron's eighty five, and I reckon, your
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Speaker 1: granddad's a little bit sharper than Ron, and he's one
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Speaker 1: hundred and one, so sharp, like there is other than
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Speaker 1: the fact that he talks gently and a little bit slower,
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Speaker 1: but not definitely.
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Speaker 2: Not that's just tasmy It's just.
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Speaker 1: That's indicative of the geographical kind of requirements. But that
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Speaker 1: I was going to say, motherfucker, that would be inappropriate.
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Speaker 1: But that motherfucker is switched on, like there's no cognitive
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Speaker 1: decline or very little. I mean, he seems straight up normal.
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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, and funny, yeah yeah yeah.
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Speaker 1: So what does that mean for Tiff moving forward? Doc,
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Speaker 1: do you reckon, all things being equal, she might get old?
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Speaker 3: Well, I would hope. So, I mean, you certainly got
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Speaker 3: the genetic potential there that you know, if there is
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Speaker 3: a genetic component to old age, and I'm sure that
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Speaker 3: there is at least to a certain degree, then yeah, Nati,
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Speaker 3: Tiff has that potential for those longevity genes. You know,
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Speaker 3: just maybe don't do anything that might put you in
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Speaker 3: harm's way, like boxing or something like that.
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Speaker 1: Or riding or riding motorbikes for completing a thesis.
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Speaker 2: No chance.
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Speaker 1: But anyway, if anything's going to aid you, it's a PhD.
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Speaker 1: When you get accepted, you're like, whooo, look at me.
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Speaker 1: And then then you get in and you're like, oh,
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Speaker 1: what have I done? This is horrible? Oh what am
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Speaker 1: I doing? The dumbest thing you can do is tell
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Speaker 1: everyone in the world what you're doing.
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Speaker 3: That's like before and after pictures in every thesis. You
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Speaker 3: know what you look like before you started and what
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Speaker 3: you look like after. Always than by anyone who wants
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Speaker 3: to go through that gauntlet.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, when people look at me and they're like, as
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Speaker 1: your PhD, I'll go, well, have a look at me.
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Speaker 1: I'm only twenty nine. They're like, okay, so it's hard.
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Speaker 1: I in the middle of the rabble, we decided we
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Speaker 1: might talk about but we might talk about the biology
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Speaker 1: of happiness, if that's a if that's a thing, and
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Speaker 1: or the influence of genetics and our biology on maybe
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Speaker 1: more broadly, just emotions and feelings in general. Doc I
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Speaker 1: was saying a tiff yesterday. There are not many times,
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Speaker 1: but sometimes when I have a day where I feel
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Speaker 1: really flat and or a bit sad or not often
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Speaker 1: maybe two or three days a year, but where there's
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Speaker 1: no apparent reason. It's not like something happened and I'm
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Speaker 1: thinking about that thing and now I'm sad. But is
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Speaker 1: that tied in perhaps to just something that's going on
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Speaker 1: in my body.
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Speaker 3: Absolutely, I mean, all the feelings and sensations that we
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Speaker 3: experience are biochemistry based, So it's all based in our
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Speaker 3: brain chemistry, and there's evolutionary reasons for this. So it's always,
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Speaker 3: I think, useful to have a discussion about happiness or
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Speaker 3: its counterpart sadness in the context of what these feelings
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Speaker 3: truly are from a biological perspective. We experience them subjectively,
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Speaker 3: I feel happy or you know, I feel melancholy and
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Speaker 3: don't maybe sometimes you don't know why, but we know
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Speaker 3: that it's a biochemical reaction because it can be manipulated.
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Speaker 3: You know, you can artificially induce happiness through various drugs.
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Speaker 3: You can artificially induce or alleviate depression through either certain
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Speaker 3: substances or medication, respectively. So we have to appreciate that
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Speaker 3: this is a biological a biochemical reaction in the brain,
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Speaker 3: and what's happening is that these chemicals are binding to
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Speaker 3: certain receptors on our brain cells, and they are kind
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Speaker 3: of creating this feedback loop that gives us a subjective experience.
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Speaker 3: And the reason for all of that is so that
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Speaker 3: our bodies can discern things about our environment, or so
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Speaker 3: we can remember experiences we just had had as either
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Speaker 3: pleasurable something we might want to repeat or painful something
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Speaker 3: we want to avoid. So there's an evolutionary basis for
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Speaker 3: why we experience happiness, sadness, and all the other emotions
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Speaker 3: that are subjective in nature. You know, there's a tangible
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Speaker 3: biological reason for them. So why why would our bodies
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Speaker 3: be designed to be sad? You can think of a
12:26
Speaker 3: variety of reasons, but it's basically a warning signal not
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Speaker 3: to repeat that behavior or eat that food, or you know,
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Speaker 3: say that thing to someone. These are kind of warning
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Speaker 3: signs that this experience should not be repeated. It's not
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Speaker 3: advantageous for our survival or maybe our reproductive fitness, which
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Speaker 3: in biological terms means our chances of procuring a mate
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Speaker 3: and you know, reproducing our DNA. So that's what these
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Speaker 3: negative emotions are for. Positive ones are for the opposite
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Speaker 3: you know, if we do something that is biologically rewarding,
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Speaker 3: then we're going to feel a pleasurable sensation.
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Speaker 1: You know.
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Speaker 3: That's why sex is probably one of the most ultimate
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Speaker 3: pleasurable experiences the brain registers because at our core, our
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Speaker 3: biology wants us to reproduce, so we seek out sex
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Speaker 3: in order to do that, and we are rewarded, you know,
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Speaker 3: through brain chemistry that hey, DNA likes it when you're
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Speaker 3: trying to procreate, so we're going to reward you with
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Speaker 3: this fantastic experience called the orgasm. Same thing happens when
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Speaker 3: you eat something that has a lot of sugar, you know,
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Speaker 3: or fat. These were rare nutrients to come by back
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Speaker 3: in the day when we were evolving over you know,
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Speaker 3: tens of thousands of years, so our brain has built in,
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Speaker 3: hardwired an intense pleasurable response when sugar, salt, or fat
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Speaker 3: hits our tongue. It's actually maladaptive now, as we've discussed
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Speaker 3: several times on our show, because that same pleasurable experience
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Speaker 3: is tied to our brain. Even though these substances are
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Speaker 3: not scarce any longer, they're actually really easy to come by,
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Speaker 3: so we actually become obese and overeat because of that
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Speaker 3: pleasurable sensation that helped us evolve a long time ago.
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Speaker 3: So does that make sense where these positive and negative
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Speaker 3: emotions come from and what they mean?
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Speaker 1: Yeah? Completely, So Tiff, what that tells me is you
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Speaker 1: shouldn't come back from tasmania.
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Speaker 2: That's what my biology told me.
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Speaker 1: That's what your biology can. I throw you under the
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Speaker 1: bus and feel free to alive. You know, a little
14:57
Speaker 1: bit bottom lip, that a little bit flat, And I went,
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Speaker 1: what's gone on? And you went, I don't know, and
15:02
Speaker 1: you were kind of maybe had a fit, but like you,
15:04
Speaker 1: you just didn't feel great for no obvious reason. Right, Yeah,
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Speaker 1: what did you do? You have any revelations since then?
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Speaker 3: Oh?
15:14
Speaker 2: Not since then? But I think, you know, like listening
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Speaker 2: to Bill talk and discussions I've had with other people,
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Speaker 2: it's it's understanding when what the what leavers you need
15:24
Speaker 2: to pull in life when you haven't necessarily changed anything. So,
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Speaker 2: like I think one of the big leavers for me
15:30
Speaker 2: is almost forty two, and I don't recover the way
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Speaker 2: I used to do in training. So everything that I
15:38
Speaker 2: that has been great for me isn't working as well.
15:41
Speaker 2: So I've had to change things. So it's understanding what
15:44
Speaker 2: leavers do I need, what's the thing in my environment
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Speaker 2: that hasn't drastically changed that's now functioning differently to how
15:52
Speaker 2: it was. And the thing that clued me off is
15:55
Speaker 2: I got to tazzy and just like when I got
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Speaker 2: to the Himalayas, my heart resting heart rate immediately dropped
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Speaker 2: eight to ten beats a minute, and I went, there's
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Speaker 2: something in the way that I'm living my day today
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Speaker 2: that's not good for my nervous system and I need
16:10
Speaker 2: to figure that out. And so I guess that played
16:13
Speaker 2: on my mind. And then when I got back here,
16:15
Speaker 2: I had some out of my control chaos unfold the
16:19
Speaker 2: day or two before, so I had no resilience for that.
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Speaker 2: I've just felt like I have got no mind for
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Speaker 2: this right now and it was exhausting. And yeah, and.
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Speaker 1: You think that that's about like you said to me, Yeah,
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Speaker 1: your heart rate dropped like a ten beats and also
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Speaker 1: you slept phenomenally right. Yeah, whereas you over here, So
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Speaker 1: we're talking about Victoria and Tasmania, doctor Bill, So bottom
16:43
Speaker 1: of Australia. Where we are Victoria off the bottom of Australia,
16:47
Speaker 1: which is still part of Australia, which is Tasmania the island,
16:50
Speaker 1: so that's where tips from. But when you're there, it's
16:55
Speaker 1: like your body responds differently in that environment.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And I think maybe it's I've got a
17:02
Speaker 2: lot of isolation around me here that I have created,
17:06
Speaker 2: and I guess when I go home, there's all the
17:09
Speaker 2: old there's old friendships, there's family, there's connection, there's people around,
17:13
Speaker 2: there's peace and there's calm then And it was the
17:17
Speaker 2: same in India. I was with a group and there
17:20
Speaker 2: was a whole change of scenery and people in it
17:23
Speaker 2: with me, and I was like, that's one of the
17:25
Speaker 2: big things that highlights like no one in it with
17:28
Speaker 2: you in life like day to day. So yeah, it's
17:32
Speaker 2: interesting Stage checked.
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Speaker 1: Isn't it amazing, doctor Bill? How our biology responds to
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Speaker 1: different environments or different people, or different social settings, like
17:43
Speaker 1: literally heart rate up or down, blood pressure up or down,
17:46
Speaker 1: sleep better or worse, just because of where you are
17:50
Speaker 1: and perhaps who you're around.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's amazing, And it's one of the reasons why
17:56
Speaker 3: I think a lot of therapists and doctors will encourage
17:58
Speaker 3: people to journal experiences so that you can have a
18:03
Speaker 3: physical record of what sort of environments or what sort
18:07
Speaker 3: of experiences make you happy, sad or just met. You know,
18:12
Speaker 3: you want to leverage those happy experiences so that you
18:17
Speaker 3: can repeat them again or maybe even all to your life,
18:20
Speaker 3: so that you can enrich your life with those experiences.
18:24
Speaker 3: So the specifics that Tiff mentioned are very interesting because
18:29
Speaker 3: it reminds me of two things that always come up
18:33
Speaker 3: in research on happiness. The first of which is the
18:37
Speaker 3: return home. There's something about home, and you know, assuming
18:42
Speaker 3: that it offers the secure environment that it does for
18:45
Speaker 3: many people, Obviously, if you've had a horrible home life,
18:48
Speaker 3: this is not going to be the same experience. But
18:51
Speaker 3: when you return home, you get these wonderful feelings of nostalgia,
18:55
Speaker 3: you get feelings of security, you get you know, these
18:58
Speaker 3: wonderful memories. Fully, they're wonderful of growing up without a
19:03
Speaker 3: care in the world, which is what most kids experience.
19:06
Speaker 3: You know, you don't have a job, you don't have
19:08
Speaker 3: to pay bills, all this kind of stuff is taken
19:10
Speaker 3: care of for you. That's a tremendous source of happiness,
19:15
Speaker 3: and it's something that we can tap into more regularly
19:18
Speaker 3: if we take a different perspective on life and if
19:22
Speaker 3: we realize that if we can build just enough shelter
19:27
Speaker 3: and acquire just enough of our basic needs, you know,
19:31
Speaker 3: the monetary means to provide food and safety, and you know,
19:37
Speaker 3: give us a little something to do, that's really all
19:41
Speaker 3: you need. Community is really important, and that's another reason
19:45
Speaker 3: why home and revisiting with friends is extremely important variable
19:50
Speaker 3: in the equation for happiness. Now, the other dimension you
19:54
Speaker 3: mentioned TIF is also equally important and comes up again
19:58
Speaker 3: time and time again and happiness research. And if I
20:00
Speaker 3: understood you correctly, the trip you had to India, was
20:04
Speaker 3: it India?
20:05
Speaker 2: Yeah?
20:06
Speaker 3: Yeah, that trip seems to have inspired a great sense
20:10
Speaker 3: of awe within you, and that experience of all and
20:15
Speaker 3: realizing that there is so much more to this world
20:19
Speaker 3: than our little lives is something that creates this immense
20:24
Speaker 3: pleasure in most people. And I think part of that
20:28
Speaker 3: pleasure relates to the fact that life is so much
20:32
Speaker 3: bigger than our day to day petty experiences, our little
20:37
Speaker 3: trials and tribulations. They seem to take a back seat
20:41
Speaker 3: when you're confronted with something that fills you with all,
20:45
Speaker 3: like being at the ocean, or climbing a mountain, or
20:50
Speaker 3: almost anything in nature can do that sort of thing,
20:53
Speaker 3: or even if you're about you're reading about these wonderful
20:56
Speaker 3: things that humans have done that can fill you with
21:01
Speaker 3: all as well. I mean, we're pretty remarkable species despite
21:04
Speaker 3: all of our flaws. You know, we were talking about
21:08
Speaker 3: your one hundred and one year old grandfather who has
21:14
Speaker 3: gone from an era where we didn't even have antibiotics, television,
21:20
Speaker 3: you know, cancer treatments and all these all these things
21:24
Speaker 3: that have improved the quality of life to a lifetime
21:27
Speaker 3: now which probably looks like a playground compared to some
21:32
Speaker 3: of the things he might have experience. My grandparents were
21:35
Speaker 3: the same way. I hear about what they had to
21:37
Speaker 3: endure as immigrants to the United States, coming here with
21:40
Speaker 3: virtually nothing you know, in their hands, not even being
21:46
Speaker 3: able to go to high school, much like your your
21:49
Speaker 3: your story there and the lives that they were able
21:52
Speaker 3: to build. If they could see what we live now,
21:56
Speaker 3: it would fill them with all. And I think that's
21:58
Speaker 3: why a lot of people, as we each tend to
22:01
Speaker 3: get happier and happier. So those two experiences, you know,
22:07
Speaker 3: this is probably going to benefit your listeners, Craig. If
22:10
Speaker 3: you can find community, whether that be at home or
22:14
Speaker 3: just with friends, and if you can find something an
22:18
Speaker 3: experience that will bring all or fill you with that sensation,
22:23
Speaker 3: you know, and give you perspective on life. Those are
22:25
Speaker 3: two drivers of happiness that come up again and again
22:28
Speaker 3: in psychological surveys.
22:31
Speaker 1: You know, what's interesting that that was all interesting? What
22:35
Speaker 1: else though we were? I don't know if you and
22:37
Speaker 1: I talked about it on our last chat or before
22:40
Speaker 1: or maybe, but this idea of interpersonal neurobiology, the way
22:46
Speaker 1: that the impact that other people have just you know,
22:49
Speaker 1: it's like being near somebody could turn out or basically
22:56
Speaker 1: trigger your parasympathetic nervous system because you love being around them.
23:00
Speaker 1: They put you at ease, They relieve anxiety for you,
23:02
Speaker 1: they make you calm, you feel loved and safe. Or
23:07
Speaker 1: the same individual being around another person who doesn't necessarily
23:11
Speaker 1: do anything to them, not hurt them, not talk to them,
23:15
Speaker 1: but just being near them could create the opposite response.
23:19
Speaker 1: And it's this impact that you know. I was coaching
23:23
Speaker 1: a lady recently and she was talking about how she
23:26
Speaker 1: gets anxiety just seeing her boss. He doesn't even have
23:31
Speaker 1: to do anything or talk, and she sits in her
23:34
Speaker 1: car in the car park before work just to do
23:37
Speaker 1: some box breathing to try to get everything in check.
23:42
Speaker 1: And she says, when I feel it's like as the
23:44
Speaker 1: elevator goes up, my blood pressure goes up. And I'm
23:47
Speaker 1: like wow, And she goes, And the days like sometimes
23:50
Speaker 1: he's into state, she goes, none of that happens. I'm like, wow,
23:55
Speaker 1: isn't that interesting? The way that that how you expect
24:00
Speaker 1: aperience another person can change your biology drastically.
24:05
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a really great point too. And our connections
24:09
Speaker 3: with other people, whether they be family, friends, employers, and
24:14
Speaker 3: so on, can really have a dramatic impact for better
24:17
Speaker 3: or worse.
24:18
Speaker 1: Yeah.
24:19
Speaker 3: Now, what I've found is that you can certainly incorporate
24:24
Speaker 3: more of the positive moments in your life. If there
24:27
Speaker 3: are people in your life who bring you joy, certain
24:30
Speaker 3: family member, a friend, what have you, Craig Harper, whatever,
24:34
Speaker 3: be with that person more. You know, create more moments
24:37
Speaker 3: and opportunities in your life to be with the people
24:40
Speaker 3: who make you happy. And on the flip side, suppress
24:45
Speaker 3: the people or you know, don't engage with them. If
24:48
Speaker 3: you don't have to, just minimize the presence in your
24:51
Speaker 3: life of people who bring you down. You know, there's
24:54
Speaker 3: no obligation you have to hang out with certain people
24:59
Speaker 3: or to engage with them, So minimize it, you know,
25:01
Speaker 3: if they're not if they're not making it work for you.
25:05
Speaker 3: What I also found, and I don't mean to sound
25:09
Speaker 3: like I'm blaming the victim here, but this, this is
25:12
Speaker 3: a tried and true psychological technique. And you can you
25:15
Speaker 3: can interject if I'm wrong on this, Craig. But we
25:19
Speaker 3: have a lot more power than we think when it
25:23
Speaker 3: comes to the emotions that are generated from external things,
25:27
Speaker 3: whether it be a person or a situation. How that
25:32
Speaker 3: affects us is under our control. Okay, and this is
25:37
Speaker 3: really important. It's it's almost like an earth shattering revelation
25:41
Speaker 3: that many people just don't appreciate. Yeah, let's take your example,
25:46
Speaker 3: Craig or tif. You know the example you brought up.
25:50
Speaker 3: A boss or some other person is an antagonist in
25:54
Speaker 3: your life. You can't even think about them without a
25:58
Speaker 3: whole bunch of fiery emotions going off that that ruined
26:02
Speaker 3: your day. Whose fault is that? You could say it's
26:07
Speaker 3: your boss, yes, but he's an external person. The reality
26:12
Speaker 3: you create in your head is what you get your
26:16
Speaker 3: brain to decide. Okay, you get to you have the
26:18
Speaker 3: agency over how you are going to handle that person
26:23
Speaker 3: in your life. And if that person is creating emotions
26:28
Speaker 3: in you that are negative, you have a very empowering
26:33
Speaker 3: ability to change those emotions.
26:36
Speaker 1: You can.
26:37
Speaker 3: I'm not saying you you know, you don't experience it.
26:40
Speaker 3: I'm not trying to negate that that sensation. It happens.
26:45
Speaker 3: It's a biological reality. It's measurable, you know. But you
26:50
Speaker 3: can talk to your You can talk to yourself in
26:53
Speaker 3: a very positive way and in a very productive way
26:56
Speaker 3: to recognize the emotion and transform remit into something either
27:01
Speaker 3: neutral or positive. And you can radically change your state
27:06
Speaker 3: of happiness by that simple exercise.
27:10
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that. I actually put up a post
27:12
Speaker 1: the other day, three days ago in fact, which speaks
27:15
Speaker 1: to this, So the white on my Instagram, I wrote,
27:19
Speaker 1: the problem with the when you do this you make
27:22
Speaker 1: me feel that mindset is that you make me feel.
27:27
Speaker 1: Part of that statement as telling the world and yourself
27:29
Speaker 1: that someone else is in control of your feelings. And
27:34
Speaker 1: then I wrote, yes, some people are going to say
27:36
Speaker 1: and do nasty shit, even people who allegedly love us.
27:39
Speaker 1: Welcome to life. Fortunately, you and I wrisk. How you
27:42
Speaker 1: and I respond and react is optional. It's not easy,
27:46
Speaker 1: of course, but optional. And I think there's that I
27:50
Speaker 1: love what you said, you know, just that awareness that
27:53
Speaker 1: what's going on in me is an individual reaction to
27:57
Speaker 1: an inbound stimulus, you know, and this thing that's happened.
28:02
Speaker 1: It's like another silly example, but is I've been riding
28:09
Speaker 1: motorbikes forever. Tip rides motorbikes. Some people I'll put on
28:13
Speaker 1: the back and we'll go for a ride. It'll be
28:15
Speaker 1: the worst experience of their life. They'll be terrified, they're traumatized.
28:19
Speaker 1: They get back, they've got PTSD, not really, you know,
28:23
Speaker 1: but they hate it. Somebody else shall do the exact
28:26
Speaker 1: same thing, and they want to get straight back on
28:28
Speaker 1: and go somewhere else. It's like, it's not about the
28:32
Speaker 1: motorbike or the ride, it's about how you relate to that,
28:35
Speaker 1: what that means to you, how you feel around that.
28:38
Speaker 1: And this is not good or bad, and the same
28:40
Speaker 1: with you know, you make me feel. It's a very
28:43
Speaker 1: understandable mindset. But as you said, it's like, I think
28:47
Speaker 1: this is the that's a real self awareness kind of exploration.
28:53
Speaker 3: There exactly exactly, and it's really empowering to know that
28:58
Speaker 3: you have it within yourself to make that change. You
29:02
Speaker 3: can certainly recognize those emotions boiling up in you when
29:06
Speaker 3: that person pisses you off, You get angry, you get mad.
29:10
Speaker 3: But when that happens and you don't do something about
29:13
Speaker 3: it mentally, okay, talk yourself out of it. If you will,
29:18
Speaker 3: they win. You know, they got the best of you.
29:20
Speaker 3: They got into your head. And what I'm trying to
29:22
Speaker 3: do is get you to be an exorcist to those
29:25
Speaker 3: emotions that they put into you. You know, you have
29:29
Speaker 3: the ability to cast them out. And like you said,
29:33
Speaker 3: it is easier said than done. It takes a little
29:35
Speaker 3: bit of training, It takes a little bit of you know,
29:38
Speaker 3: practice to be able to control your emotions like that.
29:44
Speaker 3: But I tell you, once you master that ability, it
29:47
Speaker 3: will change your life.
29:49
Speaker 1: Yeah. And I think also in close proximity to that
29:55
Speaker 1: is the awareness that we create anxiety via our thoughts.
30:02
Speaker 1: You know, something happens and I go, oh my god,
30:04
Speaker 1: that's a stressful situation, and I get stressed, and TIFF's
30:08
Speaker 1: in the same situation, and Tiff goes, this is not
30:12
Speaker 1: a problem at all, and she's not stressed, like her
30:15
Speaker 1: body is calm. I'm elevated We're in the same situation,
30:20
Speaker 1: but we didn't have the same experience, and we didn't
30:23
Speaker 1: have the same outcome, not because of the event or
30:26
Speaker 1: the situation, but because of the individual reaction. And like
30:31
Speaker 1: trying to get people to understand the role that they
30:34
Speaker 1: play in their own anxiety. And I'm not saying anxiety
30:37
Speaker 1: is not real and it's not a battle. Of course,
30:39
Speaker 1: it's real and it's a battle, but understanding out the
30:43
Speaker 1: contribution we make to that.
30:46
Speaker 3: Absolutely. Yeah. I don't mean to trivialize anxiety either, and
30:51
Speaker 3: I'll give you a rather trivial example to compare to
30:54
Speaker 3: what some other people go through, But I think it's
30:56
Speaker 3: one that a lot of people can relate to. And
30:59
Speaker 3: that's public's speaking. Okay, I do this a lot. I
31:02
Speaker 3: get up in front of crowds quite a bit, talk
31:04
Speaker 3: about the book, talk about this and that. You know,
31:07
Speaker 3: go on these wonderful podcasts, and you know, it's natural
31:13
Speaker 3: to feel anxious about what's going to happen. Oh my gosh,
31:17
Speaker 3: Am I going to say something stupid? Are people going
31:19
Speaker 3: to hate me? Are people going to make fun of me?
31:21
Speaker 3: You know, you know, you can run through all these
31:24
Speaker 3: scenarios in your head and I used to have a
31:27
Speaker 3: problem with that. Every time, you know, like an hour
31:31
Speaker 3: or so before, my mind would just go crazy with
31:34
Speaker 3: all these possibilities, okay, these what ifs, and you have
31:40
Speaker 3: to learn to control that. And you can simply do
31:45
Speaker 3: it by shifting what your mind is thinking about. And again,
31:49
Speaker 3: with practice, this gets easier. But what I've come to
31:52
Speaker 3: do is appreciate that. First of all, you know, I
31:57
Speaker 3: remind myself that I trained for this, I practiced, I rehearsed,
32:02
Speaker 3: I've done this before. The audience is not going to
32:05
Speaker 3: be mean. They're not out to get me. Run through
32:08
Speaker 3: more positive thoughts. You know, maybe they're going to really
32:11
Speaker 3: appreciate what I say. Maybe what I say is going
32:13
Speaker 3: to make them think, these are some things that you
32:15
Speaker 3: can do instead of dwelling on all the negatives and
32:19
Speaker 3: my complete fail safe if all that fails is that
32:23
Speaker 3: I and everyone who is listening to me will be
32:27
Speaker 3: dead soon and none of this will matter. That works wonders.
32:32
Speaker 1: Except TIFF's granddad. He's going to be here in a
32:34
Speaker 1: hundred He'll remember everything that all bug is going nowhere.
32:41
Speaker 1: God bless him.
32:42
Speaker 3: That We'll put an asterisk by what I said, except
32:45
Speaker 3: for TIFF's granddad.
32:46
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it is. I was thinking when you were
32:50
Speaker 1: talking about essentially almost it sounds like the biology of
32:54
Speaker 1: belief a bit. It's like, what do you believe? I
32:58
Speaker 1: believe that's terrifying. Therefore I'm terrified. I believe that's funny,
33:03
Speaker 1: so I'm amused. I believe that's interesting, so I'm fascinated.
33:08
Speaker 1: I believe that's an opportunity to grow. So I'm fucking
33:10
Speaker 1: in boots and all. You know, I think there's these
33:14
Speaker 1: self limiting and empowering beliefs, but I think also, I
33:18
Speaker 1: don't know about you, but I've always to a degree
33:23
Speaker 1: felt like an impost or not good enough for you know,
33:27
Speaker 1: self doubt, self loathing, all of that stuff. But then
33:30
Speaker 1: as an older person being able to recognize that, oh,
33:35
Speaker 1: I can still feel these things, but also that doesn't
33:39
Speaker 1: need to control my behavior like I do over one
33:43
Speaker 1: hundred corporate gigs a year. I never before, I never
33:47
Speaker 1: think I'm amazing, They're going to fucking love me. I
33:50
Speaker 1: never think that. I don't think I'm going to crash
33:52
Speaker 1: and burn. But I'm always there's this low level anxiety.
33:57
Speaker 1: There's this awareness that this could go or not, you know,
34:01
Speaker 1: there's no arrogance in it. I don't. But I think
34:05
Speaker 1: for me, having that a little bit of self doubt
34:08
Speaker 1: keeps me focused. I don't know, that's just how I work. Well.
34:12
Speaker 3: That is the biological purpose of anxiety. It's to get
34:17
Speaker 3: us motivate us to prepare for something. Right, So if
34:22
Speaker 3: you're feeling anxious about an exam or you know, a
34:25
Speaker 3: public performance you have to do, or a date you're
34:29
Speaker 3: going on, that is just your body's way of saying,
34:33
Speaker 3: let's prepare for this. It's a motivator, yes, but it
34:37
Speaker 3: can certainly go out of control. And that's where this beneficial,
34:42
Speaker 3: you know, component to our biology can become maladaptive. And
34:47
Speaker 3: some people it's so bad they legitimately need medication to
34:50
Speaker 3: get those biochemicals under control. And that's that's perfectly fine.
34:55
Speaker 3: But I think you can make a lot of headway,
34:57
Speaker 3: you know, no pun intended. You can make a lot
34:59
Speaker 3: of difference just by retuning the inner monologue that you
35:06
Speaker 3: experience in your brain. You know, you can talk to
35:09
Speaker 3: yourself in a very different way and reframe the situation
35:14
Speaker 3: to get that anxiety to tick back down to a
35:17
Speaker 3: level where you know it's acceptable, and that it's driving
35:22
Speaker 3: you to do positive things rather than overdriving you to,
35:26
Speaker 3: you know, feel bad.
35:29
Speaker 1: Yeah, I made that little bit of self doubt and
35:32
Speaker 1: that I remember. I was talking to somebody about this
35:37
Speaker 1: the other day. This is a weird thing. I don't
35:38
Speaker 1: know what you think of this, but you know, most
35:41
Speaker 1: people want to Most people want to look good. That's
35:45
Speaker 1: not a bad thing, men and women. Most people want
35:47
Speaker 1: to look good. But I was when I was a kid,
35:53
Speaker 1: I didn't necessarily want to look good, as in be attractive,
35:57
Speaker 1: but I wanted to look This is going to sound
35:59
Speaker 1: I've never said this in two thousand episodes, but I
36:02
Speaker 1: wanted to look intimidating because I felt weak, like I
36:08
Speaker 1: felt insecure, and I felt weak, and I thought people knew,
36:13
Speaker 1: and I thought, fuck, if I could look intimidating, people
36:17
Speaker 1: won't know a week I am. And I thought, I
36:20
Speaker 1: wonder if there's a name for that. And I did
36:24
Speaker 1: some research here. It's called dominant signaling or social status
36:28
Speaker 1: assertion or aggressive aggressive posturing. You know, there's all this
36:33
Speaker 1: stuff in evolutionary psychology. And I'm like, oh, that's what
36:36
Speaker 1: I was. I mean, now I don't care, but I
36:39
Speaker 1: really cared that. It's like this fucking evolutionary driver that
36:44
Speaker 1: I looked scary or that I looked I mean, not
36:47
Speaker 1: that I wanted to do anything to anyone, but I
36:50
Speaker 1: was so insecure, and I thought I was so weak
36:53
Speaker 1: that there was this drive for me to I didn't
36:56
Speaker 1: necessarily care if I looked attractive. I just wanted to
36:59
Speaker 1: look intimidating because I felt the opposite of that. How
37:03
Speaker 1: funny is that.
37:04
Speaker 3: Well, I don't. I don't think it's funny at all.
37:07
Speaker 3: I mean, I think it's perfectly natural. You'd be weird
37:11
Speaker 3: if you weren't worried about your status, because that is
37:13
Speaker 3: another aspect of our biology that's been hardwired into us
37:18
Speaker 3: for for eons. You know, even non human primates struggle
37:23
Speaker 3: with status. We got the whole alpha male situation you
37:26
Speaker 3: know in non human primates and other species as well.
37:30
Speaker 3: This and it is downright funny when you put it
37:34
Speaker 3: into an evolutionary context. So all the things you described, Craig,
37:38
Speaker 3: and all the other similar experiences people have, all the
37:42
Speaker 3: struggles that we that we aim for in life. Okay,
37:46
Speaker 3: whether it be excelling intellectually in the classroom, or excelling
37:51
Speaker 3: at the gym, or looking intimidating. All these things that
37:56
Speaker 3: we try to dominate are evoluente lutionary ghosts, and I've
38:01
Speaker 3: talked about those before. The status game, if you will,
38:05
Speaker 3: is a trick that our biology plays on us so
38:10
Speaker 3: that we increase our odds of looking attractive for mates.
38:15
Speaker 3: That's the evolutionary psychology behind the whole thing. And when
38:19
Speaker 3: you put those behaviors, you know, imagine yourself as an
38:23
Speaker 3: alien visiting this planet and studying our species and watching
38:27
Speaker 3: us do these silly things, you know, working so hard
38:32
Speaker 3: to achieve these meaningless status games. You'd almost laugh yourself
38:39
Speaker 3: off the chair if you were watching it from the outside,
38:43
Speaker 3: you know, if you like, for just a quick example,
38:46
Speaker 3: you can watch like a documentary of apes or gorillas
38:50
Speaker 3: or something, and you watch them do these little status games,
38:55
Speaker 3: you know, play around, you know, bully other lower primates
38:59
Speaker 3: so that you have more mating opportunities than that one,
39:02
Speaker 3: or that you have more food than that one. You'd
39:04
Speaker 3: almost think, oh, this is really kind of silly. Why
39:07
Speaker 3: can't they just all, you know, come together and talk
39:11
Speaker 3: this out or get along. We have echoes of that
39:15
Speaker 3: in our own species. And this is what politics and
39:19
Speaker 3: global problems the whole root of all of that is
39:23
Speaker 3: a status gain, okay, and it doesn't need to exist
39:27
Speaker 3: in this world because we don't have the scarce resources
39:31
Speaker 3: that those evolutionary tools were designed to succumb to, design
39:36
Speaker 3: to overcome. So in a scarce or stressful environment, status
39:41
Speaker 3: can be critically important. In today's environment, we just pretend
39:46
Speaker 3: that it is. And if we can lose that illusion,
39:49
Speaker 3: we can make this world heaven on Earth, okay, because
39:54
Speaker 3: cooperation is also embedded deep within our genes. But we
39:58
Speaker 3: fool ourselves. We delude our self that competition and the
40:02
Speaker 3: alpha male is natural and the way we need to proceed.
40:06
Speaker 3: That may be true if resources were scarce, but they're
40:08
Speaker 3: not scarce anymore. They're just, you know, unequally divided. And
40:14
Speaker 3: if we came together as a species and lived more intelligently,
40:19
Speaker 3: the world would be a much better place. We don't
40:22
Speaker 3: have to live the way that evolution designed us to.
40:27
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so true. We don't live in that place
40:29
Speaker 1: or that time, all that kind of reality. Did you
40:32
Speaker 1: ever see did you see Chimp Empire doc? Which was a.
40:36
Speaker 3: Big yeah, Yeah, it was fantastic and I still to
40:42
Speaker 3: this day, I meant to check on this but how
40:45
Speaker 3: the hell did they film that? It was remarkable, and
40:49
Speaker 3: they put these stories together almost like a soap opera,
40:52
Speaker 3: you know, about what these chimps are going through. It's
40:55
Speaker 3: a wonderful documentary. I highly recommend it.
40:58
Speaker 1: Yeah, originally that some researchers in there who weren't filming.
41:02
Speaker 1: They were just researching, and then I think this is
41:06
Speaker 1: the story TIF you might know. But and then these
41:10
Speaker 1: doco makers wanted to film, and so they integrated into
41:14
Speaker 1: the research team. But the chimps were very, very familiar
41:20
Speaker 1: with humans, and as long as humans didn't they obviously
41:23
Speaker 1: couldn't have any food, they couldn't smell, like, they had
41:27
Speaker 1: to have no smell, no food, no sense, and basically
41:31
Speaker 1: they became The humans kind of became invisible to the
41:33
Speaker 1: chimps after a period of time, and so by the
41:36
Speaker 1: time they started filming, I think those researchers had already
41:41
Speaker 1: been embedded in the tribe or whatever for the best
41:45
Speaker 1: part of a decade. So I think that's how they
41:47
Speaker 1: got that up close. I mean, yeah, you're right, it
41:50
Speaker 1: was like they were right in the middle of everything.
41:54
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was incredible, you know, I was bewildered at
41:58
Speaker 3: some of the shots, But I was entranced by how
42:02
Speaker 3: human like so many of the behaviors that these chimps exhibited.
42:08
Speaker 3: It was striking, and I'm pretty familiar with them, you know,
42:12
Speaker 3: and it was still to see it on the screen
42:15
Speaker 3: like that just took it to a whole other level.
42:19
Speaker 3: You see all the emotions, you see all the politics,
42:22
Speaker 3: all the social games that we play, all in these chimps,
42:26
Speaker 3: And that's our history, Craig, that's our history. And we're
42:30
Speaker 3: still living like we're just a bunch of chimps with
42:33
Speaker 3: scarce resources in the forest. And we don't need to
42:36
Speaker 3: live that way anymore. We've conquered so much, we've come
42:39
Speaker 3: so far. We can just divide it up better and
42:44
Speaker 3: everyone would be better off for it. Because getting circling
42:47
Speaker 3: back to happiness, what study after study shows is that
42:52
Speaker 3: the more material things you accumulate, the more money you have,
42:56
Speaker 3: the more external rewards you have, it doesn't wait with
43:00
Speaker 3: a proportional rise in happiness.
43:03
Speaker 1: Yeah.
43:04
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's the converse of that. People who live relatively
43:09
Speaker 3: meek lives can still be incredibly happy. Monks who live
43:15
Speaker 3: on virtually nothing are some of the happiest people in
43:17
Speaker 3: the world. So happiness is a state of mind. And
43:22
Speaker 3: if we continue to fool ourselves and kill ourselves to
43:26
Speaker 3: get more money, to get more material things. Fancy your cars,
43:30
Speaker 3: fancy your jewelry, You're going down the wrong road, my friend.
43:34
Speaker 3: That's not going to bring you the contentment that you seek.
43:37
Speaker 3: It's not going to sustain happiness.
43:40
Speaker 1: Yeah, yep, yep. There's lots of theology and philosophy and
43:46
Speaker 1: psychology and research around that. So you're on the money.
43:51
Speaker 1: Uh tif, we hope you have, we hype you have
43:54
Speaker 1: a better day today.
43:56
Speaker 2: Picked up, it's picked up, already.
43:58
Speaker 1: Picked up a little bit. Like Doctor Bill's like Xanax
44:01
Speaker 1: with headphones.
44:02
Speaker 2: On, isn't he? He's like, no.
44:06
Speaker 1: What's the other one? What's the one that makes you
44:08
Speaker 1: feel good? Happy? Prozac? He's like, Prozac with specs.
44:13
Speaker 3: That's going to be my new that's my new tagline,
44:17
Speaker 3: Prozac with specs. Yeah, Prozac with specs. I don't know
44:22
Speaker 3: if a lot of Americans will realize spex means glasses.
44:25
Speaker 1: But that's okay, Oh really, you don't use that.
44:29
Speaker 3: It's not really my specs though. It's what I'm saying.
44:33
Speaker 3: I'm I'm verbal prozac.
44:36
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right. Yeah, You're like a soothing bomb to
44:39
Speaker 1: the anxiety of the written Australian. You're like a lotion
44:44
Speaker 1: we can just pour on people once a month. All right,
44:47
Speaker 1: enough with the metaphors, Doctor Bill. Where can people find
44:51
Speaker 1: you and follow you and connect with you and get
44:53
Speaker 1: some more soothing?
44:55
Speaker 3: You can always find what I'm up to my latest
44:58
Speaker 3: writing at all Bill Sullivan dot com. And quite a
45:02
Speaker 3: bit of what we talked about here is actually described
45:05
Speaker 3: in my book Please to Meet Me, Jeans, Germs and
45:07
Speaker 3: the curious forces that make us who we are. It's
45:10
Speaker 3: available wherever books are sold.
45:13
Speaker 1: Thank you, sir. We'll say goodbye TIF. Thank you, And
45:18
Speaker 1: I think you might need to sell a lot of
45:19
Speaker 1: your stuff, according to doctor Bill, including your motorbike. I'll
45:22
Speaker 1: take care of it so you can find some in
45:25
Speaker 1: a piece.
45:26
Speaker 2: I'm not going to call him doctor Prozac anymore. Then
45:29
Speaker 2: that doesn't make me happy.
45:32
Speaker 1: Thanks everyone.
45:33
Speaker 3: There's nothing I said that would imply that she has
45:36
Speaker 3: to give up things in order to increase her happiness.
45:40
Speaker 3: All I'm saying is that five motorbikes are not necessarily
45:44
Speaker 3: going to make Tiff five times as happy.
45:47
Speaker 2: Did you write that down, Harps? Did you write that
45:49
Speaker 2: particular piece of information.
45:51
Speaker 1: Now, I don't have five motorbikes.
45:55
Speaker 2: I think was the number bill for four make you happy?
45:59
Speaker 3: Yeah, four, You'll reach a certain plateau and anything after
46:02
Speaker 3: that just doesn't matter.
46:04
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm being bullied right now. Thanks everyone,